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BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!

Sorcha 14 Jul 06 - 07:56 PM
wysiwyg 14 Jul 06 - 08:39 PM
wysiwyg 14 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM
Troll 14 Jul 06 - 08:54 PM
Charley Noble 14 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM
Bobert 14 Jul 06 - 09:08 PM
wysiwyg 14 Jul 06 - 09:45 PM
John O'L 14 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM
artbrooks 15 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 08:45 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 08:49 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM
artbrooks 15 Jul 06 - 09:10 AM
wysiwyg 15 Jul 06 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,08:49 AM 15 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM
Sorcha 15 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM
Amos 15 Jul 06 - 12:40 PM
Arne 15 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM
Barry Finn 15 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM
artbrooks 15 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM
CarolC 15 Jul 06 - 06:03 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM
Troll 15 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 03:11 AM
Barry Finn 16 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM
Troll 16 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM
JohnInKansas 16 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 10:32 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 11:33 PM
dianavan 17 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM
Troll 17 Jul 06 - 04:40 PM
Troll 17 Jul 06 - 04:51 PM
GUEST 17 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM
dianavan 17 Jul 06 - 05:36 PM
Troll 17 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM
dianavan 17 Jul 06 - 07:23 PM
Troll 18 Jul 06 - 12:19 AM
dianavan 18 Jul 06 - 01:22 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 06 - 01:29 AM
DougR 18 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Woody 20 Aug 06 - 11:56 PM
Wolfgang 10 Oct 06 - 02:18 PM
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Subject: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:56 PM

Look for it...go girl!!!! Sic em!


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:39 PM

Is THAT the blonde whistleblower
I saw on the teevee news while we were in an RV-place waiting room with no sound???????

GOOD GIRL!!!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM

At the bottom of the story at the link I gave above, there is an additional link to a .PDF of the suit itself. Here's the story, though.

~S~

Ex-CIA agent: Cheney, Rove 'betrayed' trust
Plame and husband explain lawsuit against vice president and Bush aide

• Plame sues Cheney, Rove in leak case
Updated: 1:03 p.m. ET July 14, 2006

WASHINGTON - Former CIA officer Valerie Plame and her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, said Friday they decided to sue Vice President Dick Cheney and presidential adviser Karl Rove because they engaged in a "whispering campaign" to destroy her career.

Followed in and out of the National Press Club like Hollywood celebrities - by a swarm of cameras and reporters - Plame said, "Joe and I have filed action with heavy hearts," adding, "I and my former colleagues trusted the government to protect us in our jobs" and said it "betrayed that trust. I'd much rather be continuing my career as a public servant than as a plaintiff in a lawsuit."

Said Wilson: "We are under no illusions about how tough this fight will be. But we believe the time has come to hold those who use their official positions to exact personal revenge accountable and responsible for their actions."

In the suit filed Thursday in U.S. District Court, Plame and her husband said that Cheney, Rove and Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, leaked her CIA status to reporters to punish Wilson for criticizing the Bush administration's motives in Iraq.

Plame's identity as a CIA officer was revealed in a July 14, 2003, article by syndicated columnist Robert Novak. At the time, Plame's job as an operations officer was classified information. Novak's column appeared eight days after Wilson alleged in an opinion piece in The New York Times that the Bush administration had twisted prewar intelligence on Iraq to justify going to war.

The lawsuit accuses Cheney, Libby, Rove and 10 unnamed administration officials or political operatives of putting the Wilsons and their children's lives at risk by exposing Plame, who left the CIA in January and is writing a book about what's happened to her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:54 PM

Was it her employment that was classified or her specific job or both?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM

I'll certainly be following this story closely.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:08 PM

Both...

She was a CIA operative and therefore, irregardless of the job, she whoudl have been protected...

The way it looks is that even though this trial will probably go many years with the administartion sandbaggin' and callin' in political markers from the folks they have appointed, the rerason for filin' now was statutes of limitation which were about to run out...

Good on her... Bush/Rove done her wrong and we don't even have a clue as to how many other operatives and cooperatives were compromised is their little ball game but, hey, Lee Atwater would have been ashamedly proud of this little dirty trick...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:45 PM

It's not just the leak anymore. It's defamation.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM

Whether or not she wins, no matter how long it takes, and no matter how the spin doctors work it, some truth must be revealed, even to those who would not otherwise allow themselves to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM

It wasn't so much that she worked for Spook Central at Langley, but that her particular job required her to be involved in clandestine operations (i.e., spying) when on an overseas rotation. Once she was outed, her career in that particular branch of the agency was totally dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:45 AM

Money Money Money

Are you going to buy their book?

NEW YORK May 5, 2006 (AP)— Valerie Plame, the former CIA operative whose unmasking led to a federal investigation and the indictment of a top vice presidential aide, has agreed to a book deal with the Crown Publishing Group.

