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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

22 Jan 19 - 05:01 AM (#3972780)
Subject: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw

The closure of the thread feels like collective punishment. Latterly, most of us have been stridently trying to resist the inanities of the one idiot who has been messing up the thread by sidelining him. Contrary to what the closer of the thread seemed to be claiming, discussion of this topic has far from run its course and things are set to move on dramatically quickly in the next few weeks. It's actually history in the making, no exaggeration, and we should be able to talk about it. Thank you.


22 Jan 19 - 05:10 AM (#3972783)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll

In fairness, most of us have played some part in closing it - some more than others
This will continue to happen until we start to police ourselves and control our own behaviour as well as dealing with the real gluggers

I read this morning that forty-plus Tory MPs have threatened to resign if they (the House of Common members) aren't given the final say on Brexit
Jim


22 Jan 19 - 05:11 AM (#3972784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw

Jim, we have been trying to police ourselves in recent days. We can stop him if we try.


22 Jan 19 - 05:14 AM (#3972785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains

I feel I must congratulate the mud elf for their public display of good taste in closing the previous thread. Describing one's unsavoury bowel habits in order to make a point is thoroughly distasteful.


22 Jan 19 - 05:50 AM (#3972789)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman

Thanks for trying, Steve. Alas, I fear the Moderators' Pet will get this thread closed too, judging by his first contribution. UNLESS - everyone completely sidelines him. No responses whatsoever, either direct or indirect, to his provocation.

It's the only way to demonstrate who are, and who are not, the 'bastards' (as the Mods so charmingly describe those who challenge bigotry and provocation) on here.


22 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM (#3972790)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll

"We can stop him if we try."
Can we not make this about him please
While we respond to him we become part of it, as a mod has just pointed out to me - now the Mods have been made fully aware of hat e is, he can't continue as he has for much longer anyway
Ignore him - all of us, if we want this thread (and BS section) to survive

Onward and upward to Brexit - or hopefully to kicking it into touch
I don't agree with you about referendums Steve - they've changed Irish Society for the better and there's no reason they can't do the same for Britain if they are presented properly and not used as Populist maneuvering   
It seems to me that the only answer to the present fiasco is to put the vote to the people again - now the clownish behaviour of the establishment and the revelations as to what leaving Europe will bring will at last give the electorate some idea of what they are voting for rather than the unfulfillable promises that brought about this mess in the first place
It has to be done by open debate, not within the Parliamentary greenhouse - I'd love to see Posh-Boy Moggie face to face with the articulate debater Corbyn seems to be becoming - I know who my money would be on
If, after all this, a majority ('bout time PR was considered for eections) still want to leave there's not much you can do about it
I have little doubt the people will sort it out anyway when things do go radically wrong - with a great deal of added hardship to the have-nots who have to pick up the tab, of course

Parliamentary debate has become little more than meaningless words shouted over a constant noise from a herd of bleating sheep
Let's see the the thing thrashed out openly by articulate people and for Christ's sake, let someone point out the inhumanity of using refugees from wars and poverty Britain has helped and even facilitated, as political pawns
It's about time Britain's situation in all this was dealt with holistically rather than a series of separate issues
Jim


22 Jan 19 - 06:07 AM (#3972792)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Dave the Gnome

Good news about brexit

On balance I think there is more bad than good but in the interests of fairness I think this piece should be included. Even if it is by the co-editor of "The Conservative Woman" :-)


22 Jan 19 - 06:11 AM (#3972795)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman

Like Steve, I've been against another referendum (I dislike referendums as a matter of principle - they seem to me to be a cowardly cop-out by the very people we have elected to very well-paid positions of responsibility for making these decisions on our behalf. As the saying goes, you don't keep a dog and bark yourself.

But I'm coming round to thinking that, with May's intransigence, the government's paralysis, and the unwillingness of many MPs to do what they know in their hearts is best for the country as a whole, a 'second referendum' is probably the best route to take.


22 Jan 19 - 06:17 AM (#3972797)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw

She's deluded.

Nothing to either agree or disagree with me about, Jim. Whilst I am opposed to referendums, because they dress up complex issues as simple binary decisions to be put before an uninformed public, I've said more than once that there may be no other way out of this mess.


22 Jan 19 - 06:29 AM (#3972802)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll

Parliament are never going to decide anything seriously without putting their own self-interests first, as partied, as individual investors (as many of them are, and as career politicians) - they never have and certainly aren't likely to now
They need to be made answerable to their responsibilities and their promises - until they are, the people need a voice in what happens to their lives and their communities
Five years of promises that will not be honoured is as far from democracy as is Parliamentary dictatorship
On issues of national importance I can't see any alternative other than referenda
Sorry - 'Mary Queen of Scots' calls - see y'all tomorrow
Jim


22 Jan 19 - 07:25 AM (#3972815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: KarenH

I am sorry, but for me Jim's conduct has had as much to do with wrecking the thread as anybody else's. If, and I say if, he is feeling proud of having done this, or feels that he has achieved some kind of victory, then I would just like to register a feeling that he is mistaken.


22 Jan 19 - 07:39 AM (#3972818)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw

Karen, we are actually trying very hard right now to sideline the real villain of the piece. Jim is now onside. If we ignore troll posts and talk about brexit, we may just manage to keep the topic alive. What's done is done. There is genuinely something important to talk about here.


22 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM (#3972824)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman

Karen, I think Jim will be the first to admit that his behaviour has left much to be desired at times. I also think that several of us are working to help Jim refrain from being reactive to the disgraceful provocation - the bile and vitriol, the name-calling, the deliberate attempts (often unfortunately successful) to 'press buttons', aimed at him and, to possibly a lesser extent, to others here - by his Nemesis.

I know that Jim is trying hard to improve his behaviour, as are the others I referred to, by refusing to react or respond to provocation - the only one who, as yet, seems unable to acknowledge his own part in all the trouble on the 'Brexit #2' thread is the aforementioned provocateur, whose single contribution to this thread so far is in precisely the same provocative vein as the vast majority of his posts on the closed thread.


22 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM (#3972827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Donuel

Then let this be about the associated Brexit conundrums instead of searching for the one true villain amoung many.
Brexit has its own HBO movie staring Kumberbatch. Too bad the script writer didn't consult with you folks.


22 Jan 19 - 08:59 AM (#3972837)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains

To get back on track!
'Stop reporting fake news!' BBC forced to apologise for 'editing' Brexiteer Newsnight clip

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1075950/Brexit-news-BBC-Newsnight-UK-Nadine-Dorries-Conservative-Party-latest


22 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM (#3972838)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: SPB-Cooperator

Will this government ever do what is right for the country if they know that in doing so it will divide their support at the ballot box?


22 Jan 19 - 09:27 AM (#3972848)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw

No they won't. The long, sorry history of Toryism in this country is to prioritise looking after their own (the wealthy, the landowners, the landlords, the tycoons and the fast-buck spivs) and to look after the interests of the Tory party. If they change from that, they won't be Tories any more. Unfortunately, at the moment it's hard to see an effective alternative that would be any different. We just have to keep fighting from within, that's all. The first step is to make sure that Corbyn realises that he's wrong to support brexit.


22 Jan 19 - 09:43 AM (#3972856)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains

They walk among us!

Fresh from telling his constituents that he knows better than them, Labour’s Ipswich MP Sandy Martin has claimed in his ‘weekly column’ that the Prime Minister had met with Corbyn to discuss Brexit options. A meeting she offered but the Labour leader famously refused to accept…


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/know-better-labour-mp-now-lies-constituents/


22 Jan 19 - 09:58 AM (#3972859)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw

From The Department Of The Bleedin' Obvious: the EU has confirmed what we knew all along but what the leavers shoved under the carpet: a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. Of course it would. We can't expect to be made a special case. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.


22 Jan 19 - 10:05 AM (#3972860)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jon Freeman

That part of the game...

These nasty Europeans will do what they're told because we are British and if they don't, they are bullying us...

Anyway, these threads go nowhere but I couldn't resist one comment on a third restart.


22 Jan 19 - 10:06 AM (#3972861)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Stilly River Sage

Steve, when the thread gets really long a couple of things happen - people veer all over the place topic-wise and it's difficult to moderate those few fighting, spam, or non sequitur posts that need to go. From this side of the pond it sounds like the Brexit conversation has entered another (perhaps even more precarious) stage, and it seemed a good time to start again. Any of you who want to review the 2,815 posts of the Brexit #2 thread are more than welcome to look back. I suspect that unless someone is mining it for old links they posted, it the conversation will simply move on from here.


22 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM (#3972871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

The British government’s insistence on upholding the result of the democratically-convened 2016 Brexit referendum is quite understandable .A quandary arises however because the outcomes of the democratically-held referendums in both the north and south of Ireland backed terms reached in the Good Friday Agreement negotiations that require “avoidance” of a physical border on the island of Ireland.

It’s hard to explain Irish history to British people who don’t want to be constantly reminded about Ireland and their country’s own involvement in Ireland’s history. Some in the UK -and indeed some in Poland whose citizens in the UK feel put at risk by Brexit - think that the Irish are being stubborn at the moment and that the GFA –an international agreement - should be set aside or its wording modified or reinterpreted in order to facilitate Theresa May’s Brexit negotiations .

Britain has said that it will not erect a hard border in Ireland : the EU said this morning that it will build a hard border in the event of a no deal being reached. That‘s the dilemma that Brexit has put EU member Ireland in : if Ireland remains in the EU and no deal has been reached , will it be party to breaking the border-avoidance clause in the Good Friday Agreement ? The GFA was worded using the language of “constructive ambiguity” so as to get most parties on side with the deal -the DUP never supported it . All parties will now be looking for nuances in meaning for the word “avoid” perhaps. But it will be difficult for any Irish government to sign up to a hard border.


22 Jan 19 - 11:03 AM (#3972876)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

There is no NEED for any kind of border between the EU and the UK. All our laws and all our regulations and all our tariffs are 100% aligned and identical. The need for a border is an invention of the EU and the reason for this invention is good subject for speculation.

Speculation 1. Based on the fear that other members may be tempted to follow suit and leave, the EU wants to be seen to be punitive towards leavers.

Speculation 2. The EU knows that a significant number, although not majority, of UK citizens do not want to leave. This large minority (actually a majority of MPs) will do their best to prevent Brexit even to the point of damaging the UK. The EU therefor gives as little as possible and asks as much as possible knowing that remainers will attempt to sabotage a successful exit. An example is the remainers insistance that 'No Deal' is taken off the table. No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK. It should be a really good bargaining tool. The remainers do not want us to have such a good bargaining tool. Also of course 'No Deal' actually means leaving. Every bit of any deal we do will tie us to the EU. The softer the Brexit the greater and tighter the ties will be. No deal means we leave and the remainers have lost completely. Bring it on.

Speculation 3. The EU is a psychotic and nonredeemable political experiment that puts an inflexible ideology before the best interests of it's member states and their populations. They would do this wouldn't they?


22 Jan 19 - 11:11 AM (#3972879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is possible there WOULD be no need if all our regulations etc were the same for all time. But as our declared intention is to change these, a border or some other scheme will be required to inspect matters arising these differences as soon as they arise. Merely being the same at the moment is not enough.


22 Jan 19 - 11:19 AM (#3972882)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

So Speculation 4 is fear of the future? That's not very healthy.


22 Jan 19 - 11:31 AM (#3972886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

That speculation is possibly right Stanton , the EU was actually very shakey before the UK referendum . Leading Brexiteers knew that and wanted to get out first - steal a march on other member states .EU leaders know that Brexit can only work for the Brexiteers at the expense of other powerful EU countries.If the wrecking operation involved in the EU’s most powerful country quitting the bloc is successful then Britain will come out dominant .So the EU leaders are taking steps to prevent a no-deal situation and keep the UK tied to the bloc. Can you blame them?


22 Jan 19 - 11:45 AM (#3972891)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Another perspective on the Border question:


https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-northern-ireland-backstop-theresa-may-how-brussels-blew-brexit/


22 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM (#3972893)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Speculation 5. The drivers for leaving would love to see a breakdown of the EU so that individual states can aggressively compete with each other; without realising that if that happened the UK would soon find out that, quite rightly, the UK population would be trodden into the ground.


22 Jan 19 - 11:53 AM (#3972894)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

the EU has confirmed a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.

"So this hard border.
Are they going to install watch towers with searchlights and machine guns and have barbed wire fences with minefields.
And what is the purpose? To keep people out or keep people in?
Smacks of creeping totalitarianism on the part of the beleaguered Brussels apparatchiks to me."


22 Jan 19 - 12:10 PM (#3972897)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

It's hard to explain Irish history to some people


22 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM (#3972902)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

No, Stanron, it is not fear of the future. You need a border of some form to accomodate a difference. That is as true in politics as it is in physics, chemistry and biology, or in social structures like entrance exams. Borders are associated with difference: no difference, no border. A difference, some sort of border. Fear does not come into in the slightest.


22 Jan 19 - 12:41 PM (#3972905)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Stanron says, still, despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary:

"No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK"

And extraordinary statement, which can only be made by someone really quite deluded.

A no deal brexit will reduce UK GDP by of order 10%, and EU GDP by 2-3%.
For the EU its a hiccup. For the UK a catastrophe. The 2008 recession was 6-7% reduction. Only the depression of the 1920s was worse.

So thats what Stanron wishes to "bring on". Economic conditions not quite as bad as the Great Depression. But significantly worse than any we have experienced in our lifetimes (apologies for any one reading who remembers the 1920s).


22 Jan 19 - 01:09 PM (#3972911)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary.
Evidence? Where is this muythical beastie?


22 Jan 19 - 01:38 PM (#3972916)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

Rupert Murdoch was once asked why he hated the EU so much. ‘That’s easy,’ he replied.’When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.’.
Jim, by using sky box you are financially contributing to rupert murdoch and brexit.


22 Jan 19 - 03:11 PM (#3972936)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

We heard you first time, Dick. Thing is, if you made a crusade out of boycotting any company or organisation that supports brexit, or has directors or CEOs who support brexit, well frankly you wouldn't be able to live your life. Anyway, Dick, I pay five quid a month for Sky Sports Mobile so that I can watch Liverpool in the Premier League and I'm buggered if I'm giving it up. I'd sooner hack off my meat and two veg with a rusty machete, frankly.


22 Jan 19 - 03:29 PM (#3972942)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

A couple of things. First, the EU contains nearly half a billion people, about seven or eight times our population, so it's arrant nonsense to suggest that the EU will somehow come off worse. Second, the EU is not blocking anything. We started this and the EU has to stick to its own rules. It's actually playing a very straight bat. We are the bad boy who can't expect special treatment.


22 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM (#3972943)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

No deal could cause a spike in adultery!!!!

From guido! It must be right.


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/project-fling-no-deal-cause-35-spike-adultery/#disqus_thread


22 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM (#3972950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The road to hell is paved with good? intentions.
The european dream is having a few hiccups.


https://www.rt.com/news/449388-macron-king-executives-execute-reforms/

Note what happened 226 years ago.


22 Jan 19 - 04:24 PM (#3972954)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

NO STEVE I disagree if i owned a television which i used to i made a conscious decision not to support sky or murdoch. i run a festival www.maritime.com i discovered when i paid my radio advertising bill that county sound was now opwned by rupert murdoch so i will not advertisec with them again, that is about having principles. Steve and jim you bang on about brexit but you have no right to because you are financially supporting murdoch, Steve, its more important to you to watch a football match shown by sky than to not give money to murdoch , absolutely pathetic.


22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM (#3972956)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

Brexit solution?


22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM (#3972957)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Another thread killer Steve.


22 Jan 19 - 05:06 PM (#3972959)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I told you, Dick, you can't run your life that way. I buy stuff from Asda, Amazon, Morrisons, Lidl, Aldi, M&S, Vodafone, BT, Apple, Microsoft, Coopers of Stortford, Specsavers, Tesco, eBay, Ford, Mazda, CPL, Mole Valley Farmers, NFU, Rangemoors at Winkleigh, Waitrose, John Lewis, Costa, Caffé Nero, Lakeland, Woolacotts, Spar, the Esso garage in Bude, Sainsbury's, Trago Mills, Donald Russell, Gloucester Services, the local butcher and the local fishmonger. Within many of those emporia I buy stuff made by Heinz, Colmans, Hellmans, the local dairy, Napolina, Roddas, Trewithen, Kraft, Cadburys, Nestlé, Weetabix, Kellogg's, Yeo Valley, Fairy, Kenwood, Delonghi, Duracell, Energiser, Rowntree, Green and Blacks, Davidstow creamery, Canon, Panasonic, Philips. And that's the tip of the iceberg. I'm not about to delve into the gargantuan task of finding out what all their brexit stances are or who's running all their shows who might be brexiteers. You can if you want to. I decided that I have to breathe at least some polluted air.


22 Jan 19 - 05:31 PM (#3972962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

I will not support Murdoch, a man who played a major part in encouraging brexit and a man who played a part inn organised violence at Wapping, and you support him just so that you can watch football pathetic


22 Jan 19 - 05:48 PM (#3972964)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Bye, Dick!

Just a feeling I'm getting, but it looks like the impetus for a people's vote is subsiding a bit.


22 Jan 19 - 06:13 PM (#3972971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Whilst I can agree with your sentiment Dick, I do not have the time to trawl through the accounts of every company I have to deal with.

I do not have a Sky package so I go to the pub to watch most sport. (I do have freesat)

Are you suggesting that I should not go the the pub because the pub pays for a Sky package?

As Steve has already suggested most major companys we have to purchase from (there being little, if any alternative) probably have some very dubious practises.

Short of sitting in the kitchen, in the dark and scratching my arse I have little alternative.


22 Jan 19 - 06:58 PM (#3972980)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Wonderful.

James Dyson who has consistently supported Brexit has now announced he is moving the HQ of the company to Singapore.

P&O Ferries are to re-register all their ships to a Cypriot flag, Sony is moving it's European HQ to Amsterdam, away from London.

I feel sure that more and more companies will leave the sinking ship in the next few weeks.

Isn't Brexit ******* marvellous !!!!


23 Jan 19 - 12:14 AM (#3973018)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

So does the exit agreement include powers to charge corporation tax to Singapore and Netherlands registered companies?


23 Jan 19 - 02:55 AM (#3973021)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

I think that I’ll vote for Brexit
Though none of my posh friends expects it
I am fairly sure-oh
I’m not at all Euro
But then again Life’s what you meks it!


23 Jan 19 - 04:15 AM (#3973024)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

A glimpse of sanity!



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/--899440.html

Bobad. Love your cartoon! but I cannot entirely agree with the sentiment expressed.


23 Jan 19 - 04:17 AM (#3973025)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

We need to keep the impetus going then Steve. No deal brexit cannot be allowed to happen, by keeping it on the table May is holding a gun to the head of the British economy. And the British people. George Osbourne was right about this.


23 Jan 19 - 04:20 AM (#3973026)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Far-right groups could exploit Brexit tensions

Why does this not surprise me one bit? It was interesting to note the following statement that some on here have been denying.

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC: "We saw a spike in hate crime after the referendum, that's never really receded.

So there's always a possibility people are being radicalised by the kind of febrile atmosphere we've got at the moment."


23 Jan 19 - 04:31 AM (#3973027)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Never thought I'd see the day when I agree with Gideon about anything but, on this occasion, he's absolutely right on the button.


23 Jan 19 - 04:50 AM (#3973030)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC:

there was no intelligence pointing to an increased level of attacks after Brexit, but added: "What's most concerning me... is its potential to divide communities and set communities against each other."

But the loopy left also poses a threat!
Britain’s most dangerous export: Corbynism. From Europe's premium policy intelligence service

https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-left-uk-europe-britains-most-dangerous-export-corbynism/


23 Jan 19 - 05:09 AM (#3973034)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Tory MP asks for help from Poland

What a twerp.


23 Jan 19 - 07:07 AM (#3973049)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Just in case anyone is wondering why a leading BrexShiteer would move his business to Singapore...


23 Jan 19 - 07:10 AM (#3973050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

....should have said, "A leading BrexShiteer who preaches Patriotism to the rest of us". Like charity, Patriotism should begin at home.


23 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM (#3973055)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Here's another idea - require all people who are paid to enter national public services (ie MPs, MEPs) to publish their tax returns for all countries in which they declare income for the rest of tier lives, with a 7 figure penalty for failing to do so, doubling each year. Although this would be an imposition for the majority of MPs, MEPs, it would show who does have their nose in the trough benefiting from the disarray caused by leaving.


23 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM (#3973059)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Some more spiffing news about brexit!

The Remoaners at the ‘Fair Vote Project’ have suffered a humiliating legal defeat in the High Court in their attempts to force the Government to hold a “Mueller-style inquiry” into the EU referendum. The ‘Fair Vote Project’ was essentially set up as a front group for the so-called Brexit whistleblowers with the backing of the cranks at Byline and ultra-Remainers Best for Britain – the sole director, Kyle Taylor, was previously Field Campaigns Director for Best for Britain.


23 Jan 19 - 09:25 AM (#3973066)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin

Arts Council factsheet on the effect of Brexit on the arts in the UK.

You're fucked.


23 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM (#3973069)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I can’t see any reason why all tax returns aren't publicly accessible, the same way the details of wills are, and the prices at which houses have been sold.
..............................

Those like Theresa May who go on endlessly blaring out about how a fresh referendum would be an affront to democracy and will cause social disruption are in fact acting in a way that must encourage such disruption, by providing justification for it. I rather think that is intentional, pulling in the threat of the mob to intimidate opponents.

Other countries which compare very favourably indeed to the UK when it comes to democratic practices, and a commitment to democratic principles have had second referendum on related issues about the E.U. In the case of Denmark and Ireland the public voted the other way next time, in the case of Norway, they confirmed their decision not to join the EU.

Nobody knows what the majority view in the UK is now. If we think that matters, a referendum at least provides a mechanism for finding that out.


23 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM (#3973077)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

After exploring the links within links in Jack's post below...
All you folks will probably be referred to 150 different websites to stay abreast of the new rules and the conflicting rules that you will still be subject to.

Better keep your smart phones charged if you even want to travel or buy bread and water.


23 Jan 19 - 10:50 AM (#3973080)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'm encouraged to see the self control shown so far in this thread. It's quite easy really, isn't it?


23 Jan 19 - 10:58 AM (#3973083)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Now you've been and went and gone and done it! :-) :-)


23 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM (#3973086)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu

Gentlemen! gentlemen! -- and everyone else as well --

it's hugely entertaining for a USA ignoramus like me
to watch you working through all of this.

I was unaware that anyone had called some of you 'bastards.'
Not even Max, to my knowledge, called you that,
and at one point he was genuinely upset with you.

The phrase I heard from a moderator was
"sour testosterone."
Hmmm ... wonder if a UK moderator would make a difference?

Okay, I'll go back to keeping my head down, and listening.


23 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM (#3973103)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

keberoxu. Hilarious. More posts please!

Meanwhile back at the ranch:

Interesting polling by Number Cruncher Politics which asked voters to choose their least acceptable Brexit outcomes rather than just their favourites. The study reveals that remaining in the EU is the least acceptable Brexit outcome to the British electorate,

Another wily ruse is to suspend Parliament. That'll fix em!


23 Jan 19 - 12:26 PM (#3973105)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances. Please don't ask for any more.


23 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM (#3973108)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Apparently Rees-Mogg has said it would be "a constitutional outrage" if the moves by Cooper et al end up with Parliament deciding it should block Brexit. To prevent this he raises the idea of proroguing Parliament if that outcome appears likely.

The whole rationale of Parliament is to agree on solution to problems like our current mess. If it looks likely to do so and then action is taken to shut it down to prevent it doing do - well, I know which looks a bigger constitutional outrage to me.


23 Jan 19 - 01:02 PM (#3973113)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'm not sure if it's different across the Atlantic, but here "bastards" isn't really particularly strong. Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke".


23 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM (#3973121)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke""
Suggest you look in your PM box Mac
Jim


23 Jan 19 - 01:55 PM (#3973126)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances.
pack it in shaw. you are gettingh boring.


23 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM (#3973130)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

that would be a great advertising line

Fishermans Friends....not strong as fuck! But stronger than buggers!


23 Jan 19 - 02:13 PM (#3973132)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu

Big Al,
I shudder to think
what the Mudcat would be like, without you.


23 Jan 19 - 02:40 PM (#3973142)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

If we were in Oz I suppose we'd have taken it as a backslapping term of endearment, as in "G'day, how's it all going, you old bastard!" Let's move on...

I note with amusement the lack of irony in May's claim that a second referendum would threaten social cohesion. Yeah, right, Treez, like the wrecking of social cohesion caused by your pointless ten years' austerity, your permanent Tory us-and-them syndrome, your million on zero-hours, your all-in-it-together lie of the century, your hostile environment, Windrush, Grenfell, your foodbanks... You ain't seen nuffink yet, Treez, things such as the loss of social cohesion that would result from millions thrown out of work by brexit or by the hard border that you're courting with by refusing to take no-deal off the table. A second referendum, in contrast to all that, would be a thoroughly democratic move. I'm not sure that I think it's the right answer to all this, but then democracy should never simply be in the hands of those who think it might turn against them. Should it, brexiteers?


23 Jan 19 - 02:57 PM (#3973145)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Old cricket joke.

Which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?


23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM (#3973151)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Hey, Dave, that was no joke - it really happened! It was in the "Bodyline" Ashes series of 1932. The England captain was Douglas Jardine, the architect of the bodyline bowling strategy. In other words the biggest bastard among bastards* ever to disgrace a cricket field. He went to the Aussie dressing room to complain that one of the Aussie team had called him a bastard. Vic Richardson, the Aussie vice-captain, turned to his teammates in the room and said: "OK, which of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?"

*Unless Jacob Rees-Mogg has ever played cricket...


23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM (#3973152)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Could everyone stick to the subject of the thread please, and ignore attempts to divert attention to other topics, and provoke a reaction to them?


23 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM (#3973153)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou

I saw a photo of the Queen and Theresa May today. It was obviously taken at one of the weekly audiences, and some wag had put a speech bubble above the queen's head saying, "Well, you've made a terrible mess of it all haven't you? Would you like me to get Philip to drive you home?"


23 Jan 19 - 04:15 PM (#3973155)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos

It was in a link in this thread, Eliza, posted by Bobad early on.


23 Jan 19 - 04:22 PM (#3973158)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou

Gah! So it was! I get more senile every day! Sorry about that Bobad.


23 Jan 19 - 05:39 PM (#3973167)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Just received a copy of "Wetherspoons news" in my letterbox. Packed full of stuff about how wonderful a no deal Brexit will be. The owner of Wetherspoons is really obsessed with Brexit - branching out from just plugging it in the pubs.

I've got a friend who's sworn off going to Wetherspoons, and is a bit shocked I won't. But I can't see boycotting makes much sense in this case.


23 Jan 19 - 07:50 PM (#3973177)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Surely the Tory definition of cohesion is everybody consenting without question to their subjugation.


23 Jan 19 - 08:35 PM (#3973180)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

Since my posts are educational and everybody loves them, I'm going to repeat my post to Mudcat Brexit 2 which was the last post before shutdown:

There's a pretty good National Public Radio Program called On the Media. Saturday I heard their presentation: "Why Brexit Shouldn't Have Been a Surprise"

It was good, particularly in explaining UK business to American ears. I especially appreciated the commentary by Matthew Goodwin, professor of politics and international relations at the University of Kent and author of National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy. He had a strong opinion that another referendum would be a bad idea.

I'm not so sure. It might not be a good idea, but it might be the best way out of the morass if it leads to a path forward.

There's a lot of reasons Democracy ain't lookin' so hot these days, but I'll argue considerably that nothing very much looks very good these days, and Democracy is still the best thing out there, compared to all the others, the kleptocracy that is modern Russia, the abject failure of whatever Venezuela called its shoddy form of government, the poor democractic selections on the part of the voters of the Philippines, Hungary, Poland, and Turkey. The digital/capitalist oligarchy/dictatorship running China, and the religiously intolerant regimes in India and Burma(Myanmar).

For relaxation I've been reading the Wikipedia entry on The European Union and the early reading part of it is so idealistic, harking back to days when Victor Hugo in previous centry and later Winston Churchill called for a "United States of Europe". Less relaxing is the recent Brexit movie full of current day fakenews digital realpolitick (although Benedict Cumberbatch is a national treasure).


23 Jan 19 - 09:10 PM (#3973182)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks.


23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM (#3973185)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.


24 Jan 19 - 01:46 AM (#3973187)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks."


I second all of that, Steve.


24 Jan 19 - 01:55 AM (#3973188)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away. It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that.


24 Jan 19 - 02:43 AM (#3973191)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away"
Pity - soundbites no longer sum up this catastrophe
pent some time yesterday enquiring about becoming an Irish national as the monster that is Brexit is threatening to lose us some of the privileges of living here if little England goes it alone
Some people really seem not to have got their head around the effect on other countries - never a high priority of the British establishment
We already have signs of a return to violence (from both sides)
NICELY SUMMED UP HERE
In the North and counties like Donegal are benefiting from the misfortuns of the Sic Counties - great for Donegal - not so great for relationships and peace
It seems that predictions of the break-up the UK is now becoming a reality
I've always welcomed the idea of a United Ireland, but not this way - please

"Wetherspoons"
Stopped drinking their piss when they stopped serving Travellers
Jim


24 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM (#3973193)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

It was one pub in North London, Jim. Tarring the whole chain because of the actions of one manager, who has now been "re-educated", is akin to, well, tarring a whole group of people with the actions of a few :-)


24 Jan 19 - 03:45 AM (#3973195)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Since i was obliged to be 'on the wagon' in 2005, pubs are of zero interest to me other than as sources of nourishment and opportunities to belt a few tunes and songs out.

But when I did indulge in alcohol, there was (still is) a lovely, welcoming, and well-patronised little pub round the corner from our local Wetherspoons, which specialises in traditional ales and beers - mostly from small, independent breweries, properly kept by a skilled and knowledgeable owner, and served properly by the owner and his experienced staff. Why on earth would I want to go to a soulless chain-owned barn selling crap beer, where they need bouncers on the door to keep an eye on the hordes of young people who go there to guzzle lager and shout at one another?

And if I want food, instead of Wetherspoons' microwave shite, I go to one of several locally-owned cafés or restaurants and have real food, properly cooked and presented in nice surroundings.

As far as I'm concerned, that dick can take his crappy Wetherspoons and shove it.


24 Jan 19 - 03:48 AM (#3973196)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"who has now been "re-educated""
Fined, you mean
It was a joke Dave - never really liked Weatherspoons anyway - the nearest to us in London was right opposite Young's Brewery - the finest in the world until progress (pronounced "PISS") drove it out of business
Sorry lads - mustn't interrupt the flow - quite an apt phrase, don'cha think
Jim


24 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM (#3973198)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I think with a company fine of £24,000 the manager was probably 're-educated' right out of the door :-) I

I must go in different Weatherspoons. All the ones I have been in have been fine with a good range of beer and food. But, yes, nowt to do with Brexit really so I shall leave it at that.


24 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM (#3973206)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Dyson moving HQ to Singapore.

To put that in some kind of perspective: (from June 2016)

https://janetteheffernan.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-list-of-uk-companies-no-longer.html


24 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM (#3973217)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

"It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that."

Excellent point, DMcG. If we allow unelected mega-companies to rule the roost (as well as unelected, powerful lobby groups) we can kiss democracy goodbye, and individual little countries, far from wanting to regulate the corporations, will bend over backwards to cut their tax liabilities to get them in. Not saying that the EU can make much of a fist of it, as you say...


24 Jan 19 - 06:44 AM (#3973223)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it. The first duty of a company is to look after the shareholders, i.e.maximize profit. Morality,charity and national allegiance is no part of the equation. Others explain it thus:
"Contrary to widespread belief, corporate directors are generally not under any legal obligation to maximise profits for their shareholders. Where directors pursue the latter goal, it is usually a product not of legal obligation but rather of the pressures imposed on them by financial markets, activist shareholders, the threat of a hostile takeover and/or stock-based compensation schemes."

https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2016/11/modern-corporation-statement-company-law

I am sure it requires no explanation as to why a company may up sticks and relocate to a lower cost base, or a more amenable legislatory environment. It goes without saying that many eastern europeans welcomed the employment opportunities that came there way as a result of the above.
As I demonstrated in a previous link it is EU largesse that encouraged many relocations. To state that the poacher also becomes the gamekeeper seems a particularly bizarre socialist solution that inevitably will crash and burn.


24 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM (#3973224)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Brittany Ferries have moved to slap down Remainer scaremongering about international travel beyond March, and reassure passenmgers. The iconic ferry company accused the BBC of peddling “nonsense” and reassured potential passengers that they can book beyond March.

    “The company would like to make clear that passengers can book crossings to France and Spain, and sail-and-stay holidays as normal. There is absolutely no truth in speculation that passengers are being advised not to book because all space has been allocated to freight.

    The reality is that Brittany Ferries has added 19 crossings on three of its nine routes leaving the UK. The additional sailings create more space for freight, as requested by the DfT. As a consequence, there is now more choice for passengers rather than less.”

Maybe it’s time for the BBC to start listening to the experts?"
(From Guido, of course!)


24 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM (#3973228)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

Well the free movement of capital was largely welcomed, as I remember. It was a necessary adjunct to living in the EEC.

It must be a big temptation to rich people not pay any tax though, wouldn't you think.

I'm not really sure you will eventually sustain a stable society though, if no one invests in anything except real estate.

Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.


24 Jan 19 - 07:50 AM (#3973235)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it.


Perhaps, but that raises the question of what is inadequate and why is it inadequate. From a business point of view, a law is not so much a question of "do/don't do this or suffer the penalty" so much as "if we do it and incur the penalty, do we still make a profit?" As example of that was Sunday trading - a number of the big supermarkets openly flouted the law because they thought that the most profitable in the long run. (I am not taking about whether Sunday trading is or is not a good thing - just how companies will ignore the law if the cost-benefit suits them)

Part of the reason they could do this was that they could cross-subsidize penalties from profits on other days, and in the end the law was changed to allow them to trade very much as they wished.

My claim is that any national law will be inadequate - either the company will ignore the law(*) if it is profitable to do so, or they will decide it is not worth trading in a country whose laws make it non-profitable. The only way to overcome this is to the set laws at a higher level than a national law, and have mechanisms that allow the countries in such alliances to reach agreements with each other that can be enforced.

(*) Because even the boards of companies are people, there are still laws they will abide by with little questioning, of course. But the principle that laws are treated as cost-benefit analyses than instructions is, I believe, a consequence of the stuff Iains was saying.

-----

Big Al: I, for one, do not think I have everything worked out - it is all a work-in-progress from my point of view. I have said before, and repeat again here, I would love to be completely wrong about the consequences of Brexit.


24 Jan 19 - 08:03 AM (#3973236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.

The minds of ideologues countenance no doubt, see religious fundamentalists.


24 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM (#3973244)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

It is not a question of being right or wrong, or even ideology. It is more a study of the facts and their rational interpretation. All other factors being equal a company/corporation/organisation will locate where cost/benefit dictates. A case in point: Ireland
"Ireland was placed 11th out of 82 countries as one of the most attractive business locations in the world in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s (EIU) Business Environment Ranking for 2008-2012.

Experts say that Ireland is attractive because it has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the world at 12.5 per cent"

https://www.eolasmagazine.ie/what-attracts-companies-to-ireland/

First they say this:https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/tags/corporate-tax_en

Then they sat this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-in-fresh-warning-on-irish-corporation-tax-base-1.3690699
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ireland-needs-to-upset-the-apple-cart-on-corporate-tax-1.3674289

So much for member state fiscal independence!


24 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM (#3973246)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.
A sensible post at last


24 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM (#3973257)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"The EU’s long-running duplicity over the Irish border has finally come to a head this week with the Commission wrapping itself up in knots trying to maintain its spurious position on the backstop. After Commission Spokesman Margaritas Schinas caused a major fuss on Tuesday by saying that the EU would force Ireland to erect a hard border in the event of no deal, Michel Barnier let the cat out of the bag yesterday while trying to reverse the diplomatic damage, admitting that in the event of no deal “we will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border”, going on to say that “my team have worked hard to study how controls can be made paperless or decentralised, which will be useful in all circumstances.” Thus blowing apart the entire fiction that the backstop is necessary to avoid a hard border…

The Telegraph’s James Crisp grilled Schinas on this very point today, who ended up so flustered by the question that he eventually snapped back: “write what you like”. The sham of needing the backstop to avoid a hard border is finally starting to unravel in Brussels. Time the sycophantic British media and political establishment woke up too…"


24 Jan 19 - 09:41 AM (#3973258)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Because a number of factors affect choices of where corporations locate, there comes a tipping point which fianally determine these decisions as it is not a simple as moving to the office next door, and it seems that a lot of tipping points have been reached in the last few months as no business is going to base strategic decisions on what may or may not happen and quite rightly up sticks to where there is more certainty about the future.


24 Jan 19 - 09:48 AM (#3973262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

When you use a phrase like 'long running duplicity' Iains, its a sort of claim for moral high ground.

isn't this why Mo Mowlem succeded where the Thatcherites failed in NI?

Thatcher categorised her enemies as criminals. Mowlem tried to treat the separate parties at their own assessment of themselves - as men of honour.

I think until all sides grasp this basic tennet of diplomacy, the news is going to be kind of predictable.


24 Jan 19 - 10:01 AM (#3973265)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: MikeL2

Hi Al

Beautifully put. " Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt. "


24 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM (#3973266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Big Al the EU has used the Irish border as a means to bully the brexit negotiations from day one. The EU picked on the border because they knew that making an issue of it could possibly inflame old wounds.Calling their behaviour duplicitous is a very mild rebuke.It is nor moral high ground.It is a simple statement of fact. To choose the one single item that could cause dissent,and to belabour it constantly indicates to me the weakness of their position. Making the border a stumbling block will hurt the Republic far far harder than the UK, as many realists acknowledge. A shame the political class are not as clued up.


24 Jan 19 - 10:20 AM (#3973270)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

If the EU wanted to bully the UK it could do so much more effectively. The EU has in fact shown amazing forbearance, given the self-entitled, intransigent, an at times demented behaviour of the UK government and the far right of the Conservative party who seem to have May in their pockets. The EU is aware that there are decent British people, but sad that they are not the ones coming to Brussels on behalf of the government. So they are trying to soften the outcome for the British people.

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.


24 Jan 19 - 10:23 AM (#3973271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

A little old but fell by the wayside because of squawking abbot.
Question time and the roar of applause:


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/the-cheer-on-question-time-that-will-terrify-corbyns-labour/


and for light relief: Steptoe seniors theme song


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRjFWDGs1g


24 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM (#3973278)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

If Brussels oaid for my air fare and accommodation eytc I would talk to them tomorrow, and come up with a deal that follows the letter of the referendum result, ie withdrawal of the UK government and UK MEPs from the democratic decision making process, nothing else. My agreement would guarantee UK would follow the rules of the single market and customs union (while enjoying the benefits) until a further referendum held in the UK dictates otherwise. I would ensure that disadvantaged people in the UK continue to benefit from structural funding. I would also guarantee that UK legislation would follow or exceed expectations of EU cohension, social, international aid, environmental policies etc.I would have a no-strings re-entry agreement if at some time in the future UK decoides that it wants a say on the policies it has to follow after all. The negotiations wouldn't be about winning and losing, but what is in the best interest of UK and EU27 citizens. Unfortunately EU do not want to talk to decent intellegent people, but to self-serving idiots like May, Davis, Raab etc.


24 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM (#3973300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

'If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.'

Well maybe they should. my parents lived through a time when they did just that.

You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.


24 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM (#3973305)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman



And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.


24 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM (#3973308)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.


24 Jan 19 - 12:07 PM (#3973311)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

Well, yes, but with a near 100% agreement on the enemy, and doing so to resist what an enemy was attempting to achieve. That is somewhat different to the situation where some-48% of the population think it is being inflicted on them by the other some-52% against all their best interests...


You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.


And there is a price to be paid if you generate ill-will in your neighbours.   It will not make trade deals easier to arrange if the UK appears to be incoherent.


24 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM (#3973313)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

I do wish some people would stop fighting Againcourt all over again
The EU is a gathering of capitalist nations working together to make the best of a dying society - no great future, but a better one than that based on the Xenophobic isolationism that is Brexit
I'm curious Al, given the likely outcome, what practical advantages do you see in leaving Europe ?
HOPE YOU WEREN'T PLANNING ANY FOREIGN GIGS
Jim


24 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM (#3973320)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome. I remember various bombings in England from my younger days.


24 Jan 19 - 12:54 PM (#3973321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.
Electricity imports fromFrance and the netherlands equals 1% of UK fuel imports
Oil(entrepôt product) from Netherlands 10% mainly refined as a result of closure of Milford Haven and Coryton refineries.
Coal less than 10% from EU
Gas 7% from EU


24 Jan 19 - 01:01 PM (#3973324)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Food was the first item in that list.


24 Jan 19 - 02:10 PM (#3973336)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

So how does the gas get to the UK?


24 Jan 19 - 02:16 PM (#3973338)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

mainly Norway and shipped from quatar and still some from the north sea


24 Jan 19 - 02:18 PM (#3973339)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Try Qatar. I should know how to spell, i have been there enough times geosteering for said gas.


24 Jan 19 - 02:51 PM (#3973340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

I'm not sure how forest-for-the-trees we are getting. There are certainly many many interstitial items that fall out when this frictional divorce is underway. There is no way to see how the little pieces help or hurt.

The big hurt is the forced lack of connection in a very connected world.

European Union as noted in the Wikipedia article I referenced above is on the verge of being a Superpower. This is good in an age with another verging power, China, an errant Superpower, the US, and a would be power that is a big fat troublemaker, Russia, and who knows where India's going.

The other thing I can't get out of my mind is the not-so-secret but everywhere power that was brought to the EU by English itself. How could the UK give up its continued quiet conquest of the world by its very language? I know I know that there are other languages in the UK, but the Celtic contribution and occasional dominance in the UK has been through facility in the Engllish language. The United States is probably composed of 80% of people descended from non-English speakers, Canada somewhat less, but English is one of the world glues and a powerful advantage. Taking this away from the EU is a travesty.


24 Jan 19 - 03:02 PM (#3973344)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome"
I do wish people wouldn't do this - the problem is the unnatural and enforced border, not the Irishmen
Think the Home Bounties being partitioned off from the rest of Britain - that should give a feel of what things are about here
Jim Carroll


24 Jan 19 - 03:12 PM (#3973347)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Approx 36% of energy used in the UK is imported.

Source UK Energy in Brief 2018, assetspublishingservice.gov.uk


24 Jan 19 - 03:45 PM (#3973349)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos

"Think the Home Bounties [I take it the 'B' another of your jokes] being partitioned off from the rest of Britain"

Where I live, the vote was more than 60% for remain - maybe we can be partitioned off and stay in the EU?


24 Jan 19 - 03:59 PM (#3973350)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"...when they did just that"

"They" evidently being a word for all our fellow Europeans, to be identified with the Nazi regime in Germany.

I imagine we're going to get a lot of that if we are lumbered with a no deal exit. The people responsible will do their utmost to divert the blame for the unpleasant consequences from themselves on to those nasty foreigners.


24 Jan 19 - 04:26 PM (#3973355)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957.[2] Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC). In 2009 the EC's institutions were absorbed into the EU's wider framework and the community ceased to exist.

The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union, among its six founding members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany. It gained a common set of institutions along with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) as one of the European Communities under the 1965 Merger Treaty (Treaty of Brussels). In 1993, a complete single market was achieved, known as the internal market, which allowed for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people within the EEC. In 1994, the internal market was formalised by the EEA agreement. This agreement also extended the internal market to include most of the member states of the European Free Trade Association, forming the European Economic Area covering 15 countries.

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy. This was also when the three European Communities, including the EC, were collectively made to constitute the first of the three pillars of the European Union, which the treaty also founded. The EC existed in this form until it was abolished by the 2009 Treaty of Lisbon, which incorporated the EC's institutions into the EU's wider framework and provided that the EU would "replace and succeed the European Community"


24 Jan 19 - 06:15 PM (#3973362)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

@ Iain
“To choose the one single item that could cause dissent” is what everybody should have done from the start ,Iain . if you are driving a well looking for oil and find that there is a huge block that will break all drill bits known to man , you would , as an engineer ,proceed from that knowledge surely - whatever the quantities of black gold beneath the impregnable rock ?
@ KarenH .
You think that the murderous Irish are being stubborn . You’re entitled to your prejudices , Karen ,but you should have really thought about the stubborn, savage Irish before you embarked on your stupid referendum course in 2016 . You are a Remainer and would probably think that, unlike the savage Irish , British people shouldn’t all be tarred with the same Brexit brush .But remember that David Cameron who called the referendum is also a Remainer.


24 Jan 19 - 06:36 PM (#3973365)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

@Maymick
and your point is:)


24 Jan 19 - 06:55 PM (#3973370)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

My point is that is was your referendum , not Ireland's but Ireland has to put up with the consequences.British nationalists can only think about what is best for Britain and not about the effect their policies have on other countries .


24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM (#3973379)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Another terrible Question Time. Fiona Bruce gave free rein on brexit to the ghastly and garrulous Tory woman, even allowing her to make an extensive interruption after she'd told her to shut up. To add insult to injury, the camera repeatedly sought out the sneering Tory woman at every opportunity as other panellists were speaking. In contrast, Bruce gave the other panellists much less time and made frequent interruptions. Half way through the show she made an extremely mumbled ten-second "correction" to her utter balls-up in last week's programme, and it was very noticeable that she didn't even refer to Diane by name. Blink and you'd have missed it. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience, though, as ever, there were occasional diamonds embedded in the crock of shite. A terrible advert for democracy. I reckon it's time for a radical rethink on this show. I'd like to see a far smaller audience for a start. In other words, Grr. And thank God I had Highland Park to hand. End of rant due to gradual mellowing.


24 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM (#3973381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

Steve the result was in part the work of Murdoch , yet you persist in financing him through sky box just tp watch football at least jim watches shakespeare, what do you expect


24 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM (#3973383)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I expect that I'll be ignoring you until you turn the bloody record over.


24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM (#3973385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I've never had a Sky Box by the way, and don't know what one is.


24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM (#3973388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island.

We need a planned approach to the seas around us. I just don't think the continued fishing by factory ships and even the big English fishing boats is sustainable.

Similarly I think we need to take charge of the wealth in the country, and subsidise the building of modern factories.

The EU law wouldn't allow the land grab this would involve. Then they wouldn't allow the subsidies.

I'm an old style socialist. I believe in a planned economy. Preferably planned by the English government. We need to get into government - unconstrained by Brussels,

In answer to Backwoodsman's point. Yes of course I have doubts. But I honestly believe we're in trouble if we don't change direction. The Blair government was heartbreaking for guys like me. After 18 years of tory intransigence and double-dealing. If we had reorganised then, we wouldn't be in this mess. Held to ransom by a tiny enclave in a highly unpopular government.


24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM (#3973391)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

As I've said God knows how many times, Al, the amount we pay into the EU is around one percent of our GDP. We get some of that back in farm subsidies and regional development grants (Cornwall, where I live, has had half a billion). True, we are net contributors. Our money goes into stabilising countries with weaker economies, helping to maintain their democracy. One percent of our GDP, to help maintain peace and stability in what has been a volatile continent since the dawn of time. But you gib at that? Al, did you actually KNOW how little of our money is tied up with the EU, you know, the stuff you agitate to "take back control" of? Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap? Tell you what, Al. Once we leave we'll be under the control of massive trading blocs who are in no hurry to give us any deals (not a single one so far, despite Liam Fox promising us forty by now). Enjoy your new-found non-freedoms and your new-found non-opportunities!


24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM (#3973394)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

its not the point, Steve. The point is that after the war, we decided we wanted full employment.,,after alll the shit people went through in rhe 1930's.

Our industries weren't the most efficient in the world, but by subsidising them - we avoided having beggars on the street, a hard drugs problem, and all the other social ills that are commonplace in tough capitalist economies like the US.

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.

Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.

THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.

In Sutton in Ashfield, Notts. They have lost mining, mining equipment manufacture, textiles,   ceramics. The Eu has compensated them with an ornamental sundial. Go figure....


24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM (#3973395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The EU was not responsible for those losses and you know it, Al.

Thing is, Al, we have been sold a big lie about the EU ever since the time of Wedgie Benn and Michael Foot (both blokes I admired in most other regards), not to speak of a litany of Tory eurosceptics. People like them ensured via their oft-misleading propaganda that we believed Europe was under the undemocratic control of Brussels bureaucrats, which was never even remotely true. All EU decisions, whether or not suggested by the Commission, are either agreed to by common consensus among 28 sovereign nations, put to the vote in the European Parliament, or vetoed. And of course the EU is protectionist. Tell me one major trading bloc that isn't. Yet you're happy for us to ditch the sort-of-protectionist EU in favour of the uber-protectionist US and China. I mean, wassup, Al!


24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM (#3973396)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

A lot of people in the UK seem to be still fighting the last two world wars , only with the EU taking the place of Germany .As with Big Al’s post above :
“The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.”


24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM (#3973397)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well I suppose that's a better way of fighting a world war than the previous two. I've been to several EU countries for my hols and I love them. I find people there with the same hopes, aspirations, McDonalds and M&S as we have in the UK. I don't see dark animosity or plots to get us or desires to screw the UK. I feel quite European, actually. I want to go there as often as I can, as I love their summer warmth, their lovely grub, their friendly people and especially their gelati, and I want them to come here if they want. I've never been called up to fight Europeans, neither has my son. That's cracking good stuff is that. I'm off to bed now. Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning...


25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM (#3973406)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

if you do not knowwhat a sky box is ask Jim, in the meantime you are still supporting rupert murdoch , which is imo hypocritical, you gave the impression in an earlier post that you paid for sky television just to watch a soccer match , bloddy pathetic


25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM (#3973408)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

No , I don't know it.

Of course I have doubts when virtually every MP with an IQ above room temperature disagrees with me.

But I don't really see anyone actually countering my arguments. They just abuse them and me. And I remember the ten solid miles of steel factories outside Sheffield, I used to drive past on the way to gigs. And all the textile factories, where my father in law worked as a knitter and trimmer, round where I lived - making excellent goods like Viyella Shirts, and the skills that have been lost. And I see marks and Spencer shutting down stores everywhere cos they can't sell the cheap[ foreign made goods on their shelves at High Street prices. They offer Cotton Trader products at High Street prices.

And I think we've got it wrong and membership of the EU is part of the problem.

And I don't think we'll set it right til we're quit of them, and our MP's are answerable to US and not Brussels appointees, who keep our representatives of every party waiting and buggering about. And that is my sincere belief.


25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM (#3973411)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island."
So a Britain tied to Ecological vandal Trump is more likly to save the planet than being part of a group that is, at least, paying lip-service to co-operation and control - give us a break Al
We USED to be an island 0 one that controlled a large proportion of the world, but now we are totally reliant on others - we have no industries to speak of and no plans to develop any so on the one hand, we rely on cheaply produced goods manufactured in apalling conditions, from textiles to computers, while at the same time building walls to keep the people who make the goods we buy out
We fished the oceans empty before the days of Sam Larner so there is no chance of reviving our fishing industry, so instead of staying within a group where there is a chance of making the best of what's left cast ourselves adrift - crazy argument
Britain is totally incapable of "going it alone" for al the flag-wagging - it doesn't even have a united people or a Government capable of holding a whist drive, never mind leading a country
That is the referendum's legacy, and it hasn't even begun to bite yet
Jim   
If


25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM (#3973413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

TRY THIS FOR SIZE AL
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM (#3973415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning..."
Probably same as me - because the pubs are closed (:-)
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM (#3973417)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning
I read it when I woke at about 5:50am. We nearly have 24h coverage of the thread.


25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM (#3973419)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

You don't need a Sky box to watch Sky, Dick.

Do you use petro chemicals? Eat food? Wear clothes? Each one of those industries is culpable in any number of human rights abuses yet you witter on about someone watching football on Sky. I know where the epithets pathetic and hypocritical should really be applied.


25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM (#3973421)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

of course we can revive our seas. We must.


25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM (#3973423)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM
Another terrible Question Time. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience.

Freedom of Information request – RF20101013

"I would like to be supplied with the selection criteria the BBC use when it comes to deciding who to
select from among the many applicants to participate in the 'Question Time' audience."
Please note that your request is outside the scope of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“ the Act”) but we are happy to explain that the programme ensures that there is due balance between the main political parties, as well as minor parties and unaligned voters in the audience.
We hope you find this helpful.

Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap?
Sovereignty is the word you mean!
Note:
control: the power to influence or direct people's behaviour or the course of events.
sovereignty: supreme power or authority. "the sovereignty of Parliament"
    synonyms:        jurisdiction, supremacy, dominion, power, ascendancy, suzerainty, tyranny, hegemony, domination, sway, predominance, authority, control, influence, rule, freedom

It should not be necessary to point out these vital distinctions! It was to escape external control and a re-assert sovereignty that the referendum was predicated upon.


25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM (#3973424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

I'm not saying that your article is wrong about the way things are. I'm saying -its not the way it should be. We need to rip up everything that's gone before and get marine biologists to work out a way forward that is sustainable and good for the future.

We owe it to future generations to make our seas healthy. I won't say again - past generations didn't really have the global vision that is so natural to us now.


25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM (#3973425)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.
Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.


Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.
Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!


25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM (#3973428)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"of course we can revive our seas. We must."
Don't you think it strange that, despite the fact that Britain's fishing indistrt==y has been in steady decline for decades yet no Government, inside or out of Europe, has lifted a finger to help it ?
It has only surfaced now as an academic political ploy
The most likely scenario on the table now is that Britain will sacrifice the fishing rights to Europe in a deal benefiting other aspects of the economy
Britain's fishing will still remain in the hands of Europe, the only difference being that we will no longer have a say in it
Even if Britain crashes out of Europe, fishing will be way down the list of priorities, allowing the industry just to fade away completely
Crazy Al, crazy
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM (#3973430)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.

Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school."


https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!"


Could you explain all that to Big Al please, Iains? He seems to be under the mistaken impression they were destroyed by the EU, despite repeated explanations to the contrary by those of us whose memories are still in full working condition.


25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM (#3973434)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."

The other way of putting that, Al, is that other countries used the flexibility built into the rules more intelligently than the UK, in such a way as to avoid unnecessary damage to their industries. The EU doesn’t have "their own industries". EU members do. And they didn't choose to elect a Margaret Thatcher and give her a licence to kill.

Blaming other people for our own cock-ups is very much the flavour of the times it seems. The same is done in the case of freedom of movement as interpreted by the UK government in a way that exploits both immigrants and natives in the interest of predatory employers.

And a pedantic point. "We are after all an island". No we aren't. England is not an island, nor is the UK. Great Britain is an island, but it has never been a country except between 1703 and 1801.


25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM (#3973439)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

""The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."
A strange indication that Britain has never regarded herself as part of Europe
Protectionism of their own industries surely includes British industries, which was what we agreed to when we signed up
When/if we leave, that "protectionism" will remain and be to the disadvantage of Britain - all Britain will do is remove its right to have a say in it (as with the fishing industry)
Crazier and crazier
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM (#3973440)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Backwoodsman. The legacy of Thatcher was that she recognised the decline of UK industry and introduced de regulation and encouraged globalism as a counter.

How much of her policies led to pluses and minuses in society can be argued for ever. These changes impacted the entire world and the jack will not go back in the box.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-reagan-thatcher-revolution/a-16732731

https://www.ft.com/content/8f41da48-a05f-11e2-a6e1-00144feabdc0

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-impact-legacy-development

The real problem, well demonstrated by the referendum, is that there is a basic dichotomy between globalisation of trade by ever growing multinationals and retention of national identity and sovereignty. The overarching reality of the EU becoming a political union does nothing to combat the ever growing power of multinationals. Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day. This is well demonstrated by our present crop of mps. 500 voted for article 50. Who paid them to change their minds?


25 Jan 19 - 07:52 AM (#3973446)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day."

I completely agree. Yet you Brexshiteers voted to remove the checks, balances and controls of the EU over the behaviour of the tiny, immensely wealthy, powerful cadre who, in order to further their own interests and increase their wealth and power, have driven the BrexShit process from the dark shadows, and to hand absolute power to them, no matter what damage it causes to the lives of the people.


25 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM (#3973447)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

The regulations killed our industries. Thatcher used them to take political power from the trades unions.

Saying that the regulations weren't to blame is a bit like the 'guns don't kill people ' shit. We all know if the guns aren't available people don't get killed in quite so many numbers. or maybe you disagree with that.

I saw it happen. I saw it was going to happen. I watched it happen as predicted.

You don't have to agree with me. You're free to tell me I'm an asshole for thinking as I do. many do.

But I 'm not going to take sides with the iceberg.


25 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM (#3973449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Other countries didn't exploit the regulations self destructively. A better analogy than guns here is cars. Cars driven sensibly are useful. There are some people who shouldn’t be allowed behind a wheel. Margaret Thatcher was someone who shouldn't have been trusted in charge of a country, and you can't blame the EU for that.
................


Here is an entertaining spin on the Brexit debacle


25 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM (#3973452)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Dunno if that was for me, Al, or someone else? All I'll say is that you know my views on The Beast of Grantham very well, I've made them very plain on many occasions - she was the worst thing that's ever happened to this country in peacetime.

The point I was making in my comment to Iains 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM, was that, despite being told that British industry, fishing, etc. was buggered before we joined the Common Market (i.e. 'long before marvellous Maggie even started secondary school'), you continue to blame the EU for their demise.

I simply hoped that hearing it from a fellow Brexshitter, you might start to believe it.


25 Jan 19 - 08:27 AM (#3973453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Big Al the world was changing prior to Thatcher. If you study the aircraft industry it was a world leader immediately postwar and into the fifties. Both political parties destroyed the aircraft industry ably assisted by management of the numerous aircraft companies. The reluctance to modernise and integrate was not restricted to the aircraft industry. The unions are a separate issue- governments rule countries not unions,( or cadres trying to redefine british democracy, as now). Thatcher created big bang and as a result the service sector exploded while traditional industries declined due to poor management, union activists, lack of investment and more importantly global competition. How you wish to explain it depends on perspective. The textile industry grew on the colonial market, now many of those markets manufacture and export. They also have the competitive advantage.
The industrial revolution started in the UK but on down the line others learn from our mistakes and did not have obsolescence to deal with. America also soon caught up and overtook the UK in innovation. The US industry for small arms was the first to perfect mass production techniques.


25 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM (#3973454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"The regulations killed our industries. "
Utter nonsense - I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment, her motive, to smash the unions, the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry   
We in the North of England watched this happen before our eyes because we were the worst effected
Where did "regulations" come into any of this - most of it was deliberate because it was more profitable to buy foreign
You seem to be floundering around to find reasons to blame Europe
I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so
https://www.ippr.org/blog/if-you-think-brexit-is-going-to-be-bad-for-the-economy-just-wait-until-you-see-what-s-in-store-for-us-in-2020
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 08:33 AM (#3973456)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Just watched a number of interviews with Irish politicians of various parties - none of which I support
All have pointed out masterfully that the Border is Briain's chosen problem and it is Britain's job to sort it outinstead of constantly blaming the Irish for not co-operating
I think that goes for the few here who refuse to recognise the seriousness of Ireland's problem
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 08:47 AM (#3973457)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.


25 Jan 19 - 09:07 AM (#3973462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit.


25 Jan 19 - 09:16 AM (#3973463)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I would masterfully point out that Ireland will be directly impacted by brexit. I would also point out thatIntransigence is not a clever negotiating tactic.

I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain

This is called progress.

the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry

Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies.

Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment,

Utter rubbish as you have been told repeatedly on this forum and given the supporting statistics.


25 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM (#3973464)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."


Errrmm....you mean Jeremy Corbyn, surely? ;-)

May's already trying to blame him for the entire debacle, I'm sure the Brexshiteers will be happy to follow her lead...


25 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM (#3973467)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times
Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry - wonderful to see the patriots describing Britain's industrial pride in such patriotic terms - (sorry Dave, we would be neglecting in our duty to let that gem of national pride go un-commented on)
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM (#3973468)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

Main thing is, they'll blame it all on those nasty foreigners who've ganged up against the UK. And of course Remainers who stopped us having a proper Brexitty deal. Always someone else's fault.


25 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM (#3973469)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times


I won't get into whether it is ironic or not because that is a really complicated subject. But what I meant was that whatever sort of Brexit we end up with any problems will be blamed on the fact is was not done in line with the purists and so it will be, as McGrath said, someone else's fault. It will never be seen as a problem inherent in Brexit.


25 Jan 19 - 11:00 AM (#3973475)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"was not done in line with the purists"
This disingenuous nonsense needs to be faced head on
The decision, my a minority of the British people, was agreed with no qualified set of promises - there is still no coherent map of where Britain will go when/if they leave
All this should have been laid before the British people before the vote was taken - instead they were given a magical mystery tour to vote on based largely on controlling the input of foreigners
If the people's opinion meant anything more than a fart in a hurricane to these no-marks, those who did would be given a chance to confirm that their decision remains the same and those who didn't should be allowed to vote on theirs and their childrens' future with the fuller facts at their disposal.
Democracy has only meant anything to them indoors when it can be manipulated to serve the haves and, at the same time, give the impression of being the peoples' will
It's at times like this that I thank the god I don't believe in for proportional representation, which, while not being fuly democrating, at leastt manages to keep some of the sharks at bay
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 11:10 AM (#3973478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Irish troops threatened to the Irish border.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46998533

or according to Guido it is fast becoming a Brian Rix farce



https://order-order.com/2019/01/25/now-varadkar-threatens-put-troops-irish-border/


25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM (#3973479)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I don't think you are getting my point, Jim, but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough. I do not believe in a One True Brexit, but there are those who do.


25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM (#3973480)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry.

Only if the business model indicates success. Otherwise it would be rather silly!

It is only the loony left that thinks finance falls like manna from heaven, off a magical money tree. That is why each time in power their economic policy creates an industrial wasteland of catastrophic proportions.


25 Jan 19 - 11:20 AM (#3973481)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.

Hmm! A gnome, a troll, or a vexatious little goblin?


25 Jan 19 - 11:55 AM (#3973486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough"
I think I do - I was trying to establish whether you were being ironic, which seems to eb the case
My posting wasn't aimed at what you said, which was clear enough - it was my summing up of what I believe needs to be established clearly

Does someone have the emergency number for Rainhill? (understandable only to Liverpudlians over a certain age)
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM (#3973496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I don't like to say I told you so but...

:D tG


25 Jan 19 - 02:04 PM (#3973497)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

There is no dispute, it is a spiteful little goblin trying to get the thread closed.


25 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM (#3973498)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

he embattled People’s Vote campaign are dismayed that Jeremy Corbyn won’t get off the fence and back their second referendum campaign. It’s funny how they’re now begging for his help when they’ve been some of his harshest critics for years:
What a joke!

    Tony Blair in 2016 said Jeremy Corbyn in power would be a “very dangerous experiment”.
    Peter Mandelson in 2017 said “I work every single day in some small way to bring forward the end of his tenure in office. Something, however small it may be – an email, a phone call or a meeting I convene – every day I try to do something to save the Labour party from his leadership.”
    Alastair Campbell in 2015 called on Labour members to vote for “anyone but Corbyn” and said that his election as leader would show that Labour had “given up on being a serious party of government”.
    Chuka Umunna in 2015 said that Corbyn and his “nasty trolls” should be disqualified from office because of their pacifist views.
    Sadiq Khan in 2016 wrote that Labour “cannot win with Corbyn” and said that Corbyn had “proved that he is unable to organise an effective team, and has failed to win the trust and respect of the British people”.
    Tom Baldwin, the People’s Vote’s Director of Communications, wrote in 2016 that “people at every level of our party recognised a responsibility to bring Jeremy Corbyn’s experimental retro-70s leadership to a swift end” and tweeted that “getting rid of Corbyn would be a step in the right direction”.
    Anna Soubry just last week called Corbyn the “most hopeless opposition leader we’ve ever had” .
    Mike Gapes also directly attacked Corbyn just last week, saying “Apparently Corbyn is prepared to hold talks with Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Iran without preconditions. But not with the UK Prime Minister. Why?”
    Chris Leslie in 2015 accused Corbyn of “plucking figures out of the air” and said that his policies would hit the poor the hardest as well as keeping Labour out of power for a decade.
    Sarah Wollaston in 2016 said “Whatever your political views, we all benefit from a competent official opposition; that cannot happen under Corbyn”.


25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM (#3973502)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.


25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM (#3973503)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.


25 Jan 19 - 02:27 PM (#3973504)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I don't like to say I told you so but..."
Don't lie - yes you do, we all do
We wouldn't me human if we didn't
Jim


25 Jan 19 - 02:36 PM (#3973507)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

You are both right :-)

Back to brexit now.

Philip Hammond has now said that "leaving without a deal would cause 'severe damage' to the UK economy".

Common sense from Tory. Wonders will never cease.


25 Jan 19 - 02:46 PM (#3973509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

...All we need to happen now is for May to listen to her chancellor and take no deal off the table. Corbyn will then add some real sense and we can move the whole shambles into a firmer footing.


25 Jan 19 - 03:35 PM (#3973518)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I have a cunning plan... :-) :-)


25 Jan 19 - 03:38 PM (#3973519)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

On the subject of our Troll, if he's posting sensibly and civilly I have no problem interacting with him. Unfortunately, his psychiatric disorder means that he seldom keeps it up for long. Then it's time to ignore him.


25 Jan 19 - 03:55 PM (#3973524)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

No point, John. You know what is coming so just ignore him full stop.


