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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

22 Aug 20 - 02:10 AM (#4069114)
Subject: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

As there has been none of the regular infighting, circular arguments or abuse on the UK Labour party thread for weeks now and I have had no objection from the moderation team about starting new political threads I think it is safe to assume the issues have been resolved.

I have copied DMcG's post to kick this one off. Hope that's OK, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:08 PM

Nothing to do with Labour again: another Brexit consequence.

"EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.

When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

Bit of a shame for those concerned about "all these illegal immigrants", I suspect.


I agree. Brexit is nearly on us and while it is just one of the many failings of the Tory government, it does deserve a thread of its own. I may start another on the other disasters.

Nope. This one can run because it has been quieter lately, but several others intended to cause chaos are being thinned out. Mudcat is a music site and the amount of political fighting in the BS threads from the general direction of the UK and environs is too disruptive to much of the membership who come here for music. ---mudelf


22 Aug 20 - 03:14 AM (#4069122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

why?other disasters, covid 19?
Iwas cycling along yesterday, and stopped to say hello to a walker who used to play trad music, he got on the subject of covid as soon as he could, quote
the trouble began when they restricted congregations of churches t less than 50, it is the house of god, god is all powerful, you are safe inthe house of god unless you are an atheist or communist.
the alternative round here is to talk to sheep, the conversation is equally perplexing


22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM (#4069124)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all.


22 Aug 20 - 03:36 AM (#4069125)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

Goggle Ads posted "the 10 best Casinos on line" at the top of this thread. Goggle knows everything about us, so what are they telling us this time?

I posit they are whispering Brinkmanship - the kind that doesn't have a contingency plan in case of rare but inevitable far reaching serious interventions.

And that intervention happened like shit does, when you leave things to the last minute.

Did they "beware what you wish for"? we have less than 6 months to find out what they** wished for. The bet is we will get just that. Then we will habituate to the new normal, and we will blame Brexshit and they will blame COVID and everyone will think they are correct.

**we should be obvious but who are they ? Fakebook & St Petersberg come into that equation IMNSHO.


22 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM (#4069129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Mr Red:
You're probably right about 'brinkmanship', but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Dave the Gnome:
Interesting to see that the original quote (whatever its unstated origin) mentions refugees and migrants . It seems someone at least accepts that not all those arriving are actually 'refugees'.

Maybe this time around we will see a discussion based more on facts than on suppositions. We can but hope.


22 Aug 20 - 05:43 AM (#4069131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

As a partial answer to the usual question of why families are risking crossing the English Channel, this quote:

Though it is hard to grasp at first sight why any family would sleep in a wood rather than apply for asylum in France, the families and the charities who support them say the official accommodation centres are dirty, frightening and inappropriate for vulnerable families.
Armed police try to get families on to buses, tearing up tents. After a certain number of days families must apply to stay in France, and many do not want to do that.
One father told Fallowfield: “If the French would give us even basic support, I would go to the accommodation centre for my children’s sake. But they treat us like animals.”
Like other families here, he sees trying to reach the UK as his only option. “I have destroyed my life for my children to have a better future. I don’t want my kids to grow up where someone can brainwash them and make them kill for a living. Islamic State came to our country and that’s why I have come to this shit place. It’s the hardest job in the world being a parent.”

From The Guardian

So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?


22 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM (#4069133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Firstly, of course I have no objection to copying my post as an introduction to this thread.

I find it a bit of a stretch to imagine many people voting to leave because they were dismayed of what was happening to refugees and migrants in France and thought we should be treating them here and better. So that seems to be rather beside the original issue, which was the loss of the right to send such people who get to the UK back to the EU countries. Even last night on Newsnight one of the Conservative MPs for an area in Kent - I forget which - was stressing the importance of the Dublin Agreement.


22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM (#4069138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either. I'm not sure how your quote from the Guardian answers anything though. After the end of this year we will have no right to send anyone entering this country illegally back to their country of EU entry. I think DMcG's point about this ruling being against what some leavers voted for is still valid.


22 Aug 20 - 10:11 AM (#4069162)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

So,if we can no longer return failed asylum seekers to France from 1 January, we will need to repatriate them to their homes, which is also an option. BBC: Failed asylum seekers
While this is more difficult than just returning them to France, it does stop them immediately re-joining the camps at Calais and trying again.


22 Aug 20 - 10:27 AM (#4069164)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.

There is no doubt that Europe has something to lose by not securing a deal. But the UK has more to lose. So playing my "life ain't binary" card, I am of the opinion that the brinkmanship is more irresponsible when the loss is the greater.

Change costs money, and this change will cost, and payback is ill-defined. Making deals at the last minute means dependent systems/infrastructure will be formulated in a hurry, and mistakes will be made. Which is why change costs more money. Which is why the UK has more to lose.


22 Aug 20 - 01:28 PM (#4069187)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Absolutely, Mr Red. I have nothing against change. Some of my best results in life have come though drastic change. But change for changes sake or, even worse, change when you have no idea what you are changing to is a nightmare.


22 Aug 20 - 02:07 PM (#4069192)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

we can repatriate failed asylum seekers. Which means after their case has been reviewed. This is unlike the Dublin Agreement under which we could send them to France immediately, I believe. We cannot return a successful asylum seeker who is recognised as a refugee, but again a number would have been returned to France and the decision taken there, leaving France to host the refugee.

So while we can indeed send failed asylum seekers home, the number remaining in the UK is likely to be higher if we do not get agreement in place. Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.


22 Aug 20 - 02:51 PM (#4069193)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.
And which is why, while negotiations are ongoing, we do not know what will be needed.


22 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM (#4069194)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Mr Red:
Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.


At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned. Only those involved in the negotiations, UK & EU, can employ brinkmanship. St Petersburg is a non sequitur


22 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM (#4069206)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

"So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?"

I need to learn bow to do the italics.....

SO maybe if the racist little ****s in the UK were to make a serious and equal commitment to helping with refugee resettlement, countries that are doing far more than us like France and Germany would be under far less economic pressure.

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


22 Aug 20 - 05:01 PM (#4069207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?
Any chance we can have that comment in English?


22 Aug 20 - 06:54 PM (#4069218)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

also it is well documented that English is more widely spoken around (the world than other European languages. I hope you are not too) tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


23 Aug 20 - 03:16 AM (#4069262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

Why? round and round in circles yet another discussion that gets nowhere, entrenched opinions, what a waste of time, bring back Jim, his style of insult was not as imaginative as MGM, but it provided a relief from the ennui of the fellow with his fishing rod .


23 Aug 20 - 03:23 AM (#4069266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.

You have been prepared in the past to accept their may be short term damage to the UK because of Brexit but that in the long term that is an acceptable cost to get the benefits*. I don't see why you can't say the same here: it is less than we wanted but in the long term we can absorb any disadvantages. Instead you seem to be suggesting it is not significant.

* With no estimate of the likelihood of that 'may' or hint of what 'short term' might be in practice.


23 Aug 20 - 04:57 AM (#4069281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned

We can all nitpick when we favour parts not the whole. Which, let's face it, is why we have Brexshit.

And external parties pushing propaganda via social media.
Who has the most to gain from a divided Europe?
Who has the effrontery to poison people in other countries?
Manipulating Fakebook barely registers on the poison scale.


23 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM (#4069292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

St Petersburg is a non sequitur

Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Dick, up to now no one is insulting anyone. Apart from you. It is not necessary, it is counter productive and it gets threads closed. We can now, hopefully, have a serious discussion where people disagree but respect each other's views and have threads without the rancour that has plagued earlier attempts.


23 Aug 20 - 06:40 AM (#4069294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

Good post, Dave.


23 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM (#4069298)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I agree. I will not push the Dublin Agreement issues furthwr unless something changes. Those who wish have set out their views and that ahiykd be enough.


23 Aug 20 - 10:44 AM (#4069317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Wow, what was that word supposed to be? 'should', believe it or not.


23 Aug 20 - 04:18 PM (#4069367)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Jos

I'm getting the hang of these typos now - just look at the letters to the right or left on the keyboard. It gets confusing though when the 'words' include some correct letters. You just need to guess which ones.


24 Aug 20 - 02:54 AM (#4069414)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I spotted it, Dave :-)


24 Aug 20 - 03:17 AM (#4069415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I'd being staying at a Premier Inn after visiting my children. My wife called out out that we need to leave for breakfast now to get to them, so "I'll just finish this post before we dash off"...


I do make far fewer typos when I use my laptop, but the phone is a bit of a disaster for them, I am afraid. And I rarely think my posts have enough merit to justify the sort of attention a thesis, job or application or report would get.


Meanwhile, back to Brexit. This comment from the EU that the negotiations are going backwards seems to have stirred some Brexiteers I read elsewhere into action.   They interpret it as saying what the EU wanted is not being achieved but the UK is holding firm and the EU is gradually realising it. Seems unlikely to me: the 'going backwards' phrase to me would be saying that things that had been agreed were not longer being agreed to. To what extent that is talking about things in the WA that the UK is trying to get out of, as opposed to things agreed in principle at the start of this batch of negotiations but no longer accepted is hard to tell. Certainly, there is plenty of the former.


24 Aug 20 - 06:39 AM (#4069424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Interesting remark in "The New European" from Alistair Campbell - I know, ad hominem away! - but I think it it true. It has been a long time since I heard this myself:


As for Brexit, even its high priests have given up singing its praises. I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I heard anyone saying how great it was going to be for the country. It has taken on the feel of a trip to the dentist, or filling in your tax form.

Just got to be done.


Your experiences may differ, of course.


24 Aug 20 - 07:09 AM (#4069426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG:
It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.
I am not dismissing the issue. But it is not as yet something which is 'set in stone'. Despite the initial post with an uncredited quote:
EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.
When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."


"The EU negotiators have dismissed". Yes, they've also dismissed the UK keeping its own (internationally agreed) fishing rights, and the UK have dismissed EU claims to UK fishing rights. This is all still under negotiation. To choose one particular 'dismissal' by EU as final is a poor starting point for any discussion.

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK of leaving the EU, but there would also be costs in remaining. I still believe the vote on leaving had the correct result.


24 Aug 20 - 07:15 AM (#4069427)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave the Gnome
Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Yes, I saw reports on "Russian involvement in British politics". I did not see that it included (even in the Guardian) involvement in Brexit. In fact there were complaints that involvement in Brexit was excluded from the remit of the reports.
Perhaps you saw different reports.

Guardian:Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did


24 Aug 20 - 07:48 AM (#4069431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK

Last time we discussed this, Nigel, you objected to a use of 'will' and insisted on a 'may'. Has that changed?


24 Aug 20 - 09:48 AM (#4069437)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

It may be that I was responding to something more specific.


24 Aug 20 - 10:02 AM (#4069441)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)


24 Aug 20 - 11:07 AM (#4069444)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Rain Dog

Well I would think that most people would agree that there will be extra cost involved in the immediate future. Of course we will have to wait and see if the cost of leaving works out cheaper down the line.


24 Aug 20 - 11:29 AM (#4069448)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Yes, Rain Dog, they do now. That doesn't mean they did before.

Of course, as soon as you admit costs, it is reasonable to expect some sort of cost benefit analysis, preferably with more depth than 'perhaps it will work out in the end.'


25 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM (#4069544)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG
I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.
I hate to suggest that you haven't actually quoted me because I didn't insist, as claimed: that costs only 'may' occur. If I've found the same quote as you (27 Jan 2019) it says: "And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out."   The 'possibility' of 'hardships' is different to the 'need' for 'costs'.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)
So much for the numerous arguments, made many times on these threads (by remainers) that such a deal would never be accepted by the US.

My full quote, in context, is here: Here


25 Aug 20 - 06:07 AM (#4069546)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

We are trying to avoid arguments on this generation of the many threads, so I will simply say that if a cost is not a hardship, you are in a very fortunate position.

Let's move on!


25 Aug 20 - 06:15 AM (#4069549)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

A cost is certainly not the same thing as a hardship, and to try to conflate the two in order to get away with a misquote is misleading. Everyone has 'costs' every day, that does not mean that they are suffering from 'hardships'.
However, as you say, Let's move on.


25 Aug 20 - 09:01 AM (#4069565)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either.


25 Aug 20 - 04:53 PM (#4069619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

A very interesting piece by Brendan Donnelly Here. I wonder how the Leave-Brigade will dress up the impending shit-show to make it appear as a resounding success?


25 Aug 20 - 06:11 PM (#4069633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.

Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some.of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


26 Aug 20 - 02:34 AM (#4069665)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Well, not really.


26 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM (#4069670)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.

Howver, something else about the headline you reerence, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it? The right wing press who are owned, in the main, by a dysfunctional Australian billionaire, a tax-exile Lord and a Russian family with close links to the KGB. These people have their own agenda and you can be sure that the welfare of the British people is not on it.


26 Aug 20 - 03:58 AM (#4069673)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I think many of them were, but were dismissed as 'Project Fear'. The main difference this time is that it is the current government considering them, which is of course very much a "Leave" government.

How likely they are will vary. A shortage of some foodstuffs in December seems very likely to me, as we all remember the Great Pasta Shortage at the start of the virus outbreak. I can see that being repeated with a much wider set of foods fairly easily. Power cuts seem less likely to me.

===

I have been thinking a little about the fabled cliff edge, which has not been mentioned for some time. As with so much to do with Brexit, it is remarkably ill defined, so let me tell you how I think of it.

Let's start with the concept of a 'transition'. In the ideal world, we start with a known situation (for example set of rules and regulations) and a destination (with its spelled out set of rules and regulations.) During the transition, firms have, say, two years to implement the IT systems, carry out staff training and whatever so that at the end of the transition period they are ready to go under the new system.   The less time they have to do this - one year rather than two, say - the more difficult it is.   We are currently in the position that with four months to go, very little is known about the final state. Consequently, it is extremely difficult for anyone to have the appropriate IT, training and other preparation.

It turns out that whatever we have called it, we have not had a 'transition period', as few if any firms has had a chance to transition. We have simply had an extended negotiation period and called it a 'transition period'.

This to me is 'the cliff edge': it is not primarily economic. It is the need for firms to adapt to a substantially different way of working with little or no notice. An announcement on 31 December of the new rules that people have to follow from 1st Jan, or even with three months holiday from one side but not the other or whatever, is a cliff edge.

Trying to cope with such changes will almost certainly have significant economic effects, but they are consequences of the regulatory cliff edge.

Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.


26 Aug 20 - 04:33 AM (#4069679)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

”Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.”