Financial terms were not disclosed, but two sources close to the negotiations said the deal was in the low seven figures. Several publishers had competed for the memoir, scheduled to come out in the fall of 2007 and tentatively titled "Fair Game."


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:49 AM

Actually, I doubt the suit will get far. A party needs permission from the US government to sue the US government & it's representatives.

These types of suits usually get thrown out early in the game as a result of the government not granting jurisdiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM

July 14, 2003. All Novak reports is that the wife of former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson is "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction."

Novak has said repeatedly that he was not told, and that he did not know, that Plame was — or had ever been — a NOC, an agent with Non-Official Cover. He has emphatically said that had he understood that she was any sort of secret agent, he would never have named her.

As for Novak's use of the word "operative," he might as easily have called her an "official," an "analyst, or an "employee." But, as a longtime newsman, he instinctively chose the sexiest term (one he routinely applies to political figures, too, i.e. "a party operative").

Reread Novak's article, and you'll also see that Novak in no way denigrates Wilson. On the contrary, he talks of Wilson's "heroism" in Iraq in 1991. And nowhere in his column does he say — or even imply — that Wilson was unqualified to conduct the Niger investigation or that Plame was responsible for getting him the assignment — merely that she "suggested sending him."

Even so, it is unclear whether Novak's sources may have committed a crime by talking to Novak about Plame. That would depend on a number of variables involving what they knew about Plame and how they came to know it. A prosecutor would have the power to compel Novak to testify regarding what was said to him and by whom.

Is this splitting hairs? Not at all. In Washington, plenty of people are acquainted with CIA operatives who are not working undercover. For example, when a CIA analyst wrote a book under the pseudonym "Anonymous," it was widely known that Anonymous was the Agency's Michael Scheuer. Before long, someone revealed that in print. No crime was committed or alleged — no classified information had been disclosed, no NOC had been exposed.

So if Novak did not reveal that Valerie Plame was a secret agent, who did? The evidence strongly suggests it was none other than Joe Wilson himself. Let me walk you through the steps that lead to this conclusion.

The first reference to Plame being a secret agent appears in The Nation, in an article by David Corn published July 16, 2003, just two days after Novak's column appeared. It carried this lead: "Did Bush officials blow the cover of a U.S. intelligence officer working covertly in a field of vital importance to national security — and break the law — in order to strike at a Bush administration critic and intimidate others?"

Since Novak did not report that Plame was "working covertly" how did Corn know that's what she had been doing?

Corn does not tell his readers and he has responded to a query from me only by pointing out that he was asking a question, not making a "statement of fact." But in the article, he asserts that Novak "outed" Plame "as an undercover CIA officer." Again, Novak did not do that. Rather, it is Corn who is, apparently for the first time, "outing" Plame's "undercover" status.

Corn follows that assertion with a quote from Wilson saying, "I will not answer questions about my wife." Any reporter worth his salt would immediately wonder: Did Wilson indeed answer Corn's questions about his wife — after Corn agreed not to quote his answers but to use them only on background? Read the rest of Corn's piece and it's difficult to believe anything else. Corn names no other sources for the information he provides — and he provides much more information than Novak revealed.

Corn also claims that Wilson "will not confirm nor deny that his wife …works for the CIA." Corn adds: "But let's assume she does. That would seem to mean that the Bush administration has screwed one of its own top-secret operatives in order to punish Wilson …"

On what basis could Corn "assume" that Plame was not only working covertly but was actually a "top-secret" operative? And where did Corn get the idea that Plame had been "outed" in order to punish Wilson? That is not suggested by anything in the Novak column which, as I noted, is sympathetic to Wilson and Plame.

The likely answer: The allegation that someone in the administration leaked to Novak as a way to punish Wilson was made by Wilson — to Corn. But Corn, rather than quote Wilson, puts the idea forward as his own.

Keep in mind that from early on there were two possible but contradictory scenarios:

1) Members of the Bush administration intentionally exposed a covert CIA agent as a way to take revenge against her husband who had written a critical op-ed.

2) Members of the Bush administration were attempting to set the record straight by telling reporters that it was not Vice President Cheney who sent Wilson on the Africa assignment as Wilson claimed; rather Wilson's wife, a CIA employee, helped get him the assignment. (And that is indeed the conclusion of the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee.)

Corn's article then goes on to provide specific details about Plame's undercover work, her "dicey and difficult mission of tracking parties trying to buy or sell weapons of mass destruction or WMD material." But how does Corn know about that? From what source could he have learned it?

Corn concludes that Plame's career "has been destroyed by the Bush administration." And here he does, finally, quote Wilson directly. Wilson says: "Naming her this way would have compromised every operation, every relationship, every network with which she had been associated in her entire career. This is the stuff of Kim Philby and Aldrich Ames."

