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BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?

Don Firth 20 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM
Clinton Hammond 20 Jun 06 - 12:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 06 - 12:44 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 06 - 12:20 PM
Clinton Hammond 20 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 06 - 07:30 AM
John O'L 20 Jun 06 - 01:13 AM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM
Ron Davies 19 Jun 06 - 11:22 PM
dianavan 19 Jun 06 - 09:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 06 - 07:30 PM
Don Firth 19 Jun 06 - 07:25 PM
John O'L 19 Jun 06 - 07:12 PM
Don Firth 19 Jun 06 - 06:16 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 06:06 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 06:04 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 06:01 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 05:48 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 04:55 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 04:41 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM
282RA 19 Jun 06 - 04:34 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 04:13 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 04:05 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 04:02 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 03:57 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 03:48 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 03:47 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 03:44 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 03:34 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 03:33 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 03:24 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 02:57 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 02:32 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 02:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM
Wesley S 19 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM
Don Firth 19 Jun 06 - 01:19 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 01:05 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Jun 06 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 May 06 - 05:46 PM
Peace 28 May 06 - 05:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 May 06 - 05:34 PM
Don Firth 28 May 06 - 04:40 PM
dianavan 28 May 06 - 04:31 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM

Yeah, I'd say Little Hawk's post of 19 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM puts it right where it's at.

As Eric Hoffer said in his book The True Believer, a fanatic is going to be a fanatic no matter what his cause. And even if he changes causes, he'll be just as rabid about the new cause as he was about the old one. Being a fanatic is what he's all about.

It's a psychological condition, indicative of low self-esteem and an inability to cope with an uncertain world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:56 PM

" I gave it up many years ago."

Nice to hear a success story....


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:44 PM

Yeah (yeah, yeah) but the Beatles were bigger than Jesus so there should be more people wrong about them:-) I am not sure what actualy WAS wrong with them but I guess you will be happy to tell us, Clinton? Did they not exist as well?

Anyway, it has recently been discovered that there IS positive proof of his existance. In the recently unearthed and positively validated diaries of Tactus Vinimus, Roman scholar and house decorator of the period the following phrase has been found EGO said , somnium iens tenus pub Jesus? Tamen is said , haud EGO have praecessi ut nonnullus operor vel alius per Judas Loosley translates as "I said, fancy going down to the pub Jesus? But he said, no I have to go to some do or another with Judas"

As to "I'm a Catholic"
Sorry for your trouble.....


It is no trouble at all, Clinton. I gave it up many years ago. What can you do about your troubles though? I didn't think you could give up being Canadian:-0

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:20 PM

Heh! Lovely. Keep it up, Clinton...


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM

"Why not someone new?"
Because the vast majority of people are not very creative, even though they think they are... Take Mudcat, and Little Hawk for example.....

"There is more evidence that Jesus really existed as a genuine historical figure some +/-2000 years ago"
Lets see it.... we won't cause it isn't there...

"2 billion people are wrong"
IF they could be wrong about the Beatles they could be wrong about anything.... People are mostly scared, stupid and gullible.... See above for example....

"I'm a Catholic"
Sorry for your trouble.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 07:30 AM

I'm not a Christian, Dianavan, I'm a Catholic;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: John O'L
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:13 AM

At least you can slam the door on the Jehovah's Witnesses. It's a lot harder to click that 'back' button isn't it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM

LOL! I just love watching born-again atheist dimwits trying to recruit everybody else to join the ranks of the non-religious. It reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses...equally determined, equally blockheaded and fanatical, equally certain of the righteous value of their cause, tedious enough to bore the bollocks off a buffalo, and equally adept at wasting other people's time.

I'll say this, though. The Jehovah's Witnesses are mostly a lot nicer on the whole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:22 PM

Clinton, AR282, etc. just think it's unfair that the only intolerant preachers should be Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons etc. They want a crack at that role themselves.   And I'll have to say it's type-casting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:11 PM

Thats not very Christian of you, DtG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:30 PM

Yep, AR282, you have won. You are right and 2 billion people are wrong. Can I come and join your religion please? Or is it restricted to complete and utter wankers?

