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BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?

05 Jan 03 - 09:18 PM (#859493)
Subject: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,A. Nonnie-Nonnie

Sorry for the annonie but I'd rather people answer this question than go after my ass personally.

Are there any Mudcat veterans out there who'd be as interested in this site today, as they were when they first came here. I used to like the political discussions but it just seems like nobody has any fresh approaches to the issues. I KNOW what most old-timers think, and I don't know the newbies well enough to CARE what they think.

There are still some interesting Music threads but so much of the information has been discussed in huge detail before. Once again it may just be that I've been here too long, but when you remember some fascinating thread really going into detail about some aspect of folk-music, and then you see a new one started with a completely wrong or superficial premise.....well sometimes it just takes too much effort to jump in and try to set it straight. It's not the newbies fault, it's just a bit of human nature rearing it's head.

Of course it could just be PMS.

A Nonnie-nonnie

05 Jan 03 - 09:24 PM (#859498)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: mg

I'm not an old-timer by any means but sure.


05 Jan 03 - 09:41 PM (#859505)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Banjer

Back when I first got hooked on the mUdcat there was more of a humorous spirit. Discussions weren't as dark as many today seem to be, but yes, I would still allow myself to get hooked.

05 Jan 03 - 10:10 PM (#859513)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: gnu

Yup... the humour was better, but that's a challenge for each of us, no ? Rise up ! I came here seeking knowledge and would still come because the knowledge of the 'Cats is infinte... if it's not in the Digitrad, it's in some 'Cat somewhere. How could you not get hooked ?

05 Jan 03 - 10:17 PM (#859516)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Yeah, I drop in ocassionaly, now days...less and I see my sparing partners....less and less.

There is NOTHING, currently available, in this present par-mutation, this "cist on the breast"....that would have previously endured me to so ademently defend the Digital Tradition repository....the original I knew it pre-millenium....Max has marital problems, he needs money, the dot-coms have gone bust....give me hitsor I might go bust...(but there is life in ftp and it is abundant, fresh and pure.

Botton-Line...if it were not for the genius of Susan and Dick....I would not continue lurking in bottom-most sump-hole of this putrid hell-hole....seeking one additional bit/bite/byte to add to my own collection of Digital/ORAL Traditions

In its hay-day this was tresure-trove of forgotten lyrics and tunes.

Today, it is a caccaphony of divergent voices.


OK....fess up....who is the real SOB that is getting their doctorial in "abnormal psychology" from the protracted precesence of this forum?

05 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM (#859521)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: gnu

Thanks for dripping in Gar, your comments are always so unsightly.

05 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM (#859522)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Nope///bottum line...Nope....I would not have stayed...if it was today.


05 Jan 03 - 10:23 PM (#859523)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: gnu

But.... you will stay, no.... ? gee, sometimes it gets.... well.. you know.

05 Jan 03 - 10:23 PM (#859524)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Ya ... know...

Come to think of it...NO ONE ...I respected is around today...they 've ALL gone away...

I feel a little like Peter Pan.


05 Jan 03 - 11:03 PM (#859537)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: DonMeixner

Yes it would.

So what if we are a bunch of folk music geeks and many of are hacks. So what if pure scholarship is rare. So what if we can't agree on politics, political correctness, religion, phylosophy, or speling.
I'd rather spend time with most of these people here in who I don't agree with than many people I have meet in my life with no passion for living.

Like the wise man said, " A bad day of fishing in the rain is better than a sunny day at work anytime."


05 Jan 03 - 11:11 PM (#859538)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: gnu

Okay, I agree. Don't have to twist my thread.

05 Jan 03 - 11:21 PM (#859544)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Deckman

Absolutly! While it has changed somewhat since I first joined, it remains an ever evolving, vibrant site. I have learned so much from MUDCAT that I feel I should pay someone a huge sum. I do believe that this represents the very best of Bill Gates original concept regarding a "puter" in everyone's home. While the binding interest is traditional folk music, there is also so much more. For example, I now finally have a correct translation of a Finnish song I sing; I now know where Mary Garvy is; I have given people all over the world opportunities to correct my spelling; and I have located several missing folksinging friends. CHEERS and thanks MAX. Bob(deckman)Nelson

05 Jan 03 - 11:43 PM (#859550)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Jeri

Ooh, look out - here comes the essay.

I honestly don't know if I'd hang around or join. I came here in the midst of the the Catspaw crisis. I found a bunch of truly kind people. The place was full of musical savants as well as wit and warmth. The discussions were uplifting. We seemed to respect one another more - maybe because we didn't know each other well enough to have gotten on each other's nerves, maybe because we tried to show our best side here. I don't know.

I don't care for the political discussions. I didn't mind them previously and would occasionally join in. Of course, there were usually only a couple going on at any given time and they seemed secondary to the music. Now, it seems like some people only come to show off debating skills and see how many times they can rephrase the same ideas. Seems like the rule of the day is, if you don't know squat about music, have no sense of humor, dislike people in general but have a desperate need to be heard, you can still talk politics. It's about ego, not communication.

The sort of things that grew out of Mudcat have withered. Annamill's gatherings and other types of personal meetings and events just don't happen anymore - at least not with the same frequency and the same carefree feeling. You'd invite folks to your house who share a love of music. You don't want to get together with those you've been saying nasty things about in the latest bitch thread(s).

I know some of the folks I've told about Mudcat come in and look and leave without a second thought. Seems like the people who stay are those who either have a history here they don't want to give up, are hanging around waiting for the occasional gem or just like fighting.

As to the "we discussed that before" thing, I've seen it happen in real life and on newsgroups. I think the way it's supposed to work is new folks come and learn (or already know). Eventually, the same questions are asked but someone new answers. I think here, many of the newcomers aren't that interseted in folk music so they don't learn, know or care. The same folks often asnwer the same question over and over. Of course, it may just be a perception. The old-timers may just think they have to answer a question because they answered it the last time. They may not believe anyone else will jump in.

I sound awfully cynical. I just don't think there's much that would hold my attention if I just found it today, but it's hard to say. Can I imagine how I'd see Mudcat with fresh eyes or am I unable to separate myself from memories of the way the place was? I'm glad for the fact I came when I did. The feeling changes, the types of people who hang out here and the people themselves change. What I've learned about music, myself and life in general have changed me forever. The friends I've met here - some whom I know casually and some whom I love dearly - have changed me forever. Nothing ever stays the way we want it to but I think I miss the way Mudcat once was so much because it gave me so much.

