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BS: Blair and God...and Obama

03 Mar 06 - 08:51 PM (#1684682)
Subject: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,wordy

So, at last he's come out. Had I known he was another one of the religiously righteous he would never have got my vote at his first election. Now we know that we have a coalition of the religious leading the western world into war against the religious coalition of the east. God damn them all!


03 Mar 06 - 08:56 PM (#1684687)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Peace

Probably already has.


03 Mar 06 - 09:10 PM (#1684696)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: The Badger

Blair does not believe in God - he believes he is God - " Let there be shite and there was Shite"


03 Mar 06 - 09:15 PM (#1684700)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: The Badger

Will America come in and restore Democracy when our next elections are rigged by postal ballots?


03 Mar 06 - 09:26 PM (#1684707)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: John O'L

That will be just after their next election has been rigged by Diebold, I expect? Who will restore their democracy?


03 Mar 06 - 09:27 PM (#1684709)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: John O'L

Why, God, of course. Silly me.


03 Mar 06 - 09:42 PM (#1684719)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Sorcha

It will come back and bite us all.....


04 Mar 06 - 02:43 AM (#1684807)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Purple Foxx

Blair has never actually made a secret of his religious opinions.
Strange form of Christianity though
Nominally Anglican
But receives Mass in a Catholic church
But heavily influenced by U.S.Southern Baptists
But effortlessly capable of assimilating whatever "New Age" belief is fashionable with Cherie this week.
Some might see all of the above as being admirably Ecumenical.
I have to say it looks like so many unthought out knee jerk reactions from where I sit.
Unfortunately British foreign policy formulation seems to work on the same principle.


04 Mar 06 - 04:06 AM (#1684832)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: greg stephens

His religion does seem to be remarkably flexible. Something along the lines of "Well actually I'm quite a nice sort of guy, you know".


04 Mar 06 - 04:59 AM (#1684854)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Bunnahabhain

He has, at least, been open about his religion. It shows him to be insincere and illogical.

So not at all like his actions as PM then...


04 Mar 06 - 05:02 AM (#1684855)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Purple Foxx

Oh God,in whom I do not believe,please protect us from your followers
now and forevermore.
Amen


04 Mar 06 - 05:09 AM (#1684857)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Liz the Squeak

Heard a good one this week... Blair and Brown... two cheeks of the same arse.

LTS


04 Mar 06 - 05:30 AM (#1684870)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: akenaton

The final, final excuse for Iraq.....Blame God.

Blair like all the other believers in "God" as a supreme being is quite mad.

Does it not frighten the shit out of anyone that the whole world is controlled by these lunatics, with the power to destroy humanity..Ake


04 Mar 06 - 05:43 AM (#1684874)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2

When leaders start blathering on about god then you know you're in the shit up to your neck.


04 Mar 06 - 05:47 AM (#1684876)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: John MacKenzie

So now the all the Jihadis will know that what they always supected was true, this is an anti Moslem Christian Crusade, shades of Richard the Lionheart; who wants to be Blondel?
This I fear, will only intensify the hatred and the killing.
Giok


04 Mar 06 - 07:17 AM (#1684917)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Pied Piper

What really pisses me off is the fact that my taxes are being spent on "Faith" schools some of which indoctrinate children into believing in fairy tails over the truth supported by evidence.
This is no joke we must fight back against this persecution of reason.
Don't forget that people died not so long ago in this country fighting for the right not to have religion imposed upon them.
Lets face it these people are morally self-indulgent cowards who prefer their own mental comfort to facing up to reality.
We owe it to the people that won us our freedoms to oppose them by any means necessary.

PP


04 Mar 06 - 07:43 AM (#1684932)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: greg stephens

Isn't this indignation a bit manufactured? Of course Christians and Moslems believe they are answerable to God. This is not a surprise to anyone is it? So why pretend to be shocked or angry? It's not news, is it?


04 Mar 06 - 08:39 AM (#1684966)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Purple Foxx

No greg,it's not news.Yes believers believe what thy believe.
I am not shocked just frustrsted & disappointed that,yet again, faith takes precedence over reason.
Also wonder how it is that God's will & Blair's will always co-incide to the nth degree.


