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BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'

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BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'-banned (221)
BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs (85)


Bill D 25 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 25 Jan 07 - 06:57 PM
JohnInKansas 25 Jan 07 - 06:26 PM
JohnInKansas 25 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM
John Hardly 25 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM
Amos 25 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,JTT 25 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,JTT 25 Jan 07 - 10:28 AM
EBarnacle 24 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM
EBarnacle 24 Jan 07 - 11:22 AM
Amos 23 Jan 07 - 08:17 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jul 06 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Big Brother 25 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 06 - 12:25 AM
GUEST, Ebbie 24 Jul 06 - 06:58 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM
Barry Finn 24 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM
Alice 24 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM
Ebbie 24 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Al 24 Jul 06 - 01:44 AM
Little Hawk 23 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM
Arne 23 Jul 06 - 06:55 PM
bflat 23 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM
Alice 20 Jul 06 - 09:51 PM
Ebbie 20 Jul 06 - 12:03 PM
bflat 19 Jul 06 - 05:26 PM
bflat 18 Jul 06 - 09:05 PM
MAG 17 Jul 06 - 10:06 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 06 - 04:01 PM
Amos 17 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM
Ebbie 17 Jul 06 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Tom Fenner 17 Jul 06 - 12:33 AM
Ebbie 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 AM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 06 - 10:15 AM
Amos 23 Jun 06 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Al 23 Jun 06 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Woody 23 Jun 06 - 01:04 AM
Alba 22 Jun 06 - 08:15 PM
Amos 22 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM
Amos 22 Jun 06 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,saulgoldie 22 Jun 06 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,TIA 22 Jun 06 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Woody 22 Jun 06 - 11:30 AM
Amos 22 Jun 06 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,Woody 22 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM
Amos 22 Jun 06 - 09:12 AM
Bunnahabhain 22 Jun 06 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Woody 22 Jun 06 - 01:34 AM
GUEST,Woody 22 Jun 06 - 01:32 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM

Diane was smitten with those BIG cousins of yours, Chongo...you'd never have gotten to first base with her.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:57 PM

Here's another inconvenient truth: Most human dames don't find chimpanzees very attractive! I know it's hard to believe, but it's the truth. I've taken note of it, and there ain't no denyin' what is a cold, hard, and freakin' inconvenient truth! They think we're downright UGLY!

Fortunately, though, if ya got an incredible amount of charm and personal moxy...like yours truly...then you can still beat the odds now and then.

That Jane Goodall...she was an exception to the general rule. Then there was Diane whatzername...I never met her. Too bad.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:26 PM

I think I've mentioned before that I always preview and check links except when I've reallly screwed something up. This dumb site didn't recognize that "herf" meant "href".

The Link above should have shown as:

http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM

Mention has been made above about the difference between the problems of "the ozone hole" and "global warming." They are, in fact, two disparate problems. The ozone hole appears to be "recovering" although still bears watching.

A "biographical essay" on the principal scientist who first discovered the accepted mechanism for, accurately documented, and produced accurate simulation programs for the ozone hole, Susan Solomon, appears in the February 2007 issue of Smithsonian Magazine. Look (later) for "Ahead in the Clouds."

The January issue is still up as the "current" one at the website, but this article is interesting, low-tech, and may clear up some of the confusion between the two issues for those who need a "consumer friendly" explanation. You'll likely enjoy looking at the January issue if you want to test the link; and it should be the same link for the February issue as soon as it's posted: http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/.

Susan Solomon is also co-chair for the pending NATO report on global warming. A "summary article" was to be released this week, with the complete report in four parts (1,600 pages estimated) over the next few months. This report claims direct participation by over 500 scientists and review (and presumed concurrence) by governments of around 150 countries. It's difficult to see how it could not represent a majority opinion but of course we'll have to look it up and see.

(Some additional blather about the NATO report was also posted at the "What do Scientist Think About" thread - if I remember where I was that day.)

Sorry to post a link you have to wait for, but "informed and curious" people should have the mag bookmarked anyway (IMnsHO).

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM

The whole thing is political, but at least this
guy is funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

EBarnacles product page is here.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM

By the way, this is worth watching, while we're on YouTube.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:28 AM

One of the most interesting points in An Inconvenient Truth, for me, was that virtually all scientific, peer-reviewed articles written in stringently academic science journals were about the reality of global warming, while a majority of popular press articles were dismissive of it.

In other words, respectable scientists who have collected and understood the evidence think we're in an emergency. Tabloid journalists think we're not.

I know who I believe!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

I forgot to mention that GW Bush mentioned that we need to reduce our fossil fuel use and emissions by 20%. This product can help.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:22 AM

Go back to the original definition of propaganda: information

As a statistician, I understand that correlation does not define causation. It can, however, point to causes and effects. If you see a tsunami wave coming your way and say that it might cause damage but you are not absolutely sure that you will be hurt because you have not been hurt before, you are a fool. Precautions are always a good idea.

The freon issue is a good example of a step in the right direction.

After seeing An Inconvenient Truth, I attempted to get hold of Mr. Gore or Mr. Kerry's people to discuss the product mentioned below. I was unable to get to any sites except those involved with selling the DVD or raising money for campaigns.