05 Jan 03 - 11:51 PM (#859553)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Joe Offer

Well, yes, I'd still stick around. It's a little harder to find than it used to be, but Mudcat has a lot of the good, solid music information that I seek. In fact, with people like Masato and Malcolm (and several others) around, it has a lot more of the solid information than it used to have.
It has also been a good place to make friends, and I've made some darn good ones. It has also helped me learn where to find the music - both at home and when I'm traveling. Mudcat is certainly worth the time and money I've put into it.
-Joe Offer-

05 Jan 03 - 11:51 PM (#859555)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

Of course the productive course of action in such a situation is to whine about how bad it is instead of investing the effort in thinking of something that might be of interest. That would be just awfully hard, and male smoke come out of your various openings, so it's probably better you take on the important role of Critic. We all need that, don't we. And it isn't like just anyone can do it. No. It takes a certain sensibility to be a really good critic. I am sure you studies extensively and had to stay up late cramming for finals in such challenging courses as:
"Eastern and Western Styles of Bemoaning",
"High-Relief Carping in 20th Century English Speaking Peoples",
"Heavy and Light Counterpoint Whinging in Modern Groups",
"The Art of Shadowcasting" and
"The Future of Irreversible Glumness".   

Not to mention:

"Attributes of Discouragement and Its Promulgation"

and the lighterweight titles for extra credit like "The Invisible Bitcher" and "If You Can't Help Them, Rain On Their Parade: 101 Sure Fire Techniques for Making Anyone Feel Hopeless".

So you're obviously highly qualified and we should step back and let a small group of experts show us how it's done, right?


06 Jan 03 - 04:58 AM (#859624)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Cappuccino

I was hooked because, by chance, on my very first visit, I found something I'd been searching for for years.   

It has changed, sure. And the same old topics do come up, sure - well, in a subject like this, they're bound to. But - d'you remember the incredible surge of messages and threads on the day of the WTC attack?   There was nowhere like Mudcat on that day. It was the most incredible feeling of community. And when you have a question to ask, you get a lot of informed answers.

No complaints here.


06 Jan 03 - 05:00 AM (#859626)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: C-flat

I'm sure the new folk here (myself included) find this site as interesting as the old hands did when they first came to Mudcat. I suspect that after seeing the same questions pop up, again and again, I may feel less inclined to answer or contribute, but I'm not there yet!
This site still holds a great deal of warmth, despite a handful of aggressive egos, keen to make their views known, and I've "met" some genuinely interesting and "good" people here.
Mudcat will continue to evolve as it's active members rotate but I hope you old-hands keep looking in and sharing your wisdom and humour with the rest of us.

06 Jan 03 - 06:28 AM (#859649)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: fat B****rd

Most definitely. I came upon this site a couple of years ago while looking up some Leadbelly info. I became a member almost immediately and have been more or less a daily visitor ever since. I don't look at every thread but if I can help with anything or a thread catches my eye then I have no hesitationin joining in. I'm not outspoken or politically motivated but I love the divergence of topics available. The best aspects are (to myself) PMs from various people and the occasional exchange of tapes, info etc. Once again, MOST DEFINITELY

06 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM (#859670)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Rapparee

I found Mudcat about three months ago when I was looking for lyrics to a song that the Dictionary of American Biography said didn't exist -- that its lyrics had been lost (funny, I'd heard it recorded!). 'Catters found it. I explored the DT and found the lyrics to other songs I only partially knew. I looked into some of the threads.

I joined. Not out of ego (hell, there are folks here who make me look like I play with The Backstreet Boys), but because I could still learn stuff and, perhaps, cause someone somewhere to smile. (We need more of that, smiling.)

One night on Chat I mentioned that I am currently "between engagements." The support was terrific, far more than I've gotten from anyone else except my immediate family. Why?, I wondered, and then it hit me: folkies and bluesies sing about such things and all too often experience them themselves. Empathy....

I made some mistakes, such as responding to a "Guest" in a politcally-leaning thread (and the "Guest" responded in such a supercilious way that I suspect s/he was a one-L, a first year law student full of newly acquired information but no understanding, a true "sophos moros" -- and my wife, the attorney, agreed). So I now ignore threads that don't appeal to me and contribute where I think I might.

I shall continue; there are some swell folks here (as well as some legends, like Art Thieme, and I might have been too awed to join if I knew that he was a member!).

Sorry for the lengthy message.

06 Jan 03 - 07:17 AM (#859671)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: InOBU

Sure... a few observations... there were, once in my like a few songs that were my holy grail... songs I heard over the past many decades, that I could not find a word or two or the words to... all of which, I have found here. One, I had been writing to a prof at the University of Liverpool, a folklorist who put a grad student on the question as it haunted him as well, and sure enough, the answer turnd up on Mudcat. Where else could you find in the course of a few hours, the difinition of a middle jimp. In fact, in many ways Mudcat is getting more successful at creating a community of music as the triumph of the CD proves... Gargoyle! Do try and get the set, you will see the golden top edge of the clowds... the clowds. Yes, things are sometimes darker. The US has declared a war which it's leaders have said we will not see the end of... projecting seventy five years of world war. These are even darker times than when we set out together. When Ashcroft says generations to follow will sing ballads about the war we are setting out upon, well, at mudcat we are singing songs with hopes that there are other ways.... this is the people's media, folk music. and so yes, I would and will stay.

06 Jan 03 - 07:36 AM (#859676)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: artbrooks

Why not? The assumption that veterans are different from anyone else and have opinions that diverge significantly from the average human being's (or at least the average American/Canadian/UKer) is utter drivel.

06 Jan 03 - 07:37 AM (#859677)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Tiger

I would certainly stay if I just wandered in today. Still much to be learned. The data base and message threads have swelled tremendously, so that many more requests can be fulfilled with a search, rather than waiting for a response.

MUCH more stuff to be ignored, though, and there are a few members I just can't abide. But I don't let them know that - in fact, when the fur starts flying, I just opt out.

My only remorse is a sinking feeling that I was one of the progenitors of today's BS when I asked (exactly 4 years ago) "How old is a Mudcatter?" That sort of opened the floodgates.

06 Jan 03 - 08:13 AM (#859689)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: artbrooks

BTW, I read the question as pertaining to military veterans, and that was the question I answered. I apologize if the intention was otherwise, but the substance of my answer is the same...what would be the purpose of quiting/not visiting Mudcat because one dislikes some of the questions and participants? Is there a better source for discussions about music or about other topics with musically-oriented people...or even one that approaches the diversity of Mudcat. Jon Freeman's site is excellent for what it is, and the .ftp sites are out there, but I prefer this one.

I don't really see what there is about this question that inspires the asker to seek anonimity, unless this is just our friend ANON.GUEST trying to provoke outrage again.

