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Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?

17 Apr 00 - 12:26 PM (#213146)
Subject: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Peter T.

Can anyone shed some light on this song? Stewie generously sent me a fabulous tape of Al O'Donnell songs some months ago, and I have become hooked like an addict on this utterly beautiful song. It needs some cleaning up -- name of town, is the phrase "coolin jas machree" remotely anything, and what does the phrase about the copse (?) mean. Any other info would of course be gratefully appreciated.

Oh say did you see her
by the gloaming or the sunrise
as she stepped like a fawn in Bailanagurr --
or sang far sweeter than the lark or thrush at eventide.
Red ripened her cheek is,
Like the berry upon a tree
and her neck more graceful than the swan is,
her lips like petals from the red rose smile on me.
When she was a little girl,
and I a tender child I loved her,
But her parents' money placed between us
So farewell my coolin jas machree (?)
Fair Flower of Bailenagurr (?)
Wait for me forever,
By the place where we lay alone,
Through the night where the elfinstone winds whistle
and the old ash tremble in the dark with fearful moan.
I will come to my coolin'
Ere the life of my copse shall wander (?)
and will hold as I did when in my childhood
my little jewelled flower of Bailanagurr. (?)


17 Apr 00 - 02:43 PM (#213212)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Áine

Dear Peter,

coolin jas machree is a phonetic spelling of the phrase cúilín deas mo chroí, which translates (loosely) to "sweet fair (haired) maiden of my heart."

-- Áine


17 Apr 00 - 02:45 PM (#213215)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Peter T.

Thanks Aine, much appreciated. yours, Peter T.


17 Apr 00 - 03:20 PM (#213241)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,David Ingerson

Peter,

The town might be Ballinagar, Co. Offaly. Or it might be Ballynacard (Offaly), or Ballynagarde (Limerick), or Ballynagard (Derry), or possibly any number of Ballynagalls in Ireland.


17 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM (#213262)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: John Moulden

Not "copse" - "corpse"

Ere the life from(?) my corpse shall wander


17 Apr 00 - 04:48 PM (#213278)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Áine

Thanks, John -- I was wondering whether this was song about the 'Scottish Play'...

-- Áine


17 Apr 00 - 05:03 PM (#213291)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Peter T.

Sure, why didn't I get that. All that ash I guess. But he quite clearly sings "Ere the life of my copse shall wander"....yours, Peter T.


18 Apr 00 - 11:49 AM (#213710)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: John Moulden

I don't have the recording and haven't met him in ages but I'm certain that Al sang "corpse" when I heard him.

The air - which has not been mentioned - is The Coolin. Words for this are something of a mystery - I believe that no "original" words are known, instead there have been several attempts at writing verses for the air in Irish and in English and some of them have been translated into the other language.

It's my memory that the words under discussion are by Donagh McDonagh. Frank O'Connor wrote (or translated) another set.


18 Apr 00 - 12:26 PM (#213738)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,Peter T.

Completely beautiful air. John, any help on the place name? yours, Peter T.


19 Apr 00 - 07:35 AM (#214219)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: John Moulden

I'm afraid not. As I say above, the history of the words of this song means that it is probably completely arbitrary. I'll inquire but not at any length because I'm busy and contact you if I find anything


19 Apr 00 - 09:00 AM (#214247)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Peter T.

Much appreciated, as ever. yours, Peter T.


16 Jun 00 - 04:50 AM (#243272)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Wolfgang

Say, Peter, this song's in demand (see Lyr req ...Coolin thread), shouldn't we post here a 'final' version for easy harvesting for the DT? I have found another transcription (sorry, no source) from the Al O'Donnell LP with tiny differences. I have the O'Donnell record, but the remaining differences are so tiny (in sound and semantics) that it surpasses my abilities to give a valid opinion.
Here are the differences:
- The transcriber has Ballynagore as the town but says that it sounds rather like 'Baylinagore' (which isn't an Irish town). My personal preference would be Ballinagar (see David above)
- line 2: 'by the gloaming o'er the sunrise' (the sound gives no clue, but semantics speak for 'or')
- line 3: 'faun' (again, semantics speak for 'fawn')
- line 4: 'even time' (I understand that 'even' means 'evening' and with that 'time' makes sense)
- line 7 from below: 'elfin storm winds whistle' (the sound of 'winds' rhymes with 'finds'; sounds possible to me)
- line 3 from below: 'of my corpse' (that's what I hear too, though 'from' makes much more sense)

Your opinion? (or Stewie, if you read this)

And then one of us should make a fine version for harvesting including Áine's line.

Wolfgang


16 Jun 00 - 08:28 AM (#243311)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,Peter T.

Hi Wolfgang -- if you want to go ahead and adjust your earlier version, that is O.K., with me. I have been learning and playing this for some time now. I agree with all your corrections, except that in line 4 I hear "eventide". The only problem I have with the translation as a whole is that the line "My heart wouldn't be weaving like the lark at dawn" is, as far as I can tell, contrary to the spirit of this part of the song (If I could believe they are coming I would be cheered up). It should probably be something like "my heart would be soaring like the lark and dawn", but of course then you miss the internal rhyme of the "e's". Still, it is a little irritating.
yours, Peter T.