And, without doubt, they will disagree - having voted for Christmas, the turkeys are very unlikely to want to face the fact that, in the near future, their silly, easily-led heads will be separated from their Union-Flag-bedecked bodies (metaphorically speaking, of course!).


26 Aug 20 - 04:45 AM (#4069681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

From DMcG:
For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.
Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


Immediately followed by Dave the Gnome:
I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Possibly because they weren't understood at the time, particularly the risk of a second wave of Coronavirus when we hadn't had a first wave. To what extent may that second wave exacerbate any possible problems at borders, how could that have been foretold?


26 Aug 20 - 04:53 AM (#4069682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave the Gnome:
Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.
My post was a direct response to your claim that the report had detailed involement in Brexit.
"Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now".
Which you now appear to accept that it didn't.

However, something else about the headline you reference, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it?

No, I am not making that claim, I was just emphasising that the left wing press had already accepted that the report did not include Brexit.


26 Aug 20 - 05:51 AM (#4069690)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.


26 Aug 20 - 03:10 PM (#4069724)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I agree the risks due to the near simultaneous end of transition and the virus could not have been foretold specifically in 2016. There was, of course, a more generalised concern about a pandemic, but obviously at a much lower probability.

On the other hand the presentation is dated June and it was the 13th of July that Gove formally announced the transition would end in January 2021. So this government consciously accepted all the risks that have been outlined. A risk is not a certainty, of course, but the increased risk is a deliberate choice.


26 Aug 20 - 03:42 PM (#4069728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Scrap that, sorry. The document is labelled July, not June. So we cannot be certain whether the government saw the document and then announced the end of transition, or the other way around.   If it is the other way round, though, it would seem rather lackadaisical to make an announcement and then only get a presentation on the consequences sometime over the next two weeks.


26 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM (#4069733)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.

I'm not trying to derail the discussion, your original claim was that Russian involvement in Brexit was in the report. Which you now seem to accept it was not.

Accepting that the statement was in error is a much better way of getting the discussion to move on than trying to justify your original claim.


27 Aug 20 - 02:24 AM (#4069781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Everyone but you understood my point, Nigel. The Russian involvement in British politics was the point behind the real original post mentioning St Petersberg. Nitpicking at its very best. Well done, Nigel, you win. I shall not take the thread any further off track.


27 Aug 20 - 03:01 AM (#4069787)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

I reckon johnson is preparing to use ill health as an excuse to run away from responsiblities regarding Brexit in JAN FEB 2021.


27 Aug 20 - 03:19 AM (#4069788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

You may well be right, Sandman, through it is also possible the party 'persuades' Johnson to quit. The more I think abut it, though, the more complications I see and so I am very loathe to make any predictions on the matter.


27 Aug 20 - 03:28 AM (#4069789)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

The whole brexit debacle has been a fiasco from the start and I cannot see it being any different at the end. Not that it will end in December. The effects will be with us forever. The one lesson that we can come away with is that this is what you get by pandering to right wing xenophobes. I only hope that future governments will take heed.


27 Aug 20 - 12:33 PM (#4069865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

imo johnson is a political opportunist who plays the populist card. Mussolini did this and ended upside down hanging ignominously with his mistress.
for our USA friends. Mussolini [IL DUCE] was an italian fascist Right wing xenophobe


29 Aug 20 - 07:01 AM (#4070047)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I talked above about a 'cliff edge' being less about a direct economic one but much more a consequence of a regulatory cliff edge where what needs to be done is not known until just before it needs to be implemented.

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

I think that is a good indicator that is what we might look forward to at the end of December.


29 Aug 20 - 09:17 AM (#4070053)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Stilly River Sage

The old history stuff is completely understood, Dick. No need to patronize. It's the modern stuff that is an incomprehensible tangle. But then, who are we to criticize until we get the current occupant out of the White House? We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.


29 Aug 20 - 02:04 PM (#4070089)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

And some people claim that the government's instructions are indecipherable.


29 Aug 20 - 02:49 PM (#4070092)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

If anyone else agrees it is indecipherable I will happily rewrite it. I accept the sentence is quite long and elaborate, but it is hardly of the complexity of Ulysses.


01 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM (#4070317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

The government's instruction do not provide clear instruction on how to gauatnatee freedom of movement, which only pathetic racists and wannabe neo-****s are against.


01 Sep 20 - 06:53 AM (#4070321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Donuel

cliff edge? More like freefall.


01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM (#4070341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Brexit: Boris Johnson signals no-deal increasingly likely and hits out at EU for refusing to compromise

So much for an 'over ready deal'. Or was the deal just assuming the EU would give up and let the UK have whatever it wanted?


01 Sep 20 - 09:25 AM (#4070342)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

If Johnson was a character in Game of Thrones, his name would be ‘Boris the Blame-Shifter’. It’s the only thing he and Rasputin Cummings are any good at. And lying, of course.


02 Sep 20 - 02:54 AM (#4070430)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

and that ahiykd be enough

ahiykd we call that a micro-coffefe ?

and

I am getting a de ja vu moment or is it an analogue? When the resurrectors** of Adderbury Morris spoke to the old boys who had been Morris dancers before WW1, they found that the reason the Morris faded was that their agenda had changed. There were more important things to address. So the relatively slow progress of this thread looks to show how much COVID has trumped the debate.

**as reported in "They Way of the Morris"


02 Sep 20 - 03:52 AM (#4070438)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Yes and no, Mr Red. One important difference is that it is very likely that we will find a vaccine for covid in a year or two at most, if it is possible at all. After that point, it will be of much lower concern, though there will be more awareness of the risks of similar diseases, with a bit of luck.

The consequences of the trade agreements we reach will have effects lasting decades. The Brexit supporting Professor Minford said this included major reductions, or even elimination, of the UK industrial and farming sectors, for example.

So it is completely understandable that the majority of most people's attention is on covid. Mine is as well. But that does not make the trade deals we come up with unimportant.


02 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM (#4070491)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

Brexit, is appearing to be a big mistake.


02 Sep 20 - 12:52 PM (#4070492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Raggytash

some of us realised that four years ago.


03 Sep 20 - 02:04 AM (#4070562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

yes,raggytash you were not the only one 49 per cent thought so, but with the addition of covid it appears to be an even bigger mistake


03 Sep 20 - 07:28 AM (#4070597)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

Yes and no, Mr Red.

But after a year's testing and trickle feeding out the vaccine to the most deserving in society, assuming the world can produce enough effective vaccine in a year. Do you have any idea of the logistics involved? Do we have enough chickens to make all the eggs? And if we do, less eggs for eating & up goes the price of eggs on the retail market.

Brexshit will be a reality and the price of eggs (et al) will be rising as a result. And which will be the more scary?
1) The UK out on a limb with few deals in place and new systems in place like customs deflating the excitement of foreign travel.
2) Or Travel abroad pretty scary on its own, with uncertainty if getting home un-plannable ahead and how much quarantine necessary on return. Not to mention the long term affects of surviving the virus!

My point was: Brexshit will be a lesser concern by comparison, and it can be endured, and enduring it will be. History tells us. If we listen.


03 Sep 20 - 01:23 PM (#4070633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

IF IRELAND gains unification an extra cost would be placed on europe and a financial burden would betaken off the uk economy, maybe the uk should rejoin europe?


09 Sep 20 - 02:56 PM (#4071340)
Subject: BS: Breaking International Law
From: SPB-Cooperator

I am reluctant to begin a new thread on UK politics, but I cannot find another thread to post this to. If their is an active thread, maybe the mods can move this post.

In the UK, the Northern Island Secretary stated that it is fine for the government to go against international law and pass legislation that goes against an internationally agreed treaty and therefore international law for the sake of domestic expediency.

What is telling is the following question and answer at the beginning of Prime Minister's question time. (source Hansard)

Munira Wilson
If Ministers think it is acceptable for this Government to not obey the law, how on earth can the Prime Minister expect the public at home to do so?

The Prime Minister
We expect everybody in this country to obey the law.

The hypocrisy of the reply says everything.


09 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM (#4071344)
Subject: RE: BS: Breaking International Law
From: Joe Offer

It does seem that hypocrisy is the Rule of Law these days, doesn't it? I heard a radio program the other day about a wonderful new museum that opened recently near Gdansk. It was intended to tell the story of the history of Poland during World War II. The current government completely repurposed the museum, so that nothing negative is said about the conduct of Poland or the Polish people during the war.

It seems that too many countries have been following this path recently. Honesty is no longer important.

Trump has just cancelled all racial healing classes that were being taught for government employees, saying that is "unAmerican" to teach that there is racism in our country.

-Joe-


10 Sep 20 - 01:57 AM (#4071400)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The latest wheeze of Johnson to try to unilaterally alter an international agreement - i.e. break the international law - is being criticised is the House of Representatives, where several representatives are making clear they have no intention of agreeing a US-UK Trade deal if there is any threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Heaven knows the USA has bigger issues to deal with at the moment that they need to focus on, but that's the thing about international law: it has international effects.


10 Sep 20 - 02:07 AM (#4071402)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What’s puzzling me is, whatever happened to the ‘Oven-Ready Deal’ that, during the GE Campaign, Johnson claimed he had negotiated, and which was ready to go?

Could it possibly have been a lie, perhaps dreamed up by Rasputin Cummings for Johnson to spout, in order to confuse feeble-minded people into voting for him?


10 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM (#4071413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

i never realised what differences there were between theresa windrush may's deal and boris f***in lying idiot johnson's deal. except that the latter had the approval of a rabid group of fascists on the tory benches. but apparently with johnson's version he has the right to just dump parts of it he doesn't like and ignore or insult our allies.

those who voted for this crew have no excuses - just saying you were inspired to leave the EU because of your racist feelings is far more creditable than saying it is because you believe that boris arrogant idiot johnson is capable of being a good prime minister and leading a competent government


12 Sep 20 - 03:14 AM (#4071596)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

History will judge Theresa May, and 'King Boris. And Mrs May will be looked on far more kindly by comparison. Yes she was ineffectual, but not because of her intellect, but because she was pushing a leviathan uphill that she didn't believe in for the sake of her tribe's unity.
Whereas Boris Turncoat Johnson just wanted to be Prime Minister.

Compare those if you will with someone who didn't even want to be leader of his party. (Was he actually ever?)

Popular vote eh? What's that worth to a pandemic ravaged principality?

And FWIW even the most optimistic pundits now forecast the financial nuclear winter I have been predicting. It ain't rocket science, change costs money, and there are now two major changes surrounding the UK. All it takes is an inevitable cold winter that must descend one day, and the mild weather we have become habituated to will throw us.
And the cry will be "The government should............."

Tell you what - my supply of non-perishables is constantly topped-up now. Against more severe lockdown &/or snow or even a personal COVID. Siege mentality maybe, but at least it is while panic-buying has faded from public consciousness.


13 Sep 20 - 08:05 PM (#4071771)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone. It was vociferously emphasised by the DUP in the Commons as the reason they had broken their alliance with the Tories, along with others.

There is no possibility that the government was no fully aware of the implications ofwhat they were signing.

But why should anyone be surprised at an English government acting in bad faith when it sees that as convenient? There's an expression "Albion perfide" which was first used as far back as the 13th century?


14 Sep 20 - 05:09 AM (#4071802)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone.

"Under duress" rather than "In bad faith". Despite Article 50 clearly stating that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed" (wording not checked, but the meaning is there). EU negotiators refused to even start discussing trade terms without an agreed payout, and other restrictions. That is what became the "Withdrawal agreement". Now that the EU (or at least Mr. Michel Barnier) are refusing to discuss trade unless we first give way on fisheries and government aid, we can see the same happening again. Article 50 (part of an international agreement) is clearly being ignored by the EU. Fortunately Boris Johnson is willing to fight fire with fire.

From the above it should be clear that I don't believe that the EU can claim the moral high ground when it comes to keeping aligned with international treaties.


14 Sep 20 - 07:38 AM (#4071811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I love this 'nothing agreed until everything is agreed' line. Some people are interpreting 'everything' to mean absolutely everything, including perhaps whether God exists.

That sentence has a scope: "everything" refers the negotiation of the Withdrawal agreement and an agreed text of the Political Declaration. Which have been agreed.


14 Sep 20 - 09:35 AM (#4071827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

The EU did indeed insist on necessary guarantees before it was willing to enter into negotiations, true enough. So if the UK was unwilling to give those guarantees the right thing would have been to accept that, and leave without a trade deal.

The problem with that would have been that, while that was fine with the clique in charge under Johnson, they could never have sold it. It would not have been acceptable to Parliament, and in fact would not have lost an awful lot of votes in the subsequent election, and they¡d never have got that stonking majority of yesmen and women.

Signing the agreement with no intention of keeping it was primarily a way of conning the British people rather than the EU. Now it looks very much as if the Johnson Mob has succeeded in enginering the no deal exit that was intended all along.

Very clever bit of management, a classic con-trick. What Baldrick would have called "a cunning plan". And we know how well those always worked out in the end...


15 Sep 20 - 09:04 AM (#4071941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

after the disgraceful decision (presumably born of jealousy) that the bbc were to stop broadcasting nicola sturgeon's daily information to scots about her government's covid strategy,we now hear that bbc 'stars' are to be stopped commenting on political matters. this is just suppression of free speech, decency and competent government . what has england become? and some people like this stuff? if you enable fascism - what are you?


16 Sep 20 - 03:44 AM (#4072050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Suppression of free speech
Curfews
Rat on your neighbours

It all sounds frighteningly familiar...


16 Sep 20 - 04:25 AM (#4072052)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There are other things I would add to that as well, Dave. For example movement of powers from Parliament to ministers is a very disturbing trend. In several bills recently, including the Internal Market, Parliament has voted not to have the authority to review minister's decisions. Obviously in the Internal market that has not yet completed, but those clauses are there.


16 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM (#4072059)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

SRS - would you have accepted the third Bush? Instead of the one in your hand.


29 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM (#4073626)
Subject: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs

At last someone prepared to speak out against the wimpie wokies!!!!!!!!!


29 Sep 20 - 03:36 PM (#4073629)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker

Oh that has-been actor, and now malleable ventriloquist's dummy for the radical right...


29 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM (#4073632)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs

That's the one!!


29 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM (#4073633)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker

What we wanna know is who is funding his newly born political aspirations,
and how many £££$$$$ they are happy to flush down the bog...???


29 Sep 20 - 08:22 PM (#4073655)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Steve Shaw

He's about as charmless and despicable as Tim "Wetherspoon" Martin, which is saying something.


