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BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon

freda underhill 06 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 06 Aug 06 - 07:43 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Aug 06 - 08:49 PM
GUEST,number 6 06 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM
Little Hawk 06 Aug 06 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,Number 6 06 Aug 06 - 09:21 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Aug 06 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,number 6 06 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM
GUEST,number 6 06 Aug 06 - 09:53 PM
Little Hawk 06 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Aug 06 - 10:32 PM
number 6 06 Aug 06 - 10:33 PM
number 6 06 Aug 06 - 10:35 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Aug 06 - 10:42 PM
flattop 06 Aug 06 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,Woody 06 Aug 06 - 11:58 PM
The Fooles Troupe 07 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM
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John on the Sunset Coast 07 Aug 06 - 12:14 AM
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John on the Sunset Coast 07 Aug 06 - 12:36 AM
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michaelr 07 Aug 06 - 01:16 AM
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freda underhill 11 Aug 06 - 07:45 AM
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GUEST 16 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM
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Subject: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM

why the world is silent


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 07:43 PM

Glad I looked at this most one sided article. Interesting as well are the credentials of the author.

Let me, not so humbly, suggest a perusal of the NY Times magazine of 8/6/06 and the article---a most fair minded one---Henri Levy (French)that looks at all sides---and also who was attacked in the first place.

He also makes a very interesting point---the people appointed to high government posts (Defense, etc;) after the pullout from Gaza were "Doves" (Peacenicks--as he calls them). Now they are faced with doing what they have tried to avoid. Diplomacy would be nice but there are those, as we all know from public statements, that want Israel obliterated. Read --the "fascists" in Iran and their cronies.

No sense repeating what I posted on another thread but leaving Gaza and hoping for some constructive actions from the Palestinians (who Hezbollah, by the way, cares not a whit about) proved unfruitful to say the least.

I suggest a reading of the article because I think you will see both points of view---and the tragedy that Hezbollah is bringing on all sides.

A last thought--if you read the NY Times piece. I was struck by the similarity of their actions (Hezbollah) with the Lebanese people and the actions of Mayor Daley (the elder) who gave charity in return for votes to the citizens of Chicago. Hezbollah gives charity to their constituents and then uses their neighborhoods to launch rockets---sort of like the robber holding a hostage as a shield.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:49 PM

Freda--

Your author states that the Geneva Conventions make the targeting of civilians illegal. True enough; it sounds as if she is about to criticise Hizbullah (alas, she is not). Your author fails to also state that to conduct war from amongst civilians, as does Hizbullah, is also illegal. Your author also wonders why the major countries seem to ignore Israli actions; perhaps it is because those on ground from those countries do not see Israeli actions as illegal as you and she do. Lastly, I am proud of the Israeli woman who cries over the deaths of Lebanese innocents...I hope there are many like her. No one should take satisfaction from killing of innocents. I do not recall seeing in that essay mention of any Hezbullah woman so crying with regard to innocent Israelis.

I normally do not like to cite specific sites--especially of groups that I generally disagree with. But as I suspect that you do generally approve of Human Rights Watch, I think you might read their site of 5-August. They blame Hizbullah for numerous violations since the current war began, and they are quite emphatic about it (I believe they use words to the effect that there is absolutely no justification for Hizullah targing civilian populations.) And, yes, deep in their report they also cite Israel for some of its actions. I hate moral equivalence, the non-thinking persons way to avoid analysis, which is why I generally don't read such sites.

[I would blue clicky it for you if I knew how]


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM

"sort of like the robber holding a hostage as a shield."

... much like the Costa Nostra (protection racket).

"Article 85, Paragraph 3 of the Geneva Conventions states that making civilians the object of attack is illegal. Further, it states that launching an attack against civilian infrastructure breaches these conventions."

.... Hezbollah rockets being fired directly into civilian areas, packed with ball bearings ?????

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:03 PM

"In its extreme form, the logic of victimhood does not allow room for even the possibility of there being other victims."

Exactly. And it becomes the justification for any number of blitzkriegs, any number of invasions, any number of atrocities on the part of the eternal self-appointed victims (as they see themselves).

That's the emotional engine that drove Nazi Germany into WWII and the Final Solution, and it's the emotional engine that drives Israel. It is also becoming the emotional engine that drives Israel's most bitter Palestinian and Arab and Persian foes.

It sees only itself as victim, only its own terrorist acts as justifiable (even noble), only its own losses as something to mourn. The USA, since 911, has also fallen into that same psychological trap of imaginary victimhood and that will cause further death and suffering in distant places as a result.

It's very stupid and unproductive behaviour all around...but predictable, when people simply cannot see past their own victimhood complex.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:21 PM

LH ... but is not an analogy to be found in the Hezbollah and the Nazis ... a political party formed with it's own paramilitary group ... providing rhetoric of fear, distrust and revenge against a neigbouring country and 'social services' to win over the populace.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:38 PM

Little Hawk--you and all of you who insist on comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and the Final Solution thereby undercut any credibility the rest of your argument might have. It is odious and trivializes Nazism. Please show me the trains going to the gas chambers and concentration camps; show me the crescents on the garments of muslims or tattoos on their arms. Show me gangs of Jews rampaging through the streets of Tel Aviv destroying Arab homes and businesses, and just beating them up for the fun of it. Get real!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM

well said John ... and let's leave it at that.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:53 PM

BTW .... never trust and always be wary of a political party who has it's own paramilitary group ... especially if this political party is not the majority 'ruling'party.

sIc


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM

I respectfully disagree, gents. The pyschology is very, very similar to that of the Nazis. The fact that the Israelis have not yet equalled the degree of physical crimes against humanity committed by the Nazis does not change the psychological underpinnings one iota. I'm not comparing the degree of the act involved, I'm comparing the psychological assumptions of victimhood and "master race/chosen people" that lie behind the policy, and I find them very similar. I also find the military doctrine very similar, as regards general tactical approach to campaigning.

And yes, 6, I DID indicate in my post that I think the most fanatical opponents OF Israel (which would include Hezbollah) are also adopting the same Nazi-like cult of "victimhood" and are abusing it in a similar fashion, using it to justify their violence upon Israelis...only they're not well armed enough to do the classic blitzkrieg warfare like the Israelis do it.


You know, Hitler was under the funny impression that the German people had been victimized horribly after the First World War. (well, actually, there was some reason for him to feel that way...but he exaggerated it out considerably of context...and he blamed the wrong people for it! Meaning, he blamed Jews and Communists, mostly.) He succeeded in convincing millions of Germans that they were victims...and that they would NEVER AGAIN be victims under his rule. He promised to restore the strength, diginty, and pride of the nation.

You tell me how that is psychologically all that different from the motivations that were driving Jews after WWII and have been driving them since? Same basic deal. You have a people in great trauma and distress who have taken terrible losses. You have a huge sense of collective grievance and persecution. You have a people utterly determined to NEVER AGAIN be weak in the face of an outer threat, and bent on securing military supremacy through an elite war machine second to none.

The reason you can't bear the thought of that comparison is...you don't want to believe that Jews could make the same terrible mistake the Germans did...and fall into the same darkness of intent.

Well, believe it. It's a tough pill to swallow, I know. Jews would have to step outside their accustomed group consciousness to do it. Most people are barely capable of stepping outside their group consciousness. In fact, they won't even consider doing so. They'll usually die first, rather than be that objective.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM

The Palestinian Arabs and Christians have been left with scraps of useless land on which most live as refugees. To me it seems Israel wishes to destroy Lebanon as well as a viable country, a goal far beyond neutralizing Hezbollah. I regard this as a form of genocide.

Hezbollah and Hamas would not have grown to threatening size if Israeli Zionists had not forced the Palestinians into a hopelessly marginalized position.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:32 PM

Little Hawk, aside from the psycho-babble you spout, do you enjoy making innacurate comparisons? You obviously have no understanding of the Jewish concept of being the 'Chosen People'; if you did you would not juxtapose it to 'master race'. I choose to believe that you are too honorable a person purposely make that comparison if you know better.
May I suggest you visit a rabbi in your area and get educated on the concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:33 PM

"Jews would have to step outside their accustomed group consciousness to do it."

... I've stepped out of my group consciousness (which by the way consists of about 3) and I totally disagree. There is absolutely no analogy as to what is is happening in these last tragic 3 weeks to Israel and the Nazis ... absolutely none.

Forget about 'victimhood' in relation to the Israelis ... they are a nation now protecting themselves ... brutal as war is.

Personally I wish both sides would 'step back'. Enough is enough.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:35 PM

Excellent point John (aain) .... LH, I also suggest you do that. It certainly would provide some much undertanding.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:42 PM

Q-The people who have marginalized Palestinean people are their Arab bretheren. They could have had a country in 1948, the first in their history. They, with the instigation of all the Arab countries chose to fight instead. But we've been through this before. Why is it that of all the countries established since 1948, and all the people who were displaced by border shifts, only Palestineans are still in so-called refugee camps? Did you know that Palestineans are amongst the most educated and successful Arabs outside of the camps? Why are the rest still there? And it isn't the fault of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:04 PM

Apart from politics, watch the technology.

Thick walled forts kept attackers at bay, more or less, until cannons rendered the walls useless. Then no one built stone walled forts.

Something similar is happening where plentiful and relatively inexpensive missiles are rendering older technologies ineffective.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:58 PM

BERNARD-HENRI LEVY: A French Imposter


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

"Why are the rest still there?"

Well there are these people living on the land they were expelled from...

"And it isn't the fault of Israel."

.....?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:07 AM

"You obviously have no understanding of the Jewish concept of being the 'Chosen People'; if you did you would not juxtapose it to 'master race'. I choose to believe that you are too honorable a person purposely make that comparison if you know better.
May I suggest you visit a rabbi in your area and get educated on the concept. "

Seen from externally, such mental differences are a matter of 'faith'.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:14 AM

Foolstroupe, you obviously don't understand the Jewish concept of 'Chosen People" either. If you did you would not havemade such a glib dismissal of my comment. I suggest you join Little Hawk in gaining knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:18 AM

I watch a lot of SBS & DW TV news ...

"Please show me the trains going to the gas chambers and concentration camps"

With air supremacy, don't need that. Just flatten everything, including ambulances and fruit pickers

"show me the crescents on the garments of muslims or tattoos on their arms."

Don't need that - Israeli soldiers going to the front said interviewed said "there are no innocent civilians in Lebanon, there are only Hizbulla" - that means you can shoot up the UN too btw.

"Show me gangs of Jews rampaging through the streets of Tel Aviv destroying Arab homes and businesses, and just beating them up for the fun of it. "

Don't need that, with an Israeli Govt policy of destroying all Lebanon infrastructure, and air supremacy.

Just watch the news channels outside of 7, 9, 10 (Aussie commercial channels) and ch 2 (ABC must give a 'balanced picture' or the Aussie Govt howls if the 'balanced picture' differs from the Govt's view)


"Seen from externally, such mental differences are a matter of 'faith'."

Oh, I should have said - 'from an aethist external view'.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:23 AM

"comparing the psychological assumptions of victimhood and "master race/chosen people" that lie behind the policy, and I find them very similar."

Yep.

"I also find the military doctrine very similar, as regards general tactical approach to campaigning."

