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BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!

04 Jul 00 - 02:35 AM (#251480)
Subject: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Liz the Squeak

Happy 4th of July to all those on the other side of the pond - don't you be doing all that drinking thang, now! Remember, it's work tomorrow just the same!!

Have a good, and above all, fight free Fourth!

LTS


04 Jul 00 - 03:43 AM (#251494)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Auxiris

Thanks for the holiday best wishes, Liz, but could you please not refer to Americans as Colonials the next time? Many of us find that quite offensive.

cheers, Aux


04 Jul 00 - 05:09 AM (#251509)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Helen

Besides, LTS, we Colonials in Oz don't celebrate 4th July.

Helen


04 Jul 00 - 05:19 AM (#251511)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Lepus Rex

How is 'colonials' offensive? Just curious:)


04 Jul 00 - 05:34 AM (#251513)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Micca

Is Colonials more or less offensive than Yanks,Yankees, Johnny Rebs,or any of the many terms used for Americans around the world? Should it perhaps have been expressed as Former Colonials? anyway, Happy day to you today and, a bit late, I know, but to the Canadians for their National day 1st of July..


04 Jul 00 - 05:55 AM (#251518)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Lepus Rex

Yanks, Colonials, Johnny Rebs? Honestly, Aurixis is the first American (If Aurixis is an American... Sorry, if I'm wrong) that I've ever seen take offense to one of those words. Maybe I'm just such an arrogant bastard that it takes a lot to offend me, but those words are pretty damned tame compared to the slurs Americans use for other nationalities.


04 Jul 00 - 06:01 AM (#251521)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: katlaughing

Well just to stir the pot a bit, thanks to all of you "royalist diehards" for helping us to celebrate our freedom from such as you labour under!**BSEG** Oh and you can call me any of those, no offense taken; besides that at least half of my ancestors fled north to Nova Scotia to fight on your side! Hahaha....Happy Fourth of July Everybody!!

katlaughing


04 Jul 00 - 06:31 AM (#251534)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Scabby Douglas

No-one from UK could use the term "Colonial" in anything other than an ironic sense..

It was only meant as a joke, in the same way that people will often use "old Bean" or "pip-pip" in conversation with an English person, or tease a Scot about haggis...

Anyway - Happy Fourth of July to all of you from all of us..

Cheers


04 Jul 00 - 07:16 AM (#251543)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Auxiris

Yes, Aux is an American; no, Aux does not live in America any longer but finds all those reference words mentioned above to be either inaccurate at best or relatively offensive at worst. Aux is also very sorry to have included anyone else's opinion in the post and aplogises profusely. Should have only been speaking for myself, but I did think I was polite, at least and I don't see why people can't just say "American" when they want to refer to people from America.

cheers,

Aux


04 Jul 00 - 07:17 AM (#251544)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,andy m÷÷er

I'm not nationalistic enough to be offended by the use of 'colonial' .I think it can be ok to stir sometimes (especially when the polenta is getting thick)- - That allmost sounds sublime but it's just nonsense, sublime nonsence?.subliminal nonsence, submarine nonecelance(no idea how to spell that,not 'THAT' but that other thing).


04 Jul 00 - 07:39 AM (#251547)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Lepus Rex

Aux... Sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you---that's not what I intended at all. I just thought that it was interesting that some found the terms offensive, and I was wondering why they would. Your entry just made me curious, not angry or anything. So, sorry again. :)


04 Jul 00 - 08:14 AM (#251554)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Auxiris

L. Rex. . . hi, didn't take it as an attack no need to be sorry, but to explain further, may I just say that I found it rather tactless for someone who lives in England (is that right Liz?) to wish American folks "happy holiday" for their independence day celebration and then turn around and call call them colonials as if America was still a British colony. . .

cheers,

Aux


04 Jul 00 - 08:28 AM (#251557)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: sophocleese

Irony, wit, friendly joking name-calling, read a few of LTS former postings and you'll see all of the above. No need to get upset Aux, remove the sting, and enjoy the sentiment. Think how pleasant it is for someone on the other side of the pond to be wishing you a happy celebration for today instead of grinding their teeth in anger and frustration.


04 Jul 00 - 08:37 AM (#251558)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Gary T

I guess I saw it in a different light. I took it as lighthearted, almost nonsensical--and refreshingly different, as I don't recall being called a "colonial" before. But of course, we each have our own perspective, which keeps life from being boring.

Anyway, thank you Liz for the good wishes. Fight-free should be no problem, but I'll have to contemplate "that drinking thang" between beers (BG).

Am I the only curmudgeon Yank who would just as soon not hear various fireworks going off at odd times throughout the week? Hate to spoil anyone's fun, but it sure is annoying. (Just ask the pets!)


