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BS: Cartoon riots around the world

06 Feb 06 - 07:10 PM (#1663230)
Subject: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Donuel

The riots are real and not a cartoon but it does show that Muslims have a better developed sense of anger than humor. I did turban and bomb cartoons years ago but never titled them Mohamed. It seems you can;t dpict the face of Mohamed but you can sure name millions of people with a face Mohamed. I even named a breakfast after him: Mohamed eggs ...two fried eggs with olives for pupils.

During my 4 week "vacation" here are some of my cartoon captions and titles from the last 4 weeks;

Bush ABC's...excerpt: J is for Jail and Journalists.
Unaccountable Incompetence.
Monarchy Anarchy
Disruption of corruption puts Democracy at risk
War is cheap compared to the deficit.
Ebay item description: As rare as an exit strategy at Pennsylvania Ave.
The death of judicial review.
A strong President doesn't need absolute power.
Nowadays if you're not for freedom, you're against tyranny.
Freedom isn't free (list of rich and famous "contibutors" to Congress for permanent tax cuts)
Wire tap (a wire running through the ears of W, Rice, Rumsfeld, Chertoff and NSA chief)


06 Feb 06 - 07:14 PM (#1663241)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin

I don't like the way Canadians are portrayed in South Park.

Let's riot!


06 Feb 06 - 07:15 PM (#1663245)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace

I don't have a TV. Is South Park a soap opera?


06 Feb 06 - 09:50 PM (#1663394)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: GUEST

I do like the way they are portrayed in Trailer Park Boys.


06 Feb 06 - 09:53 PM (#1663397)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin

Let's riot anyway!

I'm feeling left out, not being offended to the point of violence about anything today.


06 Feb 06 - 11:06 PM (#1663451)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Stilly River Sage

I posted this link on another thread several days ago, after searching high and low to see what the flap was all about. It seems largely manufactured, based upon large societies without freedom of the press. No one knows what it is they're pissed off about. How handy for the agitators.

SRS


06 Feb 06 - 11:14 PM (#1663460)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: robomatic

Now that I think about it, West Wing once had a nasty remark about ANWR.

They'll PAY!

OH They'll Pay!


07 Feb 06 - 02:08 AM (#1663525)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: open mike

the cartoon was published in Denmark (and Norway)
but where was the cartoonist from?

i suport the Danish and the freedom of expression
and do not understand how anyone can justify such
destructive response to this.


07 Feb 06 - 02:19 AM (#1663529)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Pauline L

SRS, thanks for the link. I looked for the cartoons but gave up. They don't look outrageous to me. Some of them I don't even understand. I've seen photos of violent Muslims rioting, so I know the cartoons mean a lot to them.


07 Feb 06 - 03:28 AM (#1663553)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: The Shambles

Yes I see Bart Simpson hitting Popeye with a banner calling for Snoopy to beheaded for insulting Micky Mouse and so on ...............................


07 Feb 06 - 05:27 AM (#1663593)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: The Shambles

The right to insult and cause offence


07 Feb 06 - 07:47 AM (#1663674)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Donuel

Joke warfare has backfired.
Remember the Monty Python deadly joke?

Why does Hitler's dog smell so bad?

because it has no nose.

Examples of Jewish Humor:
Oy am I thirsty. Oy am I thirsty. Here have this water...
Oy was I thirsty.

Reaction: a slight grin.

Examples of Islamic humor:
A funny thing happened to Mohamed on the way to the Mosque...
He saw himself in a mirror.

Reaction: Slay cartoonists, Behead the joke writers, Burn their families...

..................

I could postulate that Jewish humor has evolved from great adversity and that Islamic humor is banned by the Q'ran. Or that Judaism does not spread religion by the sword.

But the real difference is the treatment of women.

_________TEST_________

Name 10 great Jewish comedians.

Name 1 great Muslim comedian.



Don't get me wrong, I have seen several great Islamic comedians but they were highly westerniized.


07 Feb 06 - 08:48 AM (#1663732)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Donuel

thanks for the link

Thirty years ago at an old brick apartment building on Hertel Avenue in Buffalo NY, I was visiting friends on the pretense of smoking a joint, or visa versa, its hard to remember which.
Somehow no one had a match or lighter and the electric stove offered no convenience so I went into the hall and knocked on a door to see if I could borrow some matches. An orthodox Jew with weather worn face and beard answered the door. Before I could even ask for fire the man traced my eyes to a glance I made behind him where his wife was peeking around a doorway. He immediately became incensed. He angrily shouted that I had broken his convenent with God because religious law forbid his wife's face from being seen on the Sabbath.
She looked worried and scared.

Hell, I had never heard of such a thing before, not even during the time I went to Hebrew school for the option of getting a Bar Mitzvah.
I apologized claiming ignorence but he went on berating me in the hallway and heaping guilt upon me for the punishment that his wife will now have to endure. I said "Hey I don't care whatever promise you made to whatever God, but if you beat your wife you'll have to answer to the police". Of course this infuriated him to the point of holy curses and door slamming.

I don't believe this guy's God forbid reflected light of his wife to enter the eye of another human being but it happened. But now I was made to be the reason for this woman to be punished. Now I wish I had uttered some Yiddish joke instead of making the guy even angrier.

And that is where I realised that humor was often used to defuse silly religiously held beliefs. The mother of a Catholic girl I knew would some times offer up homor regarding some obscure Saint or ritual of facing an icon to the west and spinning around three times, just to let people know that she took faith a religious rules witha grain of salt. Likewise Jewish humor often involves either God or a Jewish Mother and lightened the mood when people were unsure whether they had to stand on ceremony.

Whether its an Orthodox Jew hiding a their wife's face on the Sabbath, or a Muslim man hiding the faces of women all the time I can still think of no joke to enlighten the situation and defuse the insecure, tyranical underlying cause for beliefs that cause nothing but hurt and misunderstanding between people.

If I find the joke that will save the world, I will let you know.


07 Feb 06 - 08:52 AM (#1663734)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Donuel

A good back ground tune for a documentary on this subject


I started a joke that set the world world crying...
The Bee Gees?


07 Feb 06 - 10:20 AM (#1663812)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace

I was under the obviously mistaken notion that cartoons were supposed to be funny.


07 Feb 06 - 10:32 AM (#1663826)
Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Stilly River Sage

  • an often humorous or satirical drawing to evoke emotions, usually with a caption. A cartoon is typically a simple-lined drawing and tells a story or continues a story; it can consist of one or more pictures or frames.

