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BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus

GUEST,Sori 28 May 06 - 11:59 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 28 May 06 - 12:12 PM
Big Mick 28 May 06 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Sori 28 May 06 - 12:30 PM
Dead Horse 28 May 06 - 12:43 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Sori 28 May 06 - 01:05 PM
Big Mick 28 May 06 - 01:13 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Sori 28 May 06 - 01:32 PM
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Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 02:02 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 02:10 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 02:12 PM
Don Firth 28 May 06 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,AR282 28 May 06 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Sori 28 May 06 - 02:53 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 02:59 PM
Clinton Hammond 28 May 06 - 03:02 PM
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Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 03:10 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 06 - 03:12 PM
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Big Mick 28 May 06 - 03:22 PM
Peace 28 May 06 - 03:23 PM
Peace 28 May 06 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Sori 28 May 06 - 03:28 PM
Peace 28 May 06 - 03:33 PM
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Subject: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 11:59 AM

Myths are a collection of stories associated with a culture, institution, or person.

The stories are believed to be true by those people who claim that culture, institution, person as their own.

The stories feature religious beliefs and/or the spiritual world view of that culture, institution, person.

Debating whether Jesus was an historical figure, or 'fact or fiction' rather misses the whole point.

It isn't 'who' Jesus was. It is what he represents to people who believe in him.

Just because Christianity is the dominant religion in the world right now (not the largest, just the most dominant politically, culturally and economically) doesn't make Christian mythology true.

Any more than it makes Maori mythology true.

The facts of mythology--that all religion is myth, for instance-- disturbs true believers, be they Christian or Muslim or Hindi or Buddhist or Sikh or...fill in the blank with any religion you can think of, and all the ones you know nothing about.

The process of constructing religious belief through myth is the same.

That is why the Da Vinci Code isn't the least bit radical. It is quite conventional, actually, because it doesn't question the mythology of Christianity: the belief that Jesus was an historical person, rather than a mythic god, like Zeus.

The only difference between Christian mythology and Greek and Roman mythology, is that Westerners no longer believe Greek and Roman mythology true, as our ancestors did. Now we believe Christian mythology (which usurped the Greek & Roman) to be true instead.

And one day, our descendants will no longer be Christians, because some other belief system will come along and take it's rightful place in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:12 PM

Actually, Sori... "The Da Vinci Code" isn't the least bit radical because it has virtually no historical refferencing, is an obvious trump up of a 'what if' scenario, and feeds only on the moral slovenliness of a debauched and indolent... entertainment based... democracy of temptations.

ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:18 PM

Yeah, TTR, this is but another piece of troll bait from the Minnesota Monster trying to wind folks up. Must be a slow day in Minneapolis/St. Paul. But the premise isn't bad for a discussion, had s/he not used the inflammatory stuff, and used a novel that freely skewed the available data as the basis for the discussion.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:30 PM

Compare the myths of the life of Jesus, to the myths of the life of the Egyptian god Horus, another divine hero-god representing wisdom, truth, purity, and goodness.

Even those Westerners who don't believe the gospels to be inerrant and inspired by god, still cling to a desire to believe that Jesus was an historical figure, and that Christian mythology is rooted in historic fact.

It is not. The vast majority of religious historians and scholars begin with the premise that Christian mythology will be proven to be historic fact, if they just look long and hard enough, and ignore other equally rational explanations and interpretations of historical evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dead Horse
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:43 PM

Why post this stuff on Mudcat?
Take it to a religeous site where they give a damn!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:49 PM

Heh!

Mythology if taken literally is, of course, just mythology.

If taken allegorically, however, it can be quite useful in demonstrating valuable moral precepts, valuable philosophical premises, and the other nonmaterial considerations like that which give our lives meaning and conscious purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:05 PM

Exactly my point, Little Hawk.

The allegorical Christ myth was destroyed by the Christian institution to serve their earthly interests.

Christian mythological stories that were originally supposed to be regarded as allegory and metaphor were appropriated by the political institution of the church, and transformed into 'historical fact'.

The Christ of myth became a flesh and blood person identified with Jesus. Central to the tragedy of that misappropriation of the Christ myth, is the idea that Christ was originally supposed to come 'in man' because the Christ principle was potentially in every one of us.

Instead, this idea was changed to reflect the exclusivist teaching of church doctrine, which insisted that the Christ had come as a man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:13 PM

Actually, the "fact" you describe (Christ in man as opposed to Christ as man) was hotly contested and debated in the early days. It is a good discussion, but you seem to state that one side is fact as opposed to the other. Cites please?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:20 PM

Well, I think that "the Christ" is an inner potential that is latent in all men and women. When a particular person, such as Jesus, Buddha, Ramakrishna, Gandhi, White Buffalo Woman, Rama, and many others...when a person like that appears somewhere and profoundly impresses many people at the time, it sometimes results in a new religion being formed afterward as a result. In the further development of the new religion embellishments are inevitably added to the tale, and so it goes. That's how myths arise over a long period of time. I think they all have real events at their core, but people add further stuff of their own invention on top of the story of those events, and the story keeps changing.

What you describe the Christian church doing sounds accurate enough to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:32 PM

Actually, Gandhi is the only name on the list I consider to have been an actual person.

All the rest are characters in various world mythologies.

I do not believe the man Christians call Jesus, or Joshua, was an actual person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:42 PM

Also, as long as the majority of the post-Christian world remains obsessed with proving the existence of an historical Christ that went by the name Jesus/Joshua, no one need pay attention to writings like Thomas Merton's "Peace in the Post-Christian Era" or liberation theology or Lynn Gottlieb's "She Who Dwells Within" or Rosemary Ruether's "Gaia and God".

It is a backward looking, regressive pursuit that damns us and our descendants to a ruined world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:02 PM

Yes, well, a thousand years hence there may well be someone like you who doesn't believe Gandhi was a real person... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:10 PM

Anyway, there are always a small number of enlightened beings in the world at any given time. Most of them remain unknown to the vast majority of humanity. Some end up teaching a small group of students. Some end up becoming known merely on a local or regional basis. Some live very quiet lives, and are recognized for what they are by almost no one. Only very occasionally does one end up being the founder of a great religion.

And in that case...he will be ignored, vilified, or in some way attacked by various soreheaded people who are opposed to that religion...or simply...to all religions.

That is the human comedy in all its tawdry display of narrowmindedness.

There are a great many Christs, because a Christ is simply one particular person who has managed to bring forth the highest human potential within him/herself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:12 PM

By the way, you would definitely believe that Ramakrishna was an actual person if you knew anything about him. He lived in India in recent historical times, and there are a couple of surviving photographs of him. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:31 PM

I recall a fairly interesting conversation between a—well, let's call him what he was—a self-appointed debunker, and a Lutheran pastor. I'd known the pastor for years and knew him to be a pretty sharp fellow. He and I had had many fascinating discussions—philosophy mostly, but some religious. We didn't agree on a number of things, but I found him to be a rational debater and quite a wise man. He was of the more liberal or progressive persuasion as far as pastors go, and he would often use material from "Prairie Home Companion" or "Lord of the Rings" as material for his sermons. Cool guy.

Anyway, the debunker was all hung up on the impossibility of the virgin birth and he was essentially attacking the pastor for believing in something so patently ridiculous. The pastor listened to him rant for several minutes, then when the debunker ran out of steam and stood there smirking as he waited for an answer to his devastating assault on what he considered to be one of the major tenets of Christianity (not), the pastor responded thusly:   

"The idea of the virgin birth is merely the way stories were told back in those times—or in any times for that matter. The legends surrounding major religious figures always contain miraculous elements. That's part of the mythology surrounding the religious figure. But if you focus your concentration on the frills, you miss the main message the religious figure is trying to get across. In the case of Jesus, you're allowing yourself to be diverted by gynecological trivia. Jesus is not about whether or not he was born of a virgin. Jesus is about what he was trying to teach us."

I thought that was a helluva good answer. Most religious arguments I've ever heard (or read) focus on the garnish and miss the entrée.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:44 PM

Seems like when the Christians are backed into a corner on the historicity of Jesus Christ, they resort to "It's not who Christ may have been, it's what he represents to those who believe." COP OUT! The Christian religion CLEARLY hinges on the historicity of their savior because if that is proven wrong, then the Christian religion is wrong. It means no atonement and no Second Coming. It means no assured passage into heaven. It means a lot of time and energy wasted in a useless endeavor. It means going back to the drawing board and redefining the entire meaning and structure of the religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:53 PM

Don, you might want to have a look at the book 'The Pagan Christ' by Canadian Tom Harpur. He is an Anglican journalist from Toronto. Former priest, Rhodes scholar, Prof of New Testament at University of Toronto's Theology school.

We seem to mostly agree, except I would not agree that the man now known as Jesus Christ, ever existed.

Little Hawk, I didn't understand you meant the 19th c. Indian mystic, usually referred to in conversations like this as 'Ramakrishna'.

After all, there is 'The Rama'--14th c Jewish mystic, Balarama--Krishna's brother...

So Little Hawk, it seems from what you have written here, that you deeply believe all these mythic characters are actual historic persons? Would I be correct to assume that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:59 PM

Oh, the tedium....

AR282, I am not a Christian. I have no stake whatsoever in defending the Christian religion.

This, however, does not hinge in any way on my opinion that Jesus was probably a real person. It's the same opinion I have about Buddha, Rama, Krishna, and any number of other such figures out of antiquity.

Why are you not railing against Buddhism? Against Hinduism? Against Janeism? Against Zoroastrianism? Against Sikhism? Against Islam?

It's not really fair that all your misplaced sense of persecution should be devoted to just ONE out of the various famous religions and religious figures out there. It sounds, in fact, a bit arbitrary and irrational to me. Give Jesus a break, poor fellow, and set about disproving and/or vilifying some of the others too, why not? I think you are giving Christianity more exclusive focus here than it may deserve...


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:02 PM

"Jesus is not about whether or not he was born of a virgin"

Your religion is valueless if you treat it like a buffet, picking and choosing which of the doctrines you will and won't follow....

Anyone who says differently is just making excuses for the failures of their own religion


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:07 PM

I believe we are all divine cosmic beings, having a human, earthly experience. So I don't need to 'believe in' Christ or Buddha or prehistoric matrilineal societies of goddess worshippers or Gandhi as Christ figures (in drag, perhaps, in the case of belief in a prehistoric Goddess/Earth Mother married off to a God/Sky Father?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:10 PM

So? Who says one has to have any "religion" to believe that Jesus was a real person? Who says that Jesus would want anyone to belong to the Christian religion, as it has evolved in the last 20 centuries? Who needs religion as an excuse to admire someone like Jesus? Who needs any religion at all in order to be spiritual?

And if they do, why harass them for it? If you want people to leave YOU alone, then leave them alone too.

And if the beliefs of those you would term "religious" people do not turn out to be quite as primitive and stupid as you would like them to be in order to fuel your argument...

Tough shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:12 PM

I agree, Sori, you don't have to believe in any such figures. Who said you did?

I also believe we are all divine cosmic beings, having a human, earthly experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:13 PM

. . . and ain't it neat to be entitled to your beliefs? Gotta love it, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:14 PM

Yup. And to hell with those who make it their mission to convert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:17 PM

Exactly, Hawk. I have always wondered why folks have this need to attack Christianity to the exclusion of others. What is it to you what I believe? Attack the excesses of the church, fine. As long you attack the excesses of all such institutions. That is why I find the Minnesota Anonymizer to be so laughable. S/he sets up this bogus predicate just so she can come in later and tell us we are all cosmic beings. Boy, could I have fun with that one. Talk about an easily attacked belief system. But, quite frankly, I don't have a problem with that type of belief system. I don't care where someone says their prayers, or who they say them to, if anyone. What I care about is how they act, and interact with their fellow human beings. All I expect is the same back. It is this type of intolerance that is at the root of most religious conflict

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:20 PM

Well, in my opinion, there is nothing in the world
Beats a '52 Vincent, and a red-headed girl.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:22 PM

Damn, but you have good taste, buddy. Add a properly drawn pint o' the vile, dark stuff and life is perfect.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:23 PM

Muh man!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:24 PM

Right! Muscatel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:28 PM

Not sure what put that bee in your bonnet, Little Hawk. I apologize if it is something I said.

BTW, 'rama' in Hindi simply means 'a deified hero worshiped as an incarnation of Vishnu'. Ramakrishna wasn't the first rama, though in the post-Hindu era, he may well be one of the last.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:33 PM

Well, Sori, even if you convince someone here that Jesus never existed and that Christianity is a trumped-up thing, etc., you'll be busy for the rest of your life workin' on the other 2,000,000,000 Christians kickin' around this ol' globe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:38 PM

All I attempted to do with this thread, BTW, was change the context of the discussion from the Julius Caesar/Jesus thread for the purpose of taking a new track.

I didn't attack anyone. I didn't demean anyone or anyone's religion. I merely stated my beliefs.

I'll leave the job of attacking others to the perpetually paranoid posters of Mudcat, who have found their way to this thread and now seek to piss all over the messenger by making specious claims about my identity or that I am merely posting to attack Christians.

This thread sprang from a related thread about Christianity. That shouldn't be all that difficult to suss out, now should it?

Seems some of you need to chill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:39 PM

"why folks have this need to attack Christianity to the exclusion of others"
Who's excluding others?


"What is it to you what I believe? "

Absolutely nothing at all... but when you want the myths of those beliefs to be taught as science... or you wish to use those beliefs as the basis to make laws that interfere with what I can or cannot do in the privacy of my own home with another consenting adult....   Or when you feel the need to inflict your beliefs on children who do not have the antibodies necessary to fight off such an infection.... Or that you are justified in bilking poor, lonely or ignorant people out of their hard earned money....

Then I have an issue with what you believe


"to believe that Jesus was a real person?"
Believe what you want... it won't make it fact.... I can close my eyes and believe that I can hover all I want.... or that I can walk on water.... It won't make it so....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:41 PM

"Your religion is valueless if you treat it like a buffet, picking and choosing which of the doctrines you will and won't follow...."

True, Clinton. But you have to take into consideration who came up with which doctrine. And why. There are certain aspects of Christianity that most people these days assume are essential to the religion and were from the start. But not so. The whole idea of the virgin birth ascribed to Jesus was what amounted to a piece of "boilerplate." As my pastor friend said, it was a standard part of the story-telling surrounding religious figures at the time, and back then most people understood that these frills were pure hype. But not so today (where did we lose our smarts about this kind of thing?). The earlier texts said that Mary was "young woman," which, later on, got translated—whether as an unintentional mistake or deliberately, who knows?—but later religious leaders, trying to pre-empt the pagan virgin cults that existed at the time, picked it up and ran with it.