04 Jul 00 - 08:39 AM (#251559)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: kendall

Aux, which "Americans" are you talking about


04 Jul 00 - 08:39 AM (#251560)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Gary T

Whoops! Thank you Micca and Doug, as well.


04 Jul 00 - 08:43 AM (#251561)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: MikeofNorthumbria

Dear Mudcatters,

Can someone clarify exactly who is entitled to be called "an American"? According to my geography teacher, America is a continent, not a nation, and therefore Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians etc are all bona fide Americans. So how should we address our American friends who happen to be citizens of the USA? "Dear Usatians?" Anyway, whatever you call yourselves, have a good time on the 4th of July.

The 4th of July, incidentally, is also Old Midsummers Day - that's going by the Julian Calendar. Over here, the more traditionally minded among us will mark the occasion with bonfires, and also with ale, feasting, and general merrymaking. (Including hobby-horses, green men, and the obligatory morris dancers.) Enjoy it while you can - next year it may be illegal!

Wassail!


04 Jul 00 - 09:05 AM (#251571)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Gary T

Thank you, Mike, and enjoy Old Midsummer's Day.

As to your question--"America" is pretty universally understood to mean the U.S., and "American" to mean someone from the U.S. (noun) or related to the U.S. (adjective).

Technically, America is not a continent; South America is, as is North America. And technically, you are right, any resident of the Americas could indeed be called an American. Every other country in the Americas, however, has its own name for its people--Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans, etc. as you mentioned. No specific name like this (such as "Usatians") has been realistically accepted to be applied to us Yanks. So, we end up being called Americans by default and widespread understanding (if not full agreement).

It's not perfect terminology, but it's so well established it's unlikely to change.


04 Jul 00 - 09:12 AM (#251574)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Callie

I'm interested to know what American Indigenous people might think about 4th July. Is it considered a celebratory day or another day of mourning?

Callie


04 Jul 00 - 09:19 AM (#251579)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Gary T

Good question, Callie. I'm aware that many Amerinds find Columbus Day to be a sad occasion. My guess would be that Independence Day would not be mourned, as the damage was being done regardless of the form of government, but I don't know.


04 Jul 00 - 09:37 AM (#251583)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: catspaw49

Just shoot off a few firecrackers and say screw it. Geezis..............

Spaw


04 Jul 00 - 09:45 AM (#251586)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Callie

Dang, you're right Spaw. This 'thinking' business is no good at all. it won't do. Will see a mechanic about it first thing tomorrow.


04 Jul 00 - 09:51 AM (#251589)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: SDShad

Well, Callie, I can only speak to what I know of folks in Sioux Country, and that only the small sample with whom I'm personally acquainted.

For one thing, yes, a lot of Native Americans I think are offended by Columbus Day, at least, but in South Dakota we don't have Columbus Day in October, we have Native American Day. But as for July 4, I've never seen anyone who mourns it or is offended. For one, like all of us goofy hominid meat puppets, Natives are as willing as anyone to gather for the celebration of mutual cultural reference points. And of a lot of the Dakota, Nakota and Lakota I know, even ones who know their history quite well and can cite for you chapter and verse what's been done to them in the name of the United States, for all that you'd be surprised how much patriotism they often feel. Maybe it's the old warrior tradition, I don't know, but I've been told that South Dakota sent more young men per thousand population than any other state to the VietNam War, because of all the young men from the Sioux Federation who volunteered to "do their duty."

So yeah, Native Americans celebrate July 4, but not all. There are also White folks to whom this is just another day too, though.

Well, this here Wild Colonial Boy is off to celebrate at a local coffee shop with biscotti and cappucino. (So this is what they fought for?) :-)

Chris


04 Jul 00 - 09:51 AM (#251590)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,The Yank

Only residents of the U.S. would be presumptious and preposterous enough (Can you spell "Hubris"?) to adopt the term "Americans" as pertaining solely to the residents of the United States- particularly as the only real "Americans"- the indigenous populations- were early on annihilated by their European Immigrant progenitors.

As to the psychological problems of U.S. citizens who takes offense at the term "colonials"- and who doubtless routinely refers to residents of the British Isles as "Brits" and residents of Scotland as "English", enough has been said above.

C'mon, folks....


04 Jul 00 - 09:55 AM (#251594)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Callie

Thanks Chris, I've learnt something.


04 Jul 00 - 10:17 AM (#251599)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: JedMarum

Come on, folks; how can we take a light hearted, well wisher's best wishes for a grand national holiday and turn it into a discussion on political sesnitivities???

Enjoy the moment. Take the greeting for what it intended; a blessing for US Americans on their anniversary of their nation's independednce.

Thank you Liz! I appreciate your kind thoughts on this day, and enjoy your humor!

You know, I once told an English friend of mine that my favorite US holiday was Thanksgiving. He told me the British celebrate Thanksgiving too. I said, "They do?" and he said, "Ya, only we celebrate it on the Fourth of July, because that's when we got rid of you lot!"