25 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM (#3973526)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I suspect a quite word has been said in his earhole ......

Back to Brexit.

The UK government has been training people to prepare for a disorderly exit from the UK.

A sign of things to come.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.


25 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM (#3973527)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

You have a point Dave. ;-)


25 Jan 19 - 07:29 PM (#3973539)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I strongly suspect that most people in the rest of the EU are crossing their fingers against the possibility that the UK might change its mind and stay in. That's among those who are particularly interested in the whole thing. A silent majority - rather similar to what was revealed in a study that found that a large majority of Tories would be happy to see the back of Scotland and Northern Ireland if that would mean that Brexit went ahead. So much for Theresa May's "our precious union".

Large majorities of English Tory voters would be willing to support Scottish independence (79 percent) or even the undoing of the Northern Ireland peace process (75 percent) as “worth it” to “take back control” from the European Union, new research from the Universities of Edinburgh and Cardiff has suggested.
Reuter’s, October 2018.


25 Jan 19 - 08:19 PM (#3973545)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

This has certainly affected the US economy. It is probably relating to some of the comments that are focused on current economic plights.

Worldwide population is inexorably growing, thus increasing the availability of labor, esp. cheap and very cheap labor.
Technology has enabled the reliable movement of capital.

The above two points have led to what is called globalism.
Uncontrolled it leads to rapid impoverishment of once stable working classes.
With regulation and some discomfort, it can lead to the changes in manufacturing and service industries that most of us have been witness to.
With controls and tariffs and embargoes, many of the inevitable changes can be held off for a time providing false sense of security and temporary job pseudo-stability.

The development of the EU, and such agreements in the West and Asia as NAFTA and the TPP were attempts to acknowledge the inevitable changes to the world economy while minimizing (the over-used fancy work is 'mitigating') the pain of displacement and redundancy. Obama was onto this, but unfortunately Trump made a successful appeal to fear and ignorance. I think the BREXIT affair was parallel only that Europe had its own issues (the bureaucratic rule out of Brussels and the population displacement out of Turkey, Arabia and Africa. What the anti EU and anti-Obama movements had in common was fear (a lot of it understandable) and a certain amount of racism (not accusing everyone of racism, just saying that it doesn't take much to make a difference).

Bottom line: These changes are going to come regardless, and those who can manage to align for them will experience the least pain.


26 Jan 19 - 02:25 AM (#3973557)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Good summary, Robomatic.

Of course both Trump supporters and EU leavers will deny any element of fear, ignorance or racism and I don't believe for one minute that either group have a majority of people displaying those attributes. But, as you say, it doesn't take many to make a difference.

I have just finished re-reading "The Truth" by Terry Pratchett. One of the lines that was resonant with me then is even more so now.

A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.


26 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM (#3973558)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Then it's time to ignore him."
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be now doing, the Mods will have no alliterative Then it's time to ignore him.but to take action against him
Any reacting to or against his indefensible behaviour can only prolong his trolling - as I have been told constantly by a mod "stop feeding the troll- makes sense to me
Jim


26 Jan 19 - 03:12 AM (#3973559)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Spell corrector went haywire there
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be doing the mods will have no alternative but to do something take action against him

Faulty posting should keep hi busy for a while
Jim


26 Jan 19 - 03:50 AM (#3973560)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

"resonant with me then" should have read "resonant with me first time round".


26 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM (#3973569)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So it looks like the most likely amendment to pass on Tuesday is a Tory one to go back and renegotiate the backstop. Meanwhile the EU is clear the price of reopening the backstop discussions is a permanent customs union. Which of course the reason the Leavers want the backstop changed.

Place your bets now whether Parliament will vote to demand rejection of the backstop.


26 Jan 19 - 11:56 AM (#3973571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

It's the only way to demonstrate who are, and who are not, the 'bastards' (as the Mods so charmingly describe those who challenge bigotry and provocation) on here.

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=161452
seems very clear to me who the b******s are. It is the usual suspects!

Perhaps a kind forum fairy would close this thread as it now merely seems to consist of repeated personal attacks by the "usual"


26 Jan 19 - 12:20 PM (#3973575)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

One persistent assertion of the "no deal" Brexiteers is that leaving with no deal would mean £39 billion to play with that they wouldn't have to give to those nasty foreigners. What they ignore is that that £39 billion is not a fine for leaving, it is payment in respect of debts incurred by the EU - a version of those debts which has if anything been pared down to assist the UK in these difficult times.

Failing to pay would be a matter of the UK defaulting on its debts, which is not a very good basis for winning the trust of any tother countries in conducting any kind of business or negotiation. The term used in such cases is "pariah state". Or to use a term with historical basis in the case of this country "Albion perfide".


26 Jan 19 - 12:43 PM (#3973576)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I doubt that many leavers would understand that, Kevin. In a recent survey, linked above, 26% of people thought that no deal meant we would be staying in the EU.

Maybe I am lucky in that I studied British constitution and government, and Economics at college but I thought that more people used to understand what was actually going on in politics than this. I guess the Tory cuts to education have done the job they were designed to do. An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :-(


26 Jan 19 - 01:13 PM (#3973580)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Northern Ireland demonstrators out in force today demanding there should be no hard border
Perhaps the problems that Ireland, both sides of the border, will eventually filter down to those who claim it's the Irish and Europe who are being intransigent - it's the UKwho have thrown their toys out of the pram and now they are demanding that everybody else has to pick them up

Leo Varadkar got himself into hot water yesterday by suggesting the possibility of troops returning to te North _ I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said - there is a distinct possibility that, if things continue the way they are going British troops will have to return to keep order
Jim Carroll


26 Jan 19 - 01:16 PM (#3973581)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides,therefore the effect is self cancelling. Many of those subject to Tory education cuts are still below voting age, whereas those whose education was destroyed by Labout education cuts are fully enfranchised.
Was it not the Labour MP AnthonyCrossland said "If it's the last thing I do, I'm going to destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland."    Crosland is so quoted by his wife Susan Crosland in her biography. Hewent toa fee paying school
and from the Gruniard:
" Labour MP Diane Abbott made a second attempt to defend her decision to send her son to a fee-paying school, after she was attacked by her neighbouring MP in East London. ... Since then she has admitted her decision was "indefensible" but attacked the state of the education system"
A familiar pattern of labour elitism emerging here I fear.


26 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM (#3973582)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said

That will put you in a very small minority then!

The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings of a return to soldiers and checkpoints along the border if there is a no-deal Brexit.


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseachunder-fire-for-border-soldiers-warning-900216.html


26 Jan 19 - 02:41 PM (#3973588)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

https://www.thejournal.ie/violence-north-brexit-4452334-Jan2019/
Jim Carroll


26 Jan 19 - 02:55 PM (#3973589)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides, therefore the effect is self cancelling.


I am afraid not: that assumes for example that the voting patterns of those with higher formal qualifications and without was the same, for example, which we know it wasn't. Also, it would not be self cancelling if those wanting outcome A were more prepared to manipulate - or more effective - than those wanting outcome B: even if the electorate were equally manipulatable the effect would not cancel out.


26 Jan 19 - 03:00 PM (#3973591)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

From the same article:
Over 1,000 adults were asked by Amarách Research for Claire Byrne Live yesterday, and 65% of people said they were fearful, while 24% said they weren’t.

It comes after a number of security alerts in Derry city in recent days, with the most recent last night involving a van reported abandoned outside a girls’ secondary school.

A number of incidents yesterday followed the explosion of a car bomb from outside a courthouse on Bishop Street in the city on Saturday night.

A comment below the article:
"Personally i think that the bomb attack at the weekend wasn`t to do with Brexit, but had more to do with the anniversary of 100 years ago and the first shots fired at Soloheadbeg, The bombing was exactly 100 years to the day of that anniversary which were claimed to be the first shots fired in Ireland`s civil war, it seems like this “New IRA” were trying to make a statement of some sort"

The official view of the UK government:
The attack that happened on Saturday night is the result of a threat level that has been in place before the Brexit vote, these are plots and activities that these people have been working on and trying to carry out for many, many years.

This rather confirms the statement:
The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings......".


26 Jan 19 - 04:46 PM (#3973609)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

From yougov:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.

Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.

70%/68% Dramatic? dont fink so!


26 Jan 19 - 05:33 PM (#3973612)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

On the other hand:

But Peter Kellner, the former president of the YouGov polling firm, said Sheerman was factually correct.
“I would not use Barry Sheerman’s choice of words but the facts are broadly on his side,” Kellner told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Monday.
“Overall, people who left school at 15 or 16 voted around two to one for Brexit. [For] people who got up to A-level or equivalent qualification [it was] 50:50. Graduates voted two to one to remain in the EU.
“So yes, there is quite a clear educational gradient in the way people voted in last year’s referendum.”


26 Jan 19 - 08:04 PM (#3973625)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

So, DMcG, is that an argument for "a second referendum," or is it a rock-solid argument for not having referendums at all? By extension, is it an argument that the 2016 referendum was illegitimate?

You probably know what I think!


27 Jan 19 - 02:20 AM (#3973639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

No, I don't think it is an argument for a second referendum. Or indeed against one. The factors that argue against a second referendum are those listed earlier. The only argument in favour of a second referendum I am aware of is that it may be a way of resolving some of the issues. To me, it is like Russian Roulette. Yes, if you play you may end up blowing you head off. So it only becomes sensible to play it when that is a lower risk than not playing.

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.


27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM (#3973642)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll


27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM (#3973643)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll


27 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM (#3973645)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that (WOULD) could not be honoured
Aaah yes! The promise to honour the result ofthe referendum that looks increasingly like it will not be honoured by our treacherous mps.

More fine antics of labour's MPs corbyn and abbott:

Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott 'wreck' law to protect child abuse victims over fears a new data sharing treaty with the US could be used to sentence a criminal to death.

As a commentator said:
"Whatever is wrong with Corbyn and Abbott? They are a total disgrace to democracy and justice. Protection of children should be our most important priority as human beings."


27 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM (#3973651)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.
I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me. If pointy heads cannot even predict the voting preferences of an electorate then taking any notice of their pontifications as to why they voted is a reckless pastime and could lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions.

In the US I believe a sociology degree is generally a BA. Hardly a hard science, is it?


27 Jan 19 - 05:13 AM (#3973652)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

I am going to personalise it this time. Just over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market. I challenge the brexshitters here to tell me to my face why they feel they personally feel that I should not be entitled to this. The sniveling cowards will say 'because that is what the people voted for, not some crap like that'. I want to kn ow why they personally voted to **** up my rights as a European citizen. Is ****ing up peoples lives just a big joke to you all?

?


27 Jan 19 - 05:30 AM (#3973655)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me.

Fair enough, they are more important things to discuss. But for the record it is formal logic and to do with independence of variables, not sociology.


As for SPB's question - I have my hypotheses why that happens, but being on the Remainer side of the fence, it is for others to answer.


27 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM (#3973656)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

MSN reporting martial law being considered

Exaggeration or not, this is how the situation is being reported.


27 Jan 19 - 05:37 AM (#3973657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

One of the many lies told and promises broken, SPB, was that it would be easy to negotiate the things you want. I think that those who voted to leave genuinely believed it would be. I would not blame them but rather put the blame on the shower of shits who blatantly lied, made promises they could not keep and then blamed it on everyone but themselves. In order

Nigel Garage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove

David Cameron must be included because he should have known better and Jacob Rees-Mogg just for being a twat.


27 Jan 19 - 05:41 AM (#3973658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Farage rather than garage of course. Before the people with only enough wit to use spelling mistakes as arguments jump on me.


27 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM (#3973660)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

They simply didn't know what they were voting for. They thought they were voting to kick Johnny Foreigner up the backside and stop him from coming here. They swallowed the hallowed lie that laws are forced on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats. They didn't take your interests or mine or the good citizens of the EU into consideration. They didn't realise the mortal threat to peace in Northern Ireland. They didn't realise that we would relinquish a powerful controlling hand on future EU policy and that bad things are now going to happen in consequence. They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means, or that we are now going to lose "control" of a damn sight more money than ever got tied up with the EU. They forgot that "control of our borders" can only work one way and that we are now going to struggle to run our NHS and our care system, as if they aren't in enough Tory trouble already. They talk bullshit about "opportunities" and believed the vacuous promises that countries were going to fall over themselves to sign trade deals with us. We were promised forty by now, but we have yet to sign a single one. In their brainless hubris they thought they knew better along with their mates down the boozer than the people who are paid full-time to know better. They think that their cross on the ballot meant this, that and the other, when it was just a cross, not even an English word. The people who voted leave were either gullible, racists or gullible racists. And look where they've got us.

If you can, tune into Point Of View on Radio 4 on the iPlayer. Listen to Val McDermid's clear-headed exposition of why referendums are such a bloody stupid idea and how they can, and will, undermine and ultimately wreck democracy.

One day I'll tell you what I really think.


27 Jan 19 - 05:56 AM (#3973662)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Theresa may has been blocking reform of Northern Ireland's stringent pregnancy termination laws in order to keep Sectarian DUP on her side
Jim Carroll


27 Jan 19 - 06:38 AM (#3973668)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Then again she might not. Is that project fear? or another "once upon a time" story?m


27 Jan 19 - 06:43 AM (#3973669)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means,.....

and their parents and grandparents did not know what sovereignty was during WW2 either I suppose.

You post some quite irrational material at times. No wonder you do not supply links. You would never find anyone to support you, other than the rabid left.


27 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM (#3973670)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

That is noticeably not an answer to Son's question.


27 Jan 19 - 06:51 AM (#3973671)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

SPB's question. Damn autocorrect again.


27 Jan 19 - 07:02 AM (#3973673)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Listen to Val McDermid's "
Saw an interview on Irish tele - amazing in-your - face lady (and a magnificent thriller writer)
Jim


27 Jan 19 - 07:12 AM (#3973676)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

ust over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market.

not going to personalize it ??????

You will still have freedom of movement. You may need a visa but not always.
As of 9 October 2018, British citizens had visa-free or visa on arrival access to 186 countries and territories, ranking the British passport 5th in terms of travel freedom (tied with Austrian, Dutch, Luxembourg, Irish, Norwegian, Portuguese and the United States passports) according to the Henley Passport Index. Visa free travel abroad is not uniform throughout the EU for it's citizens, it is dictated by each individual country,
Having a career mainly overseas for 45 years(not within the EU) freedom of travel was not a problem.

Leaving the EU meant leaving. That means leaving the EU customs union.
It is not like retrieving a piece of chewing gum from under the desk where remnants still adhere with tenuous links to the withdrawing entity.


27 Jan 19 - 07:22 AM (#3973677)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Whilst in the EU we abide by laws and regulations (a small minority of the ones that govern us, actually, as we are free to draw up all our domestic laws) that we have helped in a big way to draw up and which we overwhelming agree with. Most EU law is agreed to by common consent, without dispute. When we leave the EU and are obliged to make deals with the likes of the US and China (both of whom can manage quite well without good deals with us), we will have no say over regulations. And as a small nation we will be far more under the thumb of mega-corporations than we are now, under the umbrella as we are of almost half a billion people. So much for the much-vaunted "sovereignty," the subject of one of the leave campaign's most bogus arguments. Along with the let's-keep-foreigners-out part of the campaign, it was the one that appealed most to the chest-thumping little-England sentiment.

So that's the sovereignty and the control-of-money-and-borders waffle dispatched. Next...


27 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM (#3973678)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

DMcG. Your patience knows no bounds! I am impressed. To be calmly and rationally explaining things to some who cannot tell the difference between "I am going to personalise it this time" and "not going to personalize it" takes some doing. I admire your fortitude but strongly suggest that you just ignore him as everyone else now does.


27 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM (#3973679)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Jim, the vote may have been in ignorance of the likely outcome therefore leave voters should admit their ignorance or confess that they deliberately voted because they personally wanted to kick people in the teeth by denying them the rights that they themselves had enjoyed for 40 years. Anyone who says that the resented these benefits for decades are surely liars. And again, I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union?

On a side issue, if in the future Cornwall is denied structural support and investment by the UK government, then the retired wannabe gentry should not be surprised if out-of-work Cornish people help them 'come home to a real fire'.


27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM (#3973680)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I don't like ignoring people, Dave. I will happy ignore posts are that are abuse, whoever posts them, and if I think someone is just trying to 'stir' I am also prepared to ignore them. But I think SPB's question is a good one and deserves an answer. That can only come from the Iains, Nigels, bobads and so on. I and other leavers can give our views, but it will have to be one of the leavers that answers.

Unless they avoid facing up to it which is what I expect. For example Nigel went as far as accepting there will be 'Some short term hardship' but was not openly prepared to say he is ready to accept his nearest and dearest suffering that hardship.


27 Jan 19 - 07:40 AM (#3973681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Steve, I gave Jim credit for your response, sorry Jim.

Freedom of movement is not just about travel, it is also the RIGHT to work, study, retire, live with another person. Again, a RIGHT, not the gift of an individual government which can be removed or have conditions attached to it at its whim. That is what treaties are for.


27 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM (#3973682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks for the response, DMcG. I have to differ with you purely on the basis that any interaction at all only encourages some to continue their campaigns of abuse and disruption.


27 Jan 19 - 07:54 AM (#3973683)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Whoops! I and other *remainers*. I would not want to mislead.


27 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM (#3973685)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

"Farage rather than garage of course. Before the people with only enough wit to use spelling mistakes as arguments jump on me."

Farridge, Farardsh, Garridge, garardsh, let's call the whole thing off!

Please?


(Sorry, this is no time for levity...)


27 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM (#3973689)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Exaggeration or not, this is how the situation is being reported.
I would be extremely disappointed if government did notPLAN for all sorts of eventualities. to highlight such planning is project fear.
I am sure various other scenarios are planned for that would horrify you, had you knowledge of them. But unlike biblical terminology, there is no guarantee that It shall come to pass

Again, a RIGHT, not the gift of an individual government which can be removed or have conditions attached to it at its whim.
Totally incorrect!
Until recently(relatively) your passport addressed you as a subject, not a citizen. The status today is both
subject or citizen
Should anyone wish to test it I amsure conscription would very forcefully demonstrate who is entitled to what.

So that's the sovereignty and the control-of-money-and-borders waffle dispatched. Next..
Whilst in the EU we abide by laws and regulations (a small minority of the ones that govern us,


As usual not a shred of evidence to support your assertions.


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2012/06/13/europeanization-of-public-policy/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105


27 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM (#3973690)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union"
Hope that's not addressed to me - I'm for staying, not only on political principles, but over the last few wees, as Brits, we've been running around like blue-arsed flies trying to find out if Lemming Britain's actions will effect our living in Ireland
If it's going to effect us, how is it going to effect the several million brits living in Europe?
Jim


27 Jan 19 - 09:31 AM (#3973694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union"

As a British subject you are only entitled to such freedoms as the crown allows you. No more. No Less


27 Jan 19 - 11:22 AM (#3973706)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

A rough translation is that they ask to be elected by promising the earth - we believe them and elect them - they totally ignore all the promises they made and work for the wealthy for five years - then the cycle is repeated ad-infinitum
It may be called democracy but in fact it is 'democratic dictatorship'
We have what rights they care to give us, no more
Jim


27 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM (#3973718)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

A review of the new Dyson model - the 'Moral Vacuum'...


27 Jan 19 - 01:50 PM (#3973732)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

In case you did not know the pronunciation of Brexit in the US is Breg zit.


27 Jan 19 - 02:14 PM (#3973736)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Americans pronounce everything wrong! ;-) :-)


27 Jan 19 - 03:10 PM (#3973743)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

http://eveningharold.com/2019/01/23/dyson-launch-moral-vacuum/
The Sunday Times tax list is a full rundown of the top 50 taxpayers in 2017/18
Top was Stephen Rubin, owner of JD Sports and liable for £181.6 million last year

Sir James Dyson was third on the list paying £127.8 million


27 Jan 19 - 05:58 PM (#3973758)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM
. . . Unless they avoid facing up to it which is what I expect. For example Nigel went as far as accepting there will be 'Some short term hardship' but was not openly prepared to say he is ready to accept his nearest and dearest suffering that hardship.

There may be some 'short term hardship' (translate that expression how you may) but I am willing to accept that for myself, in the belief that getting free of membership of the EU will, in the long run, be better for the UK.
I realise that my immediate (younger) family may have voted 'remain'. That is, of course, their option. But my belief is that their votes (if that was the case) were based on the knowledge of a limited period of experience. I voted based on the history of the EU/EEC/Common Market since we joined. I believe that the original choice to join (taken by politicians), or to remain in 'The Common Market' (taken by referendum) was the wrong choice.
The more I see of the manoeuvres by the EU politicians (including a large number of our MPs) to pressurise us not to leave (despite the result of the referendum) the more I believe I was right to vote 'Leave'.
And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out.


27 Jan 19 - 06:02 PM (#3973759)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

That was my first post in this 'new' thread as I've been away on holiday (to Malta).
If we manage to escape the EU I don't imagine it will put any great barriers in the way of my taking such holidays in future (or to the Spanish islands, or elsewhere). The poorer (and sunnier) members of the EU rely on tourist income to a great extent.


27 Jan 19 - 08:10 PM (#3973773)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well make sure your health cover is up to snuff because a crashout means no EHIC, and no reciprocal medical care agreements means that your insurance will cost more, and it will also mean that your existing conditions won't be covered unless you pay a fortune. It could mean no more free roaming. And don't expect to swan through customs at the airport like you do now either. It's true that a weak pound means that Brits may be less inclined to go to Europe on holiday, which in turn may provide an incentive for EU holiday providers to cut costs. But book your hols now, Nigel, because, sure as eggs is eggs, that will be temporary. We're not the only tourists who like to holiday in Europe. I stashed away a goodly supply of euros when I could get 1.20 or more to the pound. Lucky me. Better move fast before May gets trashed again this week, Nigel.


28 Jan 19 - 02:05 AM (#3973781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It was no accident that I asked about hardship for your nearest and dearest rather than yourself. We have all seen the cinematic set piece where the villain threatens the hero who nobly bears it, so the villain turns his weapon on the hero's family. "You are prepared to die for your beliefs, I see. Are you prepared for these others to die for them?"

That you are prepared to put up with problems for your beliefs is your right. The question is are you prepared to let others (who don't necessarily share them) suffer for them. That does not look heroic. It looks self centred.


28 Jan 19 - 02:57 AM (#3973782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Nigel's "does imagine" sums it all up really - that's what everybody has to do regarding Britain's future "imagine" - nobody knows what will happen after Britain leaves the E U, or, based on current rumblings, whether it even will leave
Already they are talking about putting any decision on 'the long finger' and pushing the date back a few months
One of the complaints of the economists and industrialists has long been that they cannot possibly plan for the future if they have no idea of what they are going to have to deal with
That rats like Dyson start deserting the sinking ship gives the impression that some of them have a good idea
Do you have any view of the shortages of medicines that is being discussed - can we assume that you "don't imagine" that will happen either?
I have become used to the mindless disinterest of our poster who wsums up British industry as the production of "widgets", but Nigel's complacency frankly depresses me
Is there no one on your side who can show some interest in Britain's future ?

Nice cartoon in the Irish edition of the Sunday Times - two road signs side-by-side - one reading "you are now leaving Fishguard", the other "Please join the queue for Dover here"
Jim Carroll


28 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM (#3973789)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"I have become used to the mindless disinterest of our poster who wsums up British industry as the production of "widgets", but Nigel's complacency frankly depresses me
Is there no one on your side who can show some interest in Britain's future ?"


In black and white a very clear indication of not having the slightest idea of what was said. Most ably demonstrated by the following:
I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
As was pointed out steverdores, dockers and longshoremen went the way of the dodo. The real story:Here(!Off the Waterfront: The long-run impact of technological change on ...
https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.679168!/file/2014_D2_2_Upward.pd.)

There never was a golden age . Old industries die, other modes of employment arise.
It is driven by economics and innovation. But discussing economics with the left is as productive as discussing metaphysics with a fruitfly.
Corbyn well recognises the problem:
Sep 26, 2017 - The Labour leader says it's right to be carrying out "war games" planning for government. ... suggested that there could be a run on the pound if Labour went into government. ...

This is a far more plausible scenario than wargaming troops on the streets after brexit.


28 Jan 19 - 04:56 AM (#3973792)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"That rats like Dyson start deserting the sinking ship gives the impression that some of them have a good idea"

Do you have any evidence to prove Mr Dyson is changing his tax domicile, or are you merely hurling insults at the man, who has tripled his U.K. team over the past five years and currently employs 3,500 people in the country, half of which are engineers and scientists.

I suggest you either prove your statement or retract publicly your slur on a man who paid 127.8 million to the Revenue last year.


28 Jan 19 - 05:05 AM (#3973793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Not to anybody in particular
Interesting to see that a future excuse for when Brexit sends what is left of British in industry crashing into smithereens will be that we never had one worth talking about anyway
Patriots - who'd have 'em !!
Jim Carroll


28 Jan 19 - 05:36 AM (#3973794)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Patriots - who'd have 'em !!"

I'm a firm believer in Samuel Johnson's theory of 'patriotism'.


28 Jan 19 - 05:50 AM (#3973796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time. However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.”

However:We, the People, recognize that we have responsibilities as well as rights; that our destinies are bound together; that a freedom which only asks what's in it for me, a freedom without a commitment to others, a freedom without love or charity or duty or patriotism, is unworthy of our founding ideals, and those who died in their defense. Barack Obama


28 Jan 19 - 06:48 AM (#3973799)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I'm a firm believer in Samuel Johnson's theory of 'patriotism'."
Me too
We appear to be dealing with someone who believes that being patriotic means earning enough out of a country to have to pay £127.8 million per annum to the Revenue making a bomb out of EU subsidies for his farming enterprises, backing Brexit to the point of donating £12m, saying a "no deal" leave will "make no difference" and then pissing off from Britain when he realises that the policy he firmly supported and financed will rebound on him financially
'Rule Britannia every time - until the going gets tough
Jim Carroll


28 Jan 19 - 07:18 AM (#3973800)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

SEEMS LIKE DYSON ISN'T THE ONLY SCURRYING RAT

Even the leading political Brexireers
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-john-redwood-tory-mp-investors-withdraw-money-uk-economy-city-london-eu-a8056771.html

Brexit is an investment to some
https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/02/08/2198570/jacob-rees-moggs-huge-personal-windfall-after-brexit/

True patriots all
Jim Carroll


28 Jan 19 - 07:23 AM (#3973801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well excuse me but I've always paid every single penny of all the tax I ever owed but all I bloody get on this forum is slagged off!

Odd chap, this Dyson. He campaigned and whinged and threatened the government when they wouldn't join the euro. Now he's somehow become an ardent brexiteer and his pronouncements and actions simply enable the confidence to be sapped from this country. With him we can't win, can we?

I'd also, as an aside, say this about him and his stuff. I've had his bloody hoovers, big beasts, cordless and hand-held, ever since they came out. When they work they're great, they really are, but give me a couple of hours and I'll tell you what's wrong with them. They jam, block, clog up, make a horrible whining noise (a bit like Sir Jim), spit out what they've just sucked up because the little flap doesn't work and the hoses last six months if you so much as dare to use them for the purpose for which they are supposedly intended. Emptying them unavoidably involves inevitable lung cancer. And the motors burn out and the allegedly washable filters are unfit for purpose. As for those hand-dryers in public bogs, it's an art in itself using them without touching the sides, and there's a puddle of slime, snot and at least one pubic hair in that nasty little trough at the bottom, so not too deep now, lads!

But his triumph came when he decided to give an unconditional five-year parts and labour warranty on his gear. Believe me, you need it and will invoke it often. That was his business coup de grace!

Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff.


28 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM (#3973802)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

DEFINITELY AN INVESTMENT TACTIC
Jaysus - they really did see the British people coming, didn't they ?
Jim Carroll


28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM (#3973803)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"
DEFINITELY AN INVESTMENT TACTIC
"
There-there !!
Jim


28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM (#3973804)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Aaaaahh-yup to all of that Steve.


28 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM (#3973805)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Never trust a man whose parents couldn't spell 'Aaron'. ;-)


28 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM (#3973806)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well excuse me but I've always paid every single penny of all the tax I ever owed but all I bloody get on this forum is slagged off!

Odd chap, this Dyson. He campaigned and whinged and threatened the government when they wouldn't join the euro. Now he's somehow become an ardent brexiteer and his pronouncements and actions simply enable the confidence to be sapped from this country. With him we can't win, can we?

I'd also, as an aside, say this about him and his stuff. I've had his bloody hoovers, big beasts, cordless and hand-held, ever since they came out. When they work they're great, they really are, but give me a couple of hours and I'll tell you what's wrong with them. They jam, block, clog up, make a horrible whining noise (a bit like Sir Jim), spit out what they've just sucked up because the little flap doesn't work and the hoses last six months if you so much as dare to use them for the purpose for which they are supposedly intended. Emptying them unavoidably involves inevitable lung cancer, and you'll spend a pleasant ten minutes finding something with which to dig out the compacted fluff from a thousand little holes - if you can actually manage to dismantle the drum sufficiently to get at the fluff, that is. And the motors burn out and the allegedly washable filters are unfit for purpose. As for those hand-dryers in public bogs, it's an art in itself using them without touching the sides, and there's a puddle of slime, snot and at least one pubic hair in that nasty little trough at the bottom, so not too deep now, lads!

But his triumph came when he decided to give an unconditional five-year parts and labour warranty on his gear. Believe me, you need it and will invoke it often. That was his business coup de grace!

Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff.


28 Jan 19 - 07:35 AM (#3973807)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Dammit, I thought that hadn't taken! Leave it, mods - I embellished it a bit second time round!


28 Jan 19 - 08:02 AM (#3973809)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Still no proof of Dyson's change of tax domicile, yet Sir Jim still continues to lie about the man. What a surprise!


28 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM (#3973810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff."

A typical ignorant leftard comment based on fliff, fluff and flimflam, that seems suspiciously like the politics of envy.

Dyson has mastered the noble art of manufacturing successful widgets.
He designed the Rotork Seatruck at age 23. It is a very useful mini landing craft that I have used in Gabon.

Greatest Inventions of Dyson
His personal wealth more than demonstrate that his widgets keep him solvent.

How he prices his goods is a matter for him but follows well trodden ground


28 Jan 19 - 08:25 AM (#3973811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

On the BBC News app at the moment....

"A no-deal Brexit threatens the UK's food security and will lead to higher prices and empty shelves, retailers are preparing to warn MPs.
M&S, Sainsbury's and Waitrose are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.
The warning comes in a letter from the British Retail Consortium and is signed by the main food retailers.
It comes ahead of crucial votes in Parliament tomorrow.
The letter, seen by the BBC, uses the government's own estimate that freight through Calais may fall 87% from current levels, threatening the availability and shelf life of many products.
The letter expresses worry over tariffs, with only 10% of the UK's food imports currently subject to World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules.
If the UK were to revert to WTO rules, the retailers warn that would "greatly increase import costs that would in turn put upward pressure on food prices".
The other signatories to the letter include the chief executives of KFC, Co-Op, and Lidl.
The letter spells out the UK's food relationship with Europe, with nearly one third of the food in the UK coming from the EU.
"In March, the situation becomes more acute as UK produce is out of season," the letter says.
At that time of year, 90% of lettuces, 80% of tomatoes and 70% of soft fruit sold in the UK is grown in the EU, the letter says.
No more room to stockpile
"As this produce is fresh and perishable, it needs to be moved quickly from farms to our stores," the retailers say.
Retailers have been reluctant to intervene in the Brexit debate but are doing so now as the UK's departure date from the EU approaches.
Their letter says that stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the complex, 'just in time' supply chain through which food is imported into the UK will be "significantly disrupted" in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
It adds it is difficult to stockpile any more produce as "all frozen and chilled storage is already been used".
"While we have been working closely with our suppliers on contingency plans, it is not possible to mitigate all the risks to our supply chains and we fear significant disruption as a result if there is no Brexit deal," the retailers say in the letter to MPs."

I don't remember seeing that on the side of that bloody bus!


28 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM (#3973812)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I'm off to Waitrose to stockpile baked beans and air freshener.


28 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM (#3973815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin

What sucks even more than a Dyson? Support for Brexit from a direction you might not have expected:

The Communist Party


28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM (#3973817)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I'm off to Waitrose to stockpile baked beans and air freshener."
Don't forget to call into Boots for the medicines you might not be able to get
Jim


28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM (#3973818)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Not to anybody in particular
Interesting to see that a future excuse for when Brexit sends what is left of British in industry crashing into smithereens will be that we never had one worth talking about anyway
Patriots - who'd have 'em !!


I cannot make any sense of what you are trying to say.

It is a real education to see that those that protest the most have zero clue as to the difference between a Dyson the man and Dyson Ltd(a company)
Never has such confusion been displayed by so few.

In January 2019 it was announced that Dyson would move its headquarters to Singapore to ramp up manufacturing for their electric vehicle, stating Asia trade will be their main focus and commenting that the company was unhappy with EU/UK bureaucratic restrictions.

You really must learn to post accurately, otherwise your credibility goes pfffffff!!!!!


28 Jan 19 - 09:08 AM (#3973820)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I am fairly sure I read that Rees-Mogg joked at the Bruges group speech that someone had thrust a leaflet into his hand which he found "sound on Brexit" and then discovered it was from the Communist party.


28 Jan 19 - 10:04 AM (#3973826)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

An interesting analysis:


https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/what-will-happen-to-the-tory-traitors/

and the EU's useful idiots. Do they not realize that EU tax harmonization will create a wasteland where the multinationals once were? That will be their payment!

https://order-order.com/2019/01/28/irish-government-accused-weaponising-good-friday-agreement/


28 Jan 19 - 10:16 AM (#3973829)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I suspect that the Brexiteers on here will tell us that the warning issued by retailers Sainburys, Asda, M & S, Co-op and Waitrose of expected shortages post Brexit to the Government are all part of Project Fear or that we cannot trust their predictions.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.

If the Brexiteers do not respond as I have suggested I have no doubt they will ignore this post completely.


28 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM (#3973830)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Isn't it fascinating that someone who considers it anti-British to attack elected British members of parliament rant on about politicians of hiss own party and refers to the ones he doesn't agree with as "traitors"
Never understood this patriotism thing


28 Jan 19 - 10:33 AM (#3973832)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Guardian article on retailers' warning


28 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM (#3973835)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Thanks DMcG


28 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM (#3973840)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

There was talk of what Samuel Johnson thought of patriotism. Here some extracts from his pamphlet The Patriot:

A man sometimes starts up a patriot, only by disseminating discontent, and propagating reports of secret influence, of dangerous counsels, of violated rights, and encroaching usurpation.

   This practice is no certain note of patriotism. To instigate the populace with rage beyond the provocation, is to suspend publick happiness, if not to destroy it. He is no lover of his country, that unnecessarily disturbs its peace. Few errours and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion

   ...
   
   But all this may be done in appearance, without real patriotism. He that raises false hopes to serve a present purpose, only makes a way for disappointment and discontent. He who promises to endeavour, what he knows his endeavours unable to effect, means only to delude his followers by an empty clamour of ineffectual zeal.
   A true patriot is no lavish promiser: he undertakes not to shorten parliaments; to repeal laws; or to change the mode of representation, transmitted by our ancestors; he knows that futurity is not in his power, and that all times are not alike favourable to change.
   Much less does he make a vague and indefinite promise of obeying the mandates of his constituents. He knows the prejudices of faction, and the inconstancy of the multitude. He would first inquire, how the opinion of his constituents shall be taken. Popular instructions are, commonly, the work, not of the wise and steady, but the violent and rash; meetings held for directing representatives are seldom attended but by the idle and the dissolute; and he is not without suspicion, that of his constituents, as of other numbers of men, the smaller part may often be the wiser.
   He considers himself as deputed to promote the publick good, and to preserve his constituents, with the rest of his countrymen, not only from being hurt by others, but from hurting themselves.


28 Jan 19 - 12:19 PM (#3973849)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Sounds like a perfect description of the Brexshiteers, and a bloody good reason to kick them, and their insane BrexShit notions into touch.


28 Jan 19 - 12:37 PM (#3973852)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Sounds like a perfect description of the Brexshiteers,"
There's a nice leter in the Irsih Times this morning describing new terms that have sprung since the referendum - I was quite taken by "Brexcrement"
Someone must be reading your postings Baccie !!
Jim


28 Jan 19 - 01:06 PM (#3973854)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

BBC news has just reported than a number of major food manufacturers have predicted that supermarket shelves could be left empty if Birtain crashes out of the E.U.
One brave Brexiteer interviewed told the reporter - "it wont do us any harm to do without for once"
You really couldn't make this up
Jim


28 Jan 19 - 01:27 PM (#3973858)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

The date will have to be put back according to a Daily Mirror article from 23 Jan under the headline :
“Brexit has already been cancelled - and here's why they're not telling you”

There just won’t be enough parliamentary time to conclude the bills that need to be passed before March 29 .
“Of the 14 new bills required for Brexit - on things like animal welfare, money laundering and haulage - just 5 have been passed since the referendum.
Of the 9 remaining, the one closest to being finished is the Trade Bill - and the House of Lords just voted to shelve it because it lacked detail.”
That defeat in the Lords means that Britain is now unable to move to World Trade Organisation rules in the event of a no deal Brexit.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-already-been-cancelled-heres-13896286


28 Jan 19 - 02:47 PM (#3973868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

If we believed everything we read in the Daily Mirror we would be in a very sad way. Most educated people regard it as a comic, along with the guardian, apart from teachers who like freebies.

Isn't it fascinating that someone who considers it anti-British to attack elected British members of parliament rant on about politicians of hiss own party and refers to the ones he doesn't agree with as "traitors"
Never understood this patriotism thing


It is in fine company then and joins a host of other things you do not understand. By the way are you going to substantiate your statement about Dyson moving his tax domicile, or apologize for using terminological inexactitudes? We await your response with interest!
This is twice I have asked now!

Let me explain who the traitors are.
MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.

They backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.

But the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled.

Several months later there was a general election. Did any Tory MPs voice an objection to brexit or inform their electorate they would betray them 5 minutes later. The answer is: No they did not. Ensuring the security of their sinecure was of more importance to them than being honest to their electorate. Those are the facts and those facts lead a rational person to only one conclusiuon. Betrayal!


28 Jan 19 - 03:06 PM (#3973872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Eeeeh. Isn't this fun. Keep it up lads ;-)


28 Jan 19 - 03:07 PM (#3973873)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I see that the government is backing the Brady amendment, the one about revising tbe backstop. I can't see how this is going to move us on. The backstop can neither be removed nor time-limited, nor should it.


28 Jan 19 - 03:22 PM (#3973875)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It seems to rely entirely on the assumption that the EU will back down. Seems unlikely to me. So then she would have to bring back version A again, more or less. Unless the amendments of Cooper and Grieve are in play, who can even guess what would happen then.


28 Jan 19 - 03:23 PM (#3973876)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I heard briefly on the news tonight that tomatoes would rise by 28% post a no deal Brexit and imported Cheddar cheese by 40%.

Now for myself I couldn't give a monkeys, a hiatus hernia means I cannot eat tomatoes and a lactose intolerance means I cannot eat cheese.

However unlike some posters on here I really do care about my fellow human being so I am appalled that such a situation, which is easily avoidable, is even being considered.

Now I know that in the great scheme of things these are "minor" considerations but not to those with limited incomes.

I do notice that our resident Brexiteers have yet to respond to my earlier post.


28 Jan 19 - 04:07 PM (#3973879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

making a bomb out of EU subsidies for his farming enterprises,

Fact: Billionaire Brexit backer Sir James Dyson's farming business was the biggest private recipient of EU basic payments in the UK in 2016, receiving £1.6 million.

Currently, the lion's share of the UK's £3 billion in subsidies from the EU goes to basic payments linked to land area, with some environmental requirements, while a proportion is paid to environmentally friendly farming and other schemes.

New Environment Secretary (Friday 30 June 2017 08:23) Michael Gove has said Brexit is a chance to get rid of bureaucracy and design a better system of supporting farmers that could better protect and enhance the environment.

Sounds a win win to me!


28 Jan 19 - 05:28 PM (#3973882)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Mature cheddar doesn't contain lactose, Raggytash. Enjoy!


28 Jan 19 - 07:12 PM (#3973888)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Gove's "better system" actually involves the phasing out of almost all the subsidies, almost all of which in turn comes from the CAP, within seven years. Farmers were mainly leave voters. They are soon to find out that they were the ultimate turkeys voting for Christmas.


28 Jan 19 - 08:22 PM (#3973897)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

"No wonder farmers fear the Brexit wolf in sheep’s clothing"

Google that to read some stuff that should trouble farmers. Of course, farming helps to make the countryside what it is, and it's not bad despite some hooliganistic practices such as planting maize on slopes, drenching crops with neonicotinoids and planting miscanthus on land that could grow food. But farming, in pure money terms, is bad value. It produces well under one percent of our GDP and receives billions in subsidies. Once we leave the EU the severely weakened economy will ensure that farming comes low in the list of priorities for propping up, what with education, social care and the NHS also under severe strain. We've been promised many things by brexiteers that haven't got a cat in hell's chance of coming about. Subsidies for farmers are utterly stuffed, and Gove's promises aren't worth tbe paper they're written on.


29 Jan 19 - 02:06 AM (#3973907)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Gove is, I suppose, right that a hard Brexit gives us a chance to design a better system. But having the chance to do something and actually doing it are very different things. The government track record of designing systems to replace others that are actually improvements is lamentable.


29 Jan 19 - 03:19 AM (#3973911)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

NP WONDER FARMERS FEAR THE BREXIT WOLF

"If we believed everything we read in the Daily Mirror we would be in a very sad way."
MY HERO - AN HONEST ALTERNATIVE !!!

Jim Carroll


29 Jan 19 - 03:35 AM (#3973912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

No surprises there then, Jim.


29 Jan 19 - 04:09 AM (#3973915)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

It really is time this 'fake news' denial is left to the White House and people who want to be part of this discussion come up with real arguments instead of meaningless reliable star bloggers
Jim


29 Jan 19 - 04:25 AM (#3973918)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/guido-fawkes/

So the heroic guido is to the right politically. What a clever lad to point that out! Hardly likely we, the educated, were unaware of the fact.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the%20guardian/

The Loony Left
The thoughts of Churchill on the subject:
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
and even more perspicuous
“Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy.”

Abraham Lincoln to the Workingmen’s Association of New York

‘Property is the fruit of labor; property is desirable; it is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise’”

You should adopt Dyson as a role model but no doubt the only way to eradicate the dangerous indoctrination of the left is by a complete brain transplant! Then you can all become embryonic little capitalists.


29 Jan 19 - 04:38 AM (#3973919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

No additional domestic agricultural subsidies should be made on top of those already in place. CAP subsidies must not be replaced until shut time there is a net positive revenue on so called savings on EU contributions after additional NHS funding has been prioritised. If it means evicting wealthy land ownwers and handing the farms into common ownership, so be it.


29 Jan 19 - 04:49 AM (#3973920)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

DMcG Few errors and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion

The participants on the winning side of the French Revolution   obviously disagreed, as also the American revolutionaries.

It really is time this 'fake news' denial is left to the White House and people who want to be part of this discussion come up with real arguments instead of meaningless reliable star bloggers
I quite agree, you should be ashamed of yourselves quoting project fear projections. They are all froth and hyperbole

You may not like the way he says it but you have yet to itemize any lies by the font of all good news Mr Guido!
Bias is intrinsic in any news report. Most of us learnt this basic fact decades ago, apart from ardent gruniardistas. But we all know.They are best ignored.

https://order-order.com/2019/01/29/malthouse-compromise-leavers-remainers-unite-behind-brexit-plan-c/


29 Jan 19 - 04:54 AM (#3973921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

we just got back from a few days in dublin - very pleasant city. we had exceptionally good service in the hotel, bars and restaurants from friendly workers from all over europe. a positive atmosphere all round. we got off the plane in glasgow and with no passport checks were on the motorway down to cumbria in 15 minutes. very sad that a proportion of our population think this sort of experience is worth nothing and that we should be doing our best to reject it. ..or - FFS- there may be trouble.....


29 Jan 19 - 04:59 AM (#3973922)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

If it means evicting wealthy land ownwers and handing the farms into common ownership, so be it.

Required reading for leftards!


https://fee.org/articles/why-socialism-failed/


29 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM (#3973923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Overall, we rate Guido Fawkes Right Biased due to word choices that favor the Right and Mixed for factual reporting based on poor sourcing. (M. Huitsing 6/13/2018)

Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (5/18/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 7/19/2018)


No need for further comment.


29 Jan 19 - 06:14 AM (#3973938)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

There is a photo on the Guardian of someone holding a placard saying "Does your MP think you are stupid?"

Yes. But he is in the ERG, and put a video up saying his reasons for voting to leave were simple: He didn't like the EU, he didn't respect the EU flag, he didn't like the regulations...."

All about what he liked. Not a word about what was in the countries best interests which may of course differ.

So I can cope with whatever he thinks of me.


29 Jan 19 - 06:31 AM (#3973941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"No need for further comment."
None whatever
If you respond he ignores what you say and hurls meaningless quotes at you (I counting three in the space of four postings) - infant school level 'debating'
Don't be part of it (he said after just allowing himself to be drawn in)


29 Jan 19 - 07:20 AM (#3973949)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Yes. But he is in the ERG, and put a video up saying his reasons for voting to leave were simple: He didn't like the EU, he didn't respect the EU flag, he didn't like the regulations...."

All about what he liked. Not a word about what was in the countries best interests which may of course differ."


I'm guessing he's either immensely wealthy, and became an MP in order to influence decisions which affect his wealth, or he's in the pay of immensely wealthy people (a bit like May's husband).

The ERG Group give not a Flying Fuck about the likes of any of us on here - even those whose tongues are firmly embedded in the anal sphincters of the Extreme Right - they care only about their own wealth, or the wealth of those they serve.


29 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM (#3973953)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Please allow Iains to continue shitting in his own bed without any response at all from us. He's done enough in the last day or two to get kicked out of this forum but we severely weaken the case for that every single time we respond in any way whatsoever. Ignore him or just talk past him. I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!

(And that includes me with this potentially self-defeating post!)


29 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM (#3973954)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Will do, Steve.


29 Jan 19 - 07:56 AM (#3973958)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

In my last post, I was responding to DMcG.

I no longer even read anything Iains posts - he has absolutely no interest in exchanging views and opinions in a civil manner, he is only interested in causing conflict.


29 Jan 19 - 08:05 AM (#3973959)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I wasn't having a go, John!


29 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM (#3973962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I know you weren't, Steve! Just wanted to be clear for everyone else's sake.


29 Jan 19 - 08:23 AM (#3973963)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

May seems to be gaining support for renegotiation - no sign of any of them trusting the people with a democratic re-vote though
Brexit is set fair to cause FOOD PRICES TO RISE and you can lay money on it that them who can will exploit the situation to their advantage - WHEN HAVE THEY NOT ?

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!"
Good luck
Jim


29 Jan 19 - 08:30 AM (#3973964)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

She may get support for renegotiation: actually persuading the EU to renegotiate is another matter. But should they succeed, the only likely alternative from their side is the 'border in the Irish sea." Which I suspect most Brexiteers could compromise to, and if that is the only alternative to a hard Brexit they could get enough support across the house. The DUP will have voted for one of the main things they are against.


29 Jan 19 - 08:56 AM (#3973967)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Does anyone read those posts?
..................
Yet again we get Theresa May refusing to make any change. Her idea of a new adjusted arrangemaent is where someone else changes and she stays in the same place. The Theresa May Syndrome needs to be clinically recognised.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." That quote is frequently said to be by Albert Einstein. It probably wasn't actually him - but it very much sums up the Theresa May Syndrome.

It's extraordinary that Jeremy Corbyn was pilloried over the assertion that he muttered the comment "Stupid woman" in face of Theresa May. It strikes me that he might as well have muttered "Theresa May", and it would have had precisely the same meaning.


29 Jan 19 - 09:22 AM (#3973968)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!



Meanwhile the self proclaimed epitome of virtue posts the following:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:52 PM

You are a prize lout and a prize scumbag, Iains, as you have comprehensively demonstrated via your postings in several threads over the last few days (and over a much longer period, actually), as we've all observed. That isn't me saying that. You are self-declared in those regards. Your posts are capricious and immature, demonstrating that you actually need help - you have my sympathy. There really is something seriously the matter with you. There are far more decent people here than the few thorough nasties like you, bobad and, above all, Keith. You are yesterday's man and the more you open yourself to ridicule via your typically splenetic and vacuous posts the more we will ridicule you. I hope the moderators read this - they made a splendid decision a few months back to delete Teribus and akenaton from this forum. You are far more scurrilously negative than either of those. I don't actually care whether you are allowed to remain here or not. I hope that the thoroughly decent members here, including Raggytash, Dave, pfr, Jim, DMcG, Backwoodsman and Pete (sorry if I've missed anybody out) will do as I'm going to do, studiously blank you out completely. Do your worst, you big kid. You'll be a marble rattling in a biscuit tin as far as I'm concerned from now on.

Such flattery! Never mind shaw. As I have stated before I hold you in the deepest contempt as do others. After all being a called out as a"bastard" by a discerning member is hardly a ringing endorsement!


29 Jan 19 - 09:35 AM (#3973970)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim


29 Jan 19 - 09:56 AM (#3973973)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

A border in the Irish Sea would open a massive can of worms resulting in restriction of freedom of movement between different parts of the UK, which I think I might countenance if London could have a hard border with the rest of UK in exchange with staying in the customs union.

The only realistic solutions therefore would be to make NI a sovereign state, unite NI with the rest of Ireland, conclude that leaving EU is impossible, or commit economic and social suicide by just going over the cliff edge.

Sometimes I wonder if we agreed in a referendum to put rat poison in school meals then those who voted for it would refuse to back down from the decision if an expert inconveniently was to point out that this would result in millions of dead school children.

Being in government must entail working in the best interests of the population,(I would go further thatgovernments collectively should be working for the best interests of humanity) not in the interests of appeasing those who may withdraw their vote for a political party if they don't get their own way.


29 Jan 19 - 10:12 AM (#3973975)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Ignore him, Jim.


The best interest of the nation would be served by abandoning brexit. Brexit is a bit like the emperor's new clothes. They don't actually exist, though most of our politicians, as well as the feeble-minded leave camp in general, think they can see silk and shiny sequins. The emperor's scruffy old Asda George shirt and undies and old Woolworths jeans (a bit like the EU) at least kept him safe and warm and stopped him from catching a severe chill. Well they work for me anyway, though I must confess that I haven't been outside in the cold today...


29 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM (#3973976)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

...not in the buff anyway. Down girls...


29 Jan 19 - 10:25 AM (#3973979)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Meanwhile back at the ranch:
Fiona Onasanya, Peterborough’s Labour* MP who was last year found guilty of perverting the course of justice, has been sentenced this morning to three months. She has become the first woman MP ever to be jailed…
The Tory hopeful is already electioneering for her seat. It seems a very mild slap on the wrist for an MP and solicitor to be found guilty of perverting the course of justice.(Huhne fessed up and got 9 months) so much for all being equal under the law!

and from the font of all things good. GUIDO

This is the order the amendments will be voted on, starting at 7pm:

    (a) Jeremy Corbyn – calls on the PM to rule out no deal while, predictably, keeping all options on the table
    (o) Ian Blackford – notes that the SNP don’t like Brexit, calls for no deal to be ruled out and Article 50 extended
    (g) Dominic Grieve – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on six dates in February and March allowing MPs to hijack Brexit
    (b) Yvette Cooper – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on 5th February to allow MPs to bring a Brexit-blocking Bill in
    (j) Rachel Reeves – calls on the PM to seek an extension to Article 50
    (i) Caroline Spelman – notes that Parliament rejects leaving without a deal
    (n) Graham Brady – calls for the Northern Ireland backstop to be replaced with alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border


29 Jan 19 - 11:02 AM (#3973987)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

we just got back from a few days in dublin - very pleasant city. we had exceptionally good service in the hotel, bars and restaurants from friendly workers from all over europe. a positive atmosphere all round. we got off the plane in glasgow and with no passport checks

No passport controls between Ireland and the UK is by no means automatic, especially by air travel. I would say more than 50% of the time flying to Ireland my passport was checked on arrival.
Two EU members – Ireland and the United Kingdom – negotiated opt-outs from Schengen and continue to operate the Common Travel Area systematic border controls with other EU member states.
However, Irish immigration officers will check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and may ask for proof of nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK. (Still current at: 29 January 2019 gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland)


29 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM (#3973988)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"...not in the buff anyway. Down girls..."
Not the only thing that's "down" in the cold weather


29 Jan 19 - 12:21 PM (#3974001)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim


Howsabout some of yours laddie, you little charmer!

Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody
Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PMMake up your fucking mind you mad fascist
You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes
Jim Carroll - PM

Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:48 AM
CAN SOME HUMANE FORUM FAIRY WHO HAPPENS TO BE IN THE VICINITY PLEASE CLOSE DOWN THIS MINDLESSLY OBSESSIVE ONE-MAN CAMPAIGN. SOMEONE PUT HIM OUT OF ALL OUR MISERIES, PLEASE!!  
Still the same old, same old imbecility -are you really so insecure in your position?
For crying out loud, grow up and try to conduct a reasonable argument without the blustering bullshit - how old are you?
It's like trying to discuss with a truculent child

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM
Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your supporst for a mass murder and torturer.
Christ - what a team - racists, fascists and moronic bullies who think they know more than anyone else after five minutes posting.



Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
you seem to just exist up your own arse and you're not even good at it, having stolen most of it from elsewhere, like your claimed knowledge of socialism
Jim Carroll

Piss off you pair of racist pricks
Jim Carroll
At present, you are displaying all the belligerent thuggery and potential menage I associate with the racism you are displaying.
Jim Carroll


29 Jan 19 - 12:39 PM (#3974003)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Quasi-exciting stuff. The Brady amendment, which is meaningless drivel, is on a knife-edge, as is Yvette Cooper's, one that makes much more sense. Amazing, innit, how May has to hang on to every whim of the sectarian DUP and the back-stabbing far right of the ERG...


29 Jan 19 - 01:08 PM (#3974005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

May's opponents in the Tory party, led by Lord Snooty, have been holding secret meetings to plan how she is going to be handled
Would you bleedin' Adam 'n Eve it !!!
Jim


29 Jan 19 - 01:24 PM (#3974008)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

The trouble with both those amendments is that both of them are about the UK parliament deciding something should happen which are completely out of its power to make happen, and which there is no reason can happen.

The Brady one is just about expecting the EU to do something it has repeatedly said it will not and cannot do; and the Cooper amendment isn't much better. Even if the Prime Minister can be compelled ask the EU to postpone the March headline when the UK is due to cease to be a member of the EU - there is no reason why the EU should agree to that, given the continued refusal of the UK government to change its "red lines".


29 Jan 19 - 01:25 PM (#3974009)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

They're holding one to decide what to do just before the Brady vote tonight. You wouldn't think there was a country at stake...


29 Jan 19 - 01:33 PM (#3974011)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Their wealth, and their ability to continue to run their tax-avoidance scams, are their top priority. The rest of us can go hang, they don't give a FF about us.


29 Jan 19 - 02:02 PM (#3974019)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Stephen Barclay in summing has been asked three times (at least) what the phrase "alternative arrangements" means in the amendment the government is backing. After a series of dodges he finally had to say they would be whatever we could negotiate (ie no idea!)


29 Jan 19 - 03:42 PM (#3974028)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Faisal Islam(@faisalislam)
Go9d summaey from sky news:


Commons in short, so far.

We totally reject May’s Deal
We reject No Deal
We reject the power to stop No Deal ourselves.

Now voting to give the PM a mandate to change a backstop she negotiated that has already been rejected by negotiation partners.


29 Jan 19 - 03:49 PM (#3974029)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

So they've passed that silly amendment. More time wasted, more playing dice with the well-being of the country.


29 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM (#3974034)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

And the EU immediately responded in writing that the agreement will not be reopened.

It is all going so well.


29 Jan 19 - 04:33 PM (#3974039)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

39 billion is a very enticing persuader. We are not talking about an
Ein Bahn Strasse.Now the PM has had her mandate renewed she can play a very strong hand.
Spiffing to see steptoe senior and his front bench looking as though they have been chewing on wasps!


29 Jan 19 - 06:25 PM (#3974049)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

So the EU will rightly tell May to bugger off, as THEIR remit is to act in the best interests of its members, ie Ireland in this case, not to pander to the naughty child who's thrown his toys (and himself) out of the pram. Mucking about with the backstop is tantamount to selling Ireland down the river and risking tearing up the Good Friday Agreement. But it won't be spun that way. Oh, no. It will be the EU being bullying, intransigent and inflexible. Just watch this space.


29 Jan 19 - 06:29 PM (#3974050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case.

Bully boy's at it again I see. The mods have him pegged.


29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM (#3974058)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:

This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May’s deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory “moderates” taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a “serious proposal”. Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue.


Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.


29 Jan 19 - 07:59 PM (#3974066)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

And guess who said this in the debate:

“One has to keep in mind and respect the decision of the referendum, but that does not mean that you simply say that you’re going to drag the country out on terms that nobody seems to very much support towards a future which on the face of it looks pretty bad. And that is an abdication of our responsibility.”

Sometimes you come across something that makes you think "Why is he a Tory?" I might not agree much with the first bit, but the rest is measured and good. Why, 'twas Dominic Grieve!


29 Jan 19 - 09:45 PM (#3974072)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

The Communist Party of Britain wants to Brexit under World Trade Organization rules. Peter Sutherland , the first Director-General of the World Trade Organization who drafted the organization’s rules was also an EU commissioner !


30 Jan 19 - 02:00 AM (#3974082)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party also has a Brexit policy.

It's worth remembering that the OMRLP has exactly the same number of MPs as the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.


30 Jan 19 - 02:19 AM (#3974083)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

One of the things at risk of being under-reported is that the Spelman amendment to oppose a no-deal was carried by 8.   

It has long been reported that a majority of the House are against no deal, and at first sight this bears that out. The margin is probably an underestimate, because May promised there would be another opportunity to oppose no-deal in February. Also, the fact that the vote was entirely symbolic adds fogginess: some will vote in favour of the amendment because it has no consequences, and some will not vote for it and risk upsetting the voters at home precisely because it has no effect.

But with all that said, 8 is a very thin margin. I am not at all confident that if it came to it, the House would oppose a no-deal in the final moments. There is something in game theory called 'The Tragedy of the Commons' (in the sense of commonly owned land); it is ironic that the House of Commons looks like it will be a perfect example.

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing. That the house voted to adopt the policy of 'Wait for the Other Guy to Blink' (even though this is the antithesis of #taking back control') means I think Nigel's prediction is now the more likely. If May comes back in February with nothing from the EU, the house will simply say "Ah, that's what we expected. Let's keep waiting, the EU will crack in the end."


30 Jan 19 - 02:34 AM (#3974084)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

'They' are heading for a No-Deal-Brexit, and delaying, delaying, delaying in order to fool the feeble-minded amongst us, when the true horror of what that means hits them, that's 'It's all the fault of the EU and their intransigence - they forced us into it, we had no alternative'.

But hey-ho, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Jonathan Redwood, Philip May and his clients, and the tiny, immensely-wealthy cadre who give the Tories their orders will all be very happy as they continue their tax-avoidance schemes...


30 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM (#3974091)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I heard Rees-Mogg going on this morning about a no deal allowing us to exit without paying the debts currently owed to the EU. Just shows how he works. Got a lot in common with Trump.


30 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM (#3974092)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

They don't get rich by letting money go from their greedy, grasping hands, Dave!


30 Jan 19 - 05:31 AM (#3974093)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

A bit of light relief

Britain to repeat its Brexit offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it

Well, it would be but for some people... :-)


30 Jan 19 - 05:54 AM (#3974094)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:


"This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May's deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory "moderates" taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a "serious proposal". Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue."

Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.

You're right. You couldn't have put it better yourself. That doesn't mean that it is accurate.
May does NOT "act as if it must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first". She excluded the majority of the conservative party from any discussions, and would not be led by her "Brexit ministers". She presented the cabinet with a fait accompli at Chequers, in such a manner that made it very difficult for them to object (at that time). They were incommunicado, their mobiles handed in, and had no transport home if they left the cabinet at that stage.
The 'agreement' she offered them at that time had already been shown to (some) EU leaders, so the view of the Conservative MPs (be it Cabinet, MPs at Westminster, or the party as a whole) did not get a chance to show 'satisfaction' (or otherwise) with the agreement ahead of it being made public to the rest of the country.


30 Jan 19 - 06:41 AM (#3974095)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

You'll like this one, BWM

"Deluded" Boris and "unicorn" Raab get shut down on live TV

Looks like more and more people are understanding that the promises made are the stuff of fantasy.


30 Jan 19 - 08:14 AM (#3974096)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

It's unicorns all the way down...


30 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM (#3974098)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:...............

Why on earth would anyone sensible wish to waste their energy wading through the partisan ramblings of a lefty media hack?

More fruitful to take heed of the ruminations of the Nation's leader!

Brought by courtesy of Mr Guido. The font of all topical and accurate reporting.



Backstop Alternatives


30 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM (#3974099)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

On the more serious side, it does worry me that people are using the card game analogies. 'We hold all the cards'. 'We need to call the EU's bluff'. Even if these were true, to liken the fate of a nation to a game of chance seems to be somewhat frivolous to say the least. We have already seen the effect of Cameron banking on the referendum saying stay. Are memories really so short?


30 Jan 19 - 09:12 AM (#3974104)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

How Businesses Are Preparing for Brexit

Makes grim reading. Doesn't affect me but it will affect many others. My children and grandchildren included.


30 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM (#3974110)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Interesting article from Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford) in the New Statesman.

Why the UK cannot see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid

A point I have made all along is that if the likes of Murdoch and Rothermere want to leave, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is only to benefit them. The author of the article makes the point

If people have doubts about my argument that the media played a central role is misdirecting the public then (and many do), well Brexit should be a test case. And so far Brexit has gone exactly as these newspaper proprietors would have wished. Three coincidences is a row? The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid while the UK stockpiles food and medicine, and the Prime Minister tries to blackmail MPs into supporting her deal, is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

I suspect there will be no sensible arguments against Prof. Wren-Lewis's views.


30 Jan 19 - 10:37 AM (#3974118)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid ... is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

Not quite.

The U.S. is constantly polluted by a tsunami of Murdoch pigs**t as well.

I expect the Trumpist f**kwits think Brexit is at least as good an idea as "The Wall".


30 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM (#3974123)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford)
On 27 September 2015 it was announced that he had been appointed to the British Labour Party's Economic Advisory Committee, convened by Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and reporting to Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn.

No guessing as to which side he is batting for then.
Project fear by a professor.

Now the true story by the Gruniard no less:
Why economic forecasting has always been a flawed science
While accepting the Nobel prize for economics, Friedrich Hayek made an astonishing admission. Not only were economists unsure about their predictions, he noted, but their tendency to present their findings with the certainty of the language of science was misleading and “may have deplorable effects”.

This revelation, made about 40 years ago, is a crucial one and yet it has been largely forgotten or ignored.


https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/02/economic-forecasting-flawed-science-data


30 Jan 19 - 11:46 AM (#3974127)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Brexit has exposed an unfortunate reality – that the media’s commitment to reporting the facts, pure and simple, leaves a lot to be desired. And while this could be the product of bad journalism and poor research, there is also the possibility that that its ‘research and inform’ function has been usurped by a role as ‘narrative manufacturers’. And that’s a big worry.

Why did some South Asians vote for a campaign that was, at times, seen as bigoted and xenophobic? Perhaps voters didn’t feel particularly European; or perhaps the Leave camp’s pro-Commonwealth rhetoric pulled hard on the heartstrings; or perhaps the supposedly xenophobic and racist elements of the Leave campaign just didn’t offend many well-integrated, South Asian voters who strongly identify with the UK.

https://unherd.com/2019/01/brexits-unheard-voices/

This rather destroys the narrative repeatedly thrown at us by few lefties here. Racists, Bigots. I rather think not!


30 Jan 19 - 12:02 PM (#3974130)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

“the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.”

The CPB has a lot of influence , Backwoodsman . The fact that Jeremy Corbyn supports and writes regularly in its daily paper, the Morning Star , goes some way to explaining his inability to lead a fight against Brexit.


30 Jan 19 - 12:04 PM (#3974131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Just on the BBC News App...

Brexit: Backstop is 'part and parcel' of the deal, says Michel Barnier - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47061650


30 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM (#3974134)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Mick, despite the Tories' attempt to make it so, Brexit is not a party-political issue. And if May had made it a cross-Party project right from the start, she wouldn't have been in the shit-pile she's in now. All the way through, she's had a policy of keeping the other parties at arm's length. It's a bit of a cheek to complain now that Corbyn and Labour aren't helping her out.

She made her bed, let her lie in it.


30 Jan 19 - 12:12 PM (#3974137)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project, but in my opinion, the 2016 referendum result would have been different if the Leave campaign hadn’t been supported by left Brexiteer groups such as the Communist Party, the SWP and Socialist Party.


30 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM (#3974141)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

Backwoodsman ,certain sections of Labour helped Boris J and Farage out. Dennis Skinner another left Brexiteer and Morning Star reader George Galloway another . I have asked friends in the Communist Party of Ireland -which bizarrely supported and campaigned for Brexit - what percentage of the vote did they think the left contributed to the result ;I have asked supporters of the pro-Brexit People Before Profit group here the same question.They always get uncomfortable and say something like “a very small percentage” , which makes them as irrelevant as you thinks they are . But these groups are not irrelevant .If there was proportional representation in the UK as there is in Ireland, I’m sure such left Brexiteer groups would have several MPs .Getting groups like that to at least abstain in future referendums or to leave the Brexit coalition is the key to overturning the disaster in my opinon.