30 Sep 20 - 03:27 AM (#4073671)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Nick

Lawrence Fox is a man NOT to watch. And as he has becomes more and more unemployable in what he was slightly good at ie acting he will undoubtedly end up disappearing. Hopefully.


30 Sep 20 - 02:22 PM (#4073750)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

The proliferation of UK political topics is a problem. Argue about all of it in one place, please.


30 Sep 20 - 05:42 PM (#4073782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

For all the fishermen who fell for the lie about protecting them.

Britain offers EU fishing concession as part of Brexit sweetener


30 Sep 20 - 05:46 PM (#4073783)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on. Where do things stand now?


30 Sep 20 - 06:08 PM (#4073790)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Too many of us are resigned to either being in an induced coma in intensive care, or prematurely deceased,
before any progress is made on brexit...


30 Sep 20 - 06:41 PM (#4073796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

To answer Silly's question about Brexit. We are in a very critical time as far as negotiations are concerned. There will probably be a lot of noise over the next two weeks. The EU gave until today for some clauses to be dropped from UK legislation and they have not. There is an EU meeting on 15th/16th October which Johnson has said is a deadline. The EU has said the end of October is its deadline. Meanwhile the EU has rejected a UK request for special treatment for cars assembled from Japanese parts (etc) to be treated as if those parts originated in the UK; the UK has offered a phased deal for fishing and the Government has warned of up to 7000 vehicle/2 day delays as a "reasonable worst case" lasting for months from 1 January.

Any or all of this could change in the next four weeks.


30 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM (#4073799)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on.

The only good thing about COVID-19 is that it stops us having to talk about Brexit. If only we could find something, other than Brexit, to stop us having to talk about COVID-19.

DC


30 Sep 20 - 06:58 PM (#4073800)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Not good, though, Doug. Coronavirus has indeed sidelined brexit. Which is exactly how this crappy government hopes to bury bad news...


30 Sep 20 - 06:59 PM (#4073801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Doug - We could numb the anguish
by restricting ourselves to only discussing American politics...???????


30 Sep 20 - 07:55 PM (#4073804)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

There'd be more intellectual clout in discussing the latest developments in what my grandson's Year One class were getting up to. Yesterday he won the class prize for being the best tidier-upperer. Last week he was one of only five in his class to reach rainbow status. Dammit, I bathe shamelessly in reflected glory, in the knowledge that he's achieved far more worthwhile things than either yank candidate could achieve in a hundred years...


30 Sep 20 - 08:10 PM (#4073808)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Today my mrs got the most disruptive 5 year old in her class
to go an entire day without telling any teaching staff
to f@ck off...

That's the kind of extreme woke thing those traitorous marxist feminist teachers
are doing to brainwash white working class boys
into turning into transgenders...!!!

[yes.. maybe.. I've been researching too many far right youtube channels again...???]


30 Sep 20 - 08:15 PM (#4073810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Brilliant, pfr. I salute ye (and the missus) Sir!


01 Oct 20 - 11:33 AM (#4073879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have never heard of lawrence fox,i have heard of other actors, but
i am not interested in their views on anything other than acting.
for example john cleese a well known actor probably has different views to lawrence fox, so what, why should i listen to fox rather than cleese, just because an accpuntant from croydon tells me too.
who exactly do you think you are, telling people we should listen to some actor called fox,rather than listening to john cleese or glenda jackson, or any other actor


01 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM (#4073921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is a matter of personal taste, but compared to Tennant, Sim, Scott and others, I don't rate Lawrence Fox much as an actor. Nor compared to some others in the very extensive Fox acting clan.

I would seek him out for potitical advice, either.


01 Oct 20 - 05:24 PM (#4073923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I much prefer Emilia


01 Oct 20 - 05:25 PM (#4073924)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Not my cup o’tea either, Mac. But hey, it takes all sorts I guess!


01 Oct 20 - 05:54 PM (#4073927)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The neo fascists must obviously now regard posh luvvie fox
as a more publicly acceptable mainstream recruitment poster boy
than football hooligan robinson ever could be...

Though they are still keeping bitter old shite comedian jim davidson
as a back up...


02 Oct 20 - 03:15 AM (#4073971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Davidson once slept on my mother-in-law's sofa.


02 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM (#4073974)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Shame she didn’t smother the bugger with a pillow.


03 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM (#4074112)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

On reflection it might have been Freddie Star. But I don't think he ate any hamsters.


05 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM (#4074373)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

From yesterday's "Observer". I have not linked the piece as it only says the same thing in different ways but I found this section hilarious.

In the latest ConservativeHome survey of what activists think of the cabinet, the prime minister comes in 24th out of 25. The education secretary is the only cabinet member with a worse approval rating. That’s the verdict of Tory members on their own prime minister: “not quite as useless as Gavin Williamson”.

:D


08 Oct 20 - 03:16 AM (#4074711)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The usual witty and insightful review, by John Crace in the Guardian, of the Prime Minister’s woeful performance presenting his speech to the virtual Tory Party Conference.

Let’s hope Crace is right, that the former Labour voters who allowed themselves to be conned into voting Tory at the 2019 election have indeed ‘grown up’ and realised what a bunch of twonks they elected, and that they give Johnson a good kick up his fat, bone-idle, clueless arse next time (assuming he lasts that long, and his own party haven’t given him the push before then).


10 Oct 20 - 11:14 AM (#4074999)
Subject: BS: Birthday Honours
From: Bonzo3legs

Wonderful honours list which includes 414 names of NHS and social care staff, fundraisers, shopworkers and drivers, etc. - the unsung heroes of the pandemic.


10 Oct 20 - 12:17 PM (#4075009)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It would be even more wonderful if they paid them properly. Gongs don’t pay the bills.


12 Oct 20 - 04:05 AM (#4075201)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

With 1.4 million employed by the NHS and 1.6 million in social care, 414 baubles means that 99.99% were ignored.

DC


12 Oct 20 - 05:36 AM (#4075208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Spot on Doug.


12 Oct 20 - 05:42 AM (#4075209)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Today's main Brexit event is the Agriculture Bill returning to Parliament.

The story so far:

In December 2019, all Conservative ministers stood on a manifesto that included maintain the UK food standards (p 57 for those interested.)

When the bill first came to the House, it included nothing to protect the standards. Amendments to introduce those commitments were proposed, but voted against.

The bill passed to the Lords, who wrote such protective measures into the bill.

It has now returned to the House of Commons to be voted on this afternoon. The Government has declared one of the amendments inapplicable of a technicality and it was reported in either the Times or the Telegraph (I forget which), that Dominic Cummings "instructed ministers" not to accept the amendments.

The last poll of the public suggested 94% want the standards preserved. I know polls are very unreliable, but it is fair to conclude, I think, that the majority want the standards maintained. The RSPCA do. The NFU do. The environmental groups do. Consumer bodies like "Which?" do. Some supermarkets have said they will not stock chlorinated chicken.

But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.


12 Oct 20 - 07:10 AM (#4075221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.”


Those of us with more than half a brain knew exactly what the BrexShit-Bunch’s ‘Take Back Control’ meant.


12 Oct 20 - 10:08 AM (#4075241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what a mess


12 Oct 20 - 12:22 PM (#4075260)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Of as someone cleverly said the other day, an Eton mess is supposed to be meringue, cream and strawberries. Not what the government do :-D


12 Oct 20 - 02:04 PM (#4075275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Seems that the areas most likely to vote Tory next time have been left in the lowermost tier.


12 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM (#4075278)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Gawrsh , who’da thunk it?


12 Oct 20 - 02:43 PM (#4075280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I thought the lowermost tier was for those areas showing the lowest rate of virus infection. The areas where, whether by luck or good judgement, people have avoided spreading the virus.


12 Oct 20 - 03:22 PM (#4075283)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Something like that, Nigel. But if it was exactly like there there would be a little table somewhere saying when the cases per thousand was such and such then you would be at level N. Since there isn't - so far - then there is some margin of judgement, and that could be partly political.


12 Oct 20 - 03:23 PM (#4075284)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The virus is far more prevalent in large conurbations and deprived areas, Nigel. 'Tis true that some constituencies in those areas were stupid enough (or at least contained a lot of stupid enough people) to return a Tory. Once their pubs have been shut (for beer at least) for a few months, their jobs have disappeared and a few more thousand of them have died, the time may well become ripe for the feckless Johnson to look to his laurels...

Unless, of course, the almost equally feckless "Dishy Rishi" has taken over...


13 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4075381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

"meringue, cream and strawberries" ? It’s more likely to be a choice between jam roly poly and custard and apple pie and custard .That’s from what I saw when doing some plumbing in a Whitehall club a long time ago ........... Maybe they were from Harrow though.


13 Oct 20 - 10:12 AM (#4075384)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

sorry for the thread creep, carry on.


13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM (#4075436)
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless her!


13 Oct 20 - 08:06 PM (#4075442)
Subject: RE: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Steve Shaw

My father-in-law, a mighty Somerset man and a far better person than Thatcher, would also have been 95 today. He died ten years ago. I loved him to bits. He would probably have been ashamed had he known about the coincidence.

Funny how it goes. Mrs Steve's lifelong best friend has her birthday today (we had her round for tea and a chocolate brownie this afternoon, and she's coming round for my lamb stew on Saturday night), as does my first fiancée (she had a lucky escape), as does one of my best mates from school in the sixties. Nothing on the 12th, 14th or any other day anywhere near. Weird!


16 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM (#4075681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Yet again, it seems Boris Johnson is saying yes, we really really will walk away from the trade deal talks, we mean it and this time are so so serious.

But not actually quite doing it.

Looks like it will be no deal at the end of October on the EU timetable at this rate. Unless the PM actually concedes enough to satisfy the EU, with probably them giving him a fig leaf to exalt over.


16 Oct 20 - 03:33 PM (#4075688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Others might say that the EU, having failed to make the UK cave in to their demands, is extending their previous 'definite deadline'.


16 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM (#4075694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

People can say that if they like. But on 2nd September Barnier said the end of October is the deadline, and on the 7th Johnson said it was the 14th.

Whether Barnier said it earlier I haven't checked, but that 2nd September speech is available online.


16 Oct 20 - 04:43 PM (#4075695)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

15th. Sorry, the inevitable typo.


16 Oct 20 - 05:10 PM (#4075698)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all. quote
Brexit is a world wide issue too, it aff4cts the usa china ne zealand australia furthermore the whole world
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless hr quote.
a matter of opinion, not a fact, other than it was her birthday


17 Oct 20 - 04:43 AM (#4075728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

EU are not making demands, the British lowlife are. All EU are doing is stating what the conditions are for a trade deal outside of the single market. If UK wants to trade with EU the accept EU conditions.

The trouble with people who support leave is that they are so arrogant that they would try to join a folk club and demand the right to change the club rules to their own benefit.

Losing our rights as EU citizens is another matter, and the EU withdrawing our freedom of Movement and benefits of the single market as individuals' is nothing but vindictiveness.


17 Oct 20 - 05:26 AM (#4075730)
Subject: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman

new allegations about Boris and pole vaulter from Peckham.


17 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM (#4075731)
Subject: RE: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman

The Sunday Times reports she went for the job at Tech City in 2012, weeks after Mr Johnson started bidding for City Hall to take control of the same quango.

The allegations adds to mounting questions Mr Johnson faces over his links with the businesswoman - due to appear on Good Morning Britain tomorrow.

He has already been accused of granting public funding to Ms Arcuri, whose flat he's said to have visited "several times".

She reportedly received £10,000 in business cash from an organisation Mr Johnson was responsible for as London Mayor in 2013.

And Ms Arcuri, who was in her 20s at the time, was also allegedly given special treatment to attend jet-set trade missions led by the future PM, according to a Sunday Times investigation.

Mr Johnson has now been referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC), and must provide details of their relationship by Tuesday to a summons from the London Assembly.

If he fails to do so he could face a penalty.


17 Oct 20 - 05:54 AM (#4075736)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Eck, if you’re quoting, why not italicise the piece you’re quoting and put it in inverted commas? Then your posts might make a bit more sense.


17 Oct 20 - 06:20 AM (#4075738)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That was for The Sandman...


17 Oct 20 - 06:23 AM (#4075739)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Conversely Backwoodsman it might be his own opinion and he is just echoing Bonzo!


17 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM (#4075740)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Never thought of that, Raggy! Hmmmmm..... ;-)


17 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM (#4075743)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Boris want to change the conditions of trading with the EU. It's the EU's fault that talks have stalled.

Boris wants to put Greater Manchester in tier 3. Andy Burnham says that to do that they need more funding. It's Andy Burnham's fault if the contagion increases.

Anyone seeing a pattern here? Not only is Johnson a pathological liar but he also doesn't understand that negotiations are a two way thing. I suppose he was brought up to believe that if you shout, stamp your feet, throw the toys out of the pram and blame everyone but yourself, you get your own way.

I pity his children. However many there are.


17 Oct 20 - 12:53 PM (#4075770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Any discussion of UK future trading with EU has no correlation with what's happening within the UK. Any attempt to compare the two is a non sequitur.
Similarly, any discussion about Boris Johnson's children (legitimate or otherwise) has F*** A** (very little) to do with the political discussion.


18 Oct 20 - 03:08 AM (#4075811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest. Boris proves himself to be none of these things every time he opens his mouth. Not being able to say how many children he has sired is a prime example. Blaming the other party when negotiations go wrong is another and, in this case, worse still because it affects the lives of millions.


18 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM (#4075814)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave. What we certainly did expect was that they should be held to account when they were not. The whole rationale for Freedom of Information Acts wherever they exist is to expose the occasions politicians ae not, and to hold them to account when that happens. Ditto the various ways powers are separated.

What we have discovered over the the past few years - and the 2016 referendum is as good a starting point as any - is how weak the UK system is on holding politicians to account. When individuals and governments can be found to be in contempt of Parliament and they basically shrug and say 'So what?' the accountability is failing. T When the question of whether supreme court judges in the UK should be subject to political veto is seriously considered, the separation of powers is failing. When Parliament itself votes to have no say in ministers decisions on trade (for example), the representation of the people is failing.

Personally, I regard these things as ultimately more significant than the economic impact of Brexit.


18 Oct 20 - 04:20 AM (#4075815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What we are seeing now is precisely what the people of Germany saw in the 1930s. A government spreading its own propaganda, making itself unaccountable, demonising minorities - ‘the other’ - and actively creating divisions, blaming others for their own actions and inactions, practicing the Goebbels philosophy of repeating lies so frequently that no matter how big are the lies, in the people’s minds they become truth.