04 Jul 00 - 10:25 AM (#251601)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Willie-O

Oh fer chrissakes. We don't want to be Americans. That's why we live in Canada. We can tell the difference even if others can't! (This is the point where some well-intentioned American says 'I'd rather focus on our similarities'. Please spare us this remark.)

Why would native peoples of this continent want to be referred to by the name of an Italian navigator? They already have perfectly good names for their many and diverse nations.

Anyway happy fourth of July to Her Majesty's rebellious subjects in Central North America......hope the taxation n representation thing works out real soon. Then maybe we'll try it.

Willie-O


04 Jul 00 - 10:41 AM (#251610)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: catspaw49

I'd rather focus on our similarities......

Sorry....had to be said.

Spaw


04 Jul 00 - 10:43 AM (#251613)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: kendall

It's important to think. Otherwise, we would be on a par with slugs. It's also important to know when to lighten up.


04 Jul 00 - 10:48 AM (#251616)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Mrrzy-who-lost-her-cookie-at-Mom's

I'll reset it later. Anyway, just wanted to say this about that - in Spanish-speaking countries in Europe what are called Americans everywhere else seem to be called Norte Americanos - I guess to distinguish it from the rest of The Americas colonialized by Iberians. And blithely ignoring the Canadians, as does the term Americans. In the same vein, here is what I learned from my sister who attended Middlebury (Vermont):

Most places in the world, Yankee means American.
To an American, Yankee means Northerner.
To a Northerner, Yankee means New Englander.
To a New Englander, Yankee means Vermonter.
And to a Vermonter, Yankee means someone who doesn't like cheddar cheese on their apple pie.

The moral of the story is, terminology is relative, and note that AGAIN, Canada is ignored...


04 Jul 00 - 10:48 AM (#251618)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Jeri

We're referred to as Americans because of "United States Of." It might not be completely correct, but we're referring to the country, not the continent. I've been called an American by Canadians whom I've met, who seemed to prefer being called Canadians.

I've never heard of any USian who has seen the term "colonial" meant any way but humorously, until now.

This morning, I went to a small local store. They put on a free breakfast (eggs, bacon, potatoes, toast, fruit cups) for everyone who came. We played music. A couple of pipers in full regimental dress (on their way to an Event) stopped and played Amazing Grace. The flag was raised, and after a brief bit of history, The Declaration of Independance was read from the front steps of the store.


04 Jul 00 - 10:52 AM (#251621)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: JedMarum

Thanks Willie-O, we're still workin' on that taxation thing. Seems to be a very long term issue!


04 Jul 00 - 10:59 AM (#251625)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: catspaw49

I'd still rather focus on the similarities........

Spaw


04 Jul 00 - 11:08 AM (#251630)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Mary in Kentucky

Thanks Liz...and thanks for sharing your morning with us, Jeri. It's hot here in Kentucky, and a little rain, but I'm flying my flag between showers, singing Stars and Stripes Forever and watching fireworks on TV. There will be more fireworks all over town tonight. Oh yes, I'll eat some more watermelon and visit friends tonight. I'm not a beer drinker, but a friend routinely brings me bottles of wine from all over the world, and we'll hopefully uncork one tonight!


04 Jul 00 - 11:16 AM (#251639)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Jeri

In case folks from other countries aren't aware of this, we shoot off fireworks. There are official displays put on by cities and towns. There are also unofficial fireworks going off all over the place. In some neigborhoods, it can sound like a full-scale war. Maybe we ought to go to HearMe later, so we can share the sound of patriotic US'n's blowing stuff up. ("Ok, the gunfire-like fireworks you hear are from the blue house down the street on the left. The house across the street is answering with something that sounds like a grenade, and the whisle-bomb noise is from somewhere around the bend I can't see from here.")


04 Jul 00 - 11:20 AM (#251644)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Mary in Kentucky

What's really funny is when all the dogs start howling along with the booms and whistles.


04 Jul 00 - 11:22 AM (#251646)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: catspaw49

Just returning from Tennessee, I am (as you would expect of my cretinous self), well stocked for the day with assorted explosive stuff. Mainly I have a nice assortment of larger bottle rockets and and some of Jeri's whistling/sceaming mohunkers. Also, I have a few gross of the ever popular "Jumping Jacks" which guarantee injury to innocent spectators as well as yourself.

Spaw


04 Jul 00 - 11:33 AM (#251652)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: bbelle

I agree that LTS's well-wishes were just that ... and thank you. Jeri ... what a great way to start off your day! Having traveled our New England states, I've noticed that they "do-up" most holidays better than I've ever seen elsewhere, e.g., Halloween in any other state pales in comparison to Massachusetts.