About 15 months ago, a company with which I am affiliated came into existence. They make an engine treatment which reduces friction, improves sealing [valves and rings] in the engine, improves mileage per gallon and improves emissions. It's a pill which goes in your fuel tank and plates out on the cylinders and valve seats. It cuts down on wear during the moments before oil lubricates the cylinders.
The catalytic effect raises the burn temps of gas, gasohol, diesel and biodiesel by 120 Fahrenheit, consuming the impurities and giving the vehicle more power.
The company is now in more than 160 countries and is negotiating with the People's Republic of China. They are interested in it because of the emissions improvements more than the fuel savings. If you would like to check it out, you can read more [and hopefully order some from my website] at: ugotmiles.myffi.biz [I tried to create a link with the clickifier but it did not go through.]

As with freon, it is not the whole answer but it is a step along the way. The product, MPG-Caps, essentially eliminates CO (Cabron Monoxide) and NOx (Nitrous oxides) as well as unburnt carbon from your exhaust.

When I went to get my car inspected, the inspector put his probe into the exhaust pipe and looked at the numbers. He gave me a look, pulled the probe out and reset it. Then he tested it again, got the same results. He jacked the car up and looked for a cutout. When he turned the car back to me, he asked me how I did it.

The stuff reads like snake oil but it works. That's all I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:17 PM

NEW YORK (AP) -- Who says politics is show business for ugly people?

''An Inconvenient Truth,'' Al Gore's film on the perils of global warming, scored two Oscar nominations Tuesday -- for best documentary feature and best original song.

While he is not technically a nominee -- the film's director, Davis Guggenheim, won the nod, as did singer Melissa Etheridge for the song ''I Need to Wake Up'' -- Gore said he was ''thrilled'' that his movie was honored.

''The film ... has brought awareness of the climate crisis to people in the United States and all over the world,'' Gore said in an e-mail statement. ''I am so grateful to the entire team and pleased that the Academy has recognized their work. This film proves that movies really can make a difference.''

Aides say the former vice president plans to walk the red carpet with Hollywood's beautiful people at the Academy Awards ceremony next month.

Guggenheim said he wasn't expecting a nomination but welcomed the fresh attention from the Academy's recognition. He said he spoke to Gore and asked him, '''Are you ready to go to the show?' I think he's ready. For years he's been in the wilderness on global warming. Now he's ready for his grand walk. Now he's at the Academy Awards. It's a hero's return.''


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:34 PM

The easiest way to enslave a people is to convince them that they are free, and distract them all the while by pandering to their most simple appetites...fast food, light entertainment, drugs, alcohol, stimulants, sexual fantasies, material goods, gossip, and melodrama.

Welcome to the New World Order. Big Brother thanks you for spending.

Need a new credit card to add onto your load of debt? It's in the mail now. Instant gratification is our credo. There are no consequences to total irresponsibility. Believe it, oh "free" one.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Big Brother
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM

Now, don't pay any attention to that. Mere coincidence. Say! Did you hear about the great new "Rocky" film that's coming out soon with Sylvester Stallone? It's called "Rocky Balboa" and it's gonna be great! You have to see it! Now, THAT's entertainment!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM

It's not getting a lot of distribution - legal or illegal. Normally a film like this would already be roaming the internet in torrent form, but all the files called An Inconvenient Truth are either porn or a Fox News reply to the film. Odd.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:25 AM

There used to be little local theatres around here, Ebbie, but they're all gone. They have been shut down and replaced by the modern "multiplex" which has 5-10 different screens, surround sound so loud that it will strip paint off a Volvo, and 20 minutes of f**king ads and previews before the movie you PAID TO SEE even starts!!!!!!!!!!!   It's a goddamn outrage.

All these soulless assembly line multiplexes are owned by one or two big chains...and they only show the standard mass consumption movies...at very inflated prices. I'll say one thing in their favour, though. The seating is good.

The only place you can still find small, privately owned theatres that screen more unusual or informative stuff is the Metro Toronto area, and maybe Ottawa and a few other major cities (like Montreal or Vancouver).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:58 PM

The little theatre that is showing the film right now seats only about 70 people, I think. It's an old one in an old building, one that's been used for 'FILMS' rather than 'movies' over the years. Since Lisle has owned it, he features a tourist-focused film about Juneau's history that he made a few years ago, called 'Gold Town'.

I don't know how many films he shows each year but he books just about anything that the big theatres aren't interested in.

Would it be that difficult to set up shop in just about any long, narrow room?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

I heard some moron on this thread say that movies are just for "entertainment"! LOL! Boy, that is the way Big Brother WANTS you to think. Yessiree. Just line up like little sheep for the entertainment, and for God's sake don't THINK about anything real while you're doing it...or any other time either. Worry about the hockey scores, don't worry about pollution, war, and poverty!

Pathetic.

Well, Ebbie, Most of the movie theatres in Canada are controlled by a couple of big corporate chains, and they decide what to show and what not to. Guess why "An Inconvenient Truth" is showing in almost no movie theatres in Ontario...

Because it's inconvenient, that's why. ;-) A population that remains ignorant is easily controlled.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM

Ebbie, sadly it's not unconscionable. A couple times now my wife & I have wanted to go out for an evening show to see this & it's a 45 minute drive to find a theather that's playing it. Concord & Portsmout NH & the Boston area. I don't know how it is for other that don't live in cities but here & just 50 minutes north of Boston) we don't get to see these types of movies but we can see any of the less filling shows at any time.

