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BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

GUEST,Woody 20 Jun 06 - 12:34 AM
Arne 20 Jun 06 - 12:02 AM
Ron Davies 19 Jun 06 - 11:33 PM
Arne 19 Jun 06 - 10:04 PM
Lepus Rex 19 Jun 06 - 08:40 PM
DougR 19 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM
dianavan 19 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,Woody 18 Jun 06 - 10:46 PM
Ron Davies 18 Jun 06 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Woody 18 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM
Ron Davies 17 Jun 06 - 04:51 PM
DougR 17 Jun 06 - 04:40 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jun 06 - 09:49 AM
Wolfgang 17 Jun 06 - 09:25 AM
Ron Davies 14 Jun 06 - 10:00 PM
robomatic 14 Jun 06 - 04:57 PM
Amos 14 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM
robomatic 14 Jun 06 - 01:54 PM
dianavan 14 Jun 06 - 02:19 AM
Arne 14 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,Dean 13 Jun 06 - 11:08 PM
Ron Davies 13 Jun 06 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Woody 13 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM
Ron Davies 13 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM
robomatic 13 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,petr 13 Jun 06 - 03:43 PM
Peace 13 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM
Ron Davies 12 Jun 06 - 11:58 PM
Ron Davies 12 Jun 06 - 11:47 PM
robomatic 12 Jun 06 - 08:31 PM
robomatic 12 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM
dianavan 12 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM
Greg F. 12 Jun 06 - 06:11 PM
DougR 12 Jun 06 - 05:31 PM
GUEST 11 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM
dianavan 11 Jun 06 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Woody 11 Jun 06 - 09:11 PM
Greg F. 11 Jun 06 - 09:01 PM
Greg F. 11 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Woody 11 Jun 06 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Woody 11 Jun 06 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,Woody 11 Jun 06 - 08:29 PM
dianavan 11 Jun 06 - 03:22 PM
Amos 11 Jun 06 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 10 Jun 06 - 10:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 06 - 07:36 PM
Arne 10 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM
Greg F. 10 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM
robomatic 10 Jun 06 - 05:23 PM
Peace 10 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:34 AM

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2006/06/forward-togetherday-2.html

Thursday, June 15, 2006

Forward Together...Day 2
Baghdad sounded quieter than usual today, and the sounds of bombs retracted before the tide of official announcements that took the news headlines replacing the usual bloody scenes....

.......I agree that the raid that killed Zarqawi led us to some significant findings and revealed a lot of information but it didn't reveal everything, so I agree with Mr. Rubaie that the end of Zarqawi marked the beginning of al-Qaeda's end in Iraq and I do believe the government has a golden opportunity to deal with al-Qeada and its allies as the death of Zarqawi left his organization and followers in a state of shock and huge suspicion that the network's lines have been infiltrated, and I feel that most of them are behaving clumsily out of fear from being already identified and located. Of course this will make their moves more noticeable and will eventually expose them, that's if they're not already exposed.
Moreover, the government is sending vague messages through the local media stating that some of the documents seized near Zarqawi included names of well known political figures and I think this kind of leaked information is choking the involved elements.

In fact some people here are suggesting a link between the arrest of the head of the city council in Kerbala and the information found in those documents building these speculations on the nature and timing of the arrest, some are expecting similar arrest to follow against even more important figures.
That's what we're going to find out soon but in general these announcement and leaks stand as part of a necessary psychological war that-if performed well-can further lower the morale of the terrorists and their allies.

One of the most significant things about this operation is that we did not see any serious rejection or opposition to it from any of the influential parties or clerics which indicates that there's a general desire to back this operation or at least let it pass without complications and accept it as a means to get out of the deteriorated security situation.
Maybe that's because this particular operation doesn't give an impression that it's directed against a certain segment or sect as the case would be if the operation was conducted in Najaf, Sadr city or Ramadi for example.

The current feeling in Baghdad is that the operation is in the benefit of everyone and this is a good advantage that should be used to achieve success.

Posted by Mohammed @ 23:36


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:02 AM

I dunno, maybe I'll settle for a Preznitential Medal of Freedom.

I'd note that DougR's maligning of my best efforts is quite rude in itself, but not up to professional standards though....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:33 PM

HEY, I WON!!!!! First time I ever won anything.

But, contrary to usual practice, I'd like to say there is plenty of room at the top. I'm sure Doug can come up with trophies for anybody who feels the process wasn't fair. I swear I didn't do anything Abramoff didn't do.