Corn has assured us several times that Wilson refused to answer questions about his wife, refused to confirm or deny that she worked for the CIA, refused to "acknowledge whether she is a deep-cover CIA employee." But he is willing to say on the record that "naming her this way" was an act of treachery? That's not talking about his wife? That's not providing confirmation? There is only one way to interpret this: Wilson did indeed talk about his wife, her work as a secret agent, and other matters to Corn (and perhaps others?) on a confidential basis.

If Wilson did tell Corn that his wife was an undercover agent, did he commit a crime? I don't claim to know. But the charge that someone committed a crime by naming Plame as a covert agent was also made by Corn, apparently for the first time, in this same article. No doubt, the independent prosecutor and the grand jury will sort it out.

Criminality aside, if Wilson revealed to Corn that Plame worked as a CIA "deep-cover" operative "tracking parties trying to buy or sell" WMDs, surely that's news.

And it is consequential: On the basis of Novak's story alone, it is highly unlikely that anyone would have had a clue that Plame — presumably under a different name and while living in a foreign country — had been a NOC. At most, her friends in Washington would have been surprised to learn that she didn't work where she said she worked.

But once Corn published the fact that Plame had been a "top-secret operative," and once he quoted Wilson saying what exposing his wife would mean — and once Plame posed for Vanity Fair photographers — anyone who had ever known her in a different context and with a different identity would have been tipped off.

But they would not have been tipped by Novak — nor, based on what we know so far, by Karl Rove. Rather, it appears they would have been tipped off by Joe Wilson who, the publicly available evidence strongly suggests, leaked like a sieve to The Nation's David Corn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM

The media covere it ass by claiming Plame had already been outed:

THE MEDIA TELLS THE COURT: PLAME'S COVER WAS BLOWN IN THE MID-1990s
As the media alleged to the judges (in Footnote 7, page 8, of their brief), Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a spy in Moscow. Of course, the press and its attorneys were smart enough not to argue that such a disclosure would trigger the defense prescribed in Section 422 because it was evidently made by a foreign-intelligence operative, not by a U.S. agency as the statute literally requires.

THE CIA OUTS PLAME TO FIDEL CASTRO
Of greater moment to the criminal investigation is the second disclosure urged by the media organizations on the court. They don't place a precise date on this one, but inform the judges that it was "more recent" than the Russian outing but "prior to Novak's publication."

The press informs the judges that the CIA itself "inadvertently" compromised Plame by not taking appropriate measures to safeguard classified documents that the Agency routed to the Swiss embassy in Havana.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:10 AM

GUEST, why not just use a Blue Clicky?


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:24 AM

The reason the defamation stuff is pertinent is because the gummint will be claiming that she had already been outed and/or that at the time of the leak she was no longer under cover.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST,08:49 AM
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM

It will be interesting to see if the court will allow the suit to proceed, as they did in the case of Paula Jones v. President Clinton.

That is the sort of lawsuit this is: one filed against government officials. Usually, they have immunity from lawsuits like this if the court finds the complaint to be political as opposed to constitutional.

The Paula Jones lawsuit was allowed to proceed because it was related to employment discrimination. Discrimination suits are allowed against the government. I believe this suit is about political retaliation, so Plame may not have much of a case, especially because her husband is also a plaintiff. It likely would have been a much stronger suit had she filed on her own.

Unless she is able to prove there is a direct link between the actions of the defendants that resulted in employment discrimination against her, I doubt the court will let this case proceed. That is, legally, probably better, because this suit is all about politics. The Wilsons, IMO, are using the suit to extract political payback--it is a tit for tat thing. That can really harm future administrations' abilities to take controversial actions, and even more importantly, it can water down the enforcement effect of suits like this against really bad employment discrimination against little guys like the rest of us.

I've never felt sorry for the Plame/Wilson publicity machine. I HATE the CIA & it's very existence (unconstitutional and very undemocratic IMO), and I'm REALLY not a fan of the law that says you can't expose an agent's identity. Dubya's Daddy (former head of the CIA, in addition to former prez) is a BIG FAN of the law, don't forget. Until it can be used against the political enemies of the Republicans, of course.

The Republicrats have conveniently forgotten this draconian law was passed in the wake of the reactionary Reagan era, to silence critics administration policies. So the irony that this administration is using this tactic to smear it's critics isn't lost on me.

But for those of you who don't know or remember, this bill was a piece of work by the William Casey CIA, Dubya's Daddy (who in addition to being a former prez, is also a former head of the CIA), and other avowed enemies of Philip Agee's.

It is hard to measure the importance of the publication of his book "Inside the Company" to the world's knowledge of the secret operations of the CIA in destabilizing the Third World's attempts to democratize and overthrow incredibly repressive authoritarian regimes that made the Soviet Union look like Girl Scouts. Had he and some other brave souls never dared to expose the identity of agents, the world would not have a record of all the really, really horrible things the CIA did then and continues to do now, with no constitutional mandate whatsoever.