Yep.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:24 AM

Same response Foolstroupe; even an atheist could understand that concept, even if they did not believe in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:27 AM

"obviously don't understand the Jewish concept of 'Chosen People' either. If you did you would not havemade such a glib dismissal of my comment."

Perhaps, as an atheist, I don't WANT to 'understand' :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:36 AM

Nice chatting with you, Foolstroupe. If ignorance is bliss, you are the happiest Foolstroupe in the world. Perhaps I'll ignore you future ignorant comments and let you keep your head in the ground like the ostriches of your continent. :-] back at ya.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

"even an atheist could understand that concept, even if they did not believe in it."

You keep missing my point because of your narrow mindedness engendered by 'Religious Training' (brainwashing, so that you cannot think outside the box you are trapped in) - ANY philosophy (whether promoted by Religion or not) that claims a superiority of one group or another is largely indistinguishable to students of history from Fascism. Focusing on simple superficial external factors like uniforms, flags, etc, overlooks the results of their actions, as well as their actions themselves, which many wise religious leaders have preached about as being more important that the simple externals eg, "wolves in sheep's clothing".

The Zionists in the 1930s were a bunch of fanatical religious terrorist zealots - just like the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese - they HAVE however,achieved their political aims - expulsion of .

Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have achieved or forgotten your original aims.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:41 AM

"Perhaps, as an atheist, I don't WANT to 'understand'"

regardless of beleif, or non beleif it certainly wouldn't hurt to understand .... that's the problem, people don't want to understand ... ah, the bliss of ignorance.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:45 AM

"If ignorance is bliss"

Ah! that's why YOU can't understand that the Iranian Mullahs also believe exactly that same thing - that they are ALSO God's chosen people and that is why they must exterminate the Jews!

Fascist viewpoint too!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:47 AM

Jews/Israelis/Zionists don't want to extermidate Muslims.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:48 AM

"regardless of beleif, or non beleif it certainly wouldn't hurt to understand"

I was being satirical - I do understand only too well - as my other comments demonstrate!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:49 AM

"Jews/Israelis/Zionists don't want to extermidate Muslims"

Bzzzzt!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:52 AM

Show me proof of the mandate or any credible evidence of the Jews/Israelis/Zionist wanting to destroy all Muslims.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:58 AM

Foolestroupe ...that's not the usual 'you' speaking there ... what, to much sun and drinkin' a bit too much Foster's today?? :)

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:59 AM

I don't know why I bother, but once more into the breech.
Jewish Chosen-ess has nothing to do with religious, racial or ethnic superiority, unlike Naziism and Master Race which had everything to do with racial and ethnic superiority.
Zionists, for the most part, from its inception were not religious zealots; contrariwise they were largely what we now call "ethnic Jews";    Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, was such a person.
Now, whether one is a believer of any religion, an athiest, or an agnostic, the concept is understandable, if one choses to learn. Or one can choose not to educate oneself, and ignorantly spout poppycock.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:00 AM

Currently (and also for many years) they are working on destroying everybody, (and everything) Muslims, Christians, etc in Lebanon, and Gaza...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:02 AM

"that's not the usual 'you' speaking there ... what, to much sun and drinkin' a bit too much Foster's today?? :)"

Ad hominen attacks prove that you KNOW you have lost the argument.

PS can't stand 'Fosters'


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:03 AM

Take a shower Foolestroupe ... cool down man .... that is absolute crap.

Totally lacking in any credibility at all .... ignorant paranoia, fear. Dangerous rhetoric is what it is.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:05 AM

PPS it's bloody Winter! overcast as usual...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:05 AM

"Ad hominen attacks prove that you KNOW you have lost the argument."

I havent lost anything ... show me credible proof man.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:09 AM

"that is absolute crap"

Perhaps I should stop watching the news...

Dozens of Israelis dead, hundreds (thousands, depending on how far back you look) of 'neighbours' dead...

The Israelis are definitely winning the 'war of attrition'...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:11 AM

'show me credible proof man.'

Played THAT game before! - nothing I can say will be accepted by you as 'credible proof'...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:16 AM

Little Hawk has offered the most intelligent analysis seen here so far.

Fact is, all sides in this are dirty. All the fighters whipped into a frenzy by religious demagogues, and the innocent pay the price. It is a disgusting spectacle - even more disgusting than what the Bush cabal is doing here at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:20 AM

For LH and Foolsetroupe any comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany is unfounded ... In Nazi Germani, Jews were not people, they were not allowed to have businesses, go to universities, let alone hold any public office or government seat .. well, you know the story, In Israel there are Christian, Muslim citizens ... Arab Israelis hold elected seats in the goverment, have businesses, goto universities. There are Arab Israelis in the army, in fact many of the units in the Gaza are Israeli Arabs ... they are protecting their homeland too ... in fact there are Arab Israelis casualties as a result of Hezbollah rockets hitting Damascaus, a city mainly populated by Arabs and Christians.

Foolestroupe ... I suggest you should watch other news coverages .. it is tragic there are a lot of innocent casualties in this war ... Lebanese and Israeli ... as I mentioned previously I wish Both sides would pull back. But with all this ignorant tripe about Israel/Zionist Nazis I have to argue back.

sIx

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:22 AM

"Played THAT game before! - nothing I can say will be accepted by you as 'credible proof'..."

... I'm more than willing to see any credible truth.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/060803/481/0d4bf4975624426492174d021ada116f&g=events/wl/080601mideast;_ylt=AnFfcQZNXNyvOPMSkWlBs5EUewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3bGk2OHYzBHNlYwN0bXA

Beirut before and after Israel's peacemongering. They're turning the city into a Warsaw ghetto.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 04:16 AM

As one Lebbanon government offical remarked , "What Lebanon?, the country is in ruins", US WMDs are really big bombs.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 05:42 AM

"Chosen People." A dangerous concept that is causing untold misery in the Middle East.

I watched on BBCTV news as Lebanese who have had to flee their country joined Christians to march in a celebration in Damascus yesterday, and sang Hezbollah songs.

Israel may destroy Hezbollah as a viable force, but they are only guaranteeing that similar groups, born of despair and frustration, will rise to replace them and be even stronger.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:03 AM

"I suggest you should watch other news coverages "

I don't watch just US media, unlike some here. I watch about a dozen or more different international news coverages, as well as the local Aussie ones - SBS has direct feeds from most world language groups - you don't need to understand the languages completely to get the gist of most of the stories. Many of the stories on the local channels in English, just use fragments of the longer pictorials that are run in full on foreign language channels.



"ignorant tripe about Israel/Zionist Nazis"

Actions speak louder than words. Only the simple minded would say that Israel/Zionists are Nazis - but 'ye shall know them by their actions', a wise man once said.



"I'm more than willing to see any credible truth."

You have rejected everything so far put forward that reflects against your prejudices. So what would YOU accept then?

The Arab League was criticising Hizbullah at first for starting the mess. (For the moment, we'll ignore the murdering of civilians and bulldozing of houses in Gaza...) Now the Arab League is criticising Israel for 'excessive force'.

Historians will look back and quote this time as when the US lost world leadership to China.

A previous US president froze munitions deliveries until Israel stopped hostilities, which resulted in a very short offensive - why has George not done the same? The US is on the back foot in Iraq, and even Afghanistan. China outsmarted the USA by bringing the UN resolution about Israel's behaviour - the US veto (and dragging along 'allies' who have the tiger by the tail, and cannot let go!) is all that protected Israel.


BTW, the long range weapons (unguided rockets) that the Hizbullah are using are as accurate as the WWII V1 & V2 weapons, largely random (basically big dangerous fireworks) [in fact many are just copies of the WWII Russian ones] - light blue touch paper and stand back, and hope it hits something of military value. Which only makes the actions of the Israeli military, who can easily visually guide their weapons precisely on to ambulances (right in the centre of the red cross on the roof!) and precisely known UN positions, etc, even more relatively reprehensible.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:13 AM

"BTW, the long range weapons (unguided rockets) that the Hizbullah are using are as accurate as the WWII V1 & V2 weapons, largely random (basically big dangerous fireworks) [in fact many are just copies of the WWII Russian ones] - light blue touch paper and stand back, and hope it hits something of military value. "

TRUE, making the point that Hezbollah is in violation of international law, and committing war crimes.


"Which only makes the actions of the Israeli military, who can easily visually guide their weapons precisely on to ambulances (right in the centre of the red cross on the roof!) and precisely known UN positions, etc, even more relatively reprehensible"

You have NOT addressed the stated point ( by the UN observer) that the Hezbollah forces are using such as human shields, and thus bear the guilt THEMSLVES for any civilian casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:41 AM

Foolestroupe ... I was requesting credible facts from you in regards to your statement .. this current war going on does not in any way relate or have facts backing up your statement.

"Currently (and also for many years) they are working on destroying everybody, (and everything) Muslims, Christians, etc in Lebanon, and Gaza..."

In regards to your post informing us of the Hazbollah rockets you failed to mention that they are packed full of ball bearings for maximun human killing effect ... these rockes are not made to specifications on knocking out a military target.

The 'Chosen People' line and is definately being taken out of context here.

Guest ... if the Hezbollah had the weaponary ... Tel Aviv would look like Tokyo in August of 1945.

BTW ... no one picked up on my mistake in the above thread (07 Aug 06 - 01:20 AM ) ... I meant Nazerath, not Damascus.

sIx (not posting anymore to these current mideast conflict threads, is the bitterness that arises worth it here in the Mudcat)


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM

Lively discussion, isn't it?

Flattop makes an interesting comment about the changes in military hardware.

Guys, I think both the Iranians AND the Israelis (and Hezbollah and Hamas and the Saudis and the Bush administration)...all have fallen into the same egocentric error. They think God is on their side, and they think (either secretly or openly) that they are God's chosen people.

Such thoughts lead to nothing good for anyone.

I would be happy to talk to first, a rabbi, second, an imam...then compare notes and see who is less prejudiced than the other...but that would depend on which rabbi or imam I talked to, obviously. I'm sure they're not all identical.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:32 PM

"TRUE, making the point that Hezbollah is in violation of international law, and committing war crimes."

And Israel is not, especially when murdering UN observers in well known and marked positions, and deliberately targeting ambulances bearing red crosses? They BOTH are doing the same 'illegal acts' (and the USA is showing partisanship!) - and Israel is still squatting on territory 'stolen' as a a result of 'conquest' - oh, sorry, YWH told them they could have it!

"packed full of ball bearings for maximum human killing effect ... these rockets are not made to specifications on knocking out a military target."

Did a damn effective job when they finally lobbed one in that group of troops (a military target!) though (as i said, a 'random' weapon!)... and I wasn't aware that shrapnel was a prohibited munition (frag grenades and mortars would be illegal then, wouldn't they?) - almost every anti-personnel weapon (that does not use a bullet) uses that. Unless you just mean that only 'bloody big explosions' are legal - which is what the guided 500 pound + bombs are for - knocking out physical structures.


"You have NOT addressed the stated point ( by the UN observer) that the Hezbollah forces are using such as human shields, and thus bear the guilt THEMSLVES for any civilian casualties."

I've not seen any 'credible evidence' that ambulances are being used for weapon carrying - that long term Israeli claim was discussed here ages ago, and jOhn who had carried such weapons said that the pictures submitted as 'proof' didn't look like the real things anyway! - and I HAVE seen many times the footage of the neat hole in the centre of the red cross on the top of both ambulances...

