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BS: 50% of school pupils below average

Mr Red 20 Sep 06 - 12:01 PM
Strollin' Johnny 20 Sep 06 - 12:03 PM
jeffp 20 Sep 06 - 12:03 PM
MMario 20 Sep 06 - 12:04 PM
Mr Red 20 Sep 06 - 12:08 PM
Wolfgang 20 Sep 06 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Mrr 20 Sep 06 - 12:25 PM
Mr Red 20 Sep 06 - 12:26 PM
MMario 20 Sep 06 - 12:29 PM
Mr Red 20 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM
bobad 20 Sep 06 - 12:45 PM
Rapparee 20 Sep 06 - 12:47 PM
MMario 20 Sep 06 - 12:48 PM
Rapparee 20 Sep 06 - 12:53 PM
John MacKenzie 20 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM
Bill D 20 Sep 06 - 01:01 PM
MarkS 20 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,number 6 20 Sep 06 - 01:48 PM
pdq 20 Sep 06 - 01:54 PM
NH Dave 20 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 06 - 04:00 PM
Gurney 20 Sep 06 - 04:20 PM
JohnInKansas 20 Sep 06 - 04:32 PM
ard mhacha 20 Sep 06 - 04:43 PM
Lighter 20 Sep 06 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Tomkins 20 Sep 06 - 05:05 PM
SINSULL 20 Sep 06 - 05:48 PM
Bill D 20 Sep 06 - 05:58 PM
Tootler 20 Sep 06 - 07:24 PM
Becca72 20 Sep 06 - 07:39 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 20 Sep 06 - 07:45 PM
pdq 20 Sep 06 - 07:52 PM
Rapparee 20 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM
JohnInKansas 21 Sep 06 - 12:09 AM
GUEST 21 Sep 06 - 12:18 AM
JohnInKansas 21 Sep 06 - 02:10 AM
Strollin' Johnny 21 Sep 06 - 04:04 AM
Geoff the Duck 21 Sep 06 - 05:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Sep 06 - 06:27 AM
Mr Red 21 Sep 06 - 07:55 AM
clueless don 21 Sep 06 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Jon 21 Sep 06 - 09:14 AM
Becca72 21 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM
Becca72 21 Sep 06 - 09:32 AM
GUEST 21 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM
Strollin' Johnny 21 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM
GUEST 21 Sep 06 - 11:36 AM
Gurney 22 Sep 06 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,Nomad 22 Sep 06 - 05:11 AM
Uncle_DaveO 22 Sep 06 - 09:12 AM
JohnInKansas 22 Sep 06 - 01:26 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 06 - 02:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 06 - 05:14 PM
Strollin' Johnny 22 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM
Bernard 23 Sep 06 - 10:51 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 06 - 05:00 PM
Mr Happy 24 Sep 06 - 02:03 PM
Mr Happy 24 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM
Mr Happy 24 Sep 06 - 02:12 PM
GUEST 24 Sep 06 - 02:13 PM
GUEST 24 Sep 06 - 04:03 PM
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Subject: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:01 PM

and the other 2 thirds can't do simple arithmatic too well nyever...


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:03 PM

Bet there spelings rubish to! Bring back the Grammer Skools.
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:03 PM

You should come to Lake Wobegone where the men are all strong, the women are all beautiful, and the children are all above average.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: MMario
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:04 PM

?? 50% of school students are above average too.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:08 PM

Lake Wobegone - I am there every Saturday - if about a year or two after the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:21 PM

There are 50% above and below average only if the distribution of the variable measured is symmetrical.

So, there are for instance in most countries much more than 50% of the people whose income is below average, because the distribution of incomes is slanted.

Yes, there could be two third below average, but there could not be two third below the median.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:25 PM

That's mean, ha ha!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:26 PM

You try telling 99% of the people about median, when politicians use the terms indiscriminantly.

50% below average is a simplistic statement because the general public can cope with it.

Flippant I wasn't - I made the point and it wasn't explicit.

Anyway 76.34% of all statistics are made-up on the spot.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: MMario
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:29 PM

wolfgang - I stand corrected - and admit that mean, median, average, etc all confused the heck out of me in school - but part of that is the incorrect common usage.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM

My point is - statistics are meaningless without context, and incomprehensible with sufficient context to satisfy logic.

It is statistically possible that all statistics are wrong.

And it takes just a bit longer for even quick thinkers to spot the operative word and ascribe the correct meaning. Assuming they have enough mind-space and interest to digest the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: bobad
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:45 PM

Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
Evan Esar

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:47 PM

A whopping 40% of the sick days taken by my employees are on Monday or Friday!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: MMario
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:48 PM

they are smack on the bell curve then, if you are only open the 5 weekdays.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:53 PM

Well, of those who work Saturdays 40% are sick on Tuesday or Saturday too.