My day will be quiet. Most years I've attended my father's annual family reunion, which always takes place 4th of July week. (My father is one of 5 brothers and a sister, aged 69-83; all still very active.) This year, however, I'm staying with my stepmother's 91 y/o mother, so she can accompany my father. So, the day will be uneventful but a good day for some much need "laying back."

Enjoy your days, all, and be careful ...

moonchild


04 Jul 00 - 11:55 AM (#251659)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: IvanB

Well, "colonials" I can accept, but "losing your cookie at mom's?" Can ANYONE consider that a proper way to spend the 4th? *BG*, and have a good one everyone.


04 Jul 00 - 11:56 AM (#251661)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Peter T.

Wait till the Brits see that piece of lunacy, "The Patriot"! They will be calling Yanks a lot worse than colonials.

Until then, just keep repeating: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness!" We can all celebrate the day those words were proclaimed and the country that proclaimed them -- the most powerful weapon created in the past two centuries, and the most powerful weapon of the next. Happy Birthday, fellow North Americans!!!!

yours, Peter T (Johnny Canuck).


04 Jul 00 - 11:56 AM (#251662)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Alice

Hi, LTS, thanks for the well wishing. As far as the colonial term, Montana was never a colony so it is not a term I personally could identify with. Most of the 50 states were not colonies. It's a big country. Many people think of themselves as citizens of their state as well as citizens of the country. As far as this "American" term others discussed, I've never known a Canadian or Mexican to Want to call themselves an American (that means US citizen).

The big event in our town, like many others, will be the huge fireworks display tonight.

Thanks again for the Happy greeting!

Alice in Montana


04 Jul 00 - 11:59 AM (#251666)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: catspaw49

Oh good Peter.....'cause ya' know I'd still rather focus on the similarities.

Spaw


04 Jul 00 - 12:04 PM (#251673)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Naemanson

Thank you Liz for your best wishes. Happy Fourth from this United Statesian to my fellow United Statesians! If you celebrate the Fourth with a fifth please be careful.

Other thoughts: My brother-in-law is a Mexican citizen currently living in these United (Untied?) States. He makes no bones about calling me an American and himself a Mexican. He is proud of his country and his heritage. He and my sister have worked hard to make sure my niece is aware of both sides of her own heritage.

Some memories of past celebrations:

1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 - Spent the time schooner caroling for the fleet achored in North Haven thoroughfare.

1976 - Fired the first salute to this country's 200th birthday. Witnessed by then Congressman Bill Cohen. Beat the official salute by a matter of seconds.

1969 - Spent the day fighting a small forest fire set off by our own version of fireworks (blasting caps in black powder). OOPS! Only about an acre or two damaged due to quick action on the part of family and neighbors.

Any other takers on this bit of thread creep? What are your memories of this holiday?


04 Jul 00 - 12:12 PM (#251683)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Alice

1976 - You fired the first salute to this country's 200th birthday? Wow! I can't think of anything that comes even close to that! -alice


04 Jul 00 - 12:16 PM (#251684)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: bbelle

1964 ... Cape Hatteras, NC ... Daddy built a fireworks display on the beach but didn't realize which way the rockets were trained when he lit it ... the "family" jewels almost bit the dust ...

1976 ... Washington, DC ... Bicentennial Fireworks display on the Mall.

1979 ... Portland, OR ... Arrived there to make it my home for the next 12 years.

1998 ... Atlantic Beach, NC ... Family Reunion ... Watched the fireworks display and put on a concert with various cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews.

moonchild


04 Jul 00 - 12:25 PM (#251691)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Alice

1986 - Watched it snow. Waited several days before the town could do the fireworks.


04 Jul 00 - 12:33 PM (#251695)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: sophocleese

Talking about fireworks...(here's a similarity for you Spaw) on Canada Day those of us north of the center also light fireworks. I missed them, as I wasnside singing at the time, but caught up last night when the next door neighbour decided to set some off. Just after we'd got the kids calmed down enough to sleep. No accidents though, thankfully.

I get curmudgeonly about fireworks when they pump out loud canned music to go along with them. A live brass band would be wonderful but the local rock station setting up a sound system to play crap is awful.


04 Jul 00 - 12:51 PM (#251702)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: ┴ine

As a still-rebellious descendant of the Usations that fought in the American Revolution, I'd like to say a great big thank you to my British cousins for their greetings on this wonderful holiday.

Whatever differences there may be between the citizens of the USA, at least we can be thankful for that wonderful document, the American Constitution, that laid the groundwork for the rights and freedoms that we have today. Even though we may still be fighting for some rights, at least the Constitution gave us all the right to fight.

And to my fellow wild Colonial brothers and sisters -- Go forth and celebrate!! And raise a hotdog to dear old King George for being such an reactionary pinhead, and dear old Sam Adams for being such an impatient fomenter in Lexington so long ago.

