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What makes a good hymn?

Bert 18 Mar 13 - 12:35 PM
Haruo 18 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM
Haruo 18 Mar 13 - 11:52 AM
Don Firth 03 Oct 06 - 08:15 AM
Haruo 03 Oct 06 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,boston camerata website 19 Sep 06 - 10:30 PM
Haruo 04 Sep 06 - 02:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Sep 06 - 09:18 PM
Haruo 03 Sep 06 - 08:13 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM
Haruo 03 Sep 06 - 05:55 PM
the lemonade lady 03 Sep 06 - 03:05 PM
Hrothgar 03 Sep 06 - 04:50 AM
Haruo 02 Sep 06 - 10:29 PM
GUEST 02 Sep 06 - 09:36 PM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 06 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Allen in OZ 02 Sep 06 - 07:12 PM
Haruo 01 Sep 06 - 11:38 PM
Deckman 01 Sep 06 - 10:49 PM
JennieG 01 Sep 06 - 09:49 PM
Haruo 01 Sep 06 - 02:25 PM
Haruo 24 Aug 06 - 04:12 AM
Paul Burke 24 Aug 06 - 03:30 AM
Wilfried Schaum 24 Aug 06 - 02:50 AM
Haruo 23 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM
Joe Offer 23 Aug 06 - 01:43 PM
Haruo 22 Aug 06 - 02:17 PM
Don Firth 22 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM
Haruo 22 Aug 06 - 07:36 AM
Paul Burke 22 Aug 06 - 07:30 AM
Haruo 22 Aug 06 - 07:27 AM
catspaw49 22 Aug 06 - 05:05 AM
Paul Burke 22 Aug 06 - 04:21 AM
Wilfried Schaum 22 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM
Deckman 18 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM
GUEST,Allen in OZ 18 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM
Liz the Squeak 18 Aug 06 - 06:47 PM
Deckman 18 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM
Don Firth 18 Aug 06 - 04:42 PM
oggie 18 Aug 06 - 04:34 PM
Haruo 18 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM
Deckman 18 Aug 06 - 03:47 PM
JennieG 18 Aug 06 - 05:45 AM
Joe Offer 18 Aug 06 - 04:16 AM
Joe Offer 18 Aug 06 - 01:44 AM
Haruo 18 Aug 06 - 12:47 AM
Deckman 17 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM
Tootler 17 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM
Haruo 17 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM
Haruo 17 Aug 06 - 05:51 AM
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Bert
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:35 PM

I would say, one to a God in whose name nobody has been killed.


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM

It's in the Hymnary.org database (2 instances but no full text), and I see the author is Christopher Idle, which sounds right.


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 11:52 AM

Rev. Springett just supplied (via Joe) the source of the MEN OF HARLECH hymn text above. He says it's from Church Family Worship, 1988, out of print but available from Amazon UK. In case anyone else wants to look it up...

BTW this thread was a great exercise that I recall with fondness. ;-)


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:15 AM

Right you are. Sorry.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:35 AM

Nigel supplied me with the promised scan of Gweddi Wladgarol (Gwladgarol was a misspelling, the Gw here mutates to W), from which I have made a midi file here.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: GUEST,boston camerata website
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:30 PM

for don firth:

http://www.bostoncamerata.com/

(he misspelled it)


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 02:26 AM

Nigel,

Blaenwern, Hyfrydol, Llanfair and Aberystwyth (Parry) I am quite familiar with, the others on your list not, though I find
Calon Lan, Rachie, Trewen, and Llan Llynfi (apparently not to be confused with Llanfyllni!) in The CyberHymnal, and Blaencefn in the Christian Classics Ethereal Hymnary. So Gweddi Gwladgarol (which I take to mean "Patriot's Prayer") is the only one you mention that I can't find by Google, and which I would therefore much appreciate your posting where I and all can see and hear.

