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BS: Amnestygate

GUEST,Old Guy 24 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM
Peace 24 Jul 06 - 01:11 AM
GUEST 24 Jul 06 - 01:34 AM
Wolfgang 24 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM
Rapparee 24 Jul 06 - 01:51 PM
dianavan 24 Jul 06 - 02:01 PM
Bill D 24 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM
dianavan 24 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM
Bobert 24 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM
Becca72 24 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM
GUEST, Ebbie 24 Jul 06 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 24 Jul 06 - 10:02 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jul 06 - 10:38 PM
dianavan 24 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jul 06 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 25 Jul 06 - 11:35 PM
Ron Davies 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 26 Jul 06 - 12:11 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 06 - 12:48 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 06 - 11:07 PM
Old Guy 18 Sep 06 - 12:24 AM
dianavan 18 Sep 06 - 12:39 AM
Old Guy 18 Sep 06 - 01:21 PM
dianavan 19 Sep 06 - 12:33 AM
Old Guy 19 Sep 06 - 01:35 AM
GUEST 19 Sep 06 - 02:07 AM
dianavan 19 Sep 06 - 03:05 AM
Bobert 19 Sep 06 - 07:48 PM
Old Guy 19 Sep 06 - 08:36 PM
GUEST 19 Sep 06 - 11:35 PM
dianavan 20 Sep 06 - 01:16 AM
Amos 20 Sep 06 - 02:00 PM
Bobert 20 Sep 06 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,number 6 20 Sep 06 - 04:51 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM
Bobert 20 Sep 06 - 09:11 PM
Old Guy 20 Sep 06 - 09:56 PM
Bobert 21 Sep 06 - 09:22 PM
Old Guy 21 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM
Bobert 21 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM
Old Guy 22 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM
Bobert 22 Sep 06 - 04:19 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 06 - 09:42 PM
Old Guy 22 Sep 06 - 10:15 PM
Ron Davies 23 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM
Ron Davies 23 Sep 06 - 07:16 AM
Ron Davies 23 Sep 06 - 07:27 AM
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Subject: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM

Now here is something that really disgusts me.

Republicans, GWB included, want to make illegal aliens citizens of the US. Why? because they work cheap.

Democrats want to make illegal aliens citizens too.
Why? so they will vote for them.

Which is the most disgusting?

I say make businesses follow the law and fine the hell out of them for hiring illegal aliens. Some say this will put businesses in a law enforcement role. Bull crap. Schools have to make sure teachers are qualified, Hospitals have to make sure Docs and nurses are qualified. Is that law enforcement?

If the illegals can't get a job, they have no reason to come here. They will have to emigrate legally to get work here. This will cause higher wages which will be a good thing, not a bad thing. So lettuce goes up a dollar. So it costs you more to get your yard mowed cause you are too lazy to do it your self. So what? People that make more, spend more and that boosts the economy.

And another thing is the stingy ass Republicans that regularly vote themselves fat pay raises and have a completely different retirement plan and medical insurance plan from the people they "represent" and rob of their future SS retirement and Medicare benefits, should raise the minimum wage.

They think it is a good thing that MacDonald's can hire people dirt cheap to flip burgers but how the hell do they support themselves? Government assistance and services that cost you and me more than the cheaper hamburgers.

On the east coast, in restaurants, convenience stores, parking garages and so forth you see a lot central Europeans working. Someone arranges for them to come to the US and work legally. I don't mind that. They speak English, have good manners and try to fit in. Sometimes I give them lessons on how to pronounce words American style and they smile and try to learn. I am glad that they have the opportunity. I hope they spread good will about America back home.

I do object when I see Latinos keeping apart and not trying to become Americans. America in a huge melting pot but they don't melt. The larger the Lation population gets, the less need thay have to blend in.

Make them learn and speak English if they want to live here.