But at least it does mean that Doug is actually starting to read posts--big progress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:04 PM

I feel slighted as well, Lepus.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:40 PM

What, I'm not even in the running for "rudist" (sic) poster? Well, fuck you, too. :(

Anyways, I don't think anyone's mentioned this lately, but there was a little girl killed in the blast, after all. Possibly Zarqawi's daughter, which would, of course, make her at least half terrorist, and thus, like, fair game, or some shit. Do you hope that she "died a very painful death, too, Doug? And do you wish that she could've "suffered a bit longer before entering the gates of hell," as well? Huh, Doug?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM

I have been mulling in my mind who is the rudist poster on the Mudcat, Ron Davies, or Greg F.? Although it's a close race you, Ron, I believe have the edge. Just my opinion of course.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM

Why are you discussing Hamas and Fatah on a thread about al-Zarqawi?

I am beginning to think you have absolutely no thoughts of your own and can only cut and paste (even when it has nothing to do with the topic).

Start your own thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:46 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5093266.stm

Palestinian rivals 'nearing deal'

Hamas supporters demonstrate outside Palestinian parliament building in Ramallah

Rival Palestinian factions Hamas and Fatah are close to agreement on an initiative that would implicitly recognise Israel, officials say.

Senior figures have been in talks to resolve deep divisions over the move.

Hamas, which now controls the Palestinian government, refuses to recognise Israel's right to exist - in contrast to Fatah's position.

President Mahmoud Abbas has threatened to hold a referendum next month on the plan unless Hamas accepts it.

Hamas also challenges the legality of the referendum, which has been announced for 26 July.

The plan sets out formal Palestinian claims to an independent state on land occupied by Israel in 1967, and implicitly adopts a two-state solution.

The two factions have been locked in an intense power struggle since Hamas gained control of the Palestinian parliament in elections in January.

In another development, the factions have reached agreement on the division of the security forces, the Israeli Haaretz website reports.

Hamas is also under intense financial pressure, as the EU and US cut off funding after it came to power because of its stand on Israel.

But Western powers have agreed moves to release more than $120m of EU funds to support local health services and cater for the basic needs of poor Palestinians, but bypassing the Hamas government.

'Positive outlook'

The plan, known as the "prisoners' document", is based on proposals by Palestinian militants in Israeli jails.

It calls for continued resistance on lands occupied by Israel in 1967, but proposes an end to attacks inside the area internationally recognised as Israel.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya - a leading Hamas figure - said in a statement that "tangible progress" had been made in the talks.

Earlier Aziz Dweik, a Hamas leader and parliament speaker said that in the coming days "we will have a new and optimistic step for our Palestinian people."

A Fatah spokesman, Tawfiq Abu Khussa, told the AFP news agency that agreement had been reached "on almost all of the issues in the prisoners initiative and things are looking very positive."

Another senior Fatah figure, Abdullah Ifranji, also predicted agreement would be reached in the coming days, saying: "There is an agreement on the document with reservations, but the movement is positive."

The Palestinian parliament which is dominated by Hamas will hold a debate on the referendum issue this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:50 PM

Woody--

Al Queda victory plan included, from your own just-posted article, Woody--instigating war between the US and Iran. Now who do you suppose is playing into al-Queda's hands on just this point? As Carol has pointed out elsewhere--try Mr. Bush.

Don't you even read what you yourself post? Or do you just lift it from your source without thinking? Admittedly that would fit the typical Bushite approach.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=12662

How Al Qaeda Lost Iraq

6/18/2006   Strategy Page

A side benefit of killing al Qaeda leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi on June 7th, was the capture of many of his working documents. Much of what these documents contained had been obtained in earlier raids, and from interrogations. But this time, American intelligence officers had an up to date record of what al Qaeda was thinking, what their plans were and, perhaps most importantly, how they thought they were doing. Zarqawi believed al Qaeda's situation was bleak, and getting worse. The main reason for that glum assessment was the growth of the Iraqi security forces (army and police), and the movement of these forces into Sunni Arab areas of central Iraq during the past year. The battle of Fallujah last Fall was the beginning of the end, and the constant pressure since then has made it more difficult for al Qaeda to plan and carry out terror attacks. The mass media found nothing newsworthy in al Qaedas declining fortunes, but Zarqawi and his lieutenants were certainly paying attention.

Interestingly, Zarqawi mentions unfavorable media coverage of al Qaeda with in Iraq, without admitting that the deaths of thousands of Iraqis by terror attacks might have anything to do with it. According to Zarqawi, those deaths would not be so harmful if it wasn't because of the way the Iraqi government propaganda made al Qaeda look like a bunch of unfeeling butchers. Zarqawi was also dismayed at the number of Sunni Arabs who were turning away from al Qaeda, and supporting the government. Zarqawi was also feeling the financial pinch, apparently from the American and Iraqi operation to shut down the smuggling across the Syrian border, and international efforts to reduce foreign funding of al Qaeda operations in general. Zarqawi was also unhappy with the growing number of foreign countries that were setting up embassies in Iraq, which made the government appear more legitimate.