Is the virgin birth of Jesus an essential tenet of the Christian religion? No. It undoubtedly is to the fundamentalists, but they're—well, I'll just shut up for now.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:41 PM

Religion has NEVER left us alone!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:41 PM

Yaeh, but you didn't live through the 1960s, Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:47 PM

"I'll leave the job of attacking others to the perpetually paranoid posters of Mudcat, who have found their way to this thread and now seek to piss all over the messenger by making specious claims about my identity or that I am merely posting to attack Christians."

Keriste on a crutch: who do you think is attacking you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:48 PM

Therein lies the problem, Clinton. You lump all Christians together as doing the things you suggest. It ain't so, bro. It is why the basic premise of the thread is bogus. This isn't at all what Matriot Mama Sori says it is. It is an attempt to attack something and cloak in the "intellectual" act s/he is so well known for.

It ain't paranoia when its true.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:49 PM

"The whole idea of the virgin birth ascribed to Jesus was what amounted to a piece of "boilerplate."

There's good evidence that the whole thing is, as you put it, boilerplate.... Now if you wish ot believe such, that's up to you and no one else.... But if you wish to try to claim that your boilerplate is historical fact, then well, you're going to have to provide some pretty compelling evidence....

Currently there isn't a single shred of such evidence....

If you don't need evidence to be a believer, bully for you....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:50 PM

There have been so many Ramas by now, Sori, that to list them all would be a fruitless project. Hell, I even know a couple of ordinary people right now with "Rama" or "Ram" in their name. ;-)

I know a fellow named Ram Das (not the famous one). He's a superb yoga practitioner down in Trinidad. I know another one, a Mr Ram, who runs a gas station near here. I know another one in Toronto. They're all over the place.

It's aggressive, prosyletizing, fanatical people who don't leave other people alone. Some of them are religious, some are atheists, some are cultists, and they all amount to the same thing...a great big pain in the butt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:52 PM

"You lump all Christians together as doing the things you suggest."

One must employ generalities when one is speaking in general....

And well, if you show me where I said that ALL X-tians did any of the things I listed....

Cause I never said that did I???


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:52 PM

We will never be liberated or enlightened or redeemed or saved or whatever it is you seek in being a religious believer--as long as we keep looking to the violent past of religious history for the answer.

There is a whole cosmic universe out there, but it ain't owned and operated by any human invented deities.

Try reading 'Turbulent Mirror' and 'Seven Life Lessons of Chaos' and you might get some sense of the connection between science and spiritual yearning that will propel us forward into the future the majority of humans will experience on this planet, rather than constantly dragging humanity kicking and screaming back into the ruins of the relatively short, historic, and prehistoric past we have been busily screwing up with religion and superstition, for the sole beneift of a handful the religious feudal and corporate masters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:55 PM

But, Clinton, who said I'm a believer?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:55 PM

"There is a whole cosmic universe out there, but it ain't owned and operated by any human invented deities."

Absolutely. Agreed. The deeper levels of many religious teachings make that quite clear too. Ever read anything by Sri Aurobindo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:56 PM

It doesn't really matter to me if you are or aren't Don......


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:00 PM

The list of things that do matter to you, Clinton, seems to be very small... ;-)

(at least when it comes to anything anyone else cares about)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:01 PM

No Little Hawk, I haven't. Only studied comparative myth & folklore. My own interests still lean heavily in the Catholic vein of writers, to science and spirituality, and post-religious freethought.

I'm of the Christ as 'in man' school, not Christ 'was man'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:05 PM

Ah. I see. I've read very little material from the Catholic vein. My interests ran more to the Eastern religions, some mystical stuff about Chrisitianity, and the North American Native religions. I started out the whole process in my teens as a 100% atheist, but that changed after awhile.

You might find Sri Aurobindo interesting. He was a man of absolutely enormous intellect and education. He's as comfortable with science as with spirituality, and he also was a confirmed atheist in his youth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:09 PM

"The list of things that do matter to you, seems to be very small..."
It only seems that way to you LH, because you and your blatherskite are part of what I do not care about.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:10 PM

"Keriste on a crutch: who do you think is attacking you?"

So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you.

Thanks for the suggestion Little Hawk. I'll see what I can find about him in my books.

I don't much care for atheism. Never looked like anything except oppositional defiance disorder to me. Much too rigid an ideology for my tastes.

'The Pagan Christ' is by an Anglican guy, but what the hell. Anglicans are practically Catholic anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:24 PM

Well, no, the reason I said it, Clinton, was not exclusively because of that. No, I said it because of the very large number of times you log onto a thread just for the sheer joy of letting other people know that you don't care about what they care about! ;-)

Raptor has noted this too. In fact, it was he who first drew it to my attention when we were discussing the Clinton Hammond Fan Club T-shirt idea he had awhile back.

He thinks it's funny! He waits with anticipation for the next time you will care enough to bother to let us all know just how much you don't care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:33 PM

Right, so I'm as guilty as the next now for hijacking the thread & making it about personalities contributing.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

One of the best things about 'Seven Life Lessons of Chaos' I mentioned above, is it allows us ordinary folk a way to appreciate chaos theory in lay terms, and helps us realize how chaos is the glue to the interconnectedness of all things, that allows us to go with the flow of events, to unlock creativity through heightened tolerance for ambiguity and ambivalence, to pay attention to subtlety, and finally, to act according to one's internal rhythms with integrity.

That's a LOT to accomplish with one teeny, tiny book. As you read it (if your mind is open, that is) it becomes clear that the ossification of religious ideology is what has been holding us back. We need something genuine and real that gives OUR lives meaning. Religion hasn't been able to deliver on that score for most people on the planet for the better part of two centuries now.

And with all due respect Little Hawk, switching hitters from west to east hasn't made any difference. Ossified religious ideologies are ossified religious ideologies, no matter where they originate from in a post-religious world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:36 PM

Oh, I'm all for new and fresh viewpoints on the subject, Sori. No problem about that. I've read some great stuff lately too, stuff that does not derive from the old religious traditions at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:38 PM

ossified

Damn good word that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:45 PM

The best thing I have read on this thread is that Jesus was meant to be a role model. The same can be said of any philosopher/God/king rolled into one. Everyone needs positive role models. Some need it more than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:45 PM

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:46 PM

In fact, the newer the material is, generally speaking, the better I like it. It hasn't had time yet to ossify. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:53 PM

One of the most common questions that theists ask nontheists is "Why don't you believe in my god?". The answer is that we simply do not see any valid reason for holding such a belief. In order to rationally believe any claim, one must first have credible evidence. There is, however, no credible evidence for the existence of a god. So nontheists don't believe in gods for the same reason that theists don't believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the gods of other religions.

I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than monotheists do. :)

When theists understand why they dismiss all the other possible gods and goddesses, then and only then will they understand why I freely choose not to believe in their god(s)/goddess(es).

A misconception held by many theists is that nonbelievers reject religion because they do not understand it. Typically, nonbelievers understand the dominate religion of their culture quite well, often better than many of the believers. For example, here in the USA, where most religionists are Christians, many nontheists are former Christians who have examined the Christian religion carefully and rejected it as mythical. It is precisely because the former Christian was open-minded enough to question and honestly seek answers that he or she ended up rejecting Christianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:56 PM

Think Salman Rushdie and the Clash version of 'I Fought the Law' to get some idea of how us nontheist freethinkers feel when we try and put a toe in the water to talk with theists, especially these days when even the religious believers are scared of their religious brethren, be they Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh...


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:59 PM

How do you define the word "God", Sori? (I'd like to know.) I don't mean how do you define someone else's version of God, I mean how would YOU define "God"? What would you regard as an accurate definition?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:06 PM

"So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you."

Would you be kind enough to explain how you think I have attacked you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:37 PM

*reading thru hurriedly....and I see this from Sori:

"I do not believe the man Christians call Jesus, or Joshua, was an actual person."

Then this: "I believe we are all divine cosmic beings, having a human, earthly experience."

Mercy, Sori! There IS some evidence that some real person is the source of those stories, whether you believe the metaphysical parts or not..(I don't)...but then you casually state that you DO believe something that there could be no possible evidence for.

I can comprehend how a person can get status and a following, but I cannot, (and I suspect YOU cannot) explain exactly what a "...divine cosmic being...." is. much less how 'it' could have ".. a human, earthly experience."

   Just goes to show that most 'belief' is just a matter of mood, orientation and whim, rather than being based ON any real evidence...


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:42 PM

Well, Bill, "belief", by definition is just that...belief. It is not knowledge. You have to KNOW something to know it, but you can believe anything you want. Believing is not necessarily knowing...but knowing IS believing. ;-)

I tend to believe that Jesus really existed. I don't know it. I think it's rather probable, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:49 PM

hey...what is this, Little Hawk? An agreement? *grin* I 'tend' to believe that there was a historical character, also....but that is as trivial as was Helen of Troy before they found Troy. Now what? It still proves little about the details of the story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:56 PM

As far as "proof" goes, Bill, I very much doubt we are going to find any. Imagine trying to prove things about any person who lived 2,000 years ago! It's not an easy proposition. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:57 PM

Keriste: Try to prove something about the Kennedy assassination just 53 years ago--and that was on National TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:11 PM

What???

You don't believe there is face that could have sailed a thousand ships?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:15 PM

TFTLATS


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:16 PM

I can readily imagine that a pretty face can serve as an excuse to launch a thousand ships....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:18 PM

Good God(s)! The Kennedy assassination was 53 years ago? No wonder I feel old!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:35 PM

It was on Nov 22, 1963. That is not 53 years ago. It's about 42 and a half years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:47 PM

Just checkin' to see who's awake out there . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:48 PM

Whew!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:55 PM

The Bible says that King Cyrus of Persia was the Messiah, or Christ:
Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; (Isaiah 45:1)


FWIW - and am I the only one who thinks the part beginning "I will loose the loins of kings" sounds, um, potentially kinky or lascivious or something?

Haruo
a Christian for a' that


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:58 PM

There's plenty of kinky and lascivious-sounding stuff in the Bible. Just depends in which part, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:09 PM

Haruo - If there ever was a Messiah (or Christ) that walked this earth, Cyrus would be my choice. It was Cyrus that freed the Jews from Babylon but the Jews didn't recognize him as the Messiah either. Sheesh, whats it gonna take? I mean what more could you ask for? He was possible the wisest and most benevolent of any leader at any time.

Which makes me wonder how much of the Jesus myth has been taken from Zoroastrianism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:56 AM

Remember when Zeus turned himself into a Swan and impregnated a virgin woman? Yep it was borrowed by Judaism and passed down to Christianity. Now there are people who claim this myth as actually referring to UFO aliens conducting breeding experiments on man.

Remember when Ossirus was killed and then resurrected piece by piece?
Yep resurection has been borrowed by later faiths as well.

Most successful religions incorporate a prior myth into their new belief system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:08 AM

I understand the purpose of your new thread, Sori. I don't understand your need to create a new identity in order to start it. Who are you in the Julius Caesar thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:21 AM

WHY IS IT? When a post of this type is started, it is by someone
who is perhaps a disbliever? Fear not and be secure in your own belief.
What are you looking for, support or reason for change?


(I read very little of this thread so maybe the tide changed - however, my comment stands)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:21 AM

That's what I thought as well, Sinsull. I am not sure it is the obvious suspect though. Perhaps Joe or one of the clones can look at the IP addresses to see if it is?

If it is I guess the answer to your question is that they were doing spectaculary poory on the other one? But that's only my 2 penn'urth. Sori's arguments on this one do seem a lot more reasoned so even it is the character I have in mind they seem to be faring better here.

I am on a course for the next few days so I may only be popping in and out occasionaly but I will keep my eye on it.

Joe/Clones if this is a question of multiple identities can you do anything about it? Ta.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 12:45 PM

"There IS some evidence that some real person is the source of those stories"

Actually, there's not.... and there's a whopping great SILENCE where there SHOULD be evidence IF such a person had existed....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:15 PM

actually, there IS..."some" means simply that, Clinton. A lot of it is vague, but there are enough sources to indicate the possibility. Like I said, it is irrelevant to the metaphysical issues.

All the stories are a counter example to your SILENCE. I doubt very much that any solid evidence will ever be produced, but we know a lot of historical figures only by some odds & ends of writing by others.....even King Arthur may have had some real origins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:23 PM

Yes... because independant of the MYTH we have outside sources that talk about people that may have helped inspire the creation of King Arthur....

Not so in the Jesus case....

"it is irrelevant to the metaphysical issues"
It is


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:25 PM

If any stories remain about you and are passed down to posterity, Clinton, I could forgive people for refusing to believe that you ever existed too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:32 PM

Whatever LH....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:34 PM

Seems like this is an intentional troll to me.

And Dave the Gnome, I don't know who Sori is, although I can speculate. It's pointless, really, for everyone to be obsessing all over Mudcat, wondering "Who's Sori now?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:18 PM

Donuel wrote, "Remember when Zeus turned himself into a Swan and impregnated a virgin woman? Yep it was borrowed by Judaism..."

Say what? When and where and in what form was this myth borrowed by Judaism? Christianity, I see your point although I disagree that there's a lineal descent, but Judaism? Show me...

Haruo (not from Missouri, but still)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:41 PM

Sure was a long build-up to Jeri's punch line. What an impressive conspiracy--all those postings by so many people. Selfless sacrificing of time and energy--in the service of wit.

But I love it -- "Who's Sori now?"

Classic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:43 PM

I didn't participate on the other thread. I found it to be a turn-off, so started a different thread, starting from a very different point of view.

And why are people being so hostile? I haven't attacked anyone. I am discussing a subject that, while controversial, isn't exactly the stuff of flame wars and troll baiting. It is a subject that interests me. That is why I started the thread.

This was a civil conversation, until some people showed up and tried to derail the thread by casting aspersions on my identity and motives.

Just what the hell is up with that behavior anyway?

If Jeri and Sinsull and Big Mick and Dave the Gnome are so suspicious of my motives, then they don't have to read the thread, do they?

Sori, BTW, is a Korean word for sound, sometimes used to describe the "sound" of traditional songs. Is there a problem using such a handle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 03:02 PM

"people showed up and tried to derail the thread by casting aspersions on my identity and motives"

The standard ploy of the stymied....

That's Mudcat for ya Sori......


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 06 - 03:07 PM

Sori,

'"So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you."

Would you be kind enough to explain how you think I have attacked you?'


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 06 - 03:09 PM

No problem for me, Sori. So...what is your definition of the word "God"? And if you say, "I don't have one, because there is no God", then give me your definition(s) of the concepts of "God" that you find impossible to believe in. In other words, the ones that in your opinion "don't exist". ;-)

That might help us find out what we're actually talking about here, and that's always useful.