A few others I certainly think of as fitting your definition would be Cwm Rhondda, Rhuddlan, Llef, (and pretty much any other tune name starting with Ll or Rh, or having a "w" masquerading as a vowel), Bryn Calfaria, Gwalchmai, St. Denio, Ar hyd y nos, Nos galan, and Rhyfelgyrch gwŷr Harlech...

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:18 PM

At the risk of seeming 'parochial' (and how apposite is that) Any hymn with a good Welsh hymn tune, which allows four-part harmony (busked if necessary).

Tunes:
Gweddi Gwladgarol,
Blaenwern
Calon Lan
Rachie
Hyfrydol
Trewen
Blaencefn
Llanfair
Llan Llynfi
Aberystwyth.

Of course, the words also need to hold meaning. But if the words are in Welsh I can only sing, I can't translate fast enough to sing and translate together!

CHEERS
Nigel (who has all these tunes in a hymn book so I can scan & send them to anyone who wants them{4-part harmony with tonic sol-fa as well})


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 08:13 PM

Of course a dislike of hymns (for whatever reason, and I doubt it's unique to England) is a good reason not to bother to read the whole of the thread ;-) ... you don't say, sir, whether you count yourself among the many you speak for, but assuming you do, sir, then praise God that you are in a forum where there are so many other things to read, sir.

Sincerely, albeit without puppy-like devotion, etc., etc.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM

I have not read the whole of the thread but would make the point that for many, even though they maybe vaguely (or more) theist, the best hymns are those sung elsewhere by someone else. It is not a matter of intolerability of the relevant religion (although so many orgnaised religions are to be blamed for so much despite the best qualitites that individual subscribers to them may have some of the time) as the English dislike for the wearing of the heart on the sleeve...

All that sincerity and puppy-like devotion is a bit embarrassing, don't you know?


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 05:55 PM

I think in the religious sense the preferred spelling is "hyrrh".

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:05 PM

A surprised h(y)er


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 04:50 AM

Haven't been into this thread for a while.

Haruo, you are right about "Adoremus IN aeternam" - typo and poor proofreading.


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Subject: Attrib add: He's Everything to Me
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 10:29 PM

Ralph Carmichael, b. 1927, © 1964


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 09:36 PM

a good hymn ought to haqve a tune that is pleasing and singable and feels somehow a bit familiar... and the words ought to be GOOD poetry as well. I play for a UCC church where all too often the hymnas are so text heavy with ideology that they are no fun to sing.

I have a question sir, incase you know anything about this other subject: How can I ascertain if Greenwood Laddie is a ballad? I have to sing in a contest and they could not tell me!

thanks so much.
mary jo.
    Mary Jo - see The Green Wood Laddie (click). I'd think you'd call it a ballad, but the ballad purists probably wouldn't - but it's up to the contest promoters to define what they mean by "ballad" - better to discuss the song in the other thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 07:44 PM

I've spent much of my life campaigning against bad music in Catholic churches. We have a choir member who likes to sing this song, and he persuaded the previous music director to sing it solo several times. I hated it.
The other night, I heard him sing it for the current choir director - and I was very pleased to see her vive it the "thumbs down."
It kinda reminds me of people who sing a slightly-altered version of Littly Peggy March's "I Love Him" and call it churhc music.
-Joe-


He's Everything to Me
(author unknown - perhaps he's in some sort of Songwriter Protection Program)
Haruo says it's by Ralph Carmichael, b. 1927, © 1964

In the stars His handiwork I see,
On the wind He speaks with majesty,
Tho He ruleth over land and sea,
What is that to me?

I will celebrate Nativity,
for it has a place in history
Sure, He came to set His people free
What is that to me?

Till by faith I met Him face to face
and I felt the wonder of his grace
Then I knew that He was more
than just a God who didn't care
That lived a way out there

And now He walks beside
me day by day,
Ever watching over me lest I stray,
Helping me to find that narrow way
He's Everything To Me.

source: http://www.doga.org.hk/heiseverythingtome.html

Recorded by the Fabulous Blackwood Brothers - listen here (click).