-- ┴ine


04 Jul 00 - 12:57 PM (#251703)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Naemanson

Alice, snow on the Fourth Of July is a pretty big deal! I'm from Northern Maine and never saw that! Especially if they had to delay the fireworks several days!


04 Jul 00 - 01:16 PM (#251710)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Jeri

Here, fireworks are things that go "boom" in the night and look pretty. They're not meant to kill people, and most people don't see them as symbols of "the rocket's red glare, bombs bursting in air." They're more associated with the 4th July here than words on a document written centuries ago.

Two years ago, I didn't watch or hear any fireworks, although we brought some with us. There was no celebration, and all was quiet. I'm grateful for that - I was in Kuwait, and the fireworks were real.


04 Jul 00 - 01:18 PM (#251711)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: SDShad

There's been snow on the fourth of July in the Black Hills of South Dakota! I tried to collect from my mom on all those "It'll-be-a-cold-snowy-day-on-the-fourth-of-July-before-I-let-you-do-that" items, but she explained that she was just trying to raise me right and what she really meant was "a cold day in Hell." Comments on our beautiful state aside, you know it happens several times a year in that lovely city in Norway.

(I'm not really SDShad, but I can see him from here.)

--Beth


04 Jul 00 - 01:22 PM (#251714)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Micca

And I always thought the Declaration of Independence said "....Life, Liberty and the Happiness of Pursuit..."


04 Jul 00 - 01:22 PM (#251715)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Amergin

Aine, I'm with you a bit on that score. My family has been in the New World for about 350 years, we are now scattered all over the country and have fought on various sides in all the wars. So I say thanks to all you folks across the Atlantic for being oppressing enough for my ancestors to want to fight for a free country. Maybe someday their dream will come true....


04 Jul 00 - 01:26 PM (#251720)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane

Reading some of your submissions made me aware that my understanding of Canadian history was very poor. Am I corrrect in assuming that colonists in ,pre-revolutionary British North America were paying taxes to the British government, including a tax on tea?

Why didn't the colonists in Canada join the revolution? Were they treated differently, by HM government, from the other colonies?

Looking at Article 11 of the 'Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of....[here follows list of original 13 states]', it reads :

"Canada, acceding to the Confederation, and joining in the measures of the United States, shall be admitted into, and entitled to, all the advantages of this Union; but no other colony shall be admitted into the same unless such admission be agreed to by nine states."

This sounds like the Congress delegates, were expecting a parting of the way between Canada and Great Britain.

Any thoughts on Canadian-American history of the above period?

Thanks for your time and have an enjoyable holiday.


04 Jul 00 - 01:27 PM (#251721)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: catspaw49

HAPPINESS OF PURSUIT????? Geeziz Micca, I love it!!! And like Willie-O, I like to focus on the similarities...........

Spaw


04 Jul 00 - 01:31 PM (#251726)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Morticia

Over in the pub we intend to set fire to some of the creepy old decorations left over from the last administration and I have a solitary firework saved up from 5th November that I will light in your honour when it gets dark.Have a good one, my little col...ooops, differently countried friends. Terri ( in the U.K, but any excuse for a party)


04 Jul 00 - 01:54 PM (#251743)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: katlaughing

Willie-O & Micca....LMAO!!! I love it!!

Jeri, sure am glad you aren't in the middle of that now!!Since you are in New England, next Fourth, if you can, go down to Old Deerfield, Massachusetts, and watch the parade, etc. The whole village is authentic colonial homes, some private, some open to the public, and teh parade features a bang-up fife and drum band, as well as many otehr authentic units. When we went one year, my brother was with us. He had a pretty uncanny experience, almost like a "flashback", had a vision of the "real" battles, etc. going on. In that moment he *heard* a new piano and wound up rushing home to write his "George Washington Piano Sonata". Old Deerfield has quite a history and is a good palce to visit anytime, but esp. on the Fourth.

Alice, we had snow the last Fourth I was in Wyoming, in 1983, before we moved to New England! But, we were up in the Big Horn Mountains, trying to camp out! Still it turned out fun, we drove down into Thermopolis and went swimming at the hot springs!

Oh, and Jeri, the HearMe thing is a great idea! This January 1st my stupid neighbours shot off their guns...we are all hoping they won't feel the need tongiht, but flak jackets are at the ready!**BG**

katlaughing


04 Jul 00 - 02:18 PM (#251752)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: DougR

Liz the Squeek:thanks for the greetings. It's too nice a day to get upset with anybody! Call me anything you like except a liberal.

:>)

DougR


04 Jul 00 - 02:40 PM (#251757)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Peter T.

Colwyn, Canadians were mostly French at that time, and didn't take kindly to the anti-Catholic propaganda coming out of the American revolution. The various attempts to dragoon Canada into the war were laughably bad marketing. Canadians had also been on the French side in the French and Indian war, and were fed up with British-American atrocities. They were not interested in joining an even worse bunch of athiestical radicals than the Protestants who were now their masters.

yours, Peter T.