06 Jan 03 - 08:35 AM (#859697)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Bill D

Mudcat is a window on the world...not the only one, of course, and often smudged and distorted. And the S/N (signal to noise) ratio is sure a lot worse these days, but wow, when good stuff happens, it is worth all the blather in between!

Like Jeri, I am appalled at how many come here JUST to argue politics or nit-pick at others...but I have my choice as to replying or not. I often feel that when I DO reply to a BS thread that I am hollering into the wind, but composing replies allows ME to refine my own thoughts....something I don't do when listening to the evening TV news or reading the paper. I can truly say I have typed more here in a few years than I did in 6 years of college and learned stuff I never had a chance to learn in college.

Since reading Mudcat is just a part of "surfing the 'net", I integrate it in ways I never imagined...both the folk music parts and general knowlege mixed with silliness. (Unlike some, I feel the world NEEDS more silliness and humor, and I have found more quick wit and genuine creative repartee' than almost anywhere!

To me, the Mudcat functions very much like the Delphic toss an idea or question in, and because of the "critical mass" of minds and wide divergence of views, you get back answers, ideas, viewpoints that either solve your problem or send you off in the right direction...ESPECIALLY if it is about music!

Sure I'd be hooked...and if I arrived today, I'd be spending weeks and months trying to read it all! ...and grumping all the while that it wasn't 'exactly' right.....*grin*

06 Jan 03 - 09:43 AM (#859731)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Ron Olesko

This should not become the old joke - how many folkies does it take to change a lightbulb? The answer 10 - one to change it and nine to talk about how much brighter the old bulb was.

Change happens. You can't stop it, everything evolves. Sure there are a lot of BS threads, but isn't that what happens when people become friends? This is a community, a community based on respect and a common interest. There is always a common bond that brings people together but once the friendship has started, nothing becomes off limits. You need that in order to maintain the original premise that brought people together in the first place as well as to strengthen and grow a relationship.

Instead of moaning about how things have changed, why not celebrate and expand the reasons that made Mudcat so attractive in the first place?   

The negative feeling that is the premise of this thread hurts the growth of Mudcat. Newcomers need to feel included, not ostracized because they asked a question that was discussed 2 years ago.   


06 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM (#859748)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: nutty

I'm with Ron ..... accept the changes. Every society changes as it grows.
It is the dissenters, the likes of A nonnie-nonnie and gargoyle, who refuse to stand up and be counted who do Mudcat no favours.
I am sad that you feel that the Mudcat of today has so little to offer ....but if that is the case, wouldn't it be better to just go away and find what you are looking for elsewhere (if you can).

I joined the folk scene during the revival (40 years ago) when everything was very new and exciting ..... today it has changed but I don't begrudge the young ones their place on the stage. I still find it an exciting place to be, as I do with Mudcat (3years on). I have seen first hand what in-fighting can do and regret that some friends felt that they had to leave when the "inner clique" wars were waging.
Good or bad Mudcat is part of my life because it isn't just a web site but a living and breathing community which you might become more involved in if you were to become members.

06 Jan 03 - 10:15 AM (#859750)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Wrote a song fooling around a few years ago... each verse started pretty much the same... "You know you're getting old when you start to say, I wonder what's the matter with kids today." Remember how much you hated it when your parents said that? How about, "You know you're getting old when you start to say, I wonder what's the matter with the music, today? Or people today, who don't want to work any more? Think up a generality of your own and the song could go on for hours. I wonder what's the matter with Mudcat today? I've only been on here a little over a year, and there is an initial fascination that we've all probably had that is very addictive. Very few things remain as exciting as they were when you first discovered them. But Mudcat will continue to re-invent itself. Mudchat was a great discovery, and I still enjoy stopping in for awhile almost every day. I've met many great people in there who I rarely run across in threads (inerestingly.) They'll remain friends, even if Mudcat passes into that great cyberspace in the sky.

There are times when I skim through the threads and find nothing of interest. Sometimes, like the thread about finding Mum's old love in America, are beautiful. They bring out the best in us. I don't see any postings in there of the chronic bitchers, though. I've often been tempted to start a Thread that said, "And another thing I Can't Stand.." It would probably hit a thousand postings."

I expect that Mudcat will be a part of my life for a long time. If I reach a point when I don't find anything of interest to me, I'll just say "Thanks for all of it, Max!" and move on.

Thanks for all of it, Max! But, I ain't ready to move on...)


06 Jan 03 - 10:21 AM (#859755)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: KingBrilliant

No - I think I'd be put off by the backbiting that goes on. Luckily I'm already hooked in & can ignore it.
Sometimes I leave it alone for a while & let absence make the heart grow fonder - same as with physical gatherings. Some days it feels fresher and more alluring than others.
There's plenty of nice people around here, and its worth hanging around.


06 Jan 03 - 10:36 AM (#859767)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Steve in Idaho

What artbrooks said - Me too - I'm not entering into many of the discussions and have been unable to do the music thing for a lot of reasons (PalTalk). But if I want to find a song or chords - this is my resource. I'd stay for that.


06 Jan 03 - 10:36 AM (#859768)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?


Sure things evolve, just don't much like what this has evolved into

06 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM (#859790)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Willie-O

I referred someone hear last week and they were pleased with what they found, especially with the DT.

After four or five years, a lot of stuff in the Forum seems the same, but if I came here for the first time today, it would be new, wouldn't it? And the forum combined with the DT is still a great repository of knowledge that will help anyone with an actual musical enquiry. I know some of MY most respected sources of info are certainly still here and quick to answer a query.   There is a lot of useless crap which I mostly ignore unless in a serious time-killing mode; that's what subject lines are for, ennit?

Furthermore, the recent upgrades to the site have been great, especially the measures for breaking long threads into manageable chunks, and the automatic linebreaks in posts. A godsend to us dialup users, not to mention those who pay by the minute for a connection. THANKS AGAIN MAX!!!

Long live Mudcat. Pox on spam.


06 Jan 03 - 11:01 AM (#859795)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Joe Offer

Hi, Rapaire, you've got me curious - what song did you find here that was supposed to have been forever lost?
I tried searching for the request you posted, but didn't find it - and now I'm frustrated. Maybe that's why Mudcat continues to "hook me in" - it stimulates my curiosity endlessly. I have to find out the rest of the story - of the songs, and of us people who love them.
-Joe Offer-

06 Jan 03 - 11:20 AM (#859814)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Dave Bryant

I first came onto the site when Dick moved the DT here. I tended to use it for information and searching for songs and up to a couple of years ago just came in as a guest. I find it a lot more than a resource these days and enjoy (and try to contribute to) some of the humourous threads as well as to many of the serious ones.