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: GUEST,Allen in OZ
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 07:12 PM

Haruo's hypothesis supports the theory that good hymns are those written by sophistical rhetoreticians inebriated by the exuberance of their own verbosity. The greater the grovelling, the greater the hymn.

Good on you Haruo..you have cheered us up down under (an oxymoron?)

Allen


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:38 PM

Pavlina's the flyfisherperoffspring in the family, Bob.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:49 PM

Hauro ... that may be all well and good, but show me a modern hymn writer that can tie a "Purple Peril" on a number 12 mustad hook, using a real Blue Herron feather for the streamer, and I'll show a real STEELHEADER ... anytime! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson ... with a plagle cadience!!!!


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: JennieG
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:49 PM

Haruo - that is a wonderful description!

Cheers
JennieG


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 02:25 PM

Rather funny piece on the difference between praise songs and hymns, copied from a post by Carlton Higginbotham on the Hymn Society's Discussion Board (Hymn vs. Song) but not original with him:
Re: Hymn vs. Song

Posted By: Carlton Higginbotham
Date: Tuesday, 21 February 2006 at 2:31 p.m.

In Response To: Hymn vs. Song (Miriam Meglan)

    OK. I can't resist. This is my favorite explanation of the difference between hymn and song, discovered somewhere in cyberspace and passed to me by a pastor friend:

    POINT

    An old farmer went to the city one weekend and attended the big city church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. Well," said the farmer, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang praise choruses instead of hymns."

    "Praise choruses," said his wife, "What are those?"

    "Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like hymns, only different." said the farmer.

    "Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife.

    The farmer said, "Well it's like this — If I were to say to you: 'Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well that would be a hymn. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you: 'Martha, Martha, Martha, Oh, Martha, MARTHA, MARTHA, the cows, the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows, the white cows, the black and white cows, the COWS, COWS, COWS, are in the corn, are in the corn, are in the corn, are in the corn, the CORN, CORN, CORN.' Then, if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well that would be a praise chorus."

    COUNTER-POINT

    A young, new Christian went to his local church usually, but one weekend attended a small town church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well," said the young man, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang hymns instead of regular songs."

    "Hymns," said his wife, "What are those?"

    "Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like regular songs, only different," said the young man.

    "Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife.

    The young man said, "Well it's like this — If I were to say to you, 'Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well that would be a regular song. If on the other hand, I were to say to you:

    Oh Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry
    Inclinest thine ear to the words of my mouth.
    Turn thou thy whole wondrous ear by and by
    To the righteous, inimitable, glorious truth.

    For the way of the animals, who can explain
    There in their heads is no shadow of sense,
    Hearkenest they in God's sun or his rain
    Unless from the mild, tempting corn they are fenced.

    Yea those cows in glad bovine, rebellious delight,
    Have broke free their shackles, their warm pens eschewed.
    Then goaded by minions of darkness and night
    They all my mild Chilliwack sweet corn have chewed.

    So look to that bright shining day by and by,
    Where all foul corruptions of earth are reborn.
    Where no vicious animal makes my soul cry
    And I no longer see those foul cows in the corn.

    "Then if I were to do only verses one, three, and four and do a key change on the last verse, well that would be a hymn."

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:12 AM

Originally the basic idea was simply number: "thou/thee/thy/thine" were singular, and "ye/you/your/yourn" were plural. The King James Version (Authorized 1611) of the Bible was written (as were other influential versions of that era, such as the Geneva Bible) with this pronominal system still in place. Thus, in the King James Version (which remained overwhelmingly influential in Anglophone Christian usage for over 300 years) God, king, commoner and slave were each severally addressed as "thou", while more than one of any of the above was "ye".