How soon the desire for wreaking political vengeance helps us forget these things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM

In a way I don't care if it's tossed out....it's the Principle of the thing that she is brave enough to try and make it PUBLIC


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:40 PM

WASHINGTON - Valerie Plame Friday called Vice President Cheney and alleged leakers who blew her cover as a CIA spy "reckless" and "shameful."

Plame is suing Cheney, his ex-chief of staff Lewis (Scooter) Libby and President Bush's political guru Karl Rove for allegedly outing her in 2003 in a bid to discredit her husband, an Iraq war critic.

"I am proud to have served my country by working at the Central Intelligence Agency," Plame told reporters in her first public remarks since retiring from the clandestine service this year.

"I and my former CIA colleagues trusted our government to protect us," said Plame. "That a few reckless individuals within the current administration betrayed that trust has been a grave disappointment to every patriotic American."

Unnamed defendants in the lawsuit include "John Does" in the alleged conspiracy whom the Wilsons hope to uncover as the case progresses. Their lawyer, Christopher Wolf, would not say whether they suspect President Bush.

Spokesmen for Cheney and Libby have declined comment. Rove's spokesman has said the case is "without merit."

"Those who acted so harmfully against our national security must answer for their shameful conduct in court," said Plame, flanked by her husband and co-plaintiff, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

Guest:

Actually, I doubt the suit will get far. A party needs permission from the US government to sue the US government & it's representatives.

The lawsuit makes clear they're being sued in their capacity as individuals.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

Correction, in a civil lawsuit the plaintiffs do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, more like, that it's reasonably true.

"Unless she is able to prove there is a direct link between the actions of the defendants that resulted in employment discrimination against her, I doubt the court will let this case proceed."

I don't believe this is the standard in a civil action. (I may be wrong, please correct me if I'm off)

Though I doubt if this suit will get far enough to succeed, I'm hoping that it cast more light on who exposed her, that's a criminal offence. I don't care for the CIA either but it bothers me greatly that this administration would use their own (a CIA Operative & an Ambassador ) people to make a political play & hang them out to die. I see that this action shows what they'd do to those that are not their own, like you & I.

This move on their part against the administration, wither successful or not is also an embarrassing black eye that will have to worn & seen for a long time to come, which should be, as an example to all that this kind of media use & public display of pay back is not to be tolerated. It also discredits any disgruntled employee excuse which has been consistent in the past, it also blows the idea of canning the whistle blowers act & it again shows that no matter the position that one holds within the government one needs to fear speaking the truth. This is the way it's been & I'm glad it's now coming into the light.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM

The CIA is involved in all kinds of illegal, immoral, and just plain reprehensible acts all around the globe, and I'm quite sure, even within the US. So I believe the law that Cheney, Rove, et al violated is wrong, and should be overturned as a violation of free speech (which is what it is, and why the waters were so murky when Fitzgerald started putting journalists in jail to find the leaker).

Because of this law, we can't find out what the CIA is doing in our names. It is that simple. And NO ONE should think that the CIA is doing the right thing, because there is no evidence of it in the history of the organization, even during William Casey's infamous years infilitrating the Nazi regime.

The CIA should be shut down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM

From a historical perspective, it should be pointed out that the CIA did not exist "during the Nazi regime," and Mr. Casey's tenure as Director began about 25 years after World War II ended. Contrary to popular opinion, the CIA is/was not the direct successor of the OSS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

The CIA is who brought us Iran-Contra, the overthrow of Allende, etc etc etc.

Casey, who was Reagan's Karl Rove, was the chief architect and engineer of the unprecedented build-up at the CIA in the wake of dramatic budget cuts and scaling back of operations during the Carter administration.

Not to mention, he was the architect of that great policy (along w/ Jean "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" Kirkpatrick) that funded the Afghan mujahadeen, which became the notorious Taliban with whom we are now at war.

In the covert operations game, what goes around comes around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

And did I mention who the major funder of the mujahadeen that became the Taliban was?

A wonderful fellow by the name of Osama bin Laden.

And to think all of today's Islamic fundamentalists who were once "our bastards" (as Jeanne Kirkpatrick was so fond of saying) are now "terrorists".

Doubt it? Ask Dan Rather. He was good buds with the Afghan mujahadeen.

And y'all thought the only story he was on the wrong side of was Dubya's military service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:03 PM

It's one thing for citizens to uncover and bring to light covert activities of the CIA that are illegal, immoral, criminal, and just plain wrong.

It's quite another thing for the "leaders" of the country to expose people who work for them and their families to increased risk of harm (and possibly death) in retaliation for legitimate whistle blowing.

I approve of the former, but I think the latter is just despicable, and I hope Plame and Wilson win their case, knocking a lot of horrible people down off their pedestals in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

That rarely even works for civilian dominated federal agencies, though Carol. And in the case of the CIA, there are simply no civilians who know what goes on "in the field". So the need to have agents and other intelligence personnel be able to blow the whistle on US intelligence operations gone awry, is far more important to our democratic form of government than protecting a CIA analyst's cush job at Langley.