In 1986, the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) was passed, creating for the first time penalties for employers who hired illegal immigrants. These penalties are very seldom enforced and forged documents are rampant leading to wide spread illegal immigrant employment. IRCA also contained an amnesty for about 3,000,000 illegal immigrants already in the United States, and mandated the intensification of some of the activities of the United States Border Patrol or INS. Because the immigration authorities do not detain any but a very small fraction of the approximate 1,000,000 illegals they catch but either sends them back or releases them on their own recognisance in the U.S. these border actions are very ineffective.

By one account, the actual number of annual legal immigrants was estimated at 500,000 to 600,000 in 1989. This subsequently increased and is now well over 1 million annually, not including illegal migration or temporary work visas.

The 1990 Immigration Act (IMMACT) -- Modified and expanded the 1965 act; it significantly increased the total immigration limit to 700,000 and increased visas by 40 percent. Family reunification was retained as the main immigration criteria with significant increases in employment-related immigration.

Several pieces of legislation signed into law in 1996 marked a turn towards harsher policies for both legal and illegal immigrants. The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (AEDPA) and Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA) vastly increased the categories of criminal activity for which immigrants, including green card holders, can be deported and imposed mandatory detention for certain types of deportation cases. As a result, well over 1,000,000 individuals have been deported since 1996.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:11 AM

"I do object when I see Latinos keeping apart and not trying to become Americans. America in a huge melting pot but they don't melt. The larger the Lation population gets, the less need thay have to blend in."

So, we're all invited to your house for supper?


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:34 AM

Yes but it ain't Tacos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM

It is fun to watch when right wing ideology and hate of different looking and acting people come into conflict with the daily needs of capitalism (cheap labour).
Who is going to win? Ideology or profit?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:51 PM

Workers of the World, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:01 PM

Profit is the name of the game, Wolfgang. That IS their ideology. Cheap labout (whether its slaves, sweat shops or illegal immigrants) is life blood of the American economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM

Trouble is, it is wrong to exploit cheap labor and discriminate against ethnic minorities AND it is wrong to cross borders illegally and put extra strain on local resources- (schools, health care, law enforcement,)


Anyone wanting to actually live in a country should learn the language, pay taxes, and abide by the laws in place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

I totally agree with that Bill.

I know that there are detention centers in the U.S.A where they hold illegal immigrants (mostly Mexican).

Maybe a middle ground would be to send those guys home and allow those that are already employed, to stay.

Then, they can start 'beefing up" the immigration procedures to allow those with a family member in the U.S. to enter, with sponsorship.

In the long run, both Canada and the U.S. should be providing those living along the Mexican border with aid to help them build a viable economy. If there were jobs in Mexico, illegal immigrants wouldn't be a problem.

Seems to me its a Continental disgrace that the North should have a much higher standard of living than the South. As far as I can see, there is no reason, other than exploitation of labour, that Mexican's are so poor.

I think this issue is just a 'red herring' to distract U.S. citizens by creating, yet another, division among them.

The solution is mostly bureaucratic. It wouldn't be that hard to solve if there was any intention of ever solving it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM

Hey, if the Republicans are so worried about illegal immagrants then let them pass legislation making it illegal to hire them... Hmmmmm? But they won't fo that because that would offend the employers who both hire them and make campaign contributions which have loopsidedly to the Republican Party fir the last 6 years...

Duhhhh!!!

Yeah, I don't hear Repubs cryin' about the health of the econoomy which is fueled by cheap and exploited loaborers but now the battle cry is the same ol' Republican song and dance routine: emotional issues that really don't mean much...

(But, Bobert, these folks are takin' away jobs that good Americans would have...)

Bull, they are doin' the crap that good ol' Americans can't afford to do for the wages that are being paid to do 'um...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM

Laws restricting immigration into the US are difficult to enforce, and they're difficult for Americans to support wholeheartedly. Most of our ancestors came here as immigrants, legally or illegally. In our heart of hearts, we know it isn't fair that it's legal for some people to immigrate here, and not for others.
It's difficult to defend the morality of immigration restrictions, because there's an aspect of racism hidden just below the surface of the history of our immigration laws.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Becca72
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM

Dianavan, I think a big problem with that is that the Mexican government is blatantly corrupt. I say blatantly because they're out and proud about it, unlike our own government...