And we tell ourselves it could never happen here, yet we have evidence of the success of the government’s brainwashing tactics on this forum and, indeed, in this thread. Well worth remembering that, in 1930s Germany, it didn’t begin with gas-chambers, it began with ruthless politicians determined to pursue their agenda whatever the cost.


18 Oct 20 - 05:17 AM (#4075820)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

We are all aware of the risks bring Hitler into threads like this, but I don't think that oversteps the mark, Backwoodsman. It is genuinely salient to look at what was happening around the time of the Enabling Act.

I have recently been reading a book called "They thought they were free: The Germans 1933-45", first published in 1955. The author is essentially a journalist, not a historian. So far I have only read the first part, which is events as seen through they eyes of ten relatively ordinary people: a local mayor, a policeman, a baker, a teenage schoolchild and so on. I am afraid I do see parallels, though fortunately I also see very substantial differences.


18 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM (#4075821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I deliberately didn’t mention Hitler, DMcG, for obvious reasons. However, the rise of the Far Right in the UK, as well as the US, is reminiscent of 1930s Germany, and some of the tactics and practices being employed are undoubtedly similar.


18 Oct 20 - 05:33 AM (#4075822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Quite so, Backwoodsman, quite so.


18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM (#4075824)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

and of course ALL labour polititians are open, ethical and honest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM (#4075825)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

politicians that is!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:29 AM (#4075826)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Politician - Sons of Cream!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:39 AM (#4075827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Can you not read Bonzo.

Dave the Gnome posted "Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest"

DMcG posted "I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave."

No mention there of Liberal, Labour, DUP, Scottish Nationalist, Plaid Cymru, Greens or Conservative. **

However we do have a Conservative leader who seems to be a stranger to the truth.









Apologys to those political parties I may have missed.


18 Oct 20 - 11:32 AM (#4075842)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Whataboutism just doesn't wash, Bonzo. For the first time we have a prime minister who seems to see nothing wrong with lying, cheating and plain incompetence. What is more he seems to believe he can get away with it and will continue to do so as long as the very electorate that he is leading up the garden path continue to excuse him. I hope all the turkeys that voted for Christmas are happy with the result.


18 Oct 20 - 12:16 PM (#4075844)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Tough.


18 Oct 20 - 12:23 PM (#4075845)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Don’t. Feed. The. Troll.


18 Oct 20 - 12:42 PM (#4075847)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Always the same when anyone questions the labour shambles, and it is a shambles. Even starmer has lost it now. One consolation perhaps is that abbott is out of the picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


18 Oct 20 - 01:42 PM (#4075855)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

But how many Labour MPs are the current prime minister?


18 Oct 20 - 02:03 PM (#4075858)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

doggerel from the dogs bollocks


18 Oct 20 - 04:30 PM (#4075869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo. The Tories have an 80 seat majority. The lying blonde bufoon is prime minister. Labour are powerless to do anything but point out the idiocy. The mess we are in is no one's fault but the Conservative governments. Yet you, Boris, the Conservative party and the Tory apologists will take no responsibility for anything. Preferring instead to blame a Labour party who's hands are tied. I know you don't care but I take great pleasure in seeing you trying to lay the blame elsewhere while everyone else can see where it really lies. Keep it up :-)


18 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM (#4075871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Dave, he is dogmatic, his dogma is blame everything on the party in opposition


18 Oct 20 - 04:50 PM (#4075872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzodogmatic? :-)


18 Oct 20 - 06:00 PM (#4075886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Bonzodogdoodah band were far more amusing. **












My apology for the poetic licence with the name !!


19 Oct 20 - 03:52 AM (#4075923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

These comments by Lord Kerr, and the earlier ones by Lord Neuberger fit into this discussion quite well, as the address the relationship between the judiciary and Parliament.


19 Oct 20 - 04:28 AM (#4075928)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Good articles, Mac. No matter which side of the political divide anyone is on, the absolute necessity for a judiciary, independent of the political parties, with the power to call politicians to account, must be perfectly obvious.


19 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM (#4075929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

As if by magic...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-government-has-moved-to-shift-blame-to-businesses/19/10/

So businesses are to blame for the government's failure to fulfil its promises

We are to blame for their abysmal record with the virus

Labour antisemitism anyone?


19 Oct 20 - 06:58 AM (#4075937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Businesses should not be making any changes at all to the way they operate, and if anyone takes issue, then all they have to say is 'take it up with Johnson'.


19 Oct 20 - 07:24 AM (#4075938)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Stolen from a Facebook friend. Bit long but well worth it

Post this
You really couldn’t make it up! ( sorry, did I say that last time...)
The Week in Tory is back! Fasten your seatbelts...
1. Boris Johnson announced a new 3 Tier lockdown system, with the lowest Tier being
“medium”, like at McDonalds
2. As part of the announcement, the Chief Medical Officer reassuringly said the plan wouldn’t
work
3. The govt said “in all cases, we are following the science”
4. It was revealed the SAGE science committee told the govt to lockdown weeks ago, but that
bit of science wasn’t followed very far 5. SAGE went on to say the govt’s “world-beating” £12bn
Test and Trace system was having only “a marginal impact on transmission rates”
6. Dido Harding, head of Seemingly Everything, said Test and Trace would be “local by default”
and be “highly efficient”
7. She then handed £12bn to Serco, which is highly efficiently charging us £7360 per day for
consultants. To trace Covid infections. Which they aren’t doing
8. Serco’s CEO is the brother of an ex-Tory MP. His partner is a Tory donor. Serco’s ex-head of
PR is now a Tory Health Minister
9. If you feel all this is a bit corrupt, you can complain to the govt’s Anti-Corruption Champion,
John Penrose, who is married to Dido Harding
10. Meanwhile an investigation by the Good Law Project found PPE suppliers owned by Tory
donors or associates were paid 30% more per item than similar businesses globally. I'm talling
you: John Penrose. He’s your fella. He’ll get to the bottom of it, fo shizzle
11. And only 34 days since the announcement of Boris Johnson’s "brainchild", the £100bn
Operation Moonshot, it was quietly scrapped, along with (apparently) Boris Johnson’s brain and
around 28% of his children
12. A Tory MP said Boris Johnson’s “personal skillset this doesn't play to this. He's not a details,
manager type. He's a picture painter”. On the side of wine-boxes, mostly.
13. Another said “I think it's obvious this is a government happier picking fights than governing”
14. Another said Boris Johnson “prefers to get on with dog-walking” and “let’s Dominic do the
work”
15. Chastened by reports local authorities were given only 5 minutes notice of previous
lockdowns, this time the govt gave them ... 7 minutes notice of the meeting to discuss it
16. Except some MPs didn't even get that, and were only invited after the meeting had started
17. And the govt invited the MP for Sunderland, who had to inform them she was only of 3
Sunderland MPs. The govt was “surprised to be informed” of this
18. The dep Chief Medical Officer said the infection rate in the north “never dropped” meaning
the relaxation of lockdown was at the expense of lives oop north
19. Then the govt said they would “devolve more decision-making” and “give more financial aid
to local authorities”
20. But the aid is conditional on the "devolved" local authority doing what the govt wants, which
is quite a novel a definition of "devolved" 21. So, following criticism, the govt briefed the press
that it was going to consult more with regional govts
22. Literally 2 hours later, the govt briefed the press that Manchester was moving into Tier 3
restrictions. The Mayor of Manchester was not consulted (or even informed) about a decision he
must implement, and which affects the largest city-region outside London.
23. A Tory MP, anxious about the lockdown affecting businesses over the party season, asked
the PM “what can you tell us about Christmas”. Boris Johnson replied, “it’s a religious festival
that’s been celebrated 2020 years”, which I’m sure helps us all
24. Matt Hancock insisted we all follow the science and adhere to the 10pm pub curfew that
scientists say makes absolutely no improvement on infection rates
25. Then Matt Hancock broke that curfew, in a House of Commons bar
26. And then Matt Hancock said “The drinks are on me but Public Health England are in charge
of payment methodology so I will not be paying anything”
27. In August, Public Health England was scrapped by [checks notes ] Matt Hancock
28. But prior to that, Tories imposed budget cuts of 5% to 10% on Public Health England for
each of the previous 7 years
29. Unsurprisingly, it was reported that hospitals in the north of England would run out of beds
within 7 days
30. The govt said "Hospital Trusts should consider cancelling all non-urgent treatments"
31. The govt then refused to drop fines it imposes on Hospital Trusts which cancel non-urgent
treatments
32. So Matt Hancock announced the reopening of Nightingale Hospitals, which were closed last
time because nobody could send patients to them, due to them not being staffed
33. They still aren’t staffed: Matt Hancock's' "urgent boost to nursing training" doesn’t start until
2021
34. Fortunately, the govt began a campaign to get ballerinas to retrain, and then scrapped the
campaign 24 hours later
35. In June, Boris Johnson announced an "urgent" £1.57bn Arts Rescue Plan
36. A mere 127 days later, it "urgently" got around to paying out some of that money
37. Except by now the £1.57bn had become £257m, which is 16% of the plan they originally
announced
38. Meanwhile, in news that will surely leave you all stunned and astonished, a month after work
began on HS2 the budget for it has already risen a further £800m
39. Boris Johnson congratulated Marcus Rashford on the MBE he was awarded for his efforts to
overcome the cruel policies of Boris Johnson
40. The Law Society raised concerns about the “dangerous rhetoric” of Home Office Minister
and Mouth of Sauron, Priti Patel
41. The next day, a migration lawyer was victim of a knife attack, and senior lawyers said
“Responsibility and accountability for this attack lies squarely at the feet of Priti Patel”
42. The Home Office announced plans to catch migrants in a big net and OH MY GOD
43. And then Lord West reassuringly said, “we need to deal with migrants in a concentrated
place, a camp or whatever”. He didn’t mention whether Arbeit Macht Frei, but it’s still only
Thursday, and who can tell what the remainder of the week will bring? [Open 2nd bottle now ]
44. Speaking of dates: today is 15th Oct, the absolute, immoveable deadline for trade talks that
mighty, fearsome Boris Johnson laid down to the cowed and quivering EU
45. Talks continue tomorrow. Because obviously, duuur
46. This is the third absolute deadline imposed by the British that has been missed because the
British have temporarily inverted arse and elbow
47. This didn’t stop Cabinet Office minister Lord Agnew from berating haulage businesses for
not being ready for Brexit on 1 Jan
48. The Road Haulage Assoc pointed out we have only 1,668 of the 33,000 EU Haulage
Permits we need on 1 Jan
49. Software to control our borders won’t be ready until 4 months after 1 Jan


19 Oct 20 - 07:25 AM (#4075939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Conmtinued...

50. And the govt is “still in the planning stage” of the “Kent Passports” we need on 1 Jan
51. And construction of Kent's “world’s largest lorry park” is behind schedule, so probably not
ready on 1 Jan
52. Fortunately the govt is well-prepared, and plans to install 1000s of Portaloos in Kent, the
garden of England, to be used by lorry drivers trapped in 2-day queues
53. And our food standards will still be fine, as Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi tweeted “Our manifesto
was clear. We will not compromise our animal welfare and food standards”
54. He then voted to compromise our animal welfare and food standards, as did the rest of the
Tory Party
55. And then govt used an obscure rule to deny MPs a vote on whether to allow chlorinated
chicken
56. Meanwhile, 20 years after North Sea Cod became so overfished the WWF declared it
“economically extinct”, Tory MPs voted to reduce protections designed to let fish stocks recover
57. So, after Brexit, our current plan is to accept tariffs that will destroy our manufacturing
sector, and border delays that will destroy farming exports and imperil food supplies, and
destroy the farming sector ... all so we can go and catch a fish that doesn’t exist
58. But at least we’ve now "got back control", and therefore we can level up the playing field by
implementing the govt's landmark “digital tax” policy on giants such as Amazon
59. This week it was announced Amazon will be exempt from the digital tax
60. Speaking of tax exemptions, it was revealed Dominic Cummings has had a £30,000 council
tax bill “written off” because he built the house illegally, so it doesn’t count as a real house, or
summat. Sorry, my hurricane-force sarcasm briefly turned me more northern.
61. And on the subject of extreme dodgy dealing, let me direct your attention to Robert Jenrick,
who set up the £3.6bn “Towns Fund” for the 101 most deprived town, and then gave the
maximum grant of £25m to his own constituency, which is the 270th most deprived town
63. His explanation was that he, Jenrick, did not make the decision. It was made by a colleague,
Jake Berry.
64. Jake Berry also got money for his constituency. By a dazzling coincidence, that decision
was made by – you guessed it – Robert Jenrick
65. Finally: at a meeting led by Liam Fox, the TaxPayers Alliance (insanity-pushers to the Tory
Party) advocated cutting pensions immediately because half of old people “won't be around to
vote against you in the next election”, and the other half “will have forgotten by then”


19 Oct 20 - 10:32 AM (#4075964)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

What a long list of stuff happening. How does it shake out for individual members? What are each of you seeing in your immediate world that is impacted by COVID-19-laced negotiations?


19 Oct 20 - 10:34 AM (#4075965)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Mrrzy just posted a Boxer parody about Trump and I think we can do better. I'll make a start

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

:D tG


19 Oct 20 - 11:00 AM (#4075975)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

In answer to your question, Stilly, I am pretty lucky. Retired on a reasonable pension. No debts to speak of. No real wish for material wealth. Living in an area of low contagion. So not much effect on me as yet. However, as the economy is bound to plummet as a result of both the virus and Brexit the future is pretty bleak for many, including my family and younger friends.

The other thing is, whether it affects me or not, I do not appreciate being lied to by those who are supposed to be looking after us. I have always been cynical of politicians in any party. I think that anyone who seriously believes they can run people's lives should be debarred from public office on the grounds of megalomania. But the lot we currently have at the helm really do take the piss. I will point out their lies and broken pledges whenever I come across them.


19 Oct 20 - 11:20 AM (#4075978)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Like Dave, I am retired on a reasonable pension and not directly affected by much of this. But plenty around me are. I have a friend who owns a small haulage company and she is in near despair over the situation. Almost every question she has is still unanswered, and the licencing aspect alone has major impact. Eldest son works for an American legal firm in their London office and there is much uncertainty whether they will move everyone to their Brussels office, and if so, when. Second son works for an international fashion goods company (high end shoes, handbags etc) on the web sales side. So far they are in profit this year, having shut all the high street shops but the future is naturally uncertain. Since the growth area is online sales, though, he is probably ok.

Daughter works in recruitment, which is more affected by covid-19 than Brexit, as far as we can separate them.