Wish it weren't so.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Alice
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

Woody, until you see the movie and actually address what it contains, your arguments are nothing but hot air aimed at an illusion you want to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM

That's unconscionable, Little Hawk. Juneau is a small town (30,000) but the film has been held over another week because the small theatre has been packed for two showings every night. Lisle Hebert, bless him, is making some serious money with it.

The big theatres could have carried it.


Al, possible solutions?

At the end of the documentary Gore lists six or seven small(ish) things we can do. This, he says, would bring us to the level of 1970- and from there we can make some real changes.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:44 AM

So what are the possible solutions to the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM

Here's the MOST inconvenient thing about the truth this movie is trying to make more people aware of:

I live in southern Ontario. If I want to see "Pirates of the Caribbean", I can see it in any town in the province, no problem. It's showing in hundreds of theatres in Ontario. If I want to see Al Gore's movie, I have exactly two theatres I can see it at, and they're both about 100 miles away from where I live.

Guess what the $ySStem would rather people watched? Mindless entertainment, that's what...movies that are fun but don't tell you anything, and don't get you asking any disturbing questions of yourself or the powers that be.

And by the way...I love Johnny Deep in his role as Captain Jack Sparrow...but I'd really like to not have to drive 100 miles to see "An Inconvenient Truth".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Arne
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:55 PM

Tom Fenner:

I don't watch propaganda from either the Left, or the Right, so I won't be seeing the movie....

Ahhhh, ignerrence is bliss...

... However, from the interviews Al has given, i gather that he has ignored the fact that one reason for the one degree rise in temerature in the past hundred years is that the sun is a bit hotter....

No. Mainly because it's not a fact. It's RW propaganda.

... That just might contribute to global warming.

Well, if it were true and it did make up a substantial contribution to warming. But the scientists are all in accort (those not on the Exxon-Mobil payroll, that is) that human factors account for a major portion of the warming, and increased solar insolation less. They don't say it doesn't exist, they say the human factors are greater.

.. my problem with the sky is falling crowd, is that they only look at stats that support what they feel is the truth....

Ummm, your evidence for this?: _______________

For instance, we banned an efficient refrigerant because florocarbons destroy the ozone layer....

Has nothing to do with warming (or more strictly, very little). Ozone depletion leads to increases in U/V, which is a different environmental problem that warming (leads to skin cancers, etc.). In addition, we've developed other refrigerants that do the job perfectly adequately. Ozone depletion has been tapering off, thanks to good science and good political and technical responses. The Freon ban is a success story. You need to read more and learm more.

... Big help! A few years back, a volcano in Indonesia blew up, and put more florocarbons in the air in twenty-four hours than we have made since we started making them.

Ummmm, no. Vocanoes don't spew flourocarbons. They spew SO2 (sulphur dioxide), which is one greenhouse gas, but not flourocarbons.

You really need to learn a bit more before before you start ignoring the consensus conclusions of reputable (and knowledgeable) scientists around the world. Based on the garbage you're trotting out here, you have a ways to go.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: bflat
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

Ebbie: Thank you for your sensitivity. I think we ought to shelter children somewhat and not frighten them. It is a delicate balance of information and protection. Hope we all do a reasonable job at it.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:51 PM

Even if you think it is propaganda, go see the movie. If you really want to criticize something, you first have to be fully informed about the subject of your critique. See the movie and then post your analysis here.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:03 PM

bflat, I agree that these issues can be very upsetting to youngsters. I was 9 years old when WWII ended and for years afterward I worried about the 'end of the world'. My parents and their friends worried incessantly about the atomic bomb and its capabilities, and they didn't tailor their conversations to the sensibilities of a kid.

Along those same lines my brother in his 20s thought it wasn't fair to bring more children into such a dangerous world.

His two children are now 44 and 38 years old.

My point is that, bad as things look at times and bad as they could get, we never know. All we can do is the best we can, which includes doing our best to help others to work for it too.

I think that if my parents had given me a few basic truths it would have reduced my fear a lot. Just talking it out, including the comforting thought that we're all in it together and some of the best minds on the planet are working to counteract some of the worst, would have helped.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: bflat
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:26 PM

The above was written by my 13 yr old grandson. He is very concerned about the future of the planet and well he should be but I don't like him feeling that the end is near, too much apocalyptic information for a youth.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: bflat
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:05 PM

I saw this movie with my Mom. I was really impressed with what Al Gore had to say. I've never thought of it but if I compare the current weather to last years' weather it feels like a different planet already. We need to do something to make the world better.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: MAG
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:06 PM

OK, I saw it at noon today. It just arrived at our little theater.

He carefully documented every damn thing he said, including why we are currently off the chart from the normal cycle.

Hey, if you don't grok the scientific method, nothing's going to convince you.

The rapture people probably love it, because they can't wait for the end of the world.

His soft southern accent and folksy biblical references probably make it palatable to folks who might not otherwise listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:01 PM

"An Inconvenient Truth" is a documentary.

It's only "propaganda" to those who don't like what it says.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

Fenner:

Your characterization of the film as propoganda is badly off the mark. And the difference between historical extremes of temoperature and carbon cycles, and the current trend which is out pacing them by an order of magnitude, is made explicitly clear in the film. I urge you to see it first, and then make up your mind about its merits.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:14 AM

Tom Fenner, you'd have a much better idea of what is being shown if you went to see the documentary. It isn't stats, per se. And it is not propaganda if by that you mean an agenda that is meant to profit the people holding and propounding the view.