Then the idea came along that it was respectful to "magnify" one's elders and one's betters by pluralizing them, and conversely that it was appropriate for one's elders and betters to "thou" one. This was the juncture at which the Quakers developed their signature usage: they insisted on "theeing" everybody regardless of worldly station. Some other well-known languages still maintain this kind of "plural = respect" approach to the second person: consider French tu/vous, German du/Sie, etc. (Some languages went a step further, developing more ornate terms for the respectful, sometimes pseudoplural, pronoun. Consider Spanish "tu/Usted(es)", where "Usted" is a contraction of "vuestra Merced" ("your Mercy"), or Portuguese, where "o Senhor" (literally "the Lord", roughly like English "milord") is the polite second person form.)

Then (perhaps with the rise of democratic ideals, perhaps independent thereof) the respectful form was, in most Anglophone communities, extended to address equals and inferiors. And further, the subject and object forms coalesced into "you/you/your/yours" (and, for many "theeing" Quakers, "thou" disappeared, "thee" becoming both object and subject forms.

As far as I know there are no local dialects that maintain "thou/thee/thy/thine", but certainly there are some individuals and perhaps some small groups that consciously perpetuate the usage; but as a conscious archaizing usage, not as "normal English the way we speak it".

I could be wrong. Maybe there's some overwhelmingly traditional-Quaker enclave someplace where the "theeing" comes naturally. (Sorry about the thread creep. Paul asked. It's his fault. (pointing fingers)...) ;-)

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:30 AM

It's odd that prayers refer to God as 'thou', when Quakers were jailed in the 17th century for saying 'thou' to mere gentlemen. They jumped the wromg way; within 100 years 'thou' had become dialectical.

Question for US folks: do any US dialects retain the 'thou' form (another thread maybe)?


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:50 AM

But sometimes the text should be changed for oecumenical and brotherly reasons:
"Keep us, o Lord, by thy word and stop the pope's and Turk's murder" was adopted as the battle hymn of the reformation period. Now the second line is changed into "and stop the murder of your foes" (but I'm still in favour of the original version - singing it I still can hear the step of the Lutheran pikes)


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM

I know people who to this day don't feel like they can address God pronominally except by using "Thou/Thee", and I know others (native English speakers) who are actually confused and mildly disconcerted by the very occurrence of "thou" or "thee", sort of the way most people are these days if you say you're y-clept Joe Offer instead of called Joe Offer. In other words, language change doesn't occur in all parts of a language community at the same rate, even when the direction of change (elimination of the separate singular second-person pronouns) is pretty universal. I think many of the denominational hymnals go a bit overboard in trying to modernize (and inclusivize) hymn texts. At the very least, if you're looking to modernize a rhymed text where the rhyming words include "thou" and "thee", you should just hold your horses until you've got a replacement text that is just as good and just as well rhymed. To eliminate the rhyme in the interests of saying "You" or "your" where the old text rhymed with "Thee" or "thine" is, I think, almost the unpardonable sin.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:43 PM

I have mixed feelings about "updating" the lyrics of traditional hymns. I can't say I'm completely against it, but I think it needs to be done with extreme moderation and good taste.
There are people who get upset by the removal of "Thee" and "Thy" from a hymn. If it's a well-known hymn, I'd agree. Sometimes, an old and little-used hymn can be resurrected with a few changes. If it's a hymn that people know and love, changing words can cause unnecessary discord.
I'm surprised and pleased to see some modern Catholic hymnals resurrecting tunes from Southern Harmony and Sacred Harp, with completely new lyrics.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:17 PM

One thing that probably helps a hymn is if its syntax isn't the sort that has been unpleasantly inverted by linguistic evolution. (Can make you empathize with the linguistic creationists.) A good example is Watts's "Who Shall the Lord's Elect Condemn", the first line of which now appears to mean "Whom shall the Lord's Elect condemn?" when it actually meant "Who shall (or Who's in a position to) condemn the Lord's Elect?"