04 Mar 06 - 08:43 AM (#1684968)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,wordy

Greg, he kept his faith under wraps for the elections. Now having announced his retirement he tells us it was basic to his thinking and decisions. Many of us who see the havoc religion is causing again in the world would not have voted for him had we known.


04 Mar 06 - 08:48 AM (#1684971)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Purple Foxx

Agree with the point that religion is at very least a factor in our current problems but feel obliged to acknowledge that Blair has always been open about his faith.


04 Mar 06 - 11:58 AM (#1685070)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Tootler


04 Mar 06 - 04:52 PM (#1685225)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: McGrath of Harlow

Actually what he seemed to be saying (in Blairese) is that he believes that God is the ultimate judge he has to answer to for what he did to Iraq, and that seems fair enough. But, if I were him, I wouldn't feel too happy at that thought.

Outside the States I think you'd find that most people with any kind of religious commitment were opposed to that war.


04 Mar 06 - 05:23 PM (#1685237)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: JohnInKansas

Outside the States I think you'd find that most people with any kind of religious commitment were opposed to that war.

Don't underestimate them.

When the London subway was bombed, members of the "Phelps Congregation" were resident in London and picketed within 24 hours to proclaim that it's "God's wrath against the Fags," and that it was "too bad there weren't more killed." They say they're doing it "for God."

Fundies only a bit less loony seem pretty widely dispersed, and deeply embedded in politics where they're not being recognized for what they are.

John


04 Mar 06 - 06:21 PM (#1685276)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Georgiansilver

So I received an E-mail today....tell me what you think and if it is at all relevant.....copied from the E-mail:-
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?" (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives and being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"   
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.   
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.   
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.   
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."   
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says   
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.   
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing?   
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard it, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in or blame God for it.


04 Mar 06 - 06:51 PM (#1685284)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: greg stephens

Well Georgian Silver, God does indeed say "Thou shalt not kill" in the Bible. He also tells Moses to execute someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Which Moses, being a God-fearing man, dutifully does. he also instructs the Israelites not to eat chameleons or ferrets. He also kills three thousand people for dancing round the golden calf, but doesn't kill Aaron, who told the people to do it.
   Don't you think this stuff is perhaps better kept out of schools? Let's face it, it is rubbish, and more than that, it is pernicious rubbish. Of historical interest, of literary interest of course: but surely not of any moral interest?


04 Mar 06 - 10:55 PM (#1685360)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,dianavan

GeorgiaSilver, thats the first time I have ever heard God described as sad. Angry, loving and wrathful, but never sad. You'd think he would be above human emotion, period. I never think of the Goddess as sad. You can keep your sad, old God.


05 Mar 06 - 03:05 AM (#1685401)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Purple Foxx

"We"? "Our"? None of the specific points you raise apply to Blair's country GeorgianSilver.
Are we to infer that as well as being sad your God is a U.S. National?


05 Mar 06 - 07:27 AM (#1685484)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: akenaton

McGrath....What Blair said is not "fair enough", even in Blairese.

He left out of the equation the hundreds of thosands who have died because of his war. Do we feel it "fair enough" that their deaths should be reduced to only a factor in whether the blessed Tony enters the Kingdom of Heaven or not?

And what about the mutilated children who were the result of coalition air strikes on Iraqi cities and caused me many tears?

I dont think Tony has much to fear from a non-existant god, but more to fear from the wrath of a people whom he has stained in the eyes of the rest of the world, by the use of deceit....Ake


05 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM (#1685490)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Big Al Whittle

Blair is weird.

says much that he is the only person who seems able to get elected.

come to think of it - the democratic process turns up some real bummers. perhaps we are doing it wrong.


05 Mar 06 - 09:38 AM (#1685571)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,Pootle

"So I received an E-mail today....tell me what you think and if it is at all relevant....."

I think it's bollocks Georgiansilver. Well, you did ask.

From the email: "Are you laughing?". No, I feel more like crying actually at the thought that intelligent, modern human beings still believe this medieval nonsense.