To put it another way...what's out there? Is it just rocks and space and mindless energy and stuff like that? Is there some kind of consciousness involved in all that stuff...or is consciousness limited only to biological organisms like human beings and animals and insects? Is there any purpose behind the Universe or is it all just an accident? Do atoms possess consciousness? Is the physical world all there is or is it a reflection of higher non-physical worlds? Are there multiple dimensions of existence? What happens when we die? Does consciousness go on after death? If so, in what faishion?

All these things are worth thinking about, and thinking about them can lead to both scientific and spiritual inquiry, can it not? Does any of that have anything to do with what some people have called "God"?

And remember, there are at least 150 million ideas of what God is. I'd like to know what yours is, if you have one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 06 - 04:30 PM

If you only accidentally ignored Judaism, Islam, Hinduim, Wiccanism, Buddhism, various indigenous and imported pagan religions to compare Christianity, and Christianity alone to long-dead, ancient religions and didn't actually mean to bait Christians, you have my heartfelt apology. If you were trolling, then you don't.

The pun was perfectly horrible, if I do say so myself. I'm honored that you took such a notice of my stated belief that you were trolling, but I wouldn't want the thread to be about distasteful personal issues. I don't believe your identity or motives are that important compared to this fascinating subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 04:33 PM

"Wiccanism"

Can we keep money grubbing fads out of the discussion please....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:30 PM

Hm.

Anyone care to address:

1. What did Zeus-followers think about Zeus 2,000 years past his popping up into culture?

2. How come folks just can't resist wondering about and discussing what can only be experienced for oneself internally and personally?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:42 PM

"what can only be experienced for oneself internally and personally?"

An experience that studies seem to show is almost exactly like a grand mal seizure or other maladies of brain chemistry....


http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-ca&field-author=Ramachandran%2C%20V.%20S./701-6574794-1488344


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:53 PM

You mean like what happens to hockey fans when the home team scores a goal, Clinton? I agree. It's shocking. It indicates a severe mental imbalance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:00 PM

I've never understood people cheering for coloured shirts with meaningless numbers on them as if they had something to do with the 'accomplishments' of those coloured shirts....


Every time I hear some dork with his face painted, honking his horn all the way down my street shouting "We Won!! We Won!!", my question has always been "Who's we, FKER?.... cause I looked and I didn't see your loud drunken ass out on that ice/field/arena/whatever......"

But that's a whole different thread I guess.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:07 PM

Just to set the record straight, Zeus turned himself into a swan and impregnated Leda (who happened to have been married to Polydeuces at the time, so presummably she was not a virgin). The offspring of this odd coupling was Helen of Troy. This is the face that, according to Goethe, "launched a thousand ships and burned the topless towers of Ilium (Troy)". It seems that Helen was married to Menelaus when she ran off with Paris, son of Priam and prince of Troy. Menelaus gathered his friends (including such stalwarts as Agamemnon, Achilles, and the rest of the local Elks Club), got a fleet together (1,000 ships), and sailed to Troy to whup Paris's ass and get Helen back. The ten year battle with all its ins and outs is what we now know as the Trojan War. Wikipedia's "Cliff's Notes").

I don't think Judaic mythology picked up on any of this, because any Judaic myth of any importance at all is found in the Old Testament.

I recall a comic book that a friend of mine loaned me that was all about the Trojan War. Whoever the cartoonist was depicted the lovely Helen (taking into consideration her odd lineage) as looking a bit like Daisy Duck.

Now, back to our regular broadcast.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:10 PM

Zeus was also a character in one of the Die Hard movies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:21 PM

Samuel L. Jackson played "Zeus Carver" in Die Hard 3 "With a Vengeance"


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Amos
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Don:

It was not Goethe's Faustus, but Christopher Marlowe's, who cried out to Helen about her ship-launching and tower-burning powers, and asked for a kiss.

Viz, in Scne 13:

"Faustus:

Was this the face that launched a thousand ships?
And burnt the topless towers of Ilium?
Sweet Helen, make me immortal with a kiss.
Her lips suck forth my soul; see where it flies.
Come, Helen, come give me my soul again.
Here will I dwell, for heaven be in these lips,
And all is dross that is not Helena"

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:33 PM

Thanks, Amos. I stand corrected.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:38 PM

It just occurred to me:   the way the cartoonist depicted Helen in the comic book, if she couldn't bestow kisses, she could at least give someone a peck.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:41 PM

Would she bill them for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:50 PM

Maybe, if she were at the beak of her attractiveness. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:22 PM

Ohhh.... Ewe guies quack me yup...


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:53 PM

Well, I probably should have ducked the whole thing, but. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:56 PM

The truth lies within The Evil Bible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:05 PM

Thanks for crapping up yet another thread with your ATTEMPTS at 'humour'


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Amos
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:33 PM

Personally, I'd be a little chicken to push the issue very hard; consider what happened to Paris!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:46 PM

Well, as Humpy Gocart said in that movie, "We'll always have Paris." Didn't anybody tell him?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:48 PM

I love your attitude toward drunken sports fans, Clinton, if I may say so... ;-) Couldn't agree more.

And now we return to our scheduled program.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:00 AM

Nice one, Jeri:-) Who's sori now, ideed!

I don't know if you read what I said, Sori. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying you you did NOT look like the other poster. Your attempt to turn that into a personal insult to you makes me think I was wrong in doing so.

I was not going to post it on this thread as I have said it enough on the other. NO ONE KNOWS. There is no valid evidene for or against the existence of Jesus. It is all supposition. Make your own mind up based on the vague 'proof' provided but don't try and pass it off as the truth either way.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:01 AM

Forgot to add - Who says Zeus is mythic anyway?

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:23 AM

You know, the people posting to this thread are incredibly rude.

First, posts complaining about me being a monster. Where on earth is that coming from, please?

Then, posts complaining about my motives for posting. Posts claiming I was "baiting Christians". Come on! Are you people so stupid you can't participate in an intelligent conversation?

Finally, posts from a bunch of idle men, apparently, who think butting into someone else's conversation to entertain us all with their dazzling wit, is what--something to be admired?

Well, it isn't. It is rude.

Just because this is a web forum doesn't mean manners don't apply to YOU.

Grow up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:26 AM

"So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you."

Would you be kind enough to explain how you think I have attacked you?"


In between your rants at various people, perhaps you would answer the above. It's the third request.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:37 AM

And if you could read, you would see I answered it long ago. It was your "KEEEERIST!" comment I found rude, inappropriate, and uncalled for.

I, like many other people here, are fed up with rude and obnoxious posters like you and the others I mentioned, who ruin every single thread they stumble into, by wrecking it with their boorish behavior. Attacks on other posters for no reason, except sport. Mocking and open hostility towards the opinions of others. Childish name calling. Hijacking threads RUDELY by starting up with the infantile "humor" posts which only scream "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"

Grow up will you, and stop trying to make everything into a pissing contest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:41 AM

And really, your rude attempts to DEMAND I answer to you, really takes the cake. And only serves to prove that you have no manners and decency whatsoever. Your demands that I respond tit for tat to you had nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread, and therefore required no response.

We don't all stoop to your level of tit for tat, pissing on threads behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:00 AM

Oh. Thank you so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:13 AM

It sure seems that Sori is the one making this into a pissing contest. Just another loud mouth ranter on Mudcat. Evil too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:20 AM

Look again at the third post to this thread, to see who started the pissing contest.

But I'm done with this thread. It is pointless to try and carry on a conversation with people who post only to slap other people down, and demonize them by calling them 'monsters' and 'evil', just for speaking their mind when their thread gets rudely interrrupted by people with no interest whatsoever in the subject matter being discussed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:31 AM

There is an interesting thing I just came across:

"Before the abolition of monarchies, Zeus was protector of the king and his family."

from
here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:36 AM

On occasion the thought has crossed my mind: What if our GOD is in reality the gods of mythology and legend? We have all read of their exploits, their vindictive irrationality, their petty intrigues. Ya think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:07 PM

If you beleive in an omnipotent god, you are acknowledging exactly that, Ebbie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:30 PM

I've gotta admit that the Old Testament god resembles the crowd on Mount Olympus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:15 PM

Well, sorry, Sori, if you got a bit tweaked at a touch of levity further upstream, but let's face it, the subject of this thread has been cussed and discussed so many times here on Mudcat—and other places—that large numbers of people, including myself, get bored spitless with it. Been there, done that, again and again and again and yet again. Right now there is another thread (at least one) extant on essentially the same subject. There have been dozens in the past and there will be an infinite number in the future, no doubt.

And these discussions never go anywhere because they're about faith and belief. Early on in the discussion, more than likely in the first post, you start trampling on someone's cherished beliefs and since they can't really defend them—any more than you can support your position—it ceases to be a discussion and turns into a pissing contest. You're not going to change anyone's mind. Okay, if you like the exercise of arguing about the subject, then go right ahead. But don't think it's ever actually going to accomplish anything.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:32 PM

Sori, I can't speak for everyone here, but I responded (not rudely) and you didn't address either point I raised. Are you only responding to people who are rude? Isn't that kind of a diminishing-returns, self-fulfilling-prophecy sort of thing?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:34 PM

"large numbers of people, including myself, get bored spitless with it"
So the, don't post to it.... Easy peasy right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:38 PM

"Keriste" was what Peace wrote, twice I think (the first time actually "Keriste on a crutch", which appears to be the one taken offensively. Sori turned up the volume to "KEEEERIST!"

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:44 PM

I'll say it again, one more time.

Don't like the subject? Don't open the thread.

Don't like the poster? Skip over their posts, and make no comment to or about them.

No matter how worn out or controversial a thread or a personality, good manners and netiquette is very clear about what your response should be:

Nothing. EVER.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:47 PM

I didn't attack Sori at all. If I said something offensive I am sorry. IMO, this thread with the ranting from the thread starter has become a waste of time. However, I hope the rest of you can keep on despite the crud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:20 PM

And needless to say, I disagree with your opinion.

However, I will accept the apology in the spirit it is given.

As to my 'ranting'. How about you go back and read my contributions and at least make a good faith attempt to compare what you refer to as rants (and I would say were attempts to stave off the begrudgers and belittlers attacking me personally, in an effort to save the thread), to my on-topic contributions here.

Then, compare and weigh that against the contributions by:

Big Mick
Dead Horse
Peace
Sinsull
Dave the Gnome
Jeri
Ron Davies

and the Mudcat 'humorists' who, as Clinton noted, found it necessary to interrupt the thread rudely with their clever ripostes

Big Pink Lad
Amos
Don Firth
Thomas the Rhymer

The vast majority of the above posters ONLY contributions to this thread concerned me--either my personal identity, or my personal motives.

A few of them did manage to contribute something to the thread, but then joined the lemmings attacking me personally.

Anyone discern a pattern here?

No?

Then you are part of the problem that derailed and hijacked this thread by making it personal, behaving rudely and obnoxiously, and by opening a thread you never had any interest in to begin with, just to engage in the very tired, very outworn Mudcat bloodsport of ripping on individuals and pissing on their contributions.

WYSIWYG, you never once addressed a post to me personally. You addressed your post to "Anyone..."

Haruo, you are looking like lemming in the end as well.

Now, if I haven't managed to put this thread out of it's misery, I'm sure the rest of you will see to it that this ends as it always does in this forum.

With the departure of the person being attacked, you all swarm like locusts to begin flaming the person, yet again, in hopes of bringing them back to keep playing your destructive little game.

So have it. I expect nothing less of you. You all claim how great one another is, how wonderful a human being each other is, what a wonderful world Mudcat is.

Then you turn around on a dime and behave viciously like this.

In other words, you are all more than a bit two faced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:25 PM

I wouldn't call their 'ripostes' clever in the least....

"you are all more than a bit two faced"
That's people for ya eh.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:30 PM

Yep, it sure is. Which is why most of the good folks keep leaving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:33 PM

So, Sori, you did read my post.... but you chose not to address the points I raised.

OK.... you only address posts addressed to you....? Did you by any chance make some assumption about my motives in making the post I did?

~Susan
WYSIWYG:What You See Is What You Get


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:37 PM

As I said in my first post. This thread had nothing at all to do with your subject. It was a troll, designed to elicit a response so you could write posts such as the one above. You are the classic troll. You got the response you wanted, so you could then sit in judgement on all the ignorant savages (tongue in cheek, in case you don't recognize it).

It doesn't matter if you use an anonymizer or change your name from Sori, to Peace Matriot or any of the dozens you use. You cannot hide. Your style is so evident as to make it very easy to see you.

I believe I said in the first post I made that the premise isn't a bad one for discussion. Why don't you get back to it? Oh, I forgot. You really could care less for the discussion.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:39 PM

In posting your thoughts on 'Jesus as mythic god like Zeus' you set no parameters for what constitutes acceptable comment. Which is perfectly fine as it's not your place to do so. You asked no question, either, so what did you really expect? Most all the people who have taken time out of their lives to add a comment are regulars here and actually include humour to temper the occasionally harsh words from others. As our good friend, and your ally, Clinton H. often says, it's just a virtual reality and you ought not let it bend you out of shape. Moreover, you might want to be a little more careful about slagging people off because, as many have found out the hard way, shit sticks and you'll give people an unshakeable perception of yourself as something you may not be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:58 PM

I'm not responsible for other people's delusions about the identity and motives of people who post here.

As you point out so deftly, shit does indeed sticks. It also stinks to high heaven, so you might want to have a peek at those who can't seem to keep their hands out of and off the shit to begin with, before blaming the recipient of the shit flinging games, BigPinkLad.

Yes, it is just a virtual reality. And as 'the regulars here' keep demonstrating so ably, their virutal reality sucks so bad, they have to stoop to playing in shit and attacking others to get any entertainment value out of it.

Bad behavior is bad behavior, whether by delusional clones bearing big grudges against Mudcat ghosts and imaginary bogeymen, or posters like you who, when called on your bad behavior, choose to flame the person who called you out for it, rather than admit to it and apologize as any decent person would do in normal conversation.

Now, who do you suppose that makes look worse to a disinterested, neutral party who might come stumbling in to the place, hmmmm?

It is clear a whole lot of you don't like me making you look so bad. But rather than point the finger at me, how about you examine your own behavior instead?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:05 PM

Have you tried Mydol?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:22 PM

Oh, now that's a mature response in a 'I know you are, but what am I' sort of way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:28 PM

Well, I gave what I thought was a mature response and you shat on it. I can't win this can I? Tell you what ... how about I let you have the last word? ;o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:32 PM

I have to agree with Big Mick. The very nature of this thread, right from the first post, is to poke buttons. Anybody with half a brain knows that trying to demean someone else's religious beliefs is going to almost immediate result in escalating animosity. I contributed two or three serious posts to the discussion, endeavoring to keep it on some kind of civilized level (the more fool me!) and kept my cool despite sniping from the peanut gallery. When an opportunity arose to inject a bit of humor in what was turning out to be a slagging contest, I did, and a couple others joined in.