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM

Mom:   "What did you do in Sunday school this morning?"
Kid:   "We sang songs about funny animals."
Mom:   "Funny animals!??"
Kid:   "Yeah. 'Gladly, the cross-eyed bear.'"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:36 AM

and blessed is the Fruit of the Loom Jesus


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:30 AM

When the Latin Mass was translated into Enlish back in the 60s, The Our Father followed a short preamble that went: "Mindful of Our Saviour's bidding, and of the Prairie Tortoise, we take heart and say..."

Sadly dropped from the current liturgy.


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:27 AM

Not to mention "Will the Turtle Be Unbroken?" and "Lead on, O Kinky Turtle" (obviously these two mondegreens share a heresy).

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:05 AM

I think Don Firth has it right. Any great hymn must have a great mondegreen like "What a friend we have in cheeses." Then there is the one about Andy........

"Andy walks with me,
Andy talks with me.
Andy tells me I am his own."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:21 AM

"Gloria in excelsis (ĕksĕl`sĭs)"

It was always pronounced more like "ex- Chelsea's" at St. Lukes. And ceoli (as in Regina Coeli) was pronounced "chayley". You wouldn't want to say "coily" or "ceilidh" would you?


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM

In addition to Don's wonderful cheese hymn:

There also is The Chinese Maiden's Lament to the same tune.


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM

Speaking of "A-MEN!" This thread reminded me of a story: back about 1954, or so, my best buddy "Lauren" and I both sang in the rather large choir of a church in our town. Lauren was a consumate musician, cursed with perfect pitch. And what was worse, his MOTHER was the choir director.

This was also the year that we discovered the wonderful jazz music of Dave Brubeck. While I played only the guitar, Lauren played every instrument in the orchestra.

We decided that the "A-MEN" needed a little spicing up. So one Sunday, at the close of the final piece, rather than sing the standard Plagle A-MEN, we both sang the last note UP ONE HALF STEP! That made it a perfect flatted sixth. Of course we stood out like sore thumbs, and every member of the choir first turned looked at us, then they all cracked up. We actually brought down the house.

The only that wasn't pleased was Lauren's mother ... did I mention that she was the choir director? CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: GUEST,Allen in OZ
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM

A popular hymn sung at weddings is " Rescue the Perishing"

AD in OZ


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 06:47 PM

Oggie - that would be 'Will you come and answer me if I but call your name'.. struck me that way too when I first heard it.

I was taught that ANY verse that mentioned the Big Three was a Doxology and should always be followed by an Amen. The dictionary has it as "a formulaic ascription of praise to God, encountered in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic tradition. The best-known doxologies of the Christian church are Gloria in excelsis Gloria in excelsis (ĕksĕl`sĭs) [Lat.,=glory in the highest]."

LTS


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM

TOO FUNNY! Bob


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 04:42 PM

One of the television channels we have in our cable package is "Classic Arts Showcase." No commercials, and it's sort of like MTV for grown-ups:    as the evening progresses, we might see an excerpt from a concert or recital, a scene from an opera, a performance by an early music group, a bit of ballet, sometimes a clip or two from a classic old movie, brief interviews with singers, conductors, composers, actors, and such. Sort of a smorgasbord of the Arts.

Anyway, one clip that pops up from time to time is by the Boston Camarata. I wasn't able to find a web site for them, but judging from the film clip, they consist of a quartet of singers, two men and two women. They're singing "Shall We Gather at the River." Simple and straightforward. They're accompanied only by a man playing a simple accompaniment on a small parlor guitar, and toward the then, a flute comes in. It's really nice in its simplicity.

Umm . . . here's one of my favorites:
What a friend we have in cheeses,
Mozzarella, Cheddar, Swiss!
Bleu and Limberger's sweet breezes
Lingering like a lover's kiss.
Humble milk's apotheosis,
Muenster, Provolone, Brie
Damn cholesterol's thrombosis
Cheese is Gouda stuff by me!