    From here.


  • 07 Feb 06 - 10:49 AM (#1663843)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: bobad

    An Iranian newspaper launched a contest to find the 12 best cartoons about the holocaust. Makes a lot of sense eh? Lets blame the Jews and really stir up some shit.


    07 Feb 06 - 10:54 AM (#1663848)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST

    holocaust cartoon competition

    Apparently it is to test the Western media's idea of freedom of expression. Will they print them?


    07 Feb 06 - 11:03 AM (#1663854)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: bobad

    Of course the will print them, if only to let the world see how these people just don't get it.


    07 Feb 06 - 11:22 AM (#1663863)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: number 6

    It's all insane .... and no, it certainly is not all the western world's fault.

    sIx


    07 Feb 06 - 11:37 AM (#1663882)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: jimmyt

    It is truly a puzzle to me how anyone can justify burning buildings and killing people because of an insult to their religion.

    It is also a puzzle as to how throwing rocks at the police by the Egyptians awaiting news on the fate of the people lost in the ferry sinking last week can POSSIBLY make any sense at all.

    It is a puzzle as to where the voice of reason is among the Islamic faith. If these are only examples of extremists, what percentage of the people are extremist? Is it over 50? If so, then they must be more likely called mainstream. If there truly is a high percentage of moderates, why have they not been more vocal in their distancing themselves from the extremists?


    07 Feb 06 - 12:15 PM (#1663913)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    Cartoons about the holocaust being printed will offend and hurt.

    Bring them on.

    The ones offended and hurt will dismiss it and consider the source.

    No embassys will be burned. No flags will be burned. There are no Arab products to take off the shelf besides oil any way.

    In other words, it will show this group of 7th century mentality just how out of sync with the rest of humanity they are. Thye will continue to polarize themselves from the rest of mankind.


    07 Feb 06 - 12:35 PM (#1663924)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Gervase

    Shit! I agree with Martin.


    07 Feb 06 - 01:28 PM (#1663945)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    God alone is great. Therefore, Mohammed is just another guy.


    07 Feb 06 - 01:38 PM (#1663947)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Emma B

    When I was quite a young child my parents took me to see some Leonardo Da Vinci cartoons - I couldn't see anything funny - no falling Acme anvils, ferociously armed cats, endangered but smart canaries nothing to laugh at all in fact!


    07 Feb 06 - 01:39 PM (#1663948)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    The pope too is just another goy.

    Wolfgang


    07 Feb 06 - 01:53 PM (#1663953)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    I agree.


    07 Feb 06 - 02:41 PM (#1663983)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Every man is just another guy. Or....we are all gods and sons of the highest. Take your pick. As you believe, so shall you live.


    07 Feb 06 - 02:59 PM (#1663994)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,Martin gibson

    Agreeing with me is never so hard with the wisdom and outlook I bring here daily.


    07 Feb 06 - 03:36 PM (#1664007)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Oh, for sure. That's what I say about myself too. ;-)

    Here's an Arab product to take off the shelf, Martin... Dates!


    07 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM (#1664011)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: number 6

    I buy only dates from Israel.

    They 're not just a 'Arab Product' L.H.

    sIx


    07 Feb 06 - 03:56 PM (#1664015)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: number 6

    All this brings to light, the life works of the brilliant Salman Rushdie. Is he still on the 'hit list' for his writings, in particular 'The Satanic Verses'?

    sIx


    07 Feb 06 - 06:23 PM (#1664050)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Jeri

    A cartoon jihad... who said those guys don't have a sense of humor?


    07 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM (#1664075)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,sorefingers

    It is altogether too sad for me to even begin to think about who is what and why.

    Most Muslims beleive in an uncritical way and to them there is no other way to re-act.

    I do hope they will eventually manage to forgive and move on!


    07 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM (#1664078)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: michaelr

    This idiotic uproar proves again, as if it needed proving again, that religious fervor turns people into morons.


    07 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM (#1664083)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    michaelR, that statement was absurd.

    Only for religious groups who still think it is the seventh century and will not even recognize any other religions in the world.

    Your generalization shows how little you know about the subject.


    08 Feb 06 - 11:22 AM (#1664240)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    Speaking about the cartoon jihad, here's one of the retaliatory cartoons:

    click

    What makes me ponder: Arabs feel insulted by Christian Danes and hit back at Jews. Oh, I see, like it was said in German(y) some sixty years ago: "It's always the Jews' fault" (no, that was not meant ironically).

    They don't even need to draw the cartoons themselves, there is already a rich choice in neonazi publications. These publications are not allowed to be printed in Germany, so even the German language products are usually printed in - Denmark.

    Wolfgang


    08 Feb 06 - 12:24 PM (#1664292)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    Personally, I wish those religious zealots--of whatever regigion--would just go meet their Makers and let the rest of us get on with it.

    Ya wanna meet Allah? Here's a quarter, get a .22 and have your best friend shoot you in the fuc#in' head. Go.

    Assholes the lot. Zealotry is zealotry. Here's a friggin' quarter. Do us all a favour and shoot yourselves. You God will be pleased to make your acquaintance.


    08 Feb 06 - 12:33 PM (#1664306)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    Why are there so many poor Catholics in the world? Poor Muslims? The Vatican is wealthy. The followers of Allah are wealthy. Why are these religions so stingy with their followers? Why are TV Evangelists so rich? What kind of mental stupidity does a person need to give money to these crooks? Why don't the suicide bombers follow their religious leaders into the suicide? Why are people so damned stupid? Does it go with the 'religious' turf?


    08 Feb 06 - 04:02 PM (#1664493)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    Those interested in inciting hatred of "The West" did travel around a lot with their propaganda. Since the cartoons published by the newspaper were too mild they showed around some other cartoons (they say now only to show what was sent to them in Denmark).

    The Mohammed of these "more nasty" cartoons has been identified now: Jacques Barrot (at a making noise like a pig competition in France)

    Wolfgang


    08 Feb 06 - 04:07 PM (#1664499)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    please read "one of these"

    Wolfgang


    08 Feb 06 - 06:13 PM (#1664619)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Wolfgang, who do you think would benefit right now from making sure that such controversial images reach the Muslim world, get widely publicized, and are interpreted by ordinary Muslims in the street as a decadent European civilization's attack on ALL Muslims? Who?

    Figure that out, and you will begin to see how and why it has happened at this time. It is no accident.