19 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM (#4076016)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I live on 485 euros a month, so if anyone wants to buy anything from my website , i will be pleased


22 Oct 20 - 09:43 AM (#4076439)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Europe has been good for ireland in a liberalising approach, it has taken a country highly influenced by reactionary religious elements and gradually turned it in to a much more liberal minded and forward looking country


22 Oct 20 - 11:15 AM (#4076449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Ireland isn’t a part of the UK.


22 Oct 20 - 03:54 PM (#4076470)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

:-)

;-)

:-))


22 Oct 20 - 04:45 PM (#4076474)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Who's the guy with the double chin?


23 Oct 20 - 02:50 AM (#4076508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Is it a double chin or a slit throat? :-)


23 Oct 20 - 03:53 AM (#4076511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

northern ireland is part of the uk , and because of brexit there is a big border problem looming, it is affected by brexit so my comment is relevant


23 Oct 20 - 04:06 AM (#4076512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I have lived in ireland for 30 years so i am aware republic of ire is not part of uk. talk about teaching grand mother to suck eggs.


23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM (#4076516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Disgusting. But, sadly, what we have come to expect

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/government-covid-contracts-britain-nhs-corporate-executives-test-and-trace


23 Oct 20 - 09:14 AM (#4076532)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

You didn’t mention Norther Ireland, Dick, you said ‘Ireland’, which is the universally understood term for the Republic of Ireland. The Republic is not part of the UK, neither is NI a part of the Republic.

The title of this thread is ‘Brexit & Other UK political topics. Please stick to the thread topic, and don’t give the mods another excuse to close our one and only UK politics thread.


29 Oct 20 - 08:49 AM (#4077241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The EHRC's key findings as reported in the Guardian

The Labour party could have tackled antisemitism more effectively “if the leadership had chosen to do so”, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) concluded as part of its 130-page investigations

Not that antisemitism is rife in the party, just that they could have handled it better. I'll be honest and admit that I have not read the report and am not likely to do so as I am not one for politikspeak. Any of the better versed or equipped care to comment?


29 Oct 20 - 09:37 AM (#4077247)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings, and has had the whip suspended for doing so.


29 Oct 20 - 09:52 AM (#4077248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I saw he had been suspended but not for denying the findings. Do you have a source for that, Nigel?


29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4077250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed...the list goes on and on, need I say more?


29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4077251)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

BBC news (Radio)


29 Oct 20 - 10:01 AM (#4077252)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

...the list goes on and on, need I say more?
Hopefully not.


29 Oct 20 - 10:14 AM (#4077254)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The truth must be very painful, Nigel. But your denial won’t make it go away.


29 Oct 20 - 11:05 AM (#4077266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I didn't deny it, however:
Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"
" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.
"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?


29 Oct 20 - 11:25 AM (#4077270)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government"

can you even begin to imagine the winkie wankie wokie abortion which a Corbyn (now sacked from the labour party) government would have been guilty of?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


29 Oct 20 - 11:56 AM (#4077272)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo, how many times must we tell you this. The current Tory government has an 80 seat majority. The cock ups they are guilty of are no one's fault but their own. What any other party of leader may or may not have done is completely irrelevant.

Nigel. Yes, I have seen and read the BBC news. I cannot find where it says Corbyn had been suspended for denying any findings.

Nothing I have get seen from reports of the EHRC findings seems to indicate the the Labour party has a worse antisemitism problem than anyone else. It does say that their reaction and procedures for handling antisemitism left a lot to be desired. Am I missing something?


29 Oct 20 - 12:00 PM (#4077273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel again

Specifics? or just random claims?

I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM


29 Oct 20 - 12:01 PM (#4077274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

List=post


29 Oct 20 - 12:19 PM (#4077279)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The grip on Starmer's short 'n' curlies is so over tightened now,
clumps are being pulled out at the roots..

Might as well just relinquish leadership of the party to margaret hodge and be done with it...


29 Oct 20 - 12:20 PM (#4077280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel again
Specifics? or just random claims?
I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM


A link to a Guardian opinion piece?


29 Oct 20 - 12:21 PM (#4077281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Or did you mean the two post list taken from someone else's Facebook rant (a few days earlier)?


29 Oct 20 - 12:36 PM (#4077286)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

No, Nigel, I said my post of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM so which do you think I was referring to? It is a link and there is some opinion in it but if you would care to dispute any of the facts quoted by the author to support his opinion, please feel free.


29 Oct 20 - 12:37 PM (#4077287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, 200!


29 Oct 20 - 12:46 PM (#4077291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The ECHR report into Labour

I have not read it yet, but will do as soon as possible.

As far as I am aware at the moment, Corbyn was not directly named in the report, but was suspended because in his remarks after the report was published he acknowledged anti-Semitism but said it was overstated. This fell foul of Starmer's remarks that those who “deny there is a problem are part of the problem … Those who pretend it is exaggerated or factional are part of the problem.”


29 Oct 20 - 12:58 PM (#4077294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

That is the way I have seen it too DMcG.


29 Oct 20 - 01:06 PM (#4077296)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So how long before starmer starts suspending Jewish labour members,
who disagree with his unreasonable authoritarian definitions
of 'unacceptable anti-semitic behaviour'...??????


29 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM (#4077318)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Sounds like Starmer is winding up the lefties - I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


29 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM (#4077326)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nothing sensible to add Bonzo?

Maybe you're just trying to fill the void left by the previous trolls. Be careful though and remember what happened to them.


29 Oct 20 - 04:34 PM (#4077331)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

” the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"

1) As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Tories have an 80-seat majority, so nothing Labour may have suggested has any relevance.

2) Neither you, nor I, have any information on the detail of discussions which took place between the Tory and Labour leadership regarding the handling of the COVID crisis, so your assertion that Labour offered no alternatives is mere supposition.

" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.”

There’s a great deal of evidence that these things are already, or are destined to be, part of the negotiations between the US and the UK. It’s been widely reported in the press and media, and commented on by members of the government. Easy to find unless, of course, one chooses to pretend it doesn’t exist.

"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?

Once again, numerous examples widely reported in the press and the media - easy to find unless, of course, one chooses not to see it.


30 Oct 20 - 03:26 AM (#4077385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I still haven't found where the BBC, or any other news agency, have reported that "Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings" but I did find the following while I was looking

It (the EHRC) found Labour responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act:

Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints

Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints

Harassment, including the use of anti-Semitic tropes and suggesting that complaints of anti-Semitism were fake or smears


So, to me, that suggests that the "Day of Shame" refers to how complaints were handled and harassment of those complaining rather than any institutional racism. Once the report has been fully digested I would be interested to see if it suggests that antisemitism in the Labour party is worse than in any other large organisation.


30 Oct 20 - 04:22 AM (#4077393)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Reading the report is on my to-do list for today, so I won't talk about it directly yet.

Politically, I am sure Boris Johnson and co are heaving a sigh of relief that Covid and Brexit have been driven out of the media. They will be aware how long the papers kept Labour and anti-Semitism in play last time and I am sure they hope they can do so again.

I don't think that will happen. For one thing, the US election will drive Labour off the media in a day or two at most. Then people care more about lockdowns and other things that affect them directly than Labour's troubles.   I am sure come the next PMQ or two Johnson will try to drag this into his answers at every opportunity, but I don't think it has the 'legs' it had before.   A huge lorry queue at Dover, if it happens, is simply more newsworthy.


30 Oct 20 - 04:39 AM (#4077395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks, DMcG. I look forward to your analysis.

Interesting quote from Caroline Waters, Interim Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission

Politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. There have been recent examples of behaviour from politicians of various parties that fall well below the standards we would expect. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. Our recommendations provide a foundation for leaders to make sure that they adhere to equality law and demonstrate their commitment to diversity and inclusion through their words and actions

Can we look forward to an enquiry into the "behaviour from politicians of various parties"?

I doubt it somehow.


30 Oct 20 - 05:34 AM (#4077401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I have made a start on the document, but highly recommend everyone interested to read the forward and the executive summary. It is very clearly written and in plain English, and will not take very long. A few highlights:

But, more than that, politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. What politicians say and do matters. Their words and actions send a message about what is acceptable and what is not.
In recent times, there have been examples of behaviour that falls well below the standards we would expect, from politicians of various parties. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. The recommendations in this report provide a foundation to assist all politicians and political leaders in adhering to equality law, while still protecting freedom of expression and engaging in the robust and wide-ranging debate that is a core part of living in a democratic society

.. so yes, this is focused on Labour, but no one should interpret the issue as just about Labour. All parties have, at times, fallen short.


The issue of antisemitism within the Labour Party has been the subject of much scrutiny, most formally with three investigations in 2016, conducted by Baroness Chakrabarti, Baroness Royall and the Home Affairs Select Committee (HASC). Since then, the Party has failed to implement the recommendations made in these reports fully, or to take effective measures to stop antisemitic conduct from taking place. It is regrettable that many of the concerns we raise here were first raised in these reports over four years ago

.. some in the past have regarded Baroness Chakrabarti's report as a whitewash. That is not the ECHR view. But they do say its recommendations have not been implemented adequately.

This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw: • A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders. • In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

Although only a few cases are addressed in this report, there is much more. While some of these are definitely antisemtic, because the people concerned are not employed by Labour, Labour has no legal responsibility for them. That does not make the actions excusable: it is simply the Labour Party is not legally responsible.


30 Oct 20 - 05:52 AM (#4077405)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, I got that far DMcG. It is also interesting to note that the commission does not address any actual complaints of antisemitism or uphold them. I would have thought that was its job. I do understand that it also looks at procedures for dealing with equality issues and that the Labour party is guilty of not dealing with the complaints properly. It is interesting to note that hours after the report's publication the CAA have issued a 70-odd page list of complaints, dating back many years, against members of the Labour party. All, it seems, from the left wing. I shall not speculate as to the motives behind this or the timing of it but let people draw their own conclusions.


30 Oct 20 - 06:19 AM (#4077412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Who would you look to for legal advice?
1. A barrister who advanced far enough to become the Director of Public Prosecutions.
2. A bunch of disorganised hippies who couldn't win an election against a Sesame Street character who hid in a fridge.


30 Oct 20 - 06:27 AM (#4077413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And that is relevant to the discussion because..?


30 Oct 20 - 06:57 AM (#4077418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Very relevant - will hippy abbott be next!!!


30 Oct 20 - 07:28 AM (#4077425)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

When can we expect the results of the enquiry into this Unholy alliance?

I'll not hold my breath.


30 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM (#4077433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

OK, I have eventually got round to finishing the document - it did have to fit in with other things I had to do, you know!

One of the things that I got out of it which doesn't seem to be coming across as much in the media it is rather less about what the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour party is, as the lack of a clear mechanism to decide and then deal with it. The media is very much about how much anti-Semitism there is or is not in the Labour party, the rows between Starmer and Corbyn, Hodge, Abbott and others. On my reading, that is not really what the report is about at all.   It is much more what are the procedures in place to identify anti-Semitism in the first place (including how clear is the definition, and why, for example, no definition is in the Labour Rule book so all members can know it.) Once a possible anti-Semitic case is identified, how well-defined is the process to handle it, and whether this process is truly independent, or is it subject to political interference.

So for example, they point out the training given to people to identify anti-Semitism is 'academic, not practical.' I presume that means there insufficient case studies where the real world complexities can be seen.   Another example that worries the authors are comments from the Leaders office whether they think an act serious enough to investigate which may override the formal process (and there are examples where it expressed a view both against and in favour of proceeding.) Other Leader's Office comments referred to the timing of the investigations.

In the political world, the temptation to interfere in that way will inevitably be huge. The report is quite clear it is always unacceptable - the procedures must be followed rigorously and independently. It is interesting to notice yesterday Starmer has clearly taken this on board. When the press pressured him to say Corbyn must be suspected, he followed the report to not express a view. Later, when Corbyn had been suspended he stressed that it was the formal processes that suspended Corbyn and he supported both their right to make the decision and the decision itself. Their remains some doubt about the exact rules under which Corbyn was suspended, but it is not Starmer's responsibility to say.
Yet another thing they were concerned about was the appointment of Thomas Gardiner from the Labour leader's office into the body responsible for initial investigations. The at the very least ran the risk of political interference and in their words "undermined confidence in the complaint handling process and, in particular, its independence."


In my opinion, it is a well written report and the recommendations it makes are both sensible and can be implemented in practice in a comparatively short time.   Labour has a legal responsibility to state its plans for addressing the points within a few weeks, and I have little doubt that it will confirm its intentions to fully adopt them.

I also have little doubt the Tories will keep poking at this particular hornets nest, as will some of Corbyn's backers.


30 Oct 20 - 12:47 PM (#4077466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks for a good synopsis DMcG. It does seem to confirm the conclusions I drew from the "front page". Labour did have problems with handling antisemitism complaints but as for antisemitism itself it seems that the commission have either not investigated that or not found anything to worry them.


30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM (#4077472)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I would not go quite that far, Dave. They did identify a few cases and said this was "the tip of the iceberg" - but most of the other 18(?) cases they looked at in detail were by people that the Labour Party did not have legal responsibility for, or it was unclear what capacity these people were speaking in. Having said that, they also stressed other parties had similar issues.

I put the question mark after the 18 because that figure was mentioned but there are other complaints and I would need to double check the status of these 18.

The cases that they referenced, though, were often to illustrate where the process had fallen short.


30 Oct 20 - 02:00 PM (#4077478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I find that an official body suggesting it is the tip of the iceberg without going into detail quite alarming. It sounds like a Daily Heil headline.


30 Oct 20 - 02:19 PM (#4077483)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The exact quote is here:
This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw:
• A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders.
• In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

In light of our position as a regulator, we only made findings of unlawful conduct in cases that were sufficiently clear-cut, in Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights Act 1998 terms. We explain this in Chapter 3


So they saw cases, but restricted themselves to ones that were 'clear cut' and for which the party was legally responsible.


30 Oct 20 - 02:36 PM (#4077486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The problem is that they did concern themselves with the other cases as they went ahead and reported them. They are either significant, in which case they need to detail them, or they are not significant, in which case don't report them.


30 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM (#4077516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Reports are coming in of a strict national lockdown to be announced on Monday, effective from Wednesday.

If so, I think Labour and the ECHR is going to disappear from the front pages even faster than I predicted, and Johnson would be well advised to leave it out of PMQs unless he really wants to look detached from people's concerns.