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:48 PM

"I know that there are detention centers in the U.S.A where they hold illegal immigrants (mostly Mexican)." dianavan

I'm not aware of this. Would you please point me to a link? Thanks.

As has been said many times, until we as a nation are not so conflicted about the issue it will not get resolved. As has been said many times, if companies and individuals found themselves facing a jail term and/or a hefty fine for being caught hiring illegal immigrants the cure would be quickly found.

A friend of mine advocates that companies be forced to close each store when the company has been found guilty of illegal hiring - in fact, he goes further. He says that if Walmart, for instance, is found guilty of it the whole chain should face mandated closure for an agreed upon time.

We've had the laws on the books for a long time. We should either abide by them or void them.

All that said, I must admit that I'm in favor of immigration, illegal and not. I think the mix of cultures and races in the US has had an overwhelmingly beneficial effect. Further, I am not a Communist - mostly because I don't think it works - but manmade borders and other constructs to my mind are artificial divisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:02 PM

"Let's just stay right here 'til we outnumber 'em !!!"

Woody Guthrie


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:38 PM

Joe, I agree with your comments. Until about 1920, immigrants were admitted as long as they could pay the fare and had no pestilent diseases (which included being black or oriental).

Many of the immigrants whose descendants are whooping about illegals (a la simple Simon Lou Dobbs of the boggled mind) taking jobs away from legals faced the same problems- they took the 'jobs we don't want," but worked their way up (or their children did), and faced discrimination of the same kind. This flood of people eventually became good citizens (and it took more than one generation for many to learn the language).

Spanish, I remind the insular people from the east, was the language of the southwest for many generations, along with several indigenous languages. Many of us don't belong to or care about the traditions of the 'pilgrims' and the New England settlers of old; traditions in the southwest were Spanish, introduced by settlers beginning in 1598, and are still kept by many citizens. As a schoolboy I worked briefly as a page in the New Mexico Legislature where legislators of Spanish ancestry often spoke in Spanish; a tradition now sadly lost as Anglos and English became dominant after WW2.
My feelings are of welcome for our Latino cousins looking for a better life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM

Ebbie - I only know about it because my mom lives next to one of those facilities.

From Wiki - " ICE operates detention centers throughout the United States that detain illegal immigrants who are apprehended and placed into removal proceedings. Kellog, Brown and Root (KBR), the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton Corporation, released a press statement on January 24, 2006 that the company had been awarded a no-bid contingency contract from the Department of Homeland Security to support its Immigration and Customs Enforcement facilities in the event of an emergency. The maximum total value of the contract is $385 million and consists of a 1-year base period with four 1-year options."


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:49 PM

Click here for an article on Immigration Detention Centers. Ten years ago, for three weeks in the summer of 1996, I worked at the Immigration Detention Center in El Centro, California. My job was to update the security clearances of employees. At the time, Immigration Detention Centers were staffed primarily by government employees, and I tend to think that was a better situation. many of the INS facilities have been privatized - and my job with the Office of Personnel Management was privatized while I was in El Centro, which is why I retired three years later, at the age of 51. I couldn't stand it, and I felt I couldn't do a conscientious job.
Ten years ago, most people in Immigration Detention Centers had been caught for some sort of violation and were awaiting hearings or processing. Most illegal aliens were just shipped immediately to Mexico, and there was no need for them to be in detention centers.
Although I think our immigration policy is inhumane in many ways, I didn't see anything about the detention center that seemed particularly inhumane, but it certainly wasn't a "country club" atmosphere.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:35 PM

Yes, immigrants are needed to do menial jobs but they should be legal. They should be paid a decent wage and the minimum wage should be raised to at least $10 per hour.

