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Moving up the neck

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GUEST,cmt49 23 Jan 07 - 09:38 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 23 Jan 07 - 10:59 PM
GUEST,Texas Guest 23 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM
Bernard 24 Jan 07 - 04:35 AM
David C. Carter 24 Jan 07 - 05:37 AM
David C. Carter 24 Jan 07 - 06:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 07 - 07:00 AM
Nick 24 Jan 07 - 08:15 AM
Grab 24 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM
Bernard 24 Jan 07 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,cmt49 24 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM
David C. Carter 24 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM
Midchuck 24 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM
bubblyrat 24 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Jim I 24 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM
Cluin 24 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,IB48 24 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,cmt49 24 Jan 07 - 10:39 PM
The Vulgar Boatman 25 Jan 07 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,Dropthumbs 26 Jan 07 - 12:34 AM
Waddon Pete 26 Jan 07 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,cmt49 27 Jan 07 - 06:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 07 - 06:35 AM
Cluin 27 Jan 07 - 06:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 07 - 06:47 AM
Cluin 27 Jan 07 - 07:00 AM
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Subject: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,cmt49
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:38 PM

I have played guitar for many years, but tend to stay in and around the first five frets. I see Irish guitarists accompanying jigs etc with a whole bunch of chords 'up the neck' when I have to use the same old three. Here I am not talking about bar chords, but sequences of chord shapes used to add harmony, bass lines, etc. Any tips?


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:59 PM

If they're up the neck, and they're not barre chords, and they're being used to accompany Irish music, there's a good chance the player is playing in DADGAD tuning. Open tunings (DADGAD technically isn't an open tuning, but it's close enough)lend themselves to relatively simple chord fingerings at almost any position on the neck. A chord shape composed of a mix of open strings and notes fretted pretty far up the neck can sound wonderful in open tunings, whereas it usually sounds like crap in standard tuning.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM

Yes, in a nutshell - using "standard" E A D G B E tuning, try this -
1. learn the notes of the neck and learn to make your own chords
   without using all of the strings of the guitar in your chord.
   For example, you may use the bottom three strings, or the top
   three, or two or three in the middle and let the others rest.   
2. Find a shape, ie, the shape of Am7, or Em and simply move it up
   and down the neck and see where it works and where it doesn't.
   You may also add another string/note "wherever," to see how that
   sounds with your "shape" in any specific position you desire.
3. The key for playing Irish music using a guitar in "standard"
   tuning is: get away from "standard" chords as an "all the time
   thing;" drop the third out of the chord; and, find a drone note
   to use with the chord whenever you can.

Now, before I have a horde of "monster" guitar players come on here and fill this thread up with statements to the effect that I don't know what I'm talking about - let me say - they're right. I am not
a guitarist - I play the instrument the best I can using it as a vehicle for my voice and the songs I present while making my living. What I have given you at the top of this write is a small bit that came out of four, two-hour, sequential group classes titled, "Guitar -Irish Music In Standard Tuning" that I attended at the O'Flaherty Irish Music Retreat in Midlothian, Texas back in October of 2006.
The class was taught by Matt Heaton (he plays with many of Irish music's "biggies") and he has a website somewhere on the internet -
find it and contact him and I'd bet he'd give you a tip or two.
You may also want to look up O'Flaherty's Irish Music Retreat as
well - three days of total immersion in Irish music - all Irish instruments and voice. Hope this helps. Cheers.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:35 AM

A chord shape that works well up and down the neck for tunes in E minor is:


-----------
| | | | | |
| O | | | |
| | | | | |
-----------
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
-----------
| | | | | |
| | O O | |
| | | | | |
-----------

This plays E minor on the 7th fret...


Move it around, and you'll get some useful sounds... you'll also get some nasties, too!

I suppose it's the folk equivalent of a 'power chord'...!!