For those stiff-lipped persons who don't think that bit of by-play was at all amusing, puns take a certain verbal skill and adeptness with words, and I've noted that most people who consider the pun the lowest form of humor do so because they're lousy at it.

The whole subject of this and another very recent thread on essentially the same subject is to try to get up the noses of those who might have some belief invested in Christianity. There's a lot of trouble being stirred up in the world these days by people attacking each others' religions. There's an expression for that. It's called religious intolerance. And there's a word for the general category that includes religious intolerance:   bigotry.

Religious discussions between believers and non-believers, and those of varying beliefs can be quite interesting and productive of ideas, especially when participants in the discussion can come away with new ideas to consider.

But at the rate this thread is going, I don't see much of that happening here. But then, I get the impression that that was not necessarily the original intention.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Hint hint
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:32 PM

From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:20 AM

Look again at the third post to this thread, to see who started the pissing contest.

But I'm done with this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:00 PM

Don,

Because something is a hot button issue, doesn't mean a thread originator is merely intent upon pushing other peoples' buttons by wishing to discuss it from their perspective.

There are actually people who have demonstrated an interest here in Mudcat in discussing this subject from a position other than a Christian believer/sympathizer perspective in a rational, reasonable fashion.

The shit flingers in this thread are not among them.

What is plain as day is, the Christian believers and sympathisers who are regularly shit stirrers and flingers in this forum, simply can't resist flinging the shit at those who wish to discuss the subject from that very perspective.

And don't tell me there is no right to free speech in Max's forum. That is just bogus.

Some people are free to speak here, others not.

The difference?

The opinions and beliefs of the editors.

How do they control how the thread goes?

See post #3 to this thread.

Because of the Mudcat editor expressing a derogatory opinion about the thread originator, the subject matter has been censored de facto, and the thread derailed.

THAT is the power the Mudcat editors hold here.

I, like many others now, will continue to point that out whenever I see it happen to me or anyone else here.

Why?

Because it is so unfair, unjust, and inequitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:09 PM

Azizi just said this on the 'Balancing Mudcat' thread:

"The problem within the Mudcat community that I'm most concerned about is not that there are different groups of people and that some people within different circles don't get along with others. As far as I'm concerned, such is life. However, my overarching concern is that-in my opinion, there have been times when moderators have not been fair, and consistent in their deletion of individual's threads or posts. dividual's posts and threads. What I want within Mudcat is fair, just, and equitable treatment of folks without regard to who they are,how long they have been on Mudcat, or other indices."

Amen to that.

Exactly what I'm talking about happened here in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:11 PM

Okay, back to the original discussion.

My considered opinion:

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

Jesus was really Julius Caesar. Jesus was really Zeus. Jesus was really Horus. Jesus was really Josephus. Jesus was really Paul. Jesus was really William Shatner. Jesus was really (fill in blank                      ). Jesus was really anybody but Jesus.

Cogent arguments, those.

I recall in an English Lit. class I took way back when:   subject, Shakespeare's plays. The question came up about those who insist that Shakespeare didn't really write the plays that where attributed to him. Various people claimed that they were really written by Ben Jonson, Christopher Marlowe, the Earl of Derby, the Earl of Rutland, the Earl of Southampton, the Earl of Essex, Sir Walter Raleigh, Francis Bacon, and a whole raft of other "usual suspects" including Queen Elizabeth I. After spending a fair amount of class time chewing over the possibilities and in the end, by applying Occam's Razor, we concluded that it was probably Willliam Shakespeare who wrote the plays of William Shakespeare. One of the students asked, "Why do people feel it's necessary to question what's patently obvious? What's to be gained?"

"Well," said the Prof, "it gives them something to do and keeps them off the streets."

In the meantime, Sori, you seem to be accusing only the Christians (and I do not number myself among them, surprise, surprise!) of being the "shit-stirrers" around here. That's not my perception of it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:19 PM

Don, you are in the wrong thread, then.

It is clear you want to discuss whether or not there is an historic Jesus.

I don't.

I want to discuss the impacts of religious believers/sympathisers' beliefs upon the rest of us, and what it means for the future.

I am discussing it in the context of the Christian religion, because I am currently being misruled by Christians in a country where they should not have the right to impose their mythical beliefs upon my or anyone else's reality.

The above are two totally different conversations, hence the need for two threads.

Clearly, the Christians & their sympathisers here in Mudcat, as is also true in our political world right now, do not want to see non-believers have a public forum for the discussion of what is important to us.

Hence, the derailing and hijacking of this thread.

You are behaving every bit as well as the Christian right wing of the Republican party in this thread.

Why?

You won't leave non-believers alone for long enough to hold a conversation.

Rather, you claim that we are bigots. You claim we are intolerant. All because we won't discuss the issue in YOUR terms, rather than our own.

So who is truly being intolerant here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:23 PM

In the course of reading Emily Post and other good-manners mavens, one discovers that it is dreadfully rude to respond rudely to others' rudeness. The well bred person is expected to sniff inaudibly and depart the premises. Farewell, my deah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:31 PM

It's pretty tough to sniff inaudibly, when one is holding one's nose from the stench.

My deahly departed. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:56 PM

It appears that sometimes it is difficult to ascertain whence the stench cometh. ; backatcha


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:11 PM

Big Mick - When you post stuff like, " this is but another piece of troll bait from the Minnesota Monster trying to wind folks up," I start to lose respect for you.

The quote above leads any member to the Locator to find out who you are trying to 'finger'. Looks like you are telling us that it is Lepus Rex. The only way you know that is because you have access to privileged information. In most situations that is called an abuse of power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:08 PM

GROAN.

Well, we are all in for it now.

Isn't it in a permathread some where that NO ONE should ever challenge Big Mick's delusions?

There will be no end to the puffed-uppery, breast beating, and the bloviated egotistical attacks upon any who question Hizzoner's delusion that The MN Ghost challenges the very threads of the fabric of this sacred community?

And that only he, and he alone, be chivalrous enough to rise to defend the Mudcat Realm and the Good People Posting There, to protect them from the Doom and Gloom Monster of the North?

Why, it is his destiny as Mudcat Bard!

Hail! Hail! Hail! to the Mudcat Bard (ye plebes kneel here). Bardic Defender of All that Is Vile Among Wimmens and Wolves from MN!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:14 PM

I notice, Sori, that you didn't start posting here on Mudcat until around the end of May, this year. That is, of course, assuming that you haven't changed your identity after having posted here for some time before that. To say what you have said about me in your post just above indicates that you know nothing about me or what I have been posting consistently for some time on these threads regarding the religious Right and their association with the political Right. I am hardly a "sympathizer" of the religious Right.

One of the things I have tried to point out on many of these threads is that until liberals and progressives, all too many of whom tend to be dedicated to one issue (environment or health care or peace or civil rights or maintenance of a strong social safety net—all causes which I enthusiastically endorse), as if their issue was the only one of importance, had damned well better get their act together, dismount from their particular hobby horses for a few moments, and start cooperating with each other if any of their causes are ever to succeed.

This is something the Right figured out decades ago, after Barry Goldwater lost his run for the presidency. They raised their "Big Tent" and invited others of their general persuasion to put aside their own personal interests at least temporarily and cooperate, so that the Right could gain political power and then bring all their wishes into fruition. A major faction that entered that Big Tent was a very powerful group indeed:   religious conservatives. Indeed they've been one of the most important and influential factions in putting the Right into power. It worked, as we now see.

Where you start verging on bigotry is when you lump all Christians together, as if Christians in this country are a monolithic force. They most emphatically are not.

One of the biggest splits on the Left lies between secular liberals and religious liberals. Secular liberals (of which you, apparently, are one) are all too often very hostile toward toward anyone religious, drawing no distictions between religious conservatives and religious liberals. If you have any interest at all in seeing a more progressive government in this country, you should be aware that there are large numbers of religious liberals who are sick and tired of the religious Right claiming to speak for all Christians, as if they, and only they, have a direct pipeline to the mind of God. Many are starting to speak out, and they can be a very powerful force. The Rev. Jim Wallis, retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong, and a large number of other liberal religious leaders are writing books and articles, traveling the country giving speeches and lectures, and appearing on radio and television talk shows. They're speaking out, trying to inform people that religious conservatives, with their concentration on things like anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage don't have a lock on moral values. Christian moral values include most of the same things the secular liberals advocate, such as good stewardship of the environment, peace, and help for those who cannot help themselves.

If secular liberals are going to have any chance of regaining political power in this country and stop the current spread of theocracy (not to mention something that looks and awful lot like fascism), they'd better develop a brain cell or two, and join forces with religious liberals and make common cause. Religious liberals don't want this country to turn into a theocracy any more than you do, and it's going to take everything we've got to stop it.

The tack you're taking in this thread is not helping your cause. Or mine.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:52 PM

Here, put out those lighters before you start a fire!!! Get up, there is no need to prostrate yourselves.

Why am I reminded of the DeGaulle line when someone said "Mon Dieu, we are winning by a landslide." He is purported to have responded with something like, "Of course, but you may call me Mr. President".

Dianavan, I am sorry that is the way you see it, but I call it like I see it. I have seen this poster abuse folks for years. I have seen this poster use multiple identities to get arguments and strife going. I have seen this poster hijack any thread that was counter to what s/he thought it ought to be. I have seen this poster, when asked reasonably not to, just abuse folks that were simply trying to have a discussion that involved sentiments s/he didn't like.

I will say for the record that this isn't Lepus Rex. Lepus will drop me a line from time to time. I respect him, though I disagree with many of his positions. But he is a long time contributor with valid points of view. While he often is passionate in his criticism, he is not a vile person, or a patronizing person.

I have respected your posts, dianavan, and your points of view. But this person has crossed the line too many times for me to totally ignore. What really bothers this poster is that I don't argue with him/her. I simply point out each time I see it when the post is a troll.

I think the discussion of Jesus as mythic God probably could be pretty interesting. Why not get back to it? Because this Sori excuse of a troll doesn't really want you to, that's why.

But I have said my piece. And I will continue to watch for this person's troll bait. Sorry it bothers you, I really am.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:17 PM

And did Max appoint you the guardian of this forum, to point out this person to the world whenever you find them posting to a thread?

Or did you appoint yourself to use your power and authority as a Mudcat editor to check the IP & let everyone know when this person you personally hate so much appears here?

Why the need to point someone out? Can't posters here be allowed to decide for themselves who is a troll and who isn't, without the Mudcat editors telling them?

Do you have so little judgment (or is it so much contempt?) for your fellow Mudcatters, that you feel you MUST act as Mudcat patriarch, and be both judge and executioner of this one person so few people even have on their radar? Even people who post here often?

Are you saying this person you are attempting to expose here the equivalent of Martin Gibson?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:26 PM

How about providing the forum with some actual proof this bogeyman even exists?

Or providing some credible evidence (hint: "style" doesn't constitute legitimate proof) that every post/thread you claim to be originating from this bogeyman, be verifiable with proof that is transparent and available for all to see? Instead of these attacks from the shadows you and the clones keep making with your "secret Mudcat editor" claims.

Why should people take your word for it? Because you swing a big club here?

Well, duh. The people you've clubbed with it over the years certainly know that.

Then, as soon as it becomes obvious you have overstepped the bounds of reasonableness, you offer up an insincere mea culpa to get back in everyone's good graces.

But that is the behavior of a bully, not a person of integrity.

And your inner bully ain't so secret to a lot of folks around here.

Of course, all your fans will rush in now, and say it ain't so. But those who have had run-ins with your inner bully know what's what.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:33 PM

BTW, it certainly sounds (the multiple identity parts anyway) as if that could be A LOT of people who post at Mudcat as members, log off, then back in as someone different, then log off, back in as themselves, then log off and in again as someone different again.

So how is this person any different than brucie/Peace? You didn't "expose" him and his identity. Or anyone else's for that matter.

So again, what gives with this person you claim is so awful? So hurtful and abusive?

And again, why not let and let live, and let everyone decide for themselves what sort of person they are conversing with, instead of you dictating to them what they SHOULD think about a poster, just because YOU hate them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:39 PM

And how can you say "for the record" this is or isn't Lepus Rex or anyone else, for that matter?

Again, your "secret Mudcat editor" privlege.

So that allows you to spy on the people who post here? That allows you to give out private information of people who post on this website?

Now that REALLY sucks.

If you are willing to do that to your bogeyman AND Lepus Rex so openly, what are doing to others in secret?

And the other clones--what sort of private information about posters that you have data mining access do you all swap with each other and god knows who else?

And we are supposed to believe you when you say you aren't abusing your authority as a Mudcat editor?

Unless it's for a good cause, like witch burnings of people you personally dislike?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:53 AM

OK, Mig Mick, I take it back. I guess you weren't pointing to Lepus Rex. That means I don't know who you are talking about but I don't much like the way this guest is obsessing (even though I think they may have a point).

I'm outa here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 06 - 04:12 AM

Thanks, Don. What you say makes a lot of sense.
-Joe Offer, sick of being lumped with the fundamentalists-


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 May 06 - 07:36 AM

I second Joe's thanks.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Another
Date: 31 May 06 - 07:38 AM

If Lepus Rex were here, I doubt he would put the same smiley face spin on his interactions that you are getting from Big Mick.

There is a lof of abuse of power and authority going on around here, and you aren't the first notice or say so.

so dianavan, I don't think you owe anyone an apology, least of all Big Mick, who has a real chip on his shoulder in general, and an unhealthy obsession with unmasking the identity of someone(s) he claims "to know who they are" because of their writing style.

Which, when taken at face value, sounds pretty damn ridiculous. Perhaps because it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:02 AM

Should not most of the Mudcat threads, not all but most, be taken with "a grain of salt?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:08 AM

All gods are mythical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:40 AM

"an unhealthy obsession with unmasking the identity of someone(s) he claims "to know who they are"

One of the biggest issues with Mudcat is the overwelming number of members who think they know-it-all.... and that they have something to prove or someone to impress.... All groups of nerds are like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 12:58 PM

BTW, it certainly sounds (the multiple identity parts anyway) as if that could be A LOT of people who post at Mudcat as members, log off, then back in as someone different, then log off, back in as themselves, then log off and in again as someone different again.


Like YOU for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:10 PM

ME!?!

Fuck that.... I couldn't be bothered going through all that BS to 'hide' my ID....

Don'ts gots nothin' to hide......