31 Oct 20 - 03:48 AM (#4077553)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think you are right DMcG. "Look! Labour antisemitism!" was already wearing thin as a distraction. By the side of Boris's mis-management of the virus it just sounds stupid. Of course some people will still be fooled . As witnessed here.


31 Oct 20 - 05:08 AM (#4077558)
Subject: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: The Sandman

I have resigned membership from the labour party.
My Stepmother was jewish , her parents escaped from nazi germany in 1936. I concur With CORBYN about exagerration


31 Oct 20 - 05:16 AM (#4077559)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4

Just wondering if you are playing into the hands of the right wing here, and is getting left leaning members to resign is all part of the scheme .

It's obviously a very personal decision but I've decided to stay in the party and watch what happens.

My opinion of Starmer btw is that he is just Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.


31 Oct 20 - 06:12 AM (#4077563)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Steve Shaw

Absolutely with you there, Acorn.


31 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM (#4077566)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Mr Red

I predicted Corbyn would be a latter-day Michael Foot. And apart from his concentration on Arab/Muslim issues at the expense of Jewish ones it was an apt analogue.

Sacking him is putting out a message. Unfortunately, the message is not in Starmer's hands. It is in the minds of Corbynites. Was it ever thus?

Frank Field, at least, showed contrition over his championing of an underdog. Sometimes, they are underdogs for a reason. History has spoken. Twice, resoundingly. And do we listen?

FWIW Frank Field would have made a better figurehead for the party. But he maybe realised his skills lay elsewhere.
On the basis of one TV clip I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good head honcho, purely from his screen presence, but recent events have only confirmed my opinion. Cursory as it is. Maybe he is eyeing the top of the greasy pole.
And they picked the wrong Milliband IMNSHO.


31 Oct 20 - 06:35 AM (#4077568)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Bonzo3legs

I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!


31 Oct 20 - 06:44 AM (#4077571)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Long Firm Freddie

The report (all 130 pages) is online here:

Report

LFF


31 Oct 20 - 06:56 AM (#4077574)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

It gives me no pleasure to say it, but the LP are fast becoming the ‘Jeremy Kyle Party’ - behaving exactly like the ‘Waynes and Waynettas’ who go on that god-forsaken waste of broadcasting-time to have their spitting, swearing, handbags-at-twenty-paces fights in full view of anyone and everyone who cares to tune in. Just one more factor in ensuring their own un-electability.

When will they take a leaf from the Tories’ book, and understand the importance of The Golden Rule - ‘Have your fights in private, but present a united front to the public’? I have no problem with internal differences in the party being argued and debated, but there’s a time and place for it, and in public in the press and on prime time TV aren’t it.

Very, very sad but absolutely the truth.


31 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM (#4077576)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Dave the Gnome

UK politics, surely.


31 Oct 20 - 07:34 AM (#4077577)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4

I would agree with the above and unfortunately "Left Unity" seems to be an oxymoron.


31 Oct 20 - 07:40 AM (#4077579)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

”UK politics, surely.”

I’d agree with that, Dave. I was wondering why someone opened a separate thread - perhaps a kind Mod might combine it with the main U.K. Politics thread?


31 Oct 20 - 07:41 AM (#4077580)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

Similarly the ‘Britain and its fish’ thread (opened by the same person as this one)?


31 Oct 20 - 02:01 PM (#4077628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Of course to the retired and not working, lockdown will make little difference, but to the retired and still working like myself of course, it will make some difference.


31 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM (#4077630)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.

To those who believed December was the end of the Labour party. How do you rate your lots chances after this?


31 Oct 20 - 03:50 PM (#4077639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, odds on the Tories will survive because, as I pointed out above, they stick together in public even when they’re in the shit and squabbling like a troop of monkeys in private.

Labour, however, kick each other’s bollocks very publicly. If they split, and I reckon that’s a very strong possibility, we’re bolloxed - Tory governments for ever.


31 Oct 20 - 04:36 PM (#4077647)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.
In case you haven't seen the news yet, the "furlough" scheme has been extended.
And, once again, the government is not causing deaths. That is the virus. The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths in order to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed.


31 Oct 20 - 05:45 PM (#4077653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths 
I am not sure I would agree there, Nigel, unless you are invoking the truism that we will all die eventually. Every death delayed is potentially a life saved when we eventually get a vaccine. So I would argue that not overwhelming the NHS is not an ambitious enough target. You should be aiming to have the level low enough that most non-covid NHS treatments can continue and the number who die is as low as possible while we await a vaccine.

And actually the 'Whack-a-mole' strategy could have done that if it was not simply used as an amusing quip. It is essentially what New Zealand has done: get the number of cases really low, then put as many resources as you can muster into a serious detect, test, trace and isolate effort. Testing is irrelevant with effective isolation so this concentration on numbers of tests without the rest is pointless.


31 Oct 20 - 05:51 PM (#4077654)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

... irrelevant without a....


31 Oct 20 - 06:02 PM (#4077655)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Nigel Parsons - they have got the hump because their beloved terrorist hugging Corbyn has been suspendered from the labour party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


31 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM (#4077657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Not me...


31 Oct 20 - 06:24 PM (#4077658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

‘Suspendered’? Oooohh Matron! :-)


31 Oct 20 - 06:43 PM (#4077662)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You really are desperate to get people to look the other way aren't you Bonzo. Trouble is it stopped working once Boris got what he wanted. No one is interested now that they know they backed the wrong horse. Boris is digging his own grave. As well as thousands of others, killing the economy and burying the last shreds of respect England had.


01 Nov 20 - 03:41 AM (#4077693)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

before systems can change people have to change, some of the posters should take a good look at themselves


01 Nov 20 - 03:59 AM (#4077698)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

No Dave the Gnome, I like fun!!!!!!!!!!


01 Nov 20 - 04:27 AM (#4077700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year.

But people keep telling me, “Boris is a great bloke and he’s doing a brilliant job!”.


01 Nov 20 - 05:05 AM (#4077705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Well Bonzo, if your idea of fun is posting inane comments on an obscure forum there isn't really much hope for you is there.


01 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM (#4077708)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo , i admire your love of dogs ,but that is the best that i can say


01 Nov 20 - 05:52 AM (#4077712)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

My oft-repeated belief is that “anyone who loves dogs can’t be all bad”, but I’m prepared to make an exception...


01 Nov 20 - 06:14 AM (#4077714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

now now do not be dogmatic.


01 Nov 20 - 09:15 AM (#4077726)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year."

I think it's that but much more as well. Who'd have thought a year ago that a government in a democracy could ORDER people to stay at home almost at the drop of a hat, or tell us that we can't have our families to stay over, or force us to wear masks? Once these edicts are enforced it makes it far easier for the government to do things like it again, under who-knows-what circumstances in the future. It isn't just a brexit diversion, it's a power-grab, and it's all the more frightening when you consider who it is who's grabbing the power.


01 Nov 20 - 12:30 PM (#4077754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’m sure you make a very valid point, Steve. Nothing this bunch of nasty, greedy, lying crooks do surprises me any more.


01 Nov 20 - 02:21 PM (#4077770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I am still inclined to suspect extremist ideological factions of the tories
are determined to exploit covid as an opportunist covert lethal weapon,
targeting the teaching profession...


05 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM (#4078388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

Especially in reference to the Corbyn/Foot analogy I have long been saying "History repeats itself, it has to because no one is listening.

And that applies on grander scales - if you don't like horror stories don't read this prediction History repeats itself. That’s bad news for the 2020s - the article is upbeat only in that we can solve the impending problem "if we choose".

But as with the LP - ya can't solve problems while ya shouting at each other over how to solve the problem. The LP's problem being - how to get to be in a position of power.


06 Nov 20 - 02:00 AM (#4078424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What the ‘Corbyn/Foot Analogy’ demonstrates, for those willing to look, listen, and learn, is that the UK does not have, and never has had, a natural inclination towards being or becoming a Socialist State. At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre, and no amount of stamping their feet, throwing themselves on the floor, and thcweaming and thcweaming until they’re sick by the Corbyn-supporters will change that.

Even Churchill acknowledged that “Jaw-jaw is better than war-war”. Why can’t the LP get their heads around that simple fact too?


06 Nov 20 - 02:26 AM (#4078426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

politicians are puppets their power is limited the real power is with multi national coporations, here is asong by ma reynolds
.Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.


11 Nov 20 - 04:33 AM (#4079136)
Subject: BS: lord Kilclooney
From: The Sandman

Earlier this week, Lord Kilclooney - a Member of the House of Lords - posted a message on his social media that has been roundly slammed as racist. In a series of messages about US Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, he demanded to know what happens if “the Indian” becomes president.

Despite the outrage his message caused, he has refused to recognise the damage it did. He even defended himself by saying that, as a landlord, he has Indian tenants (!). Harris’ election as Vice-President was a historic victory, but Lord Kilclooney’s comments have made headlines across the world - sending a dangerous and false message of the kind of country we are.

Frustratingly, he’s got form for this. He tweeted something similar about Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in 2018, and has also been slammed for similarly racist messages about cricketer Moeen Ali.

That’s why Act Now, a campaigning organisation in Northern Ireland, has launched a petition - to show that these are not our values and we won’t tolerate him acting this way in our name.


12 Nov 20 - 03:48 AM (#4079322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Looks like the lovely Tories are at it again - employing the language of the Alt-Right movement in the US, invoking the expression ‘Cultural Marxism’, described as ‘a conspiracy theory with an anti-Semitic twist’, and protesting against the opening-up of the many untold truths lurking in the darker recesses of our cultural history.

I wonder when the Daily Fail, the Scum, and the Ex-Press will begin a barrage of accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ against them?

I won’t hold my breath.


12 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM (#4079325)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the uk and the irish governments should introduce free school milk and free school dinners, children should not have to go to school hungry. well done rashford.


12 Nov 20 - 04:13 AM (#4079328)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre,

But we waver ever more. Steadfastly refusing to sit the fence - Aren't We?
In cosmic terms (Donuel help me out here) the LibDems are an unstable Lagrange Point - very apt, "near two large bodies circling each other".


12 Nov 20 - 05:18 AM (#4079333)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)


13 Nov 20 - 02:23 AM (#4079427)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There are rumours of Dominic Cummings leaving by Christmas 2020.

I am fairly sure, though not 100%, that several years ago there was talk of him staying until Brexit was through. If so, disappearing from the scene just before the end of transition would fit precisely with that plan. There have, however, been a long series of 'Cummings is about to go' stories every six months or so since the 2016 vote. He was leaving for health reasons, then only staying to see Boris become PM, then Boris get elected, and so on, so this could well be another of those. On the other hand he is a handy recipient for the Cabinet to blame for any of the decisions over the last year that did not work out as they wanted.

we will see. With luck, if he goes, the disruptive plans he has initiated for pretty much all governmental bodies will go with him.


13 Nov 20 - 03:40 AM (#4079431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think he is leaving for a job with Donald Trump :- D


13 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM (#4079440)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)
Surely then they would still be "Going to school hungry" unless they had a breakfast at home first.

As I understood it, school dinners (during term time) were to keep the children going through the afternoon without needing to go home for lunch. This makes the job easier for teachers (by reducing the to and fro, and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day) and allows for 'free school meals' for those who can't afford them. But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not.


13 Nov 20 - 06:18 AM (#4079443)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Touché, Nigel. I consider myself to have been out-nitpicked!

In spite of my socialist inclinations, I think that certain benefits should be available to all, even the richest, means-testing set aside, as that makes us all stakeholders in the state. Even the top billionaire gets free NHS healthcare at the point of access. Everyone gets the same tax-free allowance up to a handsome £100,000 income a year before the means-testing kicks in. Every child is entitled to free state education. I think that free school meals should be universal too. We can all argue about the feckless and undeserving poor, etc., but taxpayers paying for school meals is as chicken feed next to the indulgently-low top tax rates for big earners and the fact that we turn a blind eye to tax avoidance/evasion. A few years ago I seem to remember reading that, via the latter, we let off the mega-rich to the tune of around a hundred billion a year.


13 Nov 20 - 07:18 AM (#4079453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I think more of the feckless and undeserving rich (not those who make their income through their own talents and dedication, but those who grow their wealth through exploiting other peoples' labours. Those who want more than their entitlement (health, education, 'a place a live'), and resent having to continue to pay their share towards universal entitlement. I know a place to live is not included, but I also remember the first time I went to Poland, and having difficultly in explaining the concept of homelessness.


13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM (#4079454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day"

Yes.. teachers do need a few hours off work to get some sleep at night...

My wife's school day ends when she switches her laptop and mobile phone off
minutes before she goes upstairs to bed...

.. if she can avoid restless nights worrying about the next day's problems at school...

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...


13 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM (#4079456)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I paraphrase this from something I say yesterday.

I breaks the heart of a socialist to know that people are going hungry so that socialist will gladly feed 100 people, even knowing that 5 of them don't deserve it.

It breaks the heart of a capitalist to know that someone is getting something they don't deserve so that capitalist will happily let 100 people starve rather than have 5 get something they are not entitled to.

Yes, Nigel, I know you will point something out but it sums up attitudes nicely.


13 Nov 20 - 08:25 AM (#4079458)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Millions of tory voting furloughed employees now have the luxury
of lots more free time at home,
to get on social media to moan about scroungers on benefits...


13 Nov 20 - 08:47 AM (#4079459)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

PFR :-D


13 Nov 20 - 12:40 PM (#4079484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not."

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

Just as an aside, my school was a 20 minute journey by bus from my home, longer because I walked. So add two 20 minute journeys (presuming the bus timetable fell just right) that would allow me just 20 minute to prepare and consume a meal, and wash the pots I should add.

The expression "give your head a shake" comes to mind.


13 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM (#4079485)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...


That may be what you think, but it's not what I said.


13 Nov 20 - 12:47 PM (#4079486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

It's outrageous giving the poor scum children taxpayer funded free food.

The dirty little oiks will only trade it for drugs and knives...


13 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM (#4079487)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

I'm amazed that every child of your acquaintance got free school meals. How would you even know? I remember having to take in 'dinner money' once a week.
And if both your parents were tax-payers I'm surprised that you got free school meals.


13 Nov 20 - 12:55 PM (#4079489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - you might not have typed those exact words, but...



What a day, eh..

The ripper and cummings.. which will be most missed...???


13 Nov 20 - 01:12 PM (#4079494)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

The mucking out of the stables. quote Much as i dislike cummings your remark comparing him to the ripper is an insult to the yorkshire rippers victims and tasteless.


13 Nov 20 - 01:17 PM (#4079496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I didn't read the remark as comparing the two.