On the other hand, we ignore its message at our peril.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Tom Fenner
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:33 AM

I don't watch propaganda from either the Left, or the Right, so I won't be seeing the movie. However, from the interviews Al has given, i gather that he has ignored the fact that one reason for the one degree rise in temerature in the past hundred years is that the sun is a bit hotter. That just might contribute to global warming.
my problem with the sky is falling crowd, is that they only look at stats that support what they feel is the truth. For instance, we banned an efficient refrigerant because florocarbons destroy the ozone layer. Big help! A few years back, a volcano in Indonesia blew up, and put more florocarbons in the air in twenty-four hours than we have made since we started making them.
We have had several Ice Ages. Humans didn't cause them. what makes people thimk we can stop the next one?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 AM

I saw the film tonight and am very impressed, both by the compelling truths and by the presentation. There isn't much there that we were not aware of already but laid out in front of you it's very graphic and convincing.

The only problem is, as one friend said, it was mostly the choir listening.

Although at the break - changing reels? - this young man in the row behind me said to his friend, Well, it doesn't convince me. And then went on to scoff at Gore's having had a dog and a pony on the farm.

At first I thought he was kidding but after listening a bit I saw that he wasn't. I turned and gave him a direct look. He repeated what he had said.

I said, evenly, I'm going to keep quiet, OK? I'm biting my tongue.

And I turned back to face the front.

I don't know if it was my advanced age or what but he only whispered to his friend after that.

When Gore said some time after that that he tries to find out why and for what reason people don't believe it I hoped that it made the young man start thinking a bit.

In the lobby afterward the young man nodded and said hi to me. I guess it must be my advanced age!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:15 AM

Yes, but then their raging little egos would have to admit to possibly having been mistaken about something! And that would damage their sense of themselves! It would make them feel like they had "lost" something.

Not going to happen, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:12 AM

The cycle of temperature oscillations of which the Little Ice Age was part is an entirely different cycle, Woody; the current temperatures are breaking out of that cycle by an order ogf magnitude. If you read the original report about the "warmest in 400 years" the particular scientists say AT LEAST 400 years, and possibly much longer. The ice core analysis cited in "An Inconvenient Truth" extrapolate the values over the 6500 years (if memory fails to serve) analyzed and finds a long-term oscillation.

If you and Big Mouth Al would go see the damn film, it would save a lot of stupidity.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 08:00 AM

Yikes. It is cooler now than it was a thousand years ago.

What was the source of the greenhouse gases back then?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 01:04 AM

Then temperatures dropped to 'The Little Ice Age' in the 1600s,when the Thames froze over. And they have been rising slowly ever since, although they are still much lower than 1,000 years ago. We are now living in a rather cool period.

1600
+400
-----
2000


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Alba
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:15 PM

Damn it, sometimes the Truth can be a little inconvenient.
Warmest Temps in 400 Years

Congress asked for this Report by the way.
J


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

And see this post.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:36 PM

Woody, you ass. I have already pointed out here and elsewhere that the cyclical values you are trotting out are not comparable to the current accelerations in temperature change. The cyclical oscillations repeat over thousands of years in a range, call it one to ten, up and down. The current temperature values break out the top of that range and ramp up toward thirty. The break out is closely associated with the values of carbon in atmosphere measured from ice core data over the last 50-60 thousand years. The relationship (atmospheric carbon to temperature)throughout the period is closely coupled.

Go see the movie, read the book, do your homework.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:21 PM

All I have to say to the warming denouncers is that reality is what you have whether you believe in it or not. And warming IS that reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:58 AM

Some truth above, but modern politics is sure to get in the way. It used to be possible for humans to migrate to follow food supplies (and human populations were far smaller). Are we prepared to allow millions and millions of people to move north across international boundaries so they can live and work where we are now? Are we prepared to have those who dwell along coastlines move inland across international boundaries? We should probably prepare for this, but if we can moderate and/or slow climate change shouldn't we do that also?

The course we are on now (thanks to our government) is to ignore the problem, and let our kids and grandkids face the social and economic upheaval (and probable armed conflicts) that will result from mass displacments (whatever the level of human causation of climate change).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:30 AM

http://www.envirotruth.org/big_chill.cfm

.....The last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago. Temperatures rose to the 'Holocene Maximum' of about 5,000 years ago when it was about 3F higher than now, dropped in the time of Christ, and then rose to the 'Mediaeval Climate Optimum' of about 600 ad to 1100 ad, when temperatures were about 2F higher than now. This was a golden age for northern European agriculture and led to the rise of Viking civilisation. Greenland, now a frozen wasteland, was then a habitable Viking colony. There were vineyards in the south of England. Then temperatures dropped to 'The Little Ice Age' in the 1600s, when the Thames froze over. And they have been rising slowly ever since, although they are still much lower than 1,000 years ago. We are now living in a rather cool period.

What caused these ups and downs of temperature? We do not know. Temperature changes are a fact of nature, and we have no idea if the postulated 0.5F heating over the last 100 years is caused by man's activities or is simply part of a natural cycle. What we can say, though, is that if Europe heats up by 2F it would do it a power of good. We can see this from records of 1,000 years ago. Moreover, increased carbon dioxide makes plants grow more quickly, so improving crops and forests....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:02 AM

I would be interested to hear how this "dr." explains the correlations between carbon and temperature Mister Gore displays in his presentation, and how he rebuts the source of that data. Otherwise, your post is just rhetorical arm-waving.   What "factual data" does this gentleman actually bring to bear?