Or are you still railing on at BM?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:10 PM

Or you. It's what happens when guests can post, isn't it.!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:59 PM

I do not give a rat's ass for whether Sori is Lepus Rex or Monty Python or actually Jesus (or maybe Zeus) deciding he doesn't want to be Messiah any more and just retire to Florida. A lot of folks (or at least one), feeling he/she/it/they need to remain anonymous by posting as GUEST, do seem to think it's a world-shaking issue for some reason. Can you please take this out into the alley where it belongs so we can get back to the discussion?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:06 PM

As to my 'ranting'. How about you go back and read my contributions and at least make a good faith attempt to compare what you refer to as rants (and I would say were attempts to stave off the begrudgers and belittlers attacking me personally, in an effort to save the thread), to my on-topic contributions here.

Then, compare and weigh that against the contributions by:

Big Mick
Dead Horse
Peace
Sinsull
Dave the Gnome
Jeri
Ron Davies


Much as I would thank you for putting me amongst such illustrious company I must take exeption.

I have trawled back through the postings and list bellow the total sum of my contributions.

That's what I thought as well, Sinsull. I am not sure it is the obvious suspect though. Perhaps Joe or one of the clones can look at the IP addresses to see if it is?

If it is I guess the answer to your question is that they were doing spectaculary poory on the other one? But that's only my 2 penn'urth. Sori's arguments on this one do seem a lot more reasoned so even it is the character I have in mind they seem to be faring better here.

I am on a course for the next few days so I may only be popping in and out occasionaly but I will keep my eye on it.

Joe/Clones if this is a question of multiple identities can you do anything about it? Ta.

DtG

Nice one, Jeri:-) Who's sori now, ideed!

I don't know if you read what I said, Sori. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying you you did NOT look like the other poster. Your attempt to turn that into a personal insult to you makes me think I was wrong in doing so.

I was not going to post it on this thread as I have said it enough on the other. NO ONE KNOWS. There is no valid evidene for or against the existence of Jesus. It is all supposition. Make your own mind up based on the vague 'proof' provided but don't try and pass it off as the truth either way.

Cheers

DtG

Forgot to add - Who says Zeus is mythic anyway?

:D (tG)


Now, I must say that my knowledge of the language is far from perfect but nowhere in the above posts do I glean a slightest bit of bemoaning, begrudging or personaly attacking. Unless of course you are refering to another thread, dear Sori. You are not suggesting that I attacked you on that thread are you? How can that be? You have already stated you have not contributed to that thread.

Until now, I have always been more than fair with you and given you the benefit of the doubt. Are you now telling me that I have been wrong in my assesment?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Jeri
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:36 PM

This goes back ages, before Mick, before Mudcat. Just one snapshot in Usenet time, that will subtly hint at not only who the current troll is, but who was doing all that nasty stuff in the Nic Jones threads. It's why I believe I know who it is who starts threads attempting to goad people, then focuses on writing volumes in multiple posts to attack the people, because the thread was NEVER INTENDED to be about anything else. From the shadows of anonymity, she provokes, then calls people who react 'bullies' and tries to lump them together in some fashion so they look like a conspiracy. When you've seen what she does, it doesn't take much to recognize the tactic. Have some fun, click on 'view profile' at the above link and read some of her other messages and see if you agree. Read some of mine, and see if you think I've learned anything. Ask her how many times Max blocked her.

Understand that there IS a history here. Do what you like, believe what you need to, but know that there is something behind the 'Minnesota' thing.

As for speculation about who logs out to be nasty, I think people who are nasty with their names aren't the fearful, timid ones who are afraid for people to know what they're really like. Joe outed one, and there's another who was - I believe - consistently manipulated by Marting Gibson until he disappeared and was replaced by a GUEST wyo was quite a good writer. I think Clinton and Lepus Rex don't have any real need to go anon. I think Mick is Mick and isn't afraid to get into it with people but does so with a sense of honor. Look to those who like to argue, but are easily upset and aren't too tightly wrapped to begin with, or perhaps have professional images to protect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:43 PM

What she said.

And I have never logged out to make comments. What you see is what you get.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 31 May 06 - 04:50 PM

None of my business but I just stepped into the icky usenet waters to read that stuff, and poked around. But the thread linked to above is after the fact, where "everybody (except Abby Sales) hates the MN monster" is well documented.

But the problem seems to have originated in a thread called "Dylan shafted Nic Jones," in a post where she responded to a post by one Dave Webber. That, unfortunately, I cannot locate. She doesn't come across as a monster in the "Nic Jones: A Belated Introduction" thread linked, or the others I could find. Just on the defense.

If you're sure she now is always on the prowl to raise Cain, well then fine, but I hope she isn't paying a price seven years later for ill-tempered usenet behavior and pissing off the crowd. I can only think of two people around here (InOBU and Jerry Rasmussen) who have never flown off the handle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Jeri
Date: 31 May 06 - 05:11 PM

Heric, I think the thread might have been Bob Dylan was wrong! (Long post.. damn near an essay), but even I can't remember. I don't hate anybody. I despise the act of deliberately tormenting people, but I'll leave hatred to those who do so, and not let it make me as small as they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 06 - 05:44 PM

Obviously there's a fairly extensive history here that I know nothing about, so I'll just butt out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 May 06 - 06:10 PM

I thought about including you on the short list of people whom I haven't seen fly off the handle, Jeri, but I would have to strecth my limited memory banks to ensure accuracy on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 31 May 06 - 06:21 PM

>>I'll leave the job of attacking others to the perpetually paranoid posters of Mudcat, who have found their way to this thread and now seek to piss all over the messenger by making specious claims about my identity or that I am merely posting to attack Christians.<<

Come on, now. You saw what happened on the other thread. You must have thought it was me being "mouthy" as one individual put it. No, you don't have to do anything but insist Jesus was a myth and state your case and ask them for theirs and all you'll get is an earful of defensive, accusatory garbage for your troubles because that is all they have to offer for their worthy position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 31 May 06 - 06:33 PM

>>this thread has been cussed and discussed so many times here on Mudcat—and other places—that large numbers of people, including myself, get bored spitless with it.<<

Thread too boring? Then leave. Really simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 07:46 PM

The Jesus myth AGAIN?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:45 PM

Oh my god. Leave a thread for 24 hours, and look what happens.

This is quite the demonstration of ghost boxing.

I'm actually quite amused at this little game the Mudcat clones are playing.

Of course, they couldn't possibly be wrong about my identity, could they?

Well, no one here will ever know, because that is just for the Mudcat editors to know.

So special that Mick & Jeri share this dirty little secret obsession.

I feel so honored to play such a prominent part in their fantasies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:48 PM

When a historical demigod never dies, neither does the controversy surrounding him. And quit your rubbin! It's fun to discuss no matter how much people say they hate it. They love it and flock to these threads like a cat 5 hurricane heading for the Gulf Coast. And this thread is proof so just admit you like to debate it cuz if you didn't, you wouldn't be here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:01 PM

In the early 70's National Lampoon ran a few episodes of "Son-O-God" comics. It portrayed Jesus of Nazareth as a superhero with a secret identity. It was pretty hilarious. The backstory to the publication was that it was put out by right wing Protestants who were concerned with incursions by the Roman Catholics. Just when it looked like the United States would be a pawn of the Vatican, along came Son-O-God to save the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:08 PM

I remember Son-O-God comix in NL. The Anti-Christ was a rather papal-looking individual. I remember one panel where Son-O-God is walking across a river (literally walking across it, of course) and these hardhat workers are harrassing him and one is yelling, "Eccc, homo!" I thought that was pretty funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:11 AM

Whoa, you mean everyone agrees that I'm actually me this time? No fucking way. :)

So… Is this really happening again? The same old witch hunt bullshit? All the same people? Again?

Mick: What the fuck? I thought you were done with this nonsense. But here you are, on the third post, calling someone who may or may not be the possibly imaginary person you like think s/he may be… Anyways, calling this person a "monster" and a "troll?" Yours was the first inflammatory post to this thread, man. You attacked Sori right from the start, and guaranteed that this thread would not be a discussion about Christian mythology, but instead be about "Janet Ryan" and what a damaging, disruptive presence "she" is here. But you started the "nastiness." You started the personal attacks. You were the disruption.

And, I mean, I hate to repeat myself once the fuck again, but here I go:

You don't know that GUEST, Sori is your "Janet Ryan/WAMSO/Matriot." You don't know that this GUEST is from Minnesota. You don't have access to posters' IP addresses. You've admitted before that you have no real proof, just a hunch. In other words, you don't know shit. So why do you continue to obsess? Why, with no evidence whatsoever, and with no compelling reason to do so, do you continue to insist on trying to "unmask" this person?

And, yeah, repeating, once again: Yes, I imagine that Sori's first post was intended to elicit a response. This is how one starts a discussion, no? If it had been Bobert's or katlaughing's name on the first post to this thread, instead of a GUEST's, would you've called it "troll bait?" Please, get over your personal issue with anon. GUESTS, dude. You really are a decent guy, and not only does this shit makes you look like a jerkoff, but it hurts the forum as a whole. :)

Jeri: Wow, that's some pretty caustic stuff you linked to, there. A couple of… mildly snarky comments in a Usenet discussion half a decade ago? Are you really such a delicate little thing, Jeri, that you still bear the emotional scars of "Janet Ryan's" comments after all these years?

GUEST, Sori: Dammit, why did you have to choose a Korean name? Once the ghost of harpgirl re-re-re-reads my entire posting history, she'll note my frequently stated fondness for Korean food, and the jig will, once again, be up. Nice going!

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:52 AM

Nice to see you too.

You check in once in a great while, throw a few f bombs, and we should all just bow to your wisdom.

The facts are, hotshit, that this whole thread was a trolling maneuver. I do, in fact, know exactly who started it. I don't care if you like it. I remember when there was this nice little group of you who took sport in trying to humiliate posters here. And the usenet stuff from a while ago is germane, given that this crap keeps going on.

It goes like this. Your buddy gets to shit in the sandbox, then shifts the conversation and acts injured, then you come riding in and say "What the fuck? Why are you messing with us." But folks here are not as stupid as you say all think they are.   And they tire of this crap. You ask why I go after her? I don't while she is being civil and a good poster. I have often said there is much I would happily discuss and probably agree on. But when that arrogant, condescending, and bully attitude comes out, I say something.

By the way, nice to see you again.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:03 PM

By the way, just in case anyone missed it.

If one should think that I am wrong about this, consider a couple of things.

First, Sori has yet to deny what I have said.

Second, when I referenced Lepus, she immediately pointed out that Lepus wouldn't put such a happy face on it. If this were a new poster, how would that have occurred given that she wouldn't know Lepus.

Third, isn't it odd that Lepus just shows up in a timely manner. I suggest that it is because JR contacted him. And then he acts as though he doesn't know who Sori is.

Conclusion. I am right on the mark, but I knew that anyway.

Out of this one. See ya next time.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:07 PM

Oh, now you're mad. All defensive an' shit. I guess I can understand that. But this wasn't a personal attack on you, but a critique of your behaviour. Like I said, you're a good guy. You've just got this… thing with anonymous GUESTs. So, please, calm down, look past the "f bombs," and consider the points that I made. :)

So, let's discuss your claims, in order:

1. You KNOW: OK, Mick, perhaps you do, in your mind, "know," who Sori is. I once "knew" that a girlfriend was cheating on me, and told her so. I was wrong, and an asshole for believing as I did, but still, I just "knew" it.

So, sure, you "know" it. But the more important question, once again, is this: "Why the fuck do you care?"

2. My Gang: OK, I know you said you were out of this discussion, but, please, refresh my memory: Who was in this group, and what were we doing to humiliate posters?

3. Why You Do It: You wrote: "I don't (go after her) while she is being civil and a good poster." I've re-read Sori's first post to this thread several times, and I can't find anything that, even by your standards, would warrant an attack. Nothing uncivil. Nothing condescending, or arrogant. No bullying. So what was it? Slightly controversial subject matter? Huh? Huh?!

4. Whaaaaaa?!: It's true. Sori is without a doubt "Janet Ryan," and, like all 3,000,000+ people in the 16th largest metropolitan area in the nation, we know each other. I confess. Mick, you make Poirot look like Barney Fife. Here's how it all went down:

Last night, I get this urgent call from Jan. She's in tears: Mick is on the warpath again!

So I say, "Don't you worry, baby. We'll fix him! Meet me at King's Korean, up in Fridley, in one hour. We'll sing some karaoke, we'll eat some bibim naengmyon some galbi. Whatever you want, baby. And then… we'll hatch an anti-Mick plot so devious, you could put pyjamas on it and call it a ninja!"

Well, you get the idea. Madness, Mick. Pure madness. Take another break, will ya?

Nice to "see" you, as well! :)

---Hotshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:24 PM

Thanks, Sori, for raising an interesting angle for discussion. My experience has been that Mudcat is seldom an effective medium for religion discussions, but it was a good opening post.

Thanks, Mick, for clearing that up.

Thanks, Lepus, for the best-organized and funniest post I've seen in quite some time.

Thanks, you three and everyone else, for choosing Mudcat for your posting pleasure. Hope to meet y'alls I ain't yet met, and see the rest of y'alls soon.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM

What is with posters who complain about how they hate topics like this and yet can't stay off the thread? Why are people like this Mick person so preoccupied with Sori's ID? Get off the thread if you don't want to talk to this person.

This is a good thread and a perfectly legit topic and I resent the assholes who have to DELIBERATELY come here to screw it up and get everybody off topic. BUTT OUT!

With that said, Sori is right. Jesus Christ is a myth and nothing but a myth. Then again the myth is pretty profound except dopes ruin it with useless arguments and beliefs of Christ's historicity. Can't have it both ways, folks. If he was real, his story is not and cannot be an allegory. If his story is allegorical then he was by necessity non-historical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:38 PM

"If he was real, his story is not and cannot be an allegory. If his story is allegorical then he was by necessity non-historical."

'Zactly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:49 PM

So what's your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:18 PM

"If he was real, his story is not and cannot be an allegory. If his story is allegorical then he was by necessity non-historical."

I don't understand that at all. An allegory is the representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form. Who says that the characters, figures or events cannot be historical? If I was to write a story placing the main Mudcat protagonists in the Borgia courts of Renaissance Italy it would be allegorical. Does that make the Borgia courts non-historical? I think not.

If you want to use pseudo-intellectual linguistic logic please make it at least plausible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:26 PM

False logic. Your Mudcatters and Borgia courts would be elements of an allegory, not real.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM

Still can't figure it. Probably me being stupid. If, as the dictionary suggests, allegory is the representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form. then why can those characters, figures or events not be real ones? Genuinely interested.

Perhaps my last one was a bad example. If I were to relate the events of the last few days, with John Prescott playing croquet while he should have been running the country, then I could well be allegorising the general impression of laisse-faire in the government. It is both allegogical and historic. Is it not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:57 PM

Here's the OED definition, which may (or may not) help:

allegory n Narrative description of a subject under guise of another having similarity to it.