    08 Feb 06 - 06:34 PM (#1664655)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Michael Eisner, that's who.

    The bastard.


    08 Feb 06 - 06:40 PM (#1664663)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Someone who wants to start another Middle East war, and wants Europeans to give their material or at least their moral support to it would benefit. The only way to do that, at this point, is to cause a major rift between the Western Europeans and the Muslims. That is being accomplished right now, and quite cleverly too. A magnificently calculated Psy-Op, if ever I've seen one.


    08 Feb 06 - 06:57 PM (#1664682)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,Desdemona

    This whole thing is tremendously upsetting; I'm flummoxed, perplexed, nonplussed, baffled...I mean, Jesus, the Buddha, God Almighty, Thor, Odin, that pack of crazies on My olympus (you're getting the idea) all take it on the sacred chin every day of the week. My feeling--and it's one in which I take no pleasure--is that some people thrive on hatred, fury and senseless bloodshed, and any or NO excuse will do.

    I am increasingly saddened and worried at the state of the world, and for what it will be like for my kids and grandchildren...President Cuckoo Bananas is openly tapping our phones and declaring war against 'fundamentalist Islam' (does he even know what that means, I wonder?), admits to deliberately deceiving Congress into allowing him to play War in Iraq...oh, what the hell. Will someone please just give him a blowjob so we can impeach him and have at least a shot at salvaging something for the next generation of those 'American people' he's always yammering about?

    ~D


    08 Feb 06 - 07:03 PM (#1664687)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Will someone please just give him a blowjob...

    Everyone's doing that. Some are even enjoying it.


    08 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM (#1664691)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    There are some sacrifices which simply ask too much in the line of duty...


    08 Feb 06 - 07:46 PM (#1664721)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Amos

    For an interesting study on similar hateful cartoons directed at others than Muslims and never apologized for, see this article. It is clear that for some reasons, some Muslims do not see offensive depictions as a two-way street. I have no idea why this is.

    A


    08 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM (#1664732)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Most people seem to lack complete objectivity or even-handedness when it comes to such things, Amos...just watch the rhetoric on this forum.

    The only thing that's quite notable about this cartoon crisis is its timing, and how well it has been orchestrated through the world media. That guarantees the biggest and worst possible reaction on the part of both Muslims and Europeans. It's very convenient for certain parties. That is why it's happening.

    When something is needed to outrage Americans, something will be found. Just wait and see. Remember the "babies in the incubators" phony story from Kuwait? Remember 911? Remember the Reichstag fire? Remember the Maine? When provocations are needed, they will be provided.


    08 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM (#1664733)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    Because some Muslim clerics are total and complete assholes.


    08 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM (#1664736)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    As are some Christian and Jewish clerics.

    The worst fanaticism I've seen is in 2 places that can't stand one another: Saudi Arabia and Israel. Oh, and add Iran to that list too. All three of them are convinced they are God's Chosen and the Righteous Sword of his Wrath. This makes them a plague upon themselves and their neighbours.


    08 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM (#1664737)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    This is a culture war. These people are at war with people of the 21st century.


    08 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM (#1664742)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    "As are some Christian and Jewish clerics."

    Yes, that is true. But there is a bitchin' higher percent of idiot Muslim clerics than there are Rabbis or Priests. Other than Robertson, how many Rabbis and Priests do you read about who suggest we all go off and murder p[eople because they have insulted Jesus or the Pope or The Wailing Wall or the Temple? Give it a rest.


    08 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM (#1664751)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    That's partly true, Martin. They perceive us as decadent, immoral, spoiled, addicted to pornography and drugs, and spiritually bankrupt. They're partly right. ;-) Still, that's no justification for killing people. Besides, they are not taking note of the great big beam that's in their own eye.

    We perceive them as primitive, superstitious, fanatical, addicted to religious rules, and spiritually blind. We're partly right too. Still, that's no justification for launching pre-emptive wars on people and wrecking their homeland.

    Same old story....


    08 Feb 06 - 08:17 PM (#1664757)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: John O'L

    I hear that Michael jackson is going to sing some of the prayers of Pope John Paul II.
    That should be enough to get Christians burning black face masks on the lawns of Neverland surely?


    08 Feb 06 - 08:56 PM (#1664789)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    Little Hawk, so what if it comes to their homeland or ours? Personally, I think they can't be reasoned with and I am not up for Israel or the U.S (OK Canada, also) getting it from them in their rage.

    I mean, they hate us. The biggest hate there is. They want to take us out.

    When are some of you lefties going to get it into your thick skull?


    08 Feb 06 - 09:02 PM (#1664795)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    I don't think it does come to their homeland or ours...unless we make it so. We have the power, they don't.

    We are the guys with 10,000 nuclear weapons and the biggest high tech military forces on Earth. They're not even strong enough to fight Israel, let alone us.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:04 PM (#1664799)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    When I say "us", I mean North America. I realize that for you, "us" includes Israel.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:08 PM (#1664802)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Maybe it's easier for them to hate us if they see us as one big block of faceless infidels in the decadent west.

    While we have to separate out the rabid hate-mongers who thrive on pain and strife in some sado-masochistic bid for promised spiritual reward.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:11 PM (#1664804)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    And the stronger the enemy, the more glory when you spit in his eye?


    08 Feb 06 - 09:11 PM (#1664805)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Most North Americans also see the Muslims as one big block of faceless, fanatical, brown-skinned foreigners in faraway places.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:14 PM (#1664810)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Now you're stereotyping Americans.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:17 PM (#1664816)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Sorry. "North" Americans.

    But maybe there's good justification for your stereotype. When you are being repeatedly told a group of people hates you and wants you dead, you will naturally hate them back. After all, when you don't really have much to do with them on a personal level day-to-day, what do you know about them really except what you're told.

    Then again, "familiarity breeds contempt".

    It's a conundrum alright.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:21 PM (#1664820)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Exactly. That's my point. The media tells most people what to think, and what else do they know about it?

    When I was growing up, the media constantly programmed the North American public to hate and fear Communists, and expect to fight them at any moment. Now it's Muslim fundamentalists instead. Different "bad guy", same basic routine.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:24 PM (#1664821)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    "It's a conundrum alright."

    Threats from anyone are nonstarters, IMO. If this country is threatened, I really hope we have the balls to seek out the people who made the threats and shoot the fuckers. Hell, all they have to do is threaten. No diplomacy, no talk, none of that. Just boom, boom, and be done with it.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:28 PM (#1664830)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    And when that other group of people are told you hate them, then they respond in kind. Nicely vicious little circle.