You just can't GET decent workers anymore! And the liberal courts won't let me flog 'em or keelhaul 'em or anything, either!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

When I received written job applications in my pre retirement days, the standard of the grammar etc was apalling. One of the most important things a child can be taught in school is how to write a decent job application surely?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:01 PM

"The average man is slightly below normal."

(I forget the author)


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: MarkS
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM

"Half the people in my district make below the median income." I actually heard a politician say this at a hearing in Washington, looking for more federal aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:48 PM

Thanks for that post bobad.

Very good !!

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: pdq
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:54 PM

50% of all quotes are credited to Will Rogers, Mark Twain or H. L. Mencken.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: NH Dave
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM

Giok,

I used to substitute in a Vocational School that was part of the high school in a local town. Along with purely vocational courses like carpentry, computer repair, cooking, electrical wiring, welding, and small engine repair, they also taught "getting a job", a course that worked the kid through the process of writing a resume, and setting up a package that included the resume along with some of the work the student had done over the past year. By the time the kid graduated he could walk into any local firm, offer his package to the Human Resource person, and be well on his way to a job, before the graduates of the regular academic classes had even gotten his foot in the door.

Throughout my college and post college years I always regretted not taking short hand and typing, asa these two courses woud have made my college and early professional life so much easier. This was way before the idea of personal computers was even thought of.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:00 PM

oh. spare me


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:20 PM

If you have your head in the cooker and your feet in the 'frig, then on average you must be comfortable.

Statistics seem to show what the statistician wants them to show.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:32 PM

For practical purposes, if the distribution is according to the standard "bell curve," the average, mean, and median coincide.

If ONE "genius" appears to distort the curve, then the "average" is moved up, while the median remains unchanged, leaving 50% of the total population "below average."

Similarly, a small group of "total duds" could pull the average down, leaving the appearance that a larger percentage of those in the sample are "above average." Failures can make the statistics look better (if one tells the right lies) as long as the failures can be confined to a small group that fails in grand style.

Of course, one would never accuse schools, administrators, and politicians of studying how to "look better without doing anything."

???

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:43 PM

Statistics or not, once again the N Ireland schools have had superior marks than their England and Wales counterparts, year after year the NI schools are tops.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:53 PM

"You know how dumb the average guy is? Well, by definition, half of them are even dumber than that." --The Rev. Ivan Stang.

He meant "the median guy," but in this case, what's in a word ?


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST,Tomkins
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:05 PM

50% of school pupils below average

Thash rrumblish tht is. Ov jusleve scrool and iym talla thn avrige (shees onle 4'4)


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:48 PM

I have been amusing myself looking at on-line employment opportunites. The best was a newspaper that needed a "detail oriented writter". I kid you not.

And they write their own ads.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:58 PM

"What hath got writ?"


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:24 PM

Statistics is about quantifying uncertainty and it does it very precisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Becca72
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:39 PM

I went on a job interview a few months back and the attorney I was interviewed by gave me a typing test soley on the use of commas. Seems the assistant who had left the position (moved to a higher position within the company) just "never could get 'em down" and he was looking for someone "better" at it. He was actually amazed that I got 100%.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:45 PM

My favorite cartoon from my statistics days was one showing a sign next to a lake that said "Average depth 3 feet". A man is standing in the water which is over his head; he is standing in a trough in the lake, while the rest of the lakes floor is only about hip deep.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: pdq
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:52 PM

Actually, the correct quote about Lake Wobegon is:

                "the women are strong, the men are good looking, and all the children are above average"


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM

I actually reviewed a job application once in which the applicant misspelled his first name -- three different ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:09 AM

A couple of days ago I received a "survey" from one of the major "statistical" outfits asking for my comments on my satisfaction with tech support received recently from a printer manufacturer. My responses were not particularly favorable to the manufacturer, but the questionaire gave me absolutely NO PLACE to indicate that the problem I had WAS NOT RESOLVED by the manufacturer's support facilities.

One question, in fact, offered the options of my being "somewhat satisfied," "moderately satisfied" or "extremely satisfied" and refused to proceed to the next item until I entered one of the choices offered.

At the end of the "survey" I was given the opportunity to indicate "what negative comments I have made about the manufacturer." One comment that I offered was "they hire incompetent survey firms who are badly in need of copy editors and proof readers."

Just to be honest with them, I'll say again here:

...1 hires incompetent survey firms who are badly in need of copy editors and proof readers.

Of course it was quite obvious that the questionnaire was designed to get a "statistical result" that would not be offensive to the people paying the bill for the survey.


1 The company should remain anonymous, but their initials are HP or something like that. My comments on the survey were related only to their inkjet printers, as I've been quite satisfied with their laser printers (so far).