We know what Al Gore bases his comments on because he has the courtesy to say so in plain numbers.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

http://www.envirotruth.org/news_madhav.cfm

Extreme Weather Events NOT linked to Global Warming
Governments should base decisions on real data,
not shaky computer models

By: Dr. Madhav L. Khandekar, environmental consultant and former research scientist with Environment Canada

As a primary justification for allocating a billion dollars towards implementing the Kyoto Accord in Canada, Prime Minister Jean Chretien inexplicably chose to highlight the supposed connection between extreme weather events and climate change. In his mid-August 2003 speech announcing the new funding, the PM confidently told Canadians, "Extreme weather events around the world, and here in Canada, have underscored the harsh reality of climate change. Scientists have sounded the warning. We have no choice but to act. It is our moral responsibility."

In reality, governments have a 'moral responsibility' to properly consider what nature really tells us, even if the data scientists collect doesn't support the rhetoric of political leaders. While it is true that some scientists "have sounded the warning", many have not and the connection between global warming and extreme weather is being seriously questioned in many scientific studies and appears tenuous at best.

Mr. Chretien's belief in a global warming/extreme weather link originates with Environment Canada's senior managers who promote the extreme weather hypothesis despite having done no in-depth analysis of the relevant data. Mirroring Ex-Vice President Al Gore's proclamations (Gore: "Global warming is real and unless we act we can expect more extreme weather in the years ahead."), Mr. Henry Hengeveld and other Environment Canada spokespeople have tried to associate everything from snowstorms to floods to droughts with planetary warming. In my recent contract report to Alberta Environment (Alberta Provincial Government), I concluded that extreme weather events such as heat waves, rainstorms, intense windstorms, thunderstorms/tornadoes, winter blizzards, etc. are NOT increasing anywhere in Canada at this time. I also concluded that the probability of these events increasing in next 25 years remains very small..............


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:12 AM

Woody's style is like barhing into a coffee shop where folks are having quiet conversations with each other, and reading the Congressional Daily Record through a bullhorn. He never says what point it is he is trying to make, so it seems his whole purpose is to disrupt, distract, annoy, plague, irritate and interrupt.

Something like a small, badly raised child.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 06:53 AM

Woody, people don't tend to read very long lists, especially if you need to magnify them 300% to actually read them at all. And if it's a deathly dull list of weather events, why bother at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:34 AM

http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/media/top10/century_e.html

Top Weather Events of the 20th Century

1961-1980

* West Records Single Driest Year - 1961. Many areas in the drought-stricken Prairies received only 45% of normal precipitation. In Regina, every month but May was drier than normal, and for the 12-month crop year the precipitation total was the lowest ever. The duration, severity and size of the area effectively made this drought the worst on record. Losses in wheat production alone were $668 million, 30% more than in the previous worst year, 1936.
* Typhoon Freda Hits BC's Lower Mainland - October 12, 1962. Remnants of Typhoon Freda struck BC's Lower Mainland, causing 7 deaths and damages in excess of $10 million. Twenty percent of Stanley Park was flattened. In Victoria, winds reached sustained speeds of 90 km/h with gusts to 145 km/h.
* Violent Storm Strikes Maritimes - December 1-2, 1964. One of the most violent storms in years struck the Maritime provinces with gales reaching gust speeds of 160 km/h. Three fishing boats, including two large draggers, were lost in the storm accounting for the loss of 23 lives. Halifax and Charlottetown recorded their all-time lowest sea-level pressure ever.
* "Great Blizzard" Lashes Southern Prairies - December 15, 1964. Heavy snows, accompanied by 90 km/h winds and -34�C temperatures, paralyzed the southern Prairies. Three people froze to death and thousands of animals perished.
* Winnipeg's Snowstorm of the Century - March 4, 1966. This winter blizzard dropped 35 cm of snow with winds blowing at 120 km/h, paralyzing the city for two days. Winnipeg's mayor issued a warning for everyone to stay at home. The drifting snow blocked all highways in southern Manitoba and forced the cancellation of all air travel in and out of the Winnipeg airport.
* Blizzards in Southern Alberta - April 17-20 and 27-29, 1967. A series of intense winter storms dropped a record 175 cm of snow on southern Alberta. Thousands of cattle, unable to forage for food in the deep snow, perished on the open range. Army units were dispatched to assist in snow clearing, while food, fuel and feed were airlifted into the province. The good news? The Revenue Minister announced that the income tax deadline for residents of southern Alberta was extended two weeks to May 15.
* Greatest Rainfall in One Day - October 6, 1967. A one-day rainfall of 489.2 mm occurred at Ucluelet Brynnor Mines, BC - a Canadian weather record that still stands.
* Montreal's Snowstorm of the Century - March 4, 1971. Montreal's worst snowstorm killed 17 people and dumped 47 cm of snow on the city with winds of 110 km/h producing second-storey drifts. Winds snapped power poles and felled cables, cutting electricity for up to ten days in some areas. In total, the city hauled away 500,000 truckloads of snow.
* Crater in Quebec Opens During Rainstorm - May 4, 1971. Tragedy struck the village of St-Jean-Vianney, Quebec when heavy rains caused a sinkhole 600 m wide and 30 m deep to appear in a residential area. The crater/mudslide killed 31 people and swallowed up 35 homes, a bus and several cars.
* Hurricane Beth Soaks Nova Scotia - August 15, 1971. Hurricane Beth brought punishing winds and up to 300 mm of rain, causing considerable crop damage and swamping highways and bridges, temporarily isolating communities on the eastern mainland of Nova Scotia. More rain fell during Beth than during Hazel in 1954.
* One Cold Year -1972. The only year on record when all weather-reporting stations in Canada reported temperatures below normal on an annual basis.
* Another Killer Tornado in Windsor - April 3, 1974. Three hundred and twenty three people died when a series of tornadoes struck 11 states in the U.S. and Ontario within an eight-hour period. The tornadoes caused more than $1 billion dollars in damage. In Windsor, one funnel cloud touched down at several locations taking eight lives at the Windsor Curling Club.
* Edmund Fitzgerald Sinks in Great Lakes Storm - November 10, 1975. A severe storm causes the largest Great Lakes bulk ore carrier ever to break up and sink in 20 m-high waves, killing the entire 29-man crew. Canadian musician Gordon Lightfoot later immortalized the ship in a folk song.
* Groundhog Day Storm Batters Bay of Fundy - February 2, 1976. One of the fiercest storms ever in the Maritimes slammed into Saint John, NB. Winds were clocked at 188 km/h, generating 12-m waves and swells as high as 10 m. Everything coated with salt spray for miles inland and huge chunks of coastline eroded.
* Blizzard Isolates Iqaluit - February 8, 1979. Weather with -40�C temperatures, 100 km/h winds and zero visibility in snow kept residents of Iqaluit indoors for 10 days.