    Hasn't anybody ever spoken out against this kind of thinking? Maybe even somebody "religious"?


    08 Feb 06 - 09:29 PM (#1664834)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    Leaders will NOT use this option because it makes them targets also. As to a vicious circle? No. Tell me. Someone threatens your family, and the police do nothing, you just gonna let it go?


    08 Feb 06 - 09:30 PM (#1664835)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Yeah. Jesus did. Gandhi did. Buddha did. Baha 'Ullah did. I think they just about all did. It's their followers who are the problem.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:31 PM (#1664839)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    Cluin, you talk in circles. Have you personally ever known fear because of your religion? Well, I sure have. Oh yeah, first you have to have a religion.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:32 PM (#1664840)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Depends on the threat, its immediacy, how I know it's true, and what my options are.

    But no, I'm not just gonna let it go.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:33 PM (#1664843)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    I didn't think you would. Same goes for my country. Assholes anywhere threaten our country, I hope we unleash folks who would enjoy dealing with those who made the threats.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:38 PM (#1664847)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    I don't have to know fear because of my religion; I have enough other sources of it.

    I also don't have to wear it on my sleeve. It's mine. For me.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM (#1664854)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    There we agree. Completely.


    08 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM (#1664855)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: number 6

    Fucking cartoon land .... and it's right here!

    sIx


    08 Feb 06 - 09:47 PM (#1664860)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    You don't deal with a loudmouth politician or cleric who made a threat by killing a hundred thousand ordinary people who happen to look a bit like him or have the bad luck to be from his country or culture...

    At least, I don't.


    08 Feb 06 - 10:17 PM (#1664883)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    No. Deal with the guy who made the threat. Period.


    08 Feb 06 - 10:23 PM (#1664890)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    I wish.


    08 Feb 06 - 10:36 PM (#1664902)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST

    "Have you personally ever known fear because of your religion?"

    Are you saying Jews are the only ones who have suffered from this?

    Lets see - Cathars and many early Christians, Armenians and now Muslims. Oh yeah - What about Catholics in Northern Ireland or Tibetan Buddhists?

    Martin - You are so self-centered that you absolutely lack empathy for any other population of persecuted people. Grow up and stop feeling sorry for yourself.


    08 Feb 06 - 10:43 PM (#1664905)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Ron Davies

    Jon Stewart made the important point recently that Danish cartoonists have actually been the source of problems for quite a while. He cited the famous 1989 cartoon of "Revelations of Havarti Cheese", noting the serious unrest unleashed in the Danish cheese-making community as a result.


    08 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM (#1664906)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Bill D

    A cartoon opinion of cartoon opinions

    It's hard to say it more clearly.


    08 Feb 06 - 10:56 PM (#1664914)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: bobad

    The battle lines are being drawn:

    NY Press Kills Cartoons; Staff Walks Out


    08 Feb 06 - 11:28 PM (#1664934)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    Guest, I wasn't addressing you. And I figure you are not part of the groups you mentioneed anyway as you are just a non-entity.

    But you can pretend you are the protector of humanity all you want.


    08 Feb 06 - 11:37 PM (#1664943)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Peace

    "Ayatollah blasts publication of cartoons
    07/02/2006 - 11:40:45

    The West's publication of the Prophet Mohammed cartoons was an Israeli conspiracy motivated by anger over Hamas' win in the Palestinian elections, Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said today."

    From here.



    Not yer average garden-variety asshole, is he?


    08 Feb 06 - 11:44 PM (#1664951)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    Yes he is. I believe he might just be typical of the species.

    Of course the cartoons, which were drawn originally last September were the Jews lashing out at Hamas' win about 2 weeks ago.

    I can't wait until someone like this is put in his place in a big cloud of smoke.


    08 Feb 06 - 11:55 PM (#1664957)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: jaze

    Sadly, these Muslims have just proven the point of the cartoons. With the turban/bomb idea it was expressing the violence in Islam, and they went right out and proved it to the world. Bush said it is a religion of moderation and tolerance. Really?? Some Muslims claim extremists have hijacked their religion. Why don't they hijack it back? The silent majority of Muslims seem to be giving tacit approval to the extremists by saying and doing nothing. But then Christianity has somewhat of the same problem with the "Religious Right".


    09 Feb 06 - 12:11 AM (#1664967)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Exactly, jaze. But it's the wacko extremists on both sides that make the news. The moderates who want peace have to do something big to make themselves more known or else be painted with the same brush, unfortunately.

    I notice that a lot of sites on the internet that had posted those cartoons for people to see what the fuss was about have since taken them down. A lot of dead links out there.

    Tune in again next week to "The squeaky wheel gets the oil" or "Free speech caves in to fear".


    09 Feb 06 - 12:32 AM (#1664979)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: John O'L

    Another cartoon


    09 Feb 06 - 12:44 AM (#1664981)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Lonesome EJ

    The moderates who want peace have to do something big to make themselves more known or else be painted with the same brush, unfortunately.

    In a land where jihad is declared by a government leader against the author of a fictional book, offering a heavenly reward for his killer, would YOU speak out if you were a moderate Muslim? A moderate Muslim is probably someone who has a family and a home and attaches some value to his life. Do you think he (or she) would have the death-wish necessary to oppose that crowd? Even in countries like the US and Britain, the loudest voices coming from the Muslim community are those in harmony with the cartoon jihadists, not opposing their actions. Heck, you have people on this forum who see the whole issue here as the Danes getting what they deserve for being so darn critical.
    Wasn't it T.S.Eliot who spoke of the best paralyzed by their own doubt, while the worst are filled with righteous fury?


    09 Feb 06 - 12:48 AM (#1664982)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,dianavan


    09 Feb 06 - 12:48 AM (#1664983)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,dianavan


    09 Feb 06 - 01:09 AM (#1664984)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,dianavan

    Sorry, sorry.

    Meant to say that cartoon, John, is GReaaaaaaaaat!

    LonesomeEJ - I don't think anyone deserves this. Especially the Danes. I do wonder why the works were commissioned? I do question the wisdom of those who published after the Danes, knowing full well that there was trouble brewing.

    I mean, give it a break: there's a time and place for everything. The timing was pretty bad. The press also has a responsibility.

    Lets face it. Depictions of Christ or God or Buddah or Krishna are not generallly run in the local newspaper or even in most magazines.