The allegory is the description, not the subject. I think what was meant was that JC is either

a) a made-up story (therefore not real), or
b) a real bloke (therefore not a made-up story)

Of course I can't know what exactly was meant. I'm only human alas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:33 PM

This is hilarious! Or maybe really scary. I'm not sure which way to react.

Nice to meet you Lepus. Thanks for explaining where I've been for the last 24 hours or so. BTW, where is Fridley?

Anyone else here using Firefox w/Privoxy? Apparently, using that browser config REALLY pisses some clones off!

Of course, it is evil of me to use that browser like that! Because it can only mean one thing. I am not who I say I am. Which is true. My name isn't Sori, that is just the handle I picked to post here.

But if you think I'm telling anyone here my name now? I don't think so.

Big Mick, I am not who you claim I am. I have said that in a number of posts, yet you continue to, umm, what exactly is that you are doing again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:44 PM

Sorry Jeri, I didn't mean to neglect you in my post.

I 'd have verbally thrashed you to within an inch of your life too, but I didn't have a tape measure handy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

Sori, I don't think your identity is a big a deal, and I didn't expect you to get so upset. I'm happy to drop it.

I think Jesus was probably a real person, but I think the stories have probably picked up mythical qualities. I think it's likely Mohammed, Moses, Buddha, and other figures had some mythical bits added to their stories as well. What's impossible is telling what really happened -- whether a story is completely true, completely fiction, or what true event occurred to later be embellished. I think probably everyone here must know someone who isn't that long gone, who has started to have a little extra something added to their life history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 12:13 AM

"Sori" has been around here long enough to know that these kind of comments are going to piss off the resident Christian fanatics. Maybe he just forgot. But he never misses a chance to prove his elders to be idiots! Did I read somewhere that arrogance is a sign of intelligence? He isn't related to Attila the Hun for nothing. hahahahah


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:42 AM

The allegory is the description, not the subject.

Exactly - That is why I cannot see why an allegory cannot contain historic events. The two are not related. Although the allegory may be made up - Which under the OED definition it may not always be - The story can contain real people. Therefore the false logic is -

a) a made-up story (therefore not real), or
b) a real bloke (therefore not a made-up story)


An allegory can be a made up story about a real bloke or even a real event used to describe or explain something else. I am sure that the bible stories are very allegorical - But that does not preclude them from containing some element of truth. Anyone who says they are either completely true or completely false can never realy prove that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM

"Did I read somewhere that arrogance is a sign of intelligence? "

George W. Bush is arrogant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:38 AM

And therefore intelligent. Ah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:57 AM

On a good day George Bush couldn't find his arse with both hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:11 AM

Anyone who says they are either completely true or completely false can never realy prove that

Not true! For instance, one can prove that an ark built to the dimensions given in the Noah story cannot hold all the animals on the earth. One can prove Jonah could not have lived in a whale. Unless you mean one cannot prove/disprove these things to the satisfaction of everybody; that's the tricky bit ... when you throw an omnipotent being into the mix all things are possible, even the impossible. But then that unmoving refusal to recognize what amounts to a defeat of mythical belief is what the conjuror depends upon.

Works for other myths as well as those in the bible (and better, our mythmakers today are assisted by incomprehensible technology and the average-joe's poor understanding of what science and logic really are). I wasn't at Mons so how can I say with 100% certainty the angel didn't appear? I've never been to Roswell. I've never poked my fingers into Jesus's wounds.

Happy Friday by the way. (I can't prove it's Friday. Just a concensus arrived at between me and others on the planet ;O)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:26 AM

There's a nickle's worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans. If you put a nickle on a table, a Democrat will steal it from you. A Republican will kill you for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:33 AM

In the United States anyone can be President.


































That's the problem.

George Carlin


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 01:48 PM

The only way to insert a historical character into a fictional story and be able to prove this to be the case is that a real and verifiable story with that person in it must also exist or his own records must be located and verified. When you don't have that, you don't have a case for saying the person is historical even if the story is obviously not. Since we have no verifiable biography or history of Jesus Christ other than the fictional story, it is great folly and totally dishonest to assert then that the character is real but the story false. The very idea is absurd. Until a verifiable story pops up for comparison, both persona and story must be considered fictional. Jesus Christ is fictional--period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 01:55 PM

Dead-end argument. To people who believe in Jesus, your lack of acceptance means nothing. Basically, in their world He exists. He doesn't in yours. It's no big deal that they cannot prove to you that He lived. Neither can you prove He didn't. No point having an argument no one can win. As you have proven on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:12 PM

An argument [philosophically speaking] is a reason advanced for or against a proposition. It could transpire between two opposing factions where neither concedes to the points presented by the other and is therefore viewed as unwon. But there may well be third party observers who dismiss one side in favour of the other in which case there would indeed be a winner and a loser. Or in perpetual argument, as in this topic, two winners and two losers.

I think advancement lies in common ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:39 PM

"Did not!"
"Did too!"
"Did not!"
"Did too!"

And nobody so far has presented an acceptable reason or believable evidence for either position. After several hundred posts on a couple of threads, continuing with this "Did not! Did too!" stuff gets a bit silly, don't you think?

There are intelligent, rational people on both sides of the issue. The horse is dead. Continuing to flog it is not going to make it stand up and whinny, much less win the Derby.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:42 PM

"nobody so far has presented an acceptable reason or believable evidence for either position"

Bull... just for one, the total lack of ANY contemporary account from people who were writing about exactly what Jesus was supposed to be on about is very telling in it's silence....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:52 PM

There are contemporary accounts, but nobody wants to believe them. Maybe they're authentic, maybe not. Still up in the air.

Over and out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:56 PM

"There are contemporary accounts"

Ya... whatever....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 04:38 PM

Some folks have a skewed view of how proof works. It goes like this:

When you make the claim, you have the burden of proof.

Hence, the claim that Jesus Christ was historical must be proven. You don't ask the con side to prove it because one does not prove the negative. This prevents the pro side from invalidly trying to turn the tables to "prove he didn't." That is not where the burden of proof lies so no one has to prove he didn't.

Nor can you try to prove your claim by saying, "You can't prove anyone existed. Prove Lincoln existed." Okay, I will. We have his photos, we have his words, his handwriting, many accounts by those who knew him. His eldest son, Robert, lived well into the 20th century. If we had any such proof as this with Jesus Christ, we'd have no reason to question his historicity. The burden of proof really doesn't lie on the person claiming Lincoln existed but on the one who claims he didn't. We won't find any photos of Christ, of course, but we should at least have a plethora of accounts contemporary with Jesus Christ had he actually existed. We have nothing. Even the spurious Josephus quote and the misinterpreted Tacitus quote were not contemporary to Jesus Christ.

Even so, compelling evidence has been brought forth that presents a very strong case that Jesus Christ was not historical and even this has yet to be satifactorily rebutted.

You have to prove Jesus Christ was historical and if you fail, then your case is considered wrong or false until you can prove it. None of this "he's real to those that believe." That's as silly as saying the tooth fairy is real to those who believe. So what? Doesn't make them right. It does make them gullible though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 04:50 PM

Got nothing to prove to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:57 PM

Just about everything that can be said about the whole matter has been said. Repeating it doesn't make it more credible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:16 PM

Instead of disputing the claims of Christianity, I'm thinking I should found my own sect or denomination of the religion. The Non-historic Jesus sect. Call it "The Universal Church of the Soully Allegorical Jesus"

and we shall be called "non-hissies."

and our slogan will be: "I Like the Christ in You."

and our belief system officially encapsulated in the phrase: "Jesus died for your sins, figuratively speaking. You still have to pay for everything."

and this is our cheer: "Nag Nag Nag Hammadi/When the soul departs, we eat the body" (well, we did say we like the Christ in you)

and our eschatology officially expressed as: "Trust Us On This One--He's a No-Show."

Bumpstickers include: "Not Even Paul Believed That!"

"In case of Rupture, my john will be occupied."

"Careful--Psychopath Onboard."

And here's some of our hilarious top-notch humor:

Q: What did Jesus call Judas's kiss?

A: A-pucker lips now.

But don't fall over yet:

Q: What did the non-hissie say to Jesus?

A: Get real!

What a knee-slapper!

I believe I could take over the Christian edifice from the inside out in this manner. And then only the heretics will still profess the historical abomination. Ha ha!

And on the billboard out front: "Cuz you folks will believe anything." Amen!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:40 PM

Well, that's one way to make yourself a prophet. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:17 AM

Just repeating what has been said above by me and others before. There is no proof in either camp. Proof as in evidence that would stand up in court. Using the court analogy there is plenty of 'expert witness' testimony but that asks for a supposition. Whether that type of evidence would be enough to convict or aquit the defendants of existing is another matter!

Clinton. 'Whatever' is not a particularly good argument. Don made a valid point. Why be so dismissive?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:33 AM

"Don made a valid point."

No, actually he didn't.... not according to most historians worth their salt.....

There are NO contemporary accounts of this so-called Jesus.... everything that we have written about him was written well after his death....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:58 AM

Looks like a dead-end discussion to me. I think of bible scholarship as an oxymoron.

But if you want some careful analysis, check out books by Bart Ehrman.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:35 AM

Far better than 'whatever, Clinton:-) So why did not say that in the first place?

Is it true though? Alleged contemporary and nearly contemporary accounts of Jesus include Tertullian, Josephus, and Celsus. They can of course never be verified but that does not mean they have to be fake. If he was the trouble maker detailed in the books may the existing religious leaders not have wanted to ensure he did not get popular? How better than to stop the 'popular press' of the time reporting on him? It has been known to happen even now - why not then? Maybe that is why only scrapy details survived?

Personaly I think it likely that the figure of Jesus, whoever he was, was merged with the previous pagan gods and stories for political ends by the early church. I also think it likely that they used both existing myths and existing characters rather than make something up from scratch. The Christian churches track record for 'borrowing' other peoples beliefs is positively verifible. Why should they have chosen to make things up rather than do as they have always done since?

I have to agree of course. No-one can say whether he did realy exist. But to say categoricaly that he did not is a pretty strong conclusion to make on the scant evidence. I am pretty sure he would not have been the miracle working peace hippy of popular belief but on the evidence available I would say it is more likely that the man did exist. If not the legend!

We will probably never agree but reasoned argument is far better than derision don't you think?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:05 PM

"So why did not say that in the first place?"

Cause it's been said over and over and over in this thread.... and still they cling to "Yes there is" with NO evidence to back it up....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:07 PM

>>There is no proof in either camp. Proof as in evidence that would stand up in court. Using the court analogy there is plenty of 'expert witness' testimony but that asks for a supposition. Whether that type of evidence would be enough to convict or aquit the defendants of existing is another matter!<<

But in a court of law only one side is required to prove something. One side must prove guilt, for example. The other side does not have to prove innocence. If guilt is not proven, innocence is presumed.

Likewise, the historicity of Jesus Christ must be proven. Those who question it are not required to prove non-historicity. If the side that favors historicity fails to prove their case, non-historicity is likewise presumed.

And like the defense, the non-historists have a right to defend against statements made by the prosecution or the historists, in this case. You may offer evidence but they have the right to rebut it. If they fail to do so, you win. So far, two primary pieces have been offered and both rebutted convincingly.

That's pretty much where it stands as of now and has stood for some time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

"No-one can say whether he did realy exist. But to say categoricaly that he did not is a pretty strong conclusion to make on the scant evidence."

See post from From: 282RA
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 04:38 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM

>>But if you want some careful analysis, check out books by Bart Ehrman.<<

I've read a very provocative and wonderfully insightful book called "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" (Oxford University Press, 1993) by Bart D. Ehrman (Assoc. prof. of Religious Studies at U of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) and he has a highly interesting take on what early Christianity was like before the NT and the orthodoxy was established.

We know in the early days of this religion, there were hundreds of competing views about who and what Jesus Christ was. Some groups didn't even regard Jesus and Christ as the same being. Some said a divine Christ came to inhabit a human Jesus. Others said Jesus Christ was a man chosen by god. Others said he was the son of god and not really begotten on earth 2000 years ago but that he "pre-existed" his earthly incarnation. All sorts of views that competed for supremacy--for orthodoxy. What we call orthodox today was just another competing view at one time with no more claim to orthodoxy than any other group.

Ehrman believes that not only is the modern orthodoxy not orthodox in the 2nd and 3rd centuries but that the NT itself does not express an orthodox view except where it has been provably corrupted by scribes of the orthodox persuasion, which occurred from the 2nd to the 4th centuries.

The original writings that comprise the canon were Adoptionist. Adoptionists held that Jesus was an ordinary man who was, at some point, declared by god to be His son. There was no miraculous birth with angels, guiding stars or pregnant virgins.   Ehrman points out that even the Adoptionist creed appears to have changed over time. The oldest form of Adoptionism held that Jesus was not appointed or declared the son of god until his resurrection. A later form took over that held that Jesus was adopted by God at his baptism.

For instance, in Mark 1:1, we read, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of God." Ehrman mentions eight important early texts that omit the phrase "son of god." Scholars try to account for the omission by saying it was a mistake on the part of the scribes but Ehrman finds it odd that such a mistake would appear immediately in a text rather than somewhere in the middle and that every scribe who copied a Markan gospel text independently of the others managed to make the same mistake over and over again.
Then we read of the baptism of Jesus by John:

"And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, 'Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.'" (Mk 1:10-11)

Here was originally an Adoptionist moment. For them, Jesus became son of god at that moment. He was not the son of god before then. First of all, the wording of the passage indicates that ONLY Jesus saw the heavens part and dove descend and the voice of god speak to him. No one else present saw or heard anything. This would be odd for Jesus to require this personal epiphany were he already the actual son of god especially since his miraculous birth would have made everyone around him aware of his special status. Nevertheless, orthodox Christians of today can say there is no declaration of god that Jesus was only appointed his son at that moment. IOW, Jesus still could have been preexistent in this baptism account and it is therefore not Adoptionist.

Luke 3:22 also recounts the incident but the earliest Lukan manuscripts do not have god saying, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." Rather, god says, "Thou art my beloved Son; today I have begotten thee." This is an important distinction.

By saying "today I have begotten thee" we see that god adopted Jesus as his son at that moment and that Jesus was not an actual semi-divine son of god from birth and was not pre-existent. He was an ordinary man who was adopted by god at his baptism. So even Mark's account of the baptism was corrupted by the orthodoxy so the preexistence of Jesus could not be questioned here.