1981-1999

* Blizzard Maroons PEI - February 22-26, 1982. A huge snowstorm with up to 60 cm of snow, 100 km/h winds, zero visibility and wind chills of -35�C paralyzed the Island for a week. The storm buried vehicles, snowplows and trains in 5- to 7-metre drifts and cut off all ties with the mainland.
* Ocean Ranger Disaster - February 15, 1982. Bad weather caused the sinking of the largest semi-submersible drilling rig in the world, 300 km east of Newfoundland. In total, 84 people died in the world's second worst disaster involving an offshore drill ship. Winds of 145 km/h, waves of 21 metres and high seas hampered rescue efforts.
* Newfoundland Glaze Storm Cuts Power to 200,000 - April 13, 1984. Residents of the Avalon Peninsula were without electricity for days when cylinders of ice as large as 15 cm in diameter formed on overhead wires. The severe, two-day ice storm covered all of southeastern Newfoundland with 25 mm of glaze.
* Tornadoes in Barrie and Central Ontario - May 31, 1985. Three confirmed tornadoes struck the Ontario communities of Barrie, Grand Valley, Orangeville and Tottenham. The Barrie tornado was the fourth most damaging and had the longest track (200 km) in Canadian history. In all, the family of tornadoes killed 11 people, injured hundreds of others, and destroyed or damaged 1,000 buildings.
* Worst Air Crash in Canada - December 12, 1985. An Arrow Airlines DC-8, after refueling in Gander en route to Kentucky, crashed seconds after take-off, killing 248 members of the US 101st Airborne Division and 8 crew. Just before the crash, freezing drizzle and snow grains were reported. The temperature was -4.2�C and winds were light from the west.
* Black Friday Tornado - July 31, 1987. One of Canada's most intense tornadoes ever struck Edmonton and killed 27 people -- the second worst killer tornado in Canada. Winds reached 400 km/h, cutting a swath of death and destruction 40 km long and as much as 1 km wide. In addition, hail as large as softballs and 40 to 50 mm of flooding rain fell on the city.
* $4 Billion Drought - September 1987-August 1988. Across the southern Prairies, the hottest summer on record, combined with half the normal growing season rainfall and a virtually snow-free previous winter, produced a drought that rivaled the 1930s in terms of intensity and duration of the dry spell. About 10% of farmers and farm workers left agriculture in 1988. Effects of the drought were felt across the country as lower agricultural yields led to higher food and beverage prices for consumers.
* Warmest Winter Olympics - February 1988. The Winter Olympics in Calgary experienced some of the warmest temperatures ever for late February. On February 26, Miami's high temperature of 19.4�C was only a shade warmer than Calgary's maximum of 18.1�C.
* Record Wind Chill - January 28, 1989. It was bad enough when the temperature dropped to -51�C in Pelly Bay, NWT but the wind made the air feel even colder when the wind chill equivalent reached -91�C.
* Hailstorm Strikes Calgary - September 7, 1991. A supper-hour storm lasting 30 minutes dropped 10-cm diameter hail in Calgary subdivisions, splitting trees, breaking windows and siding, and crushing birds. Homeowners filed a record 116,000 insurance claims, with property damage losses exceeding $300 million -- the most destructive hailstorm ever and the second costliest storm in Canada.
* Canada's Only World-Weather Record - September 11, 1995. The QE2 ocean liner was struck by a 30-metre wave during Hurricane Luis off the coast of Newfoundland, marking the largest measured wave height in the world. The massive storm covered almost the entire North Atlantic, almost 2,000 km across.
* Saguenay Flood - July 18-21, 1996. Canada's first billion dollar disaster, this deluge triggered a surge of water, rocks, trees and mud that killed 10 people and forced 12,000 residents to flee their homes. Many roads and bridges in the region disappeared.
* Hailstorm Pounds Calgary and Winnipeg - July 24, 1996. Orange-sized hailstones racked up close to $300 million in property losses. Hail clogged storm sewers, causing extensive flooding in both cities and in Winnipeg, at least a third of the cars damaged had to be written off.
* Red River Flood Levels Highest of Century - April-May, 1997. About 2,000 square km of valley lands were flooded as the Red River rose 12 m above winter levels. Thousands of volunteers and soldiers fought rising waters for days. Damage estimates reached a half a billion dollars.
* Okanagan's $100 million Hailstorm - July 21, 1997. A destructive hail and wind storm ripped through the orchards of the Okanagan. It was the worst storm in memory with nearly 40% of the crop deemed unsuitable for fresh market. The rain and hail was accompanied by winds gusting to 100 km/h that capsized boats in the interior lakes, and caused power outages and traffic accidents.
* Ice Storm of the Century - January 4-9, 1998. One of the most destructive and disruptive storms in Canadian history hit Eastern Canada causing hardship for 4 million people and costing $3 billion. Losses included millions of trees, 130 transmission towers and 120,000 km of power and telephone lines. Power outages lasted from several hours to four weeks.
* A Year-Long Heat Wave - 1998. Canada experienced its second warmest winter and warmest spring, summer and fall on record. Temperatures in 1998 were an average of 2.4 degrees warmer than normal and likely the warmest year this century.
* Costliest Forest Fire Season on Record - 1998. Flames from forest fires destroyed 4.6 million hectares of forests, about 50% more than the normal amount. The 10,560 fires were the greatest number in 10 years.
* Toronto's Snowstorm of the Century - January 2-15, 1999. A series of storms stalked the city, dumping nearly a year's amount of snow in less than two weeks. In all, the city recorded the greatest January snowfall total ever with 118.4 cm and the greatest snow on the ground at any one time with 65 cm. The storms cost the city nearly twice the annual budget in snow removal.
* Greatest Single-Day Snowfall Record - February 11, 1999. Tahtsa Lake, BC, received 145 cm of snow, a new Canadian single-day snowfall record, but well below the world's record of 192 cm at Silver Lake, Colorado on April 15, 1921.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'An Inconvenient Truth'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:32 AM