16 Jun 00 - 08:29 AM (#243312)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,Peter T.

Sorry, "lark at dawn".


16 Jun 00 - 09:01 AM (#243322)
Subject: Lyr Add: CÚILÍN (THE COOLIN)
From: Wolfgang

OK, so here's a version ready to harvest:

CÚILÍN (THE COOLIN)
(Dominic Behan?/ McDonagh?)

Oh say did you see her
by the gloaming or the sunrise
as she stepped like a fawn in Ballinagar
or sang far sweeter than the lark or thrush at eventide.
Red ripened her cheek is,
Like the berry upon a tree
and her neck more graceful than the swan is,
her lips like petals from the red rose smile on me.
When she was a little girl,
and I a tender child I loved her,
But her parents' money placed between us
So farewell my cúilín deas mo chroí
Fair Flower of Ballinagar
Wait for me forever,
By the place where we lay alone,
Through the night where the elfin storm winds whistle
and the old ash tremble in the dark with fearful moan.
I will come to my cúilín
Ere the life from my corpse shall wander
and will hold as I did when in my childhood
my little jewelled flower of Ballinagar.

Notes: Translated (rewritten) from an older Irish song. The town named could be any other with a similar pronounciation. The phrase cúilín deas mo chroí translates (loosely) to "sweet fair (haired) maiden of my heart."

Wolfgang


16 Jun 00 - 09:05 AM (#243324)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,Peter T.

Thanks, Wolfgang. It is such a pretty, and easy song to play -- open G (G, D, C) in Al O'Donnell's version. Yours, Peter T.


19 Apr 03 - 08:20 AM (#936409)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Ballinagar
From: GUEST,Philippa

regarding ""Béal Átha na gCarr", Douglas Hyde wrote in his notes to "Love Songs of Connacht":
"The song of the the Coolun is generally associated with Belanagare, in Roscommon, from the first verse, which usually runs "I mBeul-Áth-na-gCarr atá an stáidbhean bhreágh mhodhamhail", but my enquiries on the spot have elicited nothing to throw light upon it, nor does the song seem well known in the vicinity, so I fancy it must have originated in some other place of the same name."

perhaps it was the Béal Átha na gCarr, Ballinagar, of County Offally?


19 Apr 03 - 10:36 AM (#936449)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,Peter T.

Thanks Philippa, been at this one a long time! yours, Peter T.


07 Aug 10 - 10:14 PM (#2960363)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,Brendan Manson

1) I'm in favour of 'o'er the sunrise' as the gloaming is defined as the period just before sunrise, a time when things unearthly might happen.

2)I am in agreement with Bellanagare County Roscommon, due to the fact that approximatly 13km due east of Bellanagare lies the village of Elphin also County Roscommon. This would ammend the line to: ' Through the night where the Elphin storm winds whistle'.

I live in Galway and the predominant winds are from S.West and West (mild and wet). The Elphin to Bellanagare wind would be an easterly (cold in winter and not unusually stormy)
I saw Al O'Donnell in Galway recently but unfortunatly he did'nt sing the Cúilín.


08 Aug 10 - 12:12 AM (#2960401)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,leeneia

Thanks for reviving this thread, Brendan. It's a beautiful song.


08 Aug 10 - 06:23 AM (#2960493)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: Gutcher

It may be different in Ireland Brendan but here in Scotland gloaming is only used to denote the late evening at sunset and never, by any
native at least, for the period before sunrise.
Joe.


09 Aug 10 - 03:14 PM (#2961337)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,Brendan Manson

Sorry Joe, I stand corrected and thus will go with 'or the sunrise'. I've actually never heard the term 'gloaming' used in Ireland and a search suggested 'twilight at sunrise or sunset' although some state the gloaming to be specifically 'eventide'.


09 Aug 10 - 03:36 PM (#2961355)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,^&*

I've never heard or seen "gloaming" used in Ireland other than in poetry or (poetic) song where it refers to evening.


27 Jun 11 - 01:43 AM (#3176986)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST

Finbar furey played the greatest version of the coolin that Ive heard on the Uilleann Pipes (irish bagpipes). I think thier are two different versions but the original air was written by an Irish bard in the 1400s. Finbar won the irish bagpipes championship about 30 times and he was recorded playing his version in a documentary on the Uilleann Pipes. I think its probably the best piece of Irish music Ive heard. If youd like to hear. Heres the link http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8243279103203760824#. If you havent heard it already. I like it too and have been tryin to do some research on it and came across this thread.


09 Feb 13 - 03:51 PM (#3477642)
Subject: RE: Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr?
From: GUEST,PhilipF

Great Thread as I have been hunting for the exact lyrics. One point. I believe one line should read not 'her parents' money placed between us' but should have no possessive apostrophe ie the parents placed money between them in the sense that they divided them by the issue of his lack of wealth and she would need find a wealthier suitor.