The baptism incident, too central to Christianity to be deleted, had to be changed to choke off the Adoptionist claims which were apparently quite widespread at that time (remember that two Roman Church bishops--Irenaeus and Papias--did not believe Jesus died on the cross but lived in Asia to age 50). Strangely, though, the early Lukan MSS did not remove the Adoptionist language from 3:22 even though it blatantly contradicted Luke's claim in 1:35 where he wrote:

"And the angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.'"

So we see why the early Lukan MSS were changed, they contradicted the orthodox claim put forth in 1:35--namely that Jesus was son of god from birth. Ehrman believes 3:22 to be an original verse of text since it would be highly questionable that scribes educated in the later orthodox school would have added Adoptionist Christology.
The Lukan MSS, which include Acts, must have been hugely revised because Acts is strewn with Adoptionist statements--some of them extremely blatant. In Acts 10:37-38, Jesus is declared to be adopted by god at his baptism:

"the word which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power..."

We find traces of the older Adoptionist creed that Jesus was adopted at his resurrection in Acts 2:36 spoken by Peter:

"Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

In 5:30-31, we find a more blatant example:

"The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Ehrman feels blatant creeds as this were not deleted because they represented an older Adoptionist Christology no longer practiced and so did not present a problem to the anti-Adoptionist group pushing to become the orthodoxy.

The Adoptionist creed is an older Christology than Paul's since he addresses the Adoptionists in his opening lines in Romans:

"...the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead..."(Rom 1:3-4)

Once again, we run across Jesus being designated as Son of God at his resurrection. Paul was forced to address the issue of Adoptionism and Jesus being descended from David because these were the main groups he would preach to in Rome (assuming he ever really went there--he wasn't in Rome when he wrote Romans and there is no record he ever went there much less died there).

The Transfiguration, if Spong is correct, was a post-resurrection event recast as a pre-resurrection one. The very nature of the episode indicates that Jesus was already dead when it occurred and that Peter would have no reason to want to build a tabernacle to Jesus right then and there were Jesus still alive--Luke even includes a bit about Peter saying this in his confusion.

If Spong is right--and I think he is--then this may have been another original Adoptionist moment that came at the resurrection since while he was on the mount with Peter, John and James, a "bright cloud" comes over them and a voice declares Jesus to be his son and that the others listen to him. A strange order since they were already following him. This then may have originally been the moment Jesus first appeared after his death. Again, the Transfiguration episode may have been so central to orthodox Christology that the incident was not deleted but changed from post- to pre-resurrection status.

Why not just write entirely new gospels instead of revising old Adoptionist literature? Same reason. These writings were THE Christian writings of that period and for the orthodoxy to be regarded as legitimate they would have to gradually revise the original documents rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water by creating entirely new ones.

This indicates that the miraculous birth movement came up through the Adoptionist church and, by degrees, took it over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:57 PM

Mmmmm - Looks very much like a hung jury in the court of law example! There is evidence - but some believe it and others don't. Pretty much like black holes realy. There is plenty of evidence that they should exist, some would even say must exist, but no substantiated proof. I think until Mr Wells lends us his clever machine we will never 'know'.

I still believe that the balance of evidence is in favour of there being an historic JC. I still think it is no great step of 'faith' but a reasonable supposition that the powers that were at the time used an historic rather than fictional character on which to base their messiah. I think that although the Jesus myth was created as an analogy their is no reason to assume the character himself is a figment of someones imagination.

If someone chooses to hold a differing viewpoint then that is fine by me. As long as they don't try to force it on me and as long as I am not derided for my own views. Remember of course that most, if not all, of 'history' is based on someones viewpoint. And when we get two people chronacling events those viewpoints rarely co-incide.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:21 PM

Final "PROOF" of Black Holes came down th epike as long ago as 2002....

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/blackhole_milkyway_021016.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:24 PM

>>Mmmmm - Looks very much like a hung jury in the court of law example! There is evidence - but some believe it and others don't. Pretty much like black holes realy. There is plenty of evidence that they should exist, some would even say must exist, but no substantiated proof. I think until Mr Wells lends us his clever machine we will never 'know'.<<

Once again, this fails to address the basic premise of having a court of law: one side must prove something through the presenting of evidence while the other must defend against that evidence or offer counter-evidence. We're not worried about hung juries right now. We're concerned about the fact that the historists have not yet presented a viable case. Until that happens, it is never going to go before a jury. It's going to be thrown out at the hearing stage for lack of evidence.

>>I still believe that the balance of evidence is in favour of there being an historic JC.<<

And we're asking you to present that evidence to us for our study but, other than a couple of very weak and questionable examples, you have not complied.

>>I still think it is no great step of 'faith' but a reasonable supposition that the powers that were at the time used an historic rather than fictional character on which to base their messiah.<<

Powers? Who were these powers?

>>I think that although the Jesus myth was created as an analogy their is no reason to assume the character himself is a figment of someones imagination.<<

You have backasswards. Because the story is clearly a myth, we have no reason to assume the main character of such a story is real when he doesn't turn up in any other non-mythical accounts.

>>If someone chooses to hold a differing viewpoint then that is fine by me. As long as they don't try to force it on me and as long as I am not derided for my own views.<<

I get that a lot from believers even though they seem to practice that least of anybody.

>>Remember of course that most, if not all, of 'history' is based on someones viewpoint. And when we get two people chronacling events those viewpoints rarely co-incide.<<

That doesn't invalidate evidence. Two historians may not agree on how Pearl Harbor was planned and carried out or why but the documents concerning the attacks, the eyewitness accounts, the statements of people involved in the decision-making, etc. once set down are preserved and there for anyone to peruse. That evidence doesn't change, no two people may agree on the implications of the evidence but the evidence itself is objective and there for study and analysis. Two historians may not agree about exactly how or why Pearl Harbor happened but both agree it happened and when it happened and who the major players were.

It that evidence in the historist case of Jesus that is entirely lacking. There is no history to write for Jesus simply because we have no historical account. If we did, we wouldn't nned to construct a history for Jesus because we already have one. But all we have here is mythology and that is not evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:45 PM

Proof schmoof. It no longer matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM

282RA - are you AR282? You both have an unusual way of quoting, between >> << marks, when there is absolutely no need. What I said was actual only about 2 posts up! Nothing to do with the argument and doesn't invalidate your points in any way. Just wondering why you would do it?

I've already said fine - you are entitled to your point of view. I am entitled to mine. Both our views are as valid as anyone elses. I would not dream of depricating your standpoint. All I ask is that for one minute you imaginne that someone else may be right. I am not saying that I am or that you are. Just that eother of us MAY be.

Clinton. I got as far as The observations rule out nearly all other possible explanations for the tremendous amount of matter. The 'nearly all' statement stopped me in my tracks. If there can be another explanation then it is still supposition. Just like this argument. Sorry.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:11 PM

"Both our views are as valid as anyone elses."

All views, all opinions are NOT created equal.....

Ask me about art.... you'll see.... my opinion ain't worth a hill of dingleberrys.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:12 PM

"If there can be another explanation then it is still supposition"

You go ahead and cling to that 0.0001% if you need to....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:25 PM

Some people can't stand ambiguity. It drives them crazy and they have to have everything nailed down or they start to feel insecure. This is the mind-set of the fundamentalist, who can't reach a decision without consulting the Bible, as if it were the Boy Scout manual.

Interestingly enough, one finds the same mind-set in the hard-charging atheist. If anyone else does believe in God, or Jesus, or Zoroaster, they seem to feel compelled to attack that person's beliefs. Repeatedly. Incessantly. Ad infinitum. Ad nauseum. It's a manifestation of their insecurity. It's just as persistent--and for the same reason--as the evangelist who insists on saving your soul and just won't leave you alone.

The essence of religious belief is mystery. Not knowing for sure. Some folks just can't handle that.

That's why this thread has gone on for so long, simply repeating the same things over and over again.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:40 PM

Yep, Don. I have lurked in this thread and found myself thinking that there is not a lot of difference between religious fundamentalist, and atheist fundamentalists. Both are intolerant of others views and seem to feel that it is necessary.

BTW,282, you made an incorrect statement above when you said, "You have to prove Jesus Christ was historical and if you fail, then your case is considered wrong or false.....". Nope, it is only considered unproven. Also, you continually draw analogies to a court of law. This is a bogus, pseudo intellectual analogy. The discussion centers around beliefs. Beliefs do not have a burden of proof. They are simply beliefs. Hence, given that proofs are not necessary, the only thing you have is your beliefs.

You need to lighten up a bit, 282. You come off shrieky and strident. It is enough to simply not buy into the Jesus story. I can respect that and your reasons for it. All the rest just makes you sound as though you have this unhealthy need to pound anyone who disagrees with you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM

Sorry Clinton - Just seen the latest Dr Who and Black Holes DO exist after all:-) Your views about art are certainly as valid as mine btw!

Court of law is an interesting thing. We are talking about the UK / USA model here I guess? Did you know that in France the theory is that should be no real difference between defence and prosecution? The object of the excercise is to find the truth. If both sides agree that there is no proof either way then they move to a balance of probabilities model.

I do not know if there is any such proof that Jesus did exist, although why anyone thinks I must, or even want to, prove it is beyond me. What I do know is that there are an awful lot of things that we cannot prove. Just because we cannot prove them does not mean they do not exist.

But then again I am an optomist. Perhaps I should be more cynical in my views. I don't think it would make me a better or happier person though.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:10 PM

Let's contrast the historicity of a being called Jesus with the Egyptian pyramids.

The pyramids are old but are indisputably still here, they are physical, available for viewing; they have been researched and conjectured about and theories abound concerning their function(s), their reason(s) for being, the way they were built. In recent years there has been more agreement on all this but there is still plenty of unknown territory in the subject.

One of these is tangible, the other relies on man's vagaries, subject to the ups and downs of civilizations and the histories kept-or not kept. One of them is old but the other is much older.

Why are we surprised that proof is lacking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:11 PM

>>Some people can't stand ambiguity.<<

What's wrong with that? Especially where it need not exist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:18 PM

>>BTW,282, you made an incorrect statement above when you said, "You have to prove Jesus Christ was historical and if you fail, then your case is considered wrong or false.....". Nope, it is only considered unproven.<<

Not in a court of law. We were comparing arguing about the historicity of Jesus Christ to presenting evidence in court. In court, you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. If the guilt is not proven, the innocence is then presumed. Likewise, if the historic Jesus is not proven, this personage must then be considered non-historic. You can suspend judgment if you wish but in a court of law, a judgment must be rendered one way or another. If we impose this same standard on the Jesus argument, then he must be presumed to be non-historical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM

282RA, you prove my point. Thank you.

You just can't let it go.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM

All I know is,

(A) nobody answered my question and
(B) I'm glad Jesus is a deity and resurrection-compatible, because
(C) Mudcat has surely beaten him (the subject) to death-- many times over!

Which mkaes me wonder (again) why
(A) nobody answered my question.

But now I think I know the answer-- it's because, "Who has the biggest penis?" is too easily and objectively answered, instead!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM

Jonah was swallowed by a sea ship, not a whale. Where do you not see this?
Jesus walked near the Mississippi in Minnesota and it's true he was not the one hung on the cross. That's why Peter denied him. It wasn't him but an imposer so Jesus could make his get-away.

Hail! Hail! Hail! to the Mudcat Bard (ye plebes kneel here). Bardic Defender of All that Is Vile Among Wimmens and Wolves from MN!!!
I resemble that Wimmens from MN remark although, 'vile' I'm at it-these may be my myths or not....!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:35 PM

"We were comparing arguing about the historicity of Jesus Christ to presenting evidence in court."

Isn't there a current court case on this very subject??


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:44 PM

AR282/282AR. Why do you state that in court you are innocent until proven guity? It is well known that is true in a lot of cases. But not in all. It seems to be one of those many false premises that you accuse others of.

BTW - if your previous posts are anything to go by you will now accuse me of changing the subject. I wish to point out in advance thet the above is in response to your statement.

I am quite happy to go on but is there any real point? You have your view. I have mine. Never the twain shall meet. I don't consider your views any better or worse than mine or anyone elses either. I would argue with a fundemental Christian just as vehemently. Just don't assume that you are better than me or your views better than mine please.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:29 PM

Atheism is not necessarilly a fundamentalist belief since it posits the idea that religion in itself is a corruptible entity. I think this fact has been proven categorically and historically.

Keeping an open mind that the Earth is flat is intellectually dishonest because it opposes what we know to be scienfically accurate. Creationism and other pseudo-scientific "religious" constructs fall into this category.

The existence of Jesus can't be proven. But the myth is related to others such as Isis and Mithras that share similar stories.

"Deism" might make some sense in that it doesn't require a religious text to support it. Most of the founding Fathers of the Constitution such as Jefferson and Franklyn were Deists. Jefferson's famous razor blade to the New Testament serves as an example.

"Deism" can't be proved or disproved either.

The motive for atheism is that religiosity is possibly a form of corruptible madness. Blood has been historically spilt over it.

That said, the myth of Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount IMHO is a good thing in that is holds a behavioral model that makes sense for the survival of our species. If we regard it as a myth (in the Joseph Campbell sense) and not a historical fact, it makes for a better world. The consistency of this myth, however, can not be found in the bible that we know of today. It is a schizophrenic text, badly written by hack scribes in the beginning and better educated scribes later who were fostering their personal agendas.

I believe that the value of religion is only as good as the morality of the people who practice it. I see very little of "morality" in religion as it is being practiced by in large today. I believe as do many Atheists that morality comes first and then if religion supports
it than that's one thing. Religion was probably invented to codify morality so that laws could prevail in a society. The problem has been that many laws are not sacrosanct and can be immoral or unjust.

I have no problem with people professing their religious belief as long as it doesn't promulgate violence, sado-masochism, cruelty or brutality. If it makes people get through the night to believe that the moon is of green cheese, why not?

But an intellectual discussion on religion gets into the area of metaphysics and philosophy which has no empirical basis whatever. The value of such a discussion may be that it helps a society define ethical behavior.

I do have a problem though with those who claim that god told them to go to war.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:34 PM

Just spotted a whopping hole AR/RA. You say When you make the claim, you have the burden of proof. Hence, the claim that Jesus Christ was historical must be proven.

This whole thread (and your other one) was started with the claim that Jesus was not an historical character. Surely then, by your own admission, the burden of proof is with you? The claim is that Jesus was NOT historical. All opposing views were therefore counter claims. Which you go on to say do not need proving.

Just how many cakes do want to eat?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

I'm not equating atheism with religious fundamentalism; what I am equating are the folks on both sides of the issue who seem compelled to argue incessantly over things that simple can't be proven, yet even admitting that, they seem to be demanding that others believe as they do.