05 Mar 06 - 12:47 PM (#1685700)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,Van

There are people who want Blair impeached. If he is now guided by the little voices in his head perhaps it would be quicker to have him sectioned.


05 Mar 06 - 01:54 PM (#1685743)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: McGrath of Harlow

thats the first time I have ever heard God described as sad. Angry, loving and wrathful, but never sad.

"Jesus wept" (John, Chapter 11)
.................................................

But once again, what Blair appears to have been saying was not, Bush style "God told me to do this" but rather "God is my judge for the things I have done" - which isn't quite the same thing.

Unfortunately there appears to be no ready mechanism by which ordinaery people can get shot of the man. Nor even fellow MPs or Labour Party members. That's what passes for democracy.   God help us.


05 Mar 06 - 03:04 PM (#1685794)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Big Al Whittle

he's never struck me as a happy bunny


05 Mar 06 - 03:13 PM (#1685803)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST

McGrath - Yes, Jesus wept but he was only the son of God, a real live human being.


05 Mar 06 - 05:35 PM (#1685934)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Michael

Having read this thread I'm scared!
Oh how I wish there was a god who could make it all right.

Mike


05 Mar 06 - 05:37 PM (#1685937)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Gervase

It's bad enough that Georgiansilver has an imaginary friend - it's truly scary that Blair has one.


05 Mar 06 - 06:38 PM (#1685970)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST

Guest... no he wasn't!


05 Mar 06 - 06:41 PM (#1685976)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: McGrath of Harlow

GUEST? Talking to yourself?


05 Mar 06 - 07:10 PM (#1685997)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST

Am I hearing voices?
maybe I'm Saint material!


05 Mar 06 - 07:18 PM (#1686004)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: akenaton

Saint Material??    never heard of her!!


05 Mar 06 - 07:59 PM (#1686030)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Big Al Whittle

I don't think its very nice calling GS's God an imaginary friend

to him its real, and so is the love he feels for him.

in the same way the love you feel for your children and wife is just as much an intangible.

give tolerance a chance.


05 Mar 06 - 11:09 PM (#1686155)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: robomatic

Blair:
An intriguing and highly intelligent leader, not afraid to get in there and fight for what he believes. He has consistently put a voice to the positions of Gt. Britian and the U.S. and been an important motivator and exponent of the position of the West far beyond the men and munitions that Gt. Britian has put into the Afghanistand and Iraqi Wars.
Talking about religion in public these days is like walking around in paper dress-suits. Takes some guts.
I think at heart people want to believe that if we're going to be shooting at people we've got a moral reason at center.


06 Mar 06 - 02:22 AM (#1686214)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Purple Foxx

1)Blair doesn't get in there and fight,he sends other people to do so.
2)If you think talking about religion requires guts, what about those who attempt to defend such limited secular spaces as we have at a time when religious fundamentalists think they are entitled to kill in "defence" of thier right to impose their views on others?


06 Mar 06 - 03:57 AM (#1686233)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Paul Burke

Furple Poxx, you don't "receive" Mass, you "hear" it, and if you're that way inclined, "take" Communion. Or at least you did in the 60s when I was involved.

How sould you possibly take exception to a politician who is so obviously sincere? I haven't come across a person so anxious to please since Uriah Heep.


06 Mar 06 - 04:27 AM (#1686250)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Purple Foxx

In my Anglican youth Communion could be taken or received.
I ought not have transferred that terminology.
Perverse as it sounds, I don't particularly take exception to Blair, I just think that ultimately we all have to choose between faith & reason & I am concerned that the idea that those who have chosen reason have made the wrong choice is becoming stronger & stronger.
We all call him names like we all do with every Prime Minister,but he is a very influential person who,I feel,is being very unhelpful on this one.


06 Mar 06 - 05:54 AM (#1686280)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Keith A of Hertford

He was acknowledging that he had taken decisions that others thought were wrong, and which had led to lives being lost.
He was saying that he stood by his decisions but he believed that he would have to face judgement from his God.
He was not saying that he was being guided by God, only that he believed he would have to answer to God for what he did.

Most politicians act on the principle that a wrong is only a wrong if found out.