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: David C. Carter
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:37 AM

0 7 7 6 0 0      0 0 11 9 0 0    0 0 7 5 0 0    0 7 5 0 0 0   
    A                  A             Am             Em
0 7 9 9 0 0      0 10 12 12 0 0 0 7 9 9 0 0    0 11 11 9 0 0
    E                Em/G            E             Dbm
These chords may have different names to the ones I gave them,but if you fiddle around,experiment,as Texas Guest suggests, you can come up with some interesting sounds.You can play all strings or pick out the ones fretted.Can't explain this any better.Good luck.
David


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: David C. Carter
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:46 AM

Looks like something went wrong when I hit submit!


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:00 AM

for God's sake - stick to the shallow end. the other end is where the rough boys hang out.
you won't like it, if one of them jumps on you off the side, and they all swear, and I've seen them wee in the water.....


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Nick
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:15 AM

I learned a lot from this tune (which happens to be one my favourite tunes to listen and play)- Canyon Moonrise - and have used the chords and ideas in lots of other tunes.

I had a really useful exchange of emails with John McGann who wrote it. When I originally heard the tune I thought that it was in DADGAD or similar but John told me that, while he liked DADGAD, he liked playing these sorts of chord voicings as he found it less limiting.

As an aside I think that everyone should play this tune but that's just me!


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Grab
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

They may not be using DADGAD, but they could well be using drop-D tuning (tune your bottom E to D). This essentially gives you an "open tuning" on the bottom three strings, and simply using these three strings to give bass notes and an accompanying "power chord" is effective, especially if you're with a bunch of other people and you've got folks doing the strummy thing on regular chords, where you're pretty much acting as a replacement for a bass player.

Drop-D also gives you a fantastic G chord which is 550003 (or 555003, 550033, 550403 or variations on that theme), and that obviously involves heading up the neck a little.

If it's a small group (or a duo), don't forget that open strings are also a note. As Bernard suggests, you can get interesting "spacey" chords by moving a chord shape up the neck and keeping the same open strings - try it and see what works. Beware that this usually doesn't go down well in a session though. It works in duos because it gives contrasts between the two (or more) instrumental parts, but in a session, usually the last thing you want is contrasts - when you're part of a huge whirling mass of instruments, you want to be looking at harmony and not dissonance.

Incidentally, you say they're not using barre chords. Barre chords are just one example of what's called "closed" chord shapes, which are ones that don't use any open strings so they can be pushed up and down the neck as much as you want (eg. a C7 pushed up 6 frets will give an F#7). "Open" chord shapes (which predictably use one or more open strings) can't do this, because the open string will no longer be the third/fifth/whatever in the chord. These closed chord shapes often don't use all the strings - you either avoid playing the other strings or damp them with your fingers. The closed C7 shape is a classic example here - it's x3231x (x=don't play), so you avoid playing the lower E string, and damp the upper E string with the pad of your first finger. You can slide this up and down the neck as much as you want, in the same way you can with a barre chord. If you want to find out more about these, probably a beginner's jazz guitar book would be a good start - jazz players use these shapes a lot, so that'd be the most useful place to look.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:07 AM

Hope this is what David meant...!

----------- ----------- ----------- -----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | 5 | | | | 5 | | | | 10| | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
----------- ----------- ----------- -----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | 6 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
----------- ----------- ----------- -----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 7 7 | | | | | 7 | | | | 7 | | | | | |12 12| |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
----------- ----------- ----------- -----------
A           Am           Em            E

----------- ----------- -----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 7 | | | | | | | 9 | | | | | 9 | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
----------- ----------- -----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
----------- ----------- -----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | 9 9 | | | | 11| | | |11 11| | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
----------- ----------- -----------
E         Em/G          Dbm



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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,cmt49
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

Thanks a lot for the great advice. Things begin to make sense now. God, I love this site!


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: David C. Carter
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

Bernard:Thanks for sorting out the sordid mess I made!