13 Nov 20 - 01:27 PM (#4079499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - Yes.. maybe, but the ripper, as evil as he was, payed for his crimes..

Cummings is still free at large, and will ultimately be responsible
for destroying countless more lives than sutcliffe ever could...


[..and Dick, btw.. I'm in a generous mood.
I gave you an easy one to have a go at me about..]


15 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM (#4079707)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The Guardian’s view - absolutely spot-on as always - of the Cummings and goings at 10, Downing Street. It’ll be interesting to see how Dumber gets on without Dom telling him what to do.


16 Nov 20 - 03:08 AM (#4079780)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

how about postponing brexit untilcovid vaccines have been tried and tested and are successful, we now have boris going down with it again.


16 Nov 20 - 03:24 AM (#4079785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Not an option, Sandman, I am afraid. Legally, Brexit happened in January. We are no longer members of the EU. The transition period end in December and any extension had to be requested by in June or July. In any case, from a UK perspective, the end of transition date is written in primary legislation and so it would need an act of Parliament to alter it.

Here is a clipping of David Davis from the Express in Jan 2019:
Brexiteer Mr Davis told BBC Today that the EU was "testing the mettle of the British Government. The government is running out the timetable, running out the clock but actually, there are now already signs that the EU knows it needs a deal and it will come back."

He continued: "The simple truth is that they will hold fast to their line - this is the traditional approach of the European Commission, the European Union.

"They will hold fast to their line to the last possible minute and then, if we hold fast to our line, then they will actually come back and renegotiate."


As far as I can see, the entire UK strategy has been what Game Theory refers to as 'Chicken'.   The claim is that all we have to do is stick to whatever we want firmly enough and the EU will concede in the last minute. We still seem to be playing the game today in what could be the last week for negotiations.

The problem, of course, is that if neither side gives up, you have an almighty head-on crash as both sides lose out. Which looks as if it is where we are heading. The sensible thing is to change course, obviously, but that is seen as losing, and neither player wants that.

There are a lot of mathematical Games in Game Theory. It is typical we took the highest risk one.


16 Nov 20 - 04:46 AM (#4079793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The EU are not subject to UK law, so if the EU were to decide to stop victimising the majority of the UK population, they could easily extend transition indefinitely until the UK rejoins the EU. he only reason for not doing so would be pure spite towards those of us who are pro-EU/European. Of course we don't know what dark money is influencing the other 27 heads of state to make them victimise us.


17 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM (#4079937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I don't get your meaning SPB. Sorry :-(

In what way is the EU "victimising the majority of the UK population"?


17 Nov 20 - 04:18 PM (#4079983)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

After isolating with his dog, Johnson has now tested positive for kennel cough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


17 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM (#4079991)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

bonzo when you are in a hole stop dogging


17 Nov 20 - 06:43 PM (#4080006)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I'm rip-roaring incandescent about what I've just watched on Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewed Jenny Manson (Jewish Voice for Labour and a Corbyn supporter) and then, separately, Louise Ellman (ex-Labour MP and ex-party member and implacable Corbyn opponent), following Jeremy Corbyn's reinstatement to the party. Jenny Manson was constantly interrupted and harried by Wark and was scarcely able to get any point across. Then Louise Ellman was treated gently and politely, almost diffidently, and was allowed to speak at length with hardly any interrupting at all. Blatant bias and well below the standard we should expect from BBC presenters.

I've complained to the Beeb...


17 Nov 20 - 06:48 PM (#4080007)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

you should have heard the venomous rant BBC news allowed marie van der zyl...

Her face was a portrait of fanatical hatred...


17 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM (#4080008)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I think I recorded it.
But Sky+ boxes make it impossible to share recorded files...


17 Nov 20 - 07:01 PM (#4080010)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I missed that: was it tonight and approx how far in? I have iPlayer...
.


17 Nov 20 - 07:08 PM (#4080011)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

BBC News channel

20:15 - 20:25

Wiki: van der zyl

"She is a self-described "fighter" and takes as a compliment the comparison that "the only difference between me and a Rottweiler
is that a Rottweiler eventually lets go".[8]

Her visits to her grandparents gave her, she says, "a great passion for Israel"[1]
and she believes that the Board exists "to promote a sympathetic understanding of Israel."[3]
She has pledged to "defend Israel’s legitimacy and its centrality to Jewish identity".[9]
"


17 Nov 20 - 08:20 PM (#4080012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Grr. Beeb won't let me go that far back. Maybe it's somewhere else and I'll keep looking. Though trying to find her saying anything is a form of sado-masochism...


18 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM (#4080029)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The reinstatement of Corbyn has put Starmer into a very difficult position. The main finding of the ECHR report was that the leadership should not be interfering in the investigations and decisions of the formal complaints procedure. So if Starmer does do anything about the reinstatement he is going against the report himself. Yet you can bet that there will be no end of commentary saying 'Starmer should do this, or that'.   So the NEC has brought Labour anti-Semitism back central stage when all our focus should be the virus and Brexit. It is an utter gift to Johnson in the midst of his woes and damaging to the country as a whole because it is a distraction from those critical concerns.


18 Nov 20 - 04:30 AM (#4080038)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

2 what ifs..

What if Starmer had given Corbyn gentle behind the scenes persuasion
to retire with dignity...???

or..

What if Corbyn had been diplomatically booted up to the Lords...???



Nah.. Corbyns vindictive enemies have too tight a grip on Starmer's
short n curlies..

They'll only settle for Corbyn's head on a pike...


18 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM (#4080045)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

This antisemitism thing isn't going away, ever. The pro-Israel "left" (term used advisedly) lobby in this country (which includes, among many others, those arseholes such as Hodge, Berger, Smeeth, Mann and Ellman and a whole cabal of "Labour Friends of Israel" MPs), along with the Board Of Deputies, will not rest until they have turned Starmer into a led-by-the-nose poodle who auto-condemns any and all criticism of the Israeli regime. So far, he has utterly failed to point out to them and the rest of us that antisemitism (as vehemently opposed to anti-Netanyahu-ism) is a curse that RUNS THROUGH THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY, and that the illegitimate obsessive focus on Labour by these bloody control freaks (a) does nothing to solve the wider issues surrounding racism in this country, (b) will simply perpetuate the reign of right-wing, populist and, yes, RACIST Tories, who are far worse than Labour in almost every regard when it comes to racism. Why, in a poll a couple of years ago it was found that 48% of Tory voters actually characterised themselves as racist, fer chrissake. Anyone for flag-waving piccaninnies? Watermelon smiles? Bank robbers? Letterboxes?

Led-by-the-nose is right. He needs to tell the Manns, Ellmans and the rest to mind their own bloody business and look to the deficiencies and dishonesty of their own side. As for the Board Of Deputies, you are unelected. Enjoy your right to free speech but don't be surprised when we bite back to tell you how your stance serves to strengthen a bellicose regime that represses and discriminates against the Palestinian minority and that is a perpetual running sore in the Middle East. Talk about blind in one eye. That's been known to be called bigotry.

Just flashed up as I was typing this that it's been edicted that Jeremy can't sit as a Labour MP. There'll be a lot of gleeful hand-rubbing going on. What a muddle. What a gift.


19 Nov 20 - 04:35 AM (#4080181)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

starmer is a political idiot. Corbyn can stand at the next election as an independent and win the seat one less seat for labour. the man starmer is as thick as two short planks


19 Nov 20 - 05:04 AM (#4080184)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I imagine his judgement is that he will win more seats elsewhere. He may be right or wrong, but it is not an idiotic position in itself.

More serious, in that respect, are the 28 Labour MPs demanding Corbyn's reinstatement. If a substantial number of these resign the whip - or a similar number resign if Starmer does reinstate Corbyn - then you are not talking of gaining one seat to replace Corbyn's, but perhaps ten that need to be replaced. That's a much higher barrier to surmount.


19 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM (#4080185)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

he is politically idiotic ,corbyn will win his own seat no problem at next election, in the meantime he is splitting the labour party further


19 Nov 20 - 07:19 AM (#4080196)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Politically idiotic is strong words, but I think I agree. Read again the words that Corbyn uttered that got him suspended. He did not deny antisemitism, he didn't say that nothing should be done, he expressed his valid view mildly. No hate speech, just free speech from an MP who no longer held a position in the party. I could just about agree that he'd have been tactically better to keep it zipped at that time, but hey ho, at least he's unspun. He was pounced on for that by a "leader" who was looking fearfully over his shoulder at the pro-Israel lobby (NOT the anti-antisemitism lobby in m'humble). So now he's got himself into this utterly predictable tangle. Jeremy Corbyn looks, by streets, to be the most dignified person in the middle of all this at present. I wonder who will be the first to start baying that 28 antisemite MPs have called for Corbyn to be reinstated. Will it be the Mail or the Board Of Deputies? Or let's get Margaret Hodge to say it to Kirsty on Newsnight!


19 Nov 20 - 07:38 AM (#4080202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is just my opinion, naturally, but I think the NEC created the split by reinstating Corbyn. At that point Starmer had a choice of exactly what kind of split, but a split- or at least a major row - was unavoidable.

For my money, the best solution would have been to draft the new disciplinary procedure, ideally getting the ECHR to sign it off, and then review Corbyn's position under the new system. Then he either gets fully brought back in, including the whip, or he stays out, rather than this half and half mixture.


19 Nov 20 - 08:13 AM (#4080207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'll still continue futiley voting Labour,
for lack of a better alternative to never voting at all...

"Labour - The Hopeles Party for Hope"...


19 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM (#4080208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"s"..

.there it is.. found the litle buger..

I mentioned earlier in the wek
that my keyboard has developed a problem
with double leters...


19 Nov 20 - 08:57 AM (#4080213)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I get totally fed up with factional foot stomping. it is pathetic when the factions threaten to inflict tory vermin on us until they get their way. They are not labour, they are not socialist because all they care about is their own faction having power and authority and they don't give a toss about labour and socialist values.

I was not a supporter of the previous Labour leadership, but I still gave up my time and energy to campaign on behalf of the labour party - and locally we have won every election: Council, GLA, London Mayor, local MP, even the local referendum vote as it was a democratic vote.

Now that leadership has changed as a result of another demographic vote, those who call themselves socialist are throwing their toys out of the pram and almost from day one have proved that they have no loyalty to the labour party at all as all they are interested in is personal power and not giving a toss about our society.

If factional in-fighting screws up the 2024 election, the tories MUST not be allowed to retain power.


19 Nov 20 - 09:24 AM (#4080221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well in my view an injustice was done to Jeremy Corbyn when he was suspended. Of course, he provided ammunition when he spoke out so quickly in the terms he used, but I repeat: he did not deny antisemitism, he spoke out against antisemitism, he did not say that nothing should be done and what he said was miles away from hate speech. I'll tell you summat for nowt: all through the seventies I was, for my sins, a hard-left trade union activist in the East End of London at a time when trade unions were perceived, incorrectly of course, as having too much clout, to be feared (cheers, media). What I learned then was that if you put two lefties together in a room, there will soon be a split. What I also learned is that all the disingenuous pleading for unity came from the more right-wing faction, every time. And what they really meant, every time, was "drop the argument and do things our way." It doesn't and shouldn't work. It's unprincipled for a start. The right in the Labour Party, go as far back as you like, not only disrespects the true socialism of the left ("because it's bad tactics") but routinely tries to sideline it. As in any political party, the quest for seniority provides grave danger of seeding careerism. Jeremy was a shining example of a principled man who shunned that. Keir has fallen for it hook, line and sinker. The only way he can see his ambition sustained is by ditching principle and pandering, pathetically, to the attack dogs behind his back whose antennae for mostly fake antisemitism are sharply tuned.


19 Nov 20 - 11:38 AM (#4080245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Great post SPB-Cooperator, thanks for that. Party before Personalities - the Golden Rule, understood perfectly by the Tories but not, apparently, by a substantial number of members of the Labour Party.

Get ready for permanent Tory rule.


19 Nov 20 - 12:51 PM (#4080257)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way." A party leadership that thinks that way will forever be the leadership of a split party. Realpolitik.


19 Nov 20 - 01:07 PM (#4080259)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Who'l last longer as leader of their parties, boris or starmer...???


19 Nov 20 - 01:22 PM (#4080264)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I left the Labour party in the late 80's. Our branch had selected a candidate to be our prospective MP after a hustings meeting. We were very happy with the way she, above the other candidates, had presented herself.

At our next branch meeting 4 guys arrived from Central office dressed in Crombie's and red scarfs and told us we couldn't have her as our candidate and we should now select another woman who we didn't know, had never met, had never spoken to and who as we found out had never even visited the town she was picked to represent.

We were disgusted at their attitude and several of us resigned on the night, and others resigned later.


19 Nov 20 - 02:47 PM (#4080268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I would have told them to fuck off!!!


19 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM (#4080271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

bonz - since of late you sem to be drifting further left in some of your posts.
Maybe time for you to aceopt it and join Labour.

There's not enough honest direct resorts to saying "fuck off!!!" in the party.


19 Nov 20 - 03:05 PM (#4080273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way."

First of all, I’m not ‘the Right’ Steve, I’m Centre-Left. And it’s the Left who are wanting it ‘totally their way’ judging by the evidence here. People like me are saying, “Stop fighting each other, find centre-ground, and DO YOUR JOB which, you Corbynistas seem to have forgotten, is to FIGHT THE TORY GOVERNMENT.

Party members don’t elect Governments, the voting public do that and, in 2019, the voting public told Corbyn resoundingly to Fuck Off. Anyone with an ounce of dignity and self-respect who had led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory - a defeat by the weakest Tory party led by the weakest Tory leader in living memory and with nothing to offer but a one-issue manifesto - would need no ‘gentle behind the scenes persuasion to retire’. Rather than hanging around shit-stirring he’d have been compelled by his own sense of shame to do it of his own volition the day after the election.

I repeat, as I’ve repeated many times - the Party is far, far bigger than any individual, including Corbyn, and members should get their intransigent heads around that unarguable fact, unite behind the current leader, who was democratically elected by those same members, stop wasting the votes of those of us who demonstrated our trust in Labour at the GE and who were failed disastrously, and start working to free the nation from this self-serving, shameless, shameful bunch of Tory rogues currently raping the United Kingdom.

Until that begins to happen, the LP exists for no reason other than to stimulate its members’ vulgar public display of political onanism.


19 Nov 20 - 03:24 PM (#4080277)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd have thought starmer would have suficient inteligence not to make such a political martyr of Corbyn..