I do notice a lot more members from the UK these days and sometimes wonder if we (plus our penal colony in Hull) are changing the balance somewhat - especially with the proliferation of PEL threads. I've introduced quite a few new members to the Cat and most of them seem to find it both useful and fun.

06 Jan 03 - 11:35 AM (#859829)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos


One of the changes is definitely an increase in the voices from UK side. Musically, this is something to celebrate since there is such a depth of knowleedge and history into our ANglo Saxon musical roots. On the other hand, the humour which they add often escapes me, and muddies things up for me -- it is either too subtle for me, or it calls on a very different context than I am accustomed to culturally, or perhaps it really is shallow and banal when it seems that way. But you know what? I don't care, because these are my kind of people -- singers and musicians -- and I am glad to have a common cyberlocale to share with them even if I do not always understand their jokes. It is fun to bedivided by a common language, actually :>)!

I do call on those who feel critical of the atmosphere on the 'Cat to take responsibility for contributing what they feel would be better, instead of jerking off with their ugly little critiques. It adds nothing to the community. The key question is, "What are you going to do about it?". And, "Will that improve things?". You are capable humans and are just as empowered to add to the tone around here as anyone on the list, so quit whining, guys.


06 Jan 03 - 11:35 AM (#859830)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Jeri

Jerry, "And another thing I can't stand" - there have been quite a few of those and I think they probably total over a thousand posts!

As for my version of War & Peace up there, I was trying to stick to my own feelings about things and not just bitch about the things. More "I feel" than "Mudcat is."   The jist of it is, I can't say how I'd feel if I came here as a newbie, just like I can't imagine what I'd think of cheese if I only tasted it for the first time today. I can tell you that I miss the new taste of cheese and how it used to be a lot less processed and a lot stinkier than it is today.

Sometimes I wonder if I'd enjoy a complete memory wipe and go back to see everything in life with unjaded eyes. Then I wake up and remember all the good experiences with 'everything in life' and resolve to try to find something new to get interested in. There's always something new and it may just be that willingness to seek it that's missing.

06 Jan 03 - 12:17 PM (#859868)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: John Hardly

I've been here (off and on) for 2.5 years. I've learned lots from the collective musical knowledge here (and learned whose knowledge of music is best ignored).

I learned rather early on that mine was a voice best checked at the door where technical musical information was concerned. My "Folk" music knowledge is about as old as my CD/LP collection -- lots of "folk rock" and everything recorded by Tony Rice, Tim O'Brien, NGR, NBB, songwriters from David Mallett to Carter/Grammer, Pettis, Booth, Wilcox, Gilbert, Mabus, Booth,etc..... but no Stanley Bros, no obscure Jim and Jesse or Big Mon LPs in my closet. I had little to offer but a chord chart here and there and lyric or two -- but most of those requests were for things that predate my experience.

My "creative writing" always falls down a deep well of disinterest here because.....well, when you have really good creative writers like jenEllen, Amos, LJ, PeterT, kat (sorry to leave others out -- I know it kinda hurts, but chalk it up to how little I read here any more, not the level of your writing!), one should approach the "submit" button with humility and trepidation. I have posted lots of this kind of thing (more "creative writing") on the 'Cat in the past year because -- response be damned, I got the wild idea in my head that, given what I thought was a community with strong intent on its long-term survival, this might be a good place to "store" some pieces I had written for another forum that had decided to clear out all its old files. Selfish li'l bastard, ain't I?

I learned that Mudcat is not a social club/outlet for me. I came in after the social structure of what passes for a community here was set. Whatever contributionn I may have been capable of adding to the mix (socially) was already ably handled. Took a while and a few hurt feelings (me being overly sensitive) to finally grasp that.

Like others, I am sometimes disappointed at just how frighteningly small the pool of contributors has become -- not just here, but in internet forums. I fear they are fast becoming the domain of a class of more educated, but socially inhibited, or otherwise limited missfits. Kind of a high-tech Loserville.

So, yes, I'd probably still log on.....but I'd just like to think that I could do so with the lessons already learned.....not starting all over.'s mighty hard to just stay away *BG*

06 Jan 03 - 12:19 PM (#859871)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,A. Nonnie-Nonnie

Hello Artbrooks. No No no! I assure you I'm not one of our anon. flamers. The J-Lo clones know I've never planted a bomb (of the verbal kind) in my life, and like all clear-thinking folk here, I adore Max simply for existing. My mommie always told me to be polite to EVEYONE, so my couple of forays into annimoniminity have been primarily to throw out a topic that's obviously been on my mind, or simply therapeutic.

However, I have been shaken to my very core! It would appear that the only person of veteran status who agrees with me is the dreaded Gargoyle! THAT'll put you off your feed quicker than seeing Ned Beatty in his underwear! Or Burt Reynolds in your backyard with a hunting bow!

I'll behave.

A. Nonnie-nonnie

06 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM (#859873)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

John Hardly, fie on your self deprecation!! I have seen your writing and it stands right along with anything the Cat has spawned, although I agree that PT and JE are capable of transcendant glories when they really start mixing it up. It is normal enough to be one's own worst critic, sure, but given that there are so many others anxious for the position, why not head for the high ground and be your own source of moral support and encouragement?!! Surely no-one is better qualified! :>)


06 Jan 03 - 12:24 PM (#859876)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: MMario

I imagine I would still end up here if I hadn't found it a long time ago.

And garg? you still are having problems distinguishing between the Digital Tradition and Mudcat.

06 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM (#859880)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Pied Piper

"Somethings lost and somethings gained in living every day"

06 Jan 03 - 12:34 PM (#859885)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?

i doubt it

06 Jan 03 - 12:36 PM (#859887)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,Geordie

I have been popping in and out of here for ages. And I find it a great place..I have learned so much and never cease to be amazed at the scope of expertise that is here. I learn a lot for many threads, ot just the musical ones.
   As for the so called"off topic" discussions, I don't mind them because is the thread dosen't interest me, I don't open it.

06 Jan 03 - 12:40 PM (#859891)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Tinker

Would Mudcat hook me today? Well, I'm still here and still hooked. Like many others I'm not an expert on much musically, but that's what keeps bringing me back. As a rather slow learner,I can pull out old guitar threads I didn't quite understand a couple years ago and pick up something new when I've got the time to play. The new cross reference really helps in this regard. It often points me to a thread I've missed.

