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BS: Islamic Truth

beardedbruce 26 Sep 06 - 04:59 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Sep 06 - 05:33 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 06 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,wordy 26 Sep 06 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,MarkS 26 Sep 06 - 07:07 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 06 - 07:10 PM
robomatic 26 Sep 06 - 07:14 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 06 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,MarkS 26 Sep 06 - 09:36 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 06 - 11:26 PM
beardedbruce 27 Sep 06 - 01:36 PM
Wolfgang 27 Sep 06 - 02:48 PM
Wolfgang 27 Sep 06 - 04:07 PM
NH Dave 27 Sep 06 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,lox 27 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM
akenaton 28 Sep 06 - 04:36 AM
Bunnahabhain 28 Sep 06 - 06:37 AM
3refs 28 Sep 06 - 08:53 AM
beardedbruce 28 Sep 06 - 09:03 AM
Amos 28 Sep 06 - 09:18 AM
beardedbruce 28 Sep 06 - 09:24 AM
3refs 28 Sep 06 - 12:55 PM
Greg F. 28 Sep 06 - 01:19 PM
pdq 28 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM
3refs 28 Sep 06 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Ed 28 Sep 06 - 03:52 PM
akenaton 28 Sep 06 - 04:23 PM
Greg F. 28 Sep 06 - 07:13 PM
GUEST 29 Sep 06 - 05:12 AM
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Subject: BS: Islamic Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:59 PM

Community Censorship Plagues the House of Islam

Even worse than the official censorship is censorship imposed by the community, which then becomes self-censorship. Friends, colleagues and even ordinary acquaintances all impose strict censorship rules on me under the guise of being concerned about my personal safety or honor. They demand that I tone down my strong views about sensitive issues.

Click for the rest of the article at the Washington Post
By Bashir Goth | September 26, 2006; 1:25 PM ET


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:33 PM

It is not just the Islamic world that suffers from things being "unsayable". Nonetheless, my admittedly non-Islamic perspeective is that at present Islam (or some parts of it) appear(s) to be more repressive of free speech than any other religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 06:40 PM

Yes- "some parts of it". Try exercising "free speech" in parts of the southern U.S. "christian"[sic]"Bible Belt" & see what happens to you, your family and your property.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 06:52 PM

Wherever extremism raises its head, be it religious or political, it's the creative people, the thinkers, writers and doers who are the first to go to their cells or their deaths. We argue about small in house issues here but we should all be aware that we are not "them", and that "they" know this about us. Never relax and think we are safe, always work for reason and hope it prevails.
There are very hard times ahead for all of us, and our children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:07 PM

I just do not see any comparison between the reaction of a Christian fundamentalist in the Bible Belt and the reactions of Islamic fundamentalists in their behavior toward those they consider to be heterodox in their views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:10 PM

Look closer & harder. Or try it yourself. It'll be a revalation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:14 PM

Afraid you'll be beheaded on the internet, Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 09:16 PM

?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 09:36 PM

Nobody is trying to convert me to fundamentalist Christianity under pain of death, and if a fundamentalist renounces their faith, it is not a capital offence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 11:26 PM

The "?" was a reaction to Robomatic's posting-

Be that as it may, Guest Mark: that relates to the point under discussion- censorship & freedom of speech- how, exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 01:36 PM

BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- A leading opera house called off a production of Mozart's "Idomeneo" that features the severed head of the Prophet Mohammed, setting off a furious debate Tuesday over Islam, freedom of speech and the role of art.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/27/berlin.opera.ap/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:48 PM

Today, there was an "Islam conference" in Germany (scheduled since months, BTW) with participants from several Muslim organisations, prominent individual Muslims and government representatives like the minister for internal affairs and security. All participants (Muslim or not) have called for the opera to be continued. They'd like to see it together.

It was an unfortunate decision based upon a misunderstanding between two main actors. But it shows the fear that the physical violence threats of a tiny number of Muslims have triggered.

After the Denmark cartoon event, the German carnivalists have decided not to tell any jokes about Muslims, and they usually tell jokes about anyone including of course the local bishop or the pope.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 04:07 PM

Afraid of the Fear of Terror (opinion article in DER SPIEGEL)

Muslims are especially sensitive when it comes to their prophet. We learned that their anger threshold is very low and that it's best not to overstep it. We also learned that they interpret the suggestion that they incline towards violence as a form of defamation -- one they like to respond to by burning flags and effigies, and by chanting "Kill Those Who Insult Islam!"

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: NH Dave
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 04:22 PM

Of course the Muslim outrage at the Pope's rerendering of an old papal observation merely proved the truth of the observation then and now. What a shame that they have learned little over the time between the initial observaation and today.

This reluctance to face criticism, then and now, will keep them forever enslaved into a 9th century lifestyle. And this is the real shame, when you consider that Arab institutions were all that kept prior European learning alive over the ensuing centuries.

   Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM

not the first time there's been a furor in Germany ... aaargh ... don't mention the war


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:36 AM

I agree with most of what Greg writes on many threads, but it would be a mistake to try to excuse Islamic fundamentalism, by comparing those madmen to our madmen.
There are similarities between how Fundamentalist Islam and Fundamentalist christianity is applied as a tool of manipulation, but the reaction achieved is very different.

Osama and his henchmen are not mad , they are politicians doing what politicians always do, but their disciples are stark raving!

Be that as it may, all we can do if we are sincere is to try to keep ourselves safe and avoid making a bad situation worse.
We must hope that something arises from within Islam itself to temper the jihadists and bring back sanity.

Making war on nations full of religious fanatics is another kind of madness and is certain to end in the desruction of "civilisation"

This is arguably no bad thing for humanity, but is not what the neocons visualise...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:37 AM

I found the cancellation of the play especially worrying, considering the element in question was a small part, and is so clearly not picking out Islam as a special case.

The other recent issue that it compares with is the closure of a play in Britian following community protests and violence. That concerned sexual abuse in a Seik temple ( previous thread somewhere, can't find it)

Of course if this was not Germany then a) The oprea probably wouldn't been put on at all, and b) The problem would go away when it was announced there had been a printers error or such like, and it was actually Abrahams head....


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:53 AM

Would it be safe to suggest that with 5 major religions and countless others on one planet, that someone, or everyone has got it all wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:03 AM

"Would it be safe to suggest that .... that someone, or everyone has got it all wrong?"

The point being NO- It is NOT safe. Islamic fundamentalism has the truth, the only truth, and will threaten violence at any attempt to question that. As well as at any percieved insult or critical comment about their use of violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:18 AM

Not only not safe, probably not true. Kind of like asserting that since Superman saves the world from crime, Batman must be imaignary, and Spiderman an untenable porposition altogether. Right conclusion, perhaps, for the wrong reasons! :D

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:24 AM

Very true, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:55 PM

Who say's what I say isn't true? And why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:19 PM

I have no intention to excuse, Ake - only to try to inject some sense of proportion in the midst of the current anti-Islamic hysteria.

Fundamentalist nutters is fundamentalist nutters, whatever the religious persuasion. Any time you mix politics and religion [ vide the BuShites, Fred Phelps, et. al. ] you're in for trouble.

There are many more problems in the U.S. today that are more pressing and pose greater dangers to the average citizen than the dangers posed by a largely phantom Islamic terror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: pdq
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM

3refs seems to be a 'new face' so welcome. May you be treated well. OK, but hope springs eternal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:10 PM

What are these pressing dangers? What are the problems? What is the root cause?
I live in a mud hut! You live on 5th Ave!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:52 PM

There is no such thing as Islamic Truth, in the same way that there is no such thing as Christian Truth, Jewish True etc, etc.

Religion is a delusion, and the sooner people realised that, the happier the world would be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:23 PM

Greg...regarding "a largely phantom Islamic terror".
A couple of years ago we discussed on Mudcat what would happen if Islamic fundamentalists really wanted to destroy Western society.

It seemed so simple for a group of dedicated people who embraced the ideology of martyrdom to cause such panic among the populations of major Western cities that the economy would fail and public services be overun.
A biological attack seems the most likely scenario, as it would be so easy to achieve and the terror quotient so high.
Have no illusions,this senario can and may well be put into practice if we continue to pressurise these madmen.
We seem to be sleepwalking into a possible nightmare, and phases like "a largely phantom Islamic terror" are most unhelpful.
We should realise that our foreign policy is putting us all in grave danger.
We can only push so long until the dam bursts and we are washed to oblivion


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:13 PM

We should realise that our foreign policy is putting us all in grave danger.

Couldn't agree with you more. As Malcolm X would have said (and did say) the chickens are coming home to roost. U.S. foreigh policy has been creating enemies since the Eisenhower Administration.

The difference this time around is that they're fighting back-
Hay! don't they know better than to mess with Uncle Sam?- something the U.S. isn't used to, having for so long having irrationally considered itself "exempt" from the troubles the rest of the world had to face.

No more.

However, the "Muslim Menace" is just the bogeyman du jour, taking the place of the Late Lamented Commies & before them the Eastern European
immigrants were going to destroy America, and before them the Catholics & on & on & on.

The U.S simply can't seem to function without some bogeyman or other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:12 AM

"Couldn't agree with you more. As Malcolm X would have said (and did say) the chickens are coming home to roost. U.S. foreigh policy has been creating enemies since the Eisenhower Administration.

The difference this time around is that they're fighting back-
Hay! don't they know better than to mess with Uncle Sam?- something the U.S. isn't used to, having for so long having irrationally considered itself "exempt" from the troubles the rest of the world had to face.

No more.

However, the "Muslim Menace" is just the bogeyman du jour, taking the place of the Late Lamented Commies & before them the Eastern European
immigrants were going to destroy America, and before them the Catholics & on & on & on."




So, the meanace is real, and because of our past policies, but also imaginary? Pick one, and argue it- That way you have SOME chance of being correct.


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