And the Israelis have been kidnapping civilians for years - and even now are holding as prisoners freely elected (in an acknowledged 'honest election') as members of a parliament - is not THAT illegal?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:25 AM

Foolstroupe, Correct in every detail.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:58 AM

A very interesting viewpoint from a well-respected journalist here :
Seems to tell a much fuller version of the story than we have been getting.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:01 AM

Given that no one on this thread is being bombed or shot at, yet we have disturbed and excited reactions, why should anyone truly threatened be forgiving and levelheaded?

Bush, Hitler, Hezbollah members, and Israelis have all won free and fair elections.

Yet, changing technology, again, makes the situation like none other. Israelis can no longer murder and mutilate a disproportionate number of Arab children, under some vague justification that Germans did the same to them on a different continent over a half century ago, without disturbing sounds and pictures being flashed around the world on cell phones and web cams.

With more people getting angry, the situation is likely to get worse and continue for a long time. Hitler's murderous ways didn't win in the end either.

The U.S. is also supplying detailed satellite pictures to the Israelis. Another technological twist.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:55 AM

Bush Hitler Hezbollah Israelis...who doesn't belong in this group?
Hitler...Hitler was appointed, by Hindenberg as a bribe to cease creating violent actions in Germany, though yes, his party had seats in the German government. He merely took over from there.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:13 PM

Hitler was not elected to a majority, as far as I recollect - he was appointed as a result of cajoling/bullying a weak old sick man.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:42 PM

Expert legal opinion on "war crimes" in the current conflict.

I posted the above link in another thread earlier today. It would seem to be relevant here too.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

From C Ham's link:

"The track record of many of Israel's most powerful accusers--including China, Russia and the European Union--is not nearly as good at balancing civilian risk against military goals.
China killed hundreds of peaceful Tiananmen Square protestors in 1989. It has for five decades occupied Tibet, slaughtering tens of thousands; and it vows to invade Taiwan if it declares independence. Neither the Tiananmen protesters nor Tibet nor Taiwan has ever threatened to "wipe China off the map."

Russia has fought since 1994 to suppress Chechnya's independence movement. Out of a Chechen population of one million, as many as 200,000 have been killed as Russia has leveled the capital city of Grozny. Chechen rebels pose no threat to "wipe Russia off the map." All of the leading EU countries actively participated in NATO's 78-day bombing campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. The military goal was to stop Yugoslavia from oppressing its Kosovar minority. NATO bombs and missiles hit Yugoslav bridges, power plants and a television station, killing hundreds of civilians. Yugoslavia posed no threat to the existence of any of the EU countries that bombed it.

Compared with how China, Russia, and the EU have dealt with non-existential threats--and despite the law-flouting behavior of Hezbollah, Iran and Syria--Israel's responses to the threats to its existence have been remarkably restrained rather than disproportionately violent."


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM

"remarkably restrained"

Yeah, at least the latest trend to bombing cemeteries at least isn't killing live ones... although the family cemetery plot was bombed along with the house of the father of a guy in Hezbullah - killing only a young girl.

I noticed that when the USA bombed a parking station in Iraq where civilians were hiding to escape indiscriminate bomb strikes on civilian housing seems to be as acceptable as when the Israelis did it now...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

Do you recall the movie, "Judgement at Nuremberg". When the German judge (played by Burt Lancaster) had been convicted of signing death warrants for innocent jews he tried to explain to the prosecutor (played by Spencer Tracey ) that he thought only a handful of jews would be executed, the prosecutor replied that by signing a death warrant for ONE innocent man he had lost his humanity. Despite my sympathy for the jews in Israel, the killing of ONE innocent lebanese child puts them in the same category.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:38 PM

What are Hamm and Peas saying here? That Israel hasn't killed their quota of innocent people? That it would have been better if the Israelis had killed innocent people in a square in Tel Aviv and controlled media coverage? That Russian atrocities justify Israeli atrocities?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:42 PM

Ya see what ya wanna see and ya hear what ya wanna hear, flattop.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:53 PM

I just message the AH. May his balls rot for that remark.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 11:01 PM

Peace be with you, me son.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 11:28 PM

As if you know the road and meaning to peace flattop.

Any posts correlating the Israelis to the Nazis is way out of line. Nothing but bullshit babble spewing of the mouths of utter ignorance.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:16 AM

Will I stumble on the path to peace if I follow close behind you?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:27 AM

Well Flattop, if we all worked together maybe, hopefully we'll find it.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:53 AM

"Any posts correlating the Israelis to the Nazis is way out of line"


Hmmmm, a wise man once said "by their ACTIONS shall ye know them"...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:52 AM

Israel responded to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah, right? Wrong


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:37 AM

"Hmmmm, a wise man once said "by their ACTIONS shall ye know them"... "

Then keep on posting Foolestroupe.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:44 AM

Hmmm, define 'unprovoked' - in the historical context of 'The Middle East'.... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:57 AM

"Israel responded to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah, right? Wrong "

I had been thinking Poland, Vietnam - 'unprovoked', you know...


"of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared ... By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we're seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it's been simulated and rehearsed across the board".

Hmmm.... 6 weeks... since Israel has been claiming to 'be in control' of that little village for nearly the last 3 weeks, looks like their schedule is now behind... funny I seem to remember claims that The German army was 'in control of Stalingrad', for weeks before they surrendered to the Russians...

Power-Point Presentation, eh, perhaps they should have sent a copy of the script to Hezbullah.... "as you can clearly see from the animation"... wonder if they used the same template as the 'war for Iraq"?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

If Israel was doing the indiscriminate killing the Hezbollah supporters claim, that friggin' village would have ceased to exist 5.9 weeks ago. Get a grip!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:09 PM

re. post by beardedbruce:

"You have NOT addressed the stated point ( by the UN observer) that the Hezbollah forces are using such as human shields, and thus bear the guilt THEMSLVES for any civilian casualtie"

I haven't yet seen any evidence that Hizbullah are actually using civilians as human shields. They are firing their rockets from areas where civilians live, but that describes most of Lebanon. Perhaps they should fire them from the moon, where we can be sure there are no civilians. On the other hand, the Israeli Defence Force warns civilians to flee southern Lebanon, and then drops its bombs bombs almost immediately, catching numerous civilians as they are trying to escape. I also remember seeing a photograph published in Newsweek magazine in April of 2004 (if I remember correectly) of Israeli soldiers with a 13-year old Palestinian teenage boy tied to their jeep as a human shield. I doubt this was an isolated incident. For students of history, this technique was pioneered by the Black and Tans in Ireland in 1920. Knesset originally justified its invasion of Lebanon on account of the kidnapping of two of its soldiers (despite Israel having kidnapped hundreds of Palestinians, as noted elsewhere on this thread). Proof that this is nonsense can be partly found in the probability that these two soldiers are probably dead by now under houses reduced to rubble by bombs dropped by their IDF colleagues. The most logical explanation I have come across yet anywhere for Israel's invasion is their desire to grab control of the Litani river in southern Lebanon, an important source of fresh water in an increasingly arid region. On the news the other night Knesset announced its intention to push as fas as the Litani river, unsurprisingly. The only problem is that this will create a huge new wave of recruitment to Hizbullah, and thus be counterproductive to Israel's other stated aim of destroying that organisation. Then, with Hizbullah activity NORTH of the Litani river, Israel will say it has to invade Lebanon NORTH of the Litani river in order to defend itself, and so on all the way up to the North Pole, probably. US interest in the region will last as long as the oil lasts, leaving Israel surrounded and alone amongst very hostile Arab neighbours. It would make sense for them to do the magnanimous thing and strike a workable deal with their Arab neighbours and not leave a legacy of fighting and war to their grandchildren. Even if the palestinians did not go for a seperate state in 1948 is no reason for Israel not to puruse that line now. Indeed they were doing so up to recently, but two things got in the way: the Palestinian people democratically choose Hamas to represent them, and Israel began a series of land grabs with their wall, withdrawing from some settlements but gaining better ground elsewhere, including whole palestinian farms of olive trees and so on. It was not a deal palestinians were ever likely to go with.

As for comments on the correleation betwen Zionists and Nazis, the connection is not as far-fetched as John on Sunset Coast and others claim. Just because the Jewish people were victims of the Nazis, does not mean they can never be like them: indeed bullies usually learn their behaviour from being bullied by others. The Irish were victims of British colonial rule, but Irishmen (and ocassionally, women) could be found imposing Britain's imperial will as footsoldiers in its army, or among the most brutal of slave plantation overseers in 1800s USA. The word 'Nazi' has become lazy shorthand for 'evil' or 'monstrous'. Of course, in a sense it's true - there was something very evil, even demonic, about the Nazis. But they were not the only villians in history and they did nothing that hadn't been done before. Genocide: had been carried out many times before - in South America by Spanish conquistadores who treated the native indians like dirt, in the USA when native American Indians were wiped out with dieseased blankets (germ warfare), gatling guns and herded into reservations (concentration camps). The British did their fair share, as did the French and so on. Anti-Jewish pogroms were a fairly regular feature of the Jewish experience in Europe throughout their diaspora: the massacre of Jews in York in the 13th century, the expulsion of Jews from Spain in the 15th century, the pogroms of 19th centruy Russia and eastern Europe. These are only a tiny fraction of the examples, which would fill a volume of books if given in full. Ironically, the one place where Jews had a relatively untroubled existence was in Germany, until the Nazis took power. As someone else said in this thread, the Germans blamed the wrong people for thier hardship after WW1 - they should have blamed the French, British and to a lesser extent, Americans, for the ridiculous and unjust terms of the Versailles treaty, but instead Hitler found a convenient scapegoat in the Jews. But the Nazis did nothing new - except to conduct the pogrom on a industrialised scale. The scale was so big it shocked the world, even one jaded by all the centuries of previous anti-semitism, and the horrors of WW1. It couldn't be brushed under the carpet like other pogroms. But the notion that Britain and the USA fought WW2 to save the Jews is an unfounded one, whatever Spielberg might like to claim in his movies (see e.g Band of Brothers - "Reasons Why We Fight"). It might not be popular to say it now, but many American servicemen of WW2 would have gone home if they thought they were fighting a war to save the Jews: anti-semitism was not unknown in the USA either. But in recent times this justification has been put forward as the motivation for British and US involvement in WW2. It's not that it's not a noble idea - any attempt to save an innocent people from a horrible extermination is noble - it's just that it's not true. It was more an accidental result of US and British involvement in WW2 than a predetermined goal. But by advancing that idea, the Brit and US governments and idealogues are trying to create a moral continuum in which the Nazis of today (read: 'the enemy / terrorists / witches') are Isalmic fundamentalists, "we fought a moral war back then, and so we are fighting one now' - even though what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan flies in the face of all morality. The probloem with this idea is that there is a bit of the Nazi psychology in all the sides, in the sense that there is an element of fascism in the ideology of Islamic fundamentalist, Zionist and Republican right-winger alike. For example they all put blind faith in military might to solve their problems, believe their way of life is superior to any other, believe they are Divinely inspired (poor God must be wringing His hands in sorrow), that their will must be imposed on others by bomb and bullet. None of them will countenance any dissent from their viewpoint.