Heed the U. S. Dairy Council,
Keep the Gruyere on the shelf.
Even just a tiny ounce'll
Give you vitamin B-12.
Gather, pilgrims at the deli
Buying Edam and Havarti,
Wedges moist and cold and smelly,
Bring home lots and have a party!
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: oggie
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 04:34 PM

At my godson's christening they started a modern hymn that I didn't know the words to, but the tune sounded familiar. It was all about commitment etc. Halfway through I got a fit of the giggles as I realised the tune was 'The shearings not for you'!

All the best

oggie (aka Steve)


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM

Joe wrote The Doxology ("Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow") is a trinitarian verse sung at the beginning or end of various psalms - and it's often sung by itself to the tune of "Old Hundredth" when the offering is brought forward in Protestant churches. The Trinity is not part of Jewish belief, so there aren't any trinitarian verses in the Psalms.

Two things:

First, that doxology (not the only one of course, texts like the Gloria Patri are also doxologies, as are some brief passages in Paul's letters etc etc, but this one is so deeply entrenched in the churches that use it to bless the offering that their people call it "The Doxology") is actually (originally) the last stanza of Awake, My Soul, and with the Sun by Thomas Ken, 1674. This hymn is normally not sung to Old Hundredth (if indeed it is sung at all; one wonders how many decades it's been since a congregation sang the whole 12 stanzas!

Second, while the Psalms in their original form contain no overt Trinitarian formulas, and indeed no overt references to Jesus, this did not keep folks like Watts and Montgomery from coming up with great Advent hymns cast as metrical psalms: Joy to the World! and Hail to the Lord's Anointed come to mind.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 03:47 PM

I'll be DELIGHTED to stand in the corner ... it's already full of people I like! CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: JennieG
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 05:45 AM

Tootler,

I was brought up in the Presbyterian church, and we also sang Doxology to Old Hundredth - I had forgotten, it's been a long time.

Bob Deckman, you are a very naughty boy, go and stand in the corner *grin*! I love it.

Cheers
JennieG


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 04:16 AM

There's an interesting thread on "Old Hundredth" (Psalm 100 - "All People That on Earth Do Dwell") here (click). The Doxology ("Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow") is a trinitarian verse sung at the beginning or end of various psalms - and it's often sung by itself to the tune of "Old Hundredth" when the offering is brought forward in Protestant churches. The Trinity is not part of Jewish belief, so there aren't any trinitarian verses in the Psalms.

My Companion to the Baptist Hymnal says the Doxology is usually sung with Psalms 104, 113, 115, 117, 135, 146, 147, 148, 149, and 150 - with no mention of Psalm 100, although I'm sure I've heard the Doxology sung with Psalm 100. Maybe not. I associate the tune of "Old Hundredth" with "From All That Dwell Below the Skies," which I believe is Psalm 117.

There are so many old hymns with the same meter, that you can use a wide variety of tunes with each lyric.


-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:44 AM

That "Hail Holy Queen" is the sublime hymn "Salve Regina" in Latin. We sang that at the end of night prayers, every night during my eight years in a Catholic seminary in Milwaukee. We turned out all the lights in chapel except for the one on the statue of Mary, and sang a cappella with a couple hundred male voices. It was absolutely beautiful, every night.

Of course, we warmed up for night prayers by huddling outside the chapel and smoking, singing Engerbert Humperdinck songs.....

Ya gotta mix a little tacky with your sublime.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 12:47 AM

What a friend we have in Jesus!
Christ Almighty, what a pal...

how does the rest of it go?

Haruo


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM

SHEEEEUUUUUHHHH! You guys are getting   W A A A Y too serious. Let me lighten the mood ... fur keerist sake!!!

Some years I was living with a family while I built them a deck. Their home was a six hour drive, so I stayed with them during the week. Thanksgiving happened to fall during that project, so I worked that morning and then shared Thanksgiving dinner with them.