Zarqawi had a plan for a comeback, which depended on increased recruiting, establishing more bomb workshops, having more of his people join the army and police (to spy, and recruit new terrorists) and to improve discipline within the ranks of al Qaeda in Iraq. All of these ideas are indicative of an organization that was falling apart.

But it gets worse, at least for Zarqawi. His "victory plan" involved instigating battles between Shia factions, between Shia and Kurds and, best of all, between the U.S. and Iran. With all of his enemies thus distracted, al Qaeda would unify the Sunni Arabs and take over Iraq. That was the plan, apparently it still is. Zarqawi believed that he could depend on media in Moslem countries, as well as anti-American media in the West, to help get the al Qaeda version of reality out. There was evidence at the June 7 bombing site, that Zarqawi kept up on Iraqi and foreign media. But he apparently didn't notice that al Qaeda was not popular at all. Zarqawi was still popular to the hard core al Qaeda fanboys, but was rapidly losing traction in the rest of the Islamic world.

Zarqawi, and his strategies, had become a liability to the other al Qaeda brass. For them, Zarqawi's death was timely, and quite useful. Zarqawi's successor faces a pretty grim situation. While the new guy appears to be another foreigner, most of al Qaeda in Iraq is staffed, and run, by Iraqi Sunni Arabs. These fellows are the radical fringe of the Iraqi Sunni Arab community, which is now largely seeking to make deals with the Iraqi government. So the new al Qaeda leadership in Iraq has to first deal with dissent within the Sunni Arab community, before turning to the larger issue of democracy and majority rule in Iraq. The Sunni Arabs make up less than twenty percent of Iraq's population. Actually, given the many (over a million) Iraqi Sunni Arabs who have fled the country in the last three years, that's probably closer to fifteen percent these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:51 PM

I said its importance hinges on whether it can be used to persuade Shiite militias to disband. That is the single biggest obstacle to more Sunni participation in the government. They will also have to ease off on "de-Baathification"--which it appears they are starting to do--possibly using the reconciliation approach of South Africa after apartheid.

It would be refreshing if you would read carefully for once, Doug. Though it goes against your strongest beliefs--i.e. that all you need to know you can get from Fox News and the Arizona Republic (an).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:40 PM

But why wait, Ron? After all you have already declared it an unimportant event? That makes it so, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:49 AM

Time will tell how important it was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:25 AM

The organizational structure and location of the group is no better known to intell.   So why is this a major event? (Amos)

They have found a lot of data beneath the bodies, memory sticks and all that. Several successful raids in the last couple of days are a consequence of those finds. That makes it a major event and not alone the propaganda value of killing a leader of the enemy.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:00 PM

Robo--

Whatever you say, Mr. Reagan.

You did mention "Wait, Wait" and Jon Stewart in the same paragraph. Rotten apples and wonderful oranges, in my opinion. "Wait, Wait", for lack of a better phrase, is puerile tripe-- (I like the word "tripe"). Jon Stewart is probably the best political and social satire in the US in decades. YMMV.

Re: Zarqawi: as mentioned earlier in the thread, Zarqawi had proven recently to be an embarrassment--or worse--to the insurgency. See for instance the reaction to his attack on the Jordanian hotel. At this point he's far more useful as a martyr--this was even noted by the Wall St Journal recently--with the suspicion that he was betrayed for just this reason.

PBS aired an old show about Mr. Z. I hope it helped their ratings. But, as Shania said-- that don't impress me much--(does that make this a music thread?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 04:57 PM

Amos:

I think it's a major event because we all watch too much television and this is like the ending of a major supporting character on a show we can't turn off. But it matters to the show and anyone who watches it. As far as the administration goes, I think they could have overplayed it and did not, which shows they are capable of learning from the past. That's a good sign.

Robo


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM

There's no question that killing a Terrorist Leader is excellent PR for those who promote a "War On Terror". But there's little indication this was a strategic advance in any real way. He has been replaced in his organization already, as might have been predicted. The resources of the organization have not been significantly depleted. The motivation of the group has not been diluted. The organizational structure and location of the group is no better known to intell.   So why is this a major event? Because of the media coverage afforded to it?