No doubt John will simplistically accuse me of being anti-semitic. Well, not a bit of it. I believe Jews are entitled to a homeland as much as anyone. True, I only know a few Jewish friends, but I like and regard them highly. My like / dislike of anyone is based on their personality, not their race /ethnicity. Accusations of anti-semitism is a smokescreen to avoid any scrutiny or criticsim of what is going on in Palestine and Lebanon. Accusations of 'Nazi' in relation to Islamic fundamentalists, in the US and UK media is basically a tool employed to deflect serious scrutiny of their own behaviour and policies. The basic premise is that the only real villians in history were the Nazis, and since the US and UK defeated the Nazis (actually it was the Russians who did most of the hard work) they must be the 'good guys'. Wrong!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:16 PM

Well read, and well said, Nick.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

GuestNick
It has been nearly two days since I posted to this thread, having said all that I thought was relevant. In this, and related threads, I have sometimes tried to argue with history; I have sometimes tried to show the fallacy in the method of an argument; I have sometimes used irony and even a bit of humor [tho' that's in the eye of the beholder]. I have tried to respond to arguments with respect, tho not wholly succeeding, I'm sure.
But your post of 10:09 finally go to me. I find I do not agree with anything you have said anywhere in that essay. I find it mostly historically innaccurate and filled with morally equivalent twaddle. I also find many disengenuous statements that border on the mendacious.
As to whether you are anti-Semitic...well you used the term, and it is between you and your God, or at least between you and your conscience.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:58 PM

This jeep incident .... never seen this pic ... but regardless, maybe it did happen, and yes maybe there were other incident's ... they do happen in times of war ... by Canadians, Australians, Brits, and whatever ... the most recent autrocity being the rape, and murder by a few American troops in Iraq .... do we condemn all Americans as barbarians for this? This 'jeep' incident you mention ... are all Israelis/Jews to be condemned? We condenm the members of the Nazi party and their paramilitary divison th SS for the autrocities, not Germans. BTW, inaccurate statement mentioning how the Israelis force's, warnings are followed immediately bombing. There is evidence that the Hizbullah does position it's rocket launchers in crowded civilian areas, and yes there is much mountainous countryside available they can use instead.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:12 PM

Interesting how most of the footage I see on TV (and I watch MANY different sources) show the rockets rising from thick stands of trees, not residential areas.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:17 PM

Save it, Foolestroupe. The Israelis are targeting return fire (artilery) and air strikes based on light sources from fired rockets (look up, look WAAAAAAAY up). I am sure some rockets ARE fired from bush/brush/stands of trees. We also know beyond doubt that Hezbollah and Hamas are firing from densely populated civilian areas. Fact, buddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:19 PM

Footage I have seen (and I watch MANY different sources) shows rocket rising from beside trees and some residential buildings. E-mails (just prior to his death) from the Canadian peacekeeper who was a victim of an Israeli rocket did mention Hizbellah used their (UN) outpost as a 'shield'.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:35 PM

As I said, it's interesting, and I have seen released Israeli military footage targeting rockets rising places from other than trees - the photographers' stuff I have been seeing has obviously shot from quite a distance away - obviously for their own safety. And that raises a second point, about the 'filtering', inadvertent or deliberate, of the various news sources...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:04 AM

True, FT. However, the more cogent question, IMO, is why the Hezbollah have been able to do such a fine job controlling the media and resulting opinions people have? They come off as 'lily-white' and the Israelis as the only bad guys in the war. Makes one wonder who is pulling whose strings. As always, if the Israelis are so powerful and influential (as anti-Semites would have us believe: according to them, the 'Jews' of the world own the press--that's a litany we have heard often from the racist element here), then why have they done so poorly in the 'propaganda' war?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:47 AM

" then drops its bombs bombs almost immediately, "


Really? They have been giving 24 hours notice from the reports I have seen- Can you point to other reports??




"I also remember seeing a photograph published in Newsweek magazine in April of 2004 (if I remember correectly) of Israeli soldiers with a 13-year old Palestinian teenage boy tied to their jeep as a human shield. I doubt this was an isolated incident. "

A case which went to the Isralei Supreme court. Can you show any Palestinian court cases for any of the illegal terrorist actions?




" I believe Jews are entitled to a homeland as much as anyone. "

Have you looked at San Remo Conference or Treaty of Lucerne? Gave specific borders for Turket,Iraq, Syria, and Mandate Palestine- WHICH WAS DIVIDED by the British into an Arab Homeland (Transjordan ) and a Jewish Homeland. Looks like what happened in India/Pakistan- except one side is STILL trying to remove the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:45 AM

It's weird that while Israel is bombing Lebanon into rubble, the war on Lebanon is being portrayed as a war for Israel's survival, as if it were Israel that's at risk.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM

Israel has a right of self-defence found in both the United Nations Charter and customary international law. However, the right of self defence is not unlimited. Israel commenced its military campaign against Hezbollah forces in Lebanon after the capture of two of its soldiers in mid-July. The scale and intensity of the Israeli military campaign has clearly moved well beyond efforts to retrieve its soldiers.

Israel is also bound by international humanitarian law based upon the 1949 Geneva Conventions. Israel can legitimately attack Hezbollah fighters and justify the targeting of certain objects based on military necessity. However, humanitarian law requires a distinction between civilian and military targets.

The bombing of large tracts of southern Lebanon, the bombing of civilians, children, refugees and Maronite Christian areas are in violation of international law - Housing blocks have been reduced to rubble, leaving thousands homeless. Villages have been bombed without justification. Aid and humanitarian workers including the Red Cross have been targeted. Israel has shattered Lebanon's infrastructure and economy, homes, factories and warehouses have been destroyed, roads severed, bridges smashed and airports disabled.

Yes, Lebanon's failure to control Hezbollah must be acknowledged. It has failed to meet the requirements of Security Council Resolution 1559 calling for the disarming and disbanding of Hezbollah.

However, do Lebanon's failings justify the scale and intensity of the Israeli assault? No. The reconstruction of the last 15 years has been obliterated in a few weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:49 AM

"They come off as 'lily-white' "

Not with me, they don't. Neither side does, and both sides have been taking pot shots at each other across the border (with civilians being killed) for years, since Israel walked out of most of Lebanon last time - the Hezbullah taking that for their excuse for pot shots Israel squatting on some border land, and Israel using the old playground excuse - "but ma, he hit me back first!"


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:19 PM

I will ask you the same question I have asked others, Freda. What would you have Israel do in response to rocket attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas from Lebanon and the Gaza?

I agree that the intensity of Israel's response is massive. However, they have to answer the same question I just asked you (and have asked on other threads and have yet to receive a response from anyone other than words to the effect: "Well, if Israel wasn't there in the first place then none of this woulda happened" kinda stuff).

I await your response.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:42 PM

The question should be rephrased, Bruce: How should Hezbollah respond to the bombing of Lebanese citizens by Israel? What Israel was responding to was the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. It was Israel that started the mass bombing - and Hezbollah is responding. What part of that can't you understand?

More than 10,000 Israeli troops are now fighting Hezbollah guerrillas in south Lebanon. In the new phase, Israeli forces will push toward Lebanon's Litani River, some 18 miles from the Israel-Lebanon border, trying to capture more than twice as much territory as they hold now.
WHY IS ISRAEL USING THE KIDNAPPING OF TWO SOLDIERS TO EXPAND ITS BORDERS INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY?

I repeat: Israel has a right of self-defence against Hezbollah found in both the United Nations Charter and customary international law. However, the right of self defence is not unlimited. Israel can legitimately attack Hezbollah fighters and justify the targeting of certain objects based on military necessity. However, humanitarian law requires a DISTINCTION BETWEEN CIVILIAN AND MILITARY TARGETS.

The bombing of large tracts of southern Lebanon, the bombing of civilians, children, refugees and Maronite Christian areas are in violation of international law. And don't give me that guff about Hezbollah hiding everywhere - the Maronites don't hide Hezbollah - refugees fleeing in cars with white banners on them aren't hiding Hezbollah - Israel has an obligation not to kill civilians.

More than 1,000 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed and 123 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also been killed. (BBC online) THAT is the crime.

The only practical way for outsiders to stop the fighting is to starve the soldiers of weapons. This would mean Iran and Syria denying Hizbullah guns and rockets, and America denying Israel planes and bombs. Both would be admirable contributions to peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

Thanks, but no thanks. It does not answer the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:10 PM

"It was Israel that started the mass bombing - and Hezbollah is responding"


says who? are not the rockets over the last several years by Hezbollah attacking innocent Israelis of any importance?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

of course, I forgot, its ALWAYS the other side's fault, ALWAYS.

that's why its so important to call others baddies - that way you are always the goodie.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

"WHY IS ISRAEL USING THE KIDNAPPING OF TWO SOLDIERS TO EXPAND ITS BORDERS INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY?"

And who says Israel is expanding its borders? Israel states it will withdraw when UNR 1559 is implemented.


"humanitarian law requires a DISTINCTION BETWEEN CIVILIAN AND MILITARY TARGETS."

Which Israel has done, and Hezbollah has NOT.


"More than 1,000 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed and 123 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also been killed. (BBC online) THAT is the crime."

AGREED. The difference is YOU blame Israel for defending itself, and I blame Hezbollah for its war crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM

"that's why its so important to call others baddies - that way you are always the goodie. "


So, you understand that Hezbollah blaming the Israelis should perhaps be taken with a large sack of salt?

LOOK AT THE FACTS. You have NOT addressed the FACT that the war crimes committed by Hezbollah are the direct cause of the large number of deaths. YOU have NOT addressed the FACT that Hezbollah continues to use area mass bombardment rockest on a civilian population, in violation of international law. YOU ignore the FACT that Israel has gone out ofits way to reduce civilian casualties, while Hezbollah has done everything possible to increase them.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:36 PM

can you read, bbruce?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:19 PM

To: Peace,

Re. "What would you have Israel do in response to rocket attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas from Lebanon and the Gaza?"