04 Jul 00 - 02:41 PM (#251758)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: katlaughing

of course that should read that my brother "heard a new piano composition".....*BG*


04 Jul 00 - 04:05 PM (#251787)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: bbelle

Here is a story:

A young Polish woman, who is a trained chef, of an upper middle class family, married and pregnant, with her own home, lots of surrounding family, husband is a soldier. But she has a secret ... she is a part of the Polish Resistance and spends her nights leading Jews out of Poland to safe houses.

There is an infiltrator in her Resistance group and one day the Gestapo literally storms into her house and she is placed into a concentration camp, with no thought that she would live past tomorrow.

She has a talent, though, that is needed in the base commandant's house ... as a chef. She spends the next 6 1/2 years in that camp. She gives birth to her only daughter in that camp and is allowed to keep her. She fared a little better than the other prisoners because she is allowed to eat the "leavings" of the commandant's family and was able to maintain enough breast milk to keep her daughter alive. She arose at 3 AM everyday to start the cooking and stopped only after the kitchen was in order, around midnight. She worked in the fields so the commandant's family had fresh vegetables. She carried her daughter in a pouch, everywhere she went.

Her husband and all her family in Poland died in the camps.

When her camp was liberated, she and her daughter were taken to a displaced person's camp in Germany. I'm not certain how long they stayed there. She was eventually able to find a "room" so they could leave the DPC. Finding work was impossible so she worked various and sundry odd jobs making very, very little money. But even so, there was very little food to buy. More often than not, in order for her daughter to eat, she went hungry. There were often times when both went hungry for days at a time. They almost died of starvation.

When the daughter was almost 12, a relative in Chicago "found" them and sponsored their immigration to the United States.

For many years, she worked 3 jobs to make ends meet ... working in her daughter's parochial school for tuition; cleaning houses; cleaning offices. She saved enough to send her daughter to nurses' school.

This woman's name is Maria Hrycelak, she is 91 years old, and she is my stepmother's mother. She, now, lives with my father and stepmother ... but she remains a fiercely independant woman.

I spent several hours today listening to her. It takes a lot of concentration because she speaks in a mix of Polish, German, Ukranian, and sparse English ... but, make no mistake ... her story comes across loud and clear! My luck is that I pick up languages quickly and understand most of what she is saying.

She talked of how wonderful if was to come to the United States. How she slept so much better because she wasn't worried the Gestapo were going to come. How she eats well, now, but she remembers vividly what abject hunger feels like.

How she cannot understand why so many Americans don't appreciate the freedom they have. How much she loves this country (although, she doesn't necessarily think that North Florida is part of the "regular" United States).

Often when folks talk about their heroes, they name famous people. Not me ... my hero is Maria Hrycelak (Busia).

So ... I thought my day was going to be quiet ... now I have some important things to ponder ... like how I had the freedom to march, protest, and sit-in during the 60's/70's ... like how I can say whatever I want and not worry about being arrested ... like how I can tell this story on a public forum and not fear reprisals from the government ... like how I've never know what it's like to be hungry because there just isn't any food.

While our "democracy" may not be foolproof and our "Constitution" outdated ... take a long look around ...

moonchild


04 Jul 00 - 04:26 PM (#251796)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Mbo

Moon--Atlantic Beach in '98?! I was 45 minutes away in Jacksonville! Of course that was a year before I came here...too bad...

--Mbo


04 Jul 00 - 04:28 PM (#251797)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: kendall

King George the third a "pinhead"?? I dont think so.Let's not forget that at the time, the colonists called on Mother England to send soldiers to protect them from the indians. All George wanted was a little help in paying for those troops.I do think he was out of order calling George Washington a "terrorist".


04 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM (#251803)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: bbelle

Yes, MBO, Atlantic Beach. That's where the annual family reunion is held. My father's family came over from Ireland and settled in Johnston County, NC, in the early 1700's. One of Daddy's brothers lives in Atlantic Beach, one in Newport, and one in Beaufort. We rent several cottages along the Intracoastal. I love the area ... but then there's not an area in North Carolina that I don't love. If I won the lottery, I'd have a house in the mountains, a cottage at the coast, and a condo in Raleigh ...

moonchild


04 Jul 00 - 04:47 PM (#251805)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Mbo

You got that right! After we had to leave here in 1985, we spent 10 years trying to get back, and get back we did! If you're in the area next time the reunion goes, be sure to look me up!

--Mbo


04 Jul 00 - 05:31 PM (#251815)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: DougR

Moonchild: That is a great story! We really don't know how good we have it.

DougR


04 Jul 00 - 06:17 PM (#251828)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Bob Bolton

G'day all,

I'm glad to see the thread creep away from the question of who can lay claim to the name 'American'. It seems such an appropriate term - being the gratuitous appropriation of Columbus's discovery by a map maker who stayed at home and lived off other people's work.