There is no benefit in anything illegal. Enforce the law or change the law but enforce the law until it is changed.

As it stands now the Mexican economy depends on the money these workers send back home. If you go to Walmart to send a moneygram, it is astually cheaper to send money to Mexico that to another Walmart in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 PM

How do you propose to convince illegal immigrants to come out of the shadows without a path to citizenship? Would you? I wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:11 AM

Deny them jobs. Crack down on the employers. Let them go back to Mexico and persue legal immigration.

If there is a shortage of workers, speed up legal immigration and increase quotas.

Instead of passing a law that rewards them for breaking the law, Pass one that rewards them for following the law.

You don't realize that the present situation creates an Almost slave state for illegal imigrants. The employers can screw them over all they want with out fear of violating regulations. What happens to their civil rights? They don't have any if they are illegal.

Amnesty for the ones already here will not stem the flow of illegals. It will increase it because the new illegals will think they have a chance at amnesty too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:48 AM

"pass legislation making it illegal to hire them"

Duhhh It is illegal to hire them. It was illegal under the Clintoon administration too but hell, he couldn't afford to piss off latinos any more that Bush or Carter. Can't get elected that way.

You get a piss poor view of US and world events reading WAPO


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

Most of the bigots who post on Mudcat do it as guests.

Our 'visible" immigrant groups went through a "slave" and ghetto period, working in sweatshops, as domestics and in the sewers- Jews, Italians, Slavs and all the other 'huddled poor'. Now their descendants condemn the Latinos and West Indians who labor for us.

And there is no way that the 10-20 million immigrants without proper papers can be removed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM

So Q wants to reward lawbreakers and benefit big business that hires them. It is too much trouble to enforce the law.

If you listen to the legal immigrants, they are infuriated by the illegals. I guess they are biggoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:07 PM

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/tsowell/2006/ts_07261.shtml

More Amnesty Fraud
By Thomas Sowell
July 26, 2006

Just when it looked like the Senate Republicans had finally gotten the message that the American people in general, and their own supporters in particular, are outraged over amnesty for illegal aliens, some Republican Senators have come up with yet another disguise for amnesty -- and gotten bipartisan support, including Ted Kennedy and John McCain.

Under this new plan, its advocates claim, illegal immigrants would "have to leave the country" and re-apply to come back in legally and get on a path toward citizenship. It sounds good but on closer examination it turns out to be a fraud.

How long would the illegal immigrants have to leave the country? According to the Senate bill they "may exit the United States and immediately re-enter." In other words, do a U-turn and come right back. How is that for "tough" border control?

Nobody else gets into the United States that easily. You can say "tough" all you want and still be a wimp. Or a politician........


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:24 AM

Immigration bill a threat to economy

By Phil Kent the Journal-Constitution 08/20/06

It is quite a legislative recipe when a few Senate Republicans craft policies favoring their business cronies and contributors addicted to cheap illegal labor. Then sprinkled in from liberal Democrats is language promoting an open borders and "multicultural diversity" agenda.

The result? U.S. Senate Bill 2611, which creates a huge new guest worker/amnesty program that, in the estimate of the Heritage Foundation, imports 66 million aliens into our country over a 20-year period and puts them on the path to citizenship.
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The bill is so expensive and harmful to our nation's economy and culture that one U.S. senator tells me the Senate GOP leadership is now too embarrassed to bring it before a conference committee to compromise with House —- passed legislation.

The Senate legislation grants amnesty ("earned citizenship") to 12 million to 20 million people who have already sneaked across our borders —- and who will then receive all sorts of taxpayer-supported services. They are also allowed to bring in their families under an insane chain-migration policy. The 66 million estimate previously cited might even be low.