06 Mar 06 - 06:18 AM (#1686289)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,Van

So Keith, in this instance you are suggesting that Blair believes he will only be found out when he is judged by God. Not by the views of his fellows or those voters who decide against voting labour in current and future polls.


06 Mar 06 - 06:27 AM (#1686293)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Keith A of Hertford

Van, he is as open to exposure for wrong doing as any of them.
He has been shown to have been wrong over the 20 minute threat.
If he is sincere, he is saying that he believes he also faces a higher judgement with no chance of concealing evidence.


06 Mar 06 - 07:02 AM (#1686305)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

Well, that makes it official. Blair has learned to fake sincerity well enough to fool two Catters at least.

Don T.


06 Mar 06 - 07:08 AM (#1686307)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Keith A of Hertford

I said "if"


06 Mar 06 - 08:11 AM (#1686337)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,Van

The "God will be my judge" line does have a history of being used by people who wish to imply that fellow mortals aren't fit to pass judgement on them. I don't think that an elected politician can hide behind that view when he is paced in his position by people who at one time judged him fit to run the country.


06 Mar 06 - 08:11 AM (#1686338)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,Van

I meant placed not paced.


06 Mar 06 - 12:51 PM (#1686500)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: akenaton

Quite right Van....Its interesting to see all the people on this forum who banged the drum for Blair subtly change their positions.

Wonder if they will also be judged?

I remember the small group, half of them were GUESTS who warned of this disaster and were shouted down...Ake


06 Mar 06 - 06:36 PM (#1686772)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: McGrath of Harlow

not afraid to get in there and fight for what he believes.

He has never risked his skin in his entire life, so far as I have heard. Political risk? Big deal.

Having said which, I can't see where the mileage is in focusing too much attention on the fact that Blair has said he believes in God, which is hardly news.

Obviously if that is sincre it has to imply that he is aware that, even if he gets away with things so far as the public, or his political colleagues, are concerned, that still wouldn't mean he's off the hook. Quite salutary for political leaders to remember that.

I believe Roman generals having a public Triumph (sort of ticker tape parade as a reward for some victory) were supposed to have a bloke sitting in the chariot with them whose job it was to nudge them from time to time and to remind them that some day they too were going to die.


04 Feb 09 - 05:59 AM (#2556873)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Keith A of Hertford

Blair and Bush were derided by many here for their faith.
So far, Obama has escaped similar criticism despite quotes like,"I am a devout Christian....Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals."


04 Feb 09 - 06:18 AM (#2556884)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: wyrdolafr

Keith A of Hertford wrote: "Blair and Bush were derided by many here for their faith.

So far, Obama has escaped similar criticism despite quotes like,"I am a devout Christian....Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals."


I can't speak for anyone else, but the only time a politician's faith is an issue is when that faith informs their policies. I'm not particularly interested in policies shaped by religious belief. What a politician does in private is of no concern to me. If a politician's faith shapes and guides their own life then that's of no concern to me either. When a politician's faith begins to shape and guide other people's lives then I am concerned.

As with the nurse in the other thread, it's possible to have compassion and care about the welfare and lives of other people without it being couched in religious thinking. They don't have to be   entwined. I don't do good deeds as an expression of my own beliefs and I don't understand why other people have a problem separating the two.

Politicians, nurses and everyone else should leave spiritual welfare and religious guidance to priests - it's their job leave them to it. If you want to do their job, then leave the one you're presently doing - whether it's a politician, nurse or a painter and decorator - and become a priest.


04 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM (#2557185)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: GUEST,Mrr

Hey, at least after 9-11 he said it was an affront to people of all faiths *and* people of none - unlike Bush, who said atheists can't be patriots and probably can't be citizens either...


04 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM (#2557240)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Little Hawk

I am always sorely tempted to deride Republicans for their faith...(their faith in the Republican Party, I mean...not their faith in God).

I am similarly tempted to deride capitalists for their faith in the benefits of having an ever-expanding world economy. Now, there's a dangerous form of faith, by God!!! ;-)


04 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM (#2557243)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Little Hawk

Then there are those who have faith in the "trickle-down" theory of economics....you give the richest in society more money through tax breaks and it trickles down to the rest of the public and everyone's life improves.   LOL! Talk about your mythological concepts.