Yes, I agree, it is quite a conundrum. The most natural reaction when attacked is to defend yourself. I am just not sure if what Israel is doing is in fact the most effective form of defence in the long term. In the short term, maybe, if they suceed in killing all the members of Hizbullah. But this looks very unlikely. Since Israel's invasion of Lebanon, rocket attacks have increased hundredfolds. Even if they do wipe out most of the present group of Hizbullah, there will be plenty of new recruits to step forward, and so the situation will be an endless cycle of violence, which I don't think is to either sides advantage. One problem has been the tendency of Western administrations (e.g the White House, Blair) to portray Hizbullah as criminal lunatics, madmen from outer space etc., summarised in the convenient term 'terrorist'. As Oscar Wilde said 'an alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you'. I'm not saying that Hizbullah don't terrorise Israeli people living near the border with their rockets, but the Lebanese are equally terrified of being killed by 500 lb bombs that might come through their ceilings at any moment. The Israeli's have a primary responsibility to their own citizens, of course. But to get peace in the area we need to get at the root problems, not just kill or imprison a few gunmen here or there, or flatten half a country. Like I said in a previous thread, it is the mentality of all sides that the problems can be solved with bomb and bullet that is the problem. It is not enough to say Hizbullah must stop its rocket attacks. Hizbullah are fighting for their survival too, and if I was in their situation, I wouldn't give up my arms to be shot down like a dog or thrown in prison for the rest of my life. Nor are the Israelis going to see any sense in just going home. Knesset has said this would be a sign of weakness and invite further trouble. But Knesset may be wrong about that. As the militarily more powerful country by a big margain, Israel could make a real break with the cycle of violence by agreeing to an immediate ceasefire. Remember rocket attacks greatly increased since the invasion, halting it and even pulling back a little as a show of faith might well have the effect of stopping or reducing the attacks. Hizbullah at present feel no need to show any restraint since there is a de facto war in progress. A cessation by Hizbullah alone would not be a sign of magnaminity, but simply a sign of capitulation by the logically weaker combatant. Little moral effect could be achieved from this. Israel has stated that the kidnapping of IDF soldiers was one of the principal motivations for the invasion, but I have shown in a previous post why this is far removed from the truth. On the other hand Israel itself kidnapped a number of palestinians shortly prior to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, and most recently kidnapped a prominent member of the Hamas government, who claims he was beaten in custody. They also hold hundreds of palestinians in prison, many for years without trial. As a goodwill gesture they could release large numbers of these, especially those that have been there longest. Israel could gain enormous propaganda value from such moves, and it would be an enormous moral boost to prospects for peace. You might ask 'why should Israel be the one to make these moves?' Well, first off, you could equally ask why is it that when Rice and Bush open their mouths it is always to ask Hamas or Hizbullah to make the first move, and never Israel. But more importantly it is, as I said, precisely because Israel IS the stronger party, that they have most to gain from making such moves. They create a strong moral precedent that is hard to ignore. It doesn't help that the Western leaders tend to keep regurgitating the same old claptrap that Hamas and Hizbullah are above all, 'terrorists' (before they are human beings) and that you can no more negotiate with them than you could with whooping cough or diptheria. That in turn tends to back Israel into a corner where they feel any negotiations to be a sign of weakness rather than magnamity and maturity. Whatever extremist element drives Hamas and Hizbullah (and indeed, the IDF) could be isolated far more effectively by modertaion and negotiation, though this may not be as glamorous and in keeping with the 'hard man' image so popular at present. You would find fewer arabs willing to support Hamas or Hizbullah if Israel could barter a just and fair deal with the palestinians. This would mean reviewing the route of the infamous wall that cuts through palestinian territory, not creating new settlements into palestine while demolishing old ones, not cutting off / blockading aid to the Hamas government (elected democratically as the choice of the palestinian people) etc., Hamas in turn would have to clamp down on the extremist elements. But though it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, I think it would be better for Israel to make the first moves, and not allow the US to bully Hamas / Hizbullah to do so, as usual. Sure, it's a big gamble, and we're talking years or even decades, but everyone has a lot to gain - except the extremists, who will find themselves in a minority pretty fast. There's nothing like a little prosperity, stability and peace to de-radicalise a people. At present, with 70% unemployement, and practically no public money available, young palestinian men have little to do except stand round watching IDF artillery shells flatten their houses, feel resentful and seek revenge. And as the militarily stronger country, they could quickly regain lost ground (or pulverise it, anyway) if none of this worked out. The 'iron fist' advocated by Bush (who eggs Israel on for his own reasons) has been shown to be a profound failure in creating a better world order / a more peaceful world. Extremism is far more widespread, previously lethargic people all round the world have been radicalised by his blatant bias and hypocrisy, countries like Iraq have been reduced to ashes in the name of 'democracy' and driven to civil war. This is no way forward,and we need people with longer-range vision than Bush and his cabinet of cronies. Knesset / Israel could break the mould here and not just follow the tired old warmongering rhetoric under the shadow of the White House.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

Nick, I hear you. While I do support Israel, I too think the methodology is counter-productive. But when the only tool ya have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I think there will be an enforced peace that addresses the concerns of the parties involved, but it will drag to allow Israel to inflict more damage on Hezbollah. That will mean more civilian deaths, but what is the alternative for Israel? Leave Hezbollah in place and pretend they didn't attack Israel? The Isreali people will not stand for that.

All one has to do is read the world press. Nothing has changed really. The same people/countries that slagged Isreal before this war simply continue to slag Israel. From an Isreali perspective, they have no reason to stop. Hezbollah's avowed purpose is the complete and utter destruction of Israel--the country and the people. So, again, why would Israel feel any sense of needing to attend peace talks when they know that the day after the talks, Hezbollah will be upto the same old crap again?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:12 AM

Israel claims it is morally right to attack the civilian homes of Hezbulla, thereby killing their families.

All Israelis have to serve in the military, men & women (except a few religious scholars), so Hezbullah see no 'just civilians', either, so from their viewpoint, attacking Israeli civilian houses must be OK too...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:20 AM

The difference you seem to miss--and you are too clever not to miss it intentionally--is that Hezbollah purposely targets civilians (they have said to in a few Arabic publications) while Israel does its best to target the sources of Hexbollah rocket fire and buildings from which they have been fired on. It is not Israel's fault that Hezbollah hides amongst the civilian population, Robin. And you are certainly clever enough to know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

But Hezbullah is determined to exterminate an enemy that has come to steal the land that their grandfathers were born and died on, and these enemies (who wish to drive out the existing inhabitants) believe that some old guy somewhere told them that HE gave them this land... thus a battle to the death ensues ...

Two Nations Enter - One Nation Lives!

Welcome to Thunderdome!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

These arguments go 'round and 'round but the truth is this:

There are factions of Muslims who want to see Israel destroyed.
There are factions of Israelis who want to see the concept of Palestine as a nation destroyed.

There are atrocities on both sides. One country's "freedom fighters" are another's "terrorists".

Innocent people are being killed. This is justified in the name of nationalism.

On one hand..the IDF...on the other Hezbollah.

Israel is justifying violence through land expansion by turning Gaza into a Canton.
Hezbollah is firing rockets and killing innocents in Israel.
Israel has evicted Muslim people from their homes and destroyed those homes.
Hezbollah is marginalized to the point that there will be no constructive talks with them as a party.
There are innocent Muslims who do not agree with the Hezbollah violence.
There are people within Israel who do not approve of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza or the bombing of Lebanon.

The Bush Administration has taken Israel's side but historically has sold weapons to Sadam Hussein and Iran.

There is enough perfidy on all sides to make you wonder if the world is a great big madhouse.

At the root of the problem as always lies religious differences.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:45 PM

Re: From: Peace
"So, again, why would Israel feel any sense of needing to attend peace talks when they know that the day after the talks, Hezbollah will be upto the same old crap again?"

I know, I know. I was at an anti-war rally today, and the organisers, though criticising Israel for their onslaught into Lebanon, in the same breath said that even if Hizbullah were to win and control an independent palestine, it would be very unlikely to produce a governemnet dedicated to personal freedom, and be more along the lines of the Taliban, or the House of Saud (which adds deep corruption to fundamentalism). They also pointed out that while Israel has the right to defend itself, it has gone far beyond that in Lebanon - e.g it has bombed cities far north of the area where Hizbullah have operated, has destroyed most of the infrastructure - infrastructure which Lebanon painstakingly rebuilt for 15 years after their civil war and a previous Israeli occupation ended - and in effect, punished the Lebanese population. Furthermore there is the issue of the Shaaba farms, the source of the Litani river, which as I already said, is one of the aims of Israel. Israel still refuses to hand these back to lebanon.
Hizbullah and the other extremists can be marginalised and deafeated even, but not in the way Ehud Olmert and Bush want to go about it. they are applying the military solution, but the only way that can achieve its aim is through genocide. The more you apply it, the more you marginalise and destroy people's lives, and the more you radicalise them. After all, if you've lost your job / livelihood, your house, your hobbies, your whole life, and maybe even some of your friends and family, there's nothing left except radical politics. Your life becomes cheap and you want revenge for the wrongs that have been done to you. You can see it also in Israelis who have been targeted by Hizbullah rockets - blind support for Olmert and the IDF, perhaps a burning resentment towards Muslims, aho come to be associated with hizbullah etc.,
My suggestion is that terrorism can, contrary to popular logic, be defeated by kindness. It's a radical idea, I know, but one that still remains to be tried. Sure, you will always have a small percentagefor whom mayhem is a chosen way of life, but they can be greatly marginalised by giving the population as a whole hope and a standard of living. Their faith needs to be restored in the mechanisms of democracy and dialogue. At present, that is not the case, and the White House administartion - especially Cheney, Rice and other eminence grises bear a lot of the blame (Israel would not be so self-confidently attacking left right and centre if it did not feel supported by the White House for one thing). Rice et al, have helped make the UN security council a talk shop or puppet, for enforcing the will of the powerful nations. Israel has ignored plenty of UN resolutions, and the US made a joke of them by calling for a UN resolution to sanction an invasion of Iraq, but going ahead and invading it anyway before one was forthcoming. This shows that the real function of the UN is to give the gloss of respectability to what the powerful nations want to do. There was a cartoon in one of the papers here about Rice, when she said the time wasn't right for a ceasefire. It showed her standing with lebanon in the background being slowly reduced to rubble, and saying 'not yet.....not yet...." and finally, when everything was destroyed 'now!'. Palestinians, Hizbullah and most of the Arab world are no less intelligent than we in the west and they can see this blatant bias and hypocrisy a mile away. While arab governements may not do much, it is their young population who get indignant, so indignant that they go and sign up to HJzbullah or the taliban or whatever, making western accustaions of 'arab terrorism' a self-fulfilling prophecy. The US gives over $1 billion in aid to Israel every year. If some of that money was diverted to alleviating suffering in palestine (the US was giving SOME money to palestine, but a pittance compared to what Israel got, and none now that the palestinians have used their democratic vote 'incorrectly' to elect Hamas as their leadership) and to rebuild lebanon, you would see much goodwill generated in the arab world. The funds could be carefully monitored to ensure they did not go into armaments etc., Israel could make the moves I suggested above, and the US could start acting more impartially. All of this would, believe me, bring about a dramatic change. It would need to be open and transparent and honest though. The benefits would be peace in the middle east, far better security around the world, far fewer terrorist attacks, if any, and a good deal for everyone. As long as arabs in the region see that UN resolutions are enforced only with respect to them, and that all the funding goes to one side only, and that Israel is allowed to grab land, get away with having nuclear weapons etc., while they are not, their dignity if not their survival will demand thgat they fight.
If the weak countries are the only ones obliged to paly by the rules and must make all the moves, and the first moves, nothing will be achieved. That is because it will impossible to escape the conclusion that they had to do so BECAUSE they were weak. On the the other hand, if the powerful countries, like the US, Britain and Israel were to show some generosity of spirit, real progress could be made, and the confidence of the arab people rebuilt.
This is not likely to happen though. Bush, Rice, Olmert are too short-sighted to see there are no real winners in the way they are going, and that it will mean an ever more unstable world. Moreover, it would interfere with their stated aim of creating a new middle east - one with its people and oil very much under US domination (e.g look at Iraq: with its recently elected puppet government. The White House tolerated Saddam the monster for years until he went 'rogue' and bit the hand that fed him). Condoleeza Rice disgustingly called all these deaths in Lebanon - including the deaths of hundreds of children - 'the birth pangs of a new middle east' Birth pangs are normally associated with something good - birth, new life - but in Rice's twisted mind, she sees it as death clearing away unwanted Arabs and reshaping their lands - in short, Lebensraum. Like I said in an earlier post, the Nazi mentality is not confined to the Nazis alone, though the flags and slogans and symbols may be different. I don't wish to offend anyone by this statement, just call a spade a spade. They (US, Israel and Britain) are enboldened in this project by the collapse of the old Soviet Union (which would have blocked some of this exapansion in the middle east long ago, had the cold war still been in force). Don't just take my word for it, check out for example But it may yet come into conflict with China - who is casting equally covetous eyes on the middleast's oil, vital for its accelerating eceonomy. Thanks to all these myopic warmongerers, we may yet see World War Three in our lifetimes. I hope not.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:54 PM

Nick: I truly appreciate your thoughtful and considered reply. You are a good man, and I hope you keep well and keep saying what you're saying. Because you're absolutely right.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:54 PM

For some interstin reason or another, a website that I invited readers to check out for themslves mysteriously disappeared when my post was submitted. So, here it is again, in pieces, to help avoid the censor gremlins: www and now the next bit(don't forget the dot after www) new american century (that should be all one word, again with a dot after it) and finally org (as in organisation) Hopefully it'll get posted this time!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:10 PM

Here's your link, Nick.