I can only hope it is genuinely demoralizing to some of the Al Qeda-in-Iraq sub-echelons, but I kinda doubt that to be the case, and certainly not for very long.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 01:54 PM

Ron -

There ya go again. I did not say Wait Wait is on a par with Daily Show. I think that's a comparison of apples and oranges. I mentioned that I no longer see the Daily Show, and then I mentioned I can download Wait Wait. See how what people say can be turned around by those who like to make associations and conclusions and inferences out of thin air? (prob'ly not).

Love the Sopranos. you can download that, too, if you know how.

As for Zarqawi, PBS re-aired an entire Frontline show about him and his impact on the Al Qaida in Iraq and the internecine actions going on amongst the so-called insurgents (terrorists) who we are fighting there. Seemed significant to a lot of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:19 AM

Woody - I thought we won the 'war in Iraq'. Isn't that what happened when Saddam was ousted and a new government was 'democratically' elected?

How can you win a war that you have already won?

Oh, I am so confused. Is it a war in Iraq or is it a 'war on terrorism'?

If its a 'war on terrorism', why are we fighting it in Iraq? I thought most of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia.

...and why are we killing all those women and children?

Who cares about al-Zarqawi? The only changes he can make is in American polls. He's dead. Now can the soldiers come home?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM

Almost to the day that Dubya snuck in to that modern-day Elysium of Baghdad, we're set to hit the 2.5K dead mark for U.S. soldiers over there. But it won't stop there, like some climber reaching the magical plateau, easy street from there on. Nope. We'll end up with as many dead in Iraq as we had on Sept. 11th, and for no discernible purpose outside of Dubya's incompetence, arrogance, political opportunism, and "shrunken dick" syndrome.   Nope, just another three thousand more (and countless more Iraqi) senseless deaths.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Dean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:08 PM

"the idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong,"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:44 PM

"The war is winnable"--now there's a classically meaningless statement--remember it's the "war on terror", as we've been assured by the maladministration more than once.

When do you think "terror" is going to surrender, pray tell?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM

A USA Today/Gallup poll released Tuesday found that most Americans considered the killing of al Qaeda leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi a "major achievement'' and suggested that opinion which has turned steadily against the war remains volatile.

The poll found that 51 percent of Americans still say it was a mistake to go to war in Iraq, a drop from nearly 60 percent at the end of last year. The new poll found that 48 percent believe the war is winnable, up from 39 percent in April.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM

Robo--

The thread title itself is meaningless--unless we are to imply that his death has an impact on the Iraq war. ( It seems reasonable to infer that this was the intent of the thread originator.)

Point is: not likely--depends on whether it can be used to persuade militias to disband---which is unlikely. Cabinet is more important--by far--and ignored by said thread originator.


"Wait, Wait" on a par with Jon Stewart? Surely you jest.

I never get a chance to see Jon Stewart the first time--just the repeat--at least a day later. But in today's (repeat) program he did have some good observations about the changing of the terrorist guard in Iraq--to expound on what I mentioned earlier.

He did say they might look outside--at non-traditional sources--perhaps the Tamil Tigers--or for somebody with organizational skills, a soprano.

I was so convinced that would make this a musical thread--as in "What's the difference between a pit bull and a soprano? Lipstick".   But Jan tells me he might well have been referring to a TV program.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

Ron, Petr: Appreciate the Jon Stewart references. I no longer get to watch him and miss Daily Show terribly. At least I can download "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" weekly.

Bruce, anyone who believes torturers are made not born has no idea of the range of human nature, nor paid attention to what little boys do with magnifying glasses, gunpowder caps, and bugs or little brothers.

Saying that the death of Zarqawi has no significance more than once in this forum is like the atheist spending a lot of time trying to convince folks in the unexistence of God.

In other words, nice to hear from ya, but can ya read the thread title?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 03:43 PM

they took a sample of Zarqawis DNA so they could clone him
and kill him a second time closer to the Midterm elections.
(thanks to John Stewart for thatone)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM

"Torturers are not born, they are nurtured, trained and supported. In many countries they rely on foreign governments for the tools of their trade and expertise in how to use them. Some governments are directly involved in the torture trade; others prefer to turn a blind eye. Few have shown the political will to put an end to this trade whose profits are built on the suffering of countless torture victims.

Some of the tools of the torturer's trade seem almost medieval — shackles, leg irons, thumbscrews, handcuffs and whips. However, in recent years there has been a marked expansion in the manufacture, trade and use of other kinds of technology used by security and police forces, especially electro-shock technology. New research for this report has shown that the number of companies worldwide known to be producing or supplying electro-shock equipment had risen from 30 in the 1980s to more than 130 by 2000."