What is more important to our democracy today: Joe Wilson and his disgruntled Democrat friends getting back at the Bush administration, or reining in the covert US government that has grown by leaps and bounds (with Dubya's Daddy's help) since the Reagan years, with no one able to scrutinize their actions?

It's paramount to remember Carol, the law Libby, et al violated was passed when a CIA agent, Philip Agee, went public with all the gruesome details of the CIA's Latin American adventures.

The book is still a compelling and enlightening historical read. It is called Inside the Company: CIA Diary

Don't forget, the only FBI agent who blew the whistle on the FBI over the 9/11 debacle was fired. At least Valerie Plame was able to afford to quit and support herself on her new seven figure book deal, also due to be released any minute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM

It's probably a good thing for our Judicial system that the members of the Mudcat Forum are not in charge of it.

Reading this thread makes it clear that Cheney and Co. have already been tried and convicted in the minds of a majority of the posters, based on media reports and their own prejudices.

What ever happened to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a COURT OF LAW?

I am ashamed of the lot of you. Such shallowness does you no credit.

You may hate Bush, Cheney, Rove, and anyone else you choose but they are still entitled to equal protection under the law, Just like you are.

If they are found guilty, they should be punished according to the pertinent statutes, but until such time they MUST be presumed to be innocent.

While you are all entitled to express your opinion, to act as though the guilt of Cheney et al is a foregone conclusion smacks of pettiness and a childish assumption that your opinion should be the final arbiter.

I am sure that this will cause some comment, so let me repeat what I've said before.

I have very little use for politicians in general and the Bush Administration in particular, but it is central to our system of law that a man is innocent until proven guilty.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM

Good one troll. Except it's a civil case, not criminal, so the guilt factor doesn't fit.

Back to the drawing board for you, then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:11 AM

Yes, and I might have more sympathy for Cheney, Rove, et al in this context if they were more willing to extend those same protections under the law to the many innocent people being denied them in places like Guantanamo. But they are not.

Guest, I can't dispute your points, but as far as I know, that law isn't going to come under review because of the Plame case. Do you know something about it that I don't?


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM

In a "CRIMINAL" court of law (which none of any involved may ever get to see) that they would need to be presumed innocent untill proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt but it's not so in a civil court. They don't need to be convicted beyound any reasonable doubt to be found guilty & blame can be awarded in percentages. She could be 10% to blame herself just because she had the job knowingly that she could be hung out to dry but some body(s) 'IS/ARE' 90% quilty & they need to be brought to bare the their share of the guilt.

Carol C says it far better above that the CIA is an awful & criminal bunch but it's not just a case of whistle blowing. It's a case of a US Ambassador telling the truth & getting punished for it. That in it's self was his real crime not where his wife worked. The Bush Administration is guilty of being stupid enough to use her job as a form of pay back & not realizing (really no thought at all) that it would come back to bite them on the ass & that's their crime.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM

Yes Barry, their real crime is stupidity and venality.

Carol, you are correct in saying the Intelligence Identities Protection Act is not relevant in their suit. However, it is the main ammunition that has been used by the Democrats in the court of public opinion.

No one has been indicted on charges of outing her as a CIA agent in violation of the Act. Libby was indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice--in other words, for falling on his sword to protect Cheney and Rove. That is what anyone at that level is expected to do to protect the boss. Politics 101.

I am deeply concerned that nothing is being done by Congress to hold the Bush administration accountable for their many breaches of our national security, the number one breach being stripping US citizens of their civil rights in the Patriot Act, and number two, taking us to war.

But at this point, I'm far more upset with the US Congress' abrogation of their constitutional duties of oversight and investigation, than I am the Bush administration. Any repressive, authoritarian administration like this (and there are many parallels, IMO, between this Bush administration and the Nixon and Johnson administrations) is going to go petal to the metal and get their agenda as far as they can as fast as they can, and only pull back when checked by the other two branches of government.

The Bush administration is, however, only being checked by the judicial branch. It is as if the Congress doesn't even exist at this point.

Now, I know my opinion is in a fairly extreme minority, because I fault Democrats as much as Republicans for the fine fiddle we are in. But I think history will show that Bush has gotten away with what he has gotten away with not because he is all powerful, but because the Congress abrogated their constitutional duties of oversight and investigation--with the corporate media playing the tunes.

But with Israel bombing the fuck out of the Middle East, and Bush saying that is JUST FINE with him, I think there are far more important things to concern ourselves with than a pretty, publicity hungry Washington power couple being slapped down by Karl Rove.

Just my opinion, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

Now, I know my opinion is in a fairly extreme minority, because I fault Democrats as much as Republicans for the fine fiddle we are in. But I think history will show that Bush has gotten away with what he has gotten away with not because he is all powerful, but because the Congress abrogated their constitutional duties of oversight and investigation--with the corporate media playing the tunes.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this.