Such a massive influx of unassimilated foreigners and their families means we will import poverty. The National Research Council reports that an immigrant to the United States without a high school diploma consumes $89,000 more in government services than he pays during his lifetime. The Center for Immigration Studies finds more than half of the illegals here are high school dropouts and have a 42 percent rate of out-of-wedlock births (and the babies get automatic U.S. citizenship).

Any guest worker or amnesty program is liable to depress wages of the American laborer on a larger scale than has already been seen. The Washington Times reported more than 30,000 illegal aliens descended upon Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi after Hurricane Katrina. Naturally, contractors needed workers to clean up and rebuild. But the contractors were greedy and hired illegals.

Illegal aliens are wage thieves. They steal jobs from unemployed Americans —- especially low-income whites, blacks and teenagers.

One of the most outrageous features of Senate Bill 2611 —- aside from rewarding lawbreakers with services like college tuition breaks and eventual citizenship —- is requiring employers to pay foreign workers higher wages at construction jobs. The Davis-Bacon Act requires the local prevailing wage be paid to all workers in federally contracted construction projects.

Those wages, up to four or five times higher in some construction fields than the federal minimum wage of $5.15 per hour, are set by the Labor Department. Senate Bill 2611 requires the higher wage be paid to temporary foreign workers in all construction occupations, even if the project isn't federally funded.

This bill would supposedly protect American workers by ensuring that new immigrants would not take away jobs. However, the bill's definition of "United States worker" includes the "temporary" foreign guest workers, so the protection is meaningless.

Senate Bill 2611 also creates an unnecessary F-4 visa category. It's essentially an automatic green card for any foreign student who earns a graduate degree in engineering or the physical sciences at a U.S. university. But as professor Norm Matloff at the University of California-Davis researched, there is absolutely no shortage of American master's and Ph.D. engineers. Again, foreigners will be poised to take jobs from Americans.

Progress toward achieving sustainable yearly immigration levels can come by rejecting Senate Bill 2611, and by passing the "border enforcement only" House Bill 4437 —- which includes that badly needed fencing for portions of the Mexican border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:39 AM

Yes, but think of all those votes for good ol' George.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:21 PM

I am totally against GWB on this one.

I am independant and I am voting based on whether the candidate is for or against amnesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:33 AM

Your vote against 12-20 million?

Don't forget, this is a democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:35 AM

Please define the question a little and I will gladly answer.

What does "Your vote against 12-20 million" mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 02:07 AM

America's being flooded with other-culture people just like the countries of Europe have been. It's part of the great breakdown of societies. When the western nations have been reduced to multi-linguistic chaos, they'll fall like ripe plums.

In America, you have to take your citizenship test in English. That means you need to know English. Why, then, are ballots printed in anything other than English?


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:05 AM

Multi-linguistic chaos and other-culture people?

Oh fear, oh fear.

As if the English speaking mono-culture never creates anything but peace and harmony.

Now thats what I call ignorant!


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:48 PM

Hmmmmmm, Oldster, I see that you are quotin' the Heritage Council... Who started it???


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:36 PM

Bobert: I am not quoting anybody. That is my opinion. Bush is wrong on amnesty. The law should be enforced.

I never heard of the Heritage Counsel.

I still don't know what "Your vote against 12-20 million" means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:35 PM

Hey, I don't fear the coming multi-linguistic chaos. Fear grows out of the unknown, and I know exactly what's been foisted on America and the other great western nations. The global banking elite is always consolidating its power, and now, to go to the next level of consolidation, the western nations will be sacrificed. The bankers will survive and just take over the management of the new Latino/Asian slave class. So be it. The Latino/Asians will be much easier to control because they have no history of freedom. America's going to have to be torched, though. Too much freedom for too long. Buy guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:16 AM

"Your vote against 12-20 million" means you're out-numbered by the very people you wish to keep out.