    So why challenge the 'freedom of the press' over this particular issue and why now?



    I think this is simply a matter of; you reap what you sow.


    09 Feb 06 - 06:38 AM (#1665087)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: beardedbruce

    Peace,

    "If this country is threatened, I really hope we have the balls to seek out the people who made the threats and shoot the fuckers. Hell, all they have to do is threaten. No diplomacy, no talk, none of that. Just boom, boom, and be done with it. "


    And Israel continues to show great restraint by NOT attacking those nations that have threatened it for the last 58 years. Israel has to wait until the threats are turned into action, and then is criticised for taking steps to defend itself ( though 1956 was a questionable case).


    09 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM (#1665124)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Donuel

    For what it is worth, I have done several cartoons of the holocaust.
    In this one I sampled a photograph of the victims at Dachau and used them to represent Muslim dead... http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushfalluja.jpg


    In another cartoon I changed a photo I made of night clouds illuminated by fire in DC to become the smoke from the Nazi concentration camp ovens. The smoke is the shape of a special letter in the Hebrew alphabet which has an additional meaning of 'why?'.

    I turned Albrect Macht Frei iron gate into a US free speech zone.

    I will not show the cartoon I made of the holocast dead piled high to create a podium for a current President due to the current climate and Iranian cartoon competition.

    I have dedicated 10 years to say important things with pictures. For a cartoon to be great/timeless, I have tried to incorporate 3 things: suggest the mortality of men, the hypocrisy of men and a unique POV that makes a person think from a new perspective.

    To be shocked that I have exploited the holocast dead in cartoons is to miss the point that only the living can speak for the dead. If we do so in a way that instructs more than it inflames I believe some good has been done. If I am wrong then I have wasted most of my life in speaking out against lost causes.


    09 Feb 06 - 08:53 AM (#1665170)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Donuel

    People prefer your anger to to your laughter. To be laughed at diminishes your power and importence.




    I saw the CNN interview of the Danish publisher mentioned above.
    The most hysterical thing about that interview on CNN was when he attempted to show a cartoon critical of Jews followed by a cartoon critical of Christian beliefs...
    What happened is that they showed the Jewish cartoon depicting a bomb with a fuse but when he attempted to show the Jesus cartoon the lady interviewer literally jumped from the screaming in her earpiece to not show the cartoon. After trying to regain her composure she continued with the interview which was very awkward with the 5 second delay.
    Later they did crop the Jesus cartoon and showed it for 3 seconds.





    edit:
    To be shocked in thinking I have exploited the holocast dead in cartoons is to miss the point that only the living can speak for the dead. If we do so in a way that instructs more than it inflames I believe some good has been done. Like beauty, anger is in the heart of the beholder. If I am entirely wrong then I have wasted most of my life in speaking out against lost causes.


    09 Feb 06 - 09:18 AM (#1665190)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    Little Hawk,

    I do the who benefits thinking but come to completely different results as you do.

    Wolfgang


    09 Feb 06 - 01:01 PM (#1665330)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    Tariq Ramadan (a European Muslim) has this to say:

    Of course it started with a few people being hurt by the cartoons. But then a few people took the cartoons to the Middle East. Some governments there were very happy to present themselves as the great champions of Islam. One reason, of course, was to gain legitimacy in the eyes of their own people. But secondly, it was to direct the attention of the people, living under these dictatorial governments, toward the West and to provide their people with a vent for their own frustrations. And it worked -- it became Muslims against the West.

    I rather follow this analysis than yours, Little Hawk. The European Muslims are more or less absent when it comes to violent protests against the cartoons. Greg has said it in this or one of the other threads. It is not a very important question for them. Some, even many, may have felt offended, but like the vast majority of Christians in a similar case did shrug the shoulder and went on with life. That lack of violent reaction was a positive surprise. There may be a second reason for their lack of reaction. They were fully informed by the press about the pictures and could see with their own eyes how harmless most of them were. The false propaganda that Mohammed had been depicted in the newspaper having intercourse with an animal that has been spread in some Muslim countries with the intention to whip up hatred couldn't work in an environment in which people have access to the correct information.

    Wolfgang


    09 Feb 06 - 01:38 PM (#1665339)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Amos

    Yes he is. I believe he might just be typical of the species.
    (Martin)


    Uh, Martin, if I may point it out, that is your own -- and my -- species, too -- nu? And the exceptions far outnumber any typicality I think you mean.

    A


    09 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM (#1665447)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Just to clarify, Lonesome, my statement re: "moderates who want peace" above was an observation of a lamentable situation, not a directive.


    09 Feb 06 - 04:42 PM (#1665453)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: bfdk

    I was thinking about writing an update from "the Danish front", but then I came across this link, which really has most of the information I wanted to pass on to you all.

    Best wishes,

    Bente


    09 Feb 06 - 04:49 PM (#1665461)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Lonesome EJ

    I understand, Cluin. My statement was in the same vein.


    09 Feb 06 - 04:50 PM (#1665463)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: ToulouseCruise

    Hey look... my alma mater got into the frey... bunch of idiots.... sure, there is freedom of the press and freedom of discussion, but this (IMO) was purely to rattle cages...

    UPEI Publishes the Cartoons...


    09 Feb 06 - 05:04 PM (#1665479)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Clinton Hammond

    Cathy... Garfield.... Andy Cap.... PEANTUS!

    FKN Family Circus!!!!!

    Those are 'cartoons' worth rioting over!


    09 Feb 06 - 05:31 PM (#1665501)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Cluin

    Agreed! I'd burn a building or two if it meant they'd take that stupid "Cathy" strip out of the local rag.


    09 Feb 06 - 05:36 PM (#1665504)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Clinton Hammond

    ZIGGY!

    Gah!!!

    I'd step on a grandmothers NECK to stop that stupid strip


    09 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM (#1665613)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Donuel

    It might sell...

    http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/burkamobile.jpg


    09 Feb 06 - 08:23 PM (#1665637)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    Let's add to that list... Nancy!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And Mary Worth.


    09 Feb 06 - 08:39 PM (#1665648)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST

    Thanks, Toulouse, for that link. I'm surprised that this comment, "All the major media organizations in Canada have refused to reprint the images, many arguing that to reprint them is to add insult to injury." Maybe this attitude is uniquely Canadian. Maybe, just maybe, we actually do have an identity. It mirrors my feelings, exactly.

    Why is it that some people feel that they have to prove a point no matter what the effect might be? Seems to me its just asking for conflict.