30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM (#3974142)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project
It may be portrayed that way, especially on this forum, but unfortunately the facts do not support it. That is why the left resort to constant swearing and insults in a futile endeavour to hide these self evident truths

"While referendum boundaries and parliamentary boundaries differ the closest estimates shows the following.
These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain.

When you factor in the uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain."


31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM (#3974223)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

More "good news" :-(

Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border


31 Jan 19 - 05:45 AM (#3974224)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

A good summary...

Phil Dunn
10 January 2018 · Bournemouth

UK: We want a unicorn
EU: We don't do unicorns. None of us have unicorns, There are no unicorns.

UK: But we promised unicorns and the people have spoken. We want unicorns
EU: That's not really our problem. There are no unicorns

UK: You're being unreasonable. We demand unicorns
EU: There are no unicorns

UK: You are bullying us with your outrageous demands!
EU: Eh? We just said there are no unicorns because... well... there are no unicorns.

UK: OK! We get your game. You're stalling! We're prepared to walk away without a unicorn you know! (Thinks: that'll show'em)
EU: There are no unicorns.

UK: You bastards! Nigel was right. You're out to destroy us. We'll go and speak to Donald instead. HE has unicorns!
EU: Errrrrmmm, there ARE no unicorns.

UK: That does it. This is our final position. We want unicorns...right now... gold plated... fluent in greek....ermmm.... or we're off!
EU: Are you still here? There are no unicorns.

UK: DAMMIT! What about a packet of crisps then?
EU: Sorry we're busy.

#StopBrexit #ExitBrexit #NoUnicorns


31 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM (#3974232)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

brexit is the conclusion of 40 years of tory infighting yet we are all dragged into it. it is the failing of all our politicians to stand up to the racists and old empire neanderthals of the far-right reaches of the tories, ukip and the knuckle -draggers beyond.
it is their failing and ours too - who have never got it together to rid ourselves of the tories and their deadening, depressing mind set. seems there will always be a large minority who will worship/vote for the toffs who love to despise and ignore us. flag-waving dimwits who have no faith in themselves or their fellow citizens to run our countries without the divine touch of our betters.

this is all getting me down - really, who could have imagined the situation where the likes of farage and rees - mogg could be taken seriously? what has become of my country? what happens next? i'm sure for many people this is an intriguing political drama - but for those of us who have to face aggressive far-right leavers every day in the pub, round town and at work 'traitor!' 'you'll end up in hospital talking like that' - where racist, anti-muslimism is the default position of staff in my organisation, sadly it is a daily problem.

we have talked about moving back to scotland where the air is more breathable or maybe further afield - just now i see very little hope for little england . we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally - we seem to have accepted our fate and will take whatever chaos our leaders arrange for us.

- for fucksake!


31 Jan 19 - 12:34 PM (#3974248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM
"No-Deal Brexit: Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border, Supplier Warns
Industry faces "disaster" as only root vegetables may be on sale, and cost of ready meals could surge."


I do like the way the leftards pick up on every piece of negative news about Brexit confident that everything they read is accurate. It demonstrates very clearly that they do not even do five minutes research on the subject.
Fact: Fresh fruit 70% sourced from outside the EU.
       Vegetables 30% sourced from outside the EU

We also supply the bulk of Irelands fruit and vegetables and export vegetables to the EU. If EU food to the UK rots on the quayside it will no doubt join fleets of rusting german cars denied their export market. Eating out of season produce is a modern development.Locally sourced produce is probably a healthier option, and far fresher.

It simply ain't going to happen, the resulting glut in europe will bankrupt the producers.


31 Jan 19 - 12:48 PM (#3974254)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally

The statistics totally destroy your argument. Read my post: Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM

Terrible things facts!


31 Jan 19 - 01:14 PM (#3974258)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Talking of being depressed, it is depressing that so many government speakers are now saying we have now told the EU what we want, as they have asked.

No you haven't. You have told them what you don't want (yet again.) Even if the backstop were reopened, and an 'alternative approach' to the backstop agreed, there is no certainty at all that a significant section of the Brexiteers do not simply say "We don't like that either." The Brady amendment says they will support May's deal if she gets a change but Rees-Mogg and others made sure it was noted in the debate they won't have to. Thus neatly demolishing the entire declared purpose of the amendment.


31 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM (#3974265)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Well said, Pete. It worries me too but I am hopeful that the backlash is begining. We see the types you mention everywhere (just look on here!) But more and more people seem to be standing up to the nonsense spouted. If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!


31 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM (#3974268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!"

Those ruling you have a mandate from a referendum, backed by a Parliamentary majority. The only nonsense spouted is your own and "taking action" sounds like revolution to me. But I am sure the counter-terrorism directorate keeps tabs on wannabe revolutionaries such as yourself and would nip any threatened action in the bud. This allows we law abiding citizens to sleep safe in our beds at night.

It is of course a public duty to report individuals threatening insurrection. After all it is but another form of terrorism!


31 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM (#3974272)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Hey, just realised! Is Steve snowed in? Who can arrange an airdrop of Tuscan bean casserole and Nero D'Avolo to Cornwall? :-)


31 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM (#3974273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I reckon he'll have plenty stockpiled, Dave, ready for when Jake Rich-Mong and his cronies get their way and we crash out on 29/3/19, and the shortages begin! :-)


31 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM (#3974275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Actually, I am snowed in, and the bugger wasn't forecast - it was supposed to bloody rain!!! Don't worry, I have all my post-no-deal stockpiles to hand, though I forgot to buy a ton of air freshener to go with all these tins of baked beans...

That was a fantastic post, Pete. One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate. It did not. There was nothing constitutionally mandating about that result, only the spouting of a brainless pig-molester. Like all referendums in this country it was advisory. And Theresa May only managed to obtain anything even remotely resembling a "mandate" by buying off a tawdry bunch of sectarian terrorist apologists.


31 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM (#3974276)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Lord Snooty and his pals? It would be like a comic strip it it wasn't so tragic!


31 Jan 19 - 04:27 PM (#3974278)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate

Mandate:1)    an official order or commission to do something.
       2)    the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given
             by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an
             election.

David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.

The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.
"It is time for the British people to have their say," he said. "It is time to settle this European question in British politics. I say to the British people: this will be your decision."

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
I rest my case!


31 Jan 19 - 05:17 PM (#3974285)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I'll say this once and for all, not to any specific individual on this forum but to everyone listening. You can check it out until you are blue in the face for all I care, but this is the truth: ready?

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory. It has no constitutional force to create a mandate, no matter what any fly-by-night politician said or whatever any desperado in this forum tells you. That is the fact of tbe matter, the law of the land, and no amount of spin can change that. OK, maybe it doesn't make any bloody difference. But be assured that anyone saying that they are obeying the will of the people with no alternative, or pretending that the referendum gave them a mandate, is lying in their teeth. All constitutionally checkable and not up for alternative opinions. Cheers.


31 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM (#3974287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

All perfectly verifiable by checking the Research Paper to the Referendum Bill. The relevant section 4.1 states:-

"4.1 Types of referendum
This Private Member’s Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement on the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation is introduced. The UK does not have a written codified constitution which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike for example the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum are held is set out in its constitution."


I've emboldened the appropriate sentences.

The whole Research Paper to the Bill can be found here


31 Jan 19 - 05:46 PM (#3974288)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Thanks, John. You can't beat the actual facts of the matter, can you?


01 Feb 19 - 02:01 AM (#3974313)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Terrible things, facts!" Steve. ;-)


01 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM (#3974323)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory.

and

"MPs have voted overwhelmingly in favour of Theresa May triggering Article 50, meaning the Prime Minister is on track to begin Brexit negotiations with Brussels in March.

By 498 to 114 - a majority of 384 - MPs backed allowing the bill to progress to the next, more detailed legislative stage.

Ten Labour junior shadow ministers and three whips, who are supposed to enforce party discipline, voted against triggering Article 50 in revolt against Mr Corbyn."

To quote your own words:"what most of them(MPs) actually do (give in to realpolitik) is wholly consistent. ..... why both parties "supported brexit" after the referendum. Any party opposing the outcome of the vote would be toast."

To quote myself(again)From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Jan 19 - 06:20 AM

There is a certain inconsistency in your arguments:
You say they(mps) work for the best interests of the country ...chunder, chunder, chunder....
But!
you also say:"Well the one and only reason that the Tory referendum, then Article 50, were ratified is that the steamroller was already in full flow and that any party which voted against either would have been toast. We call it realpolitik."

seems to me you want to have your toast and eat it, and furthermore accept when it comes to survival Labour MPs would sell their aunts!

For a man that argues the sins of nitpicking you obviously hope your dual standards will not be commented on.


01 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM (#3974325)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

While there is some value in understanding how we got into this mess, especially if there is another referendum, that is far less important than where we go from here.

There seems to be a widespread belief that we are far from adequately prepared for a no deal. Since both sides seem to be assuming the other will give up in the end, a no deal is looking quite likely. There seems to be a chance that May will ask for an extension that is too short to achieve anything in the way of preventing a no deal, or not ask at all. If the time is too short the only agreement in place says only one extension is allowed. However, that does seem to be to be something that could change. An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU, even though it of obviously the EU that decides what it thinks that is, and disagree with him.

Predicting what will happen next assumes people are acting coherently. So at the moment such predictions are impossible, I fear.


01 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM (#3974326)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU."

It will be an education to see how he is rewarded,come the next election!


01 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM (#3974330)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Let me elaborate, as assuming UK MPs know what the EU regards as in its best interests is a common failure. They say that the trade loss, or the loss of the 36billion or whatever means the EU will give on on the end. But it is the EU that will decide. The 36billion is a one off payment. Damage to the single market that May arise is a recurring cost. It is perfectly rationale for the EU to decide the 36billion is not worth what they - not the uk - judge the recurring costs to be.

And this is only talking trade. There are other factors that the EU regard as important and the UK cannot decide they are unimportant.


01 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM (#3974333)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

This fairly well sums up the current situation! (See what I did there?) :-)


01 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM (#3974334)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

What voters in the UK voted overwhelmingly against was the creation of a federal europe, and destruction of the nation state. Two world wars were fought over attempted destruction of the nation state by German domination.
Federalism and the eradication nationhood is a well documented aim of the EU,publicly stated by both Merkel and Macron. If avoiding such a fate has a cost=so be it!


01 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM (#3974348)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is striking how Brexiteers have moved from 'it's all sunny uplands'to 'we - ie you whether you voted for, or against, or didn't vote - will bear any short term (undefined)
costs (unquantified) because I think we are replaying the second world war'


01 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM (#3974349)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Not breaking my oath not to involve with this poster but I think it worth noting that far from "overwhelmingly" this ludicrous decision was taken on a narrow majority which represented a minority of the British people as a whole - 'bout time this shit about 'the wishes of the British people' was put to bed once and for all
If what they wanted came into this at all they would be asked to reconfirm their choice now we have a government that cannot agree with its own party and has to bribe a sectarian party to get anything through Parliament, a people divided, a UK on the brink of fragmentation and major British firms doing a runner to continue filling their coffers by manufacturing their "widgets" elsewhere, including the Europe they supported leaving.
Let's see how many voters support Brexcrement now the implications have become clear - no chance with these 'democrats' at the helm
It is utter bollocks to claim that the voters who did support the decision to leave voted for or against against any of this.... none of these flights of fancy have ever been claimed to feature in their decision
Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward
There, that's my clearing the phlegm from my throat done for the day
Jim Carroll


01 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM (#3974352)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Quite so, Jim. Everyone, leaver or remainer, is entitled to say why they voted as they did. They are not entitled to assume that everyone - or indeed anyone - who voted the same way agrees with those reasons. For example, it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.


01 Feb 19 - 07:36 AM (#3974353)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.

Well I do, and you are wrong!

"The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave). By far the most frequently cited
reason for voting Remain was ‘Economy’ (mentioned by nearly 40% of those who said they intended to vote
Remain)."

CSI’s data
Interestingly,
‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ has by far the lowest average rank, being ranked last by a full 88% of
Leave voters.
This contradicts the widespread claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’: i.e., that people voted
Leave as a way of venting deep-seated grievances about things such as inequality, austerity and social
liberalism, rather than because they opposed Britain’s membership of the EU per se.

"Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward

Nonsense!!!!
The most important reasons for voting Leave was: ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters.

A crying shame that the more rabid remainiacs here have nothing but false arguments and bile to refute well researched facts. Hardly surprising many threads get closed.


01 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM (#3974354)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

And now the Gibraltar problem raises its head again. All sorted in the Withdrawal Agreement, but if it is reopened, it is reopened for everybody.


01 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM (#3974355)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

While we're at it I think a point our Guido Brexiteer made some time ago is worth a close examination
"Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies."
This is of course perfectly true and the implications are that given the aim of standing on our own two feet, the only way Britain industry can survive in the present circumstances is by forcing wages down below the level of its competitors - textiles lap-tops, mobile phones and other electronic goods all have hit the headlines, but I'm sure there are many more   
SLAVE CONDITIONS
If our Guido Gatherer is right, these are the conditions that will need to be imposed on British workers - and as Maggie silenced what little voice workers had in their lives, they'll have to learn to bend down and take it
In the case of the industries we no longer have, Britain will have to buy wherever it is cheapest - I believe the DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC of the CONGO might be a good source for our coal, but it might cost us a bit to keep the refugees from there out - as promised !
There - we've heard it from the horses's mouth
Jim Carroll


01 Feb 19 - 07:56 AM (#3974356)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I think the laddie above is confusing sovereignty with globalism.
globalism(Noun) An ideology based on the belief that people, goods and information ought to be able to cross national borders unfettered.

    A socio-economic system dedicated to free trade and free access to markets.
It has upsides and downsides.
There is no question that globalization has been a good thing for many developing countries who now have access to our markets and can export cheap goods. Globalization has also been good for Multi-national corporations and Wall Street. But globalization has not been good for working people (blue or white collar) and has led to the continuing deindustrialization of the west.

Labor can move from country to country to market their skills. True, but this can cause problems with the existing labor and downward pressure on wages.


01 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM (#3974357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Arron Banks and Leave.EU fined £120,000 by ICO

When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...


01 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM (#3974358)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Well, if I am wrong, I am wrong. But if you read what I said, I did not claim that "giving a kicking" was the major or even a highly significant one: I said it was likely to be a big section. 12% seems a fairly big section to me. Of course, I am also not claiming those 12% put it in first place either.

But there is another complication common to all polls. What people say they do and what they actually do often differs. Polls often under represent the Conservative vote in Labour strongholds, because people there there don't like to admit they are Tory. You get the same effect in reverse in Tory areas. In a survey like that people tend to give an acceptable answer rather than the real answer. So the poll gives some information, but like all polls it is mistake to read too much certainty into it.


01 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM (#3974359)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of "EU bureaucracy/sovereignty" was completely ignorant both of how the EU operates and of how little "sovereignty" we gave up. We have a big say in what laws and regulations are passed or rejected and we have the veto. The vast bulk of EU law is agreed by common consensus without the need to vote (though the vote is always available if required). If we wish to trade with the EU post-brexit we will still have to abide by a large number of regulations, most of which we have no need to argue against but all of which we will have no say in. On top of that, just wait to see the bureaucracy and the sacrifice of sovereignty when we are obliged to do deals with China and the US.

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

But the bottom line is that everyone was asked nothing more than to put a cross against one of two simplistic choices. Not a word, not a reason, not an opinion. A cross.


01 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM (#3974360)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I console myself with the sure and certain knowledge that the fools who allowed themselves to be conned by the deceit of the Leave campaign will be just as hurt by BrexShit as those of us who had the presence of mind to see it for what it was, and who took the sensible decision to vote Remain.

And, when the Leave-voters start bellyaching when the pain begins, it will give me great pleasure, not to mention a bloody good laugh, to say, "Don't blame me, you voted for it, now enjoy taking it up the arse - you've got what you asked for".


01 Feb 19 - 08:39 AM (#3974363)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

They will just blame remainers, the EU and, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, BWM. Everyone's fault but their own.


01 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM (#3974365)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

If you look at the BBC "Have Your Say" and equivalents, you will see plenty doing that already, Dave.


01 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM (#3974367)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

Is that fact? whimsy , opinion or pure boll**ks?

You do say the most ridiculous things.

I notice blaming the russians has totally lost credibility for causing the leave vote majority.


When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...

I dol ike a well reasoned argument. Yours, like those of many remainiacs, starts with "Once upon a time!"
Once again the facts do not support your argument! Worth remembering that this(data leak) was non-political advertising after the referendum – meanwhile the Lib Dems are still under investigation for selling data to the Remain campaign during the referendum…

and we had best not talk about Livingstone, or Jeremy Corbyn in 2012 saying that “yes of course” Israel may engage in “creating a false flag event” to start a war with Iran, or Corbynites succeeded in seizing control of Chuka’s local Labour Party in Streatham last night, or Fiona Onasanya. To name but a few!


01 Feb 19 - 08:57 AM (#3974369)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Very good points by Gary Younge in the Guardian

Many working-class leavers were not motivated by self-interest, but by values

Clip from the article

The UK making its own rules came a close second out of four (immigration was first) in the reasons why people voted leave.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU. But then again, I suppose nobody told them that. Oh, hang on, no one told me either. I wonder how I knew?


01 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM (#3974373)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I think analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation has more credibility than a gruniard hack.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU.
Is there some part of leave you have a problem with understanding?


01 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM (#3974374)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I have looked a little more into that survey and it has some severe technical flaws, of which the most serious is they suggested the reasons for leaving. But it is perfectly possible the reason for voting Leave was not any of their choices. I have said before that the thing that tool me closest to voting Leave was how Greece was dealt with. There was a problem, certainly, but there were other ways of sorting out the issue.

Similarly, the thing which would make me most inclined to vote Leave at the moment is the rise of the alt-right across Europe, and its potential effect if enough MEPs were elected. But even that would be a complicated balance, because I would have to make judgements on how the separation of powers within the EU constrains that, for example, compared to an unconstrained UK government. I would still vote remain, I believe, but it would be a complicated process. And not something the "choice of four reasons" from the survey would encompass.


01 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM (#3974376)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU. The lie that the EU controlled both our laws and our borders was well established.


01 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM (#3974378)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU.
No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement". Once we leave (if it ever happens) we will be able to put restrictions on those who enter the UK from the EU.
Otherwise why are some of the Leavers here complaining that leaving will restrict the ability of them (or their families) to move to, and work in the EU?

Some consistency in the discussion would help.


01 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM (#3974382)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement"

Yes we do.

Firstly, non EU immigration has always been higher than EU immigration. That will not alter one iota.

Secondly, the rights of the UK to control it's borders are not undermined by the freedom of movement for EU citizens. I suggest you read the following to get the facts right.

Can the UK Control Its Borders if It Remains in the EU?

The complaint about restricting the rights to work and live in the EU by UK citizens is still valid as leaving the EU will make it more difficult. Not impossible, just difficult.


01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM (#3974387)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!
Jim Carroll


01 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM (#3974395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I can't help looking at these things through maths and formal logic.

Immigration is made up of two parts A and B. The declared government goal was that A+B must be less than C. Whether you can control A or not does not prevent the goal being reached providing (i) you can control B to any level you desire and (ii) A is less than C.

So if the immigration from the EU could not be restricted (which it could, but let's overlook that detail), it does not prevent the UK controlling its immigration to (almost) any level if it so wishes.


01 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM (#3974396)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

From the gruniard link above:
Theresa May, then home secretary, proudly stated in 2013 that her aim was to make the country a “hostile environment” for illegal immigrants. Since then the government has introduced ever more aggressive and intrusive checks.
Seems a spiffing idea to me, otherwise every Tom Dick and terrorist wouldbe invading our shores.Of course we never fell for that Schengen zone dreamed up by the globalists, that has spent the last couple of years unravelling.
In Jimmie's quaint world we would be demanding reparations off Hengist and Horsa, and William the conqueror, to name but a fanciful few.
We have a very thorough system for sifting those entitled to enter and those that are not. If the rest of the EU took the same care we would not have illegal immigrants crossing the channel in cockleshell boats.


01 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM (#3974399)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"The Financial Times has truly outdone itself with this unintentionally hilarious article from Economics Editor Chris Giles complaining that the British economy has actually been doing too well since the referendum. Which is an interesting position for supposedly the world’s leading financial newspaper to take…

Not content with just being mystified by the fact that people failed to do as they were told in the referendum, the FT is now bemused as to why the markets haven’t done as the FT wants either. Giles bemoans the fact that “relatively benign economics has emboldened politicians to harden their Brexit demands and refuse to compromise” and declares that “it is now too late for markets or the UK economy to exercise much discipline on Britain’s politics before the scheduled exit date of March 29”. Translation: it’s too late for a financial or economic crash to scare people into doing what the FT says they they should do…"

Don't you just luv it!


01 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM (#3974409)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time
Jim Carroll


01 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM (#3974411)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!

Jim Carroll


That must be a record. ask a question (almost) and complain, in the same thread, that there has been no response. I have not 'refused to comment'.

Jim,
Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond.


01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM (#3974412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on


01 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM (#3974415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM
"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on


Sorry, that still makes FA sense. Nor does it give me any clue about something you have asked me to which I have not responded.

If you are unable to actually ask a question, and direct it to me, do not be surprised if I do not answer it.


01 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM (#3974421)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.


01 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM (#3974423)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.


No, the EU could pass laws without our approval. With the exception of certain items on which we retained a 'veto', the passing of laws was by a majority vote (or, sometimes a 'qualified majority' vote).
We did not (and, currently, do not) have control of our borders. We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders. We can only check that they are actually EU members. We even allowed this immediately for certain 'accession' states (where other states delayed the acceptance of these persons).

Clearly your question is based on a misunderstanding.


01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM (#3974430)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.


01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM (#3974431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.


01 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM (#3974436)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval

Must be an aborigine in the dreamtime!

Since 1996, the UK had failed to block a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming EU law.

The UK had opposed 72 measures which went onto the statute book.

"DO YOU remember the lively debate in the Houses of Parliament about new laws to regulate noise from lawnmowers? Do you recall your MP seeking your views about measures to oblige homeowners to have their properties assessed for energy efficiency? Or reading the Government's consultation on the design of desk lamps?
   That is because they are among hundreds of laws which have been passed in the past 20 years without any meaningful public debate in this country. They have been forced upon us by EU directives which are stitched up by the European Commission, rubberstamped by the European Parliament and then ordered to be incorporated into British law.

Now, the think tank Open Europe has totted up the cost to the UK economy of the most burdensome EU laws. It comes to a staggering £27.4billion a year


01 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM (#3974437)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

Brexit has been examined mathematically and the proof has been solved
at long last by super computers and geniuses.


Brexit will continue to expand and accelerate as a phenomenon and a problem!


It is due to negative pressure, not positive pressure, as Dark Matters do


For Mathematicians - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwYSWAlAewc

btw
The USA was very fortunate that Albert Einstein exited Germany. It led to total victory over the Axis.


01 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM (#3974440)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time


As predictable as you destroying threads on a regular basis by introducing your pet hobbyhorses that have zilch to do with the thread.

If you wish to dive off at a tangent why not discuss daisies. At least that is a subject you may have some slight knowledge of, unlike most of what you pontificate on..

For example:
"refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis. This has jackshit to do with brexit." Fact:The world's top five major arms exporters are the United States, Russia, Germany, France and China. Together, they account for 74 percent of the total volume of exports. Talking about Britain in such a context merely displays your rabid anglophobia(again!)
If you want to babble on about it open your own thread, and then you can talk to yourself

I do not talk down to you. It would be a waste of my valuable time. I talk over you, I find it more productive. Conversations with cabbages are somewhat sterile.


01 Feb 19 - 04:34 PM (#3974443)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Nigel, you are simply trying to perpetuate the myth that unelected EU commissioners force laws on us. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most EU laws and regulations are passed by common consensus among the 28 states and they are generally good laws that no-one would wish to quarrel with. In the event of disagreement, votes in the European Parliament may be held, and there are various levels of veto available, particularly for larger and more influential states such as the UK. Very few laws have got through without UK agreement, approximately three percent in the last twenty years, and you would be very hard-pressed to tell me about any of real game-changing significance. In a club of 28 that is very good going. And UK domestic law is our business and ours alone, as with all other EU states. I've said all this so many times on this forum and all of it is checkable, but do feel free to stick to your leavers' catechism of received wisdom.

When we leave the EU and have to rely more on deals with the US and China, just watch how we will have to accept different standards, usually lower, without a say in the matter. What price sovereignty and taking control then, Nigel, especially when you consider that we'll also be taking rules from the EU with no say there either?


01 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM (#3974449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

It's no good presenting facts, Steve. I have already posted the truth about so called free movement within the EU and that was ignored. Maybe you will do better with the facts about the passing of laws but I seriously doubt it.

Never mind, eh. There are some advantages to leaving the UK government unfettered by EU human rights legislation and going back to the good old days of empire. We can start to shit on all our neighbours again ;-)


01 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM (#3974454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders.

Seeing as you obviously missed it in the link I posted, here are the relevant facts.

These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.
First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.
Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]
Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]


Got it? It really is simple. We control our own borders already.


01 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM (#3974464)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Thing is, Dave, for many years, migration from non-EU countries has exceeded migration from the EU yet there has been little fuss about it, little attempt to curb it nor any attempt to make it a political issue. Migration from the EU, which has always been extremely beneficial to this country and which almost never involves immigrants claiming benefits (the opposite, in fact, as most EU immigrants make a net contribution in terms of paying their taxes), has become talismanic for leavers. It's dishonest, disreputable and utterly unfair to those thousands of EU citizens who make a genuine contribution to this country, unlike some of those Tory off-shorers, non-doms and general corporate parasites who are about to cash in on brexit.


01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM (#3974473)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

You're casting pearls before swine, chaps. Don't waste the time and effort, the truth will become abundantly and horribly clear when May has driven us over the cliff-edge. Although, of course, you'll never get the Leave-voters to admit they fell for the BrexShit-Bullshit.


01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM (#3974474)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Actually in some ways going back to "the good old days of empire" could have what would be seen by its enthusiasts as highly unfortunate. In those days there were no legal controls on unlimited freedom of entry into the United Kingdom on the part of the entire population of all parts of that empire.


02 Feb 19 - 02:44 AM (#3974503)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

True, Kevin, but at least we could view the immigrants from Empire nations as lesser human beings ;-)

John. Nail on the head. They will never admit it and that is only human nature. It is very difficult to admit that you have been conned as some seem to think it indicates that they have been foolish. I can assure all you brexiteers out there who are now realising that you were indeed conned that there is no shame in it. You were conned by the best, who have had years of practice at leading the public up the garden path and had the weight of the popular press behind them. Let it go now. Admit that there is a problem. It is the first step to recovery :-)


02 Feb 19 - 03:06 AM (#3974509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

From the BBC - an indication of where we're headed when those wonderful post-BrexShit trade deals we've been promised begin to materialise. God help us!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119?SThisFB


02 Feb 19 - 03:14 AM (#3974510)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Yea but weer taking are cuntry back...


02 Feb 19 - 03:19 AM (#3974511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

LOL! :-)


02 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM (#3974513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

😂 😂 😂


02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM (#3974515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll


02 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM (#3974523)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Oh Dear! here we go again, more of little jimmies lies.
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain),

This is the at least the fifth time you have raised this pack of lies.
For the second time now you have qualified it by "possibly"
Teribus refuted your claims most admirably a long while back. Why keep raising it over and over and over again? Your anglophobia is getting rather boring.
Why not try posting facts? you may find it a novel experience. It would certainly be unique!
Your views on Arab Spring are naive to say the least. Try looking at it in the following context:False Flag

IT is time you woke up as to how the real world works. It is not a pretty chocolate box scene.


02 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM (#3974529)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

See my point fellers
His mentor, Teribus went though all the excuses - a lie, the licence was drawn up but never issued, it was rescinded, the order was far too early to have been used by the snipers, the bullets were the wrong size for use by the Syrian Army..... and several more.
His companion at the time in response to the fact that Britain was licensing such exports , ""all you can come up with is a few sniper rifles" - (his mistake)
The order for this ammunition is still on line yet these people continue to deny it   

Statement by Government Trade minister at the time
"We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that"."
HORSES MOUTH CONFESSION

Keep out of this Iains - it's for the adults
Jim Carroll


02 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM (#3974534)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Bloody Nora, Jim, IGNORE HIM! Cut him dead!


02 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM (#3974536)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

I am Steve
I just used his crassness as an opportunity to underline my point about Britain being implicated in the refugee crisis up to their sordid arses (just as I am using your posting now)
I was brought up with the philosophy that "if a point's woth making, it's worth making as often as possible"
Done and dusted, I think but thanks for the reminder
Jim


02 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM (#3974539)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

If he rattles on in his usual manner but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him. But not if we succumb to temptation and respond. That's been proven to be bloody useless in any case for a long time now.


02 Feb 19 - 07:18 AM (#3974541)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Any reaction will have him creaming his pants so just don't do it, Jim. Even talking about him rather than to him is fanning his flames so this is my last self defeating post. Complete blank is the only way.


02 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM (#3974542)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Meanwhile, quite number of Brexiteers are admitting the possibilities of an extension, most recently Rees-Mogg. At the moment they are saying it is only for sorting out stuff after a deal is agreed, but that looks like a start of movement.


02 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM (#3974544)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

The knock -on effect of the Brexiteer's use of populism is getting a little panic-making
First this fiasco, then the election of Trump (and a threatened conflict with North Korea), then the rise of neo-Nazism in Europe, Ireland could have gotten a racist President had not good sense and humanity prevailed....
Now we have the possible reopening of the Arms Race with Russia
I do hope they've forgotten to wind up the nuclear clock!!

" but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him."
I very much doubt it Steve
He is now using threads as a soap-box for his ideas (sic) and while he can he doesn't need us.
I ignore him because he says nothing I want to respond to but that shouldn't stop me (or anybody) using him to underline the crassness of Brexit
Will keep it down to minimum (off for a few days tomorrow - maybe by the time I return he will fall victim to Betjeman's "friendly bombs" along with Slough
Jim


02 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM (#3974551)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Yea but weer taking are cuntry back..."

Good to see the remainiacs display their erudition and good taste.
Perhaps they should be named collectively as coprolaliacs, or better still banned.


02 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM (#3974567)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

there are so many hundreds of posts on the 3 threads that urge us to look away from the forest (or consider a few trees in a couple of other irrelevant forests) and examine tiny details on the trees within it. it can be vaguely interesting to be sidetracked this way but then you stand back and look at the big, scary, pointless thing as a whole - and think.......them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!


02 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM (#3974571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

.them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!

There is many a slip twixt tongue and lip, and as yet, no arias from the fat lady! Alas alack.


02 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM (#3974582)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Just announced that Nissan are to pull Production of the new X-Trail SUV from their Sunderland plant, despite assurances given to them by the government in 2016 (source: BBC News).

Clearly, Nissan havevrealised that 'assurances' from May and her bunch of incompetents are worth Sweet FA.


02 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM (#3974586)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I feel awful for saying it but the fact that Sunderland voted firmly for brexit seems to have a certain element of karma...


02 Feb 19 - 02:34 PM (#3974587)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Some of us have been warning of such things for the past two and a half years.

I take absolutely no pleasure in saying I told you so.

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

I strongly suspect that this is the shape of things to come.

I wonder if our Brexiteers can cast a good spin of this ..........

....... but I doubt it, they tend not to respond to direct news.


02 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM (#3974588)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The history of these threads is that they will say firms expand and contract all the time so there is no evidence it has anything to do with Brexit.


02 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM (#3974591)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

2018/10/30

St. Petersburg, Russia — Nissan has started production of the new X-Trail crossover SUV at its St. Petersburg plant.

The X-Trail is Nissan's best-selling model worldwide and the key upgrades are a more contemporary exterior design, upgraded suspension, greater cabin refinement and additional innovative new Nissan Intelligent Mobility technologies.


02 Feb 19 - 03:29 PM (#3974592)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

More project fear. There are no publicised plans to either cease production of existing models, or layoff workers.

Be nice if you did a bit of fact checking first. But that would not leave you too much to discuss, would it?


02 Feb 19 - 05:09 PM (#3974604)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I am reminded of the "Yes Minister" script which describes the four stage strategy followed by the Foreign Office: First, "Nothing's going to happen"; Second, "Something may be going to happen, but we should do nothing about it"; Third, "Maybe we should do something, but there's nothing we can do"; and Fourth, "Maybe there was something we could've done, but it's too late now".

It seems that applies to things like the Sunderland reports.


03 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM (#3974636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Meanwhile back to the real world, not the imaginary one dreamed up by the kidergarten remainiac cabal here.

From the Torygraph and you gov:
Jeremy Corbyn’s popularity is at an all-time low because voters believe he is “playing politics” with Brexit and can not be trusted.

The Labour leader’s approval rating, which reached its peak in mid-2017 after the general election, has been on the slide ever since, hit by his failure to set out a clear policy on Brexit, and by the anti-Semitism controversy which has dogged his party for years.

A poll by YouGov found that voters who had changed their minds about Mr Corbyn described him as weak, indecisive and out of touch.

Not what even the most deluded here would call a ringing endorsement!
It seems Joe Public is on the money, razor sharp, and staunchly Brexit.
Fine fellows all!


03 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM (#3974643)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Good comment by Andrew Rawnsley following Oliver Letwin's speech in the house last week (in the event of problems after Brexit)

The Conservatives will own a nightmare Brexit and it will not just be Remain voters who will take their revenge on the Tory party. It will also be Leave voters. If Brexit goes horribly wrong, Leave voters are not going to find fault with themselves for being suckered by a bogus prospectus, unrealisable promises and a red bus emblazoned with a lie. Leave voters are going to blame the Tories for betraying them.


03 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM (#3974646)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Nice cartoon in the Sunday Times today shows Tess the Tosser signing for a delivery of a dozen crates of champagne and telling the delivery man - "no, I'm definitely not stockpiling - they're to celebrate when we win"
Jim Carroll


03 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM (#3974654)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Seems the Sunday times shows more contact with reality than the remainiacs.


03 Feb 19 - 09:32 AM (#3974669)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Nissan has confirmed it is abandoning plans to build a new model of one of its flagship vehicles at its Sunderland plant, as it warned that uncertainty over Brexit is affecting businesses."

Looks like those posting before were in the real world after all

Now for "Yes Minister" stage 3 or 4, I suspect.


03 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM (#3974684)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

(Nissan)It acknowledged in a letter to workers: “Today’s announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.” the X-Trail is produced in Japan currently and Nissan said keeping production there would reduce “upfront investment costs”.

“Nissan’s announcement is a blow to the sector and the region, as this was to be a further significant expansion of the site and the workforce.The company has confirmed that no jobs will be lost,

Calling the decision “very disappointing news” for Sunderland and the north-east”, the Unite union said it blamed Brexit uncertainty for the decision, along with the government’s “mishandling” of the transition away from diesel.


Nissan said plans over other future models destined for the Sunderland plant – the next-generation Juke and Qashqai – were unaffected by the announcement.

Someone (remainiacs) cannot read or are doing a gyroscopic spin of epic proportions and reporting false News.

Awkward things facts!!

It is the union attributing the decision to brexit, and what does a union know about the investment plans of a Nissan?


03 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM (#3974688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Iains: you know I am one of the few people still prepared to talk to you on this this thread but, like Keith (RIP) in times past, you make it difficult. Nissan said:

"The continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.”

If you do not think there is any connection between Brexit and our future relationship with the EU, I wonder what you do think.

The final paragraph or so was nothing but invective.

I said quite plainly earlier that I do not like to ignore people, but if it comes to it I will. Kindly stick to the facts as you see them and drop the insults.


03 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM (#3974700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman, said that the decision had been taken for "business reasons" affected by rules on diesel engines and reduced sales.

The announcement that the X-Trail would be built in Japan was made in a letter to staff that followed a day of political rows between Brexit supporters and opponents over the reason for one of Wearside's largest employers reneging on a 2016 decision to build the car there.

In the letter Mr de Ficchy said: "Today's announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.

"We have taken this decision for the business reasons I've explained but, clearly, the uncertainty around the UK's future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future."


I prefer the stated reasons given by Nissan's Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman.
obviously brexit creates uncertainty but he gives 3 clear reasons for retaining manufacture elsewhere,
1)The investment required would be considerable.
2)Actual and impending legislation on diesel engines
3)Delining sales

It is newspapers and the union attributing the sole reason to brexit.
I prefer to believe the information given first hand by the company that made the decision.

The Herald six hours ago using my same data comes out with the following headline:
Nissan chief attacks 'Brexit uncertainty' as company confirms new vehicle will be built in Japan not UK.

If that headline has not been spun to the point of being outright lies then tell me what I have misunderstood.

You must point what you mean by invective.(insulting, abusive, or highly critical language.)
I will accept highly critical, but I would regard that as a compliment given for well researched responses.


03 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM (#3974707)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

From the Sky news site. Not noted for any remain bias.

Gianluca de Ficchy said the decision was a mixture of investment needed for emissions regulations and reduced sales forecasts but added uncertainty over Brexit had also played a part.

Repeated verbatim with no need for further comment.

The article also states

Nissan has told staff in Sunderland the company will not make the new X-Trail there, as previously planned.

The production was previously planned for Sunderland and it no longer is. The European division chief states quite clearly that brexit "played a part" in the decision to move production. Brexit has played a part in loosing work in Sunderland. QED.


03 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM (#3974717)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll


Another long, and confusing diatribe. But I do seem to recognise a question hidden away in there: "Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?"
Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.
If refugees seek asylum in the UK, and it is their first port of call, we should accept them.
For all other possibilities, look at the UNHCR of 1951 and 1967


03 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM (#3974718)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Neither I, not anyone in this thread, nor any newspaper article I have read suggested Brexit was the *sole* reason for the Nissan decision. Creating false arguments to demolish is not very respectable.

As to what was an insult in your post: I credit you withenough intelligence to work it out for yourself.


03 Feb 19 - 09:28 PM (#3974735)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

So we can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over brexit. There, wasn't that easy? No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws. And you can bet your life that plenty of other companies are considering their positions for the same reason.

My mum has renewed her urgings to get me to apply for Irish citizenship, for which I qualify. Must get a grip on that...


03 Feb 19 - 09:40 PM (#3974738)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

No. We can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over the future of Diesel engined cars in the UK. My mum is now long dead.


04 Feb 19 - 01:54 AM (#3974766)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The decision, Stanron, was influenced by the future of diesal engines and by Brexit. Just as your choice for your next holiday is influenced by location and price. Or the songs you choose are influence by lyrics and melody.

It is not a difficult concept that decisions can be influenced by many things.


04 Feb 19 - 03:00 AM (#3974772)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel. Just a suggestion but it does make far more sense to create a link to another post or simply refer to the date and time rather than C&P the entire thing or whole swathes of it.


04 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM (#3974775)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Hard Brexiteers say only way forward is to remove the backstop

You will remember it was asked several times during the Brady amendment debate what "alternative arrangements" were. While 'Malthouse' was mentioned, it was definitely not declared by Brady or the government to be the only viable alternative. It is certainly possible that the amendment would not have been passed had that been the only possible interpretation.

The chances of the EU agreeing to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement are virtually zero. Dress it up as you like, but this looks like determined manoeuvring to get 'no deal' to me.


04 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM (#3974777)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

if scotland doesn't get her independence, providing us with somewhere more sensible and civilised to return to and you get your irish passport, steve. (sadly my irish granny was foolish enough to leave her kilkenny home to get born in liverpool. if only she had thought about me...) anyway, steve, will you do the decent thing and marry me. and then marry my wife - or the other way round. then we will go and live with our daughter who has just bought a holiday camp centre (14 rooms) in estonia for £20,000 (or 20,000 euros) and get stockpiling short range nuclear weapons and ibuprofen. or something. don't feel you have to join us there - you'll have done your bit for humanity. or insanity


04 Feb 19 - 03:45 AM (#3974779)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

It's frightening how a handful of MPs who are more concerned with keeping their fortunes intact than doing what is right can manipulate the government into a situation where the majority of the country will suffer.

Politics is broke and the only way I can see to recover is a drastic shift in the way we do things. My benign dictatorship is looking better by the minute...


04 Feb 19 - 05:00 AM (#3974795)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws.

Indeed! but rational discussion needs accurate reporting of facts.
Regarding the highlighting of inaccuracies as nitpicking does nothing to advance a counter argument, it merely demonstrates their meagreness


04 Feb 19 - 05:07 AM (#3974796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Sounds better than Theresa's deal, Pete!


04 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM (#3974801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.

For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.


04 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM (#3974803)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined."

Could we have a link to your source please?


04 Feb 19 - 11:54 AM (#3974829)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Er, and what about Lebanon, home of Hezbollah, then? :-) One Syrian refugee for every four Lebanese citizens? On top of half a million or so Palestinian refugees? They may not like 'em but they take 'em... Amazing how inconvenient the partial presentation of information can be, innit, bobad?


04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM (#3974838)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

Jesus Christ, Steve - don't wave the Palestinians in front of boobad, he'll launch into one of his regular psychotic episodes!!!


04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM (#3974839)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Lebanon is next door, all the way from Damascus to Homs. No surprise they take many refugees from the western instigated destruction of their country. Turkey takes the most, followed by Lebanon and Jorden.
Britain comes in at number 32, Russia at 35.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse. But they have given sanctuary to 1.5 million mainly Iraqi Kurds since 1991.
Those asylum seekers reaching the UK would have already made landfall in the EU and should have had their refugee legitimacy decided where they first made landfall.

"In the European Union, however, the 2003 Dublin II regulation determines which E.U. member state is obligated to process an asylum claim; if an asylum claim is made within 12 months of arriving in the E.U., the first E.U. country in which the asylum seeker arrived is responsible for processing the claim (after that, it’s the E.U. country where the person has lived for at least five months)."

Therefore it is no surprise the number granted asylum in the UK is relatively low. I do not believe the discussion ventured into a numbers game relative to the rest of the world, so I fail to see what point you are making.


04 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM (#3974841)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse.

Lol.....Canada is slightly further from Syria than is Iran.


04 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM (#3974846)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.

Could we have a link to your source please?"


Thought not.


04 Feb 19 - 01:59 PM (#3974850)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Derstinations Syrian refugees #


04 Feb 19 - 04:01 PM (#3974862)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

If we took pro rata according to population the same number of refugees as Lebanon we'd take as many Syrian refugees as people who voted remain. There, back on topic!


04 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM (#3974865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

Nearly five hundred posts about a futile gesture so far.


04 Feb 19 - 04:49 PM (#3974867)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle

How futile would a futile gesture have to be to make it so futile, it would be futile to comment?

I suppose its futile wondering about these things.....


05 Feb 19 - 03:29 AM (#3974900)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Tic Toc!
Not too long to wait now for brexit.
Dissent is a futile gesture.


05 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM (#3974903)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Jeremy and rare moments of lucidity

From Guido, of courae!


05 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM (#3974905)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

multi national capitalism pulls the strings


05 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM (#3974910)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.

https://unherd.com/2019/02/how-parliament-disdains-the-people/


05 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM (#3974913)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

multi national capitalism pulls the strings

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.


05 Feb 19 - 05:10 AM (#3974916)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.
Not to be confused with Berk


05 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM (#3974926)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.

Funny that Trump wanted to pull out of Nafta. It seems if you are a poorly educated worker your job may well evaporate, along with the tariffs. Just as in the EU jobs have shrunk in the west as EU grants and a lower cost base encourage relocating some manufacturing to the east.
Sadly the remainiacs think they know the cost of everything but know the value of nothing.
Globalism destroys the employment opportunities of the unskilled and especially younger workers.
Unemployment of those under 26 EU
Greece 44%
Spain 34%
Italy 32%
Croatia 24%
Cyprus 22%
Portugal 21%
France 20%
UK 11.5%
Germany5%

"Investor confidence has plummeted to a four-year low in the Eurozone, with a sixth consecutive monthly fall in the Sentix index taking it to its lowest level since November 2014. Sentix said Eurozone growth was “weaking dangerously quickly and strongly.” Meanwhile Germany’s investor morale dropped to its lowest level since August 2012 in a separate index as it teeters on the brink of recession…

Naturally Brexit is being blamed, despite the UK currently having higher investor confidence and the fastest growing European economy in the G7. It’s one thing for underperforming companies to use Brexit as an excuse for their poor results. It’s quite another for underperforming EU countries to use it as an excuse for why they’re doing worse than the UK…"


05 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM (#3974929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

From Larry Elliott in the Guardian:

Britain’s pivotal services sector has posted its weakest performance since the immediate aftermath of the EU referendum amid growing signs that Brexit uncertainty has slowed the economy to stall speed.

The latest health check of a sector that accounts for almost 80% of UK output showed services companies starting to reduce staff numbers in response to a decline in new business.

Following downbeat news from the manufacturing sectors, the closely watched survey of services from the Chartered Institute of Procurement and Supply and IHS Markit heightened concerns that the UK’s planned exit from the EU at the end of March would be accompanied by an economy flirting with recession.


I just love to give the brexiteers hereabouts something to scrabble about with to see if they can blame anything they can find, ANYTHING but brexit...


05 Feb 19 - 09:31 AM (#3974940)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Paul Staines, former bankrupt and convicted drink driver, or Edmund Burke, great statesman. I think I know who I would listen to on the subject of parliamentary democracy.


05 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM (#3974950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Edmund Burke, great statesman?

In May 1778, Burke supported a parliamentary motion revising restrictions on Irish trade. His constituents, citizens of the great trading city of Bristol, however urged Burke to oppose free trade with Ireland. Burke resisted their protestations and said: "If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong.
His electorate extracted their revenge 2 years later and he lost his seat.
It is noteworthy that he represented (corrupt)rotten boroughs for the rest of his Parliamentary career. Why was that I wonder?

A lesson some modern MPs would do well to heed!


05 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM (#3974975)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

We still have our own "St Valentine's Day" to get through. It is incredibly hard to predict what will still be standing by the end of it. We may have whittled the options down to one. Or none. Or they could all still be around.

Or, perhaps, for some on each side -

He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.


05 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM (#3974989)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

You have to ask if some people read the quotes they are about to post.

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

We could do with some more like him.


05 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM (#3974996)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

and come election time his constituents ensured his ass was grass! and they mowed it most thoroughly.


05 Feb 19 - 03:56 PM (#3974998)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

There is a certain inconsistency in the posting by remainiacs here.
On the one hand they argue an MP should vote (as instructed by the whips)as guided by his superior knowledge(Does anyone, other than a lefty, really believe such nonsense?) and on the other hand encourage them to lie through their teeth and deliberately deceive their electorate in order to be elected. They then try to explain away the deliberate lying by calling it real politik.

A reminder:MPs backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.
Shortly after there was an election with both main parties supporting brexit.
The subsequent beviour of remainiac MPs suggests they will lie cheat and steal from their grannies in order to be re elected, and see no harm in betraying their electorate in many constituencies.

The next election will be a grand settling of scores and probably remap British politics for a considerable period of time.


05 Feb 19 - 04:13 PM (#3975000)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate.


05 Feb 19 - 04:37 PM (#3975005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate."
As jefferson wrote:(roughly) These truths are self evident!

The link below elaborates a little.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/02/principles-for-reselections-and-deselections.html


05 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM (#3975008)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

At the very least, the MP is charged with looking after not only the interests of his or her constituents, but also those who are too young to vote and the interests of future generations to come. It is very common for the short term desires and the long term interests to differ. To that extent at least, the MP is duty bound to go against what some current voters might wish in the wider interests of the country.


05 Feb 19 - 08:17 PM (#3975033)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The transaction between an MP and his or her constituents is very simple. The MP is not obliged to cowtow to the wishes of the constituents. The constituents are not obliged to re-elect that MP. Every MP has thousands of constituents who would far rather have someone else "representing" them. And in no way can constituents regard their MP as their delegate. Naturally, it would be an outrage if an elected member serially disregarded their party's manifesto, but that's fine because the constituents have the remedy which won't be long in coming. Both major parties overwhelmingly voted for the referendum and for Article 50. Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion. As now, hundreds of MPs ignored the best interests of the country. That was a dereliction of duty and a kick in the bollocks for democracy. The undemocratic referendum campaign was the icing on the cake. In terms of knock-on effects, this is going to go down as one of the worst periods in history, and not just for this country.


06 Feb 19 - 01:55 AM (#3975059)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

You are right on what the relationship is, Steve, and that is very much Burke's stance. What I was trying to do was give a reason WHY that is the relationship.


06 Feb 19 - 02:52 AM (#3975062)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Absolutely correct Steve. For the feeble-minded amongst us who have the mistaken idea that MPs must do their constituents bidding (which would, of course, be impossible in most instances, because the MP has no way of knowing what his constituents' wishes on the vast majority of issues are) it's all explained in this piece


06 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM (#3975063)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson

Britain’s latest horror in Ireland: they’re talking about burying their nuclear waste in Northern Ireland.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/02/05/radioactive/

Surely Downings Street would be better?

Seriously, if they want to revive the IRA, what better plan?


06 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM (#3975078)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion

Let us reword this in simple terms that all can understand. Many MPs put political survival and self interest top of the list when it came to voting for article 50 and during electioneering for the recent election. TO merely say they were gutless seriously understates the severity of the problem.
Having secured their sinecures by lies and a distinct lack of integrity and honour, they now are hellbent on betraying the mandate instructed by the recent referendum. Both parties put out their stands on the basis of honouring the result. Their behaviour now shows their true colours. It is a sad sad day when the Beast of Bolsover is the only MP in the house to publicly display his consistency and integrity. Many Mps have shown themselvesto be grubby little people. This will not be forgotten.
There are many quotes concerning Burke but it is as well to remember real politik. After betraying his Bristol electorate his subsequent parliamentary career was to represent Malton, another pocket borough under the Marquess of Rockingham's patronage. His latter parliamentary catreer was never legitimised by a proper election.
As has been pointed out many times both parties vowed to honour the referendum result. To betray the outcome betrays democracy and takes us into uncharted waters. No amount of petty nitpicking by remainers can alter this. Politicians rule over us with our consent.

If that consent is withdrawn whither next?


06 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM (#3975100)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Those who backed Brexit with no plan deserve "special place in hell'


That doesn't sound as if May can expect much movement on Thursday to me once I anticipate it might be overlooked, it is the absence of a plan that merits the special place, not Brexit as such.


06 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM (#3975101)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

As Guido eloquently states:
This kind of arrogant derision from EU elites is exactly why we voted to leave in the first place…


06 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM (#3975103)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I repeat: his comment is against those who pushed Brexit without a plan. Not those who pushed Brexit in itself.

Do you think it was a good idea to push without a plan? If you think a plan was important, outrage that somebody said so is a bit confected.


06 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM (#3975109)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

A plan has to be there before negotiation. We are now at the end, or near the end, of two years of negotiation. The EU complains about Mrs May's red lines, yet now bandies accusations about no plans. At least one of these complaints must be unfounded.


06 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM (#3975111)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Not so, Stanron. The red lines set out what you are not prepared to change in any final agreement, but not what the goal is.

A plan is how to achieve that unstated goal.

A plan should be there before you begin a negotiation, but it was not. That is why Tusk referred to a special place in hell for them.


There is no inconsistency.


06 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM (#3975112)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

The red lines indicate that there was a plan. In a negotiation plan details get altered as part of the two way process. If either side got all of their initial plan through without any change then there can not have been any negotiation.

Tusk is merely having an ill tempered whinge. Maybe he knows something is waiting in the wings.


06 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM (#3975118)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Red lines saying you don't want are no sort of a plan, sorry.

Someone referred me to a nice cartoon a while back. I don't think it was on Mudcat, but apologies if it was. It concerned two MPs trying to order lunch in a restaurant. "Neither of us want the soup, I definitely don't want the salmon and he won't have the pate."


06 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM (#3975120)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson

Burke, by the way, was Irish - a Dubliner educated (in other words permanently resident during most of his childhood) in the Quaker school at Ballitore in Co Kildare; his study still exists there, unchanged and unknown to anyone except the two elderly bachelor brothers who own the house in front of the one where it's concealed.


06 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM (#3975121)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

So now that Tusk acknowledges that the whole thing since calling the referendum has been in the name of internal political party division, when is he going to get his act together and make sure that the majority of the UK population who are caught in the crossfire are protected form all this. Whether or not he likes the fact, we are all members of an EU state and have the same rights as the rest of the EU.


06 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM (#3975127)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Theresa May's red lines were drawn well after the push for brexit, during which push there patently wasn't a plan. In fact, she wasn't even in charge, and she wasn't even one of those pushing for brexit. You have it somewhat arse about face, Stanron.

And well said, Donald Tusk, by the way.


06 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM (#3975170)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou

Here's a little song for you all (Daily Mail) to the tune of 'Daisy, Daisy':-

Brexit, Brexit, time to say toodle-oo.
We want exit, Brussels it's up to you
To end this unhappy marriage,
Although we keep Nigel Farage,
Just set us free
and you will see
We'll shake hands with a new EU!


06 Feb 19 - 05:01 PM (#3975184)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Nice one Sen. I like it.


06 Feb 19 - 05:15 PM (#3975188)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Sorry Senoufou, not only is that childish, it's passing the buck to the EU for a situation that the UK has created.

The UK created this debacle it is up the UK to present a solution instead of blaming "Johnny Foreigner"

Having said that I'm not surprised that it was printed in the Mail.


06 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM (#3975190)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Couldn't agree more, Raggytash. We are in a terrible situation and levity concerning the crisis is not only unfunny but also totally misplaced.


06 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM (#3975192)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is only up to the EU to decide if the UK's proposals meet their objectives. There is no obligation on the EU to accept what it thinks is a bad deal. "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.


06 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM (#3975203)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

DMcG wrote: "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.


Good. Let's go for no deal. The UK hard left have demonstrated their total lack of good humour.


07 Feb 19 - 01:34 AM (#3975217)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I think you are misunderstanding, Stanron. The point is the UK *does* want a deal as expressed by all the Malthouse compromise stuff. But the EU is under no obligation to accept it. Of the UK had not wanted deal it could have said so something like 18 months ago and just worked for that.


07 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM (#3975226)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Well Stanron, you seem to regard Jeremy Corbyn as hard left, and he has written to May laying out the conditions for a deal that he would support. The choice seems to be between this and remain. May cannot get anything through the commons without opposition party support.


07 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM (#3975231)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Corbyn is a grubby little opportunist. Now all can see him for what he is.


07 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM (#3975232)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

An interesting snippet:
"Accordingly, on the basis of the EU's own view of what is legally allowed under Article 50 and on the basis of which the negotiations proceeded, the backstop in its present form is illegal as a matter of EU law. The Attorney-General of the UK came to a similar conclusion in paragraph 17 of his advice to the government of 13 November 2018. It could also be argued that the backstop is inconsistent with the aim of the Treaty on the European Union to promote peace (expressed in its Article 3) since it is inconsistent with the institutional provisions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and therefore undermines it.
EU law provides for a specific procedure for ensuring the legality of an envisaged international agreement before it is concluded. The procedure is set out in Article 218(11) TFEU and is regularly used."


07 Feb 19 - 05:59 AM (#3975247)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Today's light relief

Insults by EU unacceptable, say people who regularly compare it to Hitler

:D tG


07 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM (#3975268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Corbyn seems to be the only one looking for middle ground though. I don't entirely agree with him, I think we should just stay in. But he is at least looking for a compromise.


07 Feb 19 - 07:37 AM (#3975272)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who preached against the 21st Century European Empire to an Ireland asked to vote again because they gave the wrong answer in the first vote? The leader of the party supporting a second vote for the UK because they gave the wrong answer to the first vote?

Principles and consistency or what?


07 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM (#3975273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

For people supposedly in favour of Brexit, the Brexiteers seem quite upset that Corbyn is listing ideas for discussion which would enable Labour to support it.


07 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM (#3975274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

As Betty Boothroyd commented in her fine Brexit speech the other day

"If a democracy can't be allowed to change it's mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

Going on later to quote Harold Wilson

"Anyone who claimed that membership of the European community was a black and white issue was either a charlatan or a simpleton."

There appear to be a few of each on here...


07 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM (#3975275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I thought corbyn imposed a 3 line whip for article 50. They already support brexit, unless they have been lying to us.


07 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM (#3975277)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

" they gave the wrong answer in the first vote?"
No - Ireland doesn't hold referenda to get "the right answer" it does so as the feelings of the voters obliviously shift - that way we got same sex marriage, 20ist century rights to pregnancy termination rights and are set fair to gain divorce reforms in line with the rest of the world - none of which would have been obtained had the early decisions have remained carved in stone
Europe doesn't have an "


07 Feb 19 - 08:26 AM (#3975278)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Whoops
Europe doesn't have an "Empire" though I would guess it takes an ex-Imperial power to describe co-operation between States without having Britain at the helm as such

Also reported that Britain's economy on the point of stalling thanks to uncertainty about Brexit and has so far cost the country £64.5bn since the referendum.
Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco
Jim Carroll


07 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM (#3975282)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Wonderfully off topic as usual.


07 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM (#3975284)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

There is nothing in any way undemocratic about providing people a chance to think again about an important decision. "Are you sure?" Is a perfectly reasonable question. It's even built into the legal system when it comes to divorce proceedings, withered there is always a "decree nisi" before any divorce takes effect.

In analogous circumstances referendums on the EU have been rerun after an initial "no" vote in three countries - Ireland, Denmark and Norway. In Ireland and Denmark the result of the second referendum was that people voted the other way - and in both countries there is now overwhelming support for EU membership. In Norway the second referendum confirmed the result of the first, and currently public opinion on membership is still split down the middle.

Does anyone claim that these countries are somehow less democratic than the UK?


07 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM (#3975292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"obliviously shift"
Obviously shift - obviously
Jim Carroll


07 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM (#3975293)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Well if you are going to bring divorce into it, how about this? In most divorces a partner who has contributed to the marriage gets a proportion of the assets on leaving, not a bill. The UK has contributed more to the EU budget than it has received. We should be getting our share of the assets back as we leave. Not paying a bill.


07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM (#3975295)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Now that is argument of someone who thinks we have the upper hand in the negotiations...


07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM (#3975296)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

The EU had many children sired by the UK. We should let the EU keep the house and pay maintenance to support the children...


07 Feb 19 - 10:01 AM (#3975297)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

You people are weird.


07 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM (#3975298)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I find the term 'you people' weird.


07 Feb 19 - 10:22 AM (#3975300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco"


And this would be the self-same Boris Johnson who, the morning after the referendum, emerged from his front door looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights, with "Oh fuck, that wasn't supposed to happen!" written all over his ugly face, and who promptly shat his boxers and ran away when it was suggested that he should take charge of the BrexShit process?

He's a shameless POS.


07 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM (#3975306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"You people are weird."
I find people who make statements and refuse to reply to responses even weirder - sort of "none so deaf...." if you know what I mean
I didn't bring divorce into anything I used it as an example of how people are prone to changing their minds when the consequences become clear to them - not catered for in the UK
You ignore, your compatriot Nigel does a runner
He who refusees to fight, but runs away
Lives to run another day - as they say
Jim Carroll


07 Feb 19 - 11:08 AM (#3975313)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Dissent in the Labour ranks. Brought by the illustrious Guido(of course)

https://order-order.com/2019/02/07/leslie-tells-corbyn-pick-phone-maduro/

You would think they would concentrate on Brexit,but with corbyn at the helm perhaps not!


07 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM (#3975319)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

More good news from the IMF.
"I'm no great follower of the economic predictions which the IMF is prone to make, but when it is downgrading so many EU economies (especially Germany and France) and forecasting that the UK is likely to enjoy the best economic growth – despite Brexit – we should listen."

http://www.cityam.com/272046/despite-apocalyptic-brexit-warnings-good-news-keeps-coming

Here comes the gold. Perhaps frankincense and myrrh come after the 29th March when we kick the wise(?) men of Brussels into touch.


07 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM (#3975337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Bank of England have said that Britain is facing the slowest rise in the economy for over a decade thanks to Brexit
Jim Carroll


07 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM (#3975338)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

HAPPY DAYS are HERE AGAIN - DEFINITELY NOT
Jim Carroll


07 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM (#3975339)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Happy days are here again?
Perhaps.


07 Feb 19 - 02:20 PM (#3975342)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

******* Becket..... !!!
See one of his plays and your glad he got stabbed in the cathedral
She's wasted on Castle though !!!
Jim


08 Feb 19 - 03:26 AM (#3975419)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Just got it Jim - :-D

Lovely quote posted by a friend on Facebook (Thanks Maureen)

"“I’m going to deliver it on time,” she carried on. “That’s what I’m going to do for the British public.” It is scarcely worth repeating that half the country doesn’t want it delivered on time. They don’t want it delivered at all. At some point, in the near and far too late future, it’s possible she’ll work out she should never have pretended to be Winston Churchill, charged with some sacred mission to deliver Britain to its promised land. The promised land will be terrible. She knows it, and not only can she not say it, she can’t extend her emotional range to acknowledge that she is dragging at least half her country kicking and screaming towards it."
-Tom Peck in today's Independent


08 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM (#3975420)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I was trying to post the link to that piece earlier, Dave, but I couldn't get it to work. Tom Peck says precisely what I was thinking when I saw that interview yesterday - the dead eyes, the grimacing mouth...the lights were on, but there was no-one home.


08 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM (#3975424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique

Link


08 Feb 19 - 04:18 AM (#3975433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks for the link, Monique.

Out of interest, I think you are in France aren't you? If so, what is the general French view of Brexit?


08 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM (#3975434)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Donald Tusk tells Theresa May that Jeremy Corbyn plan could end Brexit deadlock

What is the betting that May will not go for any part of Corbyn's plan and it will still be his fault?


08 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM (#3975449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Thanks for the link, Monique."
Ditto
One of the things Britain has totally failed to grasp is that it is their choice and their problem so pointing fingers and blaming everybody else for the ongoing mess is cowardly and stupid
This crass decision has impacted on so many other people who are forced to clean up after the mess that is Brexit and still May is demanding that they compromise to accommodate her - how insane can this get before somebody pulls the plug?
Britain is now an international laughing-stock alongside Comb-over Trump
Jim Carroll


08 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM (#3975456)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I find it impossible to have any respect for a man who lacks the spine to admit he's bald.


08 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM (#3975461)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Would that also have applied to John Wayne?


08 Feb 19 - 06:45 AM (#3975464)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Reported on Guardian live:
Donald Trump is being urged to play hardball with the UK when it negotiates a trade deal with the US after leaving the EU, Huffington Post reports.

It says the US Department of Trade asked industry what the president should extract from post-Brexit Britain and the answers from lobbyists for big firms included:

* Changing how NHS chiefs buy drugs to suit big US pharmaceutical companies

* Britain scrapping its safety-first approach to safety and food standards.

* Law changes that would allow foreign companies to sue the British state.

* Removing protections for traditional British products.


08 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM (#3975465)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

So much for 'Taking back control'!


08 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM (#3975467)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is remarkably well aligned with what Raab, Patel and others argued in favour of in Britannia Unchained, so there is no need to delude ourselves that no UK government would agree.


08 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM (#3975473)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

It's not exactly a secret, we've known for a long time what the intentions of the Trump-led US government are with regard to a trade agreement with the Brexited, exposed and, in comparative terms, considerably weaker UK. And, of course, they will have us firmly by the testicles.

And still, the Brexshiteers blunder on towards the brink...the extent of their idiocy is breathtaking.


08 Feb 19 - 07:57 AM (#3975480)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

The US's desire for laws making it okay for companies to sue states is nothing new: I think this was a possibility within the EU. And of course they were lobbying the EU on similar terms, which was one argument I heard in favour of coming out.

What do we want with their stuff anyway? Odd bit of good music, what else is there? Spam like in the war? Suppose it might come to that though :(

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/07/disaster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment


08 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM (#3975497)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

The only problem is that it is an article from a rabid leftwing newspaper desperate to peddle anything that makes a case for resisting Brexit. It is purely conjecture and the articles author, Mr Monbiot is a treehugger of some repute, so impartiality when reporting is hardly one of his fortes.
I also think the entire subject of rolling back safety standards is simply a canard.

From my own experience the safety culture in the oil industry is virtually identical worldwide. Much of the present safety regime stems directly from the UK Piper Alpha disaster and resulting public enquiry. I would suggest that winding back safety legislation is far more difficult than introducing it. Do you seriously believe safety regimes in industry would be rolled back without the workers having some say in the matter?

More project fear I am afraid. Rather like producing economic forecasts dating from Dec. in order to belittle GDP of the UK relative to the EU. Better to wait until the government releases the actual figures for 4th quarter growth (due on the 11th Feb). Comparing GDP growth of countries based on actual figures becomes a silly pastime when comparing it to UK estimates dreamed up by the Bank of England. After all the Bank Of England has previous form when it comes to producing hopelessly incorrect estimates.


08 Feb 19 - 09:52 AM (#3975504)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The regulations people seem to be focused on are things like food standards, which do vary greatly all over the world. If you don't think Monbiot is suitable, look at the Huffington Post article. Or better still the original documents sent to the US government. They are not hard to find ("Negotiating Objectives for a U.S.-United Kingdom Trade Agrement")


08 Feb 19 - 09:56 AM (#3975505)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The only oil I eat is extra virgin olive oil.


08 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM (#3975511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Whale oil beef hooked!


08 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM (#3975518)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

If anyone is in any doubt as to the fact that the Tories created this fuck up, listen to one of your own

Baroness Warsi on Brexit.


08 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM (#3975537)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I see the link is through farcebook. Says it all really!