I knew that the Father of the family was strongly Catholic and the Mother was not. At the beginning of the meal, Sean, the Father, asked that we all join hands and then asked ME to say grace! SURPRISE, SURPRISE!! Me, Bob Nelson, I'm 'gonna say GRACE! The last time I said grace the roof collapsed and killed 19 people.

I looked at Sean, and I said: "O.K. YOU ASKED FOR IT!"

Then I sang, in my most reverent voice:

"JESUS LOVES ME THIS I KNOW,
FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO,
WHEN I DIE HE'LL CLEAN MY SOUL,
WHAT A ... dirty little job for JESUS!"

THE LOOK ON SEAN'S FACE WAS PRICELESS. I then looked at D'Arcy, his wife, and she was laughing so hard she started to slide off her chair. The I looked at the two teenage boys, and they were staring at me with their mouths hanging open.

OH ... IT WAS SWEELL Cheers, Bob(deckman)Nelom


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM

The Doxology or the Psalm? Old hundredth is a great tune, but its most frequent application is with the text "Praise God, from whom all blessings flow"

Hmm! I only ever remember Old hundredth being used for the metrical Psalm 100 "All people that on Earth do dwell". But then I was brought up in the C of E. It may be different in other traditions.

For interest here is the full text, taken from an 18th century Psalter.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
All people that on Earth do dwell,
Sing to the Lord with cheerful Voice,
Him serve with fear his praise forth tell,
Come ye before him and rejoice.

The Lord ye know is God indeed,
Without our aid he did us make,
We are his flock he doth us feed,
And for his sheep he doth us take.

O enter then his gates with praise,
Without our aid he did us make:
We are his flock, he doth us feed,
And for his sheep he doth us take.

For why? The Lord our God is good,
his mercy is for ever sure;
His truth at all times firmly stood,
And shall from age to age endure.

Source: "The Whole Book of Psalms, Collected in English Metre, By Thomas Sternhold, John Hopkins, and Others" Found at;
Gallery Music


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Subject: Lyr Add: The Fury of the Wind, the Raging o t Sea
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM

Here's a relatively recent hymn text, written by Eric Schumacher in Biloxi, Mississippi, during the "calm" between Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. The suggested tune is Leominster. I think it is a strong recasting of a Christian reading of a famous passage in Job. I like it, but doubt I'll ever hear or sing it in church.

The Fury of the Wind, The Raging of the Sea
Eric Schumacher, 2005

The fury of the wind,
The raging of the sea,
How small a whisper do we hear
Of our God's majesty!
The thunder of His pow'r,
O, who can understand?
Before the fullness of His wrath
O, who of us could stand?

"Shall man find fault with God?"
He asks of man below.
"Now, gird yourself to answer Me.
And tell Me, if you know:
Who made the earth and sea?
Who speaks and stars obey?
Who plays with creatures of the deep?
Who gives the beast its prey?"

You, Lord, can do all things,
And none can stay Your hand.
I uttered what I did not know
And could not understand.
Before Your greatness, Lord,
I fall upon my face.
And, by such glory stripped of pride,
I cast myself on grace.

The raging wind and sea
Cause me to flee to Christ,
Who bore the tempest of God's wrath
To be my sacrifice.
Though in the storm I'm blind,
I trust my Sovereign's plan.
I know that my Redeemer lives
And with Him I shall stand.


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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn?
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 05:51 AM

The Doxology or the Psalm? Old hundredth is a great tune, but its most frequent application is with the text "Praise God, from whom all blessings flow" (modernised or not), which is not a hymn (at least, it has only one stanza, which is supposedly one of the disqualifiers). Of course, the tune can be sung with many other texts, most famously I suppose "All creatures that on earth do dwell", a proper metrical psalm and, in some definitions, a proper hymn.

Haruo


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