06 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM (#2559106)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Keith A of Hertford

Yesterday, Blair gave an address at Obama's "prayer breakfast"
Obama shook his hand and said he was his "good friend."

Don posted above, "Well, that makes it official. Blair has learned to fake sincerity well enough to fool two Catters at least.

Don T. "

Make that 2 catters and one president?


06 Feb 09 - 04:14 PM (#2559396)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Stringsinger

The Prayer Breakfast was instituted by the "Fellowship", a conservative religious organization that has been covered by Jeffery Shurtleff in his book.

The premise is that in their view their Jesus loves the rich and the powerful, not the poor.

Pretty interesting.


06 Feb 09 - 08:03 PM (#2559610)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Richard Bridge

I'm betting that the only reason Obama says that (and goes to church etc) is that in the US the church and state are not truly separated, so any politician who wishes to survive in politics has to parrot nonsense about religion.

BLiar: in the end we all knew he was yet another nutter. One whose lunatic beliefs should have made him ineligible for public office in any rational world - like the dangerous and somewhat sinister Ruth Kelly.


06 Feb 09 - 09:37 PM (#2559674)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God
From: Joe Offer

Well, Frank, I don't really know how to document who founded the National Prayer Breakfast in 1953 (Obama says it had its roots in the Depression), and I don't really care. Most likely, those people are either dead or nearly so. The fact of the matter is, every President since Eisenhower has attended.

It gives the President an opportunity to speak from a spiritual perspective - and the wise ones do it from a non-ideological spiritual perspective, attempting to bring unity and tolerance amidst the ideological discord in our country.

Click here to see what President Obama said. I think he said it from the heart, and I think what he said it of great value.

Obama says, "The particular faith that motivates each of us can promote a greater good for all of us....Instead of driving us apart, our varied beliefs can bring us together to feed the hungry and comfort the afflicted; to make peace where there is strife and rebuild what has broken; to lift up those who have fallen on hard times."

If I honestly seek what is good, why should anyone care what my religious perspective is?

It grieves me to see these "religious" discussions at Mudcat, where so many people I know and respect, speak with such bigotry. If you're not religious, that's fine - but have the common decency to respect your brothers and sisters who do have a spiritual perspective, unless you have hard evidence to prove that their way of looking at things is somehow destructive. The Conventional Wisdom here is that all religious people are blockheaded fundamentalists, and that's simply not true.

-Joe Offer, angrily-


07 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM (#2559917)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Riginslinger

"If you're not religious, that's fine - but have the common decency to respect your brothers and sisters who do have a spiritual perspective,..."


                      But it's hard to stand by while they destroy the planet!


07 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM (#2559957)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Keith A of Hertford

By "they" you mean people like Christians?
You think "they" are to blame?!


07 Feb 09 - 09:56 AM (#2559963)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Riginslinger

Not just Christians, all those other addicts who refuse to deal with reality too.


08 Feb 09 - 01:02 AM (#2560592)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Joe Offer

Give me a break, Rig -
Just what is it I'm doing to destroy the planet, that nonreligious people don't do? I think you've just done an admirable job of showing the silliness behind the antireligious bigotry that's so much in vogue nowadays.
-Joe-


08 Feb 09 - 02:43 AM (#2560601)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: akenaton

I think we're getting our wires crossed here Joe.
The "religious" views of Blair, Bush and Obama, will I'm sure have little in common with the code that you live by.

I'm an atheist regarding a supreme vengeful God who rules the universe, but I still recognise the need for spirituality in our lives if we are to be complete human beings.
I think you probably have that spirituality Joe, but dont allow it to becme stained by the agenda of "organised religion".....Ake


08 Feb 09 - 07:12 AM (#2560699)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Riginslinger

"Just what is it I'm doing to destroy the planet, that nonreligious people don't do?"

             Say, for instance, you're a practicing Roman Catholic, and follow the Pope's directives on family planning, while the planet is awash with people and resources are dwindling. The Muslim groups seem to be worse in this regard, but the Catholics certainly are destructive.