Lest we forget.

from

http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/index.do


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:58 PM

Or new Iraq terror leader--yes, I am aware Zarqawi was Jordanian. In fact the terror organzation in Iraq will be much stronger if it is headed by an Iraqi. And it's not Terror, Inc.--more like lots of terror franchises all over with tenuous--or absolutely no--loyalty to Osama--or anybody. Not to mention the continuing sectarian violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:47 PM

Ah Doug--with your patented incisive foreign policy analysis, you have again homed in on--by far--the less significant development of the day, Zarqawi's death --meaningless except for poor beleaguered Bushites who are desperately grasping at straws. (Could that possibly include your good self?)

And of course you ignore by far the more important development of the day--the completion of the Iraqi cabinet--including a Sunni as Minister of Defense. Well done, good job.

You--and of course Fox News--can be proud of yourselves for missing the point-- yet again.

And of course the Cabinet news may well also prove a transitory piece of good news--especially if, as I've said before, the constitution is not amended to better suit Sunnis.

The death of Zarqawi is totally meaningless--unless it can somehow be used to persuade Shias to disband their militias. An open question--to say the least.

Jon Stewart noted that the main question now is whether they would perhaps look to a non-traditional source for the new Iraqi terror leader--perhaps a woman or a non-Moslem. (That's humor, Doug--don't get your knickers in a twist.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:31 PM

For render unto Television after all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

Well, apparently Al Zarqawi lived and was conscious up until he was taken into custody, so he had the capacity to know he was going into the enemy's power, and most bitterly he was able to realize that he'd never get to know how this year's World Cup Soccer was going to come out.

This is another area where the American occupation could show a little class, providing good coverage for something guaranteed to keep a lot of Iraqis off the streets. I'm sure such service could be provided for less than the reward to whosomever fingered our boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM

DougR - You seem to be able to read but your comprehension is very low. I was responding to what Woody wrote, as well as what Amos wrote. From what I have gathered, the Iraqi people could care less about al-Zarqawi, one way or another. If you know differently then please provide a source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:11 PM

Douggie: I see now how you reach your own conclusions. You make the shit up as you go along.

Not funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:31 PM

danavan: I see now how you reach many of your conclusions. Amos posts one message from one Iraqi citizen (at least he/she says he/she is) stating an opinion and to you, that's the opinion of the whole population of Iraq. Funny.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM

Ala'a


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:29 PM

Woody - So who are you? Al Salam Alaykum, Mohammed or Abbas Khadim?

I am assuming that you are none of the above and copy and pasted but I can't tell where your thoughts end and their's begin.

...but it seems that 2 out of 3 say that al-Zarqawi's death is insignificant. I agree.

The third one refers to the beloved Ussama Al-Jadaan. Who is this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:11 PM

Saturday, June 10, 2006
The death of Abu Mus`ab al-Zarqawi is a very welcome news. This, however, is not enough, since too much has been said about this particular terrorist that many people feel that his death is going to change things dramatically. I am sad to say that it will not.

What will change things dramatically is for the Iraqi government to activate the judiciary and begin processing those who are sitting in detention waiting to be released in some fishy deal every once in a while. Terrorists in Iraq should be dealt with in the same manner elsewhere. They should be tried in a fast fashion and made examples of.

They just released a group from detention in the name of the so-called 'national reconciliation.' When they are captured they are said to be terrorists and when they release them arbitrarily they call them detainees.

Abu Mus`ab was a rotten terrorist who committed every disgraceful act on the books.

# posted by Abbas Khadim : 12:27 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:01 PM

or possibly Nugatory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM

Is that Woody, or Wordy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:42 PM

Sunday, June 11, 2006

Some are sad just because we're happy.
Hamas's reaction to the death of Zarqawi caused the contempt of so many Iraqis. The printed and watched Iraqi media lashed out vigorously on Hamas, politicians and ordinary people on the streets are just equally angered by some Arabic official and media reactions which spoke of the criminal as if he were a hero.

It is totally unimaginable why someone would describe the head chopping, children murdering terrorist as a hero. It's disgusting and infuriating beyond words.

This wrongful description of evil is a major reason for misery in this region and it only contributes to justifying more unjustifiable death and violence. This makes one sometimes whishes that Iraq is somehow lifted away from these perverted sociopaths who surround us.

To say I was angry is the least I can say to describe how I felt reading the comments from Arabs on a BBC forum. There was no surprise that all Iraqi commentators were pleased that we got rid of that vicious terrorists but on the other hand there was probably 90% of non-Iraqi Arab commentators who mourned him as a martyr.