08 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM (#3975550)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

??????


08 Feb 19 - 12:42 PM (#3975553)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Farage forming a new political party. From Guido the leading source of news on brexit.

!!!!!!!
Cannot wait for the new show to hit the road!


08 Feb 19 - 01:03 PM (#3975561)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

That Farage and others have registered a new party named "Brexit" has been widely reported. That is, I think, a Project Fear worthy of the name. It is quite possible that the party gathers a lot of those in search of The One True Brexit, and like all single issue parties it will probably be very reticent on what else it stands for. It could highly dangerous and will feed on the resentments over Brexit whatever the outcome. We need to be very alert to the risks.


08 Feb 19 - 05:29 PM (#3975598)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

For those incapable of following links to videos, here is a transcript of Barroness Warsi's interview in The Independent

States early on

The peer, who served in a number of roles under David Cameron when he was Prime Minister, admitted that the EU referendum was held to keep the Conservative Party together and insufficient plans were made for Britain voting to leave the EU.


08 Feb 19 - 05:57 PM (#3975601)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

A piece from The New Statesman carefully explaining the nature of the Abusive Relationship the UK now has with the EU, brought about by the shameful behaviour of Brexiteers, and their ridiculous word-twisting and over-reaction to Mr. Tusk's 'special place in Hell' comment.


09 Feb 19 - 02:59 AM (#3975635)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Jonn Elledge is spot on with his analysys, BWM. Trouble is, he refers to EU countries such as France and Germany as allies and our rabid brexiteers don't like that. They will remind you about WW1 and WW2. When you point out that we allied ourselves with France and Belgium in those conflicts they will remind you about Agincourt. When you remind them that we were allied with The Low Countries in the 100 years war they will probably struggle unless they can dredge up some sea battles with the Dutch. Chances are they will just call you a traitor and collaborator and say that even if we are not at war with them, we should be. After all, they are European, eat babies and want to shag your wife. And that's before they start on the New Statesman being a communist mouthpiece for Soviet domination ;-)


09 Feb 19 - 03:31 AM (#3975639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I like the cut of his jib!


https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/17356118.letter-mps-will-be-finished-if-they-go-back-on-brexit/

No wishy washy signs of appeasement from him.


09 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM (#3975640)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It seems the contract with the Ferry Company With No Ships has been cancelled. But I was struck by the curious phrase 'no taxpayer money has been paid'. Surely the more natural phrase would be 'no money has been paid' which obviously includes the former phrase. As it is, the phrase suggests money has been paid, but not directly attributable to current taxes.


09 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM (#3975643)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...


09 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM (#3975645)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...
Jolly good distraction techniques to divert attention from labour. They have many problems.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/luciana-berger-labour-members-antisemitism


09 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM (#3975647)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I think it more likely money has come out of some government fund that is not directly related to current taxpayers, but is of course (after sufficient back and forth between accounts and departments and relabelling) still ultimately from either the current taxpayers or, via debt, from future taxpayers.


09 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM (#3975665)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

I see Grayling has cancelled the ferry contract awarded to the firm with no boats. That seems like sound policy to me. I applaud them for seeing sense on this.


09 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM (#3975666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place.


09 Feb 19 - 10:07 AM (#3975694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money
What moron hands out a massive amounbt of cash to a shipping line with no ships and no lace to land them if they had them ?
Sums up the standards of our politicians perfectly in my opinion
Jim Carroll


09 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM (#3975697)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money

Typical unfocused un-researched kneejerk reaction.

No tax payers money was involved has been very clearly stated by all sources.


09 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM (#3975699)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Awkward things facts!


Ferry firm will get no moneuy upfront


09 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM (#3975702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Whether taxpayers money is involved depends on who you believe, who you count as a taxpayer and how you apportion costs. Here is a different viewpoint:


Keeping the site open is costing local taxpayers £7,224 a day, according to a local source, and the council – which has already spent months in fruitless negotiations with Seaborne – had proposed shutting it down to help balance the books.

The DfT persuaded the council to keep it open, claiming that talks with Seaborne were at an “advanced stage”, according to Paul Messenger, a local Conservative councillor.

He said the port was costing about £2m a year: “That’s why we haven’t got any road sweepers, that’s why we haven’t got any public lavatories.”


09 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM (#3975709)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

LAID OUT SO FAR TO MAKE UP FOR BREXIT LOSSES
Jim Carroll


09 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM (#3975712)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.

Does that mean that everyone who worked on the contract tendering process did so without pay, that all the office space and on costs were free .......... together with all the other associated costs.






Mind you some people seem to believe in Unicorns too!


09 Feb 19 - 11:52 AM (#3975715)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place."

Apologies - I omitted 'incompetent' from the above in error. Should say, "I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving, incompetent twunts in the first place".

Grayling must qualify for the title 'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'.


09 Feb 19 - 12:00 PM (#3975718)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.


In normal circumstance I would agree, Raggy. Any competent business drawing up such a contract would include all sorts of penalty clauses to do with cancellation.

However, this company was the one using pizza delivery t&c's, so it is believable they *were* that incompetent.


09 Feb 19 - 12:09 PM (#3975720)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'."
Puts him first in line as next leader of the Tory Party I would think
Can't think of anybody more qualified - can anybody ?
Jim carroll


09 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM (#3975725)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Even Pizza delivery has on costs!


09 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM (#3975742)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I suppose it is only right that a folk music site should encompass the noble art of pin dancing, as exemplified above.
Meanwhile tic toc!


10 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM (#3975836)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

St Jeremy of the allotment is having his wings singed in the press today.Even the Guardian/Observer has this to say:
Corbyn’s leadership is under withering fire. He is attacked, again, for a perceived failure to effectively combat antisemitism within the party, in the case of Wavertree MP Luciana Berger. His support for Venezuela’s discredited socialist experiment has drawn more fire. He faces threats from a number of MPs to quit the party altogether. And on Brexit, to date, he has been, at best, ambivalent about following stated conference policy and, at worst, duplicitous.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686593/Jeremy-Corbyns-40-years-plots-lies-intimidation-chaos.html
Jeremy Corbyn's 40 years of plots, lies, intimidation and chaos: Chilling biography tells how Labour leader followed Lenin and Trotsky's bloody footprint - seize power, purge moderates, crush dissent and leave the dirty work to others

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/09/no-wonder-feminists-have-had-enough-jeremy-corbyn-fellow-brocialists/

Seems a concerted effort to highlight the chappie's failings. It rather destroys the credibility of the doyen? of the left. Perhaps the movers and shakers are fed up with his endless posturing, especially with a potential split in the offing. I wonder if those responsible have been learning from the Democrats mistakes? Their engineered takedown is turning into a fiasco.
Interesting times!.


10 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM (#3975839)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Interesting new idea afoot according to the Guardian website. Parliament could be asked to accept May's deal on condition that there would then be a referendum with a simple choice, May's deal or remain. I can see that gaining ground. Not keen meself. I don't like referendums and I think I that May's deal is a terrible idea. The temptation could be that it's likely to be the only way to break the deadlock, and there would be no objection from the EU.


10 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM (#3975842)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is an interesting idea. I doubt, though, that a referendum without a 'no-deal' option would be approved by Parliament. The Brexiteers would demand it, and few politicians will be prepared to sign up for something the Mail & co will present as 'defying the will of the people', however dubious such an assertion might be.


10 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM (#3975848)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

As a recent survey showed that many people thought that no deal meant remain, having both no deal and remain as a choice would just confuse them.

What has happened to our education system? :-(


10 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM (#3975850)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

What has happened to our education system? :-(

Now that is a topic and a half! Best kept off this thread, though.


10 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM (#3975859)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Best kept off this thread, though.
Yes indeed,otherwise the educational failings of remainiacs might rise to the fore!


10 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM (#3975861)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies facing a backlash in the next election for failing to cowtow to "the will of the people." Pardon me for being cynical.


10 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM (#3975865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

It is the will of the people elects them. They either pay attention, or find alternative employment.


10 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM (#3975878)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The simplest way to keep it off the referendum is to recognise that Parliament has already voted a week or two against a no deal. But I share your cynicism, Steve: it could be voted against as you suggest because of that fear, or amended to add a no deal because of that selfsame fear. Or call it self interest if you prefer.


10 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM (#3975960)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve: "We're told that almost no-one wants no-deal"

That's the problem. Some people just believe what they are told.
When Cameron suggested a referendum I'm sure he was told Remain would win it. People on this site seemed to think it was a forgone conclusion. The reality was something different.

If you were to say that "very few MPs want no-deal" then you may well be correct. But the majority of MPs (apparently) favoured Remain anyway, so that would not stretch credibility.
What the people of the country want in the current situation has yet to be tested, but the latest referendum is still the 2016 one, and a majority (of those who voted) voted to leave the EU.


10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM (#3975963)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Nitpicking once again Nigel.

Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.

I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.

I would have hoped that after over two and a half years you may have been able to come up with some things to make me think that Brexit may have some beneficial outcomes for the UK.

Sadly I'm still awaiting such .............

Over to you.


10 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM (#3975981)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I do like the way remainiacs like to ignore an adherence to facts by dismissing it as nitpicking. This same wilful disregard for reality is of course the reason Labour, when in power, always makes such a shambles of the economy. However we are quite safe. Under the realm of Corbyn labour can only wilt.No one, but no one, would trust him as PM.


10 Feb 19 - 04:02 PM (#3975984)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.


10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM (#3975986)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal.


For the record, as that sentence was explicitly directed to me, it is worth noting I read it in the sense I believe it was intended - that the 'almost no-one' related to the people in Parliament already referenced in the sentence. That the content of the universal can be interpreted in different ways is beside the point, common to almost every sentence in English using universals and, yes, nit-picking.


10 Feb 19 - 04:07 PM (#3975988)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

cross-posted there, Steve.


10 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM (#3975992)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Cheers, DMcG. As we used to say oop north, you'll never see what I'll buy you!


10 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM (#3975996)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

I THINK CORBYN WOULD BE A GOOD PRIME MINISTER


10 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM (#3976004)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I think the Tories are frightened of him

Why 15-page Jeremy Corbyn 'hatchet job' shows Tories are taking him seriously

He must be doing something right.

But if course all of this is just to take the heat of the complete cock up they have made over brexit.


10 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM (#3976005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and into the valley of death ride the...


10 Feb 19 - 06:42 PM (#3976015)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.


Yes, but if your comments were allowed to ride we would be accepting that "almost no-one wants no-deal". If you wish to clarify the comment, then do so.
I may be alone in expecting people to be clear in their meanings.
If, as an ex-teacher, you are unable to accurately formulate your comments, that is your problem, not mine.


10 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM (#3976016)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.


10 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM (#3976017)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM
Nitpicking once again Nigel.
Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.
I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.


Requiring accuracy in the intentions of posters is not 'nitpicking', but if that is the best you can do to answer criticism of previous comments I will accept that you cannot add to the discussion.

As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU (to protect their own providers) but you have obviously either not read those comments, or chosen to ignore them.


10 Feb 19 - 06:55 PM (#3976018)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.

Good night.
I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution.

If the best you can do is use insulting names, and avoid discussing the matter in hand, clearly you have learnt from your pupils, rather than the other way around.


11 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM (#3976046)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU


I can't speak for anyone else, but I have not explored that here because it requires quite elaborate and disputed economics. The ERG's favourite economist, Professor Minton, advocates getting rid of tariffs entirely, and is quite content that theis would lead to the demise of UK farming etc. Which, since it limits our options, is actually quite bad in terms of sovereignty as we would be limited to picking between whatever deals others would be prepared to offer. Almost everyone else thinks letting our local farming collapse is a really bad idea. Some people argue that lowering tariffs leaves more money in people's pockets, which is a good thing. But if they can only spend it on foreign goods that is a net flow of resources out of the country, which is not a good thing at all.

I may be the only person in world who thinks this, but it seems credible to me that if we want to reduce climate change we need to encourage people to buy locally and that tariffs on imports will eventually be one of the tools we use to help manage this.

So: I regard reduction of tariffs not as a 'good' but as 'uncertain benefit'.


11 Feb 19 - 03:28 AM (#3976057)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

By "almost everyone else" I of course meant "almost every other economist." I am sure a lot of people who are not economists think it as well, but it was the former I meant.


11 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM (#3976058)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Corbyn has become a figure of hate and fear for the establishment
If he wasn't he'd be ignored - now he is being targetted by extremist foreign government who have attempted to infiltrate British politics in order to smear him and halt his growing influence - cant wait till Trump tries to build another wall to keep him out
He must be doing something right (or do I mean 'left'?)
   
Nigel
"I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution."
Just as you have forgotten to respond to answers to your questions
You asked, I answered - the rest is silence......
Jim Carroll


11 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM (#3976060)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".


11 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM (#3976063)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

If tariffs drop the only people who will benefit will be the ones current!y making profits. The importer will benefjt, the wholesaler, the retailer but when we get down to the consumer you can get that the price will remain the same.


11 Feb 19 - 04:37 AM (#3976074)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".

I find it useful to put such quotes in context. From the same Guardian article we have the gem:
Prakash Loungani at the IMF analysed the accuracy of economic forecasters and found something remarkable and worrying. “The record of failure to predict recessions is virtually unblemished,” he said.

His analysis revealed that economists had failed to predict 148 of the past 150 recessions.


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.
Forecasting is more an art than a science. Why else did all the referendum forecasts become so unglued?
Statistically to be fed up with, and ignore experts, keeps a person in closer touch with reality.
I wonder how true this would be for the religion of climate change?


11 Feb 19 - 04:58 AM (#3976078)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.


True. But it would be irrational to then only eat salt...


Economists predictions are one factor among many to take into account. That the evidence says they are bad at predicting recessions does not means they should be disregarded in general. Babies and bathwater, as the saying has it.


11 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM (#3976096)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

UK economic growth slowest since 2012

We were asked earlier to wait for these figures before saying the growth was poor. We have done so.

"Ben Brettell, senior economist, at Hargreaves Lansdown said "There's little doubt Brexit uncertainty is responsible for the disappointing figures, though concerns over global trade will have also played a part."

Come now, you under-estimate the world class doubters you are delaying with. They are experts at doubting such things.


11 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM (#3976097)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Well in theory the 4th quarter GDP results are due today. Then we can see how far up the garden path Carney has taken us with his growth? estimates.
It is worth pointing out that Germany is expected to avoid an official recession by the skin of its teeth(results 14/02)
You need the big picture in order to draw meaningful conclusions,and in much of the world the favourite pencil out of the box is red.


11 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM (#3976098)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Hardly a recipe for growth!


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/18/why-are-global-markets-falling-and-are-we-heading-for-recession


11 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM (#3976102)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

From the font of truth and accurate reporting!


https://order-order.com/2019/02/11/uk-grows-1-3-2018/


11 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM (#3976156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

At least one MP can see BrexShit for what it is, and isn't afraid to say so...

https://www.facebook.com/242623503265050/posts/308298963364170?sfns=mo


11 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM (#3976161)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Before anyone says 'Facebook' as a means of dismissal, the speech is easy to find in Hansard.


11 Feb 19 - 12:35 PM (#3976170)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Here is ine of Corbyn's speeches. I do like consistency off a politician!

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/exclusive-jeremy-corbyn-called-european-union-be-defeated-explosive-rally-speech-19021129836

What a valianr brexiteer! But he ducks and dives and bends and twists and the message varies north and south of the river!


11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM (#3976182)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Investment down, growth the worst for nine years and even a Tory chancellor is blaming brexit uncertainty. And nothing happening. No trade deals and Liam Fox wobbling sweatily. Anyone for £350 million a week?


11 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM (#3976192)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I'd prefer the bus. I do not trust fiat currency!


11 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM (#3976198)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

The thing that gets consistently ignored by those yammering on about how being in a customer union with the EU gets in the way of getting trade deals with other countries in farflung parts of the world is that, when it comes to getting favourable trade deals, the UK on its own is in a far weaker position that the EU. It just hasn't got the clout. Much of the time it will be about knuckling down and accepting what is offered, however bad.

This is referred to as "regaining sovereignty and independence."


11 Feb 19 - 07:46 PM (#3976237)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

And the money we're taking back control of is ebbing away fast. And the borders we're taking back control of mysteriously appear to be unable to stop people from moving out. And the laws we're taking back control of will soon all be the same laws we'll have to stick with anyway (it won't hurt because they're all good laws anyway, and in any case they form a tiny proportion of all the laws the country embraces). And we'll have to stick to any new EU laws regarding trade, only this time we'll have no say in them.


12 Feb 19 - 03:49 AM (#3976262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Remarkable programme on Irish television on Brexit last night which included powerful interviews with Alistair Campbell and the father of two of the Omagh bombing victims
The discussion centred around the possible effects Brexit would have on The Good Friday Agreement and a return to violence
It finished with statements from businessmen and farmers in the audience (from both sides of the border) outlining the effects this fiasco has had on their businesses and possible future effects
Campbell, who I have always detested, spoke magnificently and responded to every question clearly and honestly (not bad for a politician)
Perhaps they should have asked LORD SNOOTY instead - better for Britain's image !!!
Jim Carroll


12 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM (#3976276)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Lord Snooty:
He is the blue passport in human form, the red telephone box made flesh, the Royal Yacht Britannia in a pinstripe suit; a reminder of a world in which traditional Britons didn’t have to apologise for being who they were and bow before the gods of multiculturalism, feminism and health and safety.”
“He is more than just the leader of a faction or a cult. He is also the embodiment of the average Conservative Party member. A recent survey by Queen Mary University of London painted the fullest picture to date of Tory members. Some 44% are over 65 and 71% are men. They think austerity has been a good thing. They believe in traditional values and harsh prison sentences. They love Brexit—and not just any old Brexit, but the full-strength sort, leaving both the customs union and the single market."

A fine fellow of a man! Naturally superior to the scruffy git Corbyn.
The eloquent Rees Mogg has very clear consistent views concerning Brexit. Does Corbyn have a view of brexit that holds for more than the next soundbite? Such a disreputable wretch!


12 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM (#3976290)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM
Investment down, growth the worst for nine years


"Growth worst for 9 years". Isn't it strange that that period of 9 years (only) just covers the periods of the Conservative-led governments.
maybe the quote deliberately avoided saying "Growth worst since we had a Labour government".


12 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM (#3976293)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017


12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM (#3976296)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Isn't the constant attempting to lay the blame the worldwide financial crisis - caused by the recklessness and mismanagement of, in the main, US financial institutions, mirrored here and elsewhere by others - at the door of the last Labour government a clear indication of the fundamental dishonesty of the Tory Party and its sycophants?


12 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM (#3976301)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

And, more importantly, a way of not talking about the impact of Brexit and the negotiations for it.


12 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM (#3976302)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

In 17 auctions, Mr Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer sanctioned the sale of 395 tonnes of gold. Figures released by the Treasury show that the total proceeds from the sales was around $3.5billion. According to a Parliamentary answer, if the gold was sold last month, on December 15, it would have raised $10.5billifor you!on.Jan 7, 2009.

That's Labour for you!


12 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM (#3976305)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Growth worst since we had a Labour government".
Long since expecting a return response Nigel, but the statement is based on statistics not who was in charge and they are even carried by the Conservative Daily Express, Daily Mail and the Vonservative mouthpiece, The Daily Telegraph
Jim Carroll


12 Feb 19 - 08:47 AM (#3976311)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the
spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017


Talking of 'spin'. This administration may not have reached the 'high' of 2000, but looking at your graph, neither did Labour. This idea of picking a single year to make the comparison with is misleading.


12 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM (#3976322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Cheers, Jim. You beat me to it in putting Nigelpicker right.


12 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM (#3976340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Thanks Baccy
"Vonservative mouthpiece, The Daily Telegraph"
Now there's a typo worth remembering - wonder if we can look forward to a Westminster Fire like the Reichstag one !!
Jim


12 Feb 19 - 11:12 AM (#3976345)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

As expected, no answers from our resident Tories - 'whataboutery' from one, and the usual nitpicking from the other. Clearly students of the Theresa May Method of Answering Questions - i.e. ignore the question and try to change the subject.

What a shower!


12 Feb 19 - 12:01 PM (#3976364)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

This idea of picking a single year to make the comparison with is misleading.

And blaming the Labour government for a world recession caused primarily by dodgy banking practices isnt?

It was you who started trying to compare the current Tory disaster with past Labour governments, Nigel. Don't start backtracking now just because some awkward facts have got in the way!


12 Feb 19 - 01:00 PM (#3976378)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Who was blaming Labour for the global recession of 2008/09?
The comparative high point of 9 years ago (although GDP growth has been higher in between) was soon after that recession. The global recession (of 2008/09) cannot take all the blame in the fall of GDP growth.
In the link you gave for GDP figures from 2000 to 2017 there was a downward trend from a peak in 2000 before that recession hit.


12 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM (#3976382)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Past performance has sweet FA to do with brexit anyway. The current low has everything to do with it. Nice try at deflection but don't worry. You are not the only one who knows they are wrong about leaving the EU but is now unable to admit it.


12 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM (#3976385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

In a perhaps vain attempt to drag people back into the present day rather than discussing the financial crash or Brown's gold dealings, here is something about Brexit. Remember that is what we are discussing?

It seems Grayling's statement that no taxpayers' money has been spent in dealing with the Ferry Company With No Ships is being challenged by carefully ignoring all the costs involved apart from dosh directly paid to the company.


12 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM (#3976388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The ONS has released its first estimate of GDP growth for 2018 Q4 at 0.2%, giving an initial figure of 1.3% growth for the year. A far cry from the recession that the Treasury, Bank of England and IMF were all predicting before the referendum…

Growth is sluggish across Europe, particularly in Italy and Germany – the UK is still comfortably in the middle of the road, with the European Commission itself putting the UK on a par with France and the Eurozone average for its 2019 forecast.


12 Feb 19 - 07:06 PM (#3976429)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Past performance has sweet FA to do with brexit anyway. The current low has everything to do with it. Nice try at deflection but don't worry.

Good. It wasn't the brexiteers on this thread who brought up the fact that GDP growth is at a nine year low. So you accept that it is FA to do with the Brexit debate. Please advise your associated leavers of that view.
"The current low" is only a 'low' if it is compared to historic rates of GDP growth. If past performance has nothing to do with it, then it becomes pointless to discuss it.


12 Feb 19 - 07:27 PM (#3976432)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Hmm Nigel. The poster said that the current low has everything to do with it. You admit as much in your post.

Once again (and again) you seek to deflect the discussion.


PS. Any GOOD news about Brexit yet?


13 Feb 19 - 06:32 AM (#3976489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Two gems from Guido. The man with a finger on the pulse:

https://order-order.com/2019/02/13/inflation-falls-two-year-low-despite-brexit/

Tsk, Tsk!


https://order-order.com/2019/02/13/robbins-reveals-dishonesty-of-governments-stance/


13 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM (#3976494)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Ford step up preparations to move production out of Britain

Thanks for trashing our economy, prospects and way of life, brexiteers.


13 Feb 19 - 09:36 AM (#3976496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

No gain without pain!


13 Feb 19 - 10:23 AM (#3976511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Trimble has mounted a legal challenge against the border issue - another £billion bung in the offing, I think
Jim Carroll


13 Feb 19 - 10:44 AM (#3976515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

But pain is not evidence of gain.


13 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM (#3976516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I'm sure the workers whose livelihoods will go down the toilet will be very comforted by those sentiments expressed above.


13 Feb 19 - 11:17 AM (#3976521)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

It's the true spirit of Brexiteers Backwoodsman, in truth they don't give a flying **** about anyone except themselves.

The comment you refer to is clear proof of this.

And the really stupid thing is that they don't think any of this will impact on them, despite their outgoings increasing over and above what could be expect due to inflation.


13 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM (#3976523)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And, of course, the Brexit-Muppets have still to tell the rest of us what this mystical 'gain' will consist of (apart from 'taking are cuntry back').


13 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM (#3976536)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

You want some good brexit news? Well yertis, courtesy of a chap posting a comment to a Guardian piece (the one about Theresa May's policy on mouldy jam):

As Rome burns by a Tory flame thrower; and Ian Blackford’s laser like critique of May’s rhetorical guff, Brexit pain is clearly for the little people only while the elite ship off and ship out:
- UK has rolled over just £16bn out of £117bn trade deals – 13% success rate, nice one Foxy, Geeza job, a’can do that….
- Anti-terror checks deliver fresh Brexit threat for UK hauliers.
- Targeted no-deal Brexit ads are funded opaquely, yet the government has failed to bring in new laws – I wonder why?
- The Dutch government has said it is in talks with more than 250 companies about moving their operations from the UK to the Netherlands before Brexit.
- As the GB pound tanks on the international currency markets exiting Europe with a no deal Disaster Capitalist are set to swoop on Brexit Britain and seize assets of indebted UK companies and Public Sector organisations.
- The UK’s trade with Japan will revert to World Trade Organisation tariffs in the case of a no-deal Brexit.
- The Department for International Trade (DIT) told business leaders this week that time was running out for Britain to roll-over trade deals with about 60 countries the EU has free trade arrangements with,
- Boris Johnson suggests that leaving the EU will allow us to dismantle green standards for electrical goods and environmental impact assessments.
- Iain Duncan Smith asks for the removal after Brexit of the carbon floor price, which has more or less stopped coal-burning in the UK.
- With Liam Fox is demanding the destruction of food and environmental standards as the price of the trade deal he desperately seeks with the US.
- Jacob Rees-Mogg has proposed that we accept “emission standards from India”. “We could say, if it’s good enough in India, it’s good enough for here.”
- Brexit Snowflakes melt in huge numbers causing widespread gushing of crocodile tears due to the heat from Donald Tusk.
- UK financial sector has shifted at least £800 billion ($1 trillion) worth of assets out of UK into the EU because of Brexit, with consequential losses in tax receipts to HMT.
- Britain’s economy is contracting – James Knightly of IGN.
- Brexit's vice-like grip is hurting services industry -Duncan Brock at the Chartered Institute of Procurement & Supply.
- Purchasing Managers Index (PMI) plunges to a 2 ½ year low due to Tory Brexit shambles.
- 200 000 British applied for Irish passports in 2018 to retain EU citizenship.
- Tory refused six times to answer a question about what was on offer to Nissan.
- Cold war plans revived to move Queen to safe location away if unrest follows no deal.
- Nissan shelving plans to build new X-Trail in UK.
- Government officials are preparing to deal with “putrefying stockpiles” of rubbish.
- One in three UK firms plan for no-deal Brexit relocation – IOD.
- More than one in 10 British businesses have already set up operations outside the UK.
- British car manufacturing investment plunges by 50%
- Food retailers now tell us we are 9 meals away from anarchy.
- Royal Bank of Scotland to transfer a third of clients and assets worth billions to Amsterdam.
- Barclays to move £170bn to Dublin over no-deal Brexit fears.
- Media companies (Discovery; Comcast; NBC) have moved staff and broadcast licenses out of the UK.
- Five of the largest banks transferring 750 billion euros ($857 billion) of assets to Frankfurt.
- Unilever to consolidate its headquarters in Rotterdam, and not in London.
- HSBC moving 1000 jobs from London to Paris, where it will set up its EU headquarters.
- UBS to move 1000 jobs from London to EU offices, including Frankfurt.
- 'May can no longer be trusted': Heavyweight European press condemns PM
- NHS trusts 'could run out of medical supplies' without Brexit deal. – Birmingham Hospital Chief
- British retirees in EU will lose free healthcare under no-deal Brexit. – DoH Select Committee
- UK personal insolvencies hit seven-year high. – Insolvency Service
- Corporate insolvencies are likely to continue to rise in 2019. – Menzies LLP
- European Banking Authority from London to Paris.
- European Medicines Agency relocates from London to Amsterdam.
- Moneygram will move its EU headquarters from London to Brussels.
- Dyson to Singapore.
- Rees-Mogg to Dublin with two portfolios.
- Farage to Germany with passports for his sons.
- Lawson holed up in France.
- Airbus UK about to fly out from UK.
- Jim Ratcliffe, Britain’s richest man, reportedly moving to Monaco for tax purposes.
- Panasonic moving its European HQ from the UK to The Netherlands.
- Sony moving its European HQ from London to The Netherlands.


13 Feb 19 - 01:23 PM (#3976539)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Yebbut weer gettin are cuntry back...


13 Feb 19 - 01:48 PM (#3976544)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Yeah Steve, but don't forget - "No gain without pain", and "It's a price worth paying". :-(


13 Feb 19 - 01:48 PM (#3976545)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Yeah Steve, but don't forget - "No gain without pain", and "It's a price worth paying". :-(


13 Feb 19 - 01:52 PM (#3976547)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Better out than in!

The news from Guido before the BBC spins it into oblivion.


https://order-order.com/2019/02/13/eurozone-industrial-production-plunges-even-faster-expected/


14 Feb 19 - 02:14 AM (#3976595)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

A little while ago I asked Nigel in particular but indirectly all our Brexit supporters whether they were willing that their nearest and dearest suffer any disadvantages that may arise - I take it as read they are prepared to suffer any such thing themselves.

We have a case in point here. Imagine such a job loss affects your son, daughter or those of a close friend. They are worried about how they will pay their mortgage and whether if they don't find a job soon they could even lose their home. They come to you full of fear and trepidation.

Do you really cheerily say "No gain without pain"?


14 Feb 19 - 06:29 AM (#3976613)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

James O'Brien's proposals for Brexit. The popular LBC presenter has some proposals that should be popular with everyone...


Proposals for a Germany+ agreement with the EU has garnered widespread support on social media after the proposal was put forward by LBC presenter James O’Brien.

The Brexit policy, which would be popular with both Leavers and Remainers and could even pass through Parliament, would give Britain the same deal that Germany has but with added benefits.

Britain would keep control of its borders by opting out of the Schengen agreement on free movement.

That means we could send people from other countries home if they couldn’t support themselves.

We would also stay out of the single currency, have the power of veto on matter such as Turkish ascension to the EU and vote on how our government spends our money.

It would also mean we have lots of fresh food and medicines arriving unchecked into our country under some of the biggest trade agreements on the planet, with a one-third reduction in the fee we pay for all of these things.

And best of all – we could vote on our own laws, with a court to make sure that British people and businesses are fairly treated.

As O’Brien notes: “That’s called Germany+.

“It’s also called being in the European Union.”


:D


14 Feb 19 - 06:50 AM (#3976615)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

There is now a constant stream of complaints from both the Northern Counties and the Republic, of the effects Brexit is now having on the Irish economy and loss of investment and jobs, the latest being from the transport industry and it hasn't been put into place yet!
The Little Englanders can hardly claim it to be an 'Irish Problem' - without D.U.P. support May would be looking for a job in the hospitality industry (except that's likely to take a HEFTY KICKING as well if things continue as they are)
Jim Carroll


14 Feb 19 - 06:58 AM (#3976617)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"As O’Brien notes: “That’s called Germany+.

“It’s also called being in the European Union."


And it's precisely what we currently have, and what a bunch of bone-head, flag-waving dick-wads have voted to throw away on 29/3/19.


14 Feb 19 - 07:45 AM (#3976620)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

For good news on Brexit, google this:

https://costofbrexit.netlify.com

Brexit since the referendum has cost us between £440 million and £500 million a week. So far, anything between 60 and 80 billion in total. I need a red bus and a pot of paint...


14 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM (#3976686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Now they've upset the Liverpudlians - bang goes the United Kingdom!!
Jim


14 Feb 19 - 04:11 PM (#3976728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Question for both sides.

Just how many defeats in the House of Commons does Teresa May have to suffer before she (and her advisers) understand that her proposals are not acceptable.


14 Feb 19 - 05:00 PM (#3976732)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

She'll keep going until the small group of billionaires and multi-millionaires who are giving her her orders tell her to do something else. They want a no-deal BrexShit in order to avoid the new EU Anti-Tax-Avoidance regulations, and she will make sure they get what they want, no matter how much the rest of us suffer as a result.


15 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM (#3976842)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Apparently "one ERG source said the group was unconcerned about [the release of no-deal analyses] because the public paid no attention to "project fear" at the referendum."

That seems an unwise way of looking at things. He or she may be right in the event of a second referendum. But it will be a very different thing if one or more of the warnings turn out to be correct and those suffering the consequences know the MPs were told beforehand but chose to let it happen.


15 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM (#3976857)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

https://order-order.com/2019/02/15/eu-investors-considering-moves-uk-brexit/

Well, well, well!
I do not think the EU scripted that! Brought by Guido of course.

and for the infidels the original can be read in the Financial Times!


15 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM (#3976914)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

Help out a Yank here please: is Rachel Johnson trying to sat Brex-Shit has gone tits up?


15 Feb 19 - 01:30 PM (#3976917)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

LOL!

Maybe she was trying to make a couple of points...


16 Feb 19 - 01:49 AM (#3976978)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Neil D

I just read an article that said a No-deal Brexit could lead to a unified Ireland. The premise was that NI would better off economically as part of the Republic than as part of the UK after Brexit. With the last census showing that the Catholic population rapidly gaining on the Protestant population which is aging, it is only a matter of time before the Northern Irish will opt out of the UK.
Could this be possible?


16 Feb 19 - 03:42 AM (#3976989)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I think the position of Northern Ireland after Brexit will probably be a factor in any eventual reunification, but I don't think there will be a "cause and effect." What is true is that had reunification been proposed and agreed over the last two years the whole backstop question would not have arisen.


16 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM (#3976994)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

once wales has made its mind up whether it wants to be little little england when England goes for independence or to join Scotland and newly unified Ireland (and Cumbria) in a Celtic Union in the EU, then we are just about sorted. Remains of England can continue to send all the money down to london for HS2, trident, a new Shouty House for the weirdo brexiteer government and maybe a garden bridge and a mr blobby theme park on the grass outside for all the yellow jackets and IDS to play with.


16 Feb 19 - 04:05 AM (#3976996)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Hey Pete! If Cumbria is going for independence I want to see the reintroducion of the old kingdom of Northumbria so we can go too!


16 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM (#3977001)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Talking of reunification is all well and good, but does the republic want to pick up the tab? Lefty dreams have a very tangible cost.
£10 billion a year is one figure quoted.


Reality Check


16 Feb 19 - 04:24 AM (#3977003)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well I live near Bude in Cornwall, a town very close to the border with England. I want a backstop and I want it NOW. Bloody Devonians coming here, taking our jobs and shagging our wives...


16 Feb 19 - 05:02 AM (#3977011)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So you do accept forecasts when they suit, then.


16 Feb 19 - 06:37 AM (#3977032)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

there is a great deal of money to be saved by northern parts not being forced to pay for stuff we don't want or need. HS2, trident, crossrail, a military armed way more than is necessary, state funerals for royalty, state security for trump's visit, security for a maggie th..... etc statue, stupidly huge payouts for government brexit or no deal 'planning' outsourcing everything to dodgy groups like carillion, virgin, serco etc.....anyway i could go on. we have renewables, fish, high quality food and whisky. and we won't be dragged into any more stupid wars to suit trump or whoever.

even the most passionate english person can plainly see what a mess and a joke the parliament is - the place is permanently infested with tories and the country has a sizable rump (ooer, missus) who will always support them whatever happens. if you have the chance to cut those links, why wouldn't you?


16 Feb 19 - 06:50 AM (#3977033)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Varadkar is nervously watching his (chlorinated?) chickens starting to come home to roost…

https://order-order.com/2019/02/15/ireland-getting-nervous-eu-stitch/


16 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM (#3977186)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

So BMI has collapsed, blaming brexit. Wow. Of all the airlines I've used providing flights to Europe, BMI was by far the best. Bollocks.


17 Feb 19 - 12:56 AM (#3977226)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Nah, it's 'Project Fear' Steve!??


17 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM (#3977233)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

And FlyBe has said the company will be wound up if a sale is not agreed by shareholders in early March. They blame their problems on currency exchange rates and oil prices. Currency rates, as we all know, have nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit ....


17 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM (#3977237)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

FLYBE Facts:

BMI asset value in 2008 was £12 million.
EU interference made their Heathrow landing slots worth £770 million.
Various airlines bought shares to gain slots and then sold the company on.
By 2012 they were losing £1 million a month.

Where does Brexit come into this ?


17 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM (#3977239)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I think if you say "FlyBe FACTS" and then go on to talk about FlyBMI which is a completely separate company you must not be surprised if we have certain doubts....


17 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM (#3977248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It might be worth mentioning that I used to work for the UK Civil Aviation Authority in the section that regulated the slots at airports, so I can probably say quite a lot about the impact of "EU interference." Suffice it to say that in broad terms, the slots are worth what airlines are prepared to pay, no more, no less and the EU regulations are about ensuring slots are bought to be used, not to held unused to block out competitors. What airlines are prepared to pay depends on their forecast - yes, I am afraid, they do rely on forecasts - of how profitable owning one slot rather than another is. Everything that affects potential profitability feeds into that forecast, including how Brexit might alter the market.


17 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM (#3977253)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

BMI Regional had emerged in 2012 as a spin-off airline, under new owners, after the mainline carrier BMI was sold to British Airways parent IAG. BMI Regional operated services under the brand name Flybmi

Flybe is a totally separate company that is also up for sale, Potential buyers have been mentioned as Easyjet and Stobart.

Brain not fully engaged. Apologies for confusion.


17 Feb 19 - 04:39 AM (#3977256)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I am reminded of a brilliant "Rise and Fall or Reginald Perrin" where he invited all the senior staff of his company to a party and they all hung awkwardly aroubd his dining room whwre there was no food, but no one could mention it. After a long time he said, "Right every one, shall we move into the garden now?" Evwryone brightened up becauae obviously all the food was out there ... And it wasn't.

In the end he said there was no food but he had donated all the cost of it to a charity and was sure every one would agree. And of course they had no choice but to agree.


17 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM (#3977257)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Whoops everyone. Talk about brain not being engaged. That was a text to my daughter!


17 Feb 19 - 04:54 AM (#3977263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Whoops everyone. Talk about brain not being engaged. That was a text to my daughter!"

ROTHLMAO! I was wondering what you were drinking last night...!! :-)


17 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM (#3977269)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I did have a little prosecco on the grounds we had some still around from a party we had, so it was on hand when an family engagement was announced. But that's all, honest.


17 Feb 19 - 05:40 AM (#3977273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

It's a well-known fact in our house that a cracked-open bottle of prosecco must be consumed in full as one wouldn't want to be later consuming the flat article. We therefore never have 'a little prosecco" unless there are four or five of us, and even then it prompts the commissioning of a second bottle.

Back to the ruck...


17 Feb 19 - 06:48 AM (#3977291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Everything that affects potential profitability feeds into that forecast, including how Brexit might alter the market.

No one can dispute that.
However the slots were sold off long before brexit was a gleam in anyone's eye. The residue of the company was a stripped out husk losing money from that time if my understanding is correct. From comments I have seen elsewhere it was a dead duck a long time back.
"The airline was heavily loss-making, and no-one was prepared to put in extra funding. The average passenger load per flight was just 18, meaning even the small regional jet planes flown by Flybmi were less than half-full, The typical Ryanair departure has 10 times as many passengers.

Since Flybmi split away from BMI, investors have pumped in £40m, which represents a subsidy of about £13 per passenger ever flown."


17 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM (#3977303)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Potential purchasers of flyBMI and flybe will take the forecast return for whatever slots they own into account, and they will base any such forecast from today when Brexit is more than a gleam in anyone's eye.

It is silly to blame everything on Brexit. But it is equally silly to refuse to admit Brexit might be causing problems.


17 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM (#3977341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I think their business model had been flawed for years. The only surprise is that they kept trading so long. The dog was dead, the infestation of fleas was insufficient to keep it moving. Brexit will occur after it's wake.


17 Feb 19 - 11:53 AM (#3977364)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

The FlyMBI affair has now been linked to the Brexit fiasco on today's mid-day news, as if we didn't know already
Watch this space, this is just another of more to come
Jim Carroll


17 Feb 19 - 12:31 PM (#3977371)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

This winter is proving extremely cruel to small airlines, which have high fixed costs and, currently, very low revenues. It has precipitated the collapse of Primera Air, Cobalt of Cyprus and Germania before Flybmi.

Flybe, which is continuing operations as normal, has been rescued by a cash injection from a consortium involving Virgin Atlantic, Stobart Air and a US hedge fund – which bought it for just £2.2m.

Small regional airlines based in the UK are particularly vulnerable. Return journeys on domestic flights are subject to £26 in Air Passenger Duty, placing them at an immediate disadvantage. And whenever a route becomes successful, it is likely that a bigger player will elbow in with larger planes and lower fares.

Lets see a Scandinavian airline, a cypriot airline, and a german airline along with FlyBMI all kicked into touch and Flybe struggling.
All due to Brexit?
Pull the other one!

Awkward things facts.


17 Feb 19 - 01:00 PM (#3977380)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

This is the second time in about as many weeks I have pointed this out. Brexit can be A factor without being the ONLY or even the MAIN factor., That all low cost carriers are finding it tough does not affect whether Brexit uncertainty makes things tougher.


17 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM (#3977387)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

DMcG I do not really dispute your analysis. What somewhat irritates me is those that latch on to brexit as the sole cause of all things negative. Variable factors impact outcomes, from confidence to the weather. The problem arises in trying to assign the correct weighting to each of the variables besides actually being able to identify them in the first place.


17 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM (#3977405)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

The main difference being is that Brexit is perceived to be a factor.

A factor of our own making.


17 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM (#3977412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Now I'n not about the buy a Porsche or a Audi, Lamborghini or a Bugatti.

However I could consider buying a Seat or a Skoda.

Now the German company is warning that prices may increase by 10% after the UK leaves the EU.

One should note that this is in addition to the rises created by the fall in the value of the pound since June 2016.

What price Brexit eh! I fear we're about to find out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47270616


17 Feb 19 - 02:49 PM (#3977415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47270616

Try again:-)


17 Feb 19 - 03:01 PM (#3977418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Cars are not green. You should walk.


17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM (#3977434)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Well. lets see.

The nearest "city" to where I live in 40 miles.

Now in my youth I may have been able to walk that in 10/11 hours.

Now I fear it may take me a week.

Idiot.


17 Feb 19 - 04:30 PM (#3977436)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

700! Don't do it Ravgy!


17 Feb 19 - 04:32 PM (#3977437)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And I've got 700!


17 Feb 19 - 04:33 PM (#3977438)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Bugger! Missed! :-)


17 Feb 19 - 06:23 PM (#3977453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Also English is stuffed with sayings like "the straw that broke the camel's back" And "juggling too many balls" and stories like "how the arena became the king of the birds." Using the juggling metaphor, if it took juggling a specific four to run the business with difficulty, and adding a fifth called Brexit caused everything to be dropped it would be perfectly reasonable to blame the Brexit ball. True, you could have got rid of one of the others and juggled successfully, but you would have been losing one of the key four needed.

Blaming Brexit for a demise can be perfectly reasonable, even if it is comparatively small effect, should it be enough to tip the business over the edge.


17 Feb 19 - 06:25 PM (#3977454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

How the wren became king of the birds. I hate autocorrect! I only tolerate it because my typing on the phone would be even less decipherable without it...


17 Feb 19 - 07:20 PM (#3977462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Essentially it’s the same fallacy you get when climate change deniers assert that, if there turned out to be natural factors that contribute to undesirable change, that means that any contribution to such changes from human activities can be of no importance, and that efforts to deal with them are misguided.


17 Feb 19 - 07:49 PM (#3977464)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

As we approach the horror of brexit, Kevin, denial has become the brexiteers' mantra. It's notable that, along with that, we are hearing less and less about the "opportunities" that brexit provides. Gone bit quiet, has that. But let's look on the bright side: we have a deal with the Swiss. At least we won't have to pay more for our cuckoo clocks. There's an upside to everything.


18 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM (#3977514)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The labour luvvies will not like this!
You heard it from Guido!

Labour Split


18 Feb 19 - 05:36 AM (#3977516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Much like the huge divisions within the conservative party really.

Oh course they will be brushed under the carpet by our resident Brexiteers.


18 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM (#3977521)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

For my part, I have no problem with any MP deciding they will vote according to their beliefs and judgement rather than the whip. In fact, the more, the better. And that applies to all parties.

I note that the breakaway people are calling themselves a group, not a party. That may just be a matter of where they are in the process but it may reflect that that there are enough differences between them they think a new party is a non-starter. They will of course be aware that our system is very unforgiving for new parties as well.


And isn't it an intriguing detail that 8 chairs were put out and seven MPs resigned? A miscount or a no-show I wonder?


18 Feb 19 - 05:54 AM (#3977525)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I've always thought that any MP who stood and got elected on a party ticket, supported by party workers and party money, then left the party, should step down as an MP as well. They are there under false pretences. Anyway, good riddance. They have all worked to serially undermine Corbyn. Now they'll have to do it as pink Tories. And that'll get them nowhere.


18 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM (#3977543)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Anyway back to Brexit.

I recall being told that nations across the world would be falling over themselves to have trade deals with the UK.

Now it seems that Japan are not too happy with our approach and this is on top of China cancelling trade talks last week.

Take into account Trumps America first approach and we don't seem to having nations beating a path to our door.


18 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM (#3977546)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

In the search for good news, we should not overlook that the UK has struck a deal with the US to in effect roll over an existing EU agreement.

Ok, "keeping what we have" is perhaps stretching the definition of good news too far, but it doesn't immediately look like bad news ... assuming there have been no unpublished additional agreements of course.


18 Feb 19 - 08:28 AM (#3977560)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Nice twist on Brexit
Seven right wing Labour politicians (4 with direct links to Israel) have left the Labour Party with a view to forming their own party
They give "antisemitism" and Brexit for their reason for doing so
One who isn't involved with Israel was one of the few successful in refusing to reveal the details of her expenses during the scandal
Good riddance to them - perhaps we can see a continuance of progressive Labour policies without being hampered by a yearning for a return to the good old days of 'New Labour's' "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and duck palaces for politicians pets
Jim Carroll


18 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM (#3977569)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Strong rumours that Honda are to quit the UK post Brexit and close their Swindon factory in 2022 with the loss of 3,500 jobs.

No doubt some will say this is a small price to pay.


18 Feb 19 - 11:31 AM (#3977584)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Strong rumours that Honda are to quit the UK "
Must have an abscess
As they say Abscess makes the fart go "Honda"
Jim


18 Feb 19 - 12:16 PM (#3977586)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I've always thought that any MP who stood and got elected on a party ticket, supported by party workers and party money, then left the party, should step down as an MP as well. They are there under false pretences.

By extension this should also apply to all those MPs elected on a brexit ticket and now busy betraying it.

No doubt your whimsy will find a way to weasel out and refute the suggestion.


18 Feb 19 - 12:16 PM (#3977587)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

Seven right wing Labour politicians (4 with direct links to Israel) have left the Labour Party with a view to forming their own party

“I am leaving behind a culture of bullying, bigotry and intimidation,”

There you have it in a nutshell.


18 Feb 19 - 12:26 PM (#3977592)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Israel has nothing to do with brexit. I know that Eurovision is from Tel Aviv this year but, trust me, that is nothing to do with the EU. If you want to discuss Israel, start a different thread.


18 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM (#3977603)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I believe Jim first raised the issue. Why not take it up with him?


18 Feb 19 - 01:29 PM (#3977608)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

The reasons given for their resignation was Antisemitism and Brexit
I have no intention of censoring the news report - I suggest nobody else tries to

Honda is now closing down its British branch because of Brexit Branch
No doubt we will now be told that they are crap cars
Jim


18 Feb 19 - 01:43 PM (#3977614)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Closing Swindon has repercussions far beyond the loss of the 3500 jobs. There are disruptions to supply chains with other manufacturers and there's the loss of skills, not to speak of the social consequences in the town. Thatcher enticed the Japanese carmakers here, promising them an illustrious market and the free flow of materials. We've ditched that promise via brexit so they're ditching us. That was never daubed on the side of a bus, was it? I've gone against my own grain and decided to back another referendum. The country will vote remain and that's the only way we're going to stop the country being wrecked. The seven MPs are despicable and totally unprincipled. They all used party money to campaign and they all used the party structure to get elected, and they all stood on the Labour manifesto and they all increased their majority. They should stand down and fight by-elections. I wish them a miserable oblivion.


18 Feb 19 - 01:54 PM (#3977619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

They should stand down and fight by-elections.
Hows about first getting shot of Fiona Onasanya as MP.
Priorities me boy, Priorities!


19 Feb 19 - 06:58 AM (#3977741)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

The announcement by Honda can be found Here

Here is part of the announcement:
Katsushi Inoue, Chief Officer for European Regional Operations, Honda Motor Co., Ltd., and President, Honda Motor Europe said; "In light of the unprecedented changes that are affecting our industry, it is vital that we accelerate our electrification strategy and restructure our global operations accordingly. As a result, we have had to take this difficult decision to consult our workforce on how we might prepare our manufacturing network for the future. This has not been taken lightly and we deeply regret how unsettling today's announcement will be for our people."
. . .
Honda's European HQ will continue to be located in the UK. It will be focused on serving the needs of our European customers.

This gives a good reason for the restructuring (and thus the closure of the plant) and does not mention Brexit.
This is not selective quoting. The rest of the page doesn't mention Brexit either.


19 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM (#3977744)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

What the hell else are they to say Nigel ?
HONDA ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES - PLENTY MORE TO COME
Jim Carroll


19 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM (#3977747)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

It's just brexiteers in denial, Jim. Knowing that they have lost the 'everything is going to be ok' argument they have moved on to 'the news is all that bad' and 'it's nothing to do with brexit anyway'. Why they just can't admit they were wrong is beyond me.


19 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM (#3977750)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Not much talk any more about those golden opportunities post-brexit either. Doctor Liam hasn't done very well, has he, apart from ensuring cheaper cuckoo clocks. And I can't imagine things will get much better if we continue to piss Trump off over failed jihadi fighters and send warships to float past China.


19 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM (#3977751)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

You may be correct on this one Nigel.

I did notice you didn't post anything a word when I said that one of my insurance companies was relocating some of it's operations to Germany though.

I did notice you didn't post anything when I posted that Nissan was not going to product it's new model in Sunderland, due in part to Brexit.

I did notice you didn't post anything when I posted about other Insurance and Banking organisations relocating some of their operations to Ireland.

Bit of a pattern forming here ...........??


19 Feb 19 - 08:13 AM (#3977758)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

In fairness though, and trying to be fair to the 'in denial' Brexshiteers, it must be very hard to face facts and publicly admit you've been completely sucked-in by a campaign of deceit masterminded by a tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy tax-avoiders and, as a result, behaved like a stupid, feeble-minded cunt.


19 Feb 19 - 10:03 AM (#3977763)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Ians said that there would be no food tariffs post Brexit. Gove says otherwise. Lamb and beef almost certainly. Possibly cereals. Aha, it's a good job we don't live on potato, though it looks as if some of us may do so in the future?


19 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM (#3977767)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

BW, I'm curious who you would vote for in a a stupid, feeble-minded cunt contest: your in denial Brexshiteers, or our in denial Trumpistas.

Or is this more of a 'primus inter pares' sort of thing?


19 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM (#3977777)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Mossback - I'm fortunate to have a decent brain, and I'm prepared to use it. I wouldn't vote for either. ;-)


19 Feb 19 - 11:02 AM (#3977778)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Leeks, not potatoes, it seems.


19 Feb 19 - 12:23 PM (#3977796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

HONDA:
In a statement on Tuesday, Honda said it would close the factory west of London as part of global restructuring of its manufacturing network to prepare for the age of electric vehicles.

The closure of Honda’s sole manufacturing site in Europe is expected to lead to the loss of 3,500 British jobs and deals a massive blow to the UK’s car industry as the country prepares to leave the EU.

The company also said it would close its factory in Turkey, where it employs 1,100 people and produces about 50,000 cars a year, of which 20 per cent are exported to Europe.
Analysts say the Swindon closure is long overdue. Honda had been scaling back its struggling UK operation for years and its market share in Europe remains tiny.
the new EU-Japan trade deal and declining market conditions in Europe likely affected the decision by Japan’s third-largest carmaker.

and of course the remainiacs carefully overlook the following:
The negotiations of the EU-Japan free trade agreement are now in the advanced stages. The latest statistics show that Japan is the fifth most important destination for European passenger cars and ranks second among countries exporting cars to the EU.Nearly 575,000 Japanese cars with a total value of €9 billion were imported into the EU in 2016. A trade pact that will remove EU tariffs of 10 percent on Japanese cars and 3 percent on most car parts is in the offing. Cheaper to now produce in Japan and export.
Awkward things facts! Now what was that about brexit?


19 Feb 19 - 12:44 PM (#3977799)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Wonder if the Irish will be thrown out of Brexit's Baave New Britain
I can think of one "poor mistreated Tommy Robinson" hand-wringer who would welcome the idea
Jim Carroll


19 Feb 19 - 12:52 PM (#3977800)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

and who would that be little jimmie?


19 Feb 19 - 02:08 PM (#3977821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

A glimpse of reality appears from the fog.


19 Feb 19 - 06:00 PM (#3977852)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

That link has changed since I posted it. It still contains what was the main theme before, namely:


=====

[May] was forced to admit to Conservative MPs that the Irish backstop could not be replaced by the “Malthouse compromise” – proposals for a free trade agreement with as-yet-unknown technology to avoid customs checks on the Irish border.

=====

Not surprisingly, May seems to have wobbled to say maybe in time it can be.


20 Feb 19 - 12:54 AM (#3977884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

if there is a second referendum,imo the referendum should have only two choices remain or leave,any pissing about with inclusion of mays deal[ as a voting option] will only split a vote and could prevent an overall majority.


20 Feb 19 - 01:42 AM (#3977885)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

An interesting piece from The Irish Tmes today.


20 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM (#3977901)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Irish Times"
Interesting critique of the Labour Party in a leader article yesterday - it tend to show a failure to fully understand the problems faced by a party attempting to cleanse itself of leadership little different from those on the other side of The House, but its opening statement deserves a place in political history

"The British Labour Party should be on the cusp of a historic triumph. The main opposition party faces one of the most incompetent administrations in any major European state in the post-war era: a lurching, hopelessly riven Conservative Party led by a zombie figurehead, kept in power by an ultra-conservative single-issue outfit from Northern Ireland, and unable to come up with a workable policy on the most consequential issue of the past half a century"."
Jim Carroll


20 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM (#3977909)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Jim:
Unfortunately, for once I totally agree.


20 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM (#3977912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Welcoming Hatton and Livingstone back in the fold and allowing momentum to become as divisive as the banned militant tendencywill probably destroy the Labour party and the undercurrent of antisemitism allegations still swim around, brought to the fore by the recent defections. Corbyn cannot be trusted and his opinions are more changeable than the weather.
   It does the cause of democracy no favours when the opposition party
has the tail wagging the dog, and the dog is on the point of expiry.
steptoe senior is an apt analogy, he is tottering over a heap of rubbish.


20 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM (#3977927)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So now three Conservatives have joined the independent group. I don't think these are the last from either side.

It is interesting that both parties are saying "We are a broad church." It doesn't matter whether *you* think you are a broad church. What matters is if others agree. And in this case, from both sides, some don't.


20 Feb 19 - 07:26 AM (#3977935)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

As you know 40 days and 40 nights from now my UK brothers and sisters face a no deal hard Brexit that will trigger the beginning of a shortage of medicine and food. On top of this the the border with northern Ireland makes trade crazy and travel restrictions in general will be insane.
I thought you guys would have sorted this but now even I am truely scared of the coming suffering.

Ignoring the new policies will be rampant along with black markets springing up will become the new crimes. I am in no position to speculate what can not be forseen but what i do see is worse than Trump tariffs times 10.

John Oliver has compared your referendum to a surgeon that gives the patient two options and the patient accidentaly chose the fatal option.


20 Feb 19 - 10:12 AM (#3977955)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

John Oliver has compared your referendum to a surgeon that gives the patient two options and the patient accidentaly chose the fatal option.

Very astute observation, Donuel. It gets worse though. The surgeon has now explained that the procedure will be fatal and the patient is still insisting that he goes ahead with it!


20 Feb 19 - 10:23 AM (#3977959)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"The surgeon has now explained that the procedure will be fatal and the patient is still insisting that he goes ahead with it!"
A perfect plot for Holby City - not too god for the people of Britain
Jim


20 Feb 19 - 10:55 AM (#3977968)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

May has managed to nause up the offer of visa free travel to the EU by whining about the description of Gibralter as a British Colony. Its just words, but this could mess up the travel plans of millions.


21 Feb 19 - 09:09 AM (#3978116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

45% increase in prices of basic foods on WTO terms. I cannot afford this. Source: The Independent Newspaper.

Retailers have warned that a no-deal Brexit will lead to “unaffordable” price hikes on food and drink for customers in both the UK and Ireland as well as causing shortages of some everyday items.

Leaders of retail bodies said reverting to World Trade Organisation tariffs could make the cost of making fresh food and drink available to consumers increase by as much as 45 per cent- which is likely to be passed on to customers.

Food and drink production will be made more expensive due to a combination of higher tariffs and new regulatory checks, according to Aodhan Connolly, director of the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium, Thomas Burke, director of Retail Ireland and William Bain, the British Retail Consortium Europe and international policy adviser.


22 Feb 19 - 03:34 AM (#3978287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The news from Karen (if correct) will save the NHS a fortune and cure the obesity epidemic. Sounds like a win win to me!

I do not believe obesity was a common problem during wartime rationing, or immediately after when rationing was at its most severe.


22 Feb 19 - 06:17 AM (#3978327)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Iains is talking rubbish.

In the war the ration was calculated to be nutritionally adequate. People ate it because (black market aside) they had no choice. What is being talked of post Brexit is increases in precisely the fresh food that is an important part of a balanced diet.

It isn't just about how much you eat, but about what you eat.


22 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM (#3978329)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Iains is talking rubbish."
Nah - he's gloating over the misfortunes of those who won't be able to feed their families
Nothing new there
Jim Carroll


22 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM (#3978345)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Nah - he's gloating over the misfortunes of those who won't be able to feed their families
Nothing new there"

Says anglophobe little jimmie,the man applauding the return of Isis terrorist to unleash mayhem in Britain.
Sick or what?


22 Feb 19 - 08:03 AM (#3978346)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

"the return of Isis terrorist to unleash mayhem in Britain"

Oh yes, the authorities are going to bring Shamima Begun back to the UK give her a free bus pass and lessons on bombing making too ......

I've said it before ......... idiot.


22 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM (#3978347)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

People who regard criticism of politicians Anglophobic usually go under the title 'Ultranationalist'
They have an annual commemoration to remember the victims of that particular philosophy
Jim Carroll


22 Feb 19 - 10:35 AM (#3978380)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Abu-Zakariya al-Britani, also known as Jamal Udeen Al-Harith, murdered a number of Iraqi soldiers and killed himself via murder-bombing in 2017. The BBC reported that Tony Blair personally was involved with getting Abu-Zakariya freed from Guantanamo in 2004. The UK government paid $1 million as compensation to Abu-Zakariya al-Britani for his stay at Guantanamo


https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/942_OPSR_TP_Returning-to-Fight_Literature-Review_508.pdf

According to the latest estimate by the Office of the Directorate of National Intelligence (ODNI), the rate of confirmed or suspected recidivism among former Guantanamo detainees is about 27 percent or 161 individuals out of the 600 released (HASC, 2012). The estimated recidivism rate, however, has been rising up from seven percent in July 2008 to 14 percent in April 2009, and 25 percent in October 2010 (HASC, 2012

So of the 800 returning jihadis that little jimmie is crowing about, conservative statistics suggest 200 will be active terrorists on their return and queue up very happily to get the free bus pass and bomb making lessons so kindly volunteered by raggedtytash our resident buffoon.
   God preserve us from clueless leftie luvvies!


22 Feb 19 - 11:53 AM (#3978391)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Perhaps a mod would be kind enough to move the last few posts over to the relevant thread.


22 Feb 19 - 12:59 PM (#3978401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

How many times do we need to say it. Just don't respond. He is creaming his pants now!


22 Feb 19 - 02:04 PM (#3978405)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"He is creaming his pants now!"
Nah - he only doest that when he's taking the piss out of the less well off
Jim


22 Feb 19 - 04:14 PM (#3978426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I think we are all used to politicians double speak but the article in todays Guardian surely takes some beating.

It would seem that "some" cabinet ministers believe that Teresa May should step down "on a high" after this years local elections.

That reads to me as she can take all the crap of the Brexit debacle and we will carry on regardless and have someone else to blame.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/22/theresa-may-must-go-in-three-months-cabinet-ministers-say






"Not us Guv, we wus at home watching Banana splits!!"


23 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM (#3978454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

That also sounds like a push for a no deal, then have someone in charge who is not bound by any of her promises, to enable any regulations or restrictions to be jettisoned if they wish. Goodbye an independent farming sector.

O sometimes wonder if David Davis's inactivity for the start of this was a conscious long term strategy - he was always aiming for no deal.

I think, by the way, that a lot of the dire predictions of no-deal will turn out to be false or wildly exaggerated. But don't worry, the fraction thar is accurate will be quite bad enough by itself. It is worth saying because I expect we could hear a lot of "you predicted the seven plagues and they didn't happen." Maybe not, but one plague is quite enough.


23 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM (#3978483)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

A report today suggest that tariffs on imported food (alone) post Brexit could total £9 Billion per annum.

This would mean an additional cost to us, the consumers, of over 170 million a week, rough half of the "savings" advertised on the infamous red bus.

Food Tariffs

Any good news about Brexit yet?


23 Feb 19 - 06:58 AM (#3978509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

These tariffs are a direct tax on British consumers. Who will be obliged to pay more for many staples, such as cheese. Availability could be a problem too, we may be back to the dark dank days of the 70s, when the only cheese you could get was plastic cheddar from Budgens.


23 Feb 19 - 07:04 AM (#3978512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll


23 Feb 19 - 07:05 AM (#3978513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

MORE TROUBLE AT 'T MILL
Jim Carroll


23 Feb 19 - 08:21 AM (#3978522)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Thrre Cabinet Ministers have threatened to resign rather tha support a 'No Deal' Brexit, and there are now widespread calls demanding that leaving should be delayed
TIME FOR A SONG MAYBE
Jim


23 Feb 19 - 09:17 AM (#3978526)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

a referndum in the island of ireland on a united ireland?


23 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM (#3978529)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

You get the DUP to agree to that and I'll buy you a pint!!


23 Feb 19 - 10:12 AM (#3978532)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"You get the DUP to agree to that and I'll buy you a pint!!"
The DUP are no longer in a majority and will need to rely on other parties to pass legislation when Stormont finally reopens
Their insistence in remaining part of the UK has never featured strongly in people's minds; rather it has been a case of economic security to leave things as they are - Brexit had driven a Chieftain Tank through that one so, if it ever comes to a vote it is quite likely that a United Ireland will walk it
Crazy situation - a party that has to rely on support of other parties in the Six Counties is now propping up the British Government - 'Yes Prime Minister' couldn't have made this up - let alone 'Spitting Image'
A feckin' laughing stock - the lot of them
Jim Carroll


23 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM (#3978534)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Fun for travellers to Europe in the event of a 'No-Deal' BrexShit on 29/3.

Didn't see any of that on the side of that friggin' red bus!

Any GOOD news about BrexShit?

Thought not.


23 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM (#3978535)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

There are some that have concluded the brexit bus will be hijacked by the EU and used to run over Mr Varader.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/united-ireland-fix-brexit-britain

In an EU heading into recession the pain of a hard border will be keenly felt by both the German and French economies and should reunification occur, can the republic afford the 19 billion price tag.


Actions have consequences and Taoiseach Leo Varadkar as the EU's useful idiot may find his shelf life limited.


23 Feb 19 - 11:07 AM (#3978539)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Any GOOD news about BrexShit?"
It looks like it might be put on the back boiler for a while and it has brought the Tory Party crashing in flames
EVERY CLOUD BACCY - EVERY CLOUD !
jIM


23 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM (#3978551)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

> You get the DUP to agree to that and I'll buy you a pint!!

Raggy, the DUP can say what it likes. According to my understanding of the Good Friday Agreement, the call for a border poll doesn't require British Parliamentary consent, just the advice of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (in the absence of Stormont), if he or she has cause to believe that it's the popular will. It's a government issue, not a Parliament one, so all the PM has to do is accept the judgment of the S of S, and proceed to put a border poll in motion. And if the PM refuses, it probably wouldn't happen. But if it gets denied in the event of a hard Brexit, seven kinds of hell will probably break loose, for financial reasons more than political ones.

[The DUP's] insistence in remaining part of the UK has never featured strongly in people's minds; rather it has been a case of economic security... Brexit has driven a Chieftain Tank through that one.

It'll drive a tank through the Protestant farmers/small businesses vote too, when election time rolls around, which the DUP would do well to remember. As Jim has indicated, people are more worried about being able to feed their children and keep up mortgage payments than ideologies.

Of course, reunification also needs the consent of the Republic of Ireland, which can only be obtained by putting it to the vote here, i.e. a referendum. If both nations then find for reunification, the legislation is already in place (AFAIU) to implement it.


23 Feb 19 - 02:01 PM (#3978566)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

A hard brexit will hit Ireland severely. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, the Irish 40th. Therefore there is much less resilience. Additionally Ireland prides itself on a knowledge economy largely founded on the presence of multinationals in the country. Should the threatened tax harmonization occur within the EU their raison d'être
may founder on quicksand. This is a double vulnerability further magnified by the UK being the biggest export market and UK food being 40% of Irish supermarket goods(roughly) and UK ferry ports acting as
entrepôt ports for Irish trade to and from the EU. Varadkar is doing his country no favours by trying to act the bogeymen thwarting British attempts to extricate themselves from the disaster zone of the EU.
The demographics indicate reunification is a likely outcome at some future point, providing it is seen as of economic benefit to the North.
Is a free health service more of a draw than a political ideal, as far as the majority in the north are concerned? (To give but one example)


23 Feb 19 - 02:32 PM (#3978573)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

From Backwoodsman's link:
Currently, a driver of a UK-registered car is allowed to drive anywhere in the EU, the EEA (European Economic Area), Switzerland and Serbia, and not have to carry a green card that proves you have insurance cover.