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton


04 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM (#251846)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Nancy

Hi Liz, Thanks for the best wishes for the 4th! I take no offense to being called a "colonial" at all and frankly am surprised anyone would.....hmmmmmm, go figure!

If you'd like, please visit my site and follow the links to "4th images" if you'd like to experieice a 4th of July day vicariously through photos. We're a little town at the base of a LARGE mountain and make a big day of it. Cheers, From a Wild Colonial Girl at the base of Mt Shasta.

http://www.jeffersonterritory.com/


04 Jul 00 - 07:23 PM (#251850)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: JedMarum

thanks for the story, moonchild ... it reminds me that we are blessed to live in this place and these times.


04 Jul 00 - 07:46 PM (#251856)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: bbelle

Yes, Jed, we ALL forget sometimes, and a gentle reminder doesn't hurt ...

moonchild


04 Jul 00 - 09:34 PM (#251893)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Uncle Sam

"Usables" would be more appropriate.
Also I saw the news footage of Bill aboard some battleship wearing one of his $10,000+ suits, and a ridiculous baseball-type hat.

Sort of said it all for me!


04 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM (#251937)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Margo

LTS, thanks for the greeting! No offence taken at all.

Moonchild, what a wonderful story. I do appreciate this country, and having enough to eat!

So what are we to call ourselves if not "Americans" here in the USA? That's what I grew up calling myself, so I never thought otherwise. Is there another name that is proper, and not slang? Surely not Yankee, as it has been pointed out that Yankee means different things to different people.

Yes, the Canadians were paying taxes to Britain on goods imported from the colonies. Incidentally, Benjamin Franklin's cousin (Folger) and a group of loyalists set up a whaling enterprise based out of Nova Scotia. Folger was loyal to the crown and refused to stand against England. The Nova Scotians were very happy about it because they were paying taxes on imported whale oil.

So you see, all's whale that ends whale!

Margo, ducking for cover :o)


04 Jul 00 - 10:57 PM (#251938)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Willie-O

Spaw, yer kind of a Canadian at heart, really. With the teeny little exception that we're known for a certain blandness of manner caused by a natural effort to be inoffensive to others.

Other than that...yer just like us!

Thanks for the real content, Moonchild--cause that is one way in which our countries are very similar. Lots of people here, as in the States, complain about immigration and fear accepting refugees...when the fact that these people want to come here, to either of our countries--(despite the climate in our case)says something very good about what we take for granted.

Willie-O


04 Jul 00 - 11:29 PM (#251950)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Timehiker

Thanks for the holiday greetings Liz.

Colwyn, here's a brief history lesson. The French surrendered Canada to the British in 1763. The British Parliament had to devise a way to govern the new territories. They couldn't organize them the way the 13 other American colonies were (a royal governor and a locally elected legislative assembly) because most Canadians at the time were Catholic. British law didn't allow Catholics to hold public office. Nearly 10 years later, in 1774, they enacted the Quebec Act. This said that French civil law would continue in Canada, but criminal law would be under the British system, Catholics were granted the right to hold office if they swore an oath of allegiance to The British, and the southern boundary of Quebec was set at the Ohio River. This upset plenty of people in the 13 other colonies. There were still some lingering hostilities from the "French and Indian War". Many American colonists were fervently anti-catholic. And several of the 13 colonies claimed the Mississipi River as their western border. The Quebec Act was one of several acts of Parliament the American colonists lumped together as the "intolerable acts". Most of the other acts were aimed at punishing Boston and Massachusetts for their rebellious acts, instead they galvinized the other colonies to support the Bostonians. The article you quoted may have been an attempt to invite the Canadians into the union of American states, but it wasn't well recieved. The next year Benedict Arnold led an unsuccessful attack on Quebec. Hope that helps some. Happy Canada day to you!

Timehiker


05 Jul 00 - 12:59 AM (#251992)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: Escamillo

I can only speak for my country (Argentina) and no one else, said that, I think that the only ones who deserve our homage were those who gave their lives (or whose lives were taken, or ruined) for that high ideal. The rest was no more than a positive political change of direction, and never a revolution, since:
- We all received a nationality but 99% did not receive a single piece of land.
- Customs offices started to feed another's pockets.
- Same with taxes
- Natives did not receive any special consideration
- Slavery was not abolished
- War continued against natives and neighbours to extend and "privatize" the territory
- War continued against political adversaries
- A Constitution was only a dream, carefully postponed.
I can┤t imagine myself saying goodbye to three sons. That┤s guts. In that sense, I humbly wish you all a happy celebration of the 4th July, and Canadians (late) for the 1st.
Un abrazo - AndrÚs (a "sudaca" ) :)


05 Jul 00 - 01:05 AM (#251996)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: catspaw49

After an evening of great food and sitting out watching fireworks from 6 different communities and blowing up the supply of crappola which I brought back from Tennessee (with only a few minor burns), its great to see the real soul of Mudcat from Moon and MANY others on this thread. I just wanted to check in and say that

I like to focus on the similarities........