Here I'm choosing only one comment that drew my attention because it shows how when hate prejudice reaches certain levels it blinds the minds and hearts of people.
This one comment maybe the most accurate to describe how thousands if not millions think in this region; this Arab commentator is telling frankly why he's sad without lying and without using decorated speech.
I think it reflects the truth in the way of thinking of unfortunately many Arabs; a truth that was released by an individual mouth carrying more courage of expression than those who appease and keep their inside hidden…

    Zarqawi's death means nothing at all because it's the byproduct of the despotic policy that exists in his home country, Jordan.
    There are thousands of Zarqawis in our nation who are getting persecuted and terrorized so they found their way to Iraq where they can vent, thanks to America who brought destruction to the region with the help of her agents (the rulers). And for your information, our information about Zarqawi is vague…is he a national hero, or a criminal terrorist? We don't know for sure but we see that our enemies are so happy that he's killed and that is what makes me feel sad for his death.



I'll end this with a comment from Iraq…

    I used to be against killing people because of their perverted opinions or their anti-freedom doings but after I have seen and lived through their terrorism and anti-humanity extremism I say now that the only solution is to end the life of those who are not even humans. They poison the minds and thoughts of sane people.

    People, let the world live in freedom and happiness…
    I say it to all the sane and rational people; congratulations on the death of Zarqawi.


I couldn't agree more, so if you are sane, come celebrate the moment with us, but if not, get prepared to mourn more demons.

Posted by Mohammed


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:39 PM

Well, today is a good day. The urge to express my feelings is so strong that I am back at the keyboard despite the terrible apathy that has gripped me these last months. You can probably guess at some of the reasons for this state of mind. I am not going into details. Only it seems to me that intelligent people should not pay such a high price just to learn some few facts that have always seemed to me quite simple and mundane.

But I don't plan to go into that today, because today is a good day indeed. An arch zombie has been blown to smithereens. You know, I am the sort of guy who gets distressed at the sight of blood and cannot bear the sight of even a dead animal, believe it or not. But you know, I was shocked at my own feelings of pleasure on beholding the photo of the dead face of Zarqawi. I would never have thought that possible. I have never felt this way my whole life. Yet the atrocities and outrages that these pseudo humans, these misanthropes, have perpetrated have engendered such anger, such sorrow, such rage that not even the most peaceful of souls can control their hatred of these criminals. My only regret was that the death was fast and sudden, and I felt pain that the true martyr of our country our beloved Ussama Al-Jadaan could not witness this day which he had predicted and played a big role in bringing about.

Well, I am not going to dwell on the reaction of people like Al Jazeera (again) who showed their true color today without even any attempt at dissimulation. So this arch murderer of day laborers, bakers, school children and etc. etc., this master be-header of poor hostages and planner of car bombings and all kinds of the most outrageous orgies of mass killings; this man is to be mourned and regretted as a martyr and mujahid etc. etc.!!! Yes, friends, believe it or not these sentiments were expressed openly and repeated hysterically on mass media like the notorious one referred to above. I still cannot understand why when whole countries and regimes are labeled as rogue states and suffer sanctions and the like when, here we have an official state owned media outlet that has played a major role in inciting and aiding and abetting the most violent forms of terrorism; and nothing has been done against them and those who sponsor and finance them. Indeed the state that harbors this state of affairs enjoys the blessings and the best of relations with the west and the free world.

But it is not that which I want most to say today. I want to congratulate the valiant eagles of the American Air force and all the men of the U.S. Army, the Iraqi security forces and all those involved in executing this just punishment and for being the instrument of providential justice. Blessed be the wombs that bore you, and please accept this expression of gratitude and love from an ordinary Iraqi man. And as for you American people rest assured that our faith in victory has not shaken on single iota. I can only end with the words of our dear President Bush: "God Bless Iraq and May God continue to Bless America".

Al Salam Alaykum


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:29 PM

Al Queda in Iraq leader al-Zarquari is dead.

And now the Haditha case against the Marines is falling apart. It appears that the "young" reporter (there is a picture) who is also a founder of a human rights group has some questions to answer.

    Why start a human rights group if you want to remain anonymous? And why did Time pretend their source was young? Why did they pretend he had no involvement with Hammurabi? (When in fact he is its founder.)

    But that is just the start of the many questionable aspects of Thabit's accounts.

    Bear in mind that this "budding journalism student" waited until the next day to videotape this alleged atrocity, which supposedly happened on his very doorstep.

    Note that this same "budding journalism student" and self-proclaimed human rights watcher did not bother to turn over his video to a media outlet or a real human rights group from November 2005 until March 2006. A four month delay.

    That's how eager they were to make sure such a crime is never again repeated.

Read the whole thing to get the full context for the reporters on the case. Time Magazine is not looking too good either.