            Human population growth is the single most preventable environmental hazard in the world today, and the blind continue to think it's fine to "go forth and procreate."

            Then there is the intertwining of business and religion in America particularly--sociologists call it the Protestant Ethic--that encourages people to continue to expand and devour resources, without regard to the carrying capacity of the land.

            The religious wars only help in the sense that some humanity is extinguished, but with modern warfare we create more paraplegiacs than corpses.

            Probably the biggest drawback to religion is the proposition that it prevents people from dealing with reality so that problems cannot be solved.


08 Feb 09 - 08:23 AM (#2560743)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Keith A of Hertford

The most Catholic of countries, Italy, has a rapidly declining population.
You can not blame religion for the population figures.
The main Christian ethics are forgiveness, turning the other cheek,
love your neighbour, and also your enemy, as yourself, give to the poor,....
Which of these is the most harmful to the world?


08 Feb 09 - 01:22 PM (#2560979)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: akenaton

Well..none really Keith, these principles are fine, but do Blair Bush or Obasma really believe in them, do they want to put them into practice or hide behind them?


08 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM (#2560993)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow

...do Blair Bush or Obasma really believe in them...?"

Bush pretty clearly doesn't, with Blair it's pretty questionable. Obama? Let's wait and see... and hope.


08 Feb 09 - 02:12 PM (#2561028)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Stringsinger

Obama has dismissed non-believers. He should dismiss those from Goldman Sachs who are running our monetary policies.

Those who take offense at the criticisms of "faith"
are employing the same dismissal.   

"If you're not religious, that's fine - but have the common decency to respect your brothers and sisters who do have a spiritual perspective,..."

I do respect my brothers and sisters as people but not necessarily what they believe.
There is no "common decency" that needs to be defended here. The "common decency" would entail a reasonable examination of the hypotheses that many religious people espouse and question their sense of justice.

I think the conversation can be civilized without resorting to name-calling but to deny the conversation altogether as some sort of emblem or "respect" is denial.


08 Feb 09 - 04:11 PM (#2561125)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow

Obama has dismissed non-believers.

That's precisely what he hasn't done - "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers."


08 Feb 09 - 10:44 PM (#2561377)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Joe Offer

I'm surprised at you, Stringsinger. I thought you might be more open-minded than that. I really think I'd like you if I met you in person - and I think you'd like me, despite my religion.

I would venture a guess that the "hypotheses that many religious people espouse" have little effect on your life, or on society in general. I suppose that I, too, would question the "their sense of justice" of many people who call themselves religious - but there are many, many religious people who devote their lives to social justice. A couple of weeks ago, I went to the (Catholic) funeral of an old lady who had worked with Cesar Chavez for years in the fight for rights for farmworkers. She collected food for the hungry every week, and she was arrested in peace demonstrations countless times. And she was married to an ex-priest, and went to Mass every Sunday. The stories I heard about her really moved me.

This woman was passionately religious, and she also had a passionate sense of justice. There have been thousands of people like her in every social justice movement in the last century.

If you wanted to argue religion with her, she would have told you that her religion meant a lot to her, but it was her own business. It you wanted to discuss with her, that would be a different matter.

I think that if we are to survive as a society, we all need to have faith - faith in the essential goodness of our fellow human beings. Cynicism and alienation and condemnation will only lead us to constant conflict. We need to move beyond ideological conflict and find the many things that can unite us.

As for Blair and Obama, I think they're decent, capable people who intend to serve humankind as best they can. I don't know what went wrong with Blair - I didn't like his alliance with Bush and participation in the war in Iraq, but he said and did many things that impressed and inspired me. I don't even think of Bush as an evil person - he just was a misguided failure.

Try tolerance. It's the only thing we have that might be able to heal this world.

-Joe-


08 Feb 09 - 10:51 PM (#2561381)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: GUEST

Joe-
sanity might help, too.

dick greenhaus


09 Feb 09 - 12:26 AM (#2561413)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Joe Offer

Well, sanity is a bit of a challenge for me, Dick. I've been hanging around here far too long. My sanity left long ago.