If we end up sharing a cell, I will be straight up front right now: I friggin' dislike rap music.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM

Peace: Thanks for your kind word. I'm glad to see the website I mentioned made it through this time. By the way, I should add, for the benefit of Brits, Israeli and US readers, that when 'I say the US must..' or 'Israel shoud..' I am talking about the governments of those countries, and not so much the people. Sure, the people elect the governments (or almost, in the case of Bush: much helped in his presidential bid by legal wrangling) but then governments often go rogue and don't do the things they promised and we asked them to do at election time. If they had signed a contract they could be sued for breach of contract. The way I look at it is that in western democracies, most governments are wilfully disobedient to their electorate, because in a democracy, and especially in a Republic (The US is one such), ultimate power resides in the people. Government are simply the day-to-day administrators chosen by the people, charged witha job to do. Many of our so-called democratic leaders get some kind of amnesia once they get into government and anoint themselves as mini-kings, to rule over the serfs. I know there are many, many ordinary people from all walks of life in the US totally opposed to the war in Iraq, a huge number, if not a majority of Britions opposed to Blair acting as Bush's pet poodle, and a considerable number of Israelis not happy with the way Knesset is acting in Palestine and Lebanon. But their voices tend to get ignored by the leaders once they get in power. And then we lecture the Arabs on democracy!
One ironic tragedy of the middle east conflict is that Jews and Arabs are actually first cousins, all descended from the original 12 Tribes of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM

Forgot to add my name to my last post!

Peace: thanks for sorting the link, and don't worry - I did use to listen to Public Enemy (still good, R-DMC and Ice T a few (a good few) years back, but have since grown out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:29 PM

Rap is to music what gang rape is to making love.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:31 PM

The document itself--which I read closely about four years ago (maybe five)--is scary. Interesting to see that one of its creators, Paul Wolfowitz, is now President of the World Bank. Yep! No one here but us innocents . . . .

However, PNAC very clearly describes the Neocon agenda. I am glad some folks are taking it seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:34 PM

Yes, and there were many comments about Paul Wolfowitz in the media at the time, along the lines of 'putting a shark in charge of a swimming pool'. They are putting their key people into key positions.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:36 PM

There is an interesting confluence of events abot to take place. Elections in the US coming up at the same time Homeland Security is running 'drills' and practices. Lots of troops moving around the US, and the recent 'scare' with regard to possible terrorist activity aimed at the USA--what's that look like to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:29 PM

Anytime the US govt starts talking about terror scares, it makes me wonder what new measures it wants to psychologically bully the population into accepting.

I read the Sunday Times the other day, claiming that Iran was trying to organise the smuggling of uranium out of Congo, but the effort was thwarted in Tanzania by customs, who were told to 'hush it up'. Iran angrily denied this, saying they had sources of uranium within Iran already and didn't need to import it. Now it would be easy to dismiss Iran's reaction, but far more importantly, the Congolese government also said there wasn't any truth in it, but their comments were nowhere to be found a day or two after they appeared on Yahoos news service.
I had a sense of deja vu - wasn't this one of the same excuses for invading Iraq (that it was importing yellow cake uranium ore from, I think, Nigeria)? It doesn't say much for the British and US governments' disdain for the credibility of people, that they are wheeling out the same old off-the-shelf fake excuses. Expect an invasion of Iran sometime soon, all as part of the plan for a new American Century.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:36 PM

"August 06, 2006
Iran seeking bomb-making uranium from the area that produced the Hiroshima bomb
August 1939 Alert: "Iran's plot to mine uranium in Africa," from the "TimesOnline, with thanks to Sam:

IRAN is seeking to import large consignments of bomb-making uranium from the African mining area that produced the Hiroshima bomb, an investigation has revealed.

A United Nations report, dated July 18, said there was "no doubt" that a huge shipment of smuggled uranium 238, uncovered by customs officials in Tanzania, was transported from the Lubumbashi mines in the Congo.

Tanzanian customs officials told The Sunday Times it was destined for the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas, and was stopped on October 22 last year during a routine check."


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

This may be the article you mention, Nick.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

Someone further back along this thread scoffed that there was any comparison between Zionists and Nazi ideology, saying 'where are the gas chambers etc.,' and also saying Isarelis are fighting a clean fight (if you can call bombs etc., a clean fight - I suppose they are as far as the modern 'rules' of warfare go). Here's an interesting link that says Isarelis have been using some new kind of weapons in Lebanon, who knows, maybe field testing them. These may be chemical or biological agents, or perhaps some kind of direct energy weapons, such as microwave etc., At any rate a number of lebanese caualties are turning up with strange wounds, necrosis of tissue, burns, dead without any sign of injury etc.,

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/07/28/10055658.html

There was also a very good article on the whole Israel invasion of Lebanon in an Indian paper called 'Frontline' but unfortunately I don't have the link, so anyone interested will just have to 'search engine' it. The gist of the first part of the article was to point out that when the two Israeli soldiers were captured, they were actually inside Lebanon on some kind of mission. Their tank was hit, the crew surrendered after a gunfight.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:29 PM

I do not believe anything that comes from the Arab press. It is too tightly controlled by Hezbollah.

And I would not trust results coming from any laboratory in the Arab world. If a few independent labs verified that Israel was using chemical weapons, I would turn on them the way a pissed off rattlesnake bites anything near it. But for now, I think articles of that nature are propaganda from the Arab viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

Peace: yup, that looks like the article all right. Interesting that the Sunday Times and the IAEA lets Dubya off the hook by reminding us that the International Atomic Energy Agency found the documents to have been forged, but only after Bush had used them to back his attack on Iraq. Thus, he couldn't possibly have known they were fake, could he? Just like the famous WMD....


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

"Brussels, July 20, IRNA
Belgium-Lebanon
Eight bodies of victims killed by the use of chemical weapons have been found in Lebanon, a group of Belgian doctors of Lebanese-origin told a press conference in Brussels Thursday.

Professor Bachir Cham, a Belgian surgeon of Lebanese origin, addressed the press conference via mobile phone direct from Beirut.

He said all the eight bodies bought to the hospital in Sidon turned black but bore no burn marks and chemical substances were found on their bodies.

Cham said the chemical bombs were dropped by Israeli planes.

Dr. Mohammad Farran, an heart specialist, said they had sent letters to the United Nations and the European Union drawing their attention to the use of chemical weapons by Israel in Lebanon.

Michel Aoun, former Lebanese prime minister and current head of the 'Free Patriotic Movement' also spoke directly from Lebanon by mobile phone."

This was reported on July 20. Problem is, what is the chemical? Name it. This is groundless propaganda. The Israelis are using chemicals. Hell, if I were going to make an accusation of that nature, I would want to walk in to the meeting room and say, "The Israelis are using __________, __________ and _____________. Here's the proof." Instead we get Lebanese doctors making general statements. Whoop dee doo. With that and a buck one can ride the bus. I think it is BS.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

PS, Nick. That post is not aimed at you. I am aware that you are a peace guy who has no dog in the fight. IMO, Hezbollah started this war but got much more than they bargained for. The Hezbollah death toll is in the hundreds, and it will get higher as the days go on and Israel intensifies its attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:53 PM

Peace: perhaps you're right. We'll have to wait and see if anything comes of it. The only thing though is, if you are a doctor, you might see burns or marks on a body, and recognise that it is not a typical wound, and suspect that some kind of chemical agent cuased it, without actually being able to name the chemical or identify its structure. Identifying excatly what kind of chemical you are dealing with can take time in a laboratory and specialised equipment. Even the police, when they seize illegal drugs (even well known ones) have to send them to a lab for analysis to see if they are actually substances controlled by law (to identify exactly the chemical structure) before they can prosecute.
It may be that there is no truth to the allegations, until the tissue samples and substances are analysed we won't have a conclusive answer. I suppose they have had a good bit of time to study these chemical substances (you say July 20th?) so you'd expect them to have identified some of them by now if there were any. But I don't know how long these things take.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM

"The paper said it was time for the Arab voice to be heard and to have an effect in the world, especially against the 'war criminals in the Zionist entity who are committing the massacres of the century.'"

From here.

Gotta love that, huh?: massacres of the century. One would have thought the Arab press might think Lebanon pales in comparison to Muslim-led genocide in Africa; however . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

Muslim genocide:

Sudan--hundreds of thousands
Rwanda--hundreds of thousands

General terrorism:

Madrid
London
Israel
Iraq
Mumbai


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:31 PM

yeah, they don't have so much to say about that.

Some people say religion is at the base of it all - the desire to convert people at gunpoint. Muslim, Christian, they have done it in the past. You would love to ask them how many people did Jesus / Muhammed hold a gun to the head of? How many converts did they make with threats of physical violence? Maybe the gross misinterpretation of the religious message or something.

On the other hand, I know that in Ireland they were supposed to have a religious conflict in Northern Ireland, protestant against catholic. On closer inspection it turned out to be about have and have-not. It just so happened that those of one religion had more than the other and used their position to keep the other side down. Often so-called religious conflicts have socio-economic roots.

I wonder why the UN isn't in bigger force in places like Sudan etc.,? The Muslim paramilitaries there are vicious. They have committed appaling atrocities. You never hear much about it in the media either, like it's not important what happens to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

ya think?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:29 PM

The Rwanda genocide was not instigated by Muslims. Sorry about that. The rest were. I'm sorry about that, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:48 PM

From the Toronto Star:

"It is with tremendous dismay that I watch how the terrible ignorance of history and of the present reality — an ignorance so clearly fuelled by the media — turns otherwise decent people into warmongers. If all those individuals, particularly my fellow Jews, would inform themselves of what really happened to create the state of Israel and of what is actually happening now, they would be unable to stomach, much less support, the American-led Israeli political and military machine."


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:25 PM

From the Ottawa Citizen

For Israel, the war was equally inevitable. No freely-elected government can stand and watch its citizens attacked and terrorized. For years Hezbollah had been dropping Katyushas into Israel's northern farms, without response. Since the year 2000, Israel had depended upon a final border with Lebanon, agreed by all parties through the U.N., in the hope of containing the problem. Finally Hezbollah performed a provocation larger and cockier than Israel could ignore. The capture of two IDF soldiers, infinitely more than the killing of six, was calculated to force a response. Israelis are rightly horrified at the thought of their own sons and daughters falling captive to such animals. Mere death they are accustomed to.