But with Israel bombing the fuck out of the Middle East, and Bush saying that is JUST FINE with him, I think there are far more important things to concern ourselves with than a pretty, publicity hungry Washington power couple being slapped down by Karl Rove.

Possibly. Although I find it difficult to look at any of these kinds of issues in isolation from the rest. I think they're all sort of tied inextricably together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM

Forgive me if I have this all wrong, but I seem to remember that Congress - with the exception of Sen. Feinstein - voted to give the President the go-ahead to use whatever means were necessary to bring down Saddam.

This whining and crying that he fooled them by cherry-picking the intelligence reports and lieing looks more to me like "Oh shit we goofed we'ed better cover our asses quick" than anything else.

If they were so stupid as to fall for what they now say was a pack of lies, I would think that , rather than going after the Bush administration, the liberals would be looking to elect some representatives who were not quite so gullible.

It is my understanding that most of them didn't even read the intelligence report sent them by the White House but instead relied on staff synopses. I wonder what they were doing that was so much more important than finding out first-hand what was in that report. It was, after all, their vote that allowed the President to go after Saddam.

As far as Joe Wilson is concerned, he tried to make himself look like a real big wheel by claiming that Cheney himself had asked him to go to Nigeria when the truth is that Cheney did no such thing. Wilson drew attention to himself by bragging about his supposed connections when he would have been better off to have kept his pie hold closed.

If memory serves me, MI5 still says that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake, as does French Intel, Joe Wilson notwithstanding.
I don't know if I'd trust them any more than I would trust the CIA, but Joe Wilson doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence either.

BTW, just because this country won't defend its borders, doesn't give us the right to criticize a country that does.

Just my opinion, you understand.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM

President cites powers of his office

President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.

Among the laws Bush said he can ignore are military rules and regulations, affirmative-action provisions, requirements that Congress be told about immigration services problems, ''whistle-blower" protections for nuclear regulatory officials, and safeguards against political interference in federally funded research.

Legal scholars say the scope and aggression of Bush's assertions that he can bypass laws represent a concerted effort to expand his power at the expense of Congress, upsetting the balance between the branches of government. The Constitution is clear in assigning to Congress the power to write the laws and to the president a duty ''to take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Bush, however, has repeatedly declared that he does not need to "execute" a law he believes is unconstitutional.


In other words, Bush says he can ignore any law passed by Congress, and by asserting that he is the "final authority" on what is Constitutional he claims that his authority takes precedence over the Judiciary, including the Supreme Court.

Sieg Heil mein Führer!

He has repeatedly agreed to "compromises" in order to get legislation through Congress, and then after signing the Laws has simply "written out" the "compromises" in his numerous "Signing Statements," effectively nullifying what Congress has done.

American Bar Association Investigation — to evaluate Bush's assertions that he has the power to ignore laws that conflict with his interpretation of the Constitution.

Among the laws Bush has challenged are the ban on torturing detainees, oversight provisions in the USA Patriot Act, and "whistle-blower" protections for federal employees.
The challenges also have included safeguards against political interference in taxpayer-funded research.
Bush has challenged more laws than all previous presidents combined.


Note especially the "Executive Order" removing protections for Federal Employees under "Whistle Blower Protection" laws passed by Congress, which effectively says any Federal Employee who disagrees with his boss may be fired.

All government employees will now practice saying "Yassuh Boss" as no other response is acceptable to this administration.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:32 PM

The executive can't seize control of the government without the cooperation/abrogation of the other two branches without a military coup.

Since Bush has not staged a coup, his "opinion" of his powers is just that--unless and until another branch of government reins him in. Which they clearly need to. Since the wheels of justice turn so slowly (unless there are votes being counted, of course), it has to be the legislative branch.

But since the party that rules Congress also has control of the White House, the investigative side has, shall we say, gotten a bit mired down?


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM

I just saw Novack interviewed by Russert on TV.

He said no one ever gave him the name, Valerie Plame, only Joe Wilson's wife and he then looked it up.

He Did not and does not believe she was covert.

He believes he did not out her.

She was outed by Aldrich Ames in 1994.

He believes she got Joe Wilson was hired to go to Niger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:33 PM

BTW, just because this country won't defend its borders, doesn't give us the right to criticize a country that does.

We (and our government) criticize countries for defending their borders all the time when the countries in question don't have a "special relationship" with our government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM

Aldrich Ames outed Plame to whom? Russia?

Prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Troll
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:40 PM

CarolC, can you cite some specific examples other than your usual ones about the Israel/ arab conflict?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Troll
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:51 PM

Dianavan, there is, at the present time, no way to prove conclusively that Ames outed Plame since only the CIA knows for sure and they ain't talkin'.