    09 Feb 06 - 08:40 PM (#1665650)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST

    Hey! Its me, dianavan, and I did print my name in the From box.


    09 Feb 06 - 08:44 PM (#1665651)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Donuel

    2 months ago I brought up the comic Phantom, a white guy raised in Africa who foils plots in the middle east. I have some very old exerpts from that comic book which if hyped by Mullahs in Syria Afghanistan and Iran would easily be an excuse for riots and arson.


    09 Feb 06 - 10:18 PM (#1665699)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: jaze

    One thing to note. I've read that Islam(not the Koran) forbids depicting the prophet Muhammed for fear of it becoming idolatry. But does not this law apply to only Muslims? The Danish journalists I take it, were not Muslims and so therefore not bound by Muslim laws. Does Islam follow the laws and rules of say, Catholicism? Just wondering. Now I can understand that it was not in the best of taste, nor what we would consider politically correct, but should those journalists be bound to religious laws that don't apply to them?


    10 Feb 06 - 12:49 AM (#1665789)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: LadyJean

    Turkish Muslims tell stories of Nassir ed Din Hodja, a real Muslim cleric from the middle ages. They're pretty damned funny. There are some funny stories in "The Arabian Nights" too. Many of them quite ribald.
    It's only recently that the Muslim world abandoned yuks.
    When Muslim clerics objected to "The Satanic Verses" Salman Rushdie had to go into hiding.
    When the Pope complained about "The DaVinci Code", Dan Brown probably cried all the way to the bank.
    I hope to gracious no one from the Christian Right takes inspiration from these people. Imagine if, the next time some television show makes tasteless jokes about Christ, their offices were vandalized, or network affiliates were firebombed, or cable and satellite companies were attacked.
    My favorite cartoon on the terrorist virgin theme, was Jules Pfeiffer's after 9/11. Satan meets the terrorist to show him his new house, a doll house, his new car, a toy car, and his virgins, all penned up and baaing, as a flock of goats is wont to do.


    10 Feb 06 - 11:33 AM (#1666103)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,Iran Jack

    If you fear the terrorists to the point of censoring our won cartoons -
    They have already won.

    Picture of organizing stuff lying around the barracks...
    http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/brokeback.jpg


    10 Feb 06 - 11:40 AM (#1666115)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,Outraged

    Muslim outrage? ... Let's do a little historical review. Just a few lowlights:

    Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City.
    No Muslim outrage.

    Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to
    escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim
    outrage.

    Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

    A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.

    Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways
    and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslim newspapers publish thousands of anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

    Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every
    one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their
    shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

    Muslims chop the head off of Daniel Pearl, a journalist on assignment in Pakistan. No Muslim outrage.

    Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.


    10 Feb 06 - 12:18 PM (#1666145)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,donuel

    http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/fallujafall.jpg


    no outrage here...move along


    10 Feb 06 - 01:02 PM (#1666199)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,more outraged than you

    Guest, Outraged - you are a practing bigot. In every incident that you mention, you could subsitute "male", "teenager" or "left-handed" instead of "Muslim". Instead, you chose to focus on the word "Muslim" because you are ignorant of the religion.   Yes, these incidents involved zealots who corrupted the teaching. The same can be said for Christians and Jews.

    If I called your mother a whore and said your father slept with pigs, would you strike out at me? Probably.


    10 Feb 06 - 01:12 PM (#1666204)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,outrageously outraged

    In general Muslim fanatics behead innocent people.

    The US military uses pin point surgical strikes, smart bombs, and invisible and oderless depleted Uranium to mutate generations to come with rightious impunity.


    10 Feb 06 - 01:15 PM (#1666205)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    In other words, they all murder...but each uses the maximum force he is capable of. The basic intent is the same.

    It's all terrorism.


    10 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM (#1666211)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,more outrageously outraged than anyone

    Who would be surprised if:


    Reports are sketchy in a very fluid situation but...
    Nulclear war has broken out in the Middle East purportedly over a cartoon found in a MAD magazine!
    US intelligence sources speculate that a Sept 2005 issue of MAD Magazine was misconstrued by high level Miltary Commanders in Pakistan to be a US goverment document regarding Mutually Assured Destruction. One particularly pointed cartoon of bin Laden outraged a Pakistani General who then arrested and killed Musaref.

    Although Iranian sources claim that the US had nuked Isreal the radioactive spectrum indicates it was a Pakistani device that first leveled Jerusalem.

    In retaliation the cities of Cairo, Tehran and Ramalangadingdong have been wiped from the map.


    10 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM (#1666257)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: robomatic

    This is redounding to the benefit of 'W' and the current US Administration whether we like it or not. Directing street violence at Northern Europeans based on mild satire is Orwellian in its implications of mass thought control. I'm bemused by the American government's rather passive stance as opposed to the Europeans. I can't decide if it's a case of tit for tat because of lack of mainland Europe's support on Iraq, or a positively Machiavellian view that it's worth having Europeans take some Islamic heat for the time being.


    10 Feb 06 - 02:46 PM (#1666277)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,outraged

    Guest, Outraged - you are a practing bigot. In every incident that you mention, you could subsitute "male", "teenager" or "left-handed" instead of "Muslim".

    Every incident listed was committed in the name of Islam and was committed without outrage from the Islamic world about attrocities committed in its name.

    As an American, I have stood up and demonstrated against the illegal war in Iraq and against the lies of the Bush administration. I am outraged that we went to war, and about the thousands of lives lost on all sides, and that Bush justified his oil war on lies.

    If I was a Muslim, I'd be outraged that Daniel Pearl was murdered in the name of my religion. But hey, that's just me.


    10 Feb 06 - 02:56 PM (#1666281)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,more outraged than you

    Guest,Outraged - you just don't get it.   Do we denounce Christians because Hitler killed Jews?   You aren't looking at the individual incidents. You blame a religion because it is more convenient than dealing with your own issues.


    10 Feb 06 - 03:06 PM (#1666292)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,donuel

    robomatic, I'm surprised that you are considering Orwellian conspiritorial propoganda techniques. There was a time you would not go there.

    btw outrage, I do condemn the Pope and involved Christians for their complicity in the Holocaust. So did the prior Pope. You can count on the current Pope however to be much less sympathetic.
    ...........




    PS
    the current atmosphere at NIH
    http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/beeker.jpg


    10 Feb 06 - 03:09 PM (#1666293)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,outraged

    If Hitler killed Jews in the name of Christianity, than it should have been the job of every Christian to stand up and be outraged.