Those who have argued that Israel's response was "disproportionate" should learn how to feel shame. Hezbollah fired several thousand Katyusha and other rockets, almost all of them aimed at civilian targets -- and fired them from within Lebanese villages, crawling with "human shields". For more than a month, nearly a million Israelis were trapped in air raid shelters, while the devastation accumulated above them.

What would have been a proportionate response? Should Israel have lobbed a few thousand bunker-busters casually into Lebanon's villages and towns? If they had done that, would the Jew-haters and Jew-baiters of the world have shut up?

But now the ceasefire is a catastrophe for Israel to harvest, and Lebanon to share. And it was Israel's fault. Not for trying to destroy Hezbollah, but for failing to do so. A weak and stupid prime minister, Ehud Olmert, spent five crucial weeks changing his mind about what he was doing. The entire ruling establishment exposed itself as crippled by "political correctness", trying to fight against an enemy like Hezbollah, with the chief object of limiting civilian casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM

The attempt to limit civilian casualties has resulted in Israeli (IDF) deaths. The racist element here does not see that had Israel pulled out all the stops, Lebanese deaths would have numbered in the tens of thousands by now. However, some people will accept any excuse to denigrate Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM

Israelis still have a victim mentality. As LH said, for a victim, there can only be one victim. They are perpetrators, but while they still see themselves as victims, the rest of the world sees Lebanon as the victim of Israel's invasion and obliteration. In Lebanon, 9/11 has been happening every day for weeks.

Why is the Israeli army occupying Lebanon? when will they get out?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

When will Hezbollah get out? Answer that and you'll have the answer to when the Israelis will leave. Simple really.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:31 PM

"the rest of the world sees Lebanon as the victim of Israel's invasion and obliteration."

Majority back Harper's support of Israel, poll shows

Vito Pilieci, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Monday, August 14, 2006

An overwhelming number of Canadians support Prime Minister Stephen Harper's assertion that Israel's attacks on Lebanon are justified because Israel has a right to self defence and say Iran and Syria are wrong to have armed Hezbollah, according to a new poll to be released today.

The poll, which was conducted by public opinion researcher COMPAS Inc., will appear today in the news magazine Western Standard. The poll states that 82 per cent of Canadians asked believe that Israel has a right to self defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: C. Ham
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM

Why is the Israeli army occupying Lebanon? when will they get out?

Gee Freda, why don't you try turning on the news. It's been widely reported that Israel will pull their troops out of Lebanon when the Lebanese and UN forces arrive to take up their positions.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM

Easy on Freda, Hammy. She reads no newspapers, watches no TV, listens to no radio and gets all her news from Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:29 PM

"When will Hezbollah get out?"

Don't most of them LIVE there?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

The Lebanese government is constituted by Lebanese. Their deal was to get Hezbollah away from the border area and disarm them. They agreed to that two years ago. They started a war.

The Israelis live in Israel, and were it not for repeated attacks by arseholes like Hamas and Hezbollah, they'd be happy to remain in Israel.

Hezbollah are NOT the Lebanese government, despite holding some seats. Lebanon will be happy when they are gone, too. Hell, the government is afraid to send troops into the south part of their country BECAUSE of Hezbollah. They want to wait for a stronger UN force to 'pair off' with. In short, screw Hezbollah. They are trash, they started a war that has led to the deaths of over 1000 people, and the bastards should be found and dealt with.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

"Lebanon will be happy when they are gone, too."

Well, that seemed to be the case before the recent Israeli "Shock and Awe" tactic of flattening large chunks of the country all over, including Maronite Christian Residential Areas, in an attempt to intimidate the populace of Southern Lebanon.

Previous attempts to terrify civilian populations by massive Air Power have mostly failed if not followed up by 'Boots on the Ground' as the British, then the Germans themselves were among the first to demonstrate.

It now seems that large sections of the population of Southern Lebanon (where these nasty militarist thugs hang out!) have been deluded into believing that if it were not for these 'brave resistance fighters', Israel would have seized all of Lebanon, like other nearby areas 'liberated' by Israel in previous military conflicts.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:04 PM

Six months from now it WILL be the case. The Lebanese are frightened of them. Hell, the gave a good account of themselves against the Israelis, and IMO, troop for troop they are as good as any army out there. BUT, make no mistake about it Robin, Hezbollah has GOT TO GO. If the UN and Lebanese don't do it, the Israelis will. There is no third option.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:14 PM

"Hezbollah has GOT TO GO."

Yeah, well that's what most people eventually agreed about Hitler, but at first, and for a good many years, there were lots of influential people around the world who greatly admired the way he 'encouraged business, building of services like roads, reduced unemployment, and gave the people a great sense of pride in their country'....


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:21 PM

True. But that reminds me of a remark by George Burns. Burns was about 80 at the time and an interviewer said, "How many martinis do you drink per day?" Burns said, "Five or six." The interviewer then asked, "And how many cigars do you have each day?" Burns said "About five or six." The interviewer then inquired, "What does your doctor say about that?" Burns replied, "I don't know. He's dead."


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:26 PM

"If the UN and Lebanese don't do it, the Israelis will."

They can TRY...

Not too sure the Israeli populace will be so eager to be fooled to believe that it will be easy next time - their elite 'invincible' military machine got a bloody nose this time, against 'those primitive undisciplined poorly equipped untrained stupid gooks'... say, where have I heard that before... and just how many times before...

War is a process of attrition, economic, resources, morale, political, population, goodwill of 'friends', etc... and if a country insists that all its citizens do military service, and then insists on attacking the civilian homes of its opponents, then wailing about their own civilian's homes being targeted seems a little 'precious' to me...

There are ALWAYS other options.... other than 'War Without End'...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:29 PM

"insists on attacking the civilian homes of its opponents"

You just don't give up, do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:36 PM

Neither do 'militarist thugs' - 'honorable war' is their only solution....


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 12:07 AM

It is BS that the Israelis target homes of civilians. They target homes where intelligence sources tell them there are Hezbollah/Hamas folks. One BIG difference there, Robin. Then the Israelis make courtesy calls telling the occupants to leave. I suppose they can't all the time, but they have and do when they are able to. We have walked this path before. All Hezbollah has to do is what the Lebanese government wants them to do. Simple, really.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM

Now this is an interesting viewpoint on Lebanon ...

Time for tea

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:55 AM

Yes, very interesting.

Food for thought.

Here's another twist:

http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/pages/afn01.html


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:35 AM

"They target homes where intelligence sources tell them there are Hezbollah/Hamas folks. One BIG difference there, Robin. Then the Israelis make courtesy calls telling the occupants to leave."

Ok, I'll try to understand this ...

"target homes where intelligence sources tell them there are Hezbollah/Hamas folks"

with you there... provided that the intelligence is accurate - and we have seen just how inaccurate even the US Intelligence machine is, what with bombing weddings and shooting up civilians driving tractors and all that...
Yes, the Israelis have said that they wish to kill these nasty guys...

"Then the Israelis make courtesy calls telling the occupants to leave"

Hello Robin, we're coming to blow the shit out of your house!

F***! Everybody out!

HUH! so the nasty guys can then just run away before the bombs come? So when they run away, they still destroy the houses? Like destroying the houses of the families of the suicide nutters in Gaza?




Hmmmm... Since they built the Sydney Harbour Tunnel there's this old rusty bridge for sale... cheap if you give me an answer real quick...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

Hey, I know where we will be safe - they'll never bomb the family grave yard at the end of the street...


Oooops..


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:55 PM

"Little Hawk--you and all of you who insist on comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and the Final Solution thereby undercut any credibility the rest of your argument might have. It is odious and trivializes Nazism. Please show me the trains going to the gas chambers and concentration camps; show me the crescents on the garments of muslims or tattoos on their arms. Show me gangs of Jews rampaging through the streets of Tel Aviv destroying Arab homes and businesses, and just beating them up for the fun of it. Get real!"

I'm not trying to compare Israel to anywhere. It does strike me, though, that if the cameras & the media aren't there to photograph & record & report, you don't actually know what's happening, do you?

Does that sound like Nazi Germany to you? Rwanda? And various other places throughout history. I reckon if this were another, older, less well reported age, there would be concentration camps & gas chambers out there. Some of them would be run by Jews, some of them by Arabs. It's nothing to do with Jews & Arabs, any more than the notion of wholesale slaughter & genocide was a Nazi invention. The Nazis just mechanized the process to a much greater degree than anyone who had gone before.

This is basic human nature. Not yours, not mine, but OURS. It's been part of our psyche since before we invented "civilization" (hahahahahaha... :( ).

Israel would cheerfully be running gas chambers & concentration camps if they thought they could get away with it. So would the Arabs, of every stripe. Look at what happened in the former Yugoslavia. They're still finding the mass graves, & that was in the "Old World", Europe!

They can't, so in the meanwhile both sides do what they can. If Israel hadn't invaded Lebanon over a couple of abducted soldiers, the vast majority of a couple of thousand dead wouldn't be dead, never mind all the displacement, destruction & attendant human misery.

You know what the people (Jewish, Arab, whoever) want? They want to be left alone to live their lives in peace.

It's the fanatics who keep killing everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 02:10 PM

Well said, Raedwulf.

Its difficult for the children of the Middle East (in Canada) to understand the conflict in their homeland because, here, they get along just fine. They do not see this as a Jewish/Arab conflict. They see it as a struggle for political power that has nothing to do with the everyday lives of the people.

War mongers do not care about human misery. They are safely hiding in their gated communities surrounded by home security and watch dogs. They have absolutely no idea how to interract positively with their neighbors or with each other. The only game they know is power and wealth.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

And now Israel is refusing to allow troops from Muslim countries with which it does not have diplomatic relations (Malaysia & Indonesia) to participate - even though they will be stationed only in Lebanon!


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

Raedwulf: "Israel would cheerfully be running gas chambers & concentration camps if they thought they could get away with it. So would the Arabs, of every stripe. Look at what happened in the former Yugoslavia. They're still finding the mass graves, & that was in the "Old World", Europe!"