.. unles.. he's doing it deliberately as part of a calculated strategy
to incite mas constructive dismisal from the leftiest members...???


19 Nov 20 - 04:07 PM (#4080281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Corbyn is making a martyr of himself.


19 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM (#4080291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well, John. Starmer, McCluskey, Hodge, Lansman, Ellman and the Board Of Deputies are all making a hell of a lot of noise. One person who isn't making a noise is Jeremy Corbyn. Hardly the martyr style, that, is it? And let me just put this to you. Read the words that Jeremy Corbyn uttered in reaction to the report that basically damned him. Did he deny antisemitism? No he didn't. Did he say that nothing needed to be done? No he didn't. Did he speak intemperately and with hatred? No he didn't. He expressed some disagreement, in measured terms in my opinion, of a report that he regarded had unfairly excoriated him. So was that sufficient to suspend him? If you say no, though he was unwise to open his mouth at that time, your response by any measure is nothing if not fair-minded. If you say yes, you are effectively arguing against free speech, against that treasured concept of Labour being a broad church. You are also conniving in the opportunism that we have seen in the Party on a number of occasions recently aimed at using even the slightest pretext for getting rid of people who you don't like. Not that they've done much wrong, just that you don't like them because they don't fit your agenda. And before you jump down my throat with a litany of "wrong things" that Jeremy has done, just remember that he was suspended, ostensibly, for his form of words as the report was published. Not for anything else, eh? Or was he? And can you honestly say that that's the bandwagon you're not jumping on? It's not Corbyn who's a martyr. Starmer is making a martyr of the party.

As for left and right, my context in these posts has been the Labour Party. Corbyn, the Campaign Group and union representatives such as McCluskey, among others, are on the left of the party. Starmer and most of his cabinet are on the right of the party. There are far harder lefties outside the party than the people I've named and, in the overall scheme of things, Starmer and co are somewhere in the centre of UK politics ("centre-left" is definitely pushing it in my opinion). It's a bit weird really. Most lefties I've known are puffing their chests out with pride when they get called lefties, but, oddly, very few people ever like to be labelled "right." My remarks with regard to Labour are purely in the context of the party. I would have thought that was obvious, but hey ho.


19 Nov 20 - 07:05 PM (#4080292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

And on a slightly whimsical note, Priti Patel, who abused her position in government by making secret unauthorised liaisons with the Israeli regime, and who has now been found guilty of breaching ministerial rules via bullying, is likely to get no more than a slap on the wrist. Jeremy, chucked off the Labour benches. Priti, a cabinet minister and the most powerful woman in government. Jeremy, just a backbencher. Quite a contrast, eh?


20 Nov 20 - 01:39 AM (#4080300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i agree with Steve


20 Nov 20 - 07:12 AM (#4080319)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Cheers, Dick.

So Priti was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have breached the ministerial code and bullied her underlings. but Boris, on his own and overnight, before anyone has had a proper chance to see the report, sez Oh no she didn't, so end of, right? (We'll see...)

Jeremy Corbyn was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have not adequately addressed the antisemitism issue. He acknowledged the issue and accepted that more had to be done, but protested, in mild language, that the issue had been exaggerated (and he wasn't exactly in a minority of one in thinking that, was he?). But he was thrown out of the party, and then, when reinstated by a unanimous vote of an NEC committee, was denied the whip.

Compare and contrast. And don't forget to compare and contrast the levels of "media outrage" being generated by each. A budgie might land on Priti's shoulder whilst the hawks will circle over Jeremy's head...


20 Nov 20 - 07:22 AM (#4080321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd rather a seagull shat on her head...


20 Nov 20 - 07:26 AM (#4080322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

...Or a rather athletic one that could shit horizontally right on to that smirk....


20 Nov 20 - 08:14 AM (#4080330)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It is a pity pigs don't fly.....Pottymouth Patel seems to be proud of being xenophobic.


20 Nov 20 - 09:02 AM (#4080336)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report. But it is being reported differently in the Telegraph.
According to the front page:
"Priti Patel 'unintentionally' breached the ministerial code. . . However, the inquiry also found she had become 'justifiably frustrated' by obstructive mandarins who failed to tell her about the impact of her behaviour."

That seems to be in line with her previous claim that there had been no complaints for her to respond to.


20 Nov 20 - 09:12 AM (#4080337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

*Sigh*. Why am I not surprised at that, Nigel?

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...


20 Nov 20 - 09:27 AM (#4080340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...

At the start of the pandemic countries around the world were attempting to source whatever supplies of PPE they could get, and the NHS was suffering through a shortage of such equipment.
Under such circumstances the government were justified in buying what equipment they could, from almost any source.
In better times, when demand does not greatly outstrip supply, you can afford the luxury of selecting your suppliers with greater care.
The same supply and demand rules means that we (as a country) are placing orders for vaccines before they have been thoroughly tested, and from multiple suppliers (10 million here, 40 million there).
Some knowledge of 'market forces' helps people to understand what is happening, and why.


20 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM (#4080341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...


20 Nov 20 - 10:53 AM (#4080343)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...

No, If you would read, and understand, first. "I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

1, I wasn't defending Priti Patel, but pointing out that the report has yet to be published. Until it is then different sources will highlight different parts which may be in the original.
2, It may be possible, with the benefit of hindsight, to show the PPE was sourced from China, but made under unsuitable conditions. But I don't doubt that PPE obtained from other countries (or from UK suppliers) might also have a similar origin. At the time of purchase it was important to get PPE supplies from somewhere, and there was a global shortage.
Would you have preferred that the NHS were told they could have no further PPE until after suppliers (and their whole supply chain) had been given full vetting?


20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM (#4080345)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

What was reported Nigel was:

"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation, concluded that Patel’s approach “amounted to behaviour that can be described as bullying” – noting instances of shouting and swearing – and decided that she had breached the ministerial code, although he said her actions may have been “unintentional”.

So the man in charge of the report quite clearly states her action WERE bullying and had broken the ministerial code but tempered that by saying her actions MAY have been unintentional.


20 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM (#4080358)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I would just point out that being "unintentional" does not excuse breaches of law, and rarely codes of behaviour of any kind. After all, almost anyone could claim a behaviour was unintentional, if that was all it took. But of course, the claim she was unaware of such behaviour bears little weight when Sir Philip Rutnam resigned after accusing her of being involved in a "vicious and orchestrated campaign". Even if she denies it, it would be reasonable if you were accused of it to wonder why people might think you were.


20 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM (#4080361)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

From today's Daily Mash.

PRITI Patel has confessed she had no idea that Chinese burns, nutsack drawer-slammings and regular wedgies were what the weak considered ‘bullying’.

The home secretary faces allegations of what civil servants call bullying and she calls ‘robust motivational techniques’, including getting your briefcase thrown onto the roof and swirlies.

She said: “So calling a senior civil servant a four-eyed pisswipe who shags his mum is ‘bullying’ now, is it? Well I didn’t know.

“May I remind you that some of these people insist they are ‘politically neutral’ instead of backing Brexit to the absolute hilt? If that’s not provocation I don’t know what is.

“Yes, perhaps I did flush the occasional lunch down the toilets. Perhaps a few pairs of glasses got stamped on. Perhaps copies of the ministerial code left on my desk, with key passages highlighted, were returned smeared with excrement.

But I am a strong, decisive woman who demands a lot of my employees, and I don’t apologise for that. Now come here. Me and my gang are going to throw you in the bins.”

Conservative MP Eleanor Shaw said: “Priti is not a bully and is a kind, wonderful person. When I hear her coming I definitely do not hide in the toilets.”


20 Nov 20 - 12:53 PM (#4080362)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Aha.. "Plausible deniability" rears it's predictable head again
as a flimsy defence for a high ranking tory wrongdoer...


20 Nov 20 - 02:27 PM (#4080375)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM
What was reported Nigel was:
"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation . . .


"What was reported" where? and by whom?. (It helps to judge the value of any "quoted" comment)
At least Steve's quote is shown to be from a satirical website.


20 Nov 20 - 03:01 PM (#4080381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

From the actual report Nigel. It is in much of the media.

"“My advice is that the Home Secretary has not consistently met the high standards required by the Ministerial Code of treating her civil servants with consideration and respect. Her approach on occasions has amounted to behaviour that can described as bullying in terms of impact felt by individuals.

To that extent her behaviour has been in breach of the Ministerial Code, even if unintentionally."

You can try and spin it all you want but the facts remain the same. I am appalled that you can even try and defend her.


20 Nov 20 - 03:31 PM (#4080384)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

From the Guardian:

However, Sir Philip Rutnam, who resigned as the Home Office’s permanent secretary after accusing Patel of a “vicious and orchestrated briefing campaign” against him, added to the pressure on Patel by challenging a claim in the bullying report that she had been given no feedback about her behaviour by civil servants, and was therefore unaware of the impact.

The Guardian Today newsletter: the headlines, the analysis, the debate – sent direct to you

 

Read more

“This is not correct,” Rutnam said. “As early as August 2019, the month after her appointment, she was advised that she must not shout and swear at staff. I advised her on a number of further occasions between September 2019 and February 2020 about the need to treat staff with respect, and to make changes to protect health, safety and wellbeing.”

In another remarkable admission, he said he was “at no stage asked to contribute evidence to the Cabinet Office investigation”.


20 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM (#4080395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Doesn't that make her a liar and the investigation a whitewash, or what?

By the way, Nigel, satirical or not, many a true sentiment has been expressed in jest....


21 Nov 20 - 02:05 AM (#4080433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - that's very true....

There's a despairingly serious subtext
to most of my sarcastic absurdist comments...


They are not just shite jokes...


21 Nov 20 - 02:44 AM (#4080435)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have a suspicion that boris and cruella were ex bed mates, pigs may not fly but they seem to fornicate,


21 Nov 20 - 09:54 AM (#4080467)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

ex.. or he still thinks he's in with a chance if he continues 'looking after' her...

If he scratches her back, she might.....


21 Nov 20 - 12:34 PM (#4080484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Following Major and Currie, anything is possible.


21 Nov 20 - 02:02 PM (#4080493)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I was looking at the Kyrgystan tourism website and notice that UK currently has a visa free arrangement by virtue of being an EU member. Have the Foreign Office workers sorted out visa free travel for EVERY country for which EU visa free arrangements currently exist from 1 second past midnight on 1st January, or are they quite happy to face personal retribution form the public for their incompetence if they fail to do so (sort of ironic rant).


21 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM (#4080499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The Patel saga gets murkier by the day.

In today's Guardian:
====
Boris Johnson’s former adviser on ministerial standards was prevented from interviewing a key witness for his formal bullying inquiry into Priti Patel.

Legal and Whitehall sources have revealed that Sir Alex Allan sought to interview the former top Home Office civil servant Sir Philip Rutnam about his dealings with Patel, but was blocked by government officials.

Allan’s bullying inquiry was launched by the prime minister following the resignation of Rutnam over’s Patel’s alleged behaviour and he is suing the government for constructive dismissal. Sources say Allan was informed he could not interview Rutnam for his independent inquiry because of the legal action.

Allan, however, felt that his inquiry was being denied potentially crucial evidence. The inability of the prime minister’s former ethics adviser to question Rutnam also prompted a “spirited row” within the government’s legal department.

Even so, he uncovered sufficient material to conclude that Patel had broken the code governing ministers’ behaviour.
=====

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.


21 Nov 20 - 03:37 PM (#4080508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.


21 Nov 20 - 03:43 PM (#4080509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.

Might it be that as Rutnam is currently suing the government for constructive dismissal, he has an interest in seeing her dismissed which would support his case? As such, his testimony to the tribunal might be biased.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but it does answer the question.


21 Nov 20 - 03:53 PM (#4080511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But all the Patel apologist tories who are saying that is the case,
are yet again resorting to type
by closing ranks and automatically maliciously blaming the victim...


21 Nov 20 - 03:57 PM (#4080512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.

My judgement (not that it would have any effect) is that I have still not seen the report. I have seen quotes about the report, from both sides, but (unless you know of an online full copy) I still have not seen the report.

I'm not giving a conclusion one way or the other based on evidence which I haven't seen. Others may not be so scrupulous.


21 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM (#4080513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.


21 Nov 20 - 04:01 PM (#4080514)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.


21 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM (#4080515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:01
Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.


Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, Raggy.
Do you have access to the report that you can provide?

No? I thought not!


21 Nov 20 - 04:14 PM (#4080516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.
That is another possibility, but a very difficult view to come to without more evidence, which we're not being given.


21 Nov 20 - 04:40 PM (#4080519)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. and whose interests are best served by controlling and suppressing
availability of evidence...???


23 Nov 20 - 02:31 PM (#4080694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Bank of England governor says a "No-Deal" Brexit would cost more than covid

Speaking to MPs on the Commons Treasury committee, he said the fallout from the pandemic and the second national lockdown in England was having a much bigger short-term impact on the economy. However, “the long-term effects, I think, would be larger than the long-term effects of Covid. But … it would be better to have a trade deal, yes, no question about it.”

Nice to know, I suppose.


24 Nov 20 - 03:01 AM (#4080759)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

On this last page alone we have discussed the Labour party divisions, Brexit, government contracts and Priti Patel's bullying behaviour. It really is about time the ridiculous rule about only having one UK politics thread is removed. There has been no acrimony or long running battles in the thread for weeks. The previous problems have been resolved. There are numerous threads about Donald Trump. Come on, Mods. It is about time!


24 Nov 20 - 10:14 AM (#4080796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

the Now Show Radio 4. The closing song (at approx 25:30 mins) by Flo & Jo a tribute to Dolly Parton part funding a vaccine came up with the immortal line:

Not all blondes are bimbos (except the one in number 10).

A tribute with bite. Yea!


25 Nov 20 - 09:44 AM (#4080919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhHhL_15Nw&ab_channel=DoubleDownNews

Definitely worth watching...


25 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM (#4080945)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

thanks for that pdf, the most sensible comment i have seen on the question for ages. i can't understand why keir starmer is so keen to attack it. there surely can't be much to be gained by going along with the far right israeli government line. he is just out to appease the daily mail and cause trouble, obviously - but why?


25 Nov 20 - 06:21 PM (#4080950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Jesus, that was powerful. I watched ur. it with tears in my eyes. I suppose that makes me an antisemite...


25 Nov 20 - 07:12 PM (#4080954)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Delete the ur.


26 Nov 20 - 06:46 AM (#4081012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have been chatting to PFR about Bluetooth ear phones too so took the opportunity to test something using that clip. Yep. Powerful stuff and I agree with every word she says.