I've made some amazing friends. Oh, and for all the tiffs, with mudcat as my introduction to the world of folk, I was actually surprised to find out that blues singers,and traditional ballad types, renfair musicians, and shanty singers didn't always share song circles and -- gasp even cabins together. I may not often post to serious threads, but, I'm lurking....

06 Jan 03 - 12:58 PM (#859904)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Glen Reid

For the past 3 or 4 years, Rick F. has mentioned the virtues and the sense of community that is available on Mudcat. He also encouraged me to join and become a participant in the disscussions and shared info related to our craft, or whatever might be of interest.
Its been less than a year since I joined and for the most part its still a lot of fun to check in and see whats happening.Of course there,s a lot of stuff that is of no interest to me (politics and BS, for the most part) but the nice thing about this forum is...
Take what you want, and leave the rest!
I have met a lot of facinating and informative folks of every stripe and have learned a hell of a lot good stuff.
Most importantly I disscovered in Mudcat, an honest sense of family and compassion.
Like when Little John Cameron was sick, and sadly passed on, the outpouring of support, then genuine grief, was very evident in the posts that followed.
Or when Rick had his operation and was on the mend, the sheer number of "get wells" , was most touching, and I know, certainly gave him a big lift.
These are some of the reasons I continue to tune in and I am gratfull to Max,Dick,Joe and all of the other faceless people who obviously work hard to keep this thing happening.
Thankyou and all the best,

06 Jan 03 - 12:58 PM (#859905)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Jeri: I've always thought that your postings were interesting and positive, and I've gained a lot from them. As for the "taste" of things changing through time, sometimes they really have, and sometimes, we're the ones who have changed. Like you, I wouldn't give up the wonder of the first "taste" of anything, but I try not to look back, except in appreciation. And, when someone thinks that they've tasted everything, it's time to check their pulse. You strike me as someone who is still ver live and open to new experiences.

As for our Brit friends, I've noticed often that when I go on Mudchat, even though it's a reasonable hour of the evening here, there are aonly a handufl of regulars from here... often, there are three Brits, Aussies, Danes or "others" in Mudchat for every colonial.
I enjoy that a lot. Sometimes the conversation doesn't draw me in because it's about local things happening in England. I'm sure the same thing happens sometimes with Brits when us colonials are talking about something going on over here. Not every thread was created for me (as far as I know.) Not every Mudchat conversation is for more entertainment, either.

And here's to the newer members of Mudcat... Jimmyt, Leadfingers, Sorcha,Bobert, Wilco, Songs2Play and all the rest. Some may have been in Mudcat longer than I realize, but they are still "new" in their attitude and a real pleasure in my life.


06 Jan 03 - 01:07 PM (#859915)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Don Firth

Assuming that the question is referring to veterans of Mudcat rather than veterans of the military. . . .

I've been messing around here off and on since late 1999. I have found Mudcat to be a tremendous resource in a whole variety of ways. I've found songs that I had been looking for and previously not finding, often in DT, but sometimes through links Mudcatters have provided. Through the many links people put here I've found a large number of other valuable and informative sites. I have become reacquainted with old friends, and I've made new friends, a few of whom I've actually met, but most I have not—so far. Some weeks ago, after swapping a few posts with alanabit, he sent me a copy of his excellent CD. Check him out HERE. And I just received a stack of fruit-colored CDs in the mail that I haven't had a chance to get at yet, but I'm looking forward to an orgy of listening—and stealing songs from everybody!!

Other neat things have happened as well. Because of some of the things I've posted, one of the Mudcatters who lives in Seattle has asked me to write occasional columns for a local folk music magazine. Posting stuff on Mudcat has also given me an opportunity to get some feedback on my major writing project (feedback from writers' groups is valuable as a writer, but when you get feedback from the kind of people you're writing for, that's priceless!).

I can get thoroughly immersed in the music threads, whether they be about songs, singers, history of folk music (recent or long-range), discussions of music theory or voice, instruments, techniques, etc., what's going on currently in the UK or other parts of the word, or just general BS about music. That's the meat and potatoes of this website and the main reason I'm here.

But I also enjoy some of the non-music BS threads. I always like to add to my repertoire of jokes, puns, bumper-stickers, and general nonsense. I've read movie and book reviews. I've learned a recipe for a "quick-and-dirty" latté that can be made with instant coffee. I've received a fairly good, comprehensive consumer report on root beer. I've read about differences between English English and American English vocabulary, grammar, and spelling by long-time speakers of each language. Lots of good stuff. I also enjoy and often get involved in political BS threads. I find that they are often very informative. Many people post links that allow me to check stuff out for myself, and this, in turn, gives me access to news sources other than just what comes urping out of the TV. Sometimes there's a lot of heat generated and I don't really think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind, but with a few exceptions, the discussions tend to be fairly civilized. And diving into the mêlée from time to time myself gives me an opportunity to keep my sword-arm limber.

Like any good party that's wide open to the public, there are a few people attending who whine and complain, bitch at the host for not providing even more free beer, occasionally try to piss in the punchbowl, and generally fail to realize that you can only get out of a party what you are willing to bring to it. But such is the human condition. All in all, the people here are a pretty darned good bunch. Yeah, I think that if I had just blundered in today, I would definitely hang around.

Great party, Max! Thanks!!

Don Firth

06 Jan 03 - 01:11 PM (#859918)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

Oh, well said, Don!! Thanks to you, too, for all you've added!


06 Jan 03 - 05:46 PM (#860121)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,Lurking Tom

I hope I'm not rude in asking (as a relatively new lurker in the forum), but what exactly was "the Catspaw crisis"?

06 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM (#860158)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Little Hawk

Mudcat probably (almost certainly) would not hook me in today.

BUT...........that is NOT because Mudcat has changed (and it has).

It is because I have changed. The chances of my being attracted to chat on another Internet forum are very, very small. I have more direct, tactile ways to engage in life than that.

Mudcat was my first experience of talking to many strangers (albeit strangers with certain common connections) over a computer. I became fascinated by the process, and by the variety of people and ideas involved, and so I became a regular on Mudcat. I got to like it.

I am not likely to repeat that experience on some other Internet forum. I am becoming less likely to do so all the time.

Mudcat, of course, has changed. But that is largely because society itself has changed...radically...and all of us have changed too, as a consequence.

These are dangerous times in the world. I have never seen them more dangerous. That is affecting all of us.

The things I considered important in the past have been considerably altered in my viewpoint. I don't consider most of them so important now. What I do consider important is actually consciously living, living harmoniously, and living in a way that is strongly connected with other people who have what I would term a spiritual focus. This has little or nothing to do with the more material considerations of life, as long as the basics are taken care of (enough food, shelter, clothing, useful work, good company, and genuine love, equality, and respect on all levels for those with whom one is living). The basics are all anyone needs in order to transform themselves into something better.