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:18 AM

Jim Dinning, when he was Minister of Education years ago in Alberta said, "We want ALL of our students to be above average." (I shit you not.) He has a chance to become the next Premier of Alberta.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:10 AM

Guest -

Difficult to do, but not so hard to get close. All you have to do is "dumb down" all the good students so that the average drops within easy reach of nearly all. Then (as some school systems in the US do) you define "special categories" for the ESL and otherwise "learning disadvantaged" ones to make the ones who would otherwise appear as below average "disappear" from the records.

Sort of like the Nazis did - solve the unemployment problem by sending anyone without a job to a labor camp.

Note: Not calling anyone a Nazi. Just pointing out that sometimes bizarre accounting and manipulating of the statistics solves political problems.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 04:04 AM

Becca72 - you may be a whizz with commas, but you can't spell 'solely'! LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:36 AM

Statistics is a tool which was invented by Biologists for use by biologists in bilogical studies. It is not about what the figures look like. It is a means of determing whether the result you appear to see is likely to be a valid conclusion.
Anybody else claiming to use statistics is a CHARLATAN.
Statistics is not the bunch of figures. They are meaningless without correct critical analysis.
Quack!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:27 AM

I'm above average!

With regard to number of arms, legs & eyes.

CHEERS
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 07:55 AM

"50% of all quotes are credited to Will Rogers, Mark Twain or H. L. Mencken."

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Our UK Radio programme "Quote, Unquote" reckon - that by far the majority of quotes come from the Bible or Shakespear. No figure is put on them.

eg - "what's in a name? For that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: clueless don
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 08:30 AM

The mean, median, and mode are all types of "average", so one must make clear which "average" one is talking about, unless it is clear from context. (and there are other "averages", e.g. the geometric mean, the harmonic mean, etc.)

I recommend the chapter "The Well-Chosen Average" in the great book "How to lie with statistics" by Darrell Huff.

Don (statistician by trade)


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:14 AM

I'm probably a charlatin, Gtg, but the only application I was ever taught (on a unit, I think called "Quantative Methods", on some course, ) for statistics was in engineering - quality control related - something about trying ensure production was OK based on the samples taken IIRC.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Becca72
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM

Johnny, it's called a typo and it happens to the best of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Becca72
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:32 AM

Oh, and "whiz" only has one z...


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM

When I take a whizzz it doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM

Ok Becca, wind yer neck in - it was a leg-pull(note LOL!). :-) :-)
Unfortunately my preference for the 'Dandy' and the 'Beano' over the OED as a kid led me to believe there were 2 'z's in whiz (Billy the Whizz had two 'z's). :-)

I stand corrected.
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:36 AM

It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 12:10 AM

Good point, Nigel Parsons. So, in the Land of Blind Men, you'ld be King AND Emperor?

Me too. Wonder where it is?


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST,Nomad
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:11 AM

When I moved from the US to UK, the average IQ of each country was reduced


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:12 AM

MarkS told us:

"Half the people in my district make below the median income." I actually heard a politician say this at a hearing in Washington, looking for more federal aid.

The politician may be correct, depending on the median he's referring to. I think you've assumed that he referring to the median of his district (which is a reasonable thought, I'll admit), but suppose he really means that "Half the people in my district make below the United States median income."   He might be correct but poor at stating what he means.

I tend to think that he's just muddleheaded, which I think was your point.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 01:26 PM

That "half the people make below median income" is ridiculous only because it's a tautology, since "median" defines the point in a ranked group for which half are above and half are below the "median point."

Nigel's declaration about being "above average" would almost certainly be true if the sample population is small towns in rural Kansas, where many have dwindled to counting chickens to get a large enough "population" to keep their post office; but would quite obviously be untrue (one would expect) for the sample population of voters in Texas where large numbers of cows often appear to have cast ballots.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 02:21 PM

Camel: A horse designed by a committee.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:14 PM

"One of the most important things a child can be taught in school is how to write a decent job application surely?"

Punctuation!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Bernard
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 10:51 AM

Nine out of ten people form 90% of the population...

True, but not very useful!!

63% of the time, statistics don't stand up to close scrutiny.

!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 05:00 PM

. . . and the other 47% of the time they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:03 PM

'simple arithmatic' - tres difficile pour vous Monsieur Rouge!

D'ye mean arithmetic?


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM

'typing test soley'







oh soley, soley!


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:12 PM

'Statistics is a tool' - is that singular or plural?


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:13 PM

' "what's in a name? For that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" '

And a chrysantehemum would be easier to spell. Crhysamenthim. Chyrsamthenun. Whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: 50% of school pupils below average
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 04:03 PM

Photo of an above-average pupil.


WAAAAAAAAAY above-average pupils.


WAAAAAAAAAAAY below-average pupils.


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