    I do not, in any way, shape or form, blame all Muslims for the acts that I cited. I am outraged that so many are silent when such attrocities are committed in their name, yet they can not remain silent in the face of a few cartoons.

    That is my point.

    In my, not so humble opinion, no cartoon, no matter how insulting, is worth such outrage.

    However, every innocent death demands it.


    10 Feb 06 - 03:31 PM (#1666308)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Lonesome EJ

    In other words, they all murder...but each uses the maximum force he is capable of. The basic intent is the same.

    It's all terrorism.


    As they say in England, LH, Bollocks.

    Intent is indeed a determining factor. Let's apply the "Perfect Weapon Test" to the Muslim bombers, and to US forces in Iraq. This exercise says "if this person or persons was equipped with the perfect weapon to achieve his goals, what would that weapon do?"
    The goal of a suicide bomber is to take his own life as well as the greatest numbers of infidels possible. His perfect weapon would be one which would cause the most death to those infidels around him, and his interest is not in their degree of guilt or sinfulness. He's going to take every body in a 100 square mile area if he has the perfect weapon.
    The goal of an American bomber pilot in Iraq is different. His primary interest is not in causing indiscriminate destruction. In fact, that is counterproductive to his aim. That's why they call it "peripheral damage". His interest is in killing enemy combatants. His perfect weapon would kill a nest of Al Qaeda operatives or Saddam loyalists, while injuring no women, children, or innocent people.
    In the real world, there are no perfect weapons, granted. The nature of guerilla warfare is always such that the innocent suffer. But to say that the suicide bomber and the bomber pilot have the same intent is just more of the "how can you condemn a person's bad behavior when we are all basically bad" argument. Even in the clearest-cut scenarios of human struggle, let's say the D-Day Invasion of Hitler's Europe, innocent people were caught in the bombing and crossfire of American, British, and Canadian troops. But their intent was to liberate, not to destroy them. To say that Canada's D-Day troops and Hitler's SS had the same intent would be a statement that revealed no basic moral or ethical perception in the speaker.
    The strategy that put American troops in Iran may be questionable. The impact of those troops may even be negative. But their intent, I believe, is moral.


    10 Feb 06 - 07:58 PM (#1666480)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: michaelr

    Every few thousand years some shepard inhales smoke from a burning bush and has a vision or eats moldy rye bread in a cave and sees God. From then on their followers kill one another at the slightest provocation. Haunted houses called temples are built by one side and torn down by another - and then bloody quarrels continue over the crumbling foundations.

    Organized religion preaches Order and Love but spawns Chaos and Fury. Why?


    10 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM (#1666499)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,dianavan

    Lonesome EJ says, "But their intent, I believe, is moral."

    Killing, in my opinion, is entirely immoral. It doesn't really matter if its a suicide bomber or an American bomber pilot. The goal is to kill and innocent people are killed by both.


    11 Feb 06 - 07:09 AM (#1666725)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Donuel

    michaelr, I have personally never known a spititual experience or epiphany of my own or anyone else's to cause them to want to kill in the name of God.
    There are social psychopaths or people who misuse the power of an established culture or nation to do great harm, but it is nearly always done to reap perceived wealth and treasure.

    Sometimes the stolen treasure does benefit the victors and the world.
    Most times it does not.


    12 Feb 06 - 04:37 PM (#1667037)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    The freedom to do satire and cartoons has been long fought for in may countries. In my country, Germany, most of the left caricaturists and writers have been in conflict with the blasphemy law at least once: Heinrich Heine, Bert Brecht, Otto Dix, Kurt Tucholsky, George Grosz, Kurt Weill,...

    George Grosz did a famous cartoon showing Jesus at the cross with a gas mask in 1929 and the court case ended with a draw. Tucholsky, the greatest of them, commented then: "A religion that has blessed the battles of the Great War has lost the right to feel insulted". And one of his famous lines was: "What is allowed to satire? Everything."

    Of course, this freedom was lost during the totalitarian Nazi regime and was fought to get back in the late 1960s. Totalitarian regimes (and belief systems are afraid of satire. In 1992 an Iranian caricaturist was sentenced to 10 years for a cartoon showing war-disabled Mullahs at a game of football.

    Totalitarian thinkers are afraid of laughter. That's why we need laughter, and in particular laughter about them and about what is dear to them.

    Wolfgang


    12 Feb 06 - 04:53 PM (#1667041)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    Amazing how many here support and take sides with Muslim 7th century mentality in the name of tolerance.

    Just fucking amazing.


    12 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM (#1667071)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: jaze

    So are war and eternal hatred the only way to deal with differences? Surely you don't believe that, Martin.


    12 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM (#1667133)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Once Famous

    No, I do not.

    But with all of the talk and rhetoric, just what is being accomplished that is effective?


    12 Feb 06 - 08:34 PM (#1667144)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: jaze

    Well, I kind of think what is needed is a strong and decisive world body(with BALLS) that will take action to prevent genocide, famine and fanatical regimes in a fair but decisive manner. That way the US wouldn't feel "compelled" to police the world. This body should be supported by world governments but be able to quickly decide to take action when necessary. I can have my dreams, can't I?


    13 Feb 06 - 05:07 PM (#1667554)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    The Iran demands an apology from a German newspaper for printing a caricature of the Iranian football team. The caricaturist has received by now three different death threats.

    Something is very wrong in these heads.

    Wolfgang


    13 Feb 06 - 05:13 PM (#1667563)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    I'm in full agreement with you on every point, Wolfgang.

    "Totalitarian thinkers are afraid of laughter. That's why we need laughter, and in particular laughter about them and about what is dear to them."

    Well said!


    13 Feb 06 - 07:10 PM (#1667674)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: autolycus

    should point out that there was a Muslims-protesting -against -the-muslim-extremists march in London last Saturday without major incident.

    Rank-and-file Muslims (if you'll forgive me putting it like that) do highly resent Islam being hijacked by extremists. Unfortunately, peaceful demonstrations tend not to be publicised round the world.

    Anmd I keep hearing on BBC radio that Islam is at bottom a peaceful and tolerant religion.

    michaelr. You ask why religion preaches peace and spawns fury. Well. we've had a whole thread (Religion=good people doing bad things?" - hope I've got that right) and the answer to you're question was amazingly ambivalent and arguable.

    Maybe the answer is to differentiate as sharply as possible between all religions and their adherents.