Spaw-capableofbeatinganydeadhorsesignificantly


05 Jul 00 - 07:02 AM (#252080)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST

To all you septic tanks happy 4th of july.


05 Jul 00 - 07:32 PM (#252505)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane

Thanks a lot Peter T, Margo and Timehiker for your input to my questions, from which it would appear:

"Thats there is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know."

Harry S. Truman


05 Jul 00 - 11:18 PM (#252646)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,TuttiFrutti

This is the 2nd year in a row that I've missed the Independence Day celebrations--which reminds me of a corny joke: Do the British have July 4th? So ok--I haven't missed July 4th. My British(and Welsh)husband often refers to me as a 'colonial wench' and often someone calls me a 'Yank'--which makes me laugh because I'm from Texas, and occasionally someone will ask me if I'm Canadian--and I smile and say 'No, but I would love to visit Canada one of these days.' No offense taken at any of these--because they were never offered with resentment. I do love living in the UK--but I can honestly say 'Thank goodness we broke away!' If anyone in the USA thinks our taxes are out of control--come live in Britain for a while. You will--like I have--learn to appreciate what you took for granted. Just had to put my 2 cents/pence in! Hope everyone enjoyed their day!


06 Jul 00 - 01:30 AM (#252696)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: bob jr

hey tutti frutti ...paid for any health care or dental bills lately? thats another thing we canadians share with england but not with our american nieghbors free health care (although not dental coverage dang!} as a former citizen of the uk all i can say about the taxation is you get what you pay for but you want to compare infant mortality rates between canada us and england and lets say cuba you are gonna be disappointed


06 Jul 00 - 01:36 AM (#252699)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: DougR

bob jr: free health care? I assumed it was paid for with the taxes you pay. Es not so?

DougR


06 Jul 00 - 11:12 PM (#253210)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: InOBU

Couple of observations:,br> To the questions about how natives feel about the fourth, Many North Eastern nations remember England made better treaties and kept them better than the United States and some celibrate with an American flag barbique. As to the observation we have it good here as opposed to the great over there, we cause more than our share of the missery "over there" and as you chear the American warplanes flying over head for the fourth, don't forget the civilians under them who every once and a while get a bomb droped on their heads, paid for by your taxes
Happy fourth just the same...
Larry
PS, I don't mind being called colonial or anything else, as long as I am not called British when I am at home in Ireland. But Liz, I am also part Geordie, as I seem to remember you are as well, eh? Some don't like being called Geordie, but I've always found it a bit of a comfort like


07 Jul 00 - 08:50 AM (#253352)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: GUEST,TuttiFrutti

Nothing is free, man--and that includes the so-called free healthcare in the UK. I pay more a month for this 'free healthcare' than I ever did paying for medical insurance in the US. But you are right Bob jr--it is a free service--one of my closest friends had a back injury which resulted in 2 ruptured discs--very painful and dibilitating. Guess how long she was on a National Insurance waiting list to see the specialist? An entire year and three weeks passed before she could get in to see the specialist and in the time she was waiting, her own GP could only offer pain killers and sympathy. Most people I know over here are making the change to privatised medical. Infant mortality rate? I would invite you back over to Scotland or Wales to have a look at infant mortality first hand--not just reading the stats that are manipulated by political and health authorities. In this past year, meningitis has been a primary killer of kids in the area where I live in the UK --not to mention babies being born with heart disease--we've lost 2 lovely kids in the neighbourhood this past year from it. Now saying that--I also know of certain areas--specifically South Texas in the US where the infant mortality rate is terrible--probably due to polluted water supply. Anyway, I didn't write in to 'knock' the UK--I'm living here by choice and I love it--what I am saying is that on the whole--the USA is not a terrible place to live. The taxes aren't THAT terrible (no tv license fee, no 17.5% sales tax--or vat, no poll tax-which is now called the County Fund tax in which we pay taxes every month on each person living in our house, no matter if we own the house or rent it). The petrol and car taxes are a bit more--but the USA has those also--depending on which state one lives, and of course there's the NHS--which we've covered already. And no--there is no such thing as free dental over here. Ok--I'll jump down off my soap-box now :) Ta!


07 Jul 00 - 08:04 PM (#253779)
Subject: RE: BS: Happy Holidays, Colonials!!
From: McGrath of Harlow

I think it's quite big of the people living in The Big Country That Is Mostly South of Canada and North of Mexico to have an Australian as a national hero in that remake of Braveheart set on the other side of the Atlantic.

But "Chicken Run" is the real Mel Gibson movie to see, I understand.