The only reason I still log on here is because I know many people here and I relate to them as my friends (whether or not we agree on politics). It's a community.

I am not about to criticize that community for NOT having stood still and changeless...while the rest of the world changed tremendously all around it.

- LH

06 Jan 03 - 07:01 PM (#860183)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

And glad you do, LH. I for one likewise consider you a friend in spite of your bizarre obsessions with under-qualified movie actors, your terrible case of galloping philosophus, and your taste for cold, lonely remote corners of the wild. We be of one blood, ye and I:>)


06 Jan 03 - 07:11 PM (#860192)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Little Hawk

Huh? I may live in a cold place (Canada), but I don't like 'em that much, per se...I like being in warm to hot Cuba, Mexico, Trinidad...and they are the most not-lonely places I've seen yet.

But you're right, we be of one blood, ye and I. That's from Rudyard Kipling (Rikki Tikki Tavi), isn't it?

You are a great Soul, Amos.

- LH

06 Jan 03 - 07:22 PM (#860202)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: CarolC

Sure. Although when I first joined, there was a lot more of the kind of quirky fun that I particularly enjoy... limericks, and dry, ironic Canadian humour, etc.). I still find it to be the same kind of enriched cultural and intellectual environment that it was when I first encountered it. But overall, I think this site has improved considerably in many ways since I first joined.

06 Jan 03 - 07:33 PM (#860218)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Little Hawk

There once was a fair maiden named Carol

Whom the border had over a barrel

Till she met Jack the Sailor

A Newfoundland whaler

Now she shines in Canadian apparell

Decent, Eh?

- LH

06 Jan 03 - 07:37 PM (#860222)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: CarolC


06 Jan 03 - 07:52 PM (#860230)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: catspaw49

Catspaw Crisis: Dear Lurking Tom, I guess it was about May of '99 when I had one of those "the guy's a goner" experiences. It was the first time that reality had struck our cyber-village and people found that the place wasn't so cyber after all. It was another of those moments in the growth of this site but the first that brought people's real feelings to the surface. After that we began to meet each other more in 3D and the virtual became far more real. Since then even more real world things have come to us including losing members and their spouses and friends to death as well as a wee baby we had all been looking forward to "sharing."

But we've shared some mighty joyous times as well including births and marriages.............And the best thing no matter what has always been the support that comes from people here. I have found myself laughing with and crying for friends unmet, many of them I will probably never meet. The "Catspaw Crisis" moved us from a message board to a community, a real one.


06 Jan 03 - 09:08 PM (#860299)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?

I wandered in here about 2+ years ago looking for lyrics to a song from the Gay Nineties. I found the song and more than a few others who enjoyed the same music. Since then I have met hundreds of people who love folk music and love to share what they know both in 3D and cyberspace.

To answer A Nonnie Nonnie's question - I would still stay although I am not a veteran. And I appreciate your asking. I often feel as if I take much more than I give here. In the past two years I haved learned countless numbers of "new" songs, some from the DT, most from other members and their associates.

When the BS wears thin, I spend less time here for a while. I don't doubt that my BS has caused a few to use the same coping method. I too visit the old threads, sometimes to get a dose of "ancient history" from the likes of Don Firth and Deckman, sometimes to re-read a bit of technical information that meant nothing to me a year ago. Every day my life is filled with music that I found on or through Mudcat. Yes, if I wandered in today, I would be hooked.

06 Jan 03 - 10:45 PM (#860359)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

Attagirl, Mary!! Right on the old wavelength!!

Love ya,


07 Jan 03 - 12:03 AM (#860387)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Bee-dubya-ell

I started hanging out here about three years ago. I didn't have a home computer, but I managed to sneak in regular visits from work for about a year. Then I quit my job about two years ago and was totally without Internet access for about a year and a half. When I finally got my own machine about six months ago, rejoining the Mudcat was one of the first things I did. I promptly began to wonder why. Things had definitely changed during the time I had been away. Everybody seemed to have lost their sense of humor. I saw someone suggest that another member be ignored because he tried to inject some humor into a discussion. I almost said, "Fuck it! I'll find someplace else to hang out.", but I didn't. I kept coming back because I knew that there were more people here with whom I have a common interest than I would ever find in any other forum.

Eventually, things did return to something more closely resembling what I had remembered. I guess the 'Cat was just goin' through a bad patch. However, if I had not had the benefit of having spent a fair amount of time here before - if I had not known what the Mudcat community was capable of being like - I probably would have not joined.


07 Jan 03 - 01:06 AM (#860412)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Coyote Breath

I think that I'm still a newbie since I don't get included in some stuff (that is OK, though) but I suggest visiting Mudcat to any folkie I meet and am pleased when I see them post to or start a thread.

I am stunned, though, as I find MOST people I suggest the 'cat to have never heard of it!

I would come here no matter what! Yeah, sometimes stuff is dark and yes some of the posts are predictable but I get a real sense of a cyberspace musical community and all communities have people who have dark thoughts and some who are predictable. That's OK too.


07 Jan 03 - 01:41 AM (#860416)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Seamus Kennedy


07 Jan 03 - 11:21 AM (#860715)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Steve Parkes

I spent months looking for stuff inthe DT before I got sucked in to the Forum. Eventually I had to ask for something that wasn't in the DT, and got to discussing the song and the actual historical events. And then I got this headache, and after the mists had cleared, ther was blood everywhere ... or was that another website? Any road up, I'd still get hooked today.


07 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM (#860740)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

The confusion over what kind of veterans we're talking about is instructive.

We now regard "protest songs" about the Vietnam war and Civil Rights in the US as an essential part of the folk music canon. But if you imagine this site being in existence 30-40 years ago, they are the issues about which we would have been having the equivalent of today's BS threads and flame wars about Bush's oil war, the US's new Stasi legislation, Northern Ireland etc. The songs about today's conflicts are only beginning to be written.

Until the Bushies came along, it seemed that all the protesting and singing back then had served a useful purpose, and that the US at least wouldn't go down the same route again. Now I'm just indignant and depressed, but if any of you in the US can do anything to influence the course of events by writing and singing the songs of the present era before it's too late, go out and do it. Just remember to include the innocent Iraquis in them, and don't wait until there have been another 50,000 of them killed: the body count for US casualties in Iraq is unlikely to reach such levels anyway.

Pardon my provocative use of crude language, but Iraquis are human too, just as all those dead slopes/gooks once were.

07 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM (#860868)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: McGrath of Harlow

It doesn't take long to be an old-timer here.