Even more interesting is the full social context of what is happening in Haditha. It may be all about an effort to extract more blood money out of the US Military.

    On the side of a road in a ramshackle tent tribal elders have gathered for a court case, but it is not an ordinary law court, it's a tribal court. The case defies logic - one brother has killed another, but the tribe they belonged to is blaming a rival tribe for the killing.

    Their argument is that if there had not been a feud with the other tribe, the killing would not have taken place; they are now demanding $20,000 in blood money….

    At the tribal court, the discussion is heated, but not about guilt or innocence. Through a complex network of tribal support, both sides know where they stand, now it is just a matter of agreeing the money.

    Eventually the price is knocked down to $4,000 and a woman, her value to be determined in later negotiations.

    For many Iraqis it's a system that works, and in a violent region recompense appears much more practical than locking someone away.

The article has more on the blood money system and how it relates to the news from Haditha and a previous British case.

    The logic in the British case and possibly in Haditha is simple: If the coalition did not have a fight with the insurgents, the deaths would not have occurred. The deaths cause a loss in the resources of the tribe. The tribe cannot file a claim with Zarqawi--he might chop their heads off--therefore it is the coalition that owes blood money. In the eyes of tribal people such as Haditha residents, this debt is owed regardless of who actually killed the 24 people in Haditha or the circumstances of those deaths. The payment of blood money is not an admission of guilt; it is a balancing of tribal obligations.

    What tribal Iraqis would understand as blood money has in fact already been paid by US military representatives in Haditha. According to the May 31 New York Times payments totaling $38,000 were made "within weeks of the shootings" to the families of 15 of the 24 dead.

So they already have gotten their blood money. Could it be they are trying to enhance the deal? An excerpt from the New York Times quoted in the article:

    In an interview Tuesday, Maj. Dana Hyatt, the officer who made the payments, said he was told by superiors to compensate the relatives of 15 victims, but was told that rest of those killed had been deemed to have committed hostile acts, leaving their families ineligible for compensation.

    After the initial payments were made, however, those families demanded similar payments, insisting their relatives had not attacked the marines, Major Hyatt said….

    The list of 15 victims deemed to be noncombatants was put together by intelligence personnel attached to the battalion, Major Hyatt said. Those victims were related to a Haditha city council member, he said. The American military sometimes pays compensation to relatives of civilian victims.

    The relatives of each victim were paid a total of $2,500, the maximum allowed under Marine rules, along with $250 payments for two children who were wounded. Major Hyatt said he also compensated the families for damage to two houses.

    "I didn't say we had made a mistake," Major Hyatt said, describing what he had told the city council member who was representing the victims. "I said I'm being told I can make payments for these 15 because they were deemed not to be involved in combat."

The article from the Hawaii Reporter has much more on the Haditha Stories discrepancies and the blood money system. Read it all.

The Marine who gave lurid details of the Haditha "crime" may have had a motive for being a fabulist.

    Others have noted many weird aspects to Corporal Briones' previous statements about being ordered to photograph the Haditha victims, and his further claims about his camera being stolen.

    It is highly questionable that the Marines would order a rank and file soldier to do such a thing. And to use his own (non-official) camera to document such an important, possibly criminal event.

    It is also highly improbably that they would enlist someone who could himself face future charges in such an effort.

    And, lastly, it is very unlikely that they would allow such valuable evidence as these photos to disappear.

    This latest news, however, may very well shed light on Briones' motives.

    Apparently all of Briones' statements to the media about being ordered to photograph the Haditha corpses were made after his drunken hit and run felony on April 3, 2006. (His first appearance in the press seems to be an interview with the Los Angeles Times on May 29, 2006.)

    If Briones was so traumatized by what he saw in Haditha, why did he wait six months to tell anyone about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 03:22 PM

Thanks Amos - That says it all.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was insignificant to the Iraqi people.

Who cares about the death of one man when your country is in the middle of a civil war. His death will change nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:58 PM

Here's the point of view of one Iraqi blogger:

Zarqawi...
So 'Zarqawi' is finally dead. It was an interesting piece of news that greeted us yesterday morning (or was it the day before? I've lost track of time…). I didn't bother with the pictures and film they showed of him because I, personally, have been saturated with images of broken, bleeding bodies.

The reactions have been different. There's a general consensus amongst family and friends that he won't be missed, whoever he is. There is also doubt- who was he really? Did he even exist? Was he truly the huge terror the Americans made him out to be? When did he actually die? People swear he was dead back in 2003… The timing is extremely suspicious: just when people were getting really fed up with the useless Iraqi government, Zarqawi is killed and Maliki is hailed the victorious leader of the occupied world! (And no- Iraqis aren't celebrating in the streets- worries over electricity, water, death squads, tests, corpses and extremists in high places prevail right now.)