But back to the subject at hand, it seems that so many "antireligious" people want to lump all the religious people together and define them all as mindless fundamentalists. That's just not the case - many "religious" people are as self-critical and philosophical and "freethinking" as their nonreligious counterparts.

If I go into a born-again church, I'm a duck out of water. I feel like I'm in enemy territory and that I have to be careful about every word I say. If I'm with Unitarians or agnostics, I'm very much at ease. If I'm with rigid atheists, then I'm pigeonholed as some sort of mindless religious zombie who takes his orders directly from the Pope.

I think some "freethinkers" need to think a little more freely, and not demonize people so quickly.


-Joe-


09 Feb 09 - 08:54 AM (#2561629)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Riginslinger

Sanity is the subject at hand.


09 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM (#2561765)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow

Fundamentalism comes in all kinds of varieties, including some which are pretty hostile to religion.


09 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM (#2561778)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Riginslinger

Addiction come in all kinds of varieties, as well, most of which are destructive to soceity.


09 Feb 09 - 12:41 PM (#2561844)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Stringsinger

There is no fundamentalist atheist. Fundamentalism requires belief. Atheism is non-belief.

The people who I know that are atheists don't demonize people. But they don't accept
irrational ideas either.

Actually, the atheists I know don't lump all religions together but have studied them more than most who claim to be religious. Many so-called Christians really don't know the bible very well. They have no historical sense of it.

I don't agree that we all have to have "faith". Society can do quite well without it.
"Faith" is never defined very well by anyone anyhow. It is a vague, amorphous concept
which is held out as a religious carrot to control others.

"Hope" might be another proposition, however.

Anyone who doesn't accept a religious premise is generally characterized by religious people as being "close-minded". The assumption that those who don't agree with the dogma have not studied it or been exposed to it. This is false.

Religion is a personal thing as is one's sex life. Our Constitution permits Flat Earth Societies, Moon-as-green-cheese worship, Golden Calves, even an abiding belief in Santa Claus. As Americans we are free to believe whatever we want and to not believe the same.
We also have a right to challenge any belief system that we disagree with as long as the discussion is respectful of people but not necessarily their ideas.

Narrow-mindedness often comes in the form of the defense of religion by religious people. I think people can do good things whether they are religious or not.

The "essential" goodness of people does not have to do with a religious belief system.
Unfortunately, the term "faith" gets in the way of a rational discussion.

Obama's "faith-based initiatives" run counter to the meaning of Separation of Church and State. Although he mentions non-believers in his speeches you can be assured that he doesn't include them in his policies. He has said that "religion belongs in the public sector" which is a way of tearing down the wall of Separation. It doesn't belong in government decisions and can't be supported by people who don't believe it by forcing them to pay taxes for it.

Tolerance is a two-way street. Very few religious people are tolerant of non-believers.
The meaning of tolerance is that we can agree to disagree and state our opinions openly without someone taking offense.

Stringsinger


09 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM (#2561865)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Atheism is non-belief."

No it doesn't. It means believing that there is no God. A very strong and powerful belief for many people.


09 Feb 09 - 01:02 PM (#2561873)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: beardedbruce

Atheism is the belief that there is no god.


Agnosticism is the belief that one does not know if there is a god or not.


09 Feb 09 - 02:21 PM (#2561962)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Agnosticism is non-belief" would be accurate enough.


10 Feb 09 - 08:13 AM (#2562613)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Riginslinger

Agnostics, it seems to me, are people who really don't believe (if you aren't sure, I don't see you wallowing around in the river hoping to get baptized) but don't what to suffer the vile and vicous insults often hurled at atheist by believers.


11 Feb 09 - 08:52 PM (#2564504)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow

The distinction is analogous to that between someone who doesn't eat meat (the agnostic), and someone who is a vegetarian (the atheist). For the first it's a dietary preference, for the second it's a belief system.


12 Feb 09 - 01:48 PM (#2565127)
Subject: RE: BS: Blair and God...and Obama
From: Riginslinger

Actually, it seems to me that agnostics are confused by belief systems, and atheists are free of them.