The truth is everybody is a newcomer in terms of the kind of time we have iut in the wider (or is it narrower) world. All this is just teething troubles. Every time a new tooth breaks through it starts again.

There are more of us around than there were a few years ago, and more people who have been around a bit longer than others, and that's one source of aggro, because the same questions keep coming up, and some people seem to mind that.

And for people who've been posting a few years, some of the novelty has worn off, obviously, and the long-sought songs have been found.

But if I found it again tomorrow for the first time, I'd be whooping with joy, and I'm grateful every day for it. Songs and arguments, what a great combination. And help when anybody needs it, and people who understand what you're talking about when, for example you feel like talking about someone you admire who has just died, as has happened pretty often this year, and will happen more often as we grown older.

It goes round and round in circles, up and down, but that's the way wheels work, and that don't mean the old wagon isn't trundling along going God knows where, and I'm happy to come along for the ride.

07 Jan 03 - 05:15 PM (#860992)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Genie

Gotta admit I haven't read everyone's posts yet (though I've "traced" the thread so I can catch up later).

I feel about Mudcat sort of the same way I feel about Cable TV: A lot of the options (threads, shows) don't interest me, but I don't have enough time even to begin to take advantage of the ones whose titles sound of interest -- and in spite of that, I'm spending WAY TO MUCH TIME with it, anyway!

I did spend more time on Mudcat initially, especially on BS threads, than I do now, but, like Little Hawk, I gotta get a life. I will still support MUDCAT financially, by proselitizing and publicizing, and by participating, because it's a rich source for info about music and because there are good folks to rub virtual elbows with.

Perhaps the banter isn't as stimulating as it once was (when it was a smaller clique?), but, again, I don't need to spend more time bantering.

In fact, would some of you folks try to be a little LESS clever, controversial, funny, etc? I need to get some work done.



08 Jan 03 - 11:48 AM (#861589)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Gervase

Maybe not.
I first stumbled across the DT in the old Xerox days, and browsed the forum as a lurker for some time when Max first got it up and running before jumping in with my own fatuities a few years back.
Now, though, it's all bit crowded and getting increasinly hard to find a good thread for all the wittering (I'm sure Hull is a splendid place, but is it something in the water/beer that gives its residents the cyber equivalent of Tourette's?)
Not that I'm Hullist or anything, but it does remind me of the earlier days of the WWW when the first AOL users came online and pissed off the academics with their muddy footprints and knackered pick-ups littering the information superhighway. I suppose it's all part of the democratisation of cyberspace, but I do sometimes crave a smaller, quieter world without the shouted puns, the custard pies and the drunken drivelling. I can do all that in the privacy of my own home, for heaven's sake!
As for the rest of the content; aside from the PEL issue and the oh-so-predictable jerking of the knee at post 11/9/01 trolls, most of the arguments, jokes and observations seem have been made before.
I still come browsing back here every few days, but the intimacy, erudition and eloquence of the 'Cat isn't what it used to be. If the whole thing were to fall over or Max and the clones were to be carried off by aliens I can't say the quality of my life would suffer unduly.
So, in conclusion, there's probably nothing wrong with the Mudcat; it's merely that I've become an old fart.

08 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM (#861607)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

Ah, Gervase, you do have a way with words!:>)

Maybe we should institute a "think twice-post once" filter! If only there were some way to make it mandatory.... For my part, as a frequent offender in political and BS threads, I still find the gleaning to be worth the time spent. But partly that is not so much the individual content of the posts, but the rather complimentary impressions I create of the people behind them! :>)


08 Jan 03 - 12:25 PM (#861636)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Naemanson

My status as a veteran does not affect any part of my life these days. And I generally ignore the political threads. So, the answer would be yes, Mudcat would still hook me today. There are plenty of fun threads, music or otherwise.

08 Jan 03 - 02:19 PM (#861774)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: UB Ed

Sure, although the political discussions will no longer see me.

Regardless of differences, this is a global community of (predominantly) musicians, and sometimes I have a question! Its nice to have a place to go to discuss.


08 Jan 03 - 08:37 PM (#862134)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey.

I've only been around a short time but yes I would hook in today, wish I'd discovered Mudcat earlier, a great resouce, cogratulation
to all concerned.

08 Jan 03 - 08:59 PM (#862149)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Alice

The same thing that hooked me in 1997 would hook me today - the database of lyrics and the information about songs. The difference is that I used to open every thread with anticipation. Now I avoid many threads and open some with dread of what they may turn out to be.


09 Jan 03 - 03:32 AM (#862306)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Roger the Skiffler

Well, in a sense it has. When I retired 12 months ago and didn't have a desktop permanently open to the web any longer, I only logged on from the public library or from relatives' PCs, maybe once a fortnight. I restricted myself to reading significant threads, the health of cyberfriends and items I was interested in, like the arrangements for the Stoney Stratford gig & hardly posted at all. Since August when I changed my PC and got hooked up to the I no longer feel the need to read every thread. I can tell from experience the ones that will annoy me so I don't open them.
I've continued to enjoy the humour in the Tavern threads and have benefitted through PMs of the wisdom and kindness of fellow 'catters.
As we have grown in membership the number of threads daily has increased so I probably miss some things by scrolling quickly down for a few to open but there is still enough useful information, humour and good will to outweight the dross, which I don't feel the need to read (I miss Peter T's flights of literary fancy, though!
(but then, what do I know?)

09 Jan 03 - 03:49 PM (#862953)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: moineau nordique

No, I'd be off like a new bride's nightie. In 1997, it was a great place, one didn't even have to be a member. Lots of music and humour and humanity. This lasted IMHO until around the Fall of 2000. There are so many wonderful memories. The 1999 FSGW/Mudcat gathering was magical. Annap's second gathering was magical (didn't attend the first). Friendships made went to the core. Mudcat Radio every Tuesday night. The first HearMe sessions. It was like being part of a large extended family. I faux pas'd badly and lost my Mudcat family, however, the magical memories will stay will me forever.

Mudcat is not the same and it has not evolved into something better, but I suppose that is part of the many chances one takes in life. I drop in about once a month, just to see if any of my old friends are posting anything good. Rarely do I see them.

09 Jan 03 - 04:08 PM (#862967)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow

" didn't even have to be a member.

You still don't - the only thing, when you sign in as GUEST, as I did just now, there's no way anyone can be sure it's you or not, since anyone can post using that label.

Before the GUEST option was introduced it was possible to do that with an ordinary name, and that's why it was introduced.

Yes, the Mudcat changes - but then we change as well, and when people find they don't like it here as much as they used to, it can be the latter as much as the former that is at the root of it.