http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/media/top10/century_e.html

Top Weather Events of the 20th Century


1900-1920

* Rogers Pass Avalanche - March 5, 1910. Sixty-two train men and labourers perished 2 km west of Rogers Pass, BC, when their engine was hit by an avalanche and hurtled 500 metres into Bear Creek. Over 600 volunteers used pick axes and shovels to dig through 10 m of snow in the search for survivors.
* World's Worst Iceberg Accident - April 15, 1912. The unsinkable Titanic collided with an iceberg 700 km southeast of Newfoundland, causing the death of 1,500 people and making headlines around the world.
* Deadliest Canadian Tornado - June 30, 1912. A late afternoon tornado slashed through six city blocks in Regina, killing up to 40 people, injuring 300 others, destroying 500 buildings and leaving a quarter of the population homeless. Better known as the "Regina Cyclone", the tornado lasted three minutes but it took 46 years to pay for the damages.
* Black Sunday Storm - November 7-13, 1913. One of the most severe Great Lakes storms on record swept winds of 140 km/h over lakes Erie and Ontario, taking down 34 ships and 270 sailors. Days later, the crew of one ship was found lashed to the mast, frozen to death -- only the ship survived.
* Storm Claims Sealers - April 1, 1914. Seventy-seven sealers froze to death during a violent storm on the ice off the southeast coast of Labrador. At the height of the storm, from March 31 to April 2, the temperature was -23�C with winds from the northwest at 64 km/h.
* Fog Causes Ship Collision - May 29, 1914. Shallow river fog contributed to the collision of two ships -- the CP Liner Empress of Ireland and a Norwegian coal ship, The Storstad -- in the St. Lawrence River, 300 km seaward from Quebec City. The liner sank in 25 minutes, and 1,024 passengers lost their lives.
* Victoria's Snowstorms of the Century - February 2, 1916 and December 28-29, 1996. Huge snowstorms, 80 years apart, clobbered Canada's "snow-free" city with more than 55 cm of snow. The December storm dropped 80 cm of snow in 24 hours, 125 cm in five days with cleanup costs exceeding $200 million (including a record insurance payout for BC of $80 million).
* Killer Lightning - July 29, 1916. Lightning ignited a forest fire which burned down the towns of Cochrane and Matheson, Ontario, killing 233 people.
* Princess Sophia Sinks off BC - October 23, 1918. A Canadian steamship carrying miners from Yukon and Alaska became stranded on Vanderbilt Reef. Rescuers were unable to remove the 268 passengers and 75 crewmen due to a strong northerly gale. The next day, weather conditions worsened and the ship sank killing all on board.