But if the UK leaves without a deal, all changes and drivers will be expected to carry a green card when in mainland Europe and Ireland. They are likely to be issued by an insurance company for free, but the industry is warning it could take up to a month to obtain one, so if no deal happens and you're booked to go away with the car this Easter, you will need to act fast.


Typical Guardian: But if the UK leaves without a deal, all changes and drivers will be expected to carry a green card when in mainland Europe and Ireland. That sentence makes no sense (except to Guardian readers). I'm guessing that there should be a word, or phrase, between 'all' and 'changes'. But in the absence of such, it makes no sense.

The second paragraph says that drivers will be 'expected to carry a green card'. This does NOT mean that they will be 'required' to carry one. Again, Guardian readers may have a different understanding of the English language.

I know that there are those here who think that quoting from The Guardian helps put their case forward, but it appears that those who write for that paper are lacking in their understanding of the English language.


23 Feb 19 - 02:36 PM (#3978575)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Nitpicking again Nigs? Never let us down, do you?

Pillock.


23 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM (#3978577)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Of course, reunification also needs the consent of the Republic of Ireland, which can only be obtained by putting it to the vote here"
We....lllll
Partition was a part of The Empire, which is long gone - it was supposed to be temporary anyway
That being said - thas all but a majority for ending partition here for several years now and I have little doubt that the idea of a hard border would shift the balance convincingly
Jim


23 Feb 19 - 02:46 PM (#3978578)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Is a pillock of a higher order than an idiot, or is it simply the gormless insults of a bereft wazzock?


23 Feb 19 - 02:56 PM (#3978582)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

. I'm guessing that there should be a word, or phrase, between 'all' and 'changes'. But in the absence of such, it makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense, since 'changes' there is a verb, not a noun. Using a slightly different tense you would have "without a deal, all is changed and drivers will be expected.."


23 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM (#3978587)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

ut if the UK leaves without a deal, all changes and drivers will be expected to carry a green card when in mainland Europe and Ireland. They are likely to be issued by an insurance company for free, but the industry is warning it could take up to a month to obtain one, so if no deal happens and you're booked to go away with the car this Easter, you will need to act fast.

This can of course be reciprocated for any EU vehicles traversing the UK. Yet another expense to be picked up by Irish trucks. Typical Guardian to give half the story.
Still looking on the bright side,the lousy rag will go belly up hortly. By the number of times it's online presence is begging for dosh it would appear its lefty business model suffers from the usual problem of having largely squandered other people's money.


23 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM (#3978591)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Is a pillock of a higher order than an idiot, or is it simply the gormless insults of a bereft wazzock?"

Hilarious coming, as it does, from the most aggressive, insulting poster on this forum.

Medice, cura te ipsum.


23 Feb 19 - 03:57 PM (#3978598)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Economically a hard Brexit will hit Britain severely too. Ireland is her biggest trading partner. If the UK leaves with no deal, she will be obliged to replace each one from scratch, with every nation individually. And the USA is currently unpredictable in that sphere, so no assurances there. With Europe acting as a bloc, that's not a secure place to be, as numerous British fiscal experts have warned. So it cuts both ways. This impasse is not chiefly about political ideals.

The real issue in Ireland, north and south, is less Brexit-pro-vs-con (though the North did vote to remain) as the spectre of Brexit with no deal. In addition to the financial aspects, it will almost certainly return us - on both sides of the border - to violence and personal endangerment. (And is Britain really prepared to send in armed forces?) No Irish government is going to sit still for that. Why should they put their own citizens at risk?

They're only holding May to what she already consented to: i.e., a backstop. The Good Friday Agreement was also a mutually signed treaty, parts of which are now being blithely disregarded. I don't know why May feels entitled to go back on her word, nor where the sense of injury comes from. Neither Europe nor Ireland kicked the UK out. It kicked itself out.

I'm a dual British/American citizen, resident in the Republic of Ireland for longer than either my native country or my naturalised one - both of whom I love. It gives me no joy to write this.


23 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM (#3978604)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It gives me no joy to write this.

A most important point, there, so thanks for raising it. Those who oppose the no deal Brexit are being accused of gloating, and no doubt will be even more if there are problems.

I will take no pleasure at in anything that goes wrong. I, and I believe most people on the remain or softest possible Brexit side, want all the people of this country to do well and will take no pleasure in any difficulties that come their way.


23 Feb 19 - 05:04 PM (#3978609)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Bonnie, my tongue was firmly in my cheek.


23 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM (#3978611)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

The UK is in no position to make things difficult for Irish or continental trucks carrying food to the UK. We need to eat. It would be similar to the Venezualan aid convoy. Except that we can pay if the food can get through. May seems determined to hold a gun to our heads over a no deal brexit, is she prepared to try to starve her population into submission?


23 Feb 19 - 05:19 PM (#3978616)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Ireland is her biggest trading partner. ?????????

The UK is the second major destination for Irish exports 12%
but exports to Ireland represent 5.5$ of UK exports and ranks 10th as a Trading partner of the UK and has generated a trade surplus annually since 1990.
I suspect your phrasing is back to front. This makes a significant difference,


23 Feb 19 - 05:22 PM (#3978617)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean


23 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM (#3978618)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Sorry, I didn’t realise I’d hit Submit... that was not intended as any kind of sarky “response”. (Damn iPad keyboards.) Whoever the biggest is, Ireland is part of a 27-nation economic bloc, and Britain will be left out - I believe struggling - on her own. I cannot tell you how much that thought breaks my heart.


23 Feb 19 - 06:36 PM (#3978629)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

For the benefit of American readers, a 'wazzock' is a root vegetable grown mostly in Cornwall and frequently fed to pigs.


A 'pillock' is a sort of medication, in solid form, usually taken with water. As opposed to a capsule or capsulock.


24 Feb 19 - 03:46 AM (#3978655)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

According to the Sunday Times:

A vicious cabinet war erupted last night over a plot by senior ministers to delay Brexit, as Theresa May looked certain to shelve plans for a Commons vote on her deal this week.

=======

This ability of one person to manipulate Parliament by making promises to assuage rebellions at that time, only to renage on them.later is proving to be a major flaw in our system. Whether or not May does so this time, she has done it in the past. One the Brexiteers will agree with: since the Speaker selects which amendments are called and which are not, that role has a tremendous power vested in one individual.

I suspect whatever happens we might see motions over the next few months trying to give Parliament more powers rather than individuals.


24 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM (#3978660)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Karen I suspect your dictionary is in severe need of revision!


25 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM (#3978889)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

"Is Britain prepared to send in armed forces? No Irish government is going to sit still for that."


I very much doubt if 'Britain' is contemplating invading the Irish Republic, the Irish government has no need to sit/stand/worry about that.


Regarding deploying UK troops in Northern Ireland, if the need arises I see no problem, it's well established that there are plans to use the army post-Brexit in the UK if necessary. I sincerely hope that there are military/security service staff in the North of Ireland already as there have been mutterings about nationalist violence and this would seem to be a sensible precaution.


25 Feb 19 - 07:42 AM (#3978923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"it's well established that there are plans to use the army post-Brexit in the UK if necessary."

Governments plan for all sorts of contingencies and actually wargame some. The US had plans to invade Canada
to plan for something is not necessarily to mean it will happen.

Corbyn wargamed for a catastrophic drop in the value of the pound, should he become premier. The argument over wheter that was merely precautionary or mandatory I leave to others!


25 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM (#3978965)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Iains

I leave expertise on wargaming to you. I was just trying to unpick a post that I found a bit confused.


25 Feb 19 - 12:02 PM (#3978972)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

You'll find it less confused if you don't quote out of context. I wrote:

In addition to the financial aspects, [a no-deal Brexit] will almost certainly return us - on both sides of the border - to violence and personal endangerment. (And is Britain really prepared to send in armed forces?) No Irish government is going to sit still for that. Why should they put their own citizens at risk?

In other words, the question about armed forces is parenthetical - and rhetorical. The not-sitting-still referred to the dangers of a hard border, in light of the pressure May is putting on Ireland to limit/weaken the Backstop - which is the only thing preventing it, if there's a hard Brexit. A closed border, sooner or later will result in violence here, on both sides of it. Maybe I didn't make it clear (I was also writing in light of my previous post a few messages down.) But a hard Brexit is looking increasingly likely, and the domino effect is all too inevitable.


25 Feb 19 - 12:30 PM (#3978978)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Karen the only expertise I would claim to have in life is the ability to breathe.


25 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM (#3978982)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

OK and thanks.


25 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM (#3978983)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

The Irish Government, then, is in effect, bringing about the hard Brexit that they would appear not to want? Because it is their insistence on this 'backstop' that seems to be driving the EU position.


25 Feb 19 - 01:18 PM (#3978986)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

What??? Thats an extraordinary interpretation. It is May's insistence on being outside the customs union which creates the need for the backstop. Hardly reasonable to blame the Irish.


25 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM (#3978992)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Because it is their insistence on this 'backstop' that seems to be driving the EU position."
Extraordinarily lack of understand at what a hard Brexit would mean to Ireland, including the reopening of sectarian violence
Brexit is already threatening Irish industry (North and South) and costing billions to guard against
As Varadkar said - Brexit is Britain'e decision and it is their responsibility to work it through without constantly passing the buck to those they are laready damaging
One of the best things that could come out of this circus is the removing of partition - at least everyone would save on the future cost of body-bags
Jim carroll


25 Feb 19 - 02:01 PM (#3978997)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

I think thats right Jim, a move towards a united Ireland is one of the few, perhaps the only, upside of brexit.


25 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM (#3979000)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Karen, re-read my last post, and read up on some history. I already said that the armed-forces remark was rhetorical. Of COURSE they're not going to. I am not worried about that, so don't misrepresent me.

May already agreed to the backstop (a fallback measure to prevent a closed border in the event of hard Brexit) in her initial deal. Now she want to undo it, effectively going back on the promises she made in her own deal. Ireland isn't the bad guy for needing to protect itself from the risks of internal violence - so it's *not* about the British army, OK?

May now wants to change the deal she herself presented and signed, to appease the hardliners in her party. And the open border was already enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement, a treaty that Britain signed. Taking away the Backstop will be disastrous for Ireland on both sides (and the North is, after all, in the UK). Ireland didn't create this mess. Look at the bigger picture, get the facts straight, and please stop cherry-picking.


25 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM (#3979005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Corbyn has just said if both May's proposed deal and Labour's are rejected, then Labour willl back a second referendum.

There is some doubt as to what the options would be that it would support, but one step at a time...


25 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM (#3979006)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

" a move towards a united Ireland "
I would much rather this happened for a positive reason rather than an 'any port in the storm one though
The on thing about this is that Brexit has enabled the different groups to unite in contrast to the UK where once united party has shattered itself into smithereens taking the rest of Britain with it.
Having to wait for a plumber and putting up with 60mph fog does have its compensations
Jim


25 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM (#3979007)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

Brexit has an equivalence in quantum mechanics. Right now there is a super imposition of all states/possibilities. We can not know the position or outcome. No matter how radical the outcome it will become orthodoxy in time and you will know the true position you are in.

Psychologically
When this baby Brexit is born it will slowly develop. You will go through a phase where Britain will think Brexit is still a joke like peek a boo game because you have not learned object permanency yet. A true position will emerge whether there are any benefits as self awareness develops.

Some forecasts of disasters or legendary traffic jams in the Chunnel have only helped to make the crises to become more manageable.

As orthodoxy = radicalism + time you will learn your worst fears and best hopes will only be understood after a full year passes.

At this late date I see this baby is coming for good bad or indifferent. imo


25 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM (#3979023)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

That Ireland will be still part of the EU seems a pretty positive reason to me.


25 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM (#3979036)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Schrödinger's Brexit... love it, Donuel.

May delays the meaningful vote. Again. I set my hair on fire (whatever's left of it that hasn't already been incinerated).

The Cooper/Letwin amendment - fingers crossed - passes (getting more likely by the day, especially now that Corbyn's on board).

Meaningful Vote comes on March 12th.

(a) May's deal is approved. Hard Brexit is off the table.
(b) May's deal is defeated. Hard Brexit is effectively off the table.
Because Cooper/Letwin deadline is the 13th.

Britain isn't left alone out in the economic cold.
Ireland doesn't tear itself apart.
Everybody eats.
I reach for the fire extinguisher and douse my hair.


25 Feb 19 - 05:37 PM (#3979040)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?


25 Feb 19 - 05:44 PM (#3979042)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?
Not until you can give good news about Brexit beyond "We are leaving on 29th" which is your normal response to Raggy's requests!


25 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM (#3979044)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

"Hard Brexit is off the table" doesn't mean that Brexit itself is off the table. Only hard Brexit. You know, the one that means leaving without a deal. Remain doesn't figure in the March 12th scenario.


25 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM (#3979047)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I've been opposed to referendums for at least four decades, but I've decided in extremis that a people's vote is quite literally the only way out of this morass. I'm holding my nose here, but I hope that Labour's tentative moves in that direction bear fruit. In another referendum this country will vote remain, and that is the only solution to this that won't wreck this country.


25 Feb 19 - 07:03 PM (#3979057)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

But will, hopefully, wreck the Tory party :-)


26 Feb 19 - 03:23 AM (#3979095)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Sorry Jim

Your posts were among my sources of information that 'sectarian violence' was likely to be an outcome of a hard Brexit. So I am aware of the risk, and you are wrong to claim I am ignorant of it.

That risk is precisely why, whatever Bonnie did nor did not intend to say, there is a chance of UK troops being deployed in the North of Ireland. Working on the assumption that the UK government has the brains to see that there is a risk of sectarian violence it makes sense for them to have 'military' and other intelligence at work monitoring those likely to instigate such violence. I hope they have.

Let's not say 'sectarian violence', let's say 'murder', car bombings, knee cappings, pub bombings, tarring and feathering and all the rest of it. And protection rackets and so on while we're at it.

And I think one of the main things that brought about a reduction in this was whichever POTUS stamped down on the US sending money to fund the Irish terrorists.


26 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM (#3979096)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

And you cannot blame 'history' especially some half-baked romanticised notions that once upon a time there was a united country called Ireland or whatever the Celtic word was, for modern day violence.


26 Feb 19 - 03:27 AM (#3979097)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices.

I don't buy 'A nasty British big boy did it six hundred years ago and ran away' as an excuse.


26 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM (#3979103)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

kAREN, There is a simple solution, the uk and ireland agree on a referendum which involves the total people of the island of ireland, the referendum is a united ireland northen ireland then gets its wish to remain in europe, the referendum is imo likely to be in favour of a united ireland.


26 Feb 19 - 04:10 AM (#3979104)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

The above is more likely to happen if a labour or liberal government were elected rather than the conservative paRty relying on the support of the DUP


26 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM (#3979116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"t will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices".
No it most certainly will not be - it will be the fault of whoever drew a line across Ireland designation a large slice of it to be British - how unnatural is that
As it stands, Brexit has already begun to eat into the economy of Ireland, both north and South - installing a hard border would accelerate that substantially
Britain has deliberately used the DUP to push Brexit through - how on earth do you expect the Irish people to react to that ?
There really is a chance of a reawakening of the old conflicts and once again that can be laid squarely at the doors of Westminster
The British don't seem to have the slightest concept of the continuing effects of colonisation on the victims of that long dead means of dominating entire nations   
JIm Carroll


26 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM (#3979117)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

In another referendum this country will vote remain

The laddie has a hotline to God I suppose, or is it merely whimsy, or perhaps his delusions let him think his bizarre views are sufficient to bully the electorate?
Fact:
Poll 23.2.19
Leave 41%
Remain 45%
Undecided 13%

Level of uncertainty? well don't ask a bookie. They were hopelessly wrong last time around.
I would imagine if we go down the road of another referendum and betray democracy then whoever has the best soundbite prior to polling will win the day.
After all it is a well known fact on this forum that the people are sheep. It is also a well known fact that if you want the sheep to go in a certain direction and your dog is having an off day, then rattling a bucket is all you need to do.
Question: does the leave or remain bucket contain the sheep nuts?


26 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM (#3979126)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

"And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices."

Karen you seem to overlook the fact that this whole debacle was brought about by the UK decision to leave the EU.

The UK Government knew, or should have known, the ramifications of such a decision so if any blame is to be laid it should firmly be at the door of the UK Government.


26 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM (#3979144)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

The fault is squarely on the shoulders of Cameron who would not stand up to the bully boys of the right wing. He was shit scared of losing power so caved in to the right within his own party and in the likes of UKIP. Any politician worth his salt would have demolished the xenophobic little Englander arguments and sent them packing but he played his little populist game and lost big time.

All subsequent moves by May and this useless bunch of tossers has been trying to get out of flushing the country, along with their careers, down the pan while trying to play down the fact that they dropped us in this shit in the first place.


26 Feb 19 - 08:08 AM (#3979152)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Apparently Farage has said if there is another referendum with a choice between May's deal and remain, leavers should boycott it.

Suits me.


26 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM (#3979176)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Great btexit news at last! The pound is climbing against the Euro :-)


Oh. Hang on. Seems to be because it looks like brexit will be delayed. Ah well. I suppose we will just have to wait for the unicorns after all...


26 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM (#3979194)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

And if May runs true to form via her usual bait-&-switch, and breaks her word at the last minute? She could just be playing My Deal Or No Deal poker, using the nation's ass as a bargaining chip, and wasting still more time. I trust her promises exactly as far as I can throw a 44-ton lorry.

I'm not thinking Remain-vs-Leave. Just Deal-vs-Crashout.


26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM (#3979203)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll


26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM (#3979204)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll


26 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM (#3979207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Or boxing very clever of course
Perfect timing to demand a second vote
Jim Carroll


26 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM (#3979211)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Or boxing very clever of course"

I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition.
The great guido has the measure of the man, and some of the accompanying comments pull no punches.
Corbyn is totally unfitted to be a future PM.


https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/


26 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM (#3979230)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick

"I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition." .............Iains

"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity." ............. George Orwell


26 Feb 19 - 04:57 PM (#3979248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.
In my own case to describe corbyn as clever would be deceitful.
To describe corbyn as duplicitous would be in the alternative sense of
someone who always lies to get their way.
nowt insincere in any of my posts I can assure you. and Orwell is on another thread. Best kept there otherwise a few get confused


26 Feb 19 - 05:23 PM (#3979250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Whilst I have no wish yo engage with you, I would suggest that you re-read your last two posts, which are at odds with each other.


26 Feb 19 - 05:24 PM (#3979251)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

yo = to.


27 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM (#3979286)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Stop prodding the ants Steve - everything his says is an inane contradiction
Jim


27 Feb 19 - 03:47 AM (#3979297)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

More thread drift from the usual cabal.Obviously nothing sensible to contribute as usual. Here is a little gem from your favourite source the illustrious guido:

Commie Corbyn refuses to support hezbollah ban


https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/

Aesop: “A man is known by the company he keeps”

I presume if you support corbyn you support the terrorist organisation hezbollah.


27 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM (#3979307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47377548


27 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM (#3979311)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it.


27 Feb 19 - 04:59 AM (#3979315)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it."
Please don't siplify a complicated and very dangerous situation
Permanenet peace in Ireland depends on the Good Friday agreement being seen through to a satisfactory conclusion
The DUP, in supporting Brexit, is drawing away from that solution, its main reason being maintaining British rule
Trivialising it really doesn't help understand it

This morning's announcement from Westminster that it is finally admitted that Norther Ireland will be far more severely hit by Brexit that will Britain will almost certainly add fuel to an already sensitive situation
Crashing out and leaving a hard border will just about clinch it

Singer Frank Harte once gave a talk on Irish political songs to a group of rather staid English Folkies at Loughborough around the time of 'The Troubles'
He began his talk:
"The British have never understood the Irish"
Pregnant pause
"But the Irish have always understood the British"
Never seen so many squirming bottoms
Jim Carroll


27 Feb 19 - 09:37 AM (#3979363)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

i've seen many ridiculous and abusive points on here - and i know we should ignore them but..... is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist? perhaps if you are resisting occupation by a ruling military force....otherwise a communist is usually as pro-establishment as you can get.


27 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM (#3979395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist

Franco thought so. Thousands of british Communists went over and were regarded by Franco the same as we regard ISIS. That is why the Brirish security forces distrusted and kept tabs on them.
Even the lefty rag the gruniard agrees:
Today they would be arrested under section five of the Terrorism Act 2006. If convicted of fighting abroad with a "political, ideological, religious or racial motive" – a charge they would find hard to contest – they would face a maximum sentence of life in prison. That they were fighting to defend an elected government against a fascist rebellion would have no bearing on the case. They would go down as terrorists.(and quite rightly so).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/10/orwell-hero-terrorism-syria-british-fighters-damned


27 Feb 19 - 12:52 PM (#3979407)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Good if you put upan unopenavble link and miss out the important bits
Article well worth reading

Whatever you might think of armed intervention in Syria, by states or citizens, Hemming's warning illustrates the arbitrary nature of our terrorism laws, the ring they throw around certain acts of violence while ignoring others, the risk that they will be used against brown and bearded people who present no threat. The non-intervention agreement of 1936 was not the last elaborate system of official humbug the British government devised."


27 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM (#3979411)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Are you speaking double dutch above.
the apple does not fall far from the tree does it?
Do like the new paint box! Does it have pastels as well?


27 Feb 19 - 01:13 PM (#3979412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Will be interesting to see if Cohen's massive dump on Trump - "Conman, racist, liar - forged cheques, collusion with Russia, conspiracy over Clinton e-mails.... will have any effect on BRITISH/AMERICAN RELATIONS
Jim Carroll


27 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM (#3979415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Does it have pastels as well"
Game, set and match, I think
Jim Carroll


27 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM (#3979419)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I don't believe that is cricket!


27 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM (#3979421)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist?

See; the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cambodia, the Red Brigades, the Front Line and the Red Army Faction.


27 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM (#3979429)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Perhaps, as Israel is now being accused by American Rabbis of colluding with a group described as being equivalent to the KKK, there's a name that should be added to your list Bobad
You can throw these in FOR GOOD MEASURE
Jim Carroll


28 Feb 19 - 05:09 AM (#3979515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Ah, over-simplification criticised and then a good example of it given, an example from Frank Harte (whoever he is).

This word 'British'. Lots of Irish think of themselves as British.


28 Feb 19 - 05:23 AM (#3979520)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it.

I still don't buy it, and thank you for the recap on Good Friday and DUP policies but I knew about that and I still don't buy it.

"Yes I bombed them, I killed/kneed-capped/mutilated/punishment shot various young people/women/children but HISTORY MADE ME DO IT. It's your fault for not keeping to the Good Friday agreement and for voting for Brexit'

Geddit? I don't buy it. It's a choice, not history.


28 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM (#3979522)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Lots of Irish think of themselves as British."
You know that - o course ?
Not in my part of Ireland they don't - can't think of one
Those who do, do so because their Britishness was either forced upon them 100 years ago as a "temporary measure" to gain a peace that was never fulfilled, or to dominate in a deliberately created sectarian Protestant State
The most artificial thing you could possibly do is draw a line across a country and call part of it it somewhere else - it robs people of their national, cultural and historical identity and is guaranteed to creat a permanent industry of body-bag manufacture
I'm afraid Frank Harte's words are being borne out by your own display of both British arrogance and a lack of knowledge of the Irish people, who they actually are and who you appear to wish them to be.
Jim


28 Feb 19 - 05:29 AM (#3979524)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

No it most certainly will not be - it will be the fault of whoever drew a line across Ireland designation a large slice of it to be British - how unnatural is that

Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder eachother on religious grounds and the wishes of the majority of those in Northern Ireland. And I think they designated it 'Northern Ireland'.

There was never a political entity called 'Ireland' before the Normans/Welsh went in. It was a collection of squabbling petty chiefdoms, rather like much of Europe at that time.

I can only hope that they crack down hard on any sectarian violence and on those who justify it through emotive nonsense like 'unnatural'.


28 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM (#3979525)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

And, while I am enjoying myself thinking and arguing outside the box, this dual citizenship stuff ought to go to. Pick one or the other, none of this two passports rubbish, especially for people expressing hatred of the 'British'.


28 Feb 19 - 06:09 AM (#3979535)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder eachother"
THat's an indredibly racist statement Karen -
The wars in Ireland can all be traced back to rid themselves of an Imperial power - on the whole, the people in general get on with one another, no matter what their different religions
Any sectarian violence that occured arose from the creation of an unequal secrtarian State by Britain - the first shots were fired Loyalists and the major violence broke out when Civil Rights protest marches for equality were diverted thought stone throwing mobs made up of the same bigots
Regarding your very revealing foot in mouth about aspiring to be
"British" - the majority 'British-linked' people of Northern Ireland have their roots in Scotland, a country that was treated similarly by the empire
I think we're finished here - I can get most of this sort of thing from a Tommy Robinson site - please take your anti-Irish hatred eslewhere - we've already got one of them
Jim Carroll


28 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM (#3979545)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Jim
I am merely responding in kind to your posts. If you cannot take it do not dish it out. You yourself referred to sectarian violence. Talk about having your cake and eating it.


28 Feb 19 - 07:10 AM (#3979548)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I am merely responding in kind to your posts."
I have never imn my life racially attacked anybody - there id no excuse for your behaviour here Karen
Nor have I insulted anybody personally - certainly not you
Finis
Jim Carroll


28 Feb 19 - 11:21 AM (#3979581)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Nor have I insulted anybody personally - certainly not you


and I am the christmas fairy that fell off the tree!


01 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM (#3979701)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Euro tunnel start legal challenge to ferry deals

It seems the Government has set aside 800K for this. When they talked about money being set aside to address no-deal issues, this was not what I had in mind.


01 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM (#3979712)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

The government has already settled, to the tune of £33 million. They can't defend the case, and they know it. More money hemorrhaging out, over asshattery that never should have happened.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47414699


01 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM (#3979715)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

I'm another fairy. Pointing out that Irish tendency to murder eachother isn't racist. Poet Seamus Heaney did it.


01 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM (#3979716)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Just a bit of evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Real_Irish_Republican_Army_actions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Cemetery_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_Volunteer_Force


01 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM (#3979717)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

And I stand by my point: if there is a return to what JIM has called 'sectarian violence' on a large scale (because I am not convinced it ever completely went away) then this will not be 'because' of Brexit or 'because' of some failure of the Good Friday agreement but 'because' some people, maybe 'bigots', as JIM described loyalists but I think Catholics can be just as bigoted, CHOOSE violence.

And I for one don't think they should.


01 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM (#3979721)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Meanwhile, The US repeats what it hopes to get from a trade deal

As I said earlier, this in line with what Raab and co published as characterizing the ideal trade agreement.


01 Mar 19 - 08:32 AM (#3979723)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

And I have read a fair bit of Irish history, which is how I know that in Medieval times there was a collection of warring chieftains and not a united country. There was a warrior aristocracy. Plus of course the bits ruled by Vikings who founded quite a lot of towns. There may have been some sort of 'high king' but this seems dubious and the position was contested at the time. I think I have this right.

In so far as the country was Catholic (and at one time it was at odds with Rome about the form of Christianity) then it cannot complain about the Pope giving it to Henry VIII of England and I don't suppose many did so at the time.

Not sure whether Jim would count descendants of the Anglo-Normans as Irish, they used to be called the 'Old English'.

etc etc etc


01 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM (#3979724)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Wolfe Tone? Robert Emmet? Descended from incoming 'planters'.


And the 'celtic revival' was largely brought about by wait for it writers of a protestant or Anglo Irish background.


So now who's over-simplifying? Not to mention being a tad patronising eh Jim lad?


01 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM (#3979726)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

And what do the English make of all this? Well, I won't generalise, but I do recall at the height of the troubles people saying angrily we should just nuke the lot of them. But I think that might be going a tad too far :)_


01 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM (#3979729)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

> Meanwhile, The US repeats what it hopes to get from a trade deal

and Britain socks it back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47418505

The US wants "comprehensive market access" for its farmers' products that would see more US-made food on British supermarket shelves. European Union rules currently limit US exports of certain food products, including chlorine-washed chicken and hormone-boosted beef. If free of EU trade rules, the US wants the UK to remove such so-called "sanitary and physiosanitary" standards on its farm exports.

Yeah, that always ends well.

Trump "also demands that the pound not be 'manipulated' to improve trade income or make UK products cheaper in the US." The pounds that are really going to get manipulated are those that measure body-weight.


02 Mar 19 - 03:23 AM (#3979793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Medieval history -
Ireland was reluctantly colonised for eight centuries - religion divided the world and burned its opponents alive - Henry VIII bulti the biggest bonfires so he could get his leg over - which sums pup the clonisres rather than their victims
Try reading up The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years
Your remarks were racist and inexcusable
Please don't repeat them - there's already too much of that
Jim Carroll


02 Mar 19 - 03:36 AM (#3979797)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Try reading up The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years

HORSE SHIT!


02 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM (#3979800)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

For Brexit, all that matters is that the Irish border question is highly significant to both sides and has been an area of violence very recently. All this historical stuff is good background, but it is all about WHY the border is significant. The important thing from now on is THAT it is significant.

For example, the recent US ideas on what a trade deal would involve in changes of standards will be of vital importance to NI/Ireland and would still be even if none of that history had happened.


02 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM (#3979801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

There was a particularly unthinking Brexiteer on Newsnight a few evenings ago talking about the difference in standard on both sides of the border - he was happy to be on US standards whatever the Government might say. All you have to do, apparently, is to agree to recognise each other's standards.

The spirit of "The easiest deal in history" lives on, I see. Just reach an agreement, that's all. Which we are doing so successfully for every aspect of Brexit.

Just reach an agreement. I could barely contain my laughter.


02 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM (#3979805)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

'HORSE SHIT' seems a tad extreme. But it does seem to me that Jim is not one to let a nuanced and carefully researched historical view of the tragedy that was the potato famine get in the way of a bit of irrational bile.

'sums pup the clonisres'. Gaelic? :)


02 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM (#3979807)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I can accept the Irish Famine was a tragedy caused by ignorance, incompetence and misplaced Victorian morality. To attempt to portray ir as an act of deliberate genocide is the irrational delusion of a venomous old man witha massive chip on his shoulder concerning all things English because in modern parlance his father would be declared a terrorist.
      For deliberate read the Highland Clearances


02 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM (#3979808)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Back to Brexit.

Something that has slipped under my radar. Rees Mogg the arch brexiteer moved some of his investment company Somerset Capital Management to Dublin last year.

So much for "we're all in this together" eh!


Rees Mogg

Any good news yet?


02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM (#3979813)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"irrational bile."
The only irrational bile is your revealing racist outburst and Iain's persistent ""bogtrotter" hatred
Let's leave it where it is eh
Behaviour like this puts Brexit exactly where it belongs - ignorance besed bigotry
PROBABLY MORE BOGTROTTING IN_FIGHTING

Jim Carroll


02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM (#3979814)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"irrational bile."
The only irrational bile is your revealing racist outburst and Iain's persistent ""bogtrotter" hatred
Let's leave it where it is eh
Behaviour like this puts Brexit exactly where it belongs - ignorance besed bigotry
PROBABLY MORE BOGTROTTING IN_FIGHTING

Jim Carroll


02 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM (#3979815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Jacob Rees-Mogg claims that the European project proves “the more Europe, the worse you do” - amid mounting fears over economic collapse
in the EU.

The EU Titanic


Unless betrayed we will not be part of such nonsense. Spiffing News!


02 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM (#3979826)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Betrayal eh ......... strong word.

But not quite as strong an indication as moving some of your investment company to a eurozone, or as some may term it a betrayal of one's principles.

If he ever had any.


02 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM (#3979839)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

i read that the nicotine-stained man frog is planning a 'leave means leave' march from sunderland to london. that's 281 miles in 20 days. how marvelous! what unlimited comic potential (or possibly a 'Slow TV' opportunity. Carry on Brexit? or'Triumph of the Will' as half a dozen puffing 50 somethings manage to wobble past the 3rd open pub of the day's journey. i look forward to seeing NF (just noticed that connection...hmm) giving up the tweed for a tracksuit and sweatband.

any opposition to this carnival would i hope be entirely jovial piss-taking with no aggression - any suggestions?


02 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM (#3979855)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

And now for something completely. The font of accurate facts and critical analysis!

https://order-order.com/2019/03/01/eurozone-suffers-worst-manufacturing-slump-since-2013/

Oh Dear what can the matter be
   German cars are stuck in the factory
They'll be there for many a saturday
   destroying the EU budget with flair!


02 Mar 19 - 03:31 PM (#3979897)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Meanwhile one of your hero's is moving his wealth out of the UK into the EU to ensure that he doesn't suffer financially and you continue to act like a simpleton and say that is fine for my lords and masters.

Once again Idiot.


02 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM (#3979901)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Once again Idiot.    A fine example of a well structured leftard reply. To acknowledge others as your Lords and Masters suggests a massive inferiority complex, or perhaps a meek acceptance of your perceived place in society. The "rich man in his castle" and all that.
Never mind! keep buying the scratch cards!


02 Mar 19 - 04:30 PM (#3979906)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

One. I have never bought a scratch card in my life.

Two. I haven't bought a lottery ticket for over 15 years or perhaps more. I do acknowledge I very occasionally bought them when the lottery first started, though many years ago. (I now consider them to be idiot taxation)

Three. (and most importantly) If someone tells me that we should leave the EU and then that self same person moves some of his vast wealth to a EU based country I ask myself why.

Four. You post like an idiot and ........thus

Five. I can only conclude you are an idiot.


02 Mar 19 - 06:27 PM (#3979921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I don't even know what a scratchcard is. My old mate and I have jointly done the lottery for the last 25 years using the same numbers I used in the very first draw. Thirty bob a week each. Apart from that, it's the Grand National, a quid to win on one horse and a quid each way on a long shot. That's me lot when it comes to gambling.

I've been discussing Iains with the mods lately, Raggytash. The best policy is to blank him out and let him expose himself without response from us. He's a bit of a bobad when it comes to shifty dealings, so ignore him and let's see how it goes. I admit that I've been a fool on my own climate change thread but I'm reining meself in.


02 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM (#3979923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

I've been discussing Iains with the mods lately

Lololol............a sure sign he's feeling threatened by someone who's mounting a convincing counter argument to his position. He's done to others before so beware.


02 Mar 19 - 08:33 PM (#3979928)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Inexplicably, the pound has done quite well this week. Bought another couple of hundred euros, I have... I just hope the buggers will let me into Europe! I hear that a no-deal brexit could lead to passport delays amounting to five hours per aeroplane load. Didn't see that on the side of a bus!


03 Mar 19 - 01:17 AM (#3979952)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Irrational bile sounds good to me. Now let's leave this where it is eh?


03 Mar 19 - 01:19 AM (#3979953)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

It could be argued that people who dismiss as Irish people who came from Scotland several hundred years ago are 'racist', and, indeed, at least one Irish (as apparently defined by Jim) historians have suggested that at times Irish Nationalism has been tainted by 'racist' views of what being Irish is. Do people whose origins were, say, Muslim count as Irish in Jim's 'origins' based definition I wonder?


03 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM (#3979962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"It could be argued that people who dismiss as Irish people who came from Scotland several hundred years ago are 'racist', and, indeed, at least one Irish (as apparently defined by Jim)"
I have called nobody but you and Iains racist Karen - you both have sterotyped Irish people - you are "killing each other" - Iarins as "bogtrotters" - as racist in my book as it gets
In 1922 Britain forced through a treaty which deliberately created a sectarian (not racist) state giving the power to the two thirds majority - an unequal state in terms of property ownership, voting rights and employment.
That led to nearly half a century of sectarian based violence and culminated in open warfare
Members of my own family, including two small children, were driven from their home with only what they could carry in suitcases and on a pushchair containing th youngest child
When protests demanding Civil Rights broke out in the late sixties, peaceful demonstrators were directed by the police, through screaming mobs of Loyalist bigots - the result, several years of open warfare
None of this was racist - it was down to a sectarian state created and supported by Westminster
Now the same Westminster is still using the same sectarian group to keep its Government in office, sing teh British taxpayers money to do so
The consequences of Brexit are quite likely to lead to a renewal of violence between the two communities and until the Little Englanders over the water get their head around that fact, that will remain a threat
This has never been about race - the ordinary Irish people get on well together when they are not being used by England (Westminster is equally well-able to use the other national groups in Britain when it suits their purpose
Yours and you new friend's stereotyping of the Irish people is a disgrace
I suggest your go read a book, I doubt if your friend is able
Jim Carroll


03 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM (#3979967)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Of course Jim is clearly guilty of being in violation of The European Union Framework Decision for Combating Racism and Xenophobia (2007)

The text establishes that the following intentional conduct will be punishable in all EU Member States:

    - Publicly inciting to violence or hatred, even by dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.

The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years
This is a thinly veiled accusation of genocide and should be dealt with accordingly.
I trust the bitter old racist bigot feels proud of himself! He stands condemned by his own words.


03 Mar 19 - 04:08 AM (#3979968)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is quite amusing in its way that 'senior Tory MPs soften opposition to Brexit deal' in the Guardian's phrase. In short, Brady of amendment fame has recommended the acceptance of the deal to the 1922 committee if Cos can come back with a form of words to reassure them the border agreement is temporary. They seem to have forgotten that it was declared to be so 8 December 2017 "JOINT REPORT FROM THE NEGOTIATORS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED KINGDOM GOVERNMENT ON PROGRESS DURING PHASE 1 OF NEGOTIATIONS UNDER ARTICLE 50 paragraphs 42-56, which make use of phrases like "In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union" which make plain that these arrangement would end if an agreed alternative is in place.


There can be as much flannel as you wish says that the EU and UK do want to reach such an alternative agreement, but I think it is 100% certain any new words Cox brings back will keep that line: everything stays in place until a new agreement is reached.


03 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM (#3979971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

TO NO-ONE IN PARTICULAR
A WIDER VIEW - NOT PARTICULARLY FOR "BOGTROTTER RACISTS"
Jim Carroll


03 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM (#3979972)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Can I just hastily add a comment aimed at those of us who agree that we don't respond to a serial abuser
The Irish Question has once again become a major feature of British politics
We have two posters who have decided to adopt a racist attitude towards the Irish (one always has done)
For the sake of clarity, the subject needs to be nipped in the bud now before it gets a toe-hold
I have said what I believe needs to be said - as far as I am concerned, it ends there
Jim


03 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM (#3979981)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.

These are not the actions of a Government or a state bent on genocide."


Now are you paying attention jimmie?


03 Mar 19 - 07:29 AM (#3980003)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

An interesting clip

EU army?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uggLsHDEk4

Oh what a twisted web we weave........


03 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM (#3980012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

It is not 'racist' but a matter of historical fact that Irish people have killed other Irish people. Much of this happened in what was called 'The Troubles'. Jim himself accepted this when he said he supposed that Brexit might lead to a return to 'sectarian violence'. Note the word 'return'. On that basis he accepts the historical facts, which are that Irish people have killed eachother. I think I might have used words such as 'murdered' and also 'tarred and feathered' and 'punishment shootings' as well, none of which makes me racist.


03 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM (#3980015)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"It is not 'racist' but a matter of historical fact that Irish people have killed other Irish people."
As Brits have killed Brits and any other nationality that gets in their way
You used your racist accusation to justify partitioning Ireland yet it was the creation of a sectarian state by Britain along with the propping up of a sectarian minority that seet one group against the other
"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder each other"
Your Little Englander ignorance of the Irish question is breathtaking in its shallowness and your suggestion that the Irish would continue to slaughter each other is as racist as it gets
I really thought that sort of mentality died with the empire that used it to control most of the world
It is [petty significant that throughout the Troubles, despite claims such as yours, that the troops were only there to keep the peace, the Army carefully chose which side it was on and assisted that side in every way possible
The British establishment is still sprinting around like a blue-arsed fly attempting to cover up some of the atrocities it was part in and prevent the perpetrators having to stand trial for their actions

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/northern-ireland-backstop-the-troubles-theresa-may-brexit-european-union-red-lines-a8803336.html
Jim Carroll


03 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM (#3980020)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Let's all leave the deluded old fool in the wilderness where he belongs.

Meanwhile little gems from Guido the font of all political truths!

Strong competition within the Shadow Cabinet this morning for most brazenly dishonest line on a second referendum…


03 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM (#3980023)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Like every post from Guido it's says absolutely nothing.


03 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM (#3980024)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

It would be misleading to suggest that Ireland was the only place British rule left a mess being it of course
The Empire left a mess for the residents to mop up WHEREVER THEY PUT THEIR BIG FEET
Jim Carroll


03 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM (#3980033)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

My partner has informed my that Czech businesses are expecting to face losses of 30 billion Korun (about £1 bn) if UK leaves the EU. If that happend, UK tax payers must compensate Czech companies for the damage the nasty British little shits are doing to their betters. If they don't then they are no better than excrement.


03 Mar 19 - 10:06 AM (#3980036)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

https://order-order.com/2019/03/03/long-bailey-labour-arent-looking-overturn-referendum/


03 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM (#3980040)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

900!


03 Mar 19 - 10:51 AM (#3980050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Happy Birthday Baccy
You don't look a day over 89
Jim


03 Mar 19 - 03:39 PM (#3980093)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Back to the thread topic.

Restaurant critic A.A. Gill writing about Brexit in the Times before his death in Dec 2016. Words of great wisdom which our resident Brexit-Brigade would do well to consider, educate themselves, and get back to reality...

“It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me.
She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

"It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

"Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

"We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

"The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity. And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

"All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

"There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them. The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

"Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty

"We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

"Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

"When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

"Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

"Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’

"You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

"Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

"The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

"No time for walls: the best of Europe, from its music and food to IM Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre, depends on an easy collision of cultures.

"There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

"The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

"Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

"I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.”


03 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM (#3980095)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

yawm!


03 Mar 19 - 05:23 PM (#3980102)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Jim

I will just say once again that it was YOU who predicted that Brexit would lead to a return to "sectarian violence". You, yourself, personally.

Can't be bothered to respond to your twistings of what I posted and what I think.

Whatever.


03 Mar 19 - 05:46 PM (#3980106)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

You're calling me a 'Little Englander'?

WHAT that is THAT about? It's all in your head, Jim.

"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder each other". I'm standing by that: I think that this is precisely why the line was drawn where it was: because otherwise there would have been more bloodshed.


03 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM (#3980108)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Maybe, rather than spouting about DUP 'bigots' (are there no Catholic bigots?) and using the pejorative word 'Prods', Jim should think about some of the initiatives shown here, which also shows the depths of the problems:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47373925

The bit that caught my attention was 'children as young as two already exhibit signs of sectarian bigotry'.


03 Mar 19 - 06:11 PM (#3980109)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Backwoodsman, may I say that I prefer your postings without fecal expletives. I managed to read the first five or six paragraphs of your posting before giving up. It will hit the spot for remainers but for this leaver it is just a squashed toothpaste tube of irrelevant diatribe.

We are not leaving Europe. We are leaving the European Union. The European Union is a political construct that follows the pattern of the failed Roman Empire and the failed Catholic church. It is a hierarchical power structure that focuses power out of the hands of the demos into the hands of an elite. Long and soon may it fail.


03 Mar 19 - 07:00 PM (#3980117)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The European Union is a trading bloc first and foremost. It sets standards for trade as high as anywhere in the world. You can't have a trading bloc of 28 fiercely independent nations without politics. But nearly everything agreed by those countries is agreed by consensus. Any nation or commission who gets above itself is at the mercy of a very powerful veto structure. There is no European army because it has been vetoed by the UK. There is no ever-closer union because the UK doesn't want it. If you think that leaving is taking back control, come back in a couple of years' time, Stanron, and tell me how we've stopped the US from taking control of our trading standards. Do remember to tell us how to get the chlorine out of your Sunday roast. Remember to tell us how those hormones in your beef are helping to make your mouth water, and tell us triumphantly how you've taken back control of our food quality. The trouble is, Stanron, that every time you come on here posting about brexit you bring nothing apart from brainless received wisdom. You've never actually looked into anything first, never. I can only assume that you acquire your unthinking opinions from those braying Question Time audiences. It's a real shame, old chap. But you're not untypical, unfortunately for the well-being of this country.


03 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM (#3980122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

The European Union is not a trading bloc first and foremost. We had that with the EEC. Various treaties since then changed the Economic Community to a Political Community. If you don't have the intellectual chops to actually understand what has gone on since then you shouldn't post your misunderstandings here.


03 Mar 19 - 07:56 PM (#3980125)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

What absolute nonsense. Approximately half our trade, imports and exports, is with the EU. About one percent of our GDP is tied up with the EU and almost half of that is tied up with agriculture (and agriculture comprises around 0.75% of our GDP). Hardly any of our domestic laws that are not connected with EU trade and agriculture have anything to do with the EU. The EU has no say over our domestic legal system, our currency, our taxation policy or anything else to do with the way we decide to run the place. We have to abide by high standards of democracy, human rights and food safety. Any objection to that, Stanron, or would you rather have us dictated to by a country with far lower standards who don't need us though we need them? You can't win here, Stan, unless you turn yourself into a Boris. Thing is, some of us, unlike you, have bothered to look things up.


03 Mar 19 - 08:08 PM (#3980128)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Approximately half our trade is with an economy which is failing into recession. You think we should devote ourselves to support that?. I think we should align ourselves with a secure future outside of the EU. You talk about our being dictated to by the US. We are now dictated to by the EU. You cannot provide any evidence that EU authority is better for the UK than proposals by the USA.


03 Mar 19 - 08:23 PM (#3980129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

No, but we can read the bloody papers. Anyone for enforced chlorine chicken and hormonal beef, which we will have to take whether we like it or not because we've decided to take back control? Thing is, Stanron, I've given you some particular issues but all you can do is flail about with predigested generalities. Do try to focus.


04 Mar 19 - 02:32 AM (#3980137)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Of the approx. 34,000 laws on the UK 's statute book, only around 4,500 have been influenced by the EU. Of those approx. 4,500 laws, only 72 were 'forced on us' - i.e. we were out-voted and had to accept the decision of the majority. 72 laws out of a total of 34,000. Hardly a case of being 'controlled by' the EU, is it?

And regarding 'Elites', who do you think has driven the BrexShit campaign for the purposes of their own financial gain? Why it's the UK 's own Elite of course - shady, immensely wealthy characters in the shadows, acting for no other purpose than their own, huge financial interests, pushing the buttons of the bigots, the xenophobes, the Union-Jack-boxers-brigade, the easily-led, and the feeble-minded, in order to get their way. You think you're 'Taking Back Control', but you've been bamboozled by the UK's own Elite into giving them complete control, and their purpose has nothing to do with your best interests. And, of course, the controls which the EU currently have in place to rein-in their excesses will no longer apply after BrexShit. As Al Jolson famously said, "You ain't see nothing yet!".


04 Mar 19 - 03:10 AM (#3980138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

The weird thing, BWM, is that the people who are spouting the Brexit mantra are happy to believe the far right of the Tory party and UKIP, would like to to trade with Trump and countries far more totalitarian than the EU, yet try to tell us that Corbyn is too extreme and the EU is the big bogeyman. Do you see the pattern here? It is not entirely their own fault. The right wing media and puppet masters of the government are extremely powerful and have done their jobs well. It is up to us to try to destroy their grip on politics. Revolution no longer needs to use violence. Education released us from the thrall of the church. It will do the same with the new religion that has Murdoch as pope but it will take a while. The dinosaurs on here will die out and the young will shake their heads in disbelief.


04 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM (#3980141)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And with regard to Stanron's comment about my 'Fæcal expletives', it's my opinion that Brexit really is absolute shit, and everyone, including the Muppets who voted for it, will end up eating it. Therefore I reserve the right to continue to draw everyone's attention to that, and 'Brexshit' it will remain in anything and everything I post on the subject.

If anyone doesn't like it, I really don't give a rat's arse.


04 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM (#3980143)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I am not wholly swayed by the idea Brexit is largely driven by the elite protecting their financial interests. However when bills are pulled apparently because of money laundering amendments it raises questions.


04 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM (#3980165)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Arrff, arrff, arrff...something to give us a smile as the BrexShit catastrophe continues to roll on and on.

Hilarious - or it would be if Grayling wasn't such an utter twunt, but apparently an 'Untouchable' as far as The Praying Mantis is concerned.


04 Mar 19 - 12:56 PM (#3980173)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

Dave and the backwoodsman seem to admit the ridiculous eventuality of what's coming and the super rich may welcome it OR NOT depending on the version of reality they will see.. So why not let them see what is coming with a 'virtual' or a 'soft opening' of Brexit RIGHT NOW
Never mind the Schwartzfield equation reasoning for this but its time to throw the fear of god at those who reside in the black hole of untold wealth.


04 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM (#3980175)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Backwoodsman, If May chooses to hand back her library ticket that is her choice. I choose not to give mine back.


04 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM (#3980177)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

OK Donuel, if we have a trial 'Brexit' then let that include consular officiels at every point of entry in the EU (at no cost to the tax payer) to intervene in case a fascist border-official tries to prevent freedom of movement for UK nationals. Lets have a commitment whereby every time a UK national is denied a single benefit of EU membership, that this is automatically escalated into a full diplomatic incident.


05 Mar 19 - 08:03 AM (#3980300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

More gloomy reports about a no deal Brexit this time from BMW who suggest that jobs would be at risk in their Cowley plant if no deal is reached over Brexit. This is on top of a similar warning from Toyota.

Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?





05 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM (#3980301)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/05/bmw-mini-cowley-no-deal-brexit-toyota


05 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM (#3980331)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Interesting discussion of the future validity of driving licenses held by British citizens domiciled here

"Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?"
APPARENTLY NOT
Jim


05 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM (#3980335)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

If police outside of UK try to fine motorists for not having an IDP, just need to say that they must send the penalty notice for the personal attention of May, and UK tax payers or the Conservative party, or Department of Transport employees will pay it. No further discussion required.


05 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM (#3980343)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

So I wonder how the brexiteers will spin the loss of a British icon such as the mini? Thats taking out country back, isn't it?


05 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM (#3980358)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

THEY'LL PROBABLY MINIMISE IT'S IMPORTANCE
jIM


05 Mar 19 - 01:56 PM (#3980368)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Yebbut, yebbut, yebbut..."Weer taking are cuntry back".


05 Mar 19 - 02:24 PM (#3980371)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Yeah. Back to the stone age.


05 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM (#3980383)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Precisely, Bonnie.


06 Mar 19 - 04:27 AM (#3980461)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

A piece in today's Guardian entitled "Food fight: doubts grow over post-Brexit standards" not only highlights in some detail the poor agricultural practices in the US which are bound to cause conflict in negotiations for any trade deal but also must have us doubting whether we can reach any sort of deal with the US at all (even Toryboy George Eustice has those doubts). If you think it's just about the talismanic chlorinated chicken spat, read the piece. That particular example of fowl play is just the tip of the iceberg.


06 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM (#3980463)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The FDA allows up to 4% of a can of cherries to have maggots, 5% if they are brined or Maraschino. Up to one maggot or five fly eggs per 250ml of canned fruit juice is also allowed under American food regulations.
Tomato juice is good, you can have up to five fly eggs and one maggot per 100g of tomato juice. Fifteen fly eggs and one maggot per 100g is allowed for tomato paste and other pizza sauces. Mushrooms are really sexy, mushrooms you can have twenty maggots of any size per 100g of drained mushrooms or per 15g of dried mushrooms. That's twenty maggots of any size.
It means thatAmericans at the moment are on average are likely to ingest between one and two pounds of flies, maggots and mites each year without knowing it.

"Now the FDA say that's safe and they're probably right and the future of protein consumption is probably going to involve more and more insects

The eggs, larvae, pupae, and adults of certain insects have been eaten by humans from prehistoric times to the present day. Around 3,000 ethnic groups practice entomophagy. Human insect-eating is common to cultures in most parts of the world, including Central and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, and New Zealand. Eighty percent of the world's nations eat insects of 1,000 to 2,000 species. In some societies entomophagy is uncommon or taboo. Today, insect eating is uncommon in North America and Europe, but insects remain a popular food elsewhere, and some companies are trying to introduce insects as food into Western diets. FAO has registered some 1,900 edible insect species and estimates that there were, in 2005, some two billion insect consumers worldwide. They suggest eating insects as a possible solution to environmental degradation caused by livestock production.


Bush Tucker Man


06 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM (#3980464)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

What bothers me a bit about the chlorinated chicken spat is how it is all being presented about food safety. When the subject cropped up a while back a survey suggested that animal welfare was a big concern to UK consumers, not just food safety.

How convenient it is to forget that.


06 Mar 19 - 05:26 AM (#3980471)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Iains, thats a diversionary tactic, this isn't about eating insects, it is about bacteria, growth hormones and antibiotics. Yes I would be prepared to eat insects. But not ones produced to US food hygiene standards.


06 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM (#3980472)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I wonder what the yanks on here think about their chlorinated chicken, hormonal beef and the rest. I suppose not many of them bother clicking on brexit threads (which could indicate that they enjoy a higher level of sanity than we Brits).

I'm reminded of the graffiti I saw on a toilet cubicle wall when I was at Imperial College in 1969: "Eat shit. 150,000,000 flies can't be wrong."


06 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM (#3980473)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Try to ignore him, David.


06 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM (#3980481)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

David Carter.I suspect in the US the agenda is driven by multinational
"food" companies whereas in the EU it is driven by faceless bureaucrats.
Difficult to determine which is the better for looking after the consumer. Superficially it would appear no contest. In detail perhaps a slightly different story emerges. Neither is on the side of angels.


06 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM (#3980546)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Germany’s prestigious IFO Institut has crunched the numbers on the economic impact of no deal on 44 countries and predicted that Ireland would be hit three times harder than the UK by a no-deal Brexit, taking a massive 8.16% hit to their economy. Guido hears that Ireland has been the main EU27 country holding out against any reference to the UK’s basic Vienna Convention treaty rights over the backstop.

I stated this some months back and was laughed at.

It is not a situation for anyone to laugh over. Ireland's intransigence will create no winners, just losers.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/06/german-economists-no-deal-will-hit-ireland-three-times-harder-uk/


06 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM (#3980591)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

To my knowledge no one has ever suggested that Brexit would not have a detrimental effect on Ireland, in particular, and the EU in general.

IF perchance I am incorrect perhaps you could show us all the post(s) that said as much.

However I will not hold my breath as I know you will be unable to do so.

Idiot.

9 and counting.


06 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM (#3980619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

Every time I linger on the topic of Brexit I think of that classic Goon Show moment (on the radio):

Narrator:
"Cheer up, dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet. . .

It's finished. . .


NOW!"


07 Mar 19 - 04:51 PM (#3980817)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

And so it goes on.

Today Primark has informed 200 of it's staff they must move to Dublin or face redundancy.


Primark

Any good news about Brexit yet?


08 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM (#3980869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

From the Washington Post

Britain is one of the richest and most
advanced democracies in the world. It is
currently locked in a room, babbling away to
itself hysterically while threatening to blow
its own kneecaps off. This is what nationalist
populism does to a country.


Very astute :-(


08 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM (#3980884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Laters poll from Northern counties show 76% opposed to British policy, 67% opposed to DUP handling of Bexit and 67% wish to remain in Europe
Britain is now relying on the support of a party that does not have its own people's support
Jim Carroll


08 Mar 19 - 08:51 AM (#3980920)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

PM says if deal fails we may never leave EU

Sounds like the end game to me.

If she succeeds she will claim the credit for getting the best deal

If she fails she will claim others sabotaged it and it is their fault

Gawd, I hate politicians...


08 Mar 19 - 09:17 AM (#3980925)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And that is precisely what I predicted when she became PM.

FINGERS CROSSED!


09 Mar 19 - 09:10 AM (#3981111)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

From the Guardian:

Ms Leadsom said she was still hopeful of a breakthrough, but added it would depend on the EU "coming to the table and taking seriously the [UK's proposals]".


====

Still not understanding that the EU has no other obligation than to defend its own interests, and that it is the EU not the UK that decides what the EU's interests are, I see.


10 Mar 19 - 02:17 AM (#3981203)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

All part of the Deflection-Policy of the Tories, they do it on every issue - usually involving either inaccurate references to the last Labour government and the 2008 worldwide financial crash, or of the "Look over there - Corbyn anti-semitism/enemy of the people/friend of terrorists/allotment produce-show cheat" kind.

On this occasion they are trying to deflect the blame for their own incompetence and stupidity on to the EU's negotiating team. The BrexShiteer-Muppets might - or should that be will - fall for it, but those of us who aren't so stupid know where the blame truly lies, and it's not with the EU.


10 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM (#3981236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

A Friend just sent me this from one of teh Irish papers
Telling us what we already knew, of course
Jim
Science has dim view of Brexiteers’ brains
Jonathan Leake
Science Editor
It is a belief that some pro- Europeans already hold dear but a group of scientists now claim to have confirmed it: Brexit voters are less bright than remainers.
Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests before the referendum and asked how they intended to vote. Results suggest that leavers tended to be less numerate, more impulsive and prone to accepting the unsupported claims of authoritarian figures.
“Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking,” said the researchers, based at the University of Missouri.
Social scientists are increasingly interested in how personality affects voting. Authoritarian people, who favour conformity and obedience, make up about a third of the population. In America, they account for a higher proportion of voters for Donald Trump.
The research suggests that there may be similar divides in the UK. “Participants expressing an intent to vote to leave reported significantly higher levels of authoritarianism and conscientiousness... than those voting to remain,”
researchers said in a paper submitted to the Public Library of Science journal.
Nigel Farage, the MEP and former Ukip leader, said the research was “divisive and arrogant. Remain voters may have higher IQs but I’m not sure many could boil an egg or set up a business. They are well primed for the public sector and living off the taxpayer. The authoritarianism line is strange as leave voters want to be free while remain voters back an undemocratic authoritarian regime. What you can’t measure in IQ tests is patriotism which is a strong driver with leavers. Whether that’s rational or not is a separate question.”
Perhaps the key finding, however, is not about the brain power of leavers and remainers but the risk of using referendums to decide complex issues. Many voters, the scientists conclude, “lack the skills to critically evaluate information... raising a fundamental question as to whether direct democracy in the form of binary, winner- takes-all, referendums is an appropriate mechanism for deciding complicated political issues.”


10 Mar 19 - 06:40 AM (#3981242)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Switzerland’s direct democracy system has worked very well since 1848.

We have people claiming to be well educated scientists posting on this forum. It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct.


10 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM (#3981246)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The problem is not whether a direct democracy can work in a written constitution which describes how all the bits fit together - it can - or whether an evolved, indirect democracy like ours can work - it can - but how you get both approaches to fit together without any arbitration system to say which has priority when. And it is not good enough for either approach to declare 'we do'.

But in the light of crucial defining decisions being taken in the next few days, or being shirked, I would suggest a debate on the merits of direct or indirect democracy is perhaps not the main issue of importance.


10 Mar 19 - 07:23 AM (#3981253)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct."
Said the feller who insists on interminably infects this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger
Jim Carroll


10 Mar 19 - 07:30 AM (#3981255)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct."
Said the feller who insists on interminably infects this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger"


My perception is that 'the feller who insists on interminably infecting this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger' is the only one here gormless enough to fall for the masked criminal blogger's horse-shit. So, in that context, whatever gormless horse-shit he posts is completely irrelevant. Hence, most of the sane ones here ignore him.


10 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM (#3981263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Yes, well Iains, direct democracy might work here too if only we had Swiss people.


10 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM (#3981265)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

However the fact you all attack the messenger suggests his message is not only accurate but hits the places others cannot reach.


https://leveson.sayit.mysociety.org/hearing-8-february-2012/mr-paul-staines

A response to the Leveson enquiry:
Something that I think you might have overlooked is that I'm a citizen of a free republic, and since 1922 I don't have to pay attention to what a British judge orders my countrymen to do.


Mr Barr

And at times when you are breaking big news stories, what sort of visitor rates do you attract then?
Mr Paul Staines

I think at the peak we were getting 100,000 an hour. In an average month, we would have certainly hundreds of thousands, maybe up to a million readers, or a million different browsers come to our website.
Mr Barr

You operate also on Twitter. How many followers do you have?
Mr Paul Staines

60,000-odd.


Do you think a million browsers a day come for a diet of horse shit?

Your argument is vacuous.


10 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM (#3981266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

David W need to remember that this poster only ever posts ONLY THE USEFUL BITS after the awkward truths have been carefully removed
Jim


10 Mar 19 - 08:34 AM (#3981269)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Why on earth are you giving a link to an obscure blog that is linked to the following:
This entry was posted in Small States and tagged AfD, BNP, British National Party, Burka, burqa, citizenship, Front National, immigration, ius sanguinis, Nationale Aktion, Nationale Aktion gegen die Überfremdung von Volk und Heimat, naturalization, overforeignization, populism, right-wing, Schweizerische Volkspartei, SVP, Swiss People's Party, Switzerland, Trump, Überfremdung on February 5, 2017

All that is missing is a reference to Nazis and Jews.
Shameful behaviour.


10 Mar 19 - 09:06 AM (#3981274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Something that many of us commented on at the time was that the decision to leave the UK was founded on the voting of predominantly older people.

This has been borne out by a recent survey of the 2 million people eligible to vote now who were too young at the time. The survey shows that 74% of them would vote remain.

As Brexit will probably affect them far more, and at least far longer, than it will the aging population who voted for Brexit it would not seem unreasonable to have another vote.

Young voters

However I cannot see the Brexiteers being swayed by this.


10 Mar 19 - 09:23 AM (#3981277)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"As Brexit will probably affect them far more, and at least far longer, than it will the aging population who voted for Brexit it would not seem unreasonable to have another vote."

And one free from the baleful, deceitful, criminal influence of one Arron Banks, preferably.


10 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM (#3981279)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

A blog from a right wing site to show that Switzerland is not as democratic as it seems "shameful behaviour - now we really are blowing for tugs (after your "paado" accusation efforts sank without trace)
Would you rather dismiss it as "left wing shite" as you usually do ?
As I said before - only the useful bits get through your trawling
nets
Weeren't you the feller passing around the "free poor, misjudged Tommy Robinson" petitions ?
You're a not particularly funny (and certainly not very bright) joke
Jim Carroll


10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM (#3981305)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming.


10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM (#3981306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Backward man you are a tad behind the curve.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/304.html

In this claim for judicial review, the Applicants contend that the Respondent's decision to notify and the notification itself were unlawful because they were based upon the result of a referendum that was itself unlawful as a result of corrupt and illegal practices, notably offences of overspending committed by those involved in the campaign to leave the EU. Alternatively, it is said that the Respondent erred in law in not responding to the subsequent evidence of those practices as it emerged.

On 10 December 2018, following a full day's hearing, Ouseley J refused permission to proceed with the judicial review on the basis of both delay and want of merit, and ordered the Applicants to pay the Respondent's costs summarily assessed in the sum of £17,256.

The Applicants applied for permission to appeal that Order. That application came before this court on 21 February 2019 when, after hearing substantial argument, we indicated that we would refuse permission to appeal on all grounds and would give our reasons at a later date. In this judgment, I set out my reasons for that refusal.

with any luck it cost them loadsamoney!


10 Mar 19 - 12:30 PM (#3981308)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Arw you really threatening me on Guido's behalf ?
Bring it on
Thought you might have been one of his employees


10 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM (#3981329)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I wonder if either of our two Brexiteers have anything to say about the 2 million potential new voters if there were to be a second vote.

I also wonder what our two Brexiteers have to say about the numerous Insurance, Banking and Finance organisations programming some of their affairs to leave the UK.

I know I have asked this question many times, as yet I have not had a response.

....................???


10 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM (#3981336)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Of course there is good news about brexit, Raggy. Come March 29, or maybe April 1, there will be a return to cricket on the village green, hot summers and snowy winters. There will be lashings of ginger beer, girls in gingham dresses, boys will call us sir and Johnny Foreigner will know his place. There will be no need for froggy cheese, kraut sausage or eyetye plonk as warm beer, mash and spotted dick will, once again, rule the waves.

What could possibly go wrong?


10 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM (#3981341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

I quite like warm beer, mash and spotted Dick ..............

However I am half way through a bottle of Chateau Neuf du Pape !!


10 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM (#3981345)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Come March 29, or maybe April 1,
You have made the same slip up, Dave, that I did a while back and leapt from the 29th (30th in Brussels time) to the 1st April, omitting the 31st. But let's not draw attention to it - someone might notice...

Of course, the 1st April as all fool's day may have swayed us.


10 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM (#3981346)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Come March 29, or maybe April 1, there will be a return to cricket on the village green,"
Did you not hear about the plans to enclose all village greens in order to pay another bung to the DUP !!
Jim


10 Mar 19 - 03:34 PM (#3981347)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

We'll not need to pay bungs, Jim. Once we return to our rightful place in the world everyone will just do as we say. We never had to pay bungs before we joined the common market.


10 Mar 19 - 04:31 PM (#3981352)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

An observation.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming.


Eleven minutes later from the same poster:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

Backward man you are a tad behind the curve.


10 Mar 19 - 05:40 PM (#3981357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

No interaction at all, Steve. You know it makes sense :-)


10 Mar 19 - 07:46 PM (#3981375)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I wasn't interacting, Dave. I was making a purely objective, in this case eyebrow-raising, observation. Whoever it was who posted those two posts, I didnt interact, merely observe. It would be good to think that the mods also observe. But who knows.