You lose some of the pleasures of novelty, and in their place you get the pleasures of familiarity, and they aren't the same. We're no different from any folk club in that way - and like a folk club we also have the renewed pleasures of novelty from newcomers, and the renewed pleasures of familiarity when an old friend drops in again after being absent too long.

09 Jan 03 - 04:10 PM (#862969)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: McGrath of Harlow

And that was me just now.

09 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM (#862973)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?

The point is McGrath, there wasn't this bullshit member vs guest perpetual warfare in the pre-membership days, which now dominates so much of the conversation, and fuels the idiotic flamewars here.

09 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM (#863065)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Barry Finn

Just hit being for 6 yrs. I lurk more than I used to & I post less. I'm glad I didn't just get here, I'd be overwhelmed with the people, the place, the music, blah, blah, woof, woof. Of coures I'd be hooked. Barry

09 Jan 03 - 09:07 PM (#863174)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: bbc

I can relate to a lot of what Jeri said in her 1st post. There was a group of us who were getting past an interest in just the music & wanting to know the people behind the music. Then, catspaw had his medical emergency & we found ourselves checking in each day, several times a day, holding our collective breath, waiting to see if he was alive or dead. We cried; we sent prayers & music & cards & money; we sent ourselves. Yup, spaw & others became real people to us who we cared about. We did have some wonderful in-person gatherings & developed friendships that I expect to last a lifetime. I haven't made any friends on Mudcat recently. I wonder--new folks--are you having experiences like we did & making solid friendships on the current Mudcat? I won't leave, because of what I've found here, but I doubt that I'd find enough as a newcomer to cause me to stay.



09 Jan 03 - 09:12 PM (#863177)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

Guest, I feel, and have always said, that your point is erroneous. There is no battle between named members and guests as such. There is always a battle between the straightforward and the underhanded, between those who wish to converse with their best minds and those who wish to merely upset or decry or drag down, and that battle is reflected here. It happens that, more often than not, those who are so motivated are also unwilling to use even a virtual identity. Instead they use anonymity so they don't have to see themselves later.

So the two issues get mixed up, I think, but the real battle is not between members and guests -- it is between people who seek to communicate (bring about some degree of unferstanding, exchange viewpoints) and those who really want to undermine or destroy communication.


09 Jan 03 - 09:18 PM (#863186)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Chip2447

My first post as a memeber was 13Mar01, does that make me a veteran? Prolly not, although I had lurked, dropping in on occassion for probably 18 months before that.
    It looks like I have made some 365 posts to date, that averages better than 1 every 2 days, (that really surprises me) mostly to BS, FICTION, OR MUDCAT TAVERNS Threads. Does that qualify me as veteran? NAH dont tink so.
    Hellsbells, I can't compare musically with probablly 95%(giving myself the benefit of the doubt here)of the gifted musicians and songwriters that we have here at the Cat.
    I can't contribute musically, certainly not historically, even rarer still insightful, thought provoking words. Maybe I can instill a little humour from time to time.
    What drew me here in the first place would draw me here today, Knowledge, humour, friendship, though I've never met any of you, nor have I seemed to have stricken up those lifelong and life changing friendships that some of you speak of. I have found a certain commradrie amonst you folks, and would love to f2f most of of you at some point in time.
    Veteran or newbie it doesn't matter, I'm here, until my considerable curiousty is sated or time and tide draw me elsewhere.

Chip2447(who usually tries to inject something in the parenthises)

10 Jan 03 - 10:44 AM (#863490)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?

I disagree Amos. I think there is an obsession with identities in Mudcat--pseudonymous as well as anonymous, ancestral identity (have a look into "What is a Gael" or "Who Are You"), and nationalist identity in this forum. While the ancestral and nationalist identity issues are common in all folk forums, the pseuonymous and anonymous identity issues that have caused the biggest battles in Mudcat over the years hasn't been merely the province of disingenuous anonymous posters. Not by a long shot.

10 Jan 03 - 10:52 AM (#863501)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Amos

Well, there's nothing about Mudcat to make people obsessed with identities -- I think you're projecting, or associating a wide-spread human flaw with one locale. I repeat -- I have never seen a shot fired at a Guest who was genuinely and civilly seeking to express a viewpoint and communicate. It seems to me that 99 per cent of any wrath aimed at Guests has been because of the quality of their communication.

If you were to review a listing of all posts for which the name was merely "Guest" only, I think you would find that over 80% of them could be characterized as anti-communication -- the kind of thing designed solely to make others wrong, upset people, generalize negative nounlessness and so on.

You tend to be an exception in that although you do get snide and negative from time to time, you also have something to say. I even fancy I can usually tell which of Those Who Shall Not Name Themselves I am speaking to, although that could just be delusory on my part.

Personally, I feel that communicating from namelessness is a discourtesy, like graffiti on the subways.


10 Jan 03 - 11:20 AM (#863525)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: Naemanson

I agree, Amos. I have seen plenty of legitimate, fun posts from anonymous guests. And plenty of people who appreciate posts from the anonymous guests.

"...obsession with identities in Mudcat..." I am Naemanson. But I have news for you. That isn't my real name. There are a few Mudcatters who know me personally. For them I have a real identity. There are many who do not know me. For them I am just another voice typing in the wind. No one has asked me to reveal myself. Am I male or female, straight or gay, tall or short, heavy or thin, young or old, performer or audience? Some know and some don't. Do I have identity on the Mudcat? I don't know and don't care.

Oh and I joined in late 2000, just abut the time that moineau nordique says the Mudcat went downhill. I do not take responsibility for that. [Grin]

10 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM (#863537)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?

I have yet to encounter anyone in this forum who doesn't get snide and negative, regardless of the identity label on their posts. To suggest that is only the province of anon guests seems silly to me.

It also doesn't take into account what I feel has been a regular aspect of life in Mudcat--members posting as anon guests when they want to go negative, but don't want to be held accountable for it.

I've always maintained that most anyone with a mind to, can easily suss out my posts, and the posts of a couple of other "communication friendly" anon guests who post regularly, when they read them. From what I can tell, there are 3-4 of us currently inhabiting the forum, though we do tend to come and go a lot.

10 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM (#863553)
Subject: RE: BS: Veterans Would Mudcat hook you in today?
From: stevetheORC

Hi I am one of the new ones, I might not be a musician but I do enjoy good music no matter what it be, I also enjoy the humor that is to be found on this site and some of the topics make you stop and think.
It might not be as it once was but suerly it is better for something to evolve rather than stagnate!!!
And yes I can be very annoying and irevrent after all I am a Bloody Orc:-0