I've been listening to reactions- mostly from pro-war politicians and the naïveté they reveal is astounding. Maliki (the current Iraqi PM) was almost giddy as he made the news public (he had even gone the extra mile and shaved!). Do they really believe it will end the resistance against occupation? As long as foreign troops are in Iraq, resistance or 'insurgency' will continue- why is that SO difficult to understand? How is that concept a foreign one?

"A new day for Iraqis" is the current theme of the Iraqi puppet government and the Americans. Like it was "A New Day for Iraqis" on April 9, 2003 . And it was "A New Day for Iraqis" when they killed Oday and Qusay. Another "New Day for Iraqis" when they caught Saddam. More "New Day" when they drafted the constitution… I'm beginning to think it's like one of those questions they give you on IQ tests: If 'New' is equal to 'More' and 'Day' is equal to 'Suffering', what does "New Day for Iraqis" mean?

How do I feel? To hell with Zarqawi (or Zayrkawi as Bush calls him). He was an American creation- he came along with them- they don't need him anymore, apparently. His influence was greatly exaggerated but he was the justification for every single family they killed through military strikes and troops. It was WMD at first, then it was Saddam, then it was Zarqawi. Who will it be now? Who will be the new excuse for killing and detaining Iraqis? Or is it that an excuse is no longer needed- they have freedom to do what they want. The slaughter in Haditha months ago proved that. "They don't need him anymore," our elderly neighbor waved the news away like he was shooing flies, "They have fifty Zarqawis in government."

So now that Zarqawi is dead, and because according to Bush and our Iraqi puppets he was behind so much of Iraq's misery- things should get better, right? The car bombs should lessen, the ethnic cleansing will come to a halt, military strikes and sieges will die down… That's what we were promised, wasn't it? That sounds good to me. Now- who do they have to kill to stop the Ministry of Interior death squads, and trigger-happy foreign troops?


- posted by river @ 12:47 AM




Regards,

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:15 PM

Oh for heaven's sakes, quit bickering!

What has to be done, has to be done. Its done, lets move on to the next monster and do what has to be done.

Again none of it a day too soon for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:36 PM

And they'd have been more likely to have skipped across from Iran as a way "to avoid any unpleasantness". Al Qaida weren't any more popular in Iran than it was in the parts of Iraq under Saddam's control. Intentionally or not, the US provided Ansar with a sanctuary inside Iraq, within the no-fly zone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM

Teribis:

Only trouble with that arguement is that Ansar al-Islam's camp was NOT in the Northern "No-Fly" Zone. The campe lies south-east of it and is conveniently close to the Iranian border to let those who have to skip across to avoid any unpleasantness.

Without sources, it's a bit hard to evaluate Teribus's claims.

There is: this, and this, for example, in support of Teribus's contentions.

But there's this and this to the contrary.

But it's pretty uch menaingless quibbling. The "no-fly zone" was meant to protect Kurdish areas in the North from Saddam, and for that it worked pretty well, allowing the establishment of independent Kurdish zones of control there (one under the KDP and one under the rival PUK), and all accounts above agree that the Ansar al-Islam camps in and around Halabja were within the PUK controlled area. And as one commenter on the firts link above noted, it was in part the "no-fly" zones that enabled the Kurdish enclaves.

Which, of course, is what matters here; Ansar wasn't in an area under Saddam's control. Sorry if I used an inaccurate shorthand for the northern zones under Kurdish control (assuming that in fact the "no-fly zone was set rigidly at the 36th parallel, something that's also not quite obvious; the U.S. repeatedly flew into areas below it, and challenged any aircraft at all if they even looked cross-eyed at the U.S... or had the temerity to fly, period).

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM

Fox News is the only channel I know of that offers both conservative and liberal points of view to be aired.

If anyone ever wondered if Douggie is suffering from any number of serious psychoses and cognitive dysfunctions, here's your proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:23 PM

It's good news (Getting Zarqawi). You don't have to make an issue of how or if you're going to celebrate. It's like finding out they got a bad tumor. It's better than not getting it. Yeah, it might lead to other tumors, but it might not. News still pending.

We needed some good news. We know it ain't over, and we're sure not rooting for the so-called insurgents, are we? <=loaded question.

A lot of Iraqis have cause to celebrate this, the kind who were getting blown up as part of Zarqawi's earnest attempt to foment a civil war, which was pretty much all kinds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM

I don't think his death should be celebrated; I do think it should be welcomed.


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