Cheers
David


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

Who was it said "There's no money above the fifth fret?"

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: bubblyrat
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

I play in "dropped D" all the time---It"s very liberating, & a step in the right direction for playing along in Celtic sessions ( in which case,in can be nice to drop the top E as well----give it a go !!) --- In Double-dropped D , you can play all sorts of interesting chords, and of course,the dropped bottom E allows the playing of tunes,using a plectrum, that otherwise would not be possible !! With just "dropped -D ", I can cope with G-D- A key changes in a set of tunes, but DADGAD players can"t cope with the key of A without frantically scrabbling for a capo !!! Try dropping the bottom E to D, the play a D chord on the 14 th fret, playing all six strings ----I love it !! Although it"s easier if you"ve got a cutaway.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

There are lots of up the neck chords that don't involve barré chords.

To work some out, take any chord where you have open strings, and then work out the barré chords up the neck which would give you that chord - and see if you can adjust your fingering so as to leave those same strings open.

Try playing a G with an F shape moved up two frets, but leaving the G string open. Lovely rich sound you get, you can use it for either G or G minor, because it doesn't have that B note in the chord you play (some would say it's not a "chord" at all, it's a "dyad", which is what you want a lot of the time anyway in Irish music.).


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,Jim I
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM

I agree with all that has been said here and the resulting sounds from playing up the neck and/or in open tunings are varied and tuneful, often adding depth and expression to the music.

What I do not like are those (few) guitarists who play jazz/blues chords which, very often, do not suit the tune being played.

It seems to me that often they do not know the tune and are just playing chords that they hope will fit by jumping up and down the neck, resulting in a lot of dischords. Obviously the chords they play do, quite often, and I think mainly by accident, end up sounding all right.

OK Whinge over.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM

Often they are polychords designed around a bass line they think will counterpoint nicely with the tune.

Sometimes they just vamp with different versions of the same chord and lots of damped strings. It's how they try and define their own "sound" as regards accompaniment.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,IB48
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM

Quite important if you want higher notes


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,cmt49
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:39 PM

Thanks for the tip, IB48. Could I achieve the same effect by turning the strings around and then playing on the low frets as usual?


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:06 PM

At least now you know why it's called the dusty end of the neck...


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,Dropthumbs
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:34 AM

Try placing a capo in reverse, i.e. so the capo catches the bottom 5 strings and lets the sixth string ring open, capo at 2nd fret. Play a D, you get great lower resonance. Play a G, as you would in standard tuning, as well as C, F, A on the 6th fret. Try a Dm position six frets above the capo, slid the ring finger up one fret, and then down one fret, then move the Dm position down two frets, do the same slide up with the ring finger , now you have the chord formation for "Everybody's Talkin At Me" or "All My Lifes A Circle" as a medley. I tune my 12 string (Guild 1968 212 xl with med gauge strings, no wound octaves, one full note down, so that when the capo is on the 2nd fret, I'm at standard A and play the hell out of anything in D.
Regards,
Chuck Goings
Myrtle Beach SC


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:39 AM

Hi Guestcmt 49

If you mean reversing the strings so the highest is nearest your chin...you can't do that on a normally strung guitar as the gaps in the nut where the strings go through are different widths...your fingertips will pay the price of a much higher action in what used to be the trebles...

best wishes,

Pete


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: GUEST,cmt49
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:00 AM

I....er....was only joking!


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:35 AM

Not necessarily, Waddon Pete - I used to have a guitar that had been built as a left-hander, and then changed round before it came to me, and it worked fine.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:43 AM

I think he was suggesting (jokingly) reversing the string so the ball end was up at the nut end.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:47 AM

There are guitars built that way, with the tuners up the bridge end of the beast.


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Subject: RE: Moving up the neck
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:00 AM

Yup. But it still doesn't produce high notes playing at the "country" end of the neck... unless you strum between the stopped strings and the nut.


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