10 Mar 19 - 07:59 PM (#3981379)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"No interaction at all, Steve. You know it makes sense :-)"
Spoilsport
Jim


10 Mar 19 - 09:24 PM (#3981385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

It would be good to think that the mods also observe.

Holmes to Watson: "You see, but you do not observe."


11 Mar 19 - 03:01 AM (#3981393)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

According to the Guardian today:

The prime minister pledged in parliament to put her deal to the Commons on Tuesday but she is being urged by senior Conservative MPs to pull the vote if she fails to secure significant concessions from Brussels.
Leading Tories have warned Downing Street it could face a three-figure defeat similar to the historic 230-vote loss in January if the government goes ahead.
They have advised her instead to replace the vote with a motion setting out the kind of Brexit deal that would be acceptable to Tory MPs to keep the party together and put pressure on Brussels.

======

You have to admit she has form in pulling votes. I have been dubious of the Labour idea that they will drop the Kyle amendment from Tuesday, and bring it in later, perhaps on Wednesday or Thursday. The risk of that approach is she could hold Tuesdays vote then pull the others. I wonder if these 'senior Tories' genuinely believe the EU will respond to such "pressure" or if is no more than a technique to reach the 29th so we drop out automatically.

I don't think she will pull Tuesday vote. I think it quite possible what she says immediately afterwards will show she will continue to push for her deal while doing her best to block any alternative.


11 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM (#3981404)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I didn't slip up btw, DMcG. March 29th is a Friday. Everyone knows that before those upstart Europeans started to dictate what their betters should do, weekends were sacrosanct and nothing got done. As March 30 and 31 will be spent watching football and going to church, April the first will be the first proper day of our glorious past re-invented. And very apt it is :-)


11 Mar 19 - 04:19 AM (#3981407)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


I didn't slip up btw, DMcG.


That's fine. I did, though!


11 Mar 19 - 04:31 AM (#3981410)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

:-D


11 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM (#3981415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Hunt on TV this morning, and the revolting Mark Francois (surprised he hasn't changed his name), all the other tory MPs, to them all thats important is keeping the tory party intact. Far more important than the welfare of the people of the country. Not one of them is making the case that the people will be better off out of the EU. They can't because they know it's not true. But to them we are simply collateral damage, sacrificed in the interests of the tory party. If they had any decency they would be working for a compromise, such as Corbyn's customs union proposal.


11 Mar 19 - 05:24 AM (#3981419)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Here is a fairly old clip of my MP, Royston Smith. In the first minute or so he lists why he voted to leave.

What is striking it that the reasons are all about him: not once does he say it is in the countries best interests. The closest he gets is saying he thinks that the country can stand on its own two feet. Sure it can, but that does not mean it will be as tall as it was!


11 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM (#3981422)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Brexiters fall into two camps, the extremely selfish such as those who have hedged against the UK economy, and the utterly deluded, who were taken in by the lies on the side of a bus.


11 Mar 19 - 06:00 AM (#3981425)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Leavers fall into two camps, the stupid and the dangerously stupid.


11 Mar 19 - 06:01 AM (#3981426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Or should that be remainers?


11 Mar 19 - 06:11 AM (#3981428)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

I think that there are some leavers who are not stupid or dangerously stupid, but just dangerous, because they see brexit as an opportunity for personal financial gain at the expense of the rest of us. Such as hedge fund managers shorting the British economy.


11 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM (#3981432)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Stanron, all the others Brexiteers have refused repeatedly to respond to any of my questions regarding if the UK will be as well off, if not better off, post Brexit.

Almost every report from every source to date has been negative. The Banking, Insurance and Finance Industries are setting up offices overseas, the car industry is in disarray, multiply other industries are moving at least some of their operations into the Eurozone and even arch Brexiteer Rees Mogg has opened on office of his Somerset Investment company in Dublin.

So tell me how is the UK going to benefit from Brexit.


11 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM (#3981439)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Well, one of them repeatedly says "we are leaving on 29th March" when asked. That is possible but hardly certain, so I wonder what replaces that non-answer.


11 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM (#3981445)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

I am waiting for May to
make a gaurantee that if EU 27 denies fredom of movement to a single UK national that this will be treated as a major diplomatic incident. If not then May, and everyone who voted for her party is a racist.


11 Mar 19 - 05:25 PM (#3981552)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

If the French suggestion works for Calais, why not for Ireland?

As any self-respecting Brexit pundit will be more than happy to remind us, smart borders featuring mythological things like remote customs declarations and automated number plate checking are simply “unicorns” which aren’t likely to be possible for hundreds, if not thousands of years. They certainly won’t be suitable for any post-Brexit border crossings…

Which is why French Customs have just unveiled a “smart border” – an “innovative technological solution” which will be implemented on 29 March 2019 “at all points of entry/exit to/from the Calais region and at border points from Channel-North Sea to maintain smooth circulation of your goods.”

From Guido of course

https://order-order.com/2019/03/11/france-unveils-technological-smart-border-solution/

and for the nonbelievers, some french unicorns below!

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a16171-the-smart-border


12 Mar 19 - 02:38 AM (#3981582)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

If the French suggestion works for Calais, why not for Ireland?

You mean apart from the fact a port is completely different in scale to a 499km border, that all the French system achieves is to separate the traffic into red and green channels where the red have to be checked, that building such infrastructure as the channels is expressly prohibited by the withdrawal agreement and that the police of Ireland have expressed serious security concerns about any attempt to have such infrastructure? Give me a minute and I will think of something.


12 Mar 19 - 09:47 AM (#3981645)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Good news about brexit. We dodge the biometric ID cards.



http://www.statewatch.org/news/2019/feb/eu-frontex-visas-ilos-id-cards.htm


12 Mar 19 - 09:49 AM (#3981646)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I know there's nothing even remotely amusing about all this, but I loved this one, from a Comments section under a Guardian article:

"By the way, if anyone is under the misapprehension that Trump is going to help Britain with a favorable trade deal after Brexit, they've got another thing coming. When the wolf sees a lamb straying from the herd, he's not going to channel his inner Border Collie. He sees dinner."


12 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM (#3981650)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

he's not going to channel his inner Border Collie. He sees dinner."

I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little.


12 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM (#3981652)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Another amusing exchange from the same Comments section:

"The backstop needs to be well oiled, greased, lathered with WD40 and shoved well and truly up ERG arses, that should shut them up for a while."

"Really? Do we have to pre-lube the thing?"


12 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM (#3981656)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

An observation worth repeating and further reinforcing.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

"Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming."

Eleven minutes later from the same poster:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

"Backward man you are a tad behind the curve."

And then:

"Not only besandled and besotted but also oblivious"

And just now:

"I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little."

By the way, folks, if you can read this thank a teacher.


12 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM (#3981658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Please don't feed the animals Steve - they'll only come back for more :->
Jim


12 Mar 19 - 10:59 AM (#3981661)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little."

And I think, silly boy, you completely misunderstood Steve's post. Not 'arf as clever as you try to pretend you are, are you?

Stick to quoting 'Semen' Staines - that's about your level.


12 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM (#3981681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Indeed he did. I know a few people in real life who you can't have a proper conversation with because they're not listening to you. Instead, they're thinking of the next "clever" thing to say. It's not very grown-up, is it?


12 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM (#3981683)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

> people in real life who you can't have a proper conversation with because they're not listening

Like the current PM. And I think the consequences are just about to rear up and bite her on the butt.


12 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM (#3981697)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Hopefully!


12 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM (#3981720)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, I see she has blown it again. Will no one rid us of this turbulent pest?


12 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM (#3981723)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

In answer to May's speech saying she would be holding the votes on Wednesday and Thursday, Corbyn said he would be bringing the previously rejected Labour version of Brexit back to the house. Even if the house were to accept it, which is very doubtful, the question arises whether the EU will be prepared to enter another long period of negotiation. As I have said before, I don't find red unicorns any more believable than blue ones. There are things in the Labour proposal that will be as objectionable to the EU as the ones from the Tories.

I think the probability is we will need more than this lets-talk-about-something-else approach to stop a no deal.


12 Mar 19 - 03:21 PM (#3981725)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

She's not bloody giving in. That's for sure.


12 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM (#3981727)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy

So, does this latest vote mean Remain? I am unclear.


12 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM (#3981728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So, does this latest vote mean Remain? I am unclear.

No, nor do the votes tomorrow or the day after mean remain. It is, perhaps, a step in that direction, but equally it could be a step towards the no-deal brink if Parliament fritters away the few days left on irrelevancies or agreeing things that the EU cannot.


12 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM (#3981729)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

EU needs to forget about the self-serving Tory party politics which were responsible for the referendum, and pull their fingers out and come up with a deal that protects all the rights of UK pro-Europeans.


12 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM (#3981731)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

And UK parliament must prioritise legislation that legally enforces car park attendants/local authorities to recognise blue badges issued across the EU in all UK car parks that recognise UK blue badges.


12 Mar 19 - 04:04 PM (#3981732)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

EU needs to ... pull their fingers out and come up with a deal that...

I am afraid not: the EU does not have to come up with anything. The UK has to come up with something that is at least good enough to convince the EU it merits an extension. I agree with you the proposed deal should protect those rights, but it is up to the UK to say that.


12 Mar 19 - 05:49 PM (#3981744)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Piling disgrace on disgrace, May is failing to whip her MPs tomorrow to oppose no-deal.

I use my mum's blue badge everywhere, SPB (only when she's with me, of course). I wasn't aware of the issue you mention. I think I'd better check...


12 Mar 19 - 08:29 PM (#3981762)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Oops, sorry, SPB, I misread your point about blue badges so my comment about my mum is irrelevant. However, when I looked into it a while back I thought I found that the blue badge scheme has a reciprocal agreement across the EU.


13 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM (#3981784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Nobody wants this Brexit - it's time to grow up, and ditch this miscarriage of democracy


Not much respect for the tabloids but this article tells it as it is.


13 Mar 19 - 11:10 AM (#3981803)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Nobody wants this Brexit

Perhaps he could explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then? or perhaps he uses the same abacus as Diane Abbot.


13 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM (#3981816)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

The antithesis to "Great minds think alike" is, of course, "Fools seldom differ".


13 Mar 19 - 11:48 AM (#3981818)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then

Easy. That was then, this is now.


Aw, shit - I responded to the fool. My bad.


13 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM (#3981822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


Nobody wants this Brexit

Perhaps he could explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then?


17.4 etc voted for A Brexit, But did they vote for THIS Brexit, which is what the phrase you are commenting on says? No one at all knows: neither you, nor I, nor any of the leave campaigners, nor Parliament. In fact, it is highly likely that even at the time they were voting with different understandings of Brexit.

In the faint hope of warding off Nigel, I read 'Nobody wants this Brexit' in the common, ordinary, everyday sense of the phrase. That is, I am sure out of the 17.4million there will be a few who did, but the numbers are dwarfed by the rest.


13 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM (#3981829)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"In the faint hope of warding off Nigel"

I'm going to a gig on Friday evening, just noticed the support act is some guy called Nigel Parsons...ve-e-ery interesting!!


13 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM (#3981830)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And I'll be meeting up with one of the Muskets- I'll give him everyone's best.


13 Mar 19 - 01:48 PM (#3981846)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

That was exactly as I read it DMcG. I

Send my regards to Ian, BWM. Not sure what to send to the other :-D


13 Mar 19 - 02:21 PM (#3981857)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Pretty sure it's a different NP Dave.
And I'll pass your regards on...


13 Mar 19 - 03:42 PM (#3981861)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I am pleased to see the Malthouse compromise has been rejected by even more than May's deal. Given the EU was clear about how insane we would be to vote for somwthing rej3cred so often in the negotiations, it is one bright spot in the hookah.

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.


13 Mar 19 - 03:43 PM (#3981862)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The hoo-hah. Ornate pipes not required.


13 Mar 19 - 04:32 PM (#3981868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I can just see the headlines in the Daily Heil.

Corbyn behind anti-semitic plot to keep us in Europe.

And the idiots will believe it.


13 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM (#3981876)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.

A total misunderstanding of what is at stake:
As things stand we crash out on the 29th of this month.Regardless of what Parliament may vote in the meantime, only a changer in the law can negate this. There is not sufficient time to frame the required legislation,debate it in both houses and obtain Royal Assent. That is the reality.
An extension beyond the date of the European elections means the UK quota of MEPs must be elected.(This could be quite entertaining as the seats have already been re-allocated.)
More significantly, an extension gives the remainiacs more time to plot and plan their treasonous betrayal of the democratic will of the people.


13 Mar 19 - 06:05 PM (#3981880)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So you think "what is at stake" entitles MPs to try to encourage the EU to thwart Parliament's will if it decides to ask for an extension?

I believe I understand what is at stake as well as you do, Iains.


14 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM (#3981931)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

A suggestion this morning that Bercow might use the ancient rule that a Motion may not be voted on more than once during a session to prevent May's agreement being debated and voted on for a third time.

Fingers crossed. And maybe then we will see the complete lunacy of BrexShit kicked out for good.


14 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM (#3981943)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

That is a really interesting possibility, Backwoodsman. It is being suggested that the justification for bringing it back is that Cox's advice is changed because of the Vienna Convention. Now, it is true that is not in his written advice. But it was raised in the debate and his advice on the matter sought and given. So the claim the advice has changed is on very shaky ground indeed. Also that clause of Vienna Convention concerns fundamental changes in the parties concerned. A change of Prime Minister is not such a fundamental change. A change of governing party is not such a fundamental change. A complete collapse of the finances of the UK would be, but presumably those seeking to invoke it do not think that is likely. So this a fig-leaf of an excuse, not a genuine one.

Now, if Teresa May agreed to change her red lines and adopted a more consensual approach, that would be an actual change to the deal, so it could be brought back without doubt.

Some ERG members have said they would vote for the deal on condition May resigns. That takes us into, as far as I know, other uncharted constitutional waters. There is a convention that no parliament can bind its successor, so it cannot pas a law directly restricting its successors actions. It is not clear if that applies to Prime Ministers. For example, if May agreed to adopt some of Labour's ideas, and that so-amended deal was passed with those changes to the parts of the agreement that are *not legally binding*, to what extend would a PM Boris be bound to follow them? I don't think anyone knows.


14 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM (#3981945)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

It amazes me how people are still falling this 'will of the people' bollocks. 17 million people voted to leave Europe. There are 66 Million in the UK. Less than 1/3 voted to leave. Of the remaining 2/3, 16 million voted to stay. So that leaves over a 1/3 of the 'people' who's will is entirely unknown. How can this be the will of the people?


14 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM (#3981946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

“Those who make peacful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.”
JFK


14 Mar 19 - 05:50 AM (#3981948)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Well we have had veiled threats of violence from Farage and others, and they don't impress or scare me. Our grandparents faced down Mosley's thugs, and our parents faced down Powell's, are our generation goint to be the once to cave in to threats of violence from brexit extremists?


14 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM (#3981949)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The extremists are those that refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the democratic vote.
This was by referendum
An overwhelming vote for article 50
A general election with both main parties having brexit as a major part of their manifesto.

Remainiacs are a bit like democrats. They just don't get it!


14 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM (#3981958)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

You know, Iains, it is posts like that which make people decide there is no value in engaging with you. I do so because it think it is valuable to know other peoples views, but there does come a point where the return on investment is too low to bother.

You say both parties campaigned for Brexit.

The Tories campaigned for a Brexit where having a customs partnership was ruled out.

Labour campaigned for a Brexit where a customs partnership was essential.

To suggest they are the same is on the level as claiming 'dead' and 'alive' are the same because they both contain an E and an A.

Add in the repeated dodging of the point I repeated in bold for your convenience and throw in some hint that violence might be acceptable and I find myself drawn to the group who don't respond at all.

As with Keith, it is your hands to decide if you want to raise things to discuss, or are only interested in scoring points in a competition where you are the sole entrant.


14 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM (#3981960)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?


14 Mar 19 - 07:42 AM (#3981962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Just put it up o the Irish tread but worth repeating here as Ireland is the main issue of Brexit
Michael Gove has announced that a Brexit crash-out will need to involve a re-establishment of Direct Rule from Westminster Britain's the interests of Britain and the Six Counties are to remain the same
This is tantamount to throwing way all the gains thet have been made since The Good Friday Agreement and will almost inevitably bring violent conflict that much nearer
Jim Carroll


14 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM (#3981963)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I find it hilarious that the resident wannabe 'tough-guy' who is making scarcely-veiled threats of violence on this thread, is defecating building-blocks on another thread over the prospect of a 19-year-old girl, who is an abused, brainwashed rape-victim, being allowed to return to the UK - her country of birth - from Syria.


14 Mar 19 - 07:56 AM (#3981964)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Not near as hilarious as I find your "contributions" on brexit.


14 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM (#3981974)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

You're going to allow this offensive clown to close this thread if you're not careful Baccy - which would suit the rightists here right down to the ground
Put yourself in their shoes; wouldn't you be embarrassed to see your Government disintegrating before your eyes and have to pretend all is well?
Jim


14 Mar 19 - 08:44 AM (#3981976)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

One of the amendments being debated is from Chris Bryant sayingthat the May's deal should not be brought back before Parliament. I assume the reasons will be those in Erskine May. I would be very surprised if that amendment were to pass, but if it did I think Bercow would find himself obliged to require a more significant change than the "change of advice" fig-leaf. Even if rejected, it may mean bringing MV3 becomes the final chance: MV4 could find itself ruled out.


14 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM (#3981981)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

The referendum was advisory parliament always had the power to over rule ,this was not explained to people , as a result of Cromwell, parliaments powers were increased.

I predict the next conservative leader will be Sajid Javid.
I am a supporter of Jermy Corbyn,but i think the next labour leader might be Sadiq Aman Khan ., if he remains in the labour party


14 Mar 19 - 09:27 AM (#3981983)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

You're going to allow this offensive clown to close this thread if you're not careful Baccy


I do not believe I was the one recently called a bastard. Whoever it was must have been pretty offensive. I believe anyone studying the contributions by the usual suspects will find reams of offensive comments especially directed at the recently departed Keith.

Here is how jimmy refutes an argument
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 05:32 AM
Piss off you pair of racist pricks

An extremely educated, well crafted response(from a 7th or 8th grader)

Nothing sensible to say so remainiacs resort to insults, bullying and bluster as usual shortly to bring death to yet another thread.g


14 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM (#3981985)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Don't respond
Don't fall for his nonsense
Don't even read his posts if at all possible

It is proven to work but some keep encouraging him. Just stop it please. It is beyond a joke.


14 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM (#3981998)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

So, having received no reply the first time (other than the usual abuse)m I'll ask again - why are the Brexshiteers, who constantly and vociferously proclaim their profound belief and faith in their perceived version of 'democracy', so fearful of granting the electorate their undeniable, actual democratic right to a re-vote in order to confirm their earlier opinion or, alternatively, demonstrate that they have changed their collective mind?


14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM (#3982000)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Rhetorical question I presume BWM :-)


14 Mar 19 - 10:39 AM (#3981994)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

The pub must have closed - let him sleep it off
Jim


14 Mar 19 - 10:46 AM (#3982002)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Precisely, Dave! Just waiting for more abuse. It's all he's got. At least I get a good laugh!


14 Mar 19 - 10:56 AM (#3982005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I seem to recollect the gnome being publicly rebuked for his abysmal behaviour. The pots twould appear to vastly outnumber the "alleged " kettle.
Your posts are all archived, even some you thought deleted!


14 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM (#3982009)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Knife crime in the UK is a serious issue. 17.4,000,000 people were stabbed in the back yesterday.

"I know people voted for Brexit for a range of reasons, but many of us did so to regain sovereignty - i.e. to take back control from an EU political elite who seem arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic. Can someone please help me understand why our own government would wish to inflame that sentiment and become the focus of it by thwarting Brexit through being arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic?!?! Populism (actually anti-establishment-ism) is on the rise all across the West, and politicians seem astonishingly blind to their role in causing it."


14 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM (#3981996)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

That's just another invitation for him to continue. Just don't encourage him. It really is very simple.


14 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM (#3982020)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I repeat....

"Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?"

Well....??


14 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM (#3982025)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

If this vote was democratic in the first place it would have been based on full information of what people were voting for
It was not democratic in any way, it was based on turning one group of people against the other - the worst kind of populism.
The very first result of this was an immediate rise in racist incidents
THat is now even been acknowledged by the extremist right who have realised the necessity to CLEAN UP THEIR IMAGE
Jim Carroll


14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM (#3982045)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Here's one for the remainiacs to chew on (hot off guidos press)

Sarah Wollaston’s amendment calling for a long extension to provide time for a second referendum has been crushed this evening by 334 votes to just 85


14 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM (#3982056)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So May will be asking for an extension. It may not be granted, of course, but if it is it will either be to 30 June or later.

Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.


14 Mar 19 - 02:19 PM (#3982057)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

So, how old is Britain anyway?

In America we have a birthdate for the United States. It's when we offically thumbed our nose at you guys. But who did you guys thumb your noses at? The Romans? The French? Actually it was kind of the other way around. The took Caratacus back home and paraded him through the streets in a Triumph. The French arrived (as Normans) and taught you a new language. Which you successfully absorbed in one of the great turnabout conquests of all time. (Good job on that, by the way!)

So, whence do y'all date from?


14 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM (#3982061)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Some reading for you - it's not straightforward...


14 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM (#3982069)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy

Fascinating!


14 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM (#3982080)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Even less straightforward!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouthshire_(historic)


14 Mar 19 - 03:53 PM (#3982084)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

Is May a goner after these votes? Who is going to grab the PM position next?


14 Mar 19 - 04:37 PM (#3982094)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I thought I would have a look at a betting site to see the options, knowing that 30+ names have been suggested.

People are putting money it seems on some odd choices for next Prime Minister. David Cameron, for instance. George Osborne. Chris Grayling (????), Simon Cowell, Tony Blair, Ann Widdecombe, Arron Banks ...


14 Mar 19 - 04:52 PM (#3982095)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Good news for April though. Going to see Stanley Accrington on the 1st to get a good laugh about Btexit and seeing Steeleye Span on the 2nd to forget about this nonsense altogether.

Who says it's all bad :-)


15 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM (#3982195)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

BBC live report about 9:55 On 15th May"

 Ms May's hopes of persuading Eurosceptics and the DUP were dealt a hammer blow after the so-called star chamber of Brexiteer lawyers rejected attorney general Geoffrey Cox's latest assessment.

Led by veteran Tory Sir Bill Cash, the group said his idea that the UK could use the Vienna Convention - the international agreement that lays down the rules about treaties - to unilaterally pull out of the backstop was "badly misconceived".

======

It will be even harder to claim something has changed now as justification for Bercow to allow MV3. He will, I an sure, but I think evwryone will try to avoid explaining on what grounds.


15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM (#3982197)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Latest news. Brexit delay could be the end of May.

:D tG


15 Mar 19 - 06:29 AM (#3982199)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I said '15 May' in my earlier post. Obviously I meant '15th March'


15 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM (#3982201)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Some of the right wing press is reporting that with the defeat of the amendment calling for a second referendum, this is no longer an option.

This is mindless balderdash. What Brexit (or indeed its revocation) is deciding is the long term relationship between the UK and the EU. A referendum can never BE that: no-one sensibly claimed it could. A second referendum is a mechanism to choose between alternative relationships. It is not, once again, a relationship in itself.

I do not support a second referendum for the same reasons I did not support the first: it is something Parliamentarians should decide. But if they cannot, votes not withstanding, SOME means of deciding is required and a referendum is one of the few choices available.

Also, that part of the press is tends to ignore that the groups arguing for a public vote requested this should not be voted on at this time, and that was clearly stated several times during the debate itself. That, along with some parliamentary rules about amendments led to Labour abstaining en mass.   It takes a deliberate obtuseness to claim this shows there is no support for the idea.


15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM (#3982202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)


15 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM (#3982205)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Actually, we could both be right :)

Or indeed both wrong, such is the clarity of the moment!


15 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM (#3982212)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

I think Bercow will have to allow MV3 - it's encoded in the motion that passed yesterday. This from the Guardian at lunchtime Thursday 14th, i.e. before the results were decided:

> Parliament will vote on a motion that sets next Wednesday as the deadline for MPs to pass a Brexit deal. If a deal is passed by then, the government will seek an extension of article 50 until 30 June. But if the deal is not passed by then, the government will need a longer extension, requiring the UK to take part in European elections.

The European Council is meeting on the 21st. So there won't even be time for a MV4. I think that's why Bercow was being so cagey in his wording.

Interesting times...


15 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM (#3982214)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d432e7a81b83c24fbadf2c94f9e9535a3dd1500c387028be3d06996de64ad150.jpg?w=600&h=261


15 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM (#3982220)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

This BBC report from about half an hour ago sheds a bit more light. Sort of. A little.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47579033


15 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM (#3982225)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.


15 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM (#3982226)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.

Hahaha- well observed, Bonnie.

But there is a long way to go to get to 1688...


15 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM (#3982228)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

We should dread reaching post 1415, as Agincourt may by then have been avenged...


15 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM (#3982292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

We've yet to reach 1984 - sobering thought
Jim


15 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM (#3982306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy

A feudal gesture?


15 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM (#3982309)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Once again, a Brexiteer blames Remainers

You may remember Tim Martin decided to go round his pubs giving speeches in favour of Brexit. It is *just* possible, is it not, that some remainers decided to drink elsewhere as a consequence? Or that people in general don't want to be lectured when they go out for an evening out?

Pubs in general are not doing well, but for those I have seen, Martin's baby is doing appreciably less well than the average.


16 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM (#3982490)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

i see nigel farage and chums have set off from sunderland on an epic march for brexit and freedom. are any mudcatters accompanying the nicotine-stained man frog? can anyone update us on their progress? How many pubs passed so far?


16 Mar 19 - 01:33 PM (#3982522)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I can't say about any mudcatters, but Nigel Farage has been pretty clear he has no intention of doing it. Photo-ops at the start, end, and perhaps a couple along the way, but the idea of dong the whole thing - no way!

I don't know, but my guess he has left them to it already.


16 Mar 19 - 06:21 PM (#3982562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

May should not bring her deal back to parliament for a third vote until she has pulled her finger out and caught up with ALL the legislative programme that has been on the back burner - including the care act green paper which is nearly 2 years late already. Until then we stay in the EU - NOT NEGOTIABLE.


17 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM (#3982610)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

what a state of confusion, it was never explained to people that the referendum was advisory that parliament had the last say., these people could noit organise a piss up in a brewery


17 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM (#3982611)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

“Much unhappiness has come into the world because of bewilderment and things left unsaid.”
? Fyodor Dostoevsky
“It's funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to.”
? J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye


17 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM (#3982626)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Funny to think that she will keep having votes on the same thing until she gets the "right" result. Precisely the sentiment expressed by fear-laden brexiteers when there's a suggestion of another referendum...


17 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM (#3982633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

I think this will have to be the last vote (which is probably why Bercow didn't make a ruling on it) because the European summit is on the 21st.

For weeks she's cried Wolf. Now there really IS a wolf. And a real bullet in the chamber of the gun she's been holding to the nation's head and spinning (in both senses of the word) round and round.


17 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM (#3982636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Well, Steve, as the Brexiteers insist she is a Remainer, I suppose that proves what they claim about remainers and repeat voting ....


17 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM (#3982652)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: skarpi

This is the BIGGEST MISTAKE FOR UK EVER , your bank loans are going to cost more , the food is going cost more , everything is going cost more , and the space between the poor and rich are going to get bigger , Iceland may not have EU ..but it´s hard living up here , everything cost so much ...and there is a saying in Iceland , which is : Þetta reddast ,it mean it will be ok some how ? ..but it does not ....if you want to go this there so many things that has to change before you do .

all the best and best of luck
Skarpi Iceland .


17 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM (#3982666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The default position is that we leave on the 29th, deal or no deal. Until the law is physically changed we leave on the 29th.


17 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM (#3982675)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

In the past, laws have gone through the entire process in less than 24 hours. Amending the date if it turns out to be required can be changed by a much simpler process than a new law.


17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM (#3982744)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit.
Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?


18 Mar 19 - 02:46 AM (#3982766)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Well, the March edition of The New Yorker has a pretty unequivocal view of the idiocy of BrexShit and its supporters, who seem to have completely lost contact with reality and crossed into a parallel universe.


18 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM (#3982774)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit "
Grasping at straws tantamount to "We've dropped you in the klarts but it's too late to do anything about it"
The people who are fighting for this are nutters like
LORD SNOOTY who, with one hand wags the flag and with the other, makes sure his own investments are safe by shifting them out of Britain
It's great to see Dyson and AND HIS FELLOW BREXITEERS doing similar - rats and sinking ship springs to mind.
THIS FELLER ACTUALLY MADE IT A PIECE OF ADVICE
UP TO DATE PICTURE HERE
What a fine mess you and yours've got Britain into Nigel
Jim Carroll


18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM (#3982784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?

Yes, since you ask. Remember that the Commons have already voted to change the date. That if the date is not changed we get a no deal which the House has also already voted against. That the change has been promised by the Government as part of the debates. That the process is via a statuary instrument, which is not necessarily a new law:

====
Mr Grieve
Just to remind the Secretary of State: there was a second part to the question, which is equally critical. It is that the Government will have to bring a statutory instrument to the House to alter the departure ?date set out in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. In those circumstances, I assume that the Government are undertaking to do exactly that.

Michael Gove
The Prime Minister and others have said that previously, and I am happy to place on the record once again at this Dispatch Box exactly that commitment.
====

Of course, the ERG will do its damnedest to disrupt the will of Parliament as expressed in its earlier votes. I would expect nothing less of them. And the Government's inability to organise anything is a significant risk. But given that it is not rare to get such things through in less than 24hours, certainly it can be done, assuming the EU have agreed an extension date.


18 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM (#3982801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

There is another little subtlety that is easy to overlook. What was agreed last week was that May's deal was this:

===

(2) agrees that, if the House has passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then the Government will seek to agree with the European Union a one-off extension of the period specified in Article 50(3) for a period ending on 30 June 2019 for the purpose of passing the necessary EU exit legislation; and


(3) notes that, if the House has not passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then it is highly likely that the European Council at its meeting the following day would require a clear purpose for any extension, not least to determine its length, and that any extension beyond 30 June 2019 would require the United Kingdom to hold European Parliament elections in May 2019.

===

What is easily missed is that clause (3) applies if the negotiated agreement has not even been put to MV3. Couple this with Hammond's statement:
=======

"We will only bring the deal back if we are confident that enough of our colleagues, and the DUP, are prepared to support it, so that we can get it through parliament. We’re not going to keep presenting it if we haven’t moved the dial," said the chancellor, Philip Hammond.

=======

and the likelihood of asking the EU for a long extension increases significantly.


18 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM (#3982866)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Whatever they has=ve done in the past they have backed a destructive policy up to the point where they realised who destructive of their own interests and have then done a runner, leaving the country the profess to acting in tehe interests of, up shit's Creel big-time
Since you've resorted to personal insulting again, you are, and always have been a rich man's arse-licker
Jim Carroll


18 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM (#3982872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

These patriots make me howl
They say they love Britain but the thought that British workers might actually have a say in their own lives makes 'em break out in a cold sweat and reach for the shotgun
They claim it is "Anglophobic" to criticise British policy, yet have no problem denigrating elected politics - even at a racist and sexist level, if their politics don't suit
If poor peoplke are in trounble (as in the Grenfel Tower catastrophe) ordinary British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property
Their interest lies in defending the right wing establishment and British big business and the possessions of the wealthy, the British people can go stuff themselves as far as they are concerned - establishment lackeys - the ***** lot of 'em
Jim Carroll


18 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM (#3982874)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad

Brexit bar


18 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM (#3982877)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

You are still encouraging him, Jim.


18 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM (#3982878)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property.

I think the stupidity of that argument has been robustly refuted innumerable times but you still insist on raising it every 5 minutes.
That says a lot about the person constantly raising the issue.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission

Article 1 of the First Protocol: Protection of property.
Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions.


18 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM (#3982881)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Bercow refuses MV3 without substantial change

I admit this surprises me; I thought he would find a way to let it through. So I am sure we will hear a lot of sound and fury, while May's team is probably relieved as it looked as if they were going to pull it themselves.


18 Mar 19 - 12:28 PM (#3982882)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Ya beat me to it, DMcG. Here's the Beeb's report:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47614074

I must admit I'm surprised too. Guess the DUP aren't going to get their little moment in the spotlight after all.


18 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM (#3982885)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Mr Cromwell had the rights of it in his speech to Parliament!

20 April 1653, London, England

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place,

which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.

Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.

Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?

Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.

I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.

Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!


18 Mar 19 - 12:46 PM (#3982889)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"You are still encouraging him, Jim."
Nah - I'm exposing himn for the eejit he is How does he react to his being exposed - he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time
This really is fun
Now we have the words of a 17th century religious zealot - gets better and better
Think I'll leave it there - he's done what I wanted tyo do far better than I ever could
State dick-suckers, the lot of them
Jim


18 Mar 19 - 01:04 PM (#3982892)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

From the BBC's Assistant Political Editor. Says it all.

Speaker's decision is:
- Good for Brexiteers cos it makes No Deal more likely.
- Good for Remainers cos it makes long delay more likely.
The only big loser is... the PM.


Anybody fancy a Kit-Kat?


18 Mar 19 - 01:13 PM (#3982895)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time

Actually it is the EU protecting people's rights. I carefully explained this to you above. ............... Oh Dear !!


18 Mar 19 - 02:14 PM (#3982905)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Constitutional crisis
Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times
Wonder if any brewery is looking for anybody to organise piss-ups - don't look here
Jim Carroll


18 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM (#3982917)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Constitutional crisis
Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times


Hardly a crisis! Bercow had wide support from both sides of the house and acted within clearly stated precedents from Erskine May that date back to the 1600's.


18 Mar 19 - 06:24 PM (#3982982)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I'm getting a bit sick of Laura bloody Kuenssberg's obvious bias. She insinuated strongly on the Beeb news that Bercow has "gone beyond his remit," leaning on her possibly unjustified assertion that that is a widespread view in the Commons (has she done a poll?), when he manifestly has done no such thing. I bet the Mail's headline writers will have a field day tomorrow, and, while they won't bother, they could claim to have her onside. She sure is a worthy successor to the right-wing Nick Robinson. And I can hardly wait for Andrew Neil on Thursday night...


18 Mar 19 - 06:57 PM (#3982983)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

John Bercow has clearly made the only possible ruling that is allowed. He'll never get his peerage from a Tory government now, but then maybe there won’t be one around for long.

One suggested way round would be to prorogue the session, and then have a new one, and run the old deal through again. Apparently the Queen would need to approve it, but that would mean interfering in the political process - and the same would be said if she refused. Since the last time Westminster was prorogued in the middle of a session was in 1628, by Charle. Since the ultimate outcome a few years later it had him getting his head chopped off, she might perhaps be a tad disinclined to risk it.

Perhaps the next antiquated procedure they'll try reviving would be the Act of Attainder, where a person could be executed without any need for a trial, last used in 1728. I suspect they may never have got around to covering that when the death penalty was scrapped, in which case that death penalty might still apply.


18 Mar 19 - 07:40 PM (#3982990)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

She could try to put a motion which sets aside the convention, but I'm pretty sure she will never get a majority for that. There's a slight danger that the EU's forbearance will run out and that they'll tell her to sod off later this week. I doubt it and I think they'll give her their long extension. If you take my meaning. Hope springs eternal.


18 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM (#3982992)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Hooray! I've found a way to stop my ipad from "correcting" me like that. From now on any mistakes online will be my mistakes, I hope.


Previous "oops" fixed by a mudelf and correction deleted, so this post may seem non sequitur. But it's cute so it's staying. *---mudelf


18 Mar 19 - 08:12 PM (#3982997)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Re ipad: Quick, tell me how you disable that feature. Drives me mad, that does. I spend more time deleting stuff than writing. (Not always a bad idea, though...)


19 Mar 19 - 03:47 AM (#3983026)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

There's a slight danger that the EU's forbearance will run out and that they'll tell her to sod off later this week

It may not be as slight as all that, thought I don't think it probable. The words 'traitor' and 'traitorous' have been widely abused and thrown at the slightest provocation, so I am hesitant about using them at all. But since a near text book example would be to encourage a foreign power to act against your government's stated wishes, I can't think of a more appropriate term for Iain Duncan Smith's and Owen Patterson's reported attempts to persuade Hungary and other countries to veto any request from the UK for an extension.

I see two routes to a no-deal as live at the moment. The more likely one is that the EU does not agree to an extension, most likely because of a veto. Should that happen, Bercow will not be able to allow a vote on the deal unless a substantial change is made, under his own ruling. So some amendment will be made to the deal - perhaps by making explicit mechanisms for the rest of Parliament to have a role in the future negotiations. Should Bercow not agree this is sufficient, or should that fail, we could be into no-deal.

The less likely one is that the EU agrees to an extension, but attaches conditions of such severity that Parliament does not accept the extension. As this would require people who votes against no-deal to now prefer it to the conditions, they would have to be very extreme.

(A third path opens if an extension permits a complete restart of the negotiations, but I do not think that is something the EU would consider.)


19 Mar 19 - 08:35 AM (#3983089)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

Our cat Brexit yells to go out but when we open the door he just sits there undecided.


19 Mar 19 - 08:54 AM (#3983095)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

The old ones are the best...


19 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM (#3983098)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

It's changed now, but this morning the BBC news page, in the second row under the main headline, wrote:
PM: I Will Not Speak His Name
just above a pictures of May & Bercow. Wow, I thought, she's losing it.

Then I noticed that they meant the New Zealand PM in the main story, referring to the multi-murderer. (Quite right too, deprive him of the PR.) But it gave me a wintry sort of laugh. I take my humour where I can find it these days...


19 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM (#3983101)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

There are signs the EU is softening and may let you guys kick the can down the road despite May saying "delay is not a solution".


19 Mar 19 - 12:46 PM (#3983131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

For an institution whose lineage can be traced back 804 years to Magna Carta, Parliament’s descent from consulting the people to dismissing their response has taken less than four years. It’s worth recalling some of the major stages in its decline.

"In June 2015, Parliament voted by a majority of 544 votes to 53 to hold the EU Referendum, rightly recognising that such an important constitutional question could be decided only by the electorate. On best estimates, in June 2016 Britain voted to leave the European Union by 406 parliamentary constituencies to 242. It voted to leave the European Union by 263 voting areas to 119, and by 9 regions to 3.

Conservative-held constituencies in 2016 voted to leave by 247 to 80. Labour-held constituencies in 2016 voted to leave by 148 to 84. In contrast, among 2016 MPs, Remain was the preferred option by 486 to 160.

In February 2017, MPs voted by 498 votes to 114 to trigger Article 50. At the 2017 General Election, approximately 85 per cent of votes were cast for parties pledging in their manifestos fully to implement the Referendum result."

If Brexit is thwarted so is democracy.


19 Mar 19 - 12:54 PM (#3983133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Beautiful photograph of a gawking crypto-fascist, Nigel Farage posing in front of the British flag, above the phrase used constantly by the British Empire regarding countries they ruled:
IS BRITAIN READY FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT
Don'cha love it !!
Jim Carroll


19 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM (#3983140)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Democracy in this country is predicated on the electorate being able to change its mind every few years. The roots of totalitarianism lie in the fear of the electorate changing its mind away from what the people in power prefer. What has become blantantly obvious is that the only deal on the table that is even remotely in the interests of the people in this country is the deal we currently enjoy with the EU as full and influential members. Not perfect, far from it, but there's simply no competition. No one on this forum, despite repeated requests, has been able to tell us what is going to be any good for this country about brexit. Which reminds me of another tenet of democracy, that we entrust the people we elect to act in our best interests. Theresa May has had to be repeatedly reined in since the referendum over her attempts to subvert parliamentary democracy. Targeting the people who complain about the extremely flawed and undemocratic referendum is a classic example of disingenuously choosing the wrong target.


19 Mar 19 - 02:09 PM (#3983148)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Nonsense!   Just imagine the lefty squeals were the boot on the other foot.


19 Mar 19 - 02:11 PM (#3983149)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is astonishing and simultaneously not in the least out of character to hear the DUP still saying the EU needs to change the deal and some Brexiteers claiming some people saying they might vote differently should be enough to satisfy Bercow's objections. Deliberately blinding yourself to reality is never a good stance.

Still, no doubt this all the EU's fault.


19 Mar 19 - 02:26 PM (#3983159)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Great to see a JACKBOOT FAVOURER talking about something being on the other foot - innit ?
Jim Carroll


19 Mar 19 - 06:59 PM (#3983211)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Watching newsnight - HMRC still haven't put measures in place to exempt UK businesses from changes in customs requirements if UK leaves EU, except for a small handful of businesses. If I was asked to place a bet on who would come of worse in a confrontation between a 42 ton truck and a customs jobsworth, I know where the smart money would be.


19 Mar 19 - 08:56 PM (#3983233)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

The losing side in any referendum, especially if the result was close, can be relied on to callfor a fresh vote soon enough. That would without doubt have happened if it had gone the other way in 2016. (Nigel Farage even promised on the night the result was declared.). The winner could be relied on to assert that a fresh vote once "the people had spoken" as an attack on democracy. There is no diubt that those favouring remain would have done that too.

But in both cases the actual reason for that wouldn't be anything so high-principled, it's simply a fear that another vote would come up with a different result.

I think that allowing a fresh note is the only democratic way to act. People have a right to change their mind - as time passes people who were too young to vote grow old enough. And of course circumstances mean that the question that needs to be asked changes.

Where there is a significant delay in carrying out the result of a referendum so that the number of fresh voters is greater than the margin of victory, and there is a significant demand for a new vote, it seems to me clear that a comittment to democracy should mean having such a vote.

As for "democracy" could anyone suggest that Norway, Denmark and Ireland are traitors to democracy because in analogous circumstances they had another vote? (In Norway the vote was to confirm the first vote to leave, in Denmark and Norway the outcome was to reverse it.) And tha5 in denying people any


19 Mar 19 - 09:16 PM (#3983234)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

The winners, whoever they were, can always be relied on to say that giving a chance to change their minds was antidemocratic. The truth isn't anything so high principled. It's simply that they fear people might vote the other way. Or that people who'd been to young might vote to change the result. (The number of new young voters is now far larger than the narrow margin of victory in 2016 - and the evidence is tgey are overwhelming for remaining, since they are probably the ones who stand to lose most in any Brexit.)

Norway, Denmark and Ireland have all had a second vote in analogous circumstances. In Norway this confirmed the decision not to join the EU, in Denmark and Ireland it reversed the earlier one. (In the Republic of Ireland today there is currently something like 84% support for EU membership - and of course in 2016 in Northern Ireland most votes were for remaining in the EU.) So are these countries traitors to democratic principles, while the hilariouslt shambolic UK government is a brave upholder of such principles?


20 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM (#3983262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

and of course in 2016 in Northern Ireland most votes were for remaining in the EU.)
To be precise a majority of merely 5.8%. A very small "most" I would say.

shambolic UK government


I would say a treacherous Parliament would be more accurate. The last election was fought on a leave ticket by both major parties. If MPs place their security of tenure above their morality and stand as liars
then what kind of democracy is that?


20 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM (#3983267)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The BBC is reporting that May is only going to ask for a short delay, which is what the Brexiteers in the cabinet wanted. With the exception of a general election, I think this rules out any form of public involvement - there is simply not time to agree the referendum question and hold a vote in three months. Equally the Kyle amendment where May's deal is put to a public confirmation hits a severe time barrier, which gets worse with every day's delay.   It seems to me that the final decision (or final indecision) will now be taken in Parliament without involving the public.


20 Mar 19 - 04:36 AM (#3983274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"5.8%. A very small "most" I would say."
In the referendum, 52 percent voted to leave the EU, with 48 percent voting to remain.
Yes indeed
Nice to see someone who accuses critics of the British Government of being "Anglophobes" using terms like "a treacherous Parliament"
Jim Carroll


20 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM (#3983300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Iains You have gone too far. I was trying to point out that Jim personally seems to have benefited from his life in the UK, as, no doubt, did his father. And that if they continue to send bombs to the UK it may be friends or even relatives of Jim himself who get maimed or murdered.

Iain's posts are being deleted from the bottom (so far) of this thread, so this post should probably also go away, but since Iain has been such a horse's ass there should probably be an occasional reminder to him and others that hateful posts aren't acceptable here. ---ticked-off mudelf


20 Mar 19 - 07:09 AM (#3983307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The "majority for remain over leave" in Northern Ireland was 11.56% if you do it by subtracting the percentage of leave votes (44.22%) from remain votes (55.78%).The excess of remain votes over leave votes was 26.1% of leave votes, another way of looking at it. To be even more honest, 440,707 voted remain and 349,442 voted leave, a difference of 91,265, which looks quite impressive considering that only 349,442 voted leave. "A majority of 5.8%" is the most dishonest way of putting it. What is actually meant by that 5.8% is that remain achieved 5.8% (5.78% to be precise) over the 50% passmark. We shouldn't be surprised, I suppose, that rabid brexiteers would select the means of expression that looks most like remain only just made it. Still, I've given you the various ways of putting it. Take your pick. Or your nitpick. You decide.

Interestingly, Catholic's overwhelmingly voted remain (85%) whereas only 40% of Protestants voted remain.

What is intriguing is how these two explanations of voting – the ethnonational and the “left behind” theses – interact. It emerges that Catholics are quite homogenous in their pro-Remain disposition. There was little variation between how working class, less well-educated Catholics voted compared to middle class, better-educated Catholics...

... Higher-skilled and educated Protestants were much more likely than lower-skilled, lower-educated Protestants to vote Remain. There is almost no difference between how Catholics who went to grammar school and those who didn’t voted. But Protestants who didn’t go to grammar school were much more likely to vote Leave than those who did.
[source: theconversation.com]

The same source indicates that anti-immigrationists in Northern Ireland were overwhelmingly more likely to vote leave (ironic or what) as were people who "oppose homosexuality" (not quite sure how that was defined). Good to know who your friends are, brexiteers.


20 Mar 19 - 07:35 AM (#3983315)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"In the British democracy a simple majority wins"
And the majority who voted against Brexit in NI exceeds that of those who voted to leave in Britain - you use one and ignore the other
You depict your leaders as "traitoers" yet describe others who say far less about them as Anglophiles
You really aren't the brightest Iron Cross on the uniform, are you
"And that if they continue to send bombs to the UK it may be friends or even relatives of Jim himself who get maimed or murdered.
You really are every bit as bad as your chosen bedfellow, aren't you?
Are you really never going to respond to anything that has been said
Jim


20 Mar 19 - 08:44 AM (#3983335)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Meanwhile, back on the topic of the thread, and without needing to resort to Brexshitters' standard tactics of insult and abuse of other posters on here, an accurate synopsis of the utter shit-pool our insane, incompetent PM and her bunch of clueless acolytes have got us into.


20 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM (#3983354)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

May's 'short delay' really has the bastards chasing their own tails, wonder if Lord Snooty and Boris teh Brainless will demand to be present at the beheading ?
Jim


20 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM (#3983357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

A little over an hour ago, BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg tweeted:

Implication of what PM saying very forcefully is that she might resign if Parliament or the EU forces delay beyond end of June.

It seems too much to hope for. But Kuenssberg is there on the scene, better politically-informed than those of us out here in internetopia. What do the rest of you make of her comment?


20 Mar 19 - 10:51 AM (#3983369)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

NOT JUST A TWEET
Jim


20 Mar 19 - 12:06 PM (#3983393)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

I'm not sure whether it constitutes INJURY or INSULT, but there is an opinion piece in the Telegraph this morning by none other than the eponymous son of the current United States place holder, apparently arguing that the father gave PM May really good advice when he visited last year, and she did not take it. Since I am not a paying subscriber of the Telegraph I cannot tell of 'Junior' cared to explicitly restate the sage wisdom of The Donald.


20 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM (#3983403)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So "Paddy Power" has had to stop betting on a general election as a result of a huge number of bets based on a rumoured statement from May tonight.


Anything is possible, but I don't see an election being called tonight. If she speaks at all it will be to reiterate her deal is the only one on offer.


20 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM (#3983450)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Guardian reports:
=======

Reactions of shock to Jeremy Corbyn’s refusal to partcipate in a meeting with other party leaders the PM invited to earlier are starting to populate Twitter.
This from the Daily Mail’s Claire Ellicott:
Hearing @jeremycorbyn left meeting with Theresa May and opposition leaders because he refused to sit down with @ChukaUmunna because he 'wasn't proper party leader'

Several others are reporting this, including Vince Cable.


======

I am also shocked. Corbyn is human, like the rest of us. But such pettiness at this crucial time is well below the standards I expect of a party leader. All else aside, to make one of the key stories of today that the Labour Leader is behaving like a petulant toddler is as damaging to future election prospects as any opponent could hope.


20 Mar 19 - 04:48 PM (#3983461)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Jeremy Corbyn reportedly walked out on a crucial Brexit briefing with party leaders because former Labour MP Chuka Umunna was invited. The Labour Leader is thought to have refused to sit down with the Independent Group spokesman as 'he's not a real party leader'. The move has been criticised online, with Countdown presenter Rachel Riley writing on Twitter (inset): 'Corbyn on Hamas (the terrorists): I wanted Hamas to be part of the debate. Corbyn on Chuka Umunna (the anti-racism ex-Labour MP): Tell him I’m not talking to him. OK, got it.'

He is even more of a clown than treason May!

Could find the Independant group is bigger than Labour in the not too distant future.


20 Mar 19 - 07:06 PM (#3983479)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

It was supposed to be a meeting involving May and opposition party leaders. Umunna is neither a leader nor a member of a political party. Jeremy was perfectly correct in walking out. Umunna is a charlatan and an opportunist who has betrayed his constituents by turning the back on the party that paid good money and spent lots of resources to get him elected. He is utterly undemocratic. I'd have walked out of that room a damn sight faster than Jeremy did, and, I must say, I'm amazed at your response, DMcG.


20 Mar 19 - 07:19 PM (#3983482)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Don't you think come the next election, Steve, that the opponents will make a great deal of capital out of that action? Sure, the meeting was presented as one of leaders, but what was the downside of Corbyn staying? He could easily have issued a statement aftwrwards saying TIG is not a party, and so should not have been present but in the national interests it was more important to seize any chance of getting May to listen to everyone's views. Instead it looks as if he has put a personal animosity with the TIG as more important than the country's future. Bad politics and tactical play, especially as everyone expected the meeting to be the usual of May repeating herself and ignoring everyone. The statement by the Lib Dema, Greens etc immediately after the meeting looked very much as if it could have been 90% prepared beforehand, with just scope for a few tweaks if needed.


20 Mar 19 - 08:24 PM (#3983488)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

No, I don't think that. These machinations will be rapidly lost in the morass of insanity engulfing this issue. The last thing that people will be recalling, in a week's time, will be Jezza walking out of a meeting with an out-of-control prime minister who had invited an unqualified charlatan. Principle does still mean something, tha knows...


21 Mar 19 - 03:20 AM (#3983502)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Sorry Steve, Corbyn's behaviour there was childish. He should be anyone who is prepared to work with him to prevent the catastrophe towards which May is leading us. That includes TIG, and if they would take part, that should include Sinn Fein. Who might be persuaded to take their seats in this extreme situation.


21 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM (#3983503)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

I agree with David and DMcG. Corbyn behaved like a petulant child, and his unstatesmanlike display will be included in the armouries of his opponents - along with Antisemite/Enemy of The People/ Friend of Terrorists/yadda yadda - to be dragged out to beat him, and the Labour Party, with as and when it suits them.

However, a more important issue that everyone should be beating The Praying Mantis with is her bone-headed, arrogant refusal to involve anyone from the other parties in the BrexShit process until this late stage. Why she didn't make the biggest issue since the end of WW2 a cross-party matter, and set up a cross-party group to handle the process is, to say the very least, baffling. Clearly, she put her opportunity for personal glory ahead of the good of the nation. Shame she made a total f**k-up of the whole thing.


21 Mar 19 - 05:09 AM (#3983519)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

I agree it was a mistake on Corbyn's part. Not that there was much point in attending, it seems clear that May intended to try to get people to back her 'deal', which Corbyn doesn't want to do.


21 Mar 19 - 05:13 AM (#3983522)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The majority voted Leave

Is this a folk song?


21 Mar 19 - 08:08 AM (#3983565)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

I am disgusted by May's condescending and patronising behaviour. How dare she presume what I want. She could not form a majority government and she only stays in power by virtue of support from the DUP. The referendum was not a mandate to dictate the terms on which we would leave. The fallback position can only be leaving EU but remaining in EEA until a further referendum says otherwise. There is no mandate to discontinue freedom of movement - that is purly a presumptive statement that May made. There is no mandate to leave the single market or customs unions, so there is no lawful basis for UK or EU to withdraw the benefit of these from any businesses or consumers who want thesew to continue.

EU27 customs and border officials MUST continue to allow use of EU customs and passport channels unhindered for everyone who have not consented to this right being withdrawn, otherwise they are obeying the orders of thier UKIP/NEO-fascist overlords.

There is no reason why EU cannot agree an emergency treaty to allow 'split' arrangments, whereby those of us who do not consent to leave retain 100% of the benefits of EU membership, and everyone else has no rights whatsover. I would be happy to pay my £20 per year contribution on top of my tax liabilities, for which I would also expect to right of representation in the European Parliament and European Council. I would also expect the EU to enforce all European Law that has an impact on the rights of thise who do not consent to leave, if necessary applying harsh sanctions against those who do consent. I would, finally, expect EU to compensate UK citizens for non-compliance by the UK government, recovering the costs through the aforementioned sanctions.

it is all a perfecr solution. Leavers get everything they want for themselves - pay for it - without ****ing up the lives of the rest of us.


21 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM (#3983566)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Unbelievably reckless language from The Praying Mantis last night, trying to lay the blame for her own abject failure on to MPs and Parliament. In these highly-emotionally-charged times, she spoke in a way that is likely to stir up a great deal of antipathy towards MPs of every stripe, even to the point of endangering their lives.

She is a disgrace, the author of her own misfortune, and not fit to serve this country in any position, let alone PM.


21 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM (#3983570)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

I think we are going to have a hard Brexit with no agreement.

Parliament seems effectively powerless to do anything except agree Theresa May's deal.


21 Mar 19 - 08:48 AM (#3983571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And, if that happens, she will have succeeded in achieving precisely what her tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, tax-avoiding masters have instructed her to achieve.

'Job Done' as far as she's concerned.


21 Mar 19 - 08:56 AM (#3983573)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

There an online petition on the Parliament site to revoke Article 50, for anyone who wishes to sign. Be warned, it keeps crashing from traffic overload, so it might take a bit of persistence.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

You may see an apology-sorry-we're-fixing-it page. And if you get "Bad Gateway" it means they're really overloaded. I've had both, but my vote finally got through.

Keep trying. Stay or leave, we have got do everything in our power to avoid a no-deal crashout.


21 Mar 19 - 09:48 AM (#3983583)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

A refresing bit of sanity reported in today's Guardian:


The UK government’s petitions website crashed on Thursday morning as thousands of people attempted to sign a plea for article 50 to be revoked.

The petition began gaining signatures on Wednesday evening after Theresa May criticised MPs for not approving her Brexit deal. It had received almost 600,000 signatures and was growing at a rate of 1,500 a minute before the site crashed.

The petition calls on the government to revoke article 50 and keep Britain in the EU, continuing: “The government repeatedly claims exiting the EU is the will of the people. We need to put a stop to this claim by proving the strength of public support now for remaining in the EU. A people’s vote may not happen, so vote now.”


Surely, revocation would be a simple way out of your mess, but as a Yank, what do I know?


21 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM (#3983586)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

as a Yank, what do I know?

As much as anyone on this side of the pond, that's for sure!


21 Mar 19 - 10:16 AM (#3983600)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

A million signatures on the 'Revoke A50' petition a few minutes ago.

Fingers crossed that Parliament comes to its senses, does the right thing and revokes A50, and saves the large majority who didn't express a desire to leave the E.U. from the stupidity of the minority who did.


21 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM (#3983606)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

A million signatures on the 'Revoke A50' petition a few minutes ago.
Around 900,000 of which have been since May's speech. I could see it passing 2 million before the weekend is out.

Of course, it is very likely to be ignored, even if 17 million sign it ...


21 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM (#3983624)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

The TUC and CBI now sending a joint communication to The Praying Mantis, expressing their dismay at the disaster she has turned BrexShit into, and imploring her to change tack.

Surely now, even the most oafish, flag-waving, Union-Jack-Underpants-wearing, 'Take Are Cuntry Back" Brexshitter can now see what those of us who weren't brainwashed by Anti-EU BrexShit propaganda have known from Day-One, that BrexShit is a complete, unmitigated disaster in the making?

The time to abandon BrexShit is here.


21 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM (#3983629)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

As much as I am against leaving the EU I must say I would have preferred the government just to have laid out their leaving terms to the EU and then leave to the interminable nonsense we are now going through. I thought Cameron the pig sticker was bad. May the mantis is even worse.


21 Mar 19 - 12:09 PM (#3983639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Tic Toc, Tic Toc !


21 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM (#3983644)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

K K K K appear to be missing so I thought I'd add them


21 Mar 19 - 12:33 PM (#3983648)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Got my confirmation email 1,119,676...... and counting.

.


21 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM (#3983664)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL8TJsM86x0&list=RDjiUFPjulTW8&index=3


21 Mar 19 - 02:24 PM (#3983677)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

A method of stopping a no-deal is if a suitable amendment is made to MV3. One sure way of stopping that approach is to put in a series of different amendments where the 'arcane methods' of Parliament mean that, in many cases, if an earlier amendment is passed, there is no vote on yours. It looks very likely as a result of the meeting with May that all the opposition parties excluding Labour could put in a jointly agreed amendment.

But it looks as if Labour would not support it. They want to have their own Brexit version, which the opposition would not support.

For all May's madness, it could end up being Labour that gets us into a no-deal.


21 Mar 19 - 02:52 PM (#3983681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Nope. No spreading the blame, please. She is the prime minister and she has taken charge of all this, sidestepping Parliament whenever she can, keeping secrets and refusing to bend and acting at every single turn in the interests of her party, never the country, and letting her rabid backbenchers and a sorry sectarian bunch call all the shots, bungs no object. Opposition parties ultimately have no real power. Whatever happens in the near future, history will rightly put one hundred percent of the blame for this on the Tories, Cameron and May in particular. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there are no principled Tories. If you vote Tory you are either woefully ignorant or you are riddled with self-interest. Know the enemy.


21 Mar 19 - 02:56 PM (#3983682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I agree we are 100% in this mess because of first Cameron and then May. There is no doubt of that. But if Labour are offered a chance to stop it and don't take it then they share the blame in my opinion.


21 Mar 19 - 04:29 PM (#3983700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Nope. I'm a member of the Labour Party and no bugger presiding over this shambles is going to pass the buck to me, thank you very much. We are where we are because of the Tory disaster that's unfolded over at least three years. Her deal is a bloody rotten deal and must be discarded. Everything else to follow that is one hundred percent Tory blackmail. God, Question Time should be good tonight...


21 Mar 19 - 04:59 PM (#3983706)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL8TJsM86x0


21 Mar 19 - 05:09 PM (#3983708)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I don't think blame and guilt add up in that way, Steve, but we will agree to differ, I hope.

I watched the first two Question Times under new management, but haven't since because I found it just wild shouting. However, I may face it this evening..


21 Mar 19 - 05:19 PM (#3983710)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Incidentally, Steve, is the thread title "Brexit #3: A futile gesture?" a particularly prescient comment on MV3?


21 Mar 19 - 05:26 PM (#3983713)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

No, it was because I thought the mods might shut down an attempt to reopen a discussion they'd already shut down twice. Thanks, Maggie.


21 Mar 19 - 06:31 PM (#3983724)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

I note reports that suppliers are stockpiling toilet rolls in case of a no deal Brexit. I am old enough to remember lavs with squares of newspaper rammed on to a nail. If you scrunched up the newspaper, it softened it. This may be a helpful tip for youngsters in the event of a shortage.


21 Mar 19 - 06:38 PM (#3983726)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

A million signatures on the 'Revoke A50' petition a few minutes ago.
Around 900,000 of which have been since May's speech. I could see it passing 2 million before the weekend is out.


Well, I was wildly pessimistic about that. It is significantly over 2.1 million already.


21 Mar 19 - 06:44 PM (#3983730)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Gosh, Karen, just eat lots of popcorn and you'll get a "clean break." Failing that, find a grassy slope in a quiet spot to slide down legs akimbo, slightly damp if possible. A second slide down a clean bit leaves one spotless. I promise not to watch. Exhilarating, I promise, and I'm an expert, though I'll not disclose my locations. There's always a way. Other no-deal advice available, for a small fee, of course. Preferably in euros.


21 Mar 19 - 07:55 PM (#3983734)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

Happy May day.


21 Mar 19 - 09:58 PM (#3983742)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

Did I understand the news today that Europe assented to the requested time extension? Who rules what the official Brexit departure date should be anyway?

The whole affair is my go-to example of what FUBAR is all about.

A FUBAR is to a SNAFU as a Catastrophe is to a Disaster.


22 Mar 19 - 01:32 AM (#3983747)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Re history: this depends on who writes it. On the assumption that history decides that Brexit was a disaster, maybe it will blame the voters who wanted to come out of the EU? Or the British Empire, which appears to be the favoured target of a great deal of blame on these boards. Myself, I think William the Conqueror has to share much of the blame, together with the Ancient Romans, who, after all, foisted Christianity on the world, to the extent that a major sect is still based in their home base, running a close second. Or maybe the Celts, those dastardly incomers! They were Europeans too, of course!


22 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM (#3983756)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Did I understand the news today that Europe assented to the requested time extension?"
They have cut the leaving time from June to the previous month I think - symbolic, given the name of the head lemming leading Britain over the cliff
Jim Carroll


22 Mar 19 - 03:01 AM (#3983757)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

They have cut the leaving time from June to the previous month I think - symbolic

If you bothered to follow the narrative you would realise that an extension until June necessitates the UK participating in the European elections.

They will offer entertainment in their own right without the UK adding further divisive icing on the cake.
Do try to keep up!


22 Mar 19 - 03:07 AM (#3983760)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Re History: This was an amusing snippet amonst everything going on last night -
===
#HannanIrishHistory was trending after pro-Brexit Tory Mr Hannan used Ireland to make a point about the EU in a comment article.

In particular, he suggested Fianna Fail had won every Irish election between 1932 and 2008, when in fact the liberal-conservative party Fine Gael was in power on six occasions during the period.

When the accuracy of his article was questioned, Mr Hannan said "historians necessarily have different takes on the same event", adding: "Please try to accept that yours is not the only interpretation."
===

Another example of the unrelenting search for accuracy and understanding we have come to expect from some of the leading Brexiteers, like Hannon and "Dover" Raab.


22 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM (#3983764)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"If you bothered to follow the narrative you"
If oyu read what I wrote, you insecure ill-mannered moron, you would notice I didn't comment on the reasons for changing the date
You pollute every thread you post to with your childish nastiness - time to grow up
Can a mod please do something about tis appalling behavior please ?
Jim Carroll


22 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM (#3983768)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Only you can do something, Jim. As suggested many times before, just ignore him.


22 Mar 19 - 03:52 AM (#3983772)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

robomatic wrote Did I understand the news today that Europe assented to the requested time extension? Who rules what the official Brexit departure date should be anyway?

Not quite, robo. The EU agreed to an extension but not the one requested. As to who rules the date, because it is a joint treaty, it is quite complicated. The EU has offered a date, but it is not legally binding on the UK because they have not formally accepted it. Last night Teresa May agreed to it, which in effect makes it government policy, but in law nothing has changed, to use her favourite phrase. It is not until Parliament formally accepts the offer and amends the law that that happens. Parliament could in principle do that now, but in practise will almost certainly wait until after MV3 because that enables them to accept one of the two alternative dates rather than have to build the alternative dates with their conditionality into the law.


22 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM (#3983776)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Jim - From Mudcat FAQs. You might like to read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest...then do as suggested here and elsewhere, Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

"Dealing With Flamers and Trolls

Here are some definitions from Netlingo.com:
flame
To send nasty or insulting messages, usually in response to someone's having broken the rules of netiquette.
flame bait
An intentionally inflammatory posting in a newsgroup or discussion group designed to elicit a strong reaction thereby creating a flame war.
flame war
When an online discussion degenerates into a series of personal attacks against the debators, rather than discussion of their positions. A heated exchange.
"Troll" is a bit more subtle, and I had a harder time finding it. Here's what I found in the Jargon Dictionary:
troll v.,n. 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." 3. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners.
Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter.

I have to say that I have become a bit cynical about people who make a big show of leaving the Mudcat because of flamers - many of these people might warrant the title of "trolls." The people who attract flamers are often quite obnoxious themselves, especially those who leave with a long farewell message that usually generates a hundred "don't go" responses or more. I am concerned about those who quietly slip away, or those who never even start to participate because of the nastiness. Those who make a show of making martyrs of themselves are every bit as bad as the flamers, I think. They prey on the sympathy of good people.

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times more: the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.

There is another problem that occasionally arises here - people who are threatening in their behavior. It is of utmost importance that you do not try to deal with these people. If you ignore them totally and inform Joe Offer or Big Mick about them quietly with a personal message or e-mail, we can quietly make them disappear (to an extent).
PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE YOURSELVES?

If people seem dangerous, LEAVE THEM ALONE."


22 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM (#3983781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Lesson learned - got up the wrong side of the bed
Jim


22 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM (#3983794)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

But Jim your bed is against the wall?!