However, since she was taken off active field work shortly after the Ames matter broke and given a desk job in Washington, it is reasonable to assume that the Cia no longer felt that she was a good risk for covert ops.

Of coures, if it could be proven that Ames DIDN'T out her, then that would at a lot more credence to the idea that Bush et al outed her and so should be taken out and shot or something like that.

Which is probably the reason behind your post.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

October 11, 2003

VALERIE PLAME'S CAREER....Today's Nick Kristof (NYT)column on Valerie Plame actually contains some new information:

    First, the C.I.A. suspected that Aldrich Ames had given Mrs. Wilson's name (along with those of other spies) to the Russians before his espionage arrest in 1994. So her undercover security was undermined at that time, and she was brought back to Washington for safety reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:36 PM

You assume an awful lot, Troll, and obviously you can't read or put two and two together.

My post was in response to the previous post by GUEST: "She was outed by Aldrich Ames in 1994."

Thanks for your clarification.

At least now I know that GUEST is just blathering and has no source for his statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Troll
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM

My assumption was based on aome of your previous posts, Dianavan.

Just because my conclusions don't match yours doesn't mean I "can't read or put two and two together."

But, have it your way.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:23 PM

Why would you make an assumption based on my previous posts when I was responding to the GUEST who boldly stated that, "She was outed by Aldrich Ames in 1994?" It is false and misleading.

I asked a simple question to expose the GUEST as a liar. There is no need to refer to my previous posts and then conclude that I wanted someone shot. You too, are stretching the truth.

I hope Plame and Wilson blow the lid off the entire U.S. administration. I'm glad someone is actually challenging the White House. Its about time. I know I wouldn't want two CIA agents trying to prove my guilt about anything. I hope they do their homework and that the American public finally discovers how slimy their leaders really are.

I generally do not support the actions of the CIA but in the case of these two individuals, I'll make an exception. Actually I'd love it if Plame and Wilson went down in history as American heroes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Troll
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 12:19 AM

Based on your last two paragraphs, I rest my case.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:22 AM

Troll - Again - My post of 17 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM was a response to GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM who stated, "She was outed by Aldrich Ames in 1994," which is only speculation not a fact.

You then go on to say, "Of coures, if it could be proven that Ames DIDN'T out her, then that would at a lot more credence to the idea that Bush et al outed her and so should be taken out and shot or something like that."

Your logic is based on assumptions and is obviously intended to discredit me. Stick to the facts and stop making statements about what I am thinking. You don't have a clue. I have plenty to say but you can't take a statement out of context and apply it to a request for clarification. You will certainly arrive at a false conclusion.

Troll away. You're not worth replying to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:29 AM

Why should we leave the countries in the Middle East out of the discussion, Troll?


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM

For once I agree with Sorcha! I'm glad they are suing. Can't wait for the truth to come out.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 11:56 PM

By Clarice Feldman:

In 1998 Wilson left the State Department and began putting his diplomatic contacts to business use. He formed J.C. Wilson International Ventures Corporation, a business development and management company which ventured in gold, oil, and telecommunications and served clients in Africa, Western Europe, and Turkey. At this time new African markets were emerging due to the recent passage of an African trade bill Wilson had helped President Clinton promote. Wilson's African investment interests included oil markets in several parts of Africa and the gold market in Niger. Wilson also kept abreast of the gold market in Iraq, where the price of gold was exceptionally cheap, as Wilson observed in one of his lectures.

    Wilson ran his company out of the offices of an investment company called Rock Creek Corporation. Rock Creek was controlled by Mohammed Alamoudi, whom Wilson had met in 1997 at a reception organized for the World Bank by Westar Group. Alamoudi was a member of the Saudi-Ethiopian Alamoudi dynasty, which was heavily invested in the segments of the African economy Wilson was seeking to penetrate.

    The Alamoudi-affiliated company Delta Services-a Swiss subsidiary of the Saudi company Delta Oil-handled Iraqi oil export contracts in 2000 and 2001 and was revealed in 2003 as a recipient of Iraqi Oil-for-Food vouchers channeled through Abu Abbas, a Palestinian terrorist with Iraqi connections. Delta Services also cooperated with Afghanistan's Taliban regime in a project to build an oil pipeline from Afghanistan to Pakistan, prior to this project's suspension in 1998. In 1999, Alamoudi was accused by USA Today reporter Jack Kelley of heading a bank which was being investigated for financing Al Qaeda.

    USA Today printed retractions of several details in Kelley's article in 2004, after another member of the Alamoudi family-Abdurahman Alamoudi, a prominent American Muslim lobbyist-was indicted on terror-related charges involving a Libyan-backed conspiracy to assassinate Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah. Abdurahman was ultimately convicted in October 2004 and sentenced to 23 years in prison. Under Mohammed Alamoudi's direction, Rock Creek was chaired by Elias Aburdene, an Arab-American international banking advisor and lobbyist who had previously advised banks linked to organized crime and intelligence community figures involved in the S&L Scam. In 2003 and 2004 Aburdene donated to the Sandhills Political Action Committee, which was affiliated with Senator Chuck Hagel, 13 a leading Republican critic of the Bush administration's Iraq policy.