I think Frank has a solid handle on this whole issue.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:40 PM

I agree


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:41 PM

It still does not matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Wavery
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:57 PM

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."        - Verbal Kint


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:34 PM

"Until I say the whole movie for the first time I thought -I- was Kaiser Soze!" -Gabriel Byrne-


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:14 AM

Somebody, I think it was 282RA (who appears to be AR282 without the Caesarian obsession), wrote "remember that two Roman Church bishops--Irenaeus and Papias--did not believe Jesus died on the cross but lived in Asia to age 50". I do not want to argue the point (or the historicity of Jesus for that matter) but I would be grateful for any pointers to evidence to back up this "memory". Where is the evidence that Irenaeus and Papias, or either of them, believed Jesus lived in Asia to age 50? Curious... have never encountered this notion before.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:44 AM

Frank - "Religion was probably invented to codify morality so that laws could prevail in a society. The problem has been that many laws are not sacrosanct and can be immoral or unjust."

Aint it the truth.

"invented to codify morality..."

...according to religious leaders who are made powerful by their flocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:02 AM

Don, I agree with you that people must come to their own conclusions.

Dianavan, I think that religious leaders who are made powerful by their flocks are opportunists who are like many politicians today.

Separation of Church and State was a crucial foundation of the US Constitution because the Founding Fathers realized just how political religion can become. They were prophetic.
      Historically, there is a short jump from Cromwell to Fallwell.

Everyone, why should anyone care about the historical Jesus? What purpose would it serve? Or the historical Zeus or Mithras. BTW, let me be the first to wish you all a Merry Mithras (ancient Egyptian god) since he was apparently born (unlike Jesus) on December 25th. :)

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:10 AM

Thanks Don. I agree that people have to come to their own conclusions.

Dianavan, the Founding Fathers recognized just how political religion could become.
That's why we have Separation of Church and State.

Mithras (Egytian god worshipped by the Romans) was reputedly born on Dec. 25. Let me be the first to wish you all a Merry Mithras. :}

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:12 AM

Sorry to send message twice. My computer provider screwed up.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:50 AM

>>Somebody, I think it was 282RA (who appears to be AR282 without the Caesarian obsession), wrote "remember that two Roman Church bishops--Irenaeus and Papias--did not believe Jesus died on the cross but lived in Asia to age 50". I do not want to argue the point (or the historicity of Jesus for that matter) but I would be grateful for any pointers to evidence to back up this "memory". Where is the evidence that Irenaeus and Papias, or either of them, believed Jesus lived in Asia to age 50? Curious... have never encountered this notion before. <<

Once again, people refuse to do their own homework and would rather rely on the very person they are disputing to dig up the information for them. Why don't you folks actually investigate something on your own like I have? Then maybe you'll see where I'm coming from instead of arguing everything only to admit in the end that you haven't investigated anything and don't really know what you're talking about?

I could quote Tom Harpur, who gives a very good synopsis, but you probably wouldn't accept it since he seems to be of a non-historic bent. So I got this from the Catholic Encyclopedia Online:

It is probable that whenever St. Irenaeus quotes "the Presbyters" or "the Presbyters who had seen John", he is citing the work of Papias. Where he attributes to these followers of John the assertion that Our Lord sanctified all the ages of man, that Papias had inferred that Our Lord reached the age of fifty, as Irenaeus concludes, nor need we be too certain that Papias explicitly cited the Presbyters in the passage in question. His real statement is possibly preserved in a sentence of "De fabrica mundi", which implies only that our Lord reached the perfect age (between 30 and 40) after which decline begins.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11457c.htm

Now there are some Christian apologists that try to fudge 50 years into 33 but there is nothing from Papias that says Jesus died at 50. Irenaeus says it and he says he got it from Papias. Since Papias only survives today in fragments, we'll have to take Irenaues's word that there was such a statement by Papias because it no longer exists. Irenaeus, however, seemed to be an accurate writer since he did accurately quote gnostic passages in his "Against Heresies" at a time when we did not have the Nag Hammadi Library and were forced to accept Irenaeus at his word. To his credit, Nag Hammadi proved he was accurate in what he quoted. So if he says that Papias stated Jesus "passed through every age" and lived to 50 and that Papias claimed to have learned this from John the Presbyter, then I'd take Irenaeus at his word.

Odd, isn't it that two bishops of the Church were allowed to hold this view and write of it without any rebuke from the Church? Obviously Christianity was far more varied than Christianity today would like to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:58 AM

>>>Just spotted a whopping hole AR/RA. You say When you make the claim, you have the burden of proof. Hence, the claim that Jesus Christ was historical must be proven.

This whole thread (and your other one) was started with the claim that Jesus was not an historical character. Surely then, by your own admission, the burden of proof is with you?<<<

Wow, I sure didn't see that coming!! All I can do is paste this post I tacked up on this thread about 3 days ago:

>>Some folks have a skewed view of how proof works. It goes like this:

When you make the claim, you have the burden of proof.

Hence, the claim that Jesus Christ was historical must be proven. You don't ask the con side to prove it because one does not prove the negative. This prevents the pro side from invalidly trying to turn the tables to "prove he didn't." That is not where the burden of proof lies so no one has to prove he didn't.

Nor can you try to prove your claim by saying, "You can't prove anyone existed. Prove Lincoln existed." Okay, I will. We have his photos, we have his words, his handwriting, many accounts by those who knew him. His eldest son, Robert, lived well into the 20th century. If we had any such proof as this with Jesus Christ, we'd have no reason to question his historicity. The burden of proof really doesn't lie on the person claiming Lincoln existed but on the one who claims he didn't. We won't find any photos of Christ, of course, but we should at least have a plethora of accounts contemporary with Jesus Christ had he actually existed. We have nothing. Even the spurious Josephus quote and the misinterpreted Tacitus quote were not contemporary to Jesus Christ.

Even so, compelling evidence has been brought forth that presents a very strong case that Jesus Christ was not historical and even this has yet to be satifactorily rebutted.

You have to prove Jesus Christ was historical and if you fail, then your case is considered wrong or false until you can prove it. None of this "he's real to those that believe." That's as silly as saying the tooth fairy is real to those who believe. So what? Doesn't make them right. It does make them gullible though.<<


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:02 PM

Btw, DtG,

I didn't start this thread or "the other one." They are not "my threads." The truth is, I took both over virtually without effort. So I will take that to mean I own them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:04 PM

>>Don, I agree with you that people must come to their own conclusions.<<

That's problematic when they don't have all the information they should in order to do that. It's even more problematic when they don't want to know that information. No Bush is president, the whole damned country thinks just like him--make up your mind and facts be damned.

I don't let anybody get away with that anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

That was indeed the point AR282/282RA (whichever handle you prefer). You made the claim. You substantiate it but, OK, they are indeed your threads. You are most welcome to them and I hope they give you great pleasure. Who am I to spoil whatever you need to satisfy you. Good luck with them.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 01:26 PM

Thanks for the info on Irenaeus and Jesus living to 50, 282. It does indeed look like a significant issue. But when you wrote that I "refuse to do [my] own homework and would rather rely on the very person they [I'm] disputing to dig up the information for [me]" you misconstrue the situation. First off, I wasn't disputing you, I was asking for your evidence (as you have done innumerable times in these threads); secondly, I wasn't disputing you, I was interested in learning more about something I had never run into before; and in the third place, you wrote that we should "remember" this, which is dang hard to do if one has never heard it before.

As for Irenaeus getting away with heresy (if this is what it was), doesn't surprise me at all. The Church (you said "Roman church bishops" but I'm not sure there's any reason to call him "Roman") was a lot less centralized, a lot less authoritarian, and a lot more open to diversity in a variety of areas in the second century than it was in the fourth after it was bought out by the Empire.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 01:59 PM

". . . when they don't have all the information they should. . . ."

And you do? 282RA. how do you know what other people know?

That's what gets me about fanatical fundamentalists of any stripe, religious or atheist:   their bloody "know-it-all" arrogance. As if they have a direct pipeline to the Almighty.

Or whatever.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:05 PM

Don, you say, "That's what gets me about fanatical fundamentalists of any stripe, religious or atheist:   their bloody "know-it-all" arrogance. As if they have a direct pipeline to the Almighty."

Isn't that the crux of it all? Who has the 'direct pipeline?'

The Roman Catholic Church and most Christian churches that have followed are all based on the succession of the apostles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:17 PM

Been enjoying much of this thread, with the following comments:

Guest, Sori. Your initial post was thoughtful and well-argued. The only thing I'd change would be to eliminate the word 'rightful' in the last line, unless you meant it ironically, in which case I'd put 'apostrophes' around it.

I'd also create a Sori persona so I would not show up as a guest, it's too easy to subvert the ID if you're going to post more on the topic and be taken seriously. See how many 'Guests' like to show up and throw their little bombs into the column and discombobulate the rest.

Religion is the awe in which we hold our ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:17 PM

>>Thanks for the info on Irenaeus and Jesus living to 50, 282. It does indeed look like a significant issue. But when you wrote that I "refuse to do [my] own homework and would rather rely on the very person they [I'm] disputing to dig up the information for [me]" you misconstrue the situation. First off, I wasn't disputing you, I was asking for your evidence (as you have done innumerable times in these threads); secondly, I wasn't disputing you, I was interested in learning more about something I had never run into before; and in the third place, you wrote that we should "remember" this, which is dang hard to do if one has never heard it before.<<

Fair enough. I'm sorry for berating you. I've been quoting sources all along and it seemed no one cared--so I figured they knew it already or they didn't care about it. I would think anyone would find it of import and give it careful consideration. It doesn't matter what they think of me. Look at the info, if you're interested--delve more deeply into it. Christianity/Gnosticism are far more fascinating and informative than most people ever dreamed. And that's only counting what has survived. Far more has undoubtedly perished.

>>As for Irenaeus getting away with heresy (if this is what it was), doesn't surprise me at all. The Church (you said "Roman church bishops" but I'm not sure there's any reason to call him "Roman") was a lot less centralized, a lot less authoritarian, and a lot more open to diversity in a variety of areas in the second century than it was in the fourth after it was bought out by the Empire.<<

The Church still had the idea of heresy back then because Irenaeus condemned gnosticism (his word, btw) as heresy (which actually means "choice"). But apparently, the belief that Jesus survived the crucifixion and lived to age 50 was okay within the Church. That would indicate that much of the Roman Church came from Papias whom they asserted knew Polycarp who was certainly mythical. We're not even sure when Papias lived--early or mid 2nd century.

Papias stated that Mark was an interpreter for Peter and that his account was accurate in the episodes recounted but were out of order. Papias doesn't elaborate on what was out of order in Mark's narrative. We do know that Mark has no miraculous birth story (or any birth story) and the earliest versions ended at 16:8 thereby cutting out the resurrection. He seemed to have Luke but we can't be certain how similar it is to today's but likely was not in narrative form in his day. He claimed Matthew was written in Hebrew. Irenaeus is the first Church Father to mention the four present gospels sometime around 180 or later. Papias's fragments mention no crucifixion. As with James's epistle, he may not have heard of it. Irenaeus appears to have combined the crucifixion with Papias's material by having Jesus survive the crucifixion in order to live to age 50. We have no indication that Papias believed that or had ever heard of it. So Papias apparently believed in a very different Jesus than today's orthodoxy. But then so did Irenaeus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:51 PM

>>And you do? 282RA. how do you know what other people know?<<

I'm sure I don't but I believe everybody should have the same information I do, it seems to me to be very important information and very strange to me that people should be so ignorant of it. With the importance we place on Christianity in the U.S. we know surprisingly little about it. I seriously doubt more than 1 in 10,000 American self-professed Christians could tell you a thing about Origen or could even honestly say they had ever heard of him.

Otherwise they would know he was a 3rd century Church Father who more or less fell out of favor with the Church because he had the audacity to be born in raised virtually in the same area as Nazareth was said to be and yet he had never heard of it and could locate nothing of it. He could neither locate nor verify the existence of cities as Bethany (where Jesus supposedly raised Lazarus) or Bethphage. Origen was a Josephus scholar who pored over the man's works in hopes of finding a historical reference to Jesus Christ and never mentioned the passage Eusebius quoted a century later.

We should know Eusebius was essentially a liar and certainly not a historian. That his Josephus quote is spurious, that it was he who wrote the account of Constantine seeing crosses in the sky before the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 and therefore the account is likely not true. We should know Eusebius actually championed using falsehood and deceit to spread the gospel.

Then there's Bishop Cyril of Alexandria, Peter the Reader, Hypatia, the 2nd sacking of the Library and the history of the Library itself and what it was said to have housed in its glory days.

People should know how monks were recruited from prisons and those thrown out of the military. How they were shaped into a street army and, like Hitler's early SS, club down hecklers and beat up opponent's. On a word from the bishop they would riot, rampage, loot, pillage, rape and kill. This was how business was done for the Church and how so many ancient writings have disappeared--these marauding Christian armies destroying everything they could get their hands on.

There was also a wonderful library at Tripoli, Lebanon that was also destroyed. Very interesting reading.

Then there is early Christianity in Rome. Why Christ was never referred to as "Jesus" or any variation. He was only called "Chreist" or Chrestus. And the earliest known image of a crucified savior is graffito from 2nd century Rome and depicts a human body surmounted with an ass's head and the figure is nailed to a cross. Next to that the phrase in Latin, "Alexamenos worships his god" which tells us a lot about what kind of worship was going on in the Eastern Greek-speaking Empire (Alexamenos being a Greek name). And the fact that no New Testament scenes are found painted on the walls in the Roman catacombs, no crosses other than the swastika. One depiction of Jesus there shows him as Orpheus strumming a lyre and surrounded by Old Testament figures. You have to ask youself, what did Christians believe before there was a New Testament? It's bound to be very different from yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:41 PM

I am acquainted with all of that, 282RA. Have you ever read The Closing of the Western Mind : The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason by Charles Freeman? I found it most educational and enlightening. Freeman covers a pretty wide scope and I think it's pretty easy to tell by the title where he's coming from.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:52 PM

I prefer Playboy


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:41 AM

I, too have been told to go to war. In my case, the mandate stemmed from a large white rabbit, about six feet in height, not normally visible, it seems, to normal mortals. His name, Harvey, is actually a corruption of the ancient Babylonian word "Larry", which is in turn cognate to the Hebrew "Yaweh".

However, after due consideration, I have decided to decline the option to comply with this powerful spiritual being, since I feel it would be unethical, and compromise my inherent personal moral compass.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:01 PM

Amos, listen carefully: Harvey is a friend of mine. Harvey would not advise or condone bloodshed, except metaphorically. If he appears to be telling you otherwise, bid the bogus apparition begone.


:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:09 PM

If you see Buddah by the side of the road, kill him....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:16 PM

Amos,

Harvey is a friend of mine. I knew Harvey. You, sir, are no Harvey.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:51 PM

Harvey? Is that you?

Don Firth


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