Well UK, you will always have May
to sing and dance and play
but a very hard Brexit
will likely condemn it
to turn all your blue skies to grey


22 Mar 19 - 06:26 AM (#3983804)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"But Jim your bed is against the wall?!"
Shit - that's where the headache came from !
Must make sure I make different sleeping arrangements next time I quiz a woman (an obscure folkie joke - but quite clever, even if I say so myself)
Jim


22 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM (#3983810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Rafael Behr socks it to May:

From The EU knows it, so do our own MPs: Theresa May is finished

Continental leaders have granted an article 50 extension, but not the one requested by the prime minister... Does May like this plan? It doesn’t matter. She wasn’t in the room where it happened. The summit conclusions were handed down to the petitioning nation as it paced around an antechamber. This is the power relationship between a “third country” and the EU. Britain had better get used to it.

The terms of the extension are not drafted for the prime minister’s benefit. They contain a message from the EU direct to the House of Commons. In crude terms: piss or get off the pot. If you want to leave with a deal, vote for the damned deal. If you are foolish enough to leave without a deal, do not blame us. Have a couple more weeks to think about it. But if you want something else, a referendum or a softer Brexit, work it out soon. And then send someone who isn’t May to talk to us about it.

The point of no return was the summit in Salzburg last September. May was invited to make the case for what was left of her “Chequers plan”... and instead of speaking candidly, persuasively, passionately or even just coherently, the British prime minister read mechanically from a text that was, in substance, no different from an op-ed article already published under her name in a German newspaper that morning. It was embarrassing and insulting. Many European diplomats say that was the moment when Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron and others realised they were dealing with someone out of her depth, unable to perform at the level required for the job...

A similar story is emerging from last night’s summit. May was asked about backup plans in the event that parliament rejects her deal a third time. She had nothing. She restated her determination that the deal should pass. This infuriating obtuseness is grimly familiar on this side of the Channel...

On Wednesday night... the prime minister went on television to berate MPs for obstructing her deal. The spirit was demagogic, even if the style was typically charmless. Here was a besieged leader, emerging from her bunker, presenting herself as the champion of her people against a rotten parliament. This did not go down well with MPs... [It didn't go down well with the public either - whom she tried to rope in as being allied with her stance. I have never been so instantly, totally, utterly, reduced to incoherent rage by a pronoun in my life. - BS]

Wednesday night’s performance exposed something that many of May’s colleagues find uncomfortable to acknowledge: ...a single fatal flaw. She is unable to communicate with others because she... lacks the introspection necessary to take responsibility for the mess made by her obstinacy. She has crossed a line from stubbornness into megalomania.

That leads to a conclusion that Britain’s continental neighbours reached long ago. Even if the UK ends up leaving the EU on the terms outlined in the prime minister’s deal, her part in the story will very soon be over. She is finished. The problems with Brexit are much bigger than Theresa May’s failings as a leader. But those failings disqualify her from being part of a viable solution.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/22/eu-mps-theresa-may-finished-brexit


22 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM (#3983811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Amen to all of that, BS.

What a Poile o'Shoite this once proud nation has been dumped into by 17.4 million thick-tards and a clueless, arrogant, obstinate opportunist.


22 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM (#3983829)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

MPs should go for a vote of censure against Theresa May. It would be a very fair response to her attack on them on Wednesday.

Those who detest her on the Tory benches won't vote for a no confidence motion because they are running scared of triggering the Fixed Term Act. But a personal vote of censure wouldn't risk that, since it wouldn't have the magic words required in the act. But with an overwhelming vote of censure from across the house even with her trying to hang on to her office it would be very questionable constitutionally.
........

Isn't it a bit daft using the term "Meaningfull Votes" for votes that are ignored by the government, and are as meaningless as could be?


22 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM (#3983841)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

You pollute every thread you post to with your childish nastiness - time to grow up

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PMMake up your fucking mind you mad fascist
You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM
Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.


Jim Carroll
Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. "


Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
you seem to just exist up your own arse and you're not even good at it, having stolen most of it from elsewhere, like your claimed knowledge of socialism
Jim Carroll

Piss off you pair of racist pricks
Jim Carroll
At present, you are displaying all the belligerent thuggery and potential menage I associate with the racism you are displaying.
Jim Carroll
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 05:57 AM

"I think only you respond to his nonsense now, Jim."
Had enough of allowing an abusive poster fucking up threads

Jim
I have gone out of my way to be as polite as possible on these threads - all the personal abuse has come from elsewhere



and just what point is rattling roaring jimmie trying to make??
The sour little scouser needs to look in a mirror!


22 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM (#3983843)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Remainiacs are seriously sick puppies!


https://order-order.com/2019/03/22/sick-remainers-produce-commemorative-tea-towel-dead-brexiteers/


22 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM (#3983920)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

Bonnie,

EU is asking the wrong questions. if they are competent, then they should have realised by now that May is not a fit and proper person to negotiate on behalf of the UK, and likewise the members of party she belongs to are putting self-interest before that of their country.

EU shoud be making far more of an effort to find out what the people of the UK want. If it is not pratical to consult with the entire UK population indiviually, then to at least talk to each elected representative.

For the last two and a half years the outcome of the referendum has badly affected my personal well-being, particularly that neither party (EU or UK) have made a legally binding guarantee that there will be no impact on the ability of my long-term partner from Prague and myself to continue to enjoy our long-distance relatkonship, and make a decision in the future to live together without having to satisfy racist conditions. I resent us being discriminated against in favour of those who have been able to reside previously and not be entitled to the same opportunities. I resent that people who have benefited from the right to study, work, retire in other EU states are selfishly denying others the same right on the future. I resent those that have benefited from funding from cohesion and structural funds to improve their lives are denying the same for people who are individually disadvanteged, or live in socially and economically deprived communities. All this is just the tip of the iceberg.


22 Mar 19 - 04:28 PM (#3983955)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Could someone please link to the article in the Guardian entitled 'Secret Cabinet Office document reveals chaotic plannning for a no deal Brexit'

I cannot be alone in finding this deeply concerning.


22 Mar 19 - 04:49 PM (#3983962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Here it is

That manages to disturb me in two quite distinct ways simultaneously. It is disturbing it is being done at all, though I expect to hear a casual "we need to prepare for all eventualities" as if this was not important.

But it also disturbs me in the diametrically opposed way. If you seriously think the risk of rioting or worse is real, and presumably there is little reason to think one urban area will differ greatly from another, 3500 staff will go nowhere. I am not sure how exactly you would define a small town, but that the UK has 350 or so seems plausible. So that's ten each. So it manages to be too many and far too few at the same time, depending on your point of view.


22 Mar 19 - 05:02 PM (#3983965)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

They do not call them remainiacs for nothing. It appears the instigator of the revoke article 50 petition is a raving loony.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/22/revoke-article-50-petition-creator-threatened-may-discussed-buy-legal-guns-take-commons/

"The creator of the petition is a certain Margaret Anne Georgiadou, who went on LBC to discuss the petition this afternoon. Now Guido can reveal a series of shocking posts from her on Facebook where she makes repeated death threats against Theresa May. She even discusses in detail with fellow Remainers how to purchase “legal” guns and go to the House of Commons.

In January, Georgiadou wrote about how she hoped that May would kill herself. In two further comments that now appear to have been deleted, she described May (or possibly Andrea Leadsom) as a “creature” that “needs putting down” and threatened to shoot May “point blank”.

I wonder what Mr Plod makes of all this?
The leftards keep strange company!


22 Mar 19 - 05:26 PM (#3983968)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator

I don't remember the referendum voting slip consenting to allow the goverment any emergency powers in the event of civil unrest.


22 Mar 19 - 06:18 PM (#3983978)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Leave means Leave march

It is heartening, in its way, that "Leave"'s style of setting off and doing things with minimal planning has not deserted it. I particularly liked

On its second day, plans to cross the River Tees by the famous Transporter Bridge had to be abandoned when the group arrived only to find the bridge did not operate on Sundays.


22 Mar 19 - 09:38 PM (#3983999)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow

The identity of the person who originates an online petition is not too significant. It's worth remembering that the biggest ever online petition in the UK back in 2016 was set up before the referendum was held. It called for a second referendum to give people a chance to think again, if the winning side failed to reach 60% in a turnout of 75%.

The petition got 4,150,260, even more than the Revoke Article 50 one (though with 3,885,883 already this could easily get more before it's through.

And the person who originated it? A leaver, one Oliver Healey. He set it up before the vote, on the assumption that the Brexit option would be rejected the first time through. In the event of course Leave left, though with only 52% of a turn out of only 72%. He complained that the petition had been hijacked after the referendum by leave voters, who shared what on the face of it was Mr Healey's understanding of how democracy should work.


23 Mar 19 - 12:25 AM (#3984005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

@ SPB: I can see where you are coming from, but the problem with asking the people of the UK what they want is that they are divided, as the close referendum result shows. Not only that but EU sceptics are not an undivided set, and split on the basis of what they hope to get out of leaving. Here's hoping that your relationship survives whatever happens.

Some hoped (foolishly) for an end to the welfare state cutbacks imposed by this government funded by a reduction in EU paymentsm, whereas others don't much like the welfare state.

I should think that if the government seriously felt there was a chance of revoking Article 50 it would have plans to deal with social unrest caused by that, as suggestions have been made that this would cause some leavers to react.

I don't see any way to a happy ending at the moment.


23 Mar 19 - 12:38 AM (#3984006)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

What got me about Theresa May's speech to the nation was her statement that she understood that 'I' was worried about the NHS and the state of schools. I am, but mainly because of the tax and welfare state and educational policies of her government.


23 Mar 19 - 01:02 AM (#3984007)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

To back up what I said about potential civil unrest, there are reports of tailbacks on motorways deliberately caused by Brexiters.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6840679/Furious-Brexiteers-cause-traffic-chaos-country-organise-lorries-block-motorways.html


23 Mar 19 - 02:20 AM (#3984012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

One thing easily overlooked in that article, KarenH, is the numbers of drivers involved :

Devon and Cornwall Police said it had stopped the convoys on the A30 and M5 and prosecuted the two lead drivers of both convoys for careless and inconsiderate driving.

or again

he Nottinghamshire Brexit go slow protest along the M1 this evening - eight vehicles took part flanked by police cars

We all know how a single breakdown on a motorway can lead to very long tailbacks. So while the disruption may be very significant for any such action, it only takes a handful of people to cause it. Yet, because of the way media works, it is likely to get as much attention as today's march with hundreds of thousands of attendees.


23 Mar 19 - 03:38 AM (#3984028)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Some good news from the brexit fiasco. The tories are going to break with centuries of tradition and field a candidate against the speaker come the next election. I suspect no peerage on his departure either! How sad!


23 Mar 19 - 04:52 AM (#3984039)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is just possible, you know, that a person might care more about Parliament working to the rules of centuries than whether he or she gets a peerage.


23 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM (#3984046)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

More good news for the Brexit fiasco
The US have now stated that there will be no free trade agreement if Britain opts for a hard border
Chew on that one folks
Jim Carroll


23 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM (#3984058)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Huh. Devon and Cornwall Police. Nicked two people for driving too slow after they nicked ME for driving too fast a couple of weeks ago. Make your minds up, plod! :-(


23 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM (#3984070)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The US have now stated that there will be no free trade agreement if Britain opts for a hard border

Care to show us all where Britain has suggested a hard border? Is it your acute anglophobia showing or simply an inability to understand simple text?


23 Mar 19 - 07:30 AM (#3984077)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

"Free trade" deal with the US? This is the protectionist Trump we are talking about. Even under Obama, who wasn't quite as bad, the terms of trade deals looked bleak, this was one reason some wanted to come out of the EU, the TTIP deal. Bad news for many decent domestic policies.


23 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM (#3984080)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

It's partly I think to do with US dislike of European social models. They prefer tea parties and so on.


23 Mar 19 - 07:40 AM (#3984082)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Of course not all US citizens think alike, I should have made this clear.


23 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM (#3984091)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

London streets jammed up with protesters demanding a second referendum
Jim Carroll


23 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM (#3984099)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

But no response to the, British hard border. Now ain't that a surprise!


23 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM (#3984167)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I wasn't at the march, because I don't think a referendum is the best way out, either in terms of political stability or avoidance of manipulation. It the Revocation movement had started a week earlier, and the march has been more definitely about that, I would have.


But there were some good posters. My favourite was "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is starting to look a good idea."


24 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM (#3984221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

The Praying Mantis's days look numbered according to news reports this morning. The suggestions as to who may take over from her however - her current effective-deputy, David Lidington, or The Lying Scottish Viper - look equally unattractive.

Failed former-Brexit minister, David Davis, also seems to be calling for a 'WTO Outcome' (A.K.A. 'No-deal crash-out'). From disaster to absolute disaster!

You really couldn't make this debacle up, could you? Still, on the plus side, at least by so debasing ourselves, we've given the EU27 a bloody good laugh.


24 Mar 19 - 03:21 AM (#3984228)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

WTO rules is the only way of actually LEAVING the European Union. Every little bit of a deal we do ties us to the European Union and it's rules. The reason remainers talk of taking 'Crashing Out' off the table is because they do not want to leave at all and 'Crashing Out' is the only way to truly leave. You talk about leaver's lies but this is the biggest lie of all. Taking 'Crashing Out' off the table really means NOT leaving at all.


24 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM (#3984236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

That's more a matter of definition that actuality, stanron. There are at least two other ways of leaving without following the WTO rules. The first has not been explicitly talked about as far as I know, but it is real and to some extent a few of the proposals are based on this.

a) You could leave and not choose to follow WTO rules.
Philosophically, if you object to the EU because you don't want to have rules set by a remote organisation whose democratic accountability you think very dubious, then it makes little sense to move to one which is even more remote and has no democratic accountability at all. But practically, the enforcement of WTO rules is ultimately set by a court and Trump is refusing to appoint the US representative to it. So in practice, the court cannot sit and the rules cannot be enforced. Some of the issues around Northern Ireland arise because of WTO rules. If you decided to ignore the rules it actually eases some of the problems.

So leaving and not following the WTO rules fully is undoubtedly a huge risk and potentially has great long term costs, but it is theoretically possible.

b) What was proposed during the referendum.
I expect everyone remembers the famous 'easiest deal in history' quotation. If you read the stuff around it, the idea was that initially the UK would follow the EU rules *voluntarily*, not by *legal obligation*, and then over time adapt them to something more in line with our wishes. If a given set of standards is acceptable to the EU and our businesses are set up to work to those standards, why not follow them until you come up with something you like better? There is some sense in this, and had it been possible to continue to trade with the EU on this basis, it would have been far better than the WTO rules. We were unable to negotiate the joint recognition of standards bodies this would need.


24 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM (#3984240)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I should add that option (b) is the approach we have largely taken to leaving so far. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 brought a significant amount of EU law into UK law, so we have adopted it and once we leave we will continue follow it, but are free to change it at a later date. It is also what Teresa May is offering Labour - incorporate the current workers' rights etc into UK law, and as new EU laws are proposed the UK Parliament would consider whether to adopt them.


24 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM (#3984242)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

"If a given set of standards is acceptable to the EU and our businesses are set up to work to those standards, why not follow them until you come up with something you like better?"

My understanding is that unless lots of things meet EU standards you cannot sell them to the EU. So if the 'standards' you like better are lower standards you have to give up selling that product to the EU.

There were certainly objections to EU standards. I remember the BBC doing a programme about standards for vacuum cleaners which were supposed to forbid super powerful cleaners and they found some UK businesses which claimed they could not function as businesses without such super powerful cleaners. There was one story after another purporting to demonstrate the 'madness' of EU standards.


24 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM (#3984245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Yes, that's right, Karen.   If we take vacuum cleaners as a example, the EU rules say they will only accept certain standards. If we wanted to sell to them, we have to meet those standards. But that is a decision of the individual business: make an EU-compatible version, an EU incompatible version, or both. As an EU member, it is possible the rules restricted what we could manufacture - I really don't know. Outside the EU, we could certainly manufacture both if we wished.


24 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM (#3984246)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Bent bananas for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Regulation_(EC)_No._2257/94


24 Mar 19 - 05:03 AM (#3984252)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

" Regulation 1221/2008 took effect as of 1 July 2009. Though neither the press release cited above nor Regulation 1221/2008 made any mention of bananas or Regulation 2257/94, some reports of the changes treated them as including the banana quality standards regulation and contained explicit or apparent references to this regulation, using expressions such as "the infamous 'straight banana' ruling". Some sources have claimed this to be an admission that the original regulations did indeed ban "bent bananas", or that it was accepted that it was "a farce".


24 Mar 19 - 05:22 AM (#3984255)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH

Bananas are classified by quality and size so they can be traded internationally. Quality standards are also needed so that people know what they are buying and that the produce meets their expectations.

Straight & bendy are not banned by the EU. Commission

Regulation 2257/94 identifies certain restrictions for fruits that producers have to conform to in order to sell their produce within the EU. The regulation states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."

Class 1 bananas can have "slight defects of shape" and Class 2 bananas full-on "defects of shape".


24 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM (#3984259)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Nice 'quote of the week' in this morning's Sunday Times
France's European Minister, Nathanlie Loieau, has said she's named her cat Brexit
"She wakes me up at night mewling that she wants to go out, but when I get up to open the door she stay's where she is"
Jim


24 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM (#3984268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Squirrelling around desperately to find and ridicule examples of arcane EU "rules" (which are generally mythological in any case when examined a bit more closely) is something I thought we'd long ago got out of our systems. EU rules and regulations are generally arrived at by consensus, and the UK has accepted over 95% of them without demur. We've abstained on some of those 5% and opposed very few. You don't achieve agreement and harmony across 28 countries by trying to bring in silly rules. Now being made to import beef pumped up with hormones and chickens still riddled with Salmonella (due to lousy husbandry) even after being washed in chlorine, IS something to worry about.


24 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM (#3984276)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/12/to-properly-explain-the-eus-bendy-bananas-rules-yes-theyre-real/


25 Mar 19 - 06:22 PM (#3984548)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So the amendment has just been passed saying Parliament will have control of the agenda on Wednesday. Depending on the mechanisms chosen to try to find a common way forward could be indecisive and just add to the confusion, but it might come up with something. But whether it does or not, I think the precident that the executive must in some circumstances be subservient to Parliament is a very good thing indeed. If there is a majority for the ruling party it has negligible effect but when either party is a minority it stops it behaving as if it had a majority. That seems right to me.


26 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM (#3984571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The precedent you mention is in reality the fact that the mother of all Parliaments has just whelped a devil.
A majority voted for brexit.
A majority voted for article 50
A majority of MPs stood for re-election on a party ticket of brexit.

Now the cabal of remainers have overturned the will of the executive.

If MPs can overturn the executive perhaps 17.5,000,000 brexiteers can overturn the country.

A very dangerous precedent has been set and the loser is democracy.

No matter how you wish to dress it up the will of the majority has been thwarted, as has democracy. For Britain this puts us in potentially dangerous territory.
It is a battle between nationalism and multinational driven globalism. A battle fought in America where Trump won.
    In the EU their is a chance that Macron will win, he is already bleating about Britain remaining in the EU is destroying his vision of a United States of Europe.

There is far far more at stake than simply membership of the EU.
Time a few woke up to the true agenda.


26 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM (#3984575)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

History reveals that all empires have a time span, the European empire, imo is no different, it may prolong its lifetime by making internal reforms but its days are numbered.
However, the UK leaving right now, is imo going to leave toimmediate hardship for many in the uk and western europe, we have a choice between european multi national capitalism and non european multinational capitalism.
if i was able to vote right now it would not be for pie in the sky, but to remain. the u will feck itself up in time but hopefully after my lifetime


26 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM (#3984584)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Just for the moment, I am not talking about Brexit specifically, but how our system works in terms of democracy.

We agree, I hope, that MPs are elected based on the democratic choice of the constituents of their seat? True, safe seats and other forms of bias make this less clear cut than we might wish, but I think we can grant MPs are democratically elected.

Party leaders are elected by members of the respective party, but not by the public at large. This is a very weak form of democracy because the vast majority of the country is excluded by virtue of not being members of that party.

The government is appointed by the PM, which is normally the party leader. So while the MPs are democratically elected their appointment to a ministry is not democratic at all. Most recently - accelerating massively under Tony Blair - unelected "special advisors" have been given roles in government, completely excluding any democratic component.

So in my book, it is pretty clear that the Parliament is democratically elected but the government is not.   For that reason, sovereignty lies in Parliament, not government. Put another way, when asked whether the government's role is to serve Parliament, or Parliament's role is to serve government, I go with the former.


26 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM (#3984586)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Last night I spoke to a Northern Ireland friend who moves regularly between the Republic and the Six Counties
The discussion centred on the problem of driving licences, Green cards and the steady destabilisation of North Eastern businesses - and that's before Britain has made up its mind whether it wants a divorce and whether they are prepared to pay the alimony for the human and social damage it is going to cause both sides of the border
The damage it is going to cost Britain is apparently not worth a thought by them at the helm of the rudderless boat that Brexit now is recognised as
We all had a giggle over the cartoon depicting a lorry leaving Fishguard to be confronted with two adjacent road signs reading "You are now leaving Fishguard" and "Please join this queue for The Channel Tunnel"
Jim Carroll


26 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM (#3984589)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

For the Tory party leadership contests Tory MPs select two candidates for the membership to vote for.
The monarchy appoints the party leader of the major party to be PM.
The PM selects ministers.
The majority party forms the government, or failing a majority a coalition. That is democracy.
For the rank and file backbenchers of both parties to commandeer Parliament for their own nefarious purposes breaks both convention and democracy.

You can try and explain it away however you like but the process betrays democracy, the same as overturning the referendum results.
Bliar Blair should be charged with treason for conspiring with the EU against the clearly stated wishes of the UK majority.


26 Mar 19 - 05:41 AM (#3984590)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

We all had a giggle over the cartoon depicting a lorry leaving Fishguard to be confronted with two adjacent road signs reading "You are now leaving Fishguard" and "Please join this queue for The Channel Tunnel"

and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face!


26 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM (#3984591)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The quickest way to undermine parliamentary democracy is to wrestle away from its remit the most crucial issue in front of it since WW2 and put it into the hands of over forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination (next time you're down the pub, ask a random handful of people what a customs union is). You can then compound this error by staging a six-month campaign of lies before putting it to a ballot giving a binary choice expressed in crudely simplistic terms.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again: the decisions in Parliament to hold the referendum and enact Article 50 were made by a body of MPs which overwhelmingly supports staying in the EU. They voted the way they did because they were put in the position of a turkey being forced to choose one of two kinds of Christmas: allow the UK to make the disastrous exit from the EU but keep your job, or oppose the referendum/Article 50 in the interests of the country and lose your job. So, with few exceptions, they decided to do politics in the face of a populist surge kicked off by Cameron instead of putting the interests of the country first. And, if it ever comes to a vote on whether to revoke Article 50, which everyone with more than one brain cell knows is the only sane solution to this, they'll do the same again. It has nothing to do with "respecting the will of the people" or "refusing to betray democracy" and everything to do with keeping their jobs. And that is the ultimate disrespect for the people of this country.


26 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM (#3984598)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

We elect MPs assuming they have a degree of integrity. At the last election both Tory and Labour candidates stood on a joint party ticket of leave the EU.
How do you explain away their sudden transmutation into staunch remainers post the election? Did they encounter kryptonite in the Commons or did grubby job security take precedence over honesty and integrity.

You talk turkeys when in reality they are canards in a feeble attempt to justify their abysmal behaviour.

We need a vote of confidence and an election and to fight the EU elections and start all over and have representatives we can trust.


26 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM (#3984600)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

A few Brexiteers (Rees-Mogg, Fabricant for example) are now saying they are minded to vote for May's deal. Sounds like they are prepared to live with the backstop and the UK being a vassal state after all then, rather than let the people confirm that they want that rather than to have a voice in EU rules and regulations.


26 Mar 19 - 08:11 AM (#3984606)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

The missing 30000
Interesting bit of news manipulation in the press this morning
The English Times Murdoch bum-wipe reports that 50,000 Irish jobs will be lost thanks to Brexit while the Irish Times and the lady who wrote the report being interview on the radio claims the figure to be 80,000
It seems the right wing press is about as numerate adept as is Britain's leaders

CLARE; I'm sure the lady you referred to has no opinion on the matter
Jim Carroll


26 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM (#3984609)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

The quickest way to undermine parliamentary democracy is to wrestle away from its remit the most crucial issue in front of it since WW2 and put it into the hands of over forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination

So the hoi polloi are insufficiently knowledgeable to decide on a vote on whether to remain in the EU, but the MPs (who were elected by that same electorate) are!

What an interesting viewpoint.


26 Mar 19 - 09:19 AM (#3984615)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"So the hoi polloi are insufficiently knowledgeable to decide on a vote on whether to remain in the EU"
They're apparently not to be trusted enough to be allowed to confirm their decision now that the destination has become clear Nigel
The driver has firmly decided the route (or should that be rout?) on this Magical Mystery Tour from day one and most of them are sending their own PERSONAL LUGGAGE off on a safer one as soon as they saw what was heading their way
Jim


26 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM (#3984620)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

That is precisely my viewpoint, Nigel. We PAY them to become more au fait than the rest of us. Or why not take YOUR viewpoint to its logical conclusion: let's have a referendum on everything. And don't forget to ask that random selection of pub punters what a customs union is. One bar where you'll get the correct answer every time would be the one in the House of Commons. I don't fancy your chances anywhere else.


26 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM (#3984651)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words...


26 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM (#3984652)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words..."
Wear it as a badge of honour Steve - you need to take into consideration the characters of the people who use it
Jim


26 Mar 19 - 02:51 PM (#3984664)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Hoi polloi = the rank and file, the populace, the public, the people, the multitude,

It is also worth pointing out that MPs refer to themselves in the house as honourable. Lying cheating conniving is a more accurate prefix in my book.
If they cannot be trusted who has any confidence in them and who will re elect them.
What does a professional MP bring to the table?
They have never accomplished anything and have no knowledge outside their little Westminster bubble. Typical of the left to have complete faith in such people. They will be advocating 5 year plans next!


26 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM (#3984669)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

font=color"yellow>CLARE; I'm sure the lady you referred to has no opinion on the matter


26 Mar 19 - 03:51 PM (#3984670)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Please ignore the above I was playing about in preview and forgot to tick the box


26 Mar 19 - 05:13 PM (#3984677)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

'Lying, cheating' conniving.............'      


Surely this cannot come from the posts of one who told us we should have more respect for our politicians?

Or was it the other one.


26 Mar 19 - 05:27 PM (#3984681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I cannot believe I would say anything complimentary about MPs. You must show me where I said such an obvious untruth.


26 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM (#3984682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

"Hoi polloi" is derogatory. That's the sense in which Nigel used it and it's why it's not my choice of words for the people of this country. "Forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination (next time you're down the pub, ask a random handful of people what a customs union is)" is what I said. Some of those forty million will be expert plasterers, builders, plumbers, bus drivers, electricians, orthopaedic surgeons and university lecturers. We pay them to be accomplished in those fields. We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues. I don't want to ask an MP to do my sink replacement and I don't want to ask my plumber to decide the fate of my children and grandchildren.


26 Mar 19 - 06:12 PM (#3984686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues.

R U 4 REAL ?


26 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM (#3984700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I pay my plumber to service my boiler, install new taps and fix leaks. He's not perfect; he's been banned from driving for repeated excessive speeding offences. He managed to flood my kitchen once last year, but he's an excellent chap who makes mistakes and I'll keep him coming. The man who sweeps my chimneys and who maintains my stoves was fined £600 for driving without insurance. He managed to breach a certain building regulation once when he signed off the new wood-burning stove he'd installed for us, but it was a misunderstanding of the regs and there's no hazard or problem that can't be easily fixed if I ever sell the house. I'll be booking him again in the next few weeks. I don't care for my Tory MP at all but I accept the democratic process that elected him. I don't actually see him at his multifaceted work but I'm reasonably confident that he's fairly dutiful, even though he consistently supports policies that I disagree with. The thing is, he got elected to decide on those policies whereas I wasn't. He's far from perfect and I wouldn't expect him to be. Many MPs have been known to stretch points on their expenses forms and a few need to grow up sexually, and it would be nice if they put public interest above watching their backs. Same with some bank managers, doctors, professors, vicars and headteachers and a lot of others who we should feel are worthy of respect but who are somewhat less in the public eye than politicians. Thing is, we get the politicians we deserve. But suggest political education in schools and all of a sudden, according to Tories, every teacher becomes a potential red under the bed. So we have an electorate who are politically ignorant unless they educate themselves as best they can (given the generally warped and skewed resources at their disposal), and that is a small minority (have you asked those random boozers yet what a customs union is?) If every MP was as bloody useless as some suggest, we wouldn't have a country. They have a job to do, and the most that any of us see of it is their pronouncements on the telly. The tip of the iceberg.


27 Mar 19 - 01:15 AM (#3984717)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

nigel and ian ,it is the law that parliament has the last say , this datesback to the time of oliver cromwell, you can think what you like but this is a fact, and the referendum was asdvisory with parliameny having the last say that is the law of the land


27 Mar 19 - 02:05 AM (#3984718)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Moreover, once Parliament has decided something and passed a law, they can revisit it at any time to see if it needs to be revised. This means the fact most MPs voted to invoke article 50 has little weight: what matters is whether they still think the process they put in place.is delivering what they intended.


27 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM (#3984747)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

As I've posted elsewhere today...

David Davis (failed former BrexShit Secretary) in 2012 - "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

That simple sentence is the absolute answer to all of the confuscation, whataboutery, and plain, simple bullshit from the Brexit-Brigade.

End of.


27 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM (#3984749)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

I see no evidence of Backwoodsman changing his mind. Does this make him undemocratic?


27 Mar 19 - 09:54 AM (#3984757)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback

No, but it makes you a jackass.


27 Mar 19 - 09:59 AM (#3984758)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

At least he HAS a mind, apparently unlike the vast bulk of people who brainlessly voted for brexit.


27 Mar 19 - 10:02 AM (#3984760)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I don't think it does, Mossback, but he is confused about the difference between changing your mind and being given the opportunity to change your mind.


27 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM (#3984818)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is getting hard to keep track of all the U turns, but I think Boris declared May's deal an 8nacceptable straightjacket yesterday, that he would vote for it today and the with the DUP announcement it won't back or abstain, finds himself declaring he will back a deal the hardliners hate that may not take place at all. Sounds as if he is spinning so fast he has stabbed himself in the back.

Meanwhile, it looks as if Bercow will only allow the deal to come back if is significantly amended, probably by including something Parliament selects via indicative vote process, even though May would not commit to doing that. Meanwhile also May promises to remain if her deal (which she might not be able to vote on) is passed; and if has been amended she may not think it her deal anyway. Meanwhile the ERG is splitting with a number saying they will back her vote (which may not be voted on and if amended by, say, adding in a confirmatory referendum they may now be unable to support again
)

However both houses have amended the departure date so we are definitely NOT leaving on Friday - sorry, Nigel!

Everyone clear?


27 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM (#3984821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I typed remain when I meant resign above. Sorry. This is my 4th time trying to say so - the site keeps timing out


27 Mar 19 - 06:34 PM (#3984827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Yeah, Mudcat has been a complete pig for a couple of days. I'm glad it's not just me.


27 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM (#3984828)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Basically after 3 years of prevarication it is all as clear as mud.

I understand that after being told that the on-line propostion would be ignored by the government that the issue, ie reversing Article 50, will now be discussed in Parliament after all.


27 Mar 19 - 06:46 PM (#3984832)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Only in Westminster Hall, not in the House, and there will be no vote.


27 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM (#3984833)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

9.45pm update: MPs reject all eight Brexit alternative plans

Motion B) No deal - defeated by 400 votes to 160, majority 240.

Motion D) Common market 2.0 - defeated by 283 votes to 188, majority 95.

Motion H) Efta and EEA - defeated by 377 votes to 65, majority 312.

Motion J) Customs union - defeated by 272 votes to 264, majority eight.

Motion K) Labour's alternative plan - defeated by 307 votes to 237, majority 70.

Motion L) Revocation to avoid no-deal - defeated by 293 votes to 184, majority 109.

Motion M) Confirmatory public vote - defeated by 295 voted to 268, majority 27.

Motion O) Contingent preferential arrangements - defeated by 422 votes to 139, majority 283


27 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM (#3984834)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Indeed all options were rejected, but not equally. There will be another vote on Monday, probably, and is is very likely that all options with, say, 150 or more voting against will not get anywhere. Options with say less than 50 adrift are much more likely to pass in future.

I would not be surprised to see May's deal with a confirmation vote being the winner in the end, partially because that does not cross any of May's red lines.


27 Mar 19 - 07:05 PM (#3984836)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

But the SNP didn't vote on any of them except for the Margaret Beckett amendment. They are sure to weigh in at some stage. And the customs union didn't lose by large margin.

If you crunch the numbers, there were a lot of abstainers keeping their powder dry.

Meanwhile the DUP blew out of the water May's hopes for backing her deal. If Bercow even allows it to be moved.

Far from done and dusted. This was just a knock-out round.


27 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM (#3984838)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Cross-posted with DMcG


27 Mar 19 - 07:33 PM (#3984843)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Rees Mogg has switched again again again. Now he's in line with the DUP. Too bad they can't delete print newspaper headlines.


27 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM (#3984845)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

It's all bloody Tory games. I'll go if you'll vote for me. I'll vote for you if the Ulster fascists vote for you, otherwise I might not. I hate your deal but I'll vote for it anyway otherwise my constituents will think I'm betraying "the will of the people." I've dragged you down twice but goddammit I'll vote for you even though your shit stinks because the one thing that'll save the country might happen if I don't.

Anyone for principles?

Anyone for what is actually in the interests of the country?


28 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM (#3984857)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Well, nobody could accuse extreme-Right-Wing Tories like Jacob ("Call me Jake") Rich-Mong of putting country before party and their own personal wealth, could they?


28 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM (#3984860)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Who is up for writing a new version of "The Vicar of Bray"?


28 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM (#3984861)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

They are not even trying to hide it any more.

May: Vote for my proposal. It is good.
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal. Pretty please
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal and I'll give you chance of more power
ERG: OK then!

As big a bunch of self-serving twats that ever (dis)graced a government.


28 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM (#3984862)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

My MP voted for a no-deal (rejected by the House earlier) and for a variation of the Malthouse (explicitly taken back to the EU and trashed completely by them.) He voted against everything else.

Nice to see intelligent compromise at work.


28 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM (#3984864)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Brexit won the referendum, Parliament voted to implement that decision.
The only reason we have the present chaos is because MPs value their
sinecure more than their honour.
They may have to revamp their cvs in the not too distant future.

I see tin cans   skipping   down the road and into the very long grass

and it shall come to pass
Hosea 8:7


28 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM (#3984867)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

i think we are way past the point of the game where the victims of britain's imperial wars rise up with the great trees of sherwood and across the country, cut down for car parks and boxy wee houses for thatcher's zombie children, and sweep across the land behind ivor cutler on a unicorn.

'right everybody....i'm in charge for now so be quiet......'


28 Mar 19 - 07:31 AM (#3984882)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Soooo, enticing the ERGs by dangling visions of a vacant No.10 before their starry eyes didn't work. Why waste the remains of your colours nailing them to a mast if it's just about to disappear beneath the waves? Rats and sinking ships come to mind. The perfect metaphor for their political integrity.

Not having managed to manipulate her Sunday-lunch clique with bribery, May now tries it on the whole nation. Only trouble is, it seems to be an equation. An equation with no date. Pass my deal = I will step down. Ahhh, those teensy little conjunctions "if" and "when".

What happens if the MPs don't? Or if Bercow disallows MV3? Ooops. Guess she doesn't have to abide by her word. Again.


Ian Dunt (editor of the site Politics.co.uk) writes:

"What an abominable circus. It's hard to know where the greater blame should be put. On the prime minister who has made her own eradication a bribe to force through the product of her failure? Or the great defenders of British sovereignty who have suddenly decided none of their principles mean anything if there is a chance to finish off a political rival?...

Any deal which requires the resignation of its author in order to get it passed is by default not worth supporting. And any political culture which would require the author of a deal to step down in order for MPs to back it is plainly in a state of advanced decay. What followed was a masterclass in hypocrisy so severe that it was startling even in this golden age of consequence-free political lying...

It is the Nazi-Soviet pact of the Brexit debate: a deal so cynical it contains its own gravitational field. May is prepared to offer her resignation in exchange for the deal, on the basis that if it passes she probably won't have to see it through...

The indicative votes represented the fabled parliamentary sovereignty which [the ERGs] spent the referendum insisting the country had lost. They wanted our own parliament to pass our own laws. And yet when it started to do so, they preferred vassalage."

- Ian Dunt


https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation


28 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM (#3984889)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Lesson on the black arts from the EU.

MEPs tricked on vote for internet copyright directive


28 Mar 19 - 08:52 AM (#3984896)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

According to a live feed:

12:03

Raab calls for 'pragmatism' and says UK should return to EU to demand legally-binding changes to backstop


That looks like a textbook example of lack of pragmatism to me.


28 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM (#3984919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

A report today on the BBC news websites gives yet another insight into the disgraceful conduct of the Conserative government.

It reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.

This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.

Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.

And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.


28 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM (#3984921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

There was a comment posted by one of the pundits that the future of the UK is now in the hands of some 120,000 Conservative party members and how they are influenced by the campaigning of the potential leaders. It is true enough that I seriously looked into joining the Conservative Party for the scrap of influence on the future.

Two problems: the first, which I actually fully agree with, is that you only get voting rights after 3 months membership. That is sensible, and I might be in time, or I might not.

But the clincher is that they don't get to decide, really. They have a choice between two candidates, selected from on high. If the two have very different goals, then that would be, to coin a phrase, a meaningful vote. But if they are two people with a very similar viewpoint, which is by far the most likely thing, then is the vote is of no real significance.

No one need fear: I will not be joining the Tory party.


28 Mar 19 - 12:03 PM (#3984922)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

t reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.
This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.
Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.
And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Shameful indeed! But the undeniable fact is that according to the Rountree foundation report child povery levels were higher under Labour.

If the Tory record is shameful what words do you suggest to summarise Labour's despicable record?

Terrible things facts. In fact poverty levels among pensioners were 15% higher under Blair.

Should we support and applaud Labour miserable efforts?
I rather fink not!


28 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM (#3984930)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Twist it any way you want Iains. I care not which government it is.

The fact is occuring in 21st century England is an absolute travesty.

Your support for them is also known.


28 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM (#3984931)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

From the Child Poverty Action Group

Child poverty reduced dramatically between 1998/9-2011/12 when 800,000 children were lifted out of poverty

I can't remember who was elected in 1997 and 2010. Can you, Raggy?


28 Mar 19 - 02:55 PM (#3984939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Any fool can play games with statistics. Political parties come and go, as do economic cycles. To take one statistic and plot it against time is simplistic in the extreme. It needs to   be studied in context and trying to play party politics by simplifying the underlying realities achieves nothing other than a loss of credibility. There have been major changes in society over the last 20 years and in government policies. There were also depressions in the early 80's, 90's and 2008/9.

Interest rates generally declined during the recession from a peak of 17.0% at the beginning of 1980 to a low of 9.6% in October 1982.
Unemployment rose from 6.9% of the working population in 1990 to 10.7% in 1993.Annual inflation was 9.5% in 1990, 5.9% in 1991, 3.7% in 1992. and 1.6% in 1993. Interest rates were stubbornly high initially but declined from a high of 14.8% at the start of the recession to a low of 5.9% by the end of the recession
Manufacturing output declined 7% by end 2008 during the late 2000s financial crisis. The unemployment rate rose to 8.3% (2.68m people) in August 2011, the highest level since 1994.

All played a part.


28 Mar 19 - 04:12 PM (#3984949)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

any fool can play games with statistics.

many of us on the left are totally scunnered with tony blair . however, he did pump billions into public services and working in the public sector we could all see the difference (just don't mention PPI!) the tories never stop reminding us of how much the labour party spent. but, proper jobs were there providing security for families and communities. people were able to access a welfare system largely without punitive and indiscriminate sanctions. etc etc etc.....

however, it hardly needs saying that tories will always work to dismantle the state for the benefit of their rich friends. and 'the left' should always work to support it for all our benefit. as michael foot said - something like - 'the rich have no need of government as they will always prosper' it's vital for the rest of society. it's our countries' tragedy that it is always the rich who run it and that so many of us believe the lies and continue to believe that only the toffs know how to run the show.

we need more faith and belief in ourselves. to believe in the tories and their lies is unforgivable when they are so shamelessly greedy and inept.


29 Mar 19 - 01:48 AM (#3984974)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

It's just not worth the effort with some people, Pete.


29 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM (#3984980)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Perhaps gnome but unlike you my reputation here is intact! Now how about a contribution to the discussion instead of your usual sniping.


29 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM (#3984990)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Brexit: Police brace for disorder after far-right protesters threaten to riot at London rallies

Let's hope that is no more than nervousness and it all comes to nothing. But it will be a big contrast to the Leave march with 1,000,000 or so attendees if it does happen. Both sides are disappointed at the outcome, but their response could be very different.


29 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM (#3984998)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Obviously I hate Murdoch and The Sun (especially as a Liverpool fan), but if I may be allowed a moment of levity deep in this vale of tears I'd like to draw attention to today's Sun front page, which, referring to "Brexy's Midnight Runners," follows with the headline COME ON ARLENE


(Seen online, by the way. I'd rather hack off my gonads with a rusty machete than pay money for that despicable rag, but I've gotta applaud that headline writer).


29 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM (#3985005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

1300! :-)


29 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM (#3985008)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I think it was a general question, Jim. No-one who wants to keep their sanity interacts with him any more.

Nice to see you BTW.


29 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM (#3985012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Nice to see you BTW."
Never went far Dave - why waste a good forum with light entertainment such as this over a few bad experiences ?
You'd have to pay a great deal to get into a circus that offers clowns as entertaining as this one
Jim


29 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM (#3985014)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Twitter's a gold mine for entertainment. Fave Brexit tweet so far:

Brexit is a terrible name for it. Sounds like cereal you eat when you're constipated.


29 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM (#3985021)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy

Well, happy Brexit Day #1...


29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM (#3985024)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll


29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM (#3985025)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll


29 Mar 19 - 08:50 AM (#3985027)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

3 times is the charm


29 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM (#3985031)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Bad luck around here
I' having an appalling internet posting problem at present - not sure if it's this forum or a local speed problem
Jim


29 Mar 19 - 12:14 PM (#3985050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

It's not just you, Jim. Copy everything before sending.

By the way, Jim, "a**s" can't just be "arse" with the 'e' missing. Too many **s for that. Unless it's the Scottish pronunciation in which you roll your 'r's, in which case you could conceivably spell it "arrse." But it's more commonly rendered "erse" or "errse" in my experience.

Roll your 'r's? Roll your arse?? God, I'm confused...

Dave, you can even roll an axis...

And I note the the Commons has just given Theresa a well-deserved kick up the 'arris...


29 Mar 19 - 12:16 PM (#3985051)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Or do I mean an axle, Dave?


29 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM (#3985057)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Too many **s for that. "
Don't forget the sender is innumerate as well as illiterate

Iains
You have been a serial abuser since you joined this forum - the pathetic number of responses to your abuse are - well - pathetic


29 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM (#3985067)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

May's proposals kicked into touch again
You really couldn't make this up
Jim Carroll


29 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM (#3985071)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te.


29 Mar 19 - 02:36 PM (#3985072)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"A second EU Referendum would be undemocratic", said the PM who brought her 'Deal' back to Parliament to be voted on three times, and is now threatening to bring it back for a fourth vote next week!

What was that thing the Brexshitters were saying about 're-running the vote until you get the result you want'?

Sauce, goose, gander.


29 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM (#3985074)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te."
Of course it was - why should it be any different from everything connected with this catastrophe ?
As bad as it was, the alternatives are far, far worse, to Britain and to Ireland
Britain has been shedding bompanies faster than a stripper shrows her knickers into the crowd - even financial backers of Brexit are rapily moving their businesses elsewhere
One of the most persistent maritime superstitions is that of rats leaving a sinking ship
The people who are re-siting their businesses are in a win-win situation - they still profit from Britain while pouring their profits into other counties - as usual, it's us that will take the brunt of this farce - we are now - promoted to road-crash dummies
Ireland stands to have its businesses badly damaged, but most worrying, if Britain crashes out without a deal there is a serious risk that decades of negotiation to reach peace will be flushed down the pan
I have not time for any form of capitalism, but I'd rather see the world freed from it out of choice rather than necessity brought about by war and want
Despite al the EU's undeniable flaws Id rather try then that the alternative
Ther same goes fro May, by the way - would you want your daughter to bring Boris Johnson home ?
Frigged if I would
At least May recognises the dangers of crashing out "Put-Your Money-Elswhere Quickly" Moggie sees only the personal profits in leaving Europe - sod the sinking ship and all who sink in her
Jim


29 Mar 19 - 03:08 PM (#3985076)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic

So, a poorly understood plebiscite, a rotten decision, an amazing amount of obfuscation all round, there is no walking away from the brink?

That plank gotta be walked?

That bitter pill gotta be swallowed?

That last chord gotta be played even when the string is broke?

That last bit of programming gotta be included in the final product even though the commenting was unclear, the subroutine was written by that weird kid with the actual safety pin in his cheek, and the beta test indicated that many users were showing an inclination to take the DVD installment disk and use it a a frisbee for the dog?


29 Mar 19 - 05:16 PM (#3985081)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Well, at least there's a bit of good news about Brexit - we didn't leave today the way the BrexShit-lemmings had hoped. With any luck, sanity will prevail and the whole lunatic escapade will be kicked into touch for good.


29 Mar 19 - 05:58 PM (#3985084)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

It's 11pm in three minutes. I'm indulging in a very large celebratory glug of EU wine at that instant...


29 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM (#3985085)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

*GLUG*


29 Mar 19 - 06:02 PM (#3985086)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-(


30 Mar 19 - 02:23 AM (#3985114)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-("
Sorry 'bout that Steve
I was indulging in a large celebratory glug of English beer which, unfortunately, can only be got in bottles here - god - how I miss Young's Ordinary !!!
Jim


30 Mar 19 - 03:34 AM (#3985118)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Remain MP Dominic Grieve suffers no confidence vote from his local constituency party.
Colleagues of the Conservative MP and former minister have branded the vote in his constituency as "disgraceful". The more sensible would see it as a payback.
I wonder how many others face de-selection on both sides of the house. Treachery brings it's own rewards!
Now the real battle begins.


30 Mar 19 - 03:42 AM (#3985120)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The game is far from over. First the House has to agree on something, then they have to find a way of getting the PM to put that forward. Suppose, for the sake of argument they agree on some form of customs union. Teresa May takes that back to the EU and says that is the will of the House, and the EU grants a year's extension. May resigns and let's say Rabb becomes PM.

So we move from what Leavers claim is a Remainer trying to negotiate Leave, to a hard line ERG PM trying to negotiate a close union. I can see that working well.


30 Mar 19 - 03:56 AM (#3985123)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Remain MP Dominic Grieve suffers no confidence vote from his local constituency party

Dominic Grieve has shown himself to be a very measured and thoughtful MP. I am 100% certain he considered that he might be deselected and acted as he did fully aware of that possibility.

I know it is hard to admit that some people are not wholly driven by self-interest, but they do exist.


30 Mar 19 - 04:02 AM (#3985125)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

But only when they agree with you?


30 Mar 19 - 04:31 AM (#3985129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

No, there are plenty throughout history and quite a few I have known personally.

I have told a story before in other contexts about one of my supervisors who was offered a position as general manager of a company, which was a very significant promotion. The offer included a copy of the assessment criteria so he went through it answering them not as he felt, but giving what he believed the answers they would most want, then looked at them and said to himself "Is that the sort of person I want to be?" He decided it wasn't, so turned it down without formally applying.

I find that admirable, whether or not I think he would have made an excellent general manager (which he would have, in my opinion.) I regret 'the waste' of his talent, but not his determination to be true to his own standards.


30 Mar 19 - 01:23 PM (#3985138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I know it is hard to admit that some people are not wholly driven by self-interest, but they do exist."
You can immediately spot the self interest crowd by whether or not they are likely to lose money out of the move - most of us are, those in the position to, like Dyson and Rees Mogg can push Brexit through and do a runner with teir investments - as both have

I always find it fascinating why Brexiteers refuse to respond to this fact (I refuse to believe all of them are lemmings by instinct)
Another fact being studiously ignored

The leaver's policy has now become perfectly clear - leave whatever the consequences and when the shit starts flying, blame the people for making the wrong decision


IGNORE THE FACTS AND BLAME THE PEOPLE POLICY
Jim Carroll


30 Mar 19 - 05:09 PM (#3985163)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The leftards response to Dominic Grieve being held to account by his constituency party as exemplified by Phil Wilson who said the vote was "ridiculous", adding: "I'm not of the same politics as Grieve but to deselect him as a Conservative candidate is to diminish politics, see an end to political integrity and deprive politics of a sincere and thoughtful practitioner."

Grieve’s arrogance was that he thought he could shift from promising his members – in writing – that he would respect the outcome of the referendum, to leading the efforts to thwart Brexit, without cost. Breaking your word to voters, particularly the ones who get out the vote for you, is risky.

or as another wit says:Dominic Grieve said in the Commons a few days ago he had never been so ashamed to be a Tory.

Last night, his local Conservative party voted that they were ashamed to have Dominic Grieve as their MP.

Should be the quickest case ever through the divorce courts if both sides are that fed up with one another !!


Douglas Carswell states it very well:

“If Dom Grieve is a brilliant MP like other MPs are claiming, he’d have no qualms about calling a snap by election and getting a mandate directly from his electorate. You’ve only got to put it like that to realise that he’s just another safe seat MP with tenure."

It begins to look as though we have an entire party(/parliament) that believes it can sit in "tenure".
If nothing else, the Brexit vote has exposed this perilous state, and it can’t be sustained.


30 Mar 19 - 05:54 PM (#3985173)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

There is a story in the Guardian that sounds like could reach a new crescendo in absurdity, naturally going back to Cameron. It seems like one of May's ideas is to call a snap election to prevent a no deal. But to do that she needs a two-thirds majority in the house and there are sufficient no-deals to make that very risky, since they would far rather stay in government with a Brexiteer at the helm. Why risk a Corbyn government ?

So her only option would be to call a no confidence vote in herself and her own government since that only requires a simple majority, not a two-thirds one. When she call it, to maximise the chances of losing (ie getting what she wants) she and her loyalists would have to declare themselves incompitent. But since the rest of the Tories would still not want to risk losing their seat she could even lose that.

And so we end up with the same PM and government even though she and many of them say they are incompetent....


30 Mar 19 - 06:19 PM (#3985180)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

So it appears that Teresa May wants a forth bite of the cherry, despite her 'deal' having been suffered the largest defeat in the history of Parliament.

I am sure I am not alone in finding this more than a little incongruous when she will not allow the public even a second bite at the cherry.

Yet another example of one law for us and another for them.


30 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM (#3985183)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Results for: Do you think parliament should accept or reject the proposal that the UK revokes Article 50 and remains in the EU?
Fieldwork end date
Pollster        27 March 2019
Poll by Sky Data
Accept        37%
Reject               41%
Don't know        22%


31 Mar 19 - 02:48 AM (#3985206)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

What has become totally clear from the latest statements by politicians is that they are putting into place a plan that if/when Britain leaves the EU, everything that will inevitably go wrong will be put squarely at the feet of the General public "We only did what you told us to do"
Of course they will take the credit if things aren't as bad as is predicted.
The constant claim that the only democratic thing is to go plunging over the cliff - "the people's choice" has become a solid part of the creation of that 'Get out of Jail Free' card'
The people will not only be the victims of this lemming-leap, but the cause of it
Jim Carroll


31 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM (#3985207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

That is an interesting set of poll results. I can't find the details but looking at other polls the margin of error is around 2% for other sky polls, so the option of revoking is well within shouting distance of continuing with either a deal or no-deal. The very large unknowns makes thie actual wishes indecipherable.

. I believe it would be perfectly possible to get a huge vote in favour of revocation by preceding the survey with an accurate statement like this:

We are nearing completion of the first phase of the Brexit negotiations, the withdrawal agreement. The next phase will involve negotiating our continuing relationship with the EU and other countries. Such negotiations have typically taken seven years or more, and will be unavoidable for either deal or no-deal.


31 Mar 19 - 03:00 AM (#3985209)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I'll put that a different way. The one thing the general public is absolutely clear about is that most want he media to stop talking about Brexit all the time. Only revocation achieves this. (OK, it may take a month or two to fall off the news but not years or decades like either deal or no-deal)


31 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM (#3985212)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"The one thing the general public is absolutely clear about is that most want he media to stop talking about Brexit all the time."
Surely the most dangerous aspect of this whole dirty business is that it was pushed though on a single issue - control of immigration
If the subject is re-voted on without open discussion on all the aspects of leaving the public will be no clearer than they are now - an extremely dangerous position to be in
It is very significant that two of the main speakers at Friday's protest demonstration were Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson and several of the demonstrators, when asked where they got their information from replied, from Robinson's website
Scum like this pair need to be taken out of this debate - both have infringed British law in spirit - one has been prosecuted for doing so
Jim Carroll


31 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM (#3985214)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Channel 4 has had to apologise because Jon Snow remarked that the pro-Brexit demonstrations that he had ‘never seen so many white people.' The channel clarified in its apology that "Jon has covered major events such as this over a long career and this was a spontaneous comment reflecting his observation that in a London demonstration of that size, ethnic minorities seemed to be significantly under-represented."

It will be interesting to see if the charge of under-representation is challenged in its turn. I would guess not.


31 Mar 19 - 04:34 AM (#3985215)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Surely the most dangerous aspect of this whole dirty business is that it was pushed though on a single issue - control of immigration

I am sure we would all like to see some proof to substantiate such an absurd statement. More once upon a time nonsense

Scum like this pair need to be taken out of this debate -

scum definition: 1. a layer of unpleasant or unwanted material that has formed on the top of a liquid:

The sort of thing you find floating on top of a bog. Now what does that remind me of?


31 Mar 19 - 05:07 AM (#3985216)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

A racist outed already and I've not had breakfast yet
It's gonna be a great day
Jim Carroll


31 Mar 19 - 06:08 AM (#3985221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

An outbreak of racism by a Brexit supporter denying that racism has anything to do with Brexit - you couldn't make it up !!!
Someone needs to tell Robinson or Farage that their plant needs watering
Jim Carroll


31 Mar 19 - 07:13 AM (#3985228)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

It seems that this disaster of a prime minister is trying again to bully her deal through, this time by insinuating that she might call an election if she doesn't succeed. Well that'll be another Commons vote she'll lose if she tries that one on. She needs a two-thirds majority before she can call an election. Labour may say yes but a huge wodge of Tories and the breakaway group will say no. I think an election would be a terrible idea. Assuming that it would happen during a longer extension, it would be fought on a single issue. Both major parties' hands would be tied in the campaign for fear of alienating the public via any sniff of a suggestion that "democracy is being betrayed" or " the will of the people is being ignored." It would quite likely give us another hung parliament and, worse still, as far as brexit is concerned we'd be back to square one. I think the Labour leadership know this, and have only been bellyaching for an election from the luxurious position of knowing that she can't or won't call one. It can hardly be said that Labour are playing a blinder in all this.


31 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM (#3985229)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Just put it up on the other thread
The Sunday Times has erported that not only is Parliament unable to agree on a way forward but the splits in the Cabinet make it totally unable to act as a Governing body
Next step - send in the army to Govern Britain
Jim


31 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM (#3985230)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

"We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."

― Konstantin Josef Jireček


31 Mar 19 - 07:31 AM (#3985231)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"It can hardly be said that Labour are playing a blinder in all this."

'All this' is the result of Conservatives, beginning with CaMoron, and ending with the bunch of scrotes in charge now, putting party before country.

They started it, they've kept everyone else out so that they could have it all their own way, so they should be left to deal alone with the results of their ill-deeds. The Labour Party should steer well clear of having any involvement whatsoever in this cataclysmic balls-up, as should all the other parties.


31 Mar 19 - 08:07 AM (#3985235)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I may be changing my mind about how well Labour are playing this. The Gateshead speech where Corbyn was emphasising all the other things that matter apart from Brexit is not a bad foundation for a potential manifesto. That the Tories own the chaos of Brexit and Labour is focusing on job security, education, the NHS and other bread-and-butter issues could be a good position to be in.


31 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM (#3985237)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"I may be changing my mind about how well Labour are playing this."
I said some time ago that Corbyn was either attempting to appease his own Brexiteers to keep his supporters on top or was dithering - my continuing faith in him depended on which was
My hope is that you are right - we don't want another Tory party that calls itself 'Labour'
Jim


31 Mar 19 - 11:38 AM (#3985252)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"I may be changing my mind about how well Labour are playing this. The Gateshead speech where Corbyn was emphasising all the other things that matter apart from Brexit is not a bad foundation for a potential manifesto. That the Tories own the chaos of Brexit and Labour is focusing on job security, education, the NHS and other bread-and-butter issues could be a good position to be in."

Right on the nail, DMcG. Couldn't agree more.


31 Mar 19 - 12:01 PM (#3985253)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I hope you are right DMcG. Only time will tell but my money is currently on Corbyn.


31 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM (#3985268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I wasn't saying that Labour carry any responsibility for the farce. They (we) don't. But there has been a long-standing suspicion that Jeremy is a closet leaver who has refused to speak up for the overwhelming majority of party members who voted remain. He's made it harder for us to make the argument. Just because a large number of Labour constituencies came out for leave, it doesn't absolve him from making the case for what would be in the country's best interests, which all but the terminally insane know is for this country to remain a member of the EU. Certainly his softer brexit would be better than May's deal, but it still isn't good enough. I don't want to see political vote-saving compromises. I want to see an honest case being made for what is best for the country, and he's run scared of doing that. I'm disappointed.


31 Mar 19 - 05:29 PM (#3985271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

“But there has been a long-standing suspicion that Jeremy is a closet leaver"
If I thought there was a better choice I would have no desire to support a bunch of Capitalist states
Given the racist nature of the decision to leave,, the populist tactics which brought about that decision, the immediate spike in racism in Britain, Trump's taking heart from the Brexiteer's use of populism to take power power in the US, Peter Casey's use of populism to fight an Irish Presidential election, the rise of extremist right wing parties based on destroying the EU.... I don;'t thing there is a workable alternative
Better the devil you have a say in than one you don't
Jim Carroll


31 Mar 19 - 06:41 PM (#3985275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I still support Jeremy and I'm still a card-carrying member, Jim, and I know that there's no better alternative. It's one hundred percent a Tory mess. I couldn't be any clearer.


31 Mar 19 - 07:50 PM (#3985282)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

It's a funny old world isn't it? Mrs May promised us Brexit and, it would seem, can't deliver it. Corbyn always wanted to leave the EU but now as leader can't say what he personally wants and has to agree to a contrary party line. He sits on the fence and opposes anything Mrs May tries to do.

Anyone who thinks that either party comes out of this looking well is living in cloud cuckoo land. As a long time Conservative I'm all in favour of a general election as long as Mrs May is no longer our leader.


31 Mar 19 - 08:18 PM (#3985286)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

But what Mrs May is trying to do would be very damaging for the country. Every economist, including the ones advising the government, have said as much. And I challenge you to tell me what, post-election, whatever the outcome, would happen next. Whether it would be any better than what we have now.


31 Mar 19 - 09:41 PM (#3985291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

You missed out, in parenthesis, 'Who is against Brexit', as you are. And no vicious personal insults. Steve you are letting your standards slip.


01 Apr 19 - 03:28 AM (#3985300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"And no vicious personal insults"
Isn't contanly ignoring what people have to say "insulting"
You never reply to what has been put up - not ever
It seems some people appear to regard argument as insult
Jim Carroll


01 Apr 19 - 03:42 AM (#3985303)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

More accurate than that, stanron, would be to put "except Prof Minford and his team" in parentheses. Unless you can name some economists not associated in any way with Minford? Even Minford accepts that the UK farming and industrial sectors could be severely damaged, but sees this as a rebalancing between producers and consumers.   I think even so most people would regard a severe shrinkage of those sectors as "very damaging for the country". (Certainly, if we came under sort of sanctions in the future for whatever reason, our ability to withstand them would be severely hampered. That ability to be independent is a form of sovereignty, by the way.)


01 Apr 19 - 04:07 AM (#3985307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Nigel and I have been comparing predictions, which I summarised as

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing.


Since it is now 1st April, I thought I would check up where we were. I think we will all agree that my half was right: we are still trying to decide what to do. However, it turns out I don't have Nigel's prediction quite right. What he said was:

====
Subject: RE: BS: Predictions for the coming new year
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:46 PM

UK will leave EU on WTO terms.

====
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)

====
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM

Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit.
Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?
====


Read all that very carefully, and we can see Nigel never quite predicted we would leave on 29th March...


01 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM (#3985309)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"All this from the plastic paddy"
Can the mods please do soething with these persistent racist attacks on forum members ?
Jim Carroll


01 Apr 19 - 05:38 AM (#3985313)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

On second thoughts
Parhaps somebody who objects to being accused of racism using terms like "plasic Paddy" and who objects to being called a ""Little Englander" by suggesting that if you don't live in England you have no right to an opinion on what goes on there, is in need of help rather than disciplining   
You really couldn't make this up if you were script-writing for Spitting Image
Jim Carroll


01 Apr 19 - 12:16 PM (#3985361)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I knew some Brexiteer would immediately yelp about the motions Bercow selected, so I was hardly surprised when Farage tweeted:


The 4 motions Bercow has just selected for votes tonight are all Remain and all continue uncontrolled free movement.


Really not keen on Parliament having control, is he?


01 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM (#3985364)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?


01 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM (#3985366)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Farage is wrong as usual. The only one of those motions which would continue free movement, not uncontrolled of course, it never has been uncontrolled, is the Boles motion. Clarke's customs union would not. Kyle's motion would allow a vote on it. And Cherry's would just prevent an utter catastrophe.

And in any case, free movement is a massive boon for the people, particularly the young and ambitious people, of the UK.


01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM (#3985373)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?"
A Tory who thinks he is Donald Trump methinks
Jim Carroll


01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM (#3985374)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?"
A Tory who thinks he is Donald Trump methinks
Jim Carroll


01 Apr 19 - 01:48 PM (#3985383)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?

The government cannot resubmit motions a second time however those that have hijacked the Parliamentary process merely have to change the name of the person submitting the motion in order to submit it times without measure.
The crowning insult is grubby little corbyn 3 line whipping for free movement despite the total opposite on their election manifesto.


01 Apr 19 - 01:51 PM (#3985385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

John Bercow has cooked up yet another Speaker’s Stitch-up Special with his selections for tonight’s second batch of indicative votes tonight. Bercow selected only four Remainer motions for MPs to vote on tonight. They are more or less identical to the ones which were all rejected just five days ago:

    C (Clarke) – Customs Union – already rejected 272-264
    D (Boles) – Common Market 2.0 – already rejected 283-188
    E (Kyle) – Second referendum – already rejected 295-268
    G (Cherry) – Revoke Article 50 – already rejected 293-184

Bercow refused to allow any Brexiteer motions including John Baron’s Motion A on a unilateral right of exit from the backstop. Despite this previously securing a majority in the Commons in the form of the Brady Amendment.


01 Apr 19 - 02:09 PM (#3985387)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

From The Sunday Times and The New Law Journal today......

"David Wolchover sets out why moves are afoot to prosecute the prime minister for misconduct in public office

On Friday 22 March Oxford University Professor of Physics Joshua Silver and I formally asked Westminster Magistrates' Court for a summons against the prime minister alleging misconduct in public office, a crime under common law carrying a maximum of life imprisonment. The application was adjourned to April 9 for a full oral hearing before the Deputy Senior District Judge for England and Wales.

This is no stunt. Nobody is above the law, least of all high officers of state administering major government business. Although the allegation concerns the activation of Article 50 on 29 March 2017, the conclusive evidence only surfaced in January, as I recently revealed in New Law Journal ('Did activating Article 50 constitute an indictable offence?' 12 March 2019).

Our case essentially hinges on the statutory basis of the European Referendum 2016. As the Supreme Court affirmed in the landmark Miller decision it was no more than 'advisory,' the commons briefing paper on the EU Referendum Bill having explained that the proposed ballot was of a 'type . . . known as pre-legislative or consultative which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions.' Not only was that definition never disavowed by the Cameron Government but it was implicitly adopted by Minister for Europe David Lidington during the Commons Committee stage of the Bill. This did not deter David Cameron and his ministers from repeatedly stating that they would 'honour' the outcome. But those avowals were, as the Supreme Court further held, no more than political and were based on no legal foundation.

In the Webster case last year the Administrative Court confirmed that the EU (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017, passed in response to Miller, had delegated to the prime minister the discretionary power to make the Article 50 withdrawal decision. But that discretion was not unfettered. Since the referendum was not legally determinative of the leave/remain issue but merely advisory I would contend that the prime minister was constitutionally debarred from making the withdrawal decision exclusively on the basis of the referendum result.

Instead, she was duty bound to abide by that universal precept of rational policy-making, the obligation to scrutinise methodically all relevant and tangible factors. It's what sensible people do in their own lives. We don't buy a car simply because it's red. Good governance is no different.

But we now know that in deciding to activate Article 50 the prime minister ignored everything but the referendum outcome. Strong suspicions about this were provoked by the government's vacillations in Parliament over the impact assessments and were finally confirmed in the response by the Cabinet Office on January 23 to a Freedom of Information request by Action for Europe's Richard Bird.