    Good night.

    Auto.


    13 Feb 06 - 07:14 PM (#1667680)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    If 100 people hold a peaceful demonstration, you won't hear much about it. If 1 person robs a downtown store and breaks some windows, it's front page news tomorrow.


    13 Feb 06 - 08:08 PM (#1667753)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Mr Happy

    'the more things change, the more they remain the same..'



    Plot Summary for
    The Fistic Mystic (1947)

    Popeye and Olive enter the city of Badgag and spot Bluto doing magic tricks. He hypnotizes Olive like a snake charmer. Bluto introduces himself as the Great Bourgeois and gives Olive a fancy dress, turns Popeye into a donkey, and sits on a bed of nails. Popeye pounces on the bed and turns it into springs. The boys next compete in snake charming; Popeye blows a hornpipe on his pipe. Bluto next turns Popeye into a parrot. Bluto then locks Olive in a basket and does the sword trick; Olive escapes and gives parrot Popeye his spinach, which revives him. Bluto escapes with the rope trick and a flying carpet, but Popeye uses his pipe like a rocket to get aloft. Another battle, with Popeye using Bluto's own magic to turn Bluto into a canary. Popeye and Olive fly the carpet home, past the Statue of Liberty.


    13 Feb 06 - 08:25 PM (#1667774)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Amos

    Actually, my view of the perfect weapon in American hands would kill no-one -- simply put them to sleep for, say, 120 hours, during which time their regime can be straightened out, or whatever the stupid goal is, and their weapons melted down into manufactured farm implements.

    A


    13 Feb 06 - 10:41 PM (#1667849)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Little Hawk

    But...that's what most of the rest of the World would like to do with the USA... (grin)


    14 Feb 06 - 06:59 AM (#1668009)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Ron Davies

    Found this by Irshad Manju, author of "The Trouble With Islam Today".

    Thought it puts it pretty well.

    "When Muslims put the prophet on a pedestal, we are engaging in idolatry of our own. The point of monotheism is to worship one God. not God's emissaries. Which is why humility requires people of faith to mock themselves--and each other--once in a while."

    Then he also offers this, his illustration of the technique.

    A rabbi, a priest and a mullah meet at a conference about religion, and afterwards are sitting around discussing their different faiths. The conversation turns to the topic of taboos. The priest says to the mullah and the rabbi: "You guys can't tell me that you've never eaten pork". "Never!" intones the rabbi. "Absolutely not!" insists the mullah. But the priest is skeptical. "Come on, not even once?" Maybe in a fit of rebellion, when you were younger?" "OK" confesses the rabbi. "When I was young, I once nibbled on bacon". "I admit it", the mullah laughs-- (not excessively- Islam has a teaching against "excessive laughter".) " In a fit of youthful arrogance, I sampled a pork chop".

    The conversation turns to the priest's religious observances. "You can't tell me you've never had sex" says the mullah. The priest protests: "Of course not! I took a vow of chastity". The mullah and rabbi roll their eyes. "Maybe after a few drinks?" the rabbi teases. The mullah wonders "Perhaps, in a moment of temptation, your faith waned?" "OK," the priest confesses, "Once, when I was in seminary school, I had sexual relations with a woman".

    "Beats pork, huh?" say the mullah and the rabbi.


    14 Feb 06 - 07:38 AM (#1668028)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Donuel

    Slap my head and call me Sally... We must puit a stop to Popeye http://www.glumbert.com/media/rave.html



    Mr. Happy, If we bring this Popeye cartoon to the attention of certain Mullahs I am sure we can get a fatwa pronounced against Robin Williams who most recently portrayed Popeye.


    14 Feb 06 - 09:53 AM (#1668121)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: Wolfgang

    And four murder threats against you and a demand of a public apology from Max.

    Wolfgang


    14 Feb 06 - 06:08 PM (#1668572)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: autolycus

    Has anybody else seen a photo of our solar system, or galaxy - something like that - with an arrow pointing to where we are.

    Our planet is vanishingly small.

    Do you think looking at a photo like that, meditating on it, and any consequences worth us all doing?

    Might we get our problems in any kind of proportion?


    Alternatively, perhaps alaws should be passed banning self-confessed fundamentalkists (hm?) from viewing any material that they might be offenfded by.

    Aha, so BLISS could be achieved by the standard means. By glorious IGNORANCE.

    I mean, why sell stuff to people who are going to choose to be offended. The refusal would be for the best of reasons, so people don't get distressed.

    Couldn't it be compulsory on things like passports for "fundamentalist"to be added to the data.

    Or we could deal with two probs together by getting out of oil fast, thus responding to the fundamentalist problem and the future of that big, chunky lump of rock that seems important to us, what's it called, ohhhh, that thing that's like a spouse, can't live with it, can't live ...............

    Auto.


    15 Feb 06 - 02:51 PM (#1669604)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST

    cartoons that ain't funny ain't cartoons


    06 Mar 06 - 09:48 PM (#1686908)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST

    URUYI


    06 Mar 06 - 10:11 PM (#1686919)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: heric

    EIEIO


    07 Mar 06 - 08:06 AM (#1687161)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,donuel

    The latest message from bin Laden and his Egyptian pal
    "They steal our oil, invade our countries and then make fun of Allah in their cartoons"

    They are actually bringing cartoons into their plan to encourage blowing up the Saudi Arabian oil reserves and processing plants.


    "cartoons that ain't funny aren't cartoons"

    Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Some are a mirror that may reflect darkly or ironicly.
    Some can be a hammer that can pound home a truth and shape the mind set of society. But the laughter they produce in is proportion to one's understanding of the underlying truth cartoons illuminate.



    Parody songs are cartoons too.

    My tune regarding our "addiction"

    When you fuel up your car
    you know you won't go that far
    Oleen
    When we import the oil
    Muslim blood starts to boil
    Oleen
    we want gas we want gas we want gas...
    oline

    For all the flags that wave
    it is the oil we crave
    Oleen
    For all the smog you've seen
    there is a dead Marine
    Oleen
    We want gas we want gas we want gas
    oline.

    When we pay the gas bill
    we're so broke we could kill
    Oleen.
    All the oil companies
    have brought us to our knees
    Oleen.
    We want gas we want gas we want
    oline.


    08 Mar 06 - 07:50 AM (#1688159)
    Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
    From: GUEST,Neeraj

    Oh i have seen that this was totally bad feeling but the other communitee should think about their reactions like this.