Exactly what I have been saying here and elsewhere. It's just human nature, not Jews or Arabs or Europeans or whatever. The Geneva Conventions? In any fight to the death, there is just one rule in war: to win. If you win, you don't have to worry about the Geneva Conventions. If you lose, you won't be able to complain anyway. If the Nazis had won WW2 we would hear all about how Germany saved civilisation and ended the corrupt regimes of the US and Britain - if any of us were still alive, of course! Thankfully they didn't, but that still means we have to listen to loads of crap about how Britian and America saved the world (and in Russia people got to hear how it was Dear Comrade Stalin - though he killed more of his own people in purges almost than the Nazis did). I still laugh (darkly) at the irony of reading in history books how Nazis and Soviets each in turn 'liberated' countries from each other. From the frying pan to the fire. Sure, Britain and the US were not as totalitarian as either of the other two states, but there has been a growing trend towards totalitarianism in recent years. The so-called war on terror has been hijacked by George Blair / Tony Bush to roll back hard-won civil liberties, spy on ordinary people and crush political dissent. This effort goes way beyond the nonsense that the secret services get up to. It is being done above all by limiting public discourse: certain topics are considered of limits, or must be talked about within a certain framework. Any dissent from this (i.e open minded thought) leads to accusations of supporting terrorists, being racist or anti-semitic. Back in the middle ages daring to question the Bible could bring the inquisition to your door - you were simply not allowed to even question certain ideas or viewpoints. And that is the first sign of an ailing, sick democracy - the control of public opinion and thought. Sure, you might say, aren't we talking about it here? Yes, but if you look back over the thread you'll see how when comparisons are made between the actions of the Israeli State (not even about Jewish people, note) and Nazis, immediately there are shrill cries of 'anti-semite!' and 'racist!'. I can of course understand how someone Jewish would feel offended by the reference on grounds of emotion, history and psyche. Irish people might feel a bit offended by being called Black and Tan, for example. But if I am NOT allowed to say something, then I want to say it simply to make the point that the days when the church or stalinist state or whatever, are supposed to be over, and if we pride ourselves so much on our democracy that we think it's worth exporting, then we should have freedom to be devil's advocate and at least discuss the idea. Moreover, in a world where you are not allowed to make comparisons betwen Nazis and Jews, comparison between Nazis and un-favoured groups, such as Islamic fundamentalists are quite permitted. I have no problem with the latter connections being made if they illustrate an idea, but I disagree that one should not have the same freedom to make the former connection as well, if one chooses. It's about as simplistic as saying that since black people have historically been the ones discriminated against by whites, therefore balck people CANNOT be racist, and it is offensive to call a black person 'racist' but not to call a white person 'racist'. Not only is this totally a idiotic solipism, but it is dangerously stupid as it denies human nature and means the dialogue is limited to nonsense and half of the picture. My guess is that the constant fighting with ethnically different neighbours has probably polarised at least some Arabs and Jews to racist viewpoints. For instances of anti-Arab racism amongst Jews, you could check out this link:
Anti-Arab graffiti in Jewish settlements

The point has been made - to suggest that only one side of a conflict is capable of racism or even Nazi-esque behaviour, as is being suggested here and by G.Bush and elements of the right-wing media (the irony of right wingers throwing the term 'fascist' around so freely is not lost on me!) by repeated use of the terms 'fascist' and 'Nazi' in relation to Muslims is not only absurd, it prevents any real understanding of the conflict and thus, a resolution. I do disagree however, with the association of the words Zionists and Nazis if the intention is merely to upset and insult Zionists. If you start out by insulting people (Arabs, Jews, blacks, whoever) and pretty soon you end up hating them and then you want to kill them and the devil's work is complete. (I am not thinking of anyone on this thread, I'm just making the point)

As Raedwulf said, the mindset is everywhere: the Nazis had it, Islamic fundamentalists have it, Zionists have it - or they can all tend towards it at any rate. The need to caricature and demonise your enemied so it becomes all right to kill them, the need to crush all voice of dissent, so insecure is the totalitarianism even when it exercises power etc.,

Worst of all, G.Bush, Rice and Cheney have it in buckets, as do their more right-wing supporters. They have convinced themselves that it is time to silence the whiny, bleeding heart liberals before they turn the whole world 'soft'. Bush etc., seem to genuinely believe they are men of action, hard men taking a soft world in hand. They see the wolrd in simplistic black and white terms where they are the 'goodies', crusaders, democrats and their opponents are all 'fanatics' fascists and lunatics / terrorists. What they do not appreciate is that no dispute was ever solved permanently through violence (it always keeps cropping up again thanks to the resentment it brings, plus violence teaches others how we expect to be interacted with ourselves). Worse, they accuse their opponents of being teh ones with a simplistic view of the world ('the speck in your brother's eye and the beam in your own').

As I've said before, the only military solution to so-called 'terrorism' is some form of genocide. If Bush etc., think that's a reasonable way to deal with terrorism, they have cut away from themselves any moral ground they might have had to stand on. I've already suggested there is a far better way to deal with terrorism - a fair and just world that removes inequalities and isolates the truly wantonly violent (who are few and far between).

One problem many people like myself have with Western foriegn policy is that it is stirring up massive resentment in the Arab world. Let's face it here - while Muslims might have managed to stage a few terror attacks in the west, it is our troops who are in their countries. Our troops were in their countries long before all the recent wave of terror attcaks started, and even before that, our governements were conspiring behind the scenes to manipulate the middle eastern countries to the detriment of their populations. So it's easy to understand how Muslims might feel it is we who are trying to destroy their way of life, and not the other way round. When they try and hit back - and they are not strong enough to attack the west in an all-out conventional war (especially as they lag behind in gthe nuclear race), our governments use it as an excuse to clamp down on our freedom. So, if these so-called Islamic extremists were intending to destroy our democracies, they have our governments on-side helping them out already. Bush etc., won't seem to be satisfied until they've started WW3. The only problem is, people like myself will have to live with it, whether we want to or not, it's a small world.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 08:58 PM

"people like myself will have to live with it, whether we want to or not,"

... and the Bushites, etc, will be safe in the nuclear proof bunkers that we, the taxpayers have paid for... safe to emerge and keep the selfish madness going....


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:02 PM

When's the last time a leader got it in war? It's ALWAYS someone else's kids. Nasrallah did his studying in Iran (Qom). Any wonder the pig fu#ker wages war against the world?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:18 PM

Peace,

Have a cup of tea, a Bex, and a good lie down...

Peace, Man...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:19 PM

After you, Robin . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:25 PM

If you hadn't noticed, at least someof our recent comments were both from the same side of the choir stalls...


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 11:59 PM

from the Toronto Star:

"Let's concentrate for a second on the plight of Lebanon now that a fragile ceasefire has taken hold:

Thousands of civilian casualties. Nearly a quarter of the population forced from their homes. An offshore oil spill that may be worse than the Exxon Valdez. The demolition of roads, bridges, power stations, entire neighbourhoods. Hospitals without medicine. Villages lacking food. Isn't that the heart of this terrible story?

Maybe you disagree with me, and with most Quebecers. Maybe you insist that Israel's determination to conquer Hezbollah outweighs the enormous suffering inflicted on the people of Lebanon.

Fine. But if so, please don't call us anti-Semitic."


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:48 AM

Israel is refusing to let countries with which it does not have diplomatic relations participate in the multinational force to police the Lebanese border?

Source, please.

If this is true it's totally unacceptable.

I'd like to hear the view of some of the more rabid pro-Israel posters here on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:48 AM

That would be me.

I don't blame the Israelis. For example, would you want Iran to supply troops for the south of Lebanon, or Syria? Probably not. The countries that do not recognize Israel have for the most part said that they disagree with Israel's right to exist. Would you want those people stationing troops on YOUR border?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:47 AM

Israel does not want troops from Bangladesh or Malaysia. In other words, they don't want Muslims.

Once again, Israel is calling the shots.

Odd how Israel and the U.S. both seem to be unable to compromise. Odd how they think they get to decide. Its not their choice but, for the sake of peace, the whole world has to placate Israel and play according to their rules. Compromise seems to mean do it my way or else.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:20 AM

"My Way or Da Highway!"


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:57 AM

dianavan,

"Israel does not want troops from Bangladesh or Malaysia. In other words, they don't want Muslims."

Actually, they have no problems with ANY country that has recognized Israel's right to exist, as per the UN.

ANY country that DOES NOT recognize a country accredited to the UN is in violation of UN rules, and has no business being part of ANY UN force. They do NOT need to have diplomatic relations, but they MUWST recognize it's right to exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:01 PM

Source please.

I understand that the countries who do not have diplomatic ties with Israel are the countries Israel does not want in the U.N forces. This, however, is not their decision to make.

But where is the documentation stating that they do no recognize Israel's right to exist?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

Dianavan,

Try getting your news from any legit source other than antisemites-R-us.com.

Beardedbruce,

What's the point in bothering with that hatemonger?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM

Guest - You are a coward and hide behind war-mongers.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:27 PM

Israeli envoy to UN says that to expect nations like Malaysia and Indonesia - who do not recognize Israel's right to exist - to guard Israel's safety 'is a bit naïve'



The Israeli envoy to the UN, Danny Gillerman, said that it would be "difficult if not inconceivable" to accept nations who do not recognize Israel's right to exist and who have no diplomatic relations with Israel as part of a UN force in southern Lebanon .



Gillerman made the statement in an interview with BBC Online, after Malaysia and Indonesia – who do not recognize Israel - have both said they were willing to send troops to the region.



He said Israel would be "very happy" to accept troops from Muslim countries they have friendly relations with.




"But to expect countries who don't even recognize Israel to guard Israel's safety I think would be a bit naive," Gillerman said.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

GUEST 21 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

"What's the point in bothering with that hatemonger?"

Since you are an obvious hatemonger, why should anybody bother with you either?


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:24 PM

I don't object to any country trying to call the shots--it stands to reason that any state would support its own self-interest.

But I submit that this attitude--refusing Indonesian, Malaysian troops etc.--is NOT in Israel's best interest. There will be troops from states which definitely have recognized Israel. They can monitor Indonesians etc.

Beggars can't be choosers--and at this point Israel is a beggar.

What Israel should want is a HUGE and powerful multinational force keeping the peace. The more troops between Hezbollah and Israel, the better for Israel--especially since the outbreak of war again will kill some of these troops. Israel claims it will not start such a war--so if Hezbollah does, all the world's outrage will be directed at Hezbollah. A far cry from the current situation.

What Israel and any of its supporters should want is this multinational force--from any country--doing all the fighting for Israel

Unless of course Israel, by raising obstacles, is actually trying to sabotage the process of setting up the multinational force on the border. If so, this verges on suicide. Israel may think that if the war resumes it can "finish the job"--eradicate Hezbollah. But that will never happen--much more likely would be a wider war---hurtling toward World War III.

I think Israel is going to see this. But maybe not.

The only people who would welcome it would be the idiot US " religious" zealots who can't wait for Armageddon.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:40 PM

Many countries who have had experience with peace-keeping are waiting to see what the ROE are. I doubt Canada will be involved, with Harper having stated the country's support for Israel--thus making us unacceptable to Lebanon, but ANY country would be very foolish to put troops in without clearly defined rules. And the rules haven't been clearly defined at this time. Let's hope this isn't another 'fight about the shape of the table' thing such as happened with the Vietnam War peace process.

The World War III scenario has been and is my greatest fear to do with this particular war (as I said very early on in another thread). I agree with Ron in this instance. But notice that France, which has a history of getting involved with these types of 'actions' has yet to offer beyond 250 troops. Usually, countries that do not fight all that many wars (and France doesn't, other than some stuff in Africa with the Foreign Legion) are always looking for 'cheap' ways to train NCOs. So, maybe the cesae-fire needs to be delineated a bit more clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM

Does Lebanon get to request troops that do not have diplomatic relations with them? I agree with Ron, the more international troops under the authority of the U.N., the better. It is the best way to disarm Hezbollah. Why would they sabbotage this?

I still can't find where Malaysia and Indonesia have denied Israel's right to exist. Can you please provide a source?

btw - Harper may think that it was a "measured response" by Israel but thats not what the majority of Canadians think. Canada should be there to help re-build and provide medical assistance.


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