As I argued in my New Law Journal article, the democratic imperative was not satisfied simply by implementing the statistically insignificant slight tilt towards leave. What counts is the constitutional imperative of rationally examining all relevant considerations. Constitutional imperatives are legal ones. They are the law and without the rule of law, democracy is meaningless. The prime minister deliberately flouted her constitutional obligations. With potentially disastrous consequences she broke the law.

It might be countered that the prime minister must have assimilated all the leave/remain arguments put forward during the referendum campaign and the passage of the EU (Notice of Withdrawal) Bill. But exposure to tendentious, if not mendacious, assertions advanced in the emotionally charged context of the debate on whether to continue our membership of the EU can hardly equate to dispassionate scrutiny of expert, systematically researched and detailed multi-disciplinary impact predictions. We now know that no such assessments were undertaken until those which were commissioned by the Department for Exiting the EU at the earliest in late 2017. There were no formal consultations outside Parliament and of course no public inquiry has ever been held.

It is inconceivable that Mrs May was on a frolic of her own when she activated Article 50. She was plainly supported and encouraged by her cabinet colleagues and since it may be comfortably assumed that they too had no regard for any factors apart from the referendum outcome it can be inferred that to a man and woman they were aiding and abetting her. No doubt this will be confirmed by cabinet minutes to which as yet the public are not privy. But there can be no safety in numbers. Collective responsibility will not exculpate any one of them, whether the prime minister or her colleagues.

This brings us to the impending Conservative leadership contest. If her successor was in the cabinet on the fatal date it may be appropriate to add that individual to the indictment. In the next few days we shall therefore be considering for the time-being a postponement of our application.

David Wolchover is a barrister at Ridgeway Chambers and Article6Law, 2 King's Bench Walk."


01 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM (#3985393)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Britain has been without an effective gobvenment for some time now yet still the Brexit Braindeads talk about 'stitch-ups' un order to move things one way or the other - patriots who accuse critics of the elected government of being "traitors"
While i's comfortable to see them all running around like headless chickens it makes you wonder who's minding the store
I'm sure our patriotic friends here could tell us
Clowns all - inside and outside politics
Jim Carroll


01 Apr 19 - 02:26 PM (#3985394)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

Some people are far too gullible on All Fools Day.
The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum.

Was that long post really worth quoting?


01 Apr 19 - 02:28 PM (#3985396)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I'm pretty certain that if you could ask Bercow why he rejected the motion concerning unilaterally leaving the backstop, he would tell you that he doesn't want MPs wasting time debating a motion that would be impossible to execute. The whole point of the backstop is that any decision to leave it must be made by both sides agreeing with each other. If we could leave it without the EU's agreement it wouldn't be a backstop.


01 Apr 19 - 02:40 PM (#3985400)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Eric Bogle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzoh0e_YOiI


01 Apr 19 - 02:48 PM (#3985401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

Some people are far too gullible on All Fools Day.
The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum.

Was that long post really worth quoting?


Really? Sunday 31/3/19 sounds like yesterday to me. After all 31/3/1919 was a Monday.


01 Apr 19 - 02:50 PM (#3985402)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Was that long post really worth quoting?"
I think the answer lies in the name 'Farcebook' Nigel
Some people welcome a distraction from the daily horror of having to pick their way over the ruins of real news - keeps us from grabbing a rope and looking for a lamppost
This has got to be more and more like a daily display of nasty children throwing their toys out of their pram (nicely reflectedby the Brexiteers here
Apart from Codeword, my only pleasure in buying a newspaper is to join the newsagent in curling up over the antics of "them lot over there"
Britain has become the laughing stock of the world - even Trump is drawing a line on America's dealings if ther is a 'no deal' crashing out
When lunatics like him wash their hands of the shenanigans of the asylum things have gone badly awry
The economist who predicted that Brexit would break up the UK and destroy the economy got that one right
Must go, 'That Was the UK That Was' is on tele shortly
Jim Carroll


01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM (#3985404)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Ummm... today is Monday. And when I googled The Times for Sunday 31st, I found the following:

PM could suffer a new m'luddy nose | Comment | The Sunday Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/.../pm-could-suffer-a-new-m-luddy-nose-znpjk2rvt

March 31 2019, 12:01am, The Sunday Times

By Roland White, www.thetimes.co.uk View Original March 31st, 2019

You wouldn't think matters could get much worse for Theresa May, but she could soon be prosecuted over Brexit. In nine days' time a judge will consider whether she should be charged with misconduct in a public office.

Professor Joshua Silver, an Oxford physicist, and barrister David Wolchover claim the government did not take proper account of impact assessments before triggering article 50. "The prime minister wilfully ignored all such assessments and wrongly made her decision exclusively on the outcome of the referendum," they say. "She deliberately broke the law, with potentially catastrophic consequences."

How apt that a physicist intervenes just as the entire Brexit process seems to be collapsing into a black hole.


01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM (#3985405)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Cross-posted with Jim


01 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM (#3985406)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

This is the link I googled into:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/pm-could-suffer-a-new-m-luddy-nose-znpjk2rvt

(Sorry, DMcG, I misinterpreted your "Monday" comment... d'oh)


01 Apr 19 - 03:11 PM (#3985407)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum."

Errrmm....no, you half-baked, nitpicking nitwit, the italicised part is from FaceBook, the plain text part was mine, and the date is 31st March, 2019 - yesterday!

Back to school, nitpicker.


01 Apr 19 - 03:14 PM (#3985408)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And remember the old adage, nitpicker - "Nobody likes a clever-shit".


01 Apr 19 - 03:26 PM (#3985410)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Having got interested in the subject now, ISO 8601:2000 defined how two digit years were interpreted, but this is no longer a standard. Excel interprets years 00-29 to be 2000-2029 by default, but this is changeable. Other systems use a different 'change over point'. IBM use 40 so 00-39 are interpreted as 2000-2039 and 40-99 as 1940-1999.   

I have not found a system that thinks 19 represents 1919 yet, and don't think it worth exploring further.


01 Apr 19 - 04:27 PM (#3985416)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

but 31/3/19... suggests that something has been left out after the '19' making it a date in the twentieth century.
A standardised form for dates would be useful, if people kept to it.


01 Apr 19 - 04:32 PM (#3985417)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Thanks DMcG and BS, but I suggest you don't waste time on answering our nitpicker friend. In DD/MM/YY date format, it's a given that the third element refers to the current century, any fule no that...


01 Apr 19 - 04:35 PM (#3985418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

...apart from, apparently, our nitpicker-imbecile friend.

Good old Musket used to have a two-word expression that he used to describe idiots, which he abbreviated to 'TC'. Appropriate for our nitpicker, methinks.


01 Apr 19 - 04:40 PM (#3985420)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

And another adage the nitpicker would do well to keep in mind...."When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". (WPA (Will) Rogers).


01 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM (#3985421)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

John Bercow aka ‘Mr Squeaker’?

    He is the very model of a modern minor genital,
    His exclamations patronising, animal, imperial,
    He is the Prince of Parliament, he quotes debates historical,
    From Erskine May to made-up way, in order quite dishonourable.

..With information too on matters constitutional,
    His fabrication aptitude is very close to criminal,
    In short in matters statesmanlike, both legally and practical,
    He occupies a swamp of bilge and is in fact piratical.

....with abject apologies to Gilbert and Sullivan


01 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM (#3985445)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well, after today anything that Parliament/government can desperately scrabble together as a "compromise" is going to look like a bodge. We need breathing space.


02 Apr 19 - 02:44 AM (#3985466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

And they refuse the people a second vote !!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll


02 Apr 19 - 02:51 AM (#3985467)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Thanks DMcG and BS, but I suggest you don't waste time on answering our nitpicker friend

Oh, I wasn't. I am afraid when someone has the choice of admitting they made a mistake and instead works hard to explain how it must be someone else in error however foolish it makes them look, it is obvious that any further discussion on the point is futile.


No, I was interested in whether there actually are any international standards for interpreting two digit years. That was completely independent to discussing the specific example.   In short, there isn't. unless the contest is 100% clear. In a book talking about the Napoleonic Wars, for example, the century would be clearly understood in most cases.


02 Apr 19 - 03:02 AM (#3985468)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

On the question of 'fudge': I am not certain. The distinction between a fudge and a compromise, in my interpretation, is that a fudge is a phrase or arrangement where the two sides can interpret it differently, and I am not at all sure there is scope for that, because whatever we end up with will be international law.

Since Labour whipped for three of the options, and the rest of the opposition was broadly in line, I see very little scope for changing the numbers on the opposition benches: merging some motions is very unlikely to achieve anything in itself. So I think Nick Boles was right to blame the Conservatives for not being prepared to compromise. To clarify, I do not mean those like the ERG, but any Conservative MP who voted against a no-deal, but also against any way to ensure that.


02 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM (#3985469)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"Oh, I wasn't. I am afraid when someone has the choice of admitting they made a mistake and instead works hard to explain how it must be someone else in error however foolish it makes them look, it is obvious that any further discussion on the point is futile."

Yep, I completely agree. Sadly, some people's need to 'win' over-rides everything else, so they indulge in picking smaller and smaller nits, and thus making themselves appear increasingly ridiculous.

"No, I was interested in whether there actually are any international standards for interpreting two digit years. That was completely independent to discussing the specific example.   In short, there isn't. unless the contest is 100% clear. In a book talking about the Napoleonic Wars, for example, the century would be clearly understood in most cases."

But there is something called 'common sense', which the vast majority of us here have, with one or two notable, nit-picking exceptions.


02 Apr 19 - 03:22 AM (#3985471)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

But there is something called 'common sense', which the vast majority of us here have

Yes indeed. And Excel's algorithm (for example), of treating 00-29 as 2000-2029 and 30-99 as 1930-1999 is an attempt to implement that common sense interpretation.


02 Apr 19 - 03:44 AM (#3985473)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

I guess that will be a rolling date in the algorithm. Pretty much like the date for brexit :-)


02 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM (#3985475)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I>And they refuse the people a second vote !!!!!!!!

A rather silly remark. If the first vote of the people in the recent referendum is ignored, what notice would be taken of a second?

In a democracy the winner wins(or is supposed to) Why do leftards require that this very simple concept be explained to them repeatedly.

Does their socialist sense of entitlement make them think the majority csn be ignored and over ridden? Their constant whining is getting tiresome.

This is very similar to democrats trying to depose the President on all sorts of trumped up charges.


02 Apr 19 - 04:02 AM (#3985477)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

"A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy"
Liam Fox, former Brexit Secretary, 2012.

Such a simple, easily understood concept (unless you happen to be a Right-Wing Extremist, apparently).


02 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM (#3985478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Correction - the quote was from another rabid BrexShiteer, David Davis, not Liam Fox. But it's still just as ironic, bearing in mind that Right Wing Extremist BrexShiteers are apparently completely incapable of understanding such a simple concept.


02 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM (#3985479)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

The government has shown without a vestige of doubt that they are totally incapable of Governing
The have now done the lot - bullied, bribed sectarian politicians, passed the the buck onto others for what it their problem, driven panicking industries out of Britain, fragmented their own party, spiked racism, set the British People one against the other, destabilised the future of Britain for decades to come.... and they are still no clearer on where Britain should go from here
A rudderless nation is detrimental, not only to itself but to the well-being of the planet in the current situation
These are unnecessarily dangerous times and these people are more concerned about their own careers and ambitions than they are of the people who put them into office   
Time to f... them off out of it

"A rather silly remark."
You have already made your name as a web creeper - can you stop stalking me please ?
If you have anything intelligent to say and can manage it without the usual Trump-like racist abuse, say it - not that you'll get a response most o us have become sick to death of your behaviour

Good to see that you've leapt out of yet another closet and added 'supporter of a racist, misogynist, unstable, and traitorous world leader to your CV'
You're going to need a carpenter to replace those worn-out hinges
Jim Carroll


02 Apr 19 - 04:22 AM (#3985481)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Jim, I don't known how many more times or in how many different ways we can we can say ignore him. You have nothing to prove. It is obvious what he is and why he does it but you keep taking the bait.


02 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM (#3985482)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

No bait
He needs to stop or be stopped, his persistent behaviour is intolerable; it's totally beyond be why he should be allowed to continue
People have been thrown off this forum for far less - persistent personally aimed racial abuse seems more than enough to me
Jim


02 Apr 19 - 05:03 AM (#3985483)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Mudcat advice on how to deal with trolls.


02 Apr 19 - 05:12 AM (#3985484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Good to see that you've leapt out of yet another closet and added 'supporter of a racist, misogynist, unstable, and traitorous world leader to your CV'

little jimmie the "I Insult no one" plastic paddy publicly displaying his mendacity for all the world to see.
You could not make it up!(unlike the scouser-who makes up everything)

persistent personally aimed racial abuse seems more than enough to me
Says the idiot that repeatedly labels the valiant eminently sensible Brexiteers as racist little englanders.

Carrol if you wish to continually act as a pig ignorant abusive bigot you can hardly bleat when these self evident truths are pointed out to you. It is hardly my fault that you are have insufficient mental capacity to see this. It is you that is the mental midget. as you demonstrate time after time. Have you considered remedial classes? I am told they help!.


02 Apr 19 - 05:22 AM (#3985485)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I said bodge, DMcG, not fudge.

I'm becoming more certain by the day that remain would lose another referendum. Too few people have changed their minds and there will be a backlash from indignant people who might be remain-minded but who would see another vote as being an insult to democracy. There would also be a lot of abstaining or just not bothering. And the leave campaign would be toxic. That worked last time and they would hold even more populist cards this time. An even more useless ploy would be a snap election. It would solve absolutely nothing.


02 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM (#3985486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

An even more useless ploy would be a snap election. It would solve absolutely nothing.

I am coming to the point of view that an election is precisely what is required. The present nest of vipers in the commons need to be reminded forcefully that the electorate expects them to honour their promises.
The referendum result requires implementation, otherwise democracy is destroyed and the executive betrays the trust of the people.
   A reset is the only way forward.
Farage for PM and Rees Mogg as foreign secretary would make me very happy.

The war of Independance in America was fought on the basis of no taxation without representation. Therefore I would argue for as long as we make payments to the EU we maintain our seats in the EU parliament. To act in any other way smacks of reparations for a war we have not lost. Mays withdrawal treaty suffers from the same problem and must not stand.


02 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM (#3985488)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I said bodge, DMcG, not fudge.

My mistake, sorry.

You may well be right about a second referendum. The more it is seen as rerun of the first, rather than a different question, the more open it is to manipulation. That is one reason I have always thought this really needs to be resolved in Parliament, but they appear unwilling to do so. I doubt if a general election will help either. Labour have kept a good focus on things that really matter to people - jobs, education, the NHS - but as Larkin would say the toad Brexit squats on their manifesto too, and I see no good way round that.


02 Apr 19 - 05:51 AM (#3985489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

In an impassioned speech, Ms Widdecombe said: “We’ve got the worst Prime Minister since Anthony Eden.

“We’ve got the worst leader of the opposition in the entire history of the Labour party.

“And we’ve got the worst Parliament since Oliver Cromwell.”

I agree!


02 Apr 19 - 05:58 AM (#3985490)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Mudcat advice on how to deal with trolls."
There is also instruction on being abusive Dave
Antway - had my rant on this perticuar Trump/troll for the day - "tomorrow is another day"

A Civil Rights Group in Northern Ireland has now drawn attention to Northern Ireland born citizens living in the Republic and how Brexit's Brave New World will affect their rights and the progress of The Belfast agreement and the Peace Process

Steve,
Don't agree with your take on a second vote
A survey has already indicated that the Remainers have a clear guarantee - if this is not enough, surely none of those who couldn't ae their minds up to vote the first time will not be stupid enough to stay at home after these years long displays of ineptitude
In a worse-case scenario - if the second vote was to leave, at least there would be no doubt of that fact
The lying excuse that a second vote would divide the country is hypocritical, undemocratic politicking - it would do just the opposite
May has suggested that the British people are incapable of accepting a Democratically arrived at decision with her insulting suggestion
I've never know a revolt in Britain against a General Election result - has anybody ??
Jim Carroll


02 Apr 19 - 06:09 AM (#3985491)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

obviously all very depressing. at no point has any conservative politician ever had the courage to stand up to the nicotine-stained fascist man frog or his buddies in the more weird yet dangerous wing of the party. (and labour aren't much better)or the DUP - the idea that these tiny groups of very unpleasant and regressive people are driving the political agenda and causing immense division and conflict in our society is incredible. when farage and his thuggish supporters talk about 'betrayal' and 'treachery' they are deliberately intimidating our mps and all of us who dare to disagree or even attempt to put a bit of nuance into the debate. their like should be prosecuted for hate crimes - and murder in the case of Jo Cox. while in jail they could be forced to watch re-runs of the opening ceremony of the london olympics to remind them of the sort of country that the majority of us would prefer. and made aware that this is the country that raised them - not the grubby, wee bitter, little england with it's racism, greed,hunting and their sneering contempt of all who try to live in a happier, more positive, way.


02 Apr 19 - 06:14 AM (#3985492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Amen, Pete.

Ain't gonna happen though, no matter how hard we hope for it. Their tax-dodges take priority over everyone else's best interests.


02 Apr 19 - 07:03 AM (#3985498)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

And amen John, Pete and DMcG...

Ann Widdecombe is pure pantomime, a plight of her own making. I saw her last night and I couldn't help thinking of Cissie and Ada but without the laughs. Strike me down...


02 Apr 19 - 07:05 AM (#3985499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

A survey has already indicated that the Remainers have a clear guarantee>/I>

A clear guarantee of what?   I do like a reasoned discussion!


02 Apr 19 - 07:27 AM (#3985505)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

"Steve,
Don't agree with your take on a second vote
A survey has already indicated that the Remainers have a clear guarantee - if this is not enough, surely none of those who couldn't ae their minds up to vote the first time will not be stupid enough to stay at home after these years long displays of ineptitude..."

Well a survey I read about just yesterday (can't remember for the life of me where I read about it) suggested that remain/leave was at 54%/46% with a lot of undecideds (who weren't included in the totting up). That isn't comfortable at all, I don't think. Many remainers were reluctant remainers, and a good number would see another vote (incorrectly) as an affront to democracy. They might either abstain or even vote leave next time round. On the other hand, I should think that just about every leave voter, and more, would be indignant enough to turn out again next time round. And the leave campaign would be the joker in the pack. You can just see it now: democracy betrayed, the will of the people thwarted...all bollocks, but incredibly hard to counteract.

I wouldn't argue against another vote on these grounds just because I think the result would be the wrong one, but, let's face it, whatever the result it would be another close-run thing, and a narrow remain victory would foment huge trouble. On top of that, I can't bring myself ever to want any referendum about anything at all.


02 Apr 19 - 08:17 AM (#3985507)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

New ComRes polling commissioned by Leave Means Leave yesterday has found a significant shift in favour of a No Deal Brexit, with voters agreeing with the statement “Theresa May should go back to her promise that No Deal is better than a bad deal and leave to trade on WTO rules” by 63% to 37%, excluding don’t knows. Including don’t knows, just 29% disagree with it…


02 Apr 19 - 08:22 AM (#3985508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

It seems fairly inevitable from a statement from the EU that unless the marathon 5 hour Cabinet meeting (by a Cabinet that is incapable of finding its own arse with both hands) reaches a decision today, the two alternatives are to crash out or put Brexit on yet another long finger (the latter is very unlikely, the former would be devastating for Britain and its neighbours)
Brexit has drawn out venomous rats by their swarms now, Robinson, Farage and now THESE SCUM
Bastards like these thrive on instability of the kind that Britain is now heading for
We live in dangerous times, to avoid allowing the vermin feeding on a leadership incapable of leading and a people who are rapidly reaching the point of simply not caring, something has to be done - and quick
Someone needs to re-read pre-war history
Jim


02 Apr 19 - 08:29 AM (#3985511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Oh, dear, what a leading question.

All that actually shows is that the risk of people being manipulated is indeed very high.


02 Apr 19 - 08:34 AM (#3985513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The poll above, if accurate, shows a wide divergence of the two camps compared to all other polls over the last two years.
I see we have three choices
crash out no deal
May's treaty trapping us within the EU with no representation
Have a long extension(getting more and more unlikely) and renegotiate with a brand new elected team after an inevitable election.

This is what the endless betrayal and prevarication of MPs has brought us to.

Heaping insults on brexiteers and calling them vermin just shows the total inadequacy of the remainers arguments as they continue to try to frustrate the clearly stated wishes of the majority.

When will all the whining finally stop I wonder?

Bring on the crash!


02 Apr 19 - 08:43 AM (#3985514)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

We have another choice which is to revoke article 50, and put the whole sorry episode behind us.


02 Apr 19 - 09:06 AM (#3985516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

David Carter We already have Parliament usurping the government in the Commons. Constitutionally this is new territory with zero accountability. Couple that will betrayal of article 50 and I think revolt will occur.
If legislation is forced through by an unaccountable body democracy has ceased and parliament no longer has legitimacy.
This may make remainiacs very happy but only until the unintended consequences kick in(or more likely kick off. Be very careful of whatyou wish for!


02 Apr 19 - 09:38 AM (#3985520)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"On top of that, I can't bring myself ever to want any referendum about anything at all."
Perhaps you should read how they've moved Ireland on from the first half of the 20th century by some of the progressive decisions that have been taken comparatively recently
Trusting the people really has worked a treat here as have public displays of disapproval, despite indifference and opposition on the part of politicians and parties
The rules for referenda need to be well-thought out and a block put on the use of the type of populism that gave the world Brexit and Trump - the use of 'scapegoating' needs to be outlawed
Britain allowed Farage and the now discredited Ukip to run riot a disgraced Party and a swaggering no-nothing
Not something to be proud of
The other aspect of Irish democracy that is preventing a mess like Britain has become is Proportional Representation - it is noteworthy that this was the fist think to be discarded in the creation of a sectarian State in the Northern Counties
Whatever the result of Brexit, it's going to take a long time before anybody takes British Parliamentary Politics seriously again - inside and outside the UK
A sharp cleaning out of the Augean Stables might - just - do it
Jim


02 Apr 19 - 09:38 AM (#3985521)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"On top of that, I can't bring myself ever to want any referendum about anything at all."
Perhaps you should read how they've moved Ireland on from the first half of the 20th century by some of the progressive decisions that have been taken comparatively recently
Trusting the people really has worked a treat here as have public displays of disapproval, despite indifference and opposition on the part of politicians and parties
The rules for referenda need to be well-thought out and a block put on the use of the type of populism that gave the world Brexit and Trump - the use of 'scapegoating' needs to be outlawed
Britain allowed Farage and the now discredited Ukip to run riot a disgraced Party and a swaggering no-nothing
Not something to be proud of
The other aspect of Irish democracy that is preventing a mess like Britain has become is Proportional Representation - it is noteworthy that this was the fist think to be discarded in the creation of a sectarian State in the Northern Counties
Whatever the result of Brexit, it's going to take a long time before anybody takes British Parliamentary Politics seriously again - inside and outside the UK
A sharp cleaning out of the Augean Stables might - just - do it
Jim


02 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM (#3985529)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The rules for referenda need to be well-thought out and a block put on the use of the type of populism that gave the world Brexit and Trump - the use of 'scapegoating' needs to be outlawed
Britain allowed Farage and the now discredited Ukip to run riot a disgraced Party and a swaggering no-nothing

A stunning example of a total misunderstanding of the democratic electoral process and a wilful contempt for the rule of law. What a halfwit.


02 Apr 19 - 10:39 AM (#3985533)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Rule of Law - Bingo !!!
Jim Carroll


02 Apr 19 - 10:59 AM (#3985536)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

My abject apologies fellers but a Brexiteer scurrying behind 'The Rule of Law' was really too good an opportunity to pass up
Jim


02 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM (#3985538)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

My abject apologies fellers

We need far far more grovelling off you first!

"The Prime Minister’s continental counterparts have given her just six days to make her Brexit strategy clear ahead of an emergency summit in Brussels next week. Amid fears of a no-deal Brexit, Europe has urged Mrs May to details on whether she will pursue a hard divorce or a long Article 50 extension. EU leaders’ intervention comes after another failed attempt by MPs in Westminster to build a majority for an alternative Brexit plan last night."


02 Apr 19 - 11:56 AM (#3985543)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Funny I thought she'd had almost 3 years.


02 Apr 19 - 12:23 PM (#3985548)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Funny I thought she'd had almost 3 years."
Somebody ought to get life for this criminal behaviour
Jim


02 Apr 19 - 01:17 PM (#3985559)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Bye bye treason May. Gone within the week. Connive with corbyn and destroy the tories. Election coming!


02 Apr 19 - 01:17 PM (#3985560)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

May calls for a 'National Unity' approach to Brexit and proposes a meeting with Corbyn on an agreed way forward
Talk on internal coup by the hardliners
Sounded like a wartime broadcast to me
"Westminster calling - Westminster calling"
Jim Carroll


02 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM (#3985562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Gone within a week? I think not, but on 9th we can revisit your prediction. Remember the EU summit is on the 10th.


02 Apr 19 - 02:52 PM (#3985571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

TOMMY ROBINSON CALLING - TOMMY ROBINSON CALLING
Jim Carroll


02 Apr 19 - 04:18 PM (#3985575)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

'Treason May' eh.

What happened to we must be respectful to our politicans?


02 Apr 19 - 04:29 PM (#3985579)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Mrs May further angered the Tory backbenchers by stating her intentions to work with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to “try to agree a plan". Mr Rees-Mogg slammed Mrs May’s strategy to work with ”a known Marxist” and insisted the public “did not vote for a Corbyn-May coalition Government”. European Research Group chairman also warned the Prime Minister history did not show success for political leaders who tried to get policy through the Commons "on the back of Opposition votes". The leading Brexiteer added this approach is “deeply unsatisfactory” and is “not in the interests of the country”.

Colluding with commie corbyn is going to end in tears for the tories.

The plot thickens. They are setting the stage where each can blame the other for the betrayal of brexit.


02 Apr 19 - 06:46 PM (#3985588)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Oooh, I believe a cage has been rattled!!


02 Apr 19 - 07:30 PM (#3985597)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Just ignore or talk past the daft bugger, Raggytash.


03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM (#3985633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Oooh, I believe a cage has been rattled!!"
Apparently so
This is the feller who claims it's Anglophobic to critcise British politicians and that you have to apply for a visa if you wish to do so
I've changed my mind about wanting him gone - I think we need an example of what's happening to Britain
Raggy's right, of course - 'hands off cocks and on with your socks' - a new day dawns

Just received a long document from Google explaining the changes to their relationship with those living outside the U.K. don't understand a word of it, but I suppose I shall when I buy anything on line
Off for the paper later - can't wait for my morning laugh-in with the local farmers
Jim


03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM (#3985634)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

If she’d made BrexShit a cross-party project three years ago, we wouldn’t be in this disastrous dung-heap, and the laughing-stock of the rest of the world, that we are now.

But, of course, she had instructions from others - far wealthier, and thus, far more powerful than her - to obey, which meant she had to keep everyone else, including most of her own government, out of it.


03 Apr 19 - 03:34 AM (#3985636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

I have some sympathy for the right wing press who may either have to accept the demon Corbyn as a saviour, or say the Brexit he has helped negotiate is so bad you should vote remain in a deal/remain referendum.

Not a lot of sympathy, of course.


03 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM (#3985637)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Tread carefully, Jeremy. There's a trap afoot.


03 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM (#3985639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The Compassionate Fool


03 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM (#3985640)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Ha, that's brilliant! He's had plenty of people ringing alarm bells. As Polly Toynbee was saying this morning, Brexit is purely a Tory mess and Jeremy must ensure that Labour doesn't get tainted by it.


03 Apr 19 - 07:47 AM (#3985641)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Wow, Jim. Saving that. (Pity it's written by someone called Cameron.)


03 Apr 19 - 07:48 AM (#3985642)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Whoa, sorry! I should be thanking DMcG


03 Apr 19 - 08:57 AM (#3985644)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Carry on mayhem! There is no need to make it up!


03 Apr 19 - 09:11 AM (#3985646)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Tread carefully, Jeremy. There's a trap afoot."
Not sure there's a trap - traps take planning and the Tory's skill at that political art has become fairly obvious
I have more faith in Corbyn to avoid aligning himself with these morons than I would have in New Belabour and I don't see him as a career politician
He needs to remember that The Irish Labour Party were virtually wiped out for taking part in a coalition with rats in trouble
At least he hasn't used the crisis the Tories and Ukip have created for party-political advantage (never thought I'd say that) - the UK needs some form of co-operation to remove the wedge that has been driven between the British people
A divided country will inevitably lead to bloodshed
Jim


03 Apr 19 - 09:24 AM (#3985648)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog

Jim posts: "the UK needs some form of co-operation to remove the wedge that has been driven between the British people"

What wedge is this? Between those who want to remain and those who want to leave the EU?

Jim posts: "A divided country will inevitably lead to bloodshed"
I get fed up with the politicians and political commentators who say this sort of thing. It just seems like stirring to me. The country is divided and it seems extremely unlikely that that will change in the foreseeable future.

I voted remain but was not surprised by the result. I thought it would be close and it was. I have little doubt that if we had another referendum the result would be close again.


03 Apr 19 - 09:41 AM (#3985652)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

If you have another referendum why would you expect anybody to abide by the result? People who voted to leave would expect their vote to be ignored again and people who voted to remain would just ignore the result again. Nothing would be settled. It would be a totally worthless waste of money and time. Oh, but hang on! This is what Labour does. It wastes money and time. No surprise there then.


03 Apr 19 - 10:10 AM (#3985655)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"What wedge is this? Between those who want to remain and those who want to leave the EU? "
Brexit was based on putting the blame for Britain's increasing problems on the number of foreigners coming in, which automatically had repercussions on British citizens from other ethnic backgrounds - the beginning of a wedge
The fact that the majority was as small as it was created an almost fifty-fifty division among those who voted, leaving those who didn't to stand and watch, I have little doubt, first in bewilderment, then in growing horror
The vicious animosity displayed by the leavers, hate mail, threats of recrimination... were outlined in an article in yesterday's Times by a non political remainer describing the behaviour of former friends and neighbours
None of this would have happened if Brexit had been planned

"I get fed up with the politicians and political commentators who say this sort of thing. "
And I get fed up with people who cant see what's under theirnoses
Before the echoes of the referendum result had died down, racist incidents, including acts of violence, had begun - these have continued way past the highest number ever recorded in British history

There you go - Can't blue clickie
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html

Jo Cox's widower, nice man as he appears to be, denied any connection between the murder of his wife and Brexit - I wonder would that still be his opinion ?

The 'White Jihadist' Nazi scum are about to be tried for plotting to murder a woman Labour MP -
Racist groups like any of Tommy Robinson's present or former parties you care to name, are becoming more active (it's no coincidence that Robinson was one of those who gave limited support to Brievik)
Populism that sold Brexit is based on prejudice, which in its turn, gives rise to racial and cultural tension, which, in its turn inevitably leads to violence
That train has already left the British station
Jim Carroll


03 Apr 19 - 10:13 AM (#3985656)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Stanron has already had his answer - many times but as he appears to make a point of ignoring everything anybody says, it seems a waste of energy to try again
Jim


03 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM (#3985658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

Stanron wrote: No surprise there then.


03 Apr 19 - 10:33 AM (#3985662)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Stanron wrote: No surprise there then."
That's what I meant
Jim Carroll


03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM (#3985664)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

JAMES - DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!

FFS, you’ve got the pair of them on your case, playing you like an old fiddle now - how many more bloody times do you need to be told?


03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM (#3985665)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Now cross-party talks are under way, it is worth revisiting the canard that both parties supported Brexit in their manifesto. This claim completely ignores the fact that they had dramatically different views of what Brexit was (and there is no reason whatever to assume all 17.4 million voted for the same thing, so there is good reason that at least some of the 17.4m meant what Labour meant)

For interest, here is an extract from the Labour manifesto:


Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first. We will prioritise jobs and living standards, build a close new relationship with the EU, protect workers’ rights and environmental standards, provide certainty to EU nationals and give a meaningful role to Parliament throughout negotiations. We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain. We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the        economy        first.        A Labour government will immediately guarantee existing rights for all EU nationals living in Britain and secure reciprocal rights for UK citizens who have chosen to make their lives in EU countries. EU nationals do not just contribute to our society: they are part of our society. And they should not be used as bargaining chips.


So what Labour meant in their definition of Brexit included the benefits of single market, customs union, and protection of EU nationals. If that is not what you think Brexit is, then by definition you cannot claim that Labour promised whatever you do think it means in the last election.


03 Apr 19 - 10:56 AM (#3985666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

I've said this before and I won't be surprised if I say it again in the future. The only way to actually and fully leave the European Union is with 'No Deal'. Every little bit of a deal ties us to the European Union and it's rules. Remainers know this and this is why they insist on taking No Deal off the table. They want to take leaving the EU off the table. The stratagem is deeply dishonest but not unrecognised.


03 Apr 19 - 10:58 AM (#3985667)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Wasn't intending to - Stanron is what he is but he doesn't resort to personal abuse as does our resident representative Brexiteer who makes response unnecessary by his own behaviour (spoilsport)
Jim


03 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM (#3985674)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Another minister resigned. The dominoes slowly tumble. The choice between troughing and conscience plays out slowly!


03 Apr 19 - 12:08 PM (#3985682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

"Vote Leave, Get Remain.
Vote May, Get Corbyn.
Any Deal is Better than No Deal.
Ad vomitum. Even God himself appears to have had enough of this disingenuous lot."


03 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM (#3985688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Isn't it great to see two partiots sneering at Britain's dilemma
On par with one of them gloating that Ireland would be dragged down into the swamp Brexit has created, higher up this thread
Humanity and compassion rules OK in their world - Nigel and Tommy should be proud of you
Ji, Carroll


03 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM (#3985696)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

You're a lying bastard

and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face!
03 Apr 19 - 02:15 PM (#3985705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Had my fun
If you can't stand by what you said, don't say it or you'll later have to lie about it
Thanks for yet another display of Brexiteering - all goes into the profile (espacially the creativity that goes into it - genius - utter original genius)
G'night
Jim Carroll


03 Apr 19 - 02:24 PM (#3985707)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Very interesting article in the Guardian now highlighting some dirty tricks, alledgedly, by the leave campaign.

Seems some of their supporters have been paying for an advertising campaign on Facebook.

Could someone please link to the article 'Facebook Brexit Ad's secretly run by staff of former Tory advisors company'


03 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM (#3985709)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


Facebook ads run secretly run by staff of Lynton Crosby


03 Apr 19 - 02:38 PM (#3985710)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

I do not believe that everyone who voted leave voted for a no dealbrexit i have talked to some who wanted the uk to be a similiar position to norway


03 Apr 19 - 03:07 PM (#3985713)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

If we do not have a clean break we need representatives in the EU Parliament. May's treaty hamstrings us where we are subject to EU law and taxation with no seat at the negotiating table.
We fetter ourselves to taxation without representation.

It is neither fish nor fowl, simply foul!


03 Apr 19 - 03:32 PM (#3985719)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

So remain is better than her deal in your view. Not your first choice, of course, but that is the case you make.


03 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM (#3985723)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Exactly what I thought when I read his post, DMcG - he's described his preference for precisely what we have right now as members of the EU.


03 Apr 19 - 04:03 PM (#3985725)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Perhaps after 3 years reality is starting to dawn.


03 Apr 19 - 07:56 PM (#3985748)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

What May is offering is not a deal,it is an international treaty that in many respects is worse than what we have now. It is not brexit, it is a betrayal. It is such a betrayal her own party cannot support it, she has to go cap in hand to a marxist. Her puppet masters must be very pleased by her performance. The only thing that May is offering is fetters and chains with the keys firmly held by the EU bureaucrats
17.4 million are still waiting for an election commitment to be honoured.


03 Apr 19 - 08:14 PM (#3985752)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

It takes a worried man
To sing a worried song...

:-)


03 Apr 19 - 08:15 PM (#3985753)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Example of No Deal
According to the German association of the automotive industry, the country last year(2017 exported 769,000 cars to the UK, its single largest export market.If the UK were to join in a tariff war, the industry would suffer the commercial equivalent of a cardiac arrest.

Do you seriously think No Deal would cause anything other than a short term dislocation?
It is not the abyss it is painted to be. The only scare story that has come to pass is the reek of bullsh*t


03 Apr 19 - 08:30 PM (#3985755)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

I agree. We should leave on WTO rules and then see what offers come our way. No one in our government has the nerve to implement this kind of exit. No one has the courage to stand up for our long term interests.

We'll get what we get. Probably a rubbish deal.


03 Apr 19 - 09:00 PM (#3985758)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Well you voted for her!


03 Apr 19 - 09:14 PM (#3985760)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron

I 'voted for her' in Manchester. A safe Labour seat.

Of course you favour Corbyn. He's a revolutionary socialist. What's that likely to do for your pension?


03 Apr 19 - 09:29 PM (#3985761)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

"We'll get what we get. Probably a rubbish deal."

What you said after nine years of Tory Britain. Stick to the point for once. YOU voted brexit, YOU voted May. YOU forgot to be careful what you wished for. This is a one hundred percent Tory mess, spawned by that man Cameron, who YOU also voted for. One hundred percent your mess. If you don't get what you want, tough shit, mate. Don't blame anyone else. The whole planet and his dog now knows that we are a damn sight better off staying as we are. That's what I've voted for all along. You and your sorry ilk did this to us, and, if we leave, you can be damn sure that we won't let you forget it. So no wonder you can never stick to the point. No "Marxist" ever got anywhere near this bloody mess. Your pension, if it gets hit, will be hit by a bloody mess that you Tories created all by your silly selves. So don't even think of blaming us. And I haven't even read any Marx.


04 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM (#3985768)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Corbyn is a far from a 'revolutionary socialist' as you can get (total waste of time to ask for examples to back up to this claim)
He is an old guard Humanist Socialist of the type that helped create the promised "Home fit for heroes to live in" following the war
He's read Marx - most people who have an active interest in politics have - Thatcher boasted she had, as have numerous Tory leaders   

The head of the Bank of England yesterday described the STEADY DECLINE in the British economy yesterday and laid the blame squarely on Brexit - he said that crashing out would be catastrophic   
I was talking with a friend whose work as lecturer took him to Germany a few months ago - as a good Catholic, he was stunned at the official resurgence of an interest in Marx as a serious economist
As a young man Marx was a revolutionary, but his main work was as an Economist - 'Young Karl Marx is worth seeing (especially for mancunians)
Along with 'The Death of Stalin', it ranks as one of the best films ever made, in my opinion - both should be on any education curriculum

As someone whose sole income is a British State pension, the way things have gone and continue to go, it's ludicrous for a Tory to raise the issue of pensions - they become less valuable by the month
I suggest they go check on exactly what they are before they suggest that anybody can possibly live on them
Tory Policies (pursued by both parties to date) have led to a steady fall in the BRITISH STANDARD OF LIVING and the economic forecasts suggest twenty years of economic instability
I don't think any Tory is in a position to a claim of being taken seriously since the Brexit Show has bombed the way it has
Jim Carroll


04 Apr 19 - 03:17 AM (#3985771)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

A REALITY CHECK FOR TORIES
Jim Carroll


04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM (#3985774)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman

If we do not have a clean break we need representatives in the EU Parliament.
incorrect, representatives can be nominated ,check your facts


04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM (#3985775)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

For all of that, Ians and Stanron, we have to go with something. Obviously your first choice is no deal, we understand that. The question was, if that is blocked for whatever reason, do you support the Withdrawal Agreement or remain? From what Ians wrote, it looks like remain for him.


04 Apr 19 - 04:16 AM (#3985781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Let's take that a stage further. According to rumour one of the things the cabinet discussed was using alternative votes for the government indicative votes with these options:

A: May's Deal
B: Labour's Deal
C: No deal
D: Revoke.

(No doubt with an amendable bill a second referendum and Malthouse compromise would be proposed as amendments, but they were not options being suggested.)


As an MP, you have to rank them. No option to say you would rather do something else, that's what's on the order paper. What would your order be?

Mine would be
Revoke
Labour
May
No deal

What would others say?


04 Apr 19 - 04:18 AM (#3985782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

What is on offer is the bastard son of what was voted for.
Tied to the EU by a treaty with no representation.
For those with no knowledge of history it is worth pointing out that the
War of Independence, also known as the American Revolution and the Revolutionary War, was fought from 1775 to 1783 between Great Britain and the 13 British colonies in North America.No taxation without representation" is a slogan originating during the 1700s that summarized one of 27 colonial grievances of the American colonists in the Thirteen Colonies, which was one of the major causes of the American Revolution.
representatives can be nominated ,check your facts
Pray tell why the rush for a deal before the EU elections. Unless we have an election we will have no MEPs. Representatives are a totally different category of officials
May's Treaty leaves us locked in paying all sorts of reparations with no voice in the matter. It is many magnitudes worse than remaining members.


04 Apr 19 - 04:33 AM (#3985783)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

Just spotted a good phrase to describe those who call those who wish to remain in the EU "remoaners" and want to force their views on everyone else. Brexitaliban :-)

On a more serious note, I concur with your choices DMcG.


04 Apr 19 - 04:34 AM (#3985784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Interesting comment yesterday about the motion on no deal where the speaker had to follow convention(to his utter partisan disgust)and cast his tiebreaker vote for nay.That one vote that tipped the balance could have been Labour's Fiona Onasanya, convicted for perverting the course of justice, wearing an electronic tag.

The bill itself, lest we forget, was proposed by Labour expenses fiddler Yvette Cooper who flipped her house several times.


04 Apr 19 - 04:39 AM (#3985785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

And after that protest, how would you rank the choices, Iain? As an MP, the house would be calling on you to vote. Telling it you are unhappy is all very well, but a vote is needed.


04 Apr 19 - 05:07 AM (#3985792)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Another raw nerve touched
Jim Carroll


04 Apr 19 - 05:15 AM (#3985793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

BREXIT TALIBAN
Jim


04 Apr 19 - 05:15 AM (#3985794)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

BREXIT TALIBAN
Jim


04 Apr 19 - 05:37 AM (#3985800)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

I should correct myself. Bercow cast a vote on Benn's motion to hijack the proceedings of the house.
The motion for denying no deal Brexit passed by a majority of one
(Fiona Onasanya trapsed through the Aye lobby complete with electronic ankle tag…)
A majority of one to frustrate no deal that frustrates a majority leave vote of 17.4 million. That is not democracy.

I find it quite incredible that the referendum majority voters are compared to a terrorist organisation whereas the remainiacs are regarded as being pure as driven snow by leftards here.
But as they are all staunch Corbinistas I suppose it should be no surprise.

a patriot

Another raw nerve touched
Don't fink so!
Just pointing out he is a purveyor of abject stupidity (something you should be extremely familiar with)


04 Apr 19 - 05:55 AM (#3985803)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

It is entirely up to you, Iain, if you face up to putting those options in order. But I have to say it looks more like you are adopting Violet Elizabeth's approach of "I'll thcream and thcream until I'm thick. I can!" rather than, say 1 Corinthians 13:11 (as I know you like the occasional biblical reference.)


04 Apr 19 - 05:58 AM (#3985804)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"something you should be extremely familiar with"
You've made sure all of us are Iains
Can't imagine anything more stupid than denying racism by using racist abuse - every bit as stupid as denying the threatening nature of Brexit with your usual anonymous abusive web-creeping would-be bullying
Jim Carroll


04 Apr 19 - 06:23 AM (#3985810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG:
C: No deal
D: Revoke.
A: May's Deal (But if I had a vote on these options I would list only 1st & 2nd preferences)
B: Labour's Deal (Do we know what this is?)


04 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM (#3985812)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Thanks, Nigel. That is very much what I would have predicted, for you, Iains and Stanron. My biggest uncertainty is where revoke would fit in the rankings for each of you.

I agree there is no real definition of what exactly Labour's deal would be (and as I have before I think no more highly of red unicorns than blue ones), but I think we will all agree it would some form of closer alignment than May is proposing.


04 Apr 19 - 06:37 AM (#3985814)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Hard to notice that the voter's right to confirm their original decision appears nowhere on youtr list Nigel - Where has all the democracy gone ?
Nobody can remotely claim that things haven't both clarified or changed since the referendum
Some Labour MPs are demanding that second Referendum be a condition of Labour's co-operation - a sign that someone in Parliament understands the term 'democracy'
Jim Carroll


04 Apr 19 - 06:41 AM (#3985816)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


Hard to notice that the voter's right to confirm their original decision appears nowhere on your list Nigel - Where has all the democracy gone ?


Sorry, Jim, but Nigel is doing exactly what I asked. The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet so I specifically excluded that.


04 Apr 19 - 06:50 AM (#3985819)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Can't imagine anything more stupid than denying racism by using racist abuse - every bit as stupid as denying the threatening nature of Brexit with your usual anonymous abusive web-creeping would-be bullying
Still waiting for examples of my racism. Your last attempt merely made you look rather silly.(a familiar position for you to be in.)
You are losing it jimmie.

What is threatening about carrying out the clearly stated wishes of the majority? Yet again you display your bigotry and stupidity.
Shall I send you copies of the Janet and John books on how to construct a rational argument, or have you yet to progress beyond colouring books?

DMcG I would have thought I made my position quite clear.
No deal or stay in and send an army of wannabe Farages to the EU parliament and fight the good fight from within.
Future elections both in the UK and Europe will clearly show the electorate will not be sidestepped by treachery.
When democracy is being abandoned you are lucky that so far opposition is only words.

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind", which in turn comes from the chapter 8 of the Book of Hosea in the Old Testament.


04 Apr 19 - 06:56 AM (#3985820)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG


DMcG I would have thought I made my position quite clear



Nothing like as clear as putting A, B, C and D in some order, Iains. Are you saying you have the same order as Nigel?


04 Apr 19 - 07:03 AM (#3985823)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

If I do read Iains correctly as implying 'revoke' as his second choice like Nigel, that is quite a revelation to me and, I suspect, to cabinet. I am sure their strategy is that because Cherry's amendment did so badly, and because of shouts of "denying democracy", the cabinet assumed revoke would end up in last place in the first round and was only put in as a sop. Since they are the larger party, May's deal is likely to win out over a Labour proposal. So I think they are fairly confident May's deal would win in an Alternative Vote play-off. But if Nigel and Iains are typical, revoke could give a much stronger showing than that if it survived the first round.


04 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM (#3985825)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

i have tried to ignore iain, he's just so offensive, and clearly happy to be defined that way. now i'm starting to be a little concerned about his sanity -he doesn't come across as very happy. once we get into quoting old testament stuff (not sure for what purpose here) that way proper madness lies.

(deuteronomy 24 reckons that if you have a disobedient child you should take him to the edge of the village and stone him to death. and don't even get him started on the horrors of shellfish or wearing mixed fibres...)

anyway, seriously iain- lighten up, none of this matters really...


04 Apr 19 - 07:30 AM (#3985829)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet"
I was not referring to your list, but to the fact that a second referendum is not being considered as an option by any of the Brexiteers
One of the things that has become quite clear about the necessity of one is that i has now become quite obvious that it is not in Britain's either short or long term interests to leave Europe - the Statement by the had of the Bank of England yesterday has confirmed that
To go ahead knowing this would be economic and social suicide, so the people need to be allowed to confirm their wishes

Pater
I wouldn't take too much notice of someone incapable of admitting that 'bog=trotter' and 'Plastic Paddy' are long standing offensive racist terms especially as he is the only user of them on this Forum
Jim


04 Apr 19 - 07:30 AM (#3985830)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet"
I was not referring to your list, but to the fact that a second referendum is not being considered as an option by any of the Brexiteers
One of the things that has become quite clear about the necessity of one is that i has now become quite obvious that it is not in Britain's either short or long term interests to leave Europe - the Statement by the had of the Bank of England yesterday has confirmed that
To go ahead knowing this would be economic and social suicide, so the people need to be allowed to confirm their wishes

Pater
I wouldn't take too much notice of someone incapable of admitting that 'bog=trotter' and 'Plastic Paddy' are long standing offensive racist terms especially as he is the only user of them on this Forum
Jim


04 Apr 19 - 07:37 AM (#3985832)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

one particularly irritating habit is to give other posters supposedly derogatory 'nicknames' - pete


04 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM (#3985848)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel

peteaberdeen you are right about the "none of this matters anyway".
Collapse of Earth and climate for human needs are proceeding with more far reaching events and effects than Brexit and political intrigue.
6,000 years from now a mosquito fart will have more importance than Brexit stupidity.
Brexit is one of a million dominos lined up and ready to fall.


04 Apr 19 - 08:12 AM (#3985841)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

It's just been announced that The DUP has accused the government of being about to do a U-turn on a second referendum - not sure what they are basing that on - fingers crossed though

"one particularly irritating habit is to give other posters supposedly derogatory 'nicknames' - pete"
Stopped doing that a long time ago - at Joe Offer's request
Can't do much about my typos unless I cut my typing speed
Jim


04 Apr 19 - 08:20 AM (#3985852)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Bastard is a response to your lying (as you have done in denying your persistent and obvious racism)
Hardly a derogatorty nickname, especially when it is an accurate description
A reminder of what you denied saying
and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face! >
Enough I think - I've allowed you to show yourself up quite adequately - one can take only so much recreation in one day
Move on - nothing to be seen here
Jim Carroll


04 Apr 19 - 08:58 AM (#3985861)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG:
But if Nigel and Iains are typical, revoke could give a much stronger showing than that if it survived the first round.

I put 'Revoke' in second place on the basis that Mrs May's 'deal' leaves us worse off than we were before, and the Labour Party deal has never been spelt out, but is not likely to be any improvement over Mrs may's deal.

If we can't get out with either a good deal, or with WTO terms, then at least revoking Article 50 will leave us in the position we were in prior to June 2016. We would have the opportunity to issue Article 50 again at a later date, after all the ramifications had been fully discussed, and an intended way forward in place.

As for a second referendum (which might become necessary if Article 50 was revoked). You didn't ask about it so I didn't respond (as you clearly stated).

If Jim wants to increase the scope of the question maybe he would like to ask his own, or at least give his response to your original one.


04 Apr 19 - 08:59 AM (#3985862)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Apropos of the meetings between May and Corbyn, there are just two ways in which Jeremy can come out of this unscathed: walk away, and soon, or get her to agree to put her deal (or whatever version of it they come up with) to the country in another referendum. Her deal or remain. Anything that alters her deal simply in order to get it through Parliament makes him the brexit midwife (a phrase not of my invention). Walk away or force a referendum, Jezza. And I hate referendums.


04 Apr 19 - 09:17 AM (#3985864)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve Shaw: or get her to agree to put her deal (or whatever version of it they come up with) to the country in another referendum. Her deal or remain.
But as most of those in favour of Brexit look on Mrs May's deal as BRINO (Brexit in name only) you would suggest putting to the public a referendum where the only two options were to remain in the EU. That would be a victory for Remain whatever the result.
As the Leave campaign won the first referendum, any further referendum would have to include an option which clearly got us out of the EU.

Would you, Steve, give us your opinion on how you would answer DMcG' question?

Let's take that a stage further. According to rumour one of the things the cabinet discussed was using alternative votes for the government indicative votes with these options:

A: May's Deal
B: Labour's Deal
C: No deal
D: Revoke.

(No doubt with an amendable bill a second referendum and Malthouse compromise would be proposed as amendments, but they were not options being suggested.)


As an MP, you have to rank them. No option to say you would rather do something else, that's what's on the order paper. What would your order be?


04 Apr 19 - 09:21 AM (#3985865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

There's no such thing as a "Labour deal" because, in this context, deals are made between two parties after negotiation, which is what Labour has not been involved with. But Labour has clearly and frequently expressed its aspirations for brexit, as follows:

— A permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU.that would deliver the frictionless trade that our businesses, workers and consumers need, and is the only viable way to ensure there is no hard border on the island of Ireland.

— Close alignment with the EU single market with shared institutions and obligations.

— Dynamic alignments on rights and protections so that the U.K. cannot undercut Brussels rules.

— Clear commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programs.

— Unambiguous agreements that cover the detail of future security arrangements, for example shared databases used to solve and prevent crime, plus the European Arrest Warrant.


If Labour were in a position of power, these points would constitute the Political Declaration. As they are not in power and as these points have not been subjected to negotiation and agreement with the EU, that's the best we can can currently get from Labour, a set of demands not set in stone. You simply can't set them alongside the Tory version by way of direct comparison as one is a wish list, easily modified, and the other is a negotiated agreement. But anyone who doesn't see them as a clear enough set of alternative aspirations expressed by the Opposition has me scratching my head. You don't have to agree with them but that's no reason to deny that they exist.


04 Apr 19 - 09:27 AM (#3985868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

The notion that May's deal is a remain deal is totally crackpot.

I would put a 1 next to revoke and nothing alongside the others. I wouldn't state any kind of preference whatsoever for any outcome that is inevitably going to damage the country.


04 Apr 19 - 09:31 AM (#3985872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

"If Labour were in a position of power, these points would constitute the Political Declaration."

...assuming that they had been negotiated with and agreed to by the EU, of course. Can't think they wouldn't have been.


04 Apr 19 - 09:45 AM (#3985879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

For clarity, let me remind you all that when May gave her recent announcement on 2nd April , she said:

"However, if we cannot agree on a single unified approach, then we would instead agree a number of options for the Future Relationship that we could put to the House in a series of votes to determine which course to pursue."


It is this "number of options" that will be put to the house before 10th April we are discussing. So "the Labour deal" is probably essentially that put before the house already. There will probably be no further explicit negotiation of it with the EU before then.


04 Apr 19 - 09:48 AM (#3985880)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"If Jim wants to increase the scope of the question maybe he would like to ask his own, "
I have done from day one - why haven't people been given the right to confirm that they want to leave now the consequences of doing so have become clearer
Maybe you would like to answer it (any of the Brexiteers present, that is)?
Jim Carroll


04 Apr 19 - 10:40 AM (#3985894)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Labour chaps and chapesses can pay informal visits to the Brussels top brass to explain their take on things but they can't negotiate.


04 Apr 19 - 11:22 AM (#3985900)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Whoops!
Ireland DITCHES Britain as less than HALF of Irish firms register for no deal trade
LESS than half of the 84,000 Irish companies that trade with Britain have registered for a customs number to continue doing so after Brexit.

brexit
The Irish tax authority has warned business in the Republic could be cut off (Image: GETTY)

This revelation has triggered an intervention from the Irish tax authority which has warned business in the Republic could be cut off if Britain leaves the EU without a deal. Given close trading links to its nearest neighbour, Irish customs officials are braced for a 12-fold rise in the number of import and export declarations made by local companies if Britain leaves the European Union's customs union. With Britain at risk of crashing out of the EU as soon as next week, Ireland's Office of the Revenue Commissioners and government urged firms to apply for an Economic Operators Registration and Identification (EORI) number, which will be needed to continue to move goods to, from or through the UK. Irish Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe said on Twitter: “IMPORTANT: Businesses trading with UK will need an EORI customs number in a no deal Brexit.
Brexit: Varadkar warns no deal ‘particularly difficult’ for Ireland


04 Apr 19 - 04:12 PM (#3985946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Jim, you need a complete reset. This man is not worth the snot from your nose. Recognise it and laugh him off. Let me be the second person in this thread to seriously question his sanity. Actually, I don't think it needs a question. Ignore everything he posts, let him rattle around on his own and make himself miserable. No-one here takes him seriously and he has no influence.


05 Apr 19 - 02:26 AM (#3985977)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Thanks Steve
Beyond me why he is allowed to remain
Somebody Up there Likes Him (my favourite Paul Newman film)
Don't sink to his level - that gives hin an excuse to go on - he knows why he behaves why he does - part of his job description
Jim


05 Apr 19 - 02:36 AM (#3985978)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

”This man is not worth the snot from your nose.”

That’s a nice turn of phrase. But, personally, I prefer “The steam off your piss”, though I do understand how that one may infringe Steve’s personal ‘no bad language’ red-line. Only slightly though! ;-)


05 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM (#3985979)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Incidentally - I've learned to regard each uncontrollable outburst of abuse as a 'touché' - (a racist one counts as two) a handy thing to keep in mind
Perhaps we might set up a scoreboard with pints for prizes
Jim


05 Apr 19 - 04:58 AM (#3985985)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

I'm fine with piss, shit, arse, tits, nuts, fanny and cock, if used wittily and appropriately, but I won't put my effin' and jeffin' in print, that's all (I'm good at it down the pub, mind). I'm not that prissy!


05 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM (#3985987)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Light relief
An article in this morning's Times suggests that, if you buy a sandwich in Derry and eat it in Donegal you would be guilty of smuggling
It boggles to think that if you buy it and eat it in Derry then travel to Donegal and have a crap, you would become a 'sandwich mule'
You 'ave to larf, dont'cha ?
Jim


05 Apr 19 - 07:46 AM (#3986003)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

You have to weep when you realise Brexit was destroyed by a majority of one in Parliament. A vote cast by a criminal wearing a tag, convicted of   perjury and perverting the course of justice.

THIS you could not make up!


05 Apr 19 - 07:57 AM (#3986004)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

After nearly three years of the Tories making a complete pigs ear of brexit I find it hilarious that the brexitaliban are now trying to shift the blame to a single ex-Labour MP.


05 Apr 19 - 08:08 AM (#3986005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

May asking for an extension till June - Tuske has d=suggested a year-long delay with the option for Britain to leave whenever they have a majority in parliament
To reprated the phrase borrowed from others because the borrower hasn't the imagination to come up with something of his own "you could not make this up"
Jim Carroll


05 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM (#3986012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen

sadly, brexit is going to happen - why are the exiters so cross? it is irritating that we are taking so long to sort out the details - but they could cheer up! 'what are we like, us daft old brits - it's been a right mix-up and no mistake but we got through it and we can have a good old laugh about it now'


05 Apr 19 - 09:48 AM (#3986013)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"sadly, brexit is going to happen - why are the exiters so cross? "
Probably, but don't confuse annoyance for political ambition
Theer has been a power struggle going on for several years now
I'm not sure how funny a fargmented nation without a government and with a rapidly rising extremist right using those of d different ethnich origin as stepping stones to powe - ancally is
Jim


05 Apr 19 - 10:14 AM (#3986017)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Why should we be cross? We either leave (on less than ideal terms) or we contest the EU and subsequent UK elections and obtain a far stronger mandate for our full departure in the future.
A little early for crowing by remainiacs methinks!


05 Apr 19 - 10:22 AM (#3986019)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome

A belter of an editorial in the Independent.

Drunk on their warped sense of nationalism, now Brexiteers are fighting for no deal "just because"

One of the many gems - So twice a day he appears on television, is asked for a comment and growls: “A customs union would make all our chickens explode. I could take on Portugal on my own, because when I was in the territorial army I marched three miles round Dorking one Saturday. Denmark is more horrible than an ostrich in your toilet. The only single market I’d vote for is one that sold fruit and veg and every morning shoved a grapefruit up Jean-Claude Juncker’s arse and made him dance the polka.”

:D tG


05 Apr 19 - 10:26 AM (#3986020)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash

Funny, for almost three years we've been told that a majority is a majority no matter how small and now the same person is bleating because they lost of a small majoity.

Good eh!!


05 Apr 19 - 11:06 AM (#3986023)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)

Well Pete, you may be right, but this isn't over until its over. The fight goes on.


05 Apr 19 - 12:26 PM (#3986032)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

The nitty gritty of Mays betrayal!
" Inside a customs union, “we would have to open up our markets to the third countries with which the EU had trade agreements, but the markets of such third countries would not be open to our exports since we would be outside the EU. And such third countries would have few incentives to sign trade agreements with us since their goods would already enjoy free access”.


05 Apr 19 - 12:43 PM (#3986037)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

”The nitty gritty of Mays betrayal!
" Inside a customs union, “we would have to open up our markets to the third countries with which the EU had trade agreements, but the markets of such third countries would not be open to our exports since we would be outside the EU. And such third countries would have few incentives to sign trade agreements with us since their goods would already enjoy free access”.”


Source?


05 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM (#3986039)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains

Source? Try google! One of your cabal expects us to take all his warblings on trust. He has never provided a link in his life.

irritating isn't it!


05 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM (#3986042)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

An honest man - especially one who makes claims to have been ‘an officer and a gentleman’ - would be prepared to substantiate what he claims as facts.

No accreditation - more Right-Wing-Extremist nonsense, not even worth reading.

Your choice.


05 Apr 19 - 02:05 PM (#3986045)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

"Source? Try google!"
He means he made it up - sorry - too inventive - Guido made it up and decided he woudn't get away with it
Seargant Majors always aspire to be "offices and gentlemen - too thick to be real officers so they end up with power and no real authority
Jim


05 Apr 19 - 02:14 PM (#3986046)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

oh, I know which Right-Wing-Extremist he dug it up from, Jim. Meaningless Righty-Confirmation-Bias.

He’s an even better wriggler than ol’ Keefy was - never answers a question, just obfuscates. I wonder if he’s a closet Belly-Dancer?


05 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM (#3986057)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

Are you going to answer a direct question, Squaddie? Short memory, or bare-faced liar, or (more likely) both?

I expect it’ll just be more barrack-room bully-boy tactics.


05 Apr 19 - 04:01 PM (#3986060)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Good to see the Nero d'Avola at £5.50, Dave, after the price hike to £6.50. A little beauty it is. Nirvana.


05 Apr 19 - 04:08 PM (#3986061)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman

”Say pretty please and I might give you some links, as you seem incapable of carrying out a simple internet search.”

Not incapable at all - I was working in IT programming on mainframes when you were still in the ACF - but I’m not wasting my time trawling through Right-Wing-Extremist garbage hunting for stuff that you’re too bone-idle, socially-inept, and plain, simple unprofessional to provide links to.

So you carry on belly-dancing, and I’ll have a good belly-laugh at a dozy, thick squaddie.


05 Apr 19 - 04:58 PM (#3986066)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw

Top Cat.


Oops, did I interpret those initials wrong...? :-)


05 Apr 19 - 06:02 PM (#3986069)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

The Cooper law is not yet agreed fully, but if it is I understand that obliges Teresa May to ask the EU for an extension.

I wonder what the consequence is if she decides not to? No penalty for breaking the law is defined, as far as I know. Being in contempt of Parliament had no effect. So what actually would be the consequence?

I was also trying to think of a precedent for a law that only applies to one person. There can't be many.


05 Apr 19 - 07:58 PM (#3986077)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons

Calls from people to Iains to give a link are fine, if they provide links for their statements as well.

It appears Iains may be relying on the following from Economics help:
Disadvantages of a customs union
•A country can't negotiate separate deals because there is a common external tariff. This reduces economic and national sovereignty. Critics of the EU argue it has meant the UK has experienced higher food prices and reduced the welfare of low-income consumers who face higher prices.•It is worth noting – Deals can be struck if they respect the common external tariff. Turkey is in a partial EU customs union so is free to negotiate deals in other areas like agriculture where it is not bound by its customs union arrangement.

•A country cannot give preferential tariffs to a declining industry. For example, if UK steel industry was having difficulty the government might like to put tariffs on imports to protect domestic sales, however, in a customs union you can't choose to have this separate tariff.
•Trade diversion. A common external tariff can lead to trade diversion. For example, when UK joined EEC, it had to raise tariffs on imports from the Commonwealth. This means higher prices for imports of butter and lamb.


06 Apr 19 - 02:47 AM (#3986098)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Those are alternatives Nigel, not definitive rules
Iains isn't "relying" on anything otherwise he would have humiliated everybody by putting something up (which is what he tries to do) by putting it up - he made the definitive up in desperation on the spur of the moment
What Iains wants is to feel someone takes him seriously - obviously a big void in is life

Brexit is a massive leap in the dark where there are no guarantees about anything and no plans on where to go from here - it was sold on Xenophobia and nothing else - it has even taken a special meeting between racist Nigel Farage and racist Trump to back a 'No-Deal Brexit' and the latter is so unstable that what he says today is quite likely meaningless tomorrow

Edwina Currie put it in a nutshell - 'We'll muddle through somehow - Britain always has' - no way to run a country in today's unstable world

Waving possibilities about is as meaningless as making them up when it comes to planning a country's future
Jim Carroll


06 Apr 19 - 02:47 AM (#3986099)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll

Those are alternatives Nigel, not definitive rules
Iains isn't "relying" on anything otherwise he would have humiliated everybody by putting something up (which is what he tries to do) by putting it up - he made the definitive up in desperation on the spur of the moment
What Iains wants is to feel someone takes him seriously - obviously a big void in is life

Brexit is a massive leap in the dark where there are no guarantees about anything and no plans on where to go from here - it was sold on Xenophobia and nothing else - it has even taken a special meeting between racist Nigel Farage and racist Trump to back a 'No-Deal Brexit' and the latter is so unstable that what he says today is quite likely meaningless tomorrow

Edwina Currie put it in a nutshell - 'We'll muddle through somehow - Britain always has' - no way to run a country in today's unstable world

Waving possibilities about is as meaningless as making them up when it comes to planning a country's future
Jim Carroll


06 Apr 19 - 02:50 AM (#3986100)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG

Maybe so, Nigel, but if so it is a very biased quotation.    I don't think I am alone in freely admitting there are disadvantages to a customs union, but that is not the point. There are also advantages (as that link also points out), and the key factor from an economics viewpoint is which is greater.

I said somewhere in these threads over a year ago - I can't be bothered to track it down - that as a purely economics question it is very reasonable for any country to continually assess all its trade deals and determine if they are to its benefit or not. If not, then it is sensible to seek to change them. So - again in purely economics terms - it is reasonable to examine whether the EU relationship is a good idea or not continually and act accordingly. But my assessment, and those of most economics apart from the Minford school, it that the arrangement is in the UK's favour.


06 Apr