Bush doesn't care if you vote for him. If he can give citizenship to that many illegal immigrants, who do you think they will vote for? Its a democracy isn't it? Bush is looking for votes and you don't count one way or another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:00 PM

Thank God, he can't use any more votes, real or imaginary. As for AmnestyGate, the notion of backfilling the definitions of crimes in order to protect Bush from having broken the laws in his heroic pursuits of warmongering is far more scandalous then the idea of amnestying people whose only crime was trying to get into a better life for themselves and families.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:47 PM

Excuse me, Oldster, make that the Heritage "Foundation"... Now back to the question of who started it???

As fir the "12-20 million" thing... Taht's 'tween you and dianvan...

B


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:51 PM

"Thank God,"

Please don't ... been listening to much 'God' from 3 blithering fools at the UN in the last 2 days.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=72&ItemID=10957

A story about 73k Americans living in a concentration camp right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:11 PM

Yeah, don't go out an' provide the evidence that Bush and his cronies stole the 2000 election and expect to get away clean.... This ain't 'bout Katrina as much as it is about revenge... The Bush folks will have their revenge... You can take that to the bank...

And fir you Bush-heads... Don't even begin to ar4gue that Bush won 2000 'cause it's like givin' a transfusion to a dead man... He lost it big time!!! If it weren't for spending 5 times tghe money on lawyers and havin' a Repub Supreme Court Bush would be cuttin' brush 365 days a year in Crawford... This ain't even close to bein' arguable...

Oh, but the usual goose-steppin' knee-jerkers will come to Bush's defense like they always do...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:56 PM

Paranoid, lawbreaker supporting Bobert:

I still never heard of them any heritage foundation.

Dianavan:

Yes. One person is definately out numbered by 12 to 20 million people.

Now what has that got to do with amnesty for lawbreakers?

I don't see your point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:22 PM

You never heard of the Heritage Foundation, Old Guy???

I seriously doubt that....

It only happens to be the #1 rightie think tank and everything that comes from you has been put out by it... What, are you so brainwashed that you no longer know who is doing it???

Maybe a Google might jar yer danged "old guy" memory???

BTW, it was founded by former Nazi'z and Nazi sympathizers after WW II who were seriously courted by your Republican Party....

Yeah, check 'um out... All your arguments have come right (pun intended) outta the Heritage Foundation....

Don't think so??? Google 'um up a little harder....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM

Bobert:

Your assertion is false. I never heard of them.

Why are you always on the side of the lawbreakers?

Are you hiring illegal aliens?

You must think I am a busy retired old guy working for the Bush admnistration, Walmart and the hertiage whatever.

Did you ever stop to think that when somebody does not agree with you it is because that is the way they feel?

Nope, It is always a plot by some evil organization.

It sounds like paranoia to me.

Time for a reality check.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM

No, Old Guy, I didn't since you seem to agree with Bush 99% of the time... That is what "true believers" do... Heck, I don't agree with anyone even 50% of the time... That is what free thinkers do...

And for the record, about 99% of your opionions and positions are the exact opinions and positions of the Heritage Foundation... Hmmmmm???

You may think that you have sifted thru the vast amount of information to come to your conclusions but the more you talk the more apparent it is that you are so hung up in partisan politics that you are not capable of independent thought processes...

Yeah, yer right about one thing... Time for a reality check...

But, hey, I still likes ya' even if you are a brainwashed brownshirt so come on over here an' get a big hug...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM

Bobert:

Ya gotta have a brain to be brain washed.

And I don't have a single brown shirt regardless of your tired liberal clinches and rhetoric.

Libs always have to assign everybody to one of their stereotypes, there is no such thing as a free thinker.

That is why they can't think freely themselves.

Oops, I just stereotyped somebody.

Well I agree with Bush on somethings and not on others just like my wife, brothers etc. It is based on what I believe and not an ideology.

I even agreed with Clinton on some things. I might even agree with you on some things but it looks like your mind is closed to any evidence that might make you change your mind. Is that called closed mindedness?