1921-1940

* August Gale Kills 56 in Newfoundland - August 24-25, 1927. A hurricane swept through Atlantic Canada washing out roads, filling basements, and swamping boats. In Newfoundland, 56 people died at sea.
* Multiple Tornadoes hit Southern Manitoba - June 22, 1922. Hot and humid air led to the development of several tornadoes in the area. Five deaths and hundreds of injuries were attributed to the event which caused $2 million in 1922 dollars.
* Dustbowl Era - 1930s. Between 1933 and 1937, the Prairies experienced only 60% of its normal rainfall. Thousands of livestock were lost to starvation and suffocation, crops withered and 250,000 people across the region abandoned their land to seek better lives elsewhere.
* Great Lakes Freighter Hit by Lightning - June 26, 1930. Lightning struck the bow of the John B. King drillship in the St. Lawrence River, igniting a store of dynamite onboard. The explosion killed 30 people and injured 11 others.
* Ontario's Coldest Day on Record - December 29, 1933. Fourteen sites recorded their coldest-ever temperature, including Ottawa at -38.9�C and Algonquin Park at -45.0�C. Outside Ontario, record cold temperatures were also set in Manitoba, Quebec and Nova Scotia.
* Cold Wave Grips Eastern North America - February 1934. A cold wave engulfed the continent from Manitoba to the Atlantic seaboard and down the east coast to Palm Beach, Florida. Ice trapped fishing vessels off Nova Scotia, hospitals were jammed with frostbite victims and, for only the second time in recorded history, Lake Ontario froze completely over.
* Cold Wave Freezes Victoria and BC's Lower Mainland - January 19-29, 1935. Winter weather gripped Vancouver, with temperatures dipping to -16� and snowfall greater than 40 cm. While the extreme cold caused fuel shortages and frozen water supplies, a quick thaw followed by 267 mm of rain over the next four days added extensive roof damage across the city, including the collapse of the Forum -- the city's main hockey and curling rink.
* The Deadliest Heat Wave in History - July 5-17, 1936. Temperatures exceeding 44�C in Manitoba and Ontario claimed 1,180 Canadians (mostly the elderly and infants) during the longest, deadliest heat wave on record. Four hundred of these deaths were caused by people who drowned seeking refuge from the heat. In fact, the heat was so intense that steel rail lines and bridge girders twisted, sidewalks buckled, crops wilted and fruit baked on trees.
* Hottest Day on Record - July 5, 1937. The highest temperature ever recorded in Canada was reached at Midale and Yellowgrass, Saskatchewan when the mercury soared to 45�C.

1941-1960

* Eastern Ontario's Freezing Rain Storm - December 28-30, 1942. Ice "as thick as a person's wrist" covered telephone wires, trees and railway tracks. In Ottawa, 50,000 workers walked to work for five days. Because of the war, there were few men available to clear the streets and repair lines.
* Toronto's Worst Single-Day Snowfall - December 11, 1944. A severe winter storm dumped 48 cm of snow on Toronto's downtown, while gale-force winds piled the snow into huge drifts. A total of 57.2 cm fell over two days. In all, 21 people died -- 13 from overexertion. Funerals were postponed, expectant mothers walked to hospitals, and there were no home deliveries of milk, ice or fuel. Of major concern, factories producing war ammunitions had to close temporarily.
* Windsor's Killer Tornado - June 17, 1946. The third worst killer tornado in Canadian history reared up across the Detroit River, killing 17 people and demolishing or damaging 400 homes in Windsor and the surrounding county. The tornado also took down 150 barns and farm buildings, and uprooted hundreds of orchard trees and full-grown woodlots.
* Worst Blizzard in Canadian Railway History - January 30 to February 8, 1947. A ten-day blizzard buried towns and trains from Winnipeg to Calgary, causing some Saskatchewan roads and rail lines to remain plugged with snow until spring. Children stepped over power lines to get to school and built tunnels to get to the outhouse. A Moose Jaw farmer had to cut a hole in the roof of his barn to get in to feed his cows.
* Coldest Temperature in North America - February 3, 1947. The temperature in Snag, Yukon dipped to -63�C, establishing Canada's reputation for extreme cold.
* BC's Worst Flood of the Century - May-June 1948. BC's Fraser River overflowed, drowning 10, inundating 22,200 hectares, destroying 2,300 homes and forcing 16,000 to flee. Row boats were the only means of transportation in much of the Fraser Valley, and for three weeks Vancouver had no rail connection with the rest of Canada.
* Red River Flood - Spring 1950. Described as the greatest flood disaster in Canadian history, the Red River crested at 9.2 m above normal near Winnipeg. While 100,000 people were evacuated from Southern Manitoba, miraculously only one drowning was reported. Losses included damage to 5,000 homes and buildings, totaling $550 M in property losses. The Manitoba government decided to construct the Winnipeg Floodway to forestall future flooding.
* First Person on Canadian Television - A Weatherperson! - September 8, 1954. Canadian television made its debut on this day, and meteorologist Percy Saltzman was the first person to appear on screen. Saltzman continued to present television weather for 22 years.
* Hurricane Hazel - October 15, 1954. Leaving a nightmare of destruction , Hazel dumped an estimated 300 million tonnes of rain on Toronto, causing lost streets, washed out bridges and untold personal tragedy. In all, 83 people died -- some bodies washing up on the shores of Lake Ontario in New York State days later.
* Deadly Snowstorm in St. John's - February 16, 1959. A snowstorm with strong winds created 7-metre drifts, blocking main streets and causing six casualties. Another 70,000 Newfoundlanders were left without power, crippled telephone service, and blocked highways, streets and railways. Scores of motorists spent the night at homes along the highways after drifts buried their stalled cars.
* Fishing Fleet Disaster off Esuminac, NB - June 20, 1959. More than 30 fishermen drowned in the worst storm disaster ever to hit the Gulf of St. Lawrence fishing fleet. Twenty-two salmon boats sank by a sudden, smashing north-easterly gale.



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