Recall the trip to Africa conducted by Bill Clinton in the wake of the embarrassing Monica Lewinski affair, playing to his most reliable voting base, and bringing with him a very large number of African-American business figures, politicians, and other influential individuals.

    The trip cost almost $50 million and was tagged as the most expensive foreign trip by a US President. Much of this expense was for transportation for the Clinton's took a large delegation with them. The delegation included Jesse Jackson, prominent Black businessmen such as Bob Johnson and the following Congressional delegation: Congressmen Payne ,William Jefferson and Rangel and Congresswoman Maxine Waters, as well as Secretary Slater. (Source)

What is less well known is that the man who orchestrated this trip was Joseph C. Wilson IV co-star of the long-running Plame comedy hour.

    Joe Wilson really was the architect of President Clintons visit to Africa, said Leonard Robinson, senior fellow at the McCormack Institute and deputy executive director of the National Summit on Africa.

The emphasis of this trip was to promote African development, US investment in Africa and US-African trade.   

    Wilson's role was acknowledged by Clinton. When he hosted a dinner for Ghana's visiting President, Wilson and his wife, noted in the press account of the dinner as 'Valerie Wilson' were among the guests. Another honored guest was Congressman William Jefferson and his daughter.

According to the SSCI Wilson made at least one other trip to Africa That was made at his wife's suggestion for the CIA in 1999. He made the second trip there that year as part of a trade delegation. As Just One Minute poster Rocco found these tidbits:

    Mima Nedelcovych, Vice President for International Operations, F. C. Schaffer and Associates, Inc traveled with Wilson, Alamoudi and others in Nov. 99, for a trade delegation.

    Nedelcovych gave Jefferson campaign donations in 01, 02, and 05.

    F. C. Schaffer and Associates is a small Louisiana based sugar company but the curious thing is, the donations aren't from Schaffer, they're from AFRKA GLOBAL/PARTNER

As for the Alamoudis, a substantial amount of information about the family and their links can be found here (see comment 7)

Following the Wilson-managed Clinton trip, the African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA) was signed into law on May 18, 2000 as Title 1 of The Trade and Development Act of 2000. The Act offers tangible incentives for African countries to continue their efforts to open their economies and build free markets.

Corruption , however, has been a continuing problem in Africa and those monitoring the impact of the Act have urged more transparency and monitoring of those countries deemed eligible to participate.

Joe Wilson's new incarnation as a wheeler-dealer in corruption-rife countries in Africa was a perfect fit for his role as impresario of the massive Clinton delegation to Africa, which brought together corruption-stained individuals on the lookout for future business opportunities.

The documents seized in the FBI raid on the offices of Rep. William Jefferson (D-LA) remain unread by Justice Department investigators, pending a federal Appeals Court ruling scheduled for August 27. Jefferson is anxious to overturn the ruling of federal Judge Hogan of the Washington, DC federal District Court, who allowed the raid. One can only surmise that the seized documents contain material even more embarrassing than the discovery of $90,000 in cash in Jefferson’s freezer.

But we already know a bit about the charges and some of the alleged partners of Congressman Jefferson. Two people have pleaded guilty to bribing him. One of them is Vernon L. Jackson, owner of a technology company called iGate. The Washington Post reported:

    Federal authorities have alleged in court documents that Jefferson took more than $500,000 in bribes in exchange for using his official position to promote iGate’s technology in Nigeria, Ghana and Cameroon. The FBI said it videotaped Jefferson taking a $100,000 payoff on July 30, 2005.

    The affidavit discloses an alleged scheme in which Jefferson introduced officials from Netlink Digital Television (NDTV), a Nigerian company, to Jackson.

    NDTV agreed to pay iGate nearly $45 million for the right to use its technology and to distribute it in Nigeria. The affidavit alleges that Jefferson, without iGate’s knowledge, separately negotiated with NDTV officials to receive $5 for each subscriber in “return for Jefferson’s official assistance if the deal was successful.”

The Post also reports that investigators are examining a number of other companies linked to Jefferson, his wife, and various other relatives. While no details have leaked, and the seized documents have not yet yielded their secrets, it is quite probable that the bribery iGate’s owner has acknowledged is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the dubious business associations of Representative Jefferson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plame Sues Cheney/Rove!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 02:18 PM

Joseph Wilson's War

Former US diplomat Joseph Wilson was the first senior government official to expose the lies upon which the Bush administration was building its case for war against Iraq. Politics and the media destroyed Wilson's reputation, but history has proved him right in the end. Now he is fighting to restore his good name.

Wolfgang


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