Now you take these wetb.. err, illegal aliens. They are here illegally. You rant and rave when you think Bush broke the law but you want to bend the law for people that came here illegally. I don't blame them for coming. I am for them coming legally. I think they do the dirty jobs that Americans are to "good" to do and pay taxes, SS etc if they were paid a decent wage legally and more or less pay their way. Right now they are a drain on the state and local communities. A hidden tax that subsidizes the lower prices.

But the present system is keeping them in a sort of slave state where they get treated like shit, under paid and they have no rights, pay no taxes and can't complain because they are illegal. That is because the Republicans want them here for cheap labor. It is also due to Democrats that want them here so they will vote Democratic someday. I think you will agree that it is crystal clear.

Now the big problem with amnesty is that it gives them the idea that laws are not to be followed in the US. That they are a minority can get more benefits than Americans. They will not mix into the great American melting pot that made this country great. They will stay apart and be divided, not united with mainstream America. There will be gangs against other ethnic groups Ala West side story.

It will be difficult in the short run to make these people tow the line and re inter legally. Quotas will need to be increased, processes speeded up and more INS personnel hired. I don't call that Gestapo tactics. I call that following the law.

To give them amnesty will be easy in the short run but what are the long term consequences?

We have already gone through the amnesty thing and it did not cure the problem. This amnesty will not cure the problem either. And we are going to spend 8 billion an a fence? Why not spend some bucks policing the businesses that hire them?

I say crack down on businesses that hire illegal aliens. Make them follow the law. You are always bitching about the "Crooks" and they are crooks. If one lettuce grower hires illegals, the others have to do it to compete. If none of them can hire illegals they will all be in the same boat. That is fair. All businesses held to the same law.

Also if the minimum wage was set at $10 it would be an incentive for them to enter legally to get that $10. It's probably 2 or 3 times what they are making now. It will be trickle up economics at work when the local economies improve.

Now tell me what mold I was cast in? Tell me what organization I am loyal to? Tell me what doctrine I follow?


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:19 PM

Actually, Old Guy, I haven't stated my opinion on the immigrant issue other than to point out that alot of folks who are so Hell bent on makin' it an issue right here at election time are the same people who have been benefactors of cheap labor... That's all I've said yet you want to put me into some kinda "liberal" trick bag and ***assume*** that I think this way or that way on the issue...

The minimum wage issue stands on it's own and should not bea factor in the immigration debate... Bottom line, the minimum wage of today has lost 42% or it's purchasuing power since 1969 and that is just downright inexcusable no matter how you look at it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:42 PM

Eisenhower had the right idea. Operation Wetback. Round em up, kick em out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:15 PM

Mr Objective rather than subjective thinking Bobert:

Where did I state that you had stated your opinion?

Where Did I say the minimum wage was needed only because of Illegal immigrants? I have stated in several threads it should be at least $10

The only thing I am saying about you is you use rhetoric and tired Liberal clichés like brownshirt instead of facts. You think it makes you seem much cooler to talk in symbolic phrases like "roll him under tha buss" than to speak plainly. It is facetious as opposed to being honest.

What the hell does brownshirt mean anyway? Is it something from your glory days back in the 40s?

And I still never heard of the Hertiage Foundation so you can repeat that all you like if it makes you feel better about your conflicted positions on things like crooks that hire Illegals are OK. But other crooks are the problem.

You never explained who or what Boss Hogg is. Another example of your self serving rhetoric. Was he the fat guy on the Dukes of Hazard that had so much influence in his town? I think you were bragging about your own sphere of influence in your town.


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM

OK Old-

What's your view of building a fence between the US and Mexico--I believe the length is projected to be 700 miles. Is this a good idea? Yes or no? And why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:16 AM

Also, given the fact that there are about 12 million illegal immigrants now working in the US, how many additional INS personnel do you think will need to be hired to remove them? And do you claim to be against Big Government?


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Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:27 AM

And let me compliment you on the (singularly imaginative?) title of this thread. It fits your reputation for deep thinking.


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