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:25 PM

"Btw, did any of the Jesus-was-historical freaks ever prove their case on this thread?

No?

Then I hereby declare victory!!"

Not so fast, there.

First of all, your characterization of "Jesus-was-historical freaks" is essentially a straw man of your own construction. There are a substantial number of non-religious historians who maintain that Jesus (or Yeshua or Joshua), an itinerant rabbi from whose teachings a movement sprang, actually did exist. Considering the spread of the movement (even prior to Constantine), it's obvious that something was afoot. At the very least, one of the several itinerant rabbis who were wandering the area at that time tickled the fancy of a fairly large number of people. It makes a lot more sense to believe that someone resembling Jesus actually did exist to spark it off. The idea of some conspiracy makes far less sense than the idea that Jesus—a mortal human being who may have been quite charismatic, but not necessarily divine—really existed. Proof? None that you would find acceptable, obviously. But sufficient for a large number of accredited, academic historians—who, once again, are not necessarily religious themselves—to believe that it was quite probably true.

But then again, 282RA, what assurance do I have that you exist? All I see are some characters formed by LCDs on my computer's monitor. For all I know, you might be nothing more than some oddball glitch in the Windows XP operating system.

There is more evidence—not actual proof, but sufficient evidence to indicate probability—that Jesus really existed as a genuine historical figure some +/-2000 years ago than I have that you exist now.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:12 PM

Clinton, are you agreeing with AR282 that Jesus was a fiction, made up after the event and based on the historical Julius?
The amount of contemporary info about each would tend to support this suggestion. I just wonder why someone inventing a tool to use against the Jews would choose a reiteration of someone so famous and so recent. Why not someone new? Why not someone less famous? Why not someone more likely to have been forgotten by then? Why take such a risk of the whole deception falling over because people recognised the model?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:16 PM

Bran muffins might help.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:06 PM

Naw...it's me and almost everyone else on this forum, Clinton. Your lack of respect for people is your defining characteristic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM

"He clearly does not respect most other people."

It only looks like MOST to you cause you're on the list LH....


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:04 PM

Clinton's always happy. ;-) Just ask him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:01 PM

But he's happy Little Hawk !


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:48 PM

Clinton respects himself tremendously, so that puts a high value on what he has to say...in his opinion. He clearly does not respect most other people. Hardly any other people, if his behaviour here is any indication. Accordinly, what they say is not worth shit to Clinton.

And that is why he is so popular and well loved at Mudcat Cafe... ;-)

I'm not here to prove Jesus existed, Clinton, because it's neither provable nor unprovable. I'm here to identify you as the jerk you are, because it pleases me to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:55 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: ClintonHammond - PM
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:57 PM

My motivations are not at issue in this thread..... "


So why should Little Hawk's ? Ya can't have it both ways eh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

"they both ought to find something useful to do instead"

So Whiskey Tango Foxtrot are you doing here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:41 PM

I have NEVER attempted to prove Jesus existed, AR282. I think people who try to prove he did AND people who try to prove he didn't BOTH have a bee in their bonnets, and they both ought to find something useful to do instead.

I don't KNOW if he existed or not, neither do you, nor does Clinton, and not one of us has any means of proving it one way or the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM

282RA - Have you run into a book called "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman ? You might enjoy it. I just finished it last week. Interesting reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: 282RA
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:34 PM

Btw, did any of the Jesus-was-historical freaks ever prove their case on this thread?

No?

Then I hereby declare victory!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:13 PM

So - I didn't know you were into necrophilia. Whatever floats your boat as they say. But if you can't stay on topic just say so.

PS - Look up infallible in your dictionary - even in Canada it's not about erectile disfunction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:05 PM

"He does tend to think he's infallible doesn't he"

Not at all... but yer mom thinks I do pretty well.... better than you ever did, if she's to be trusted


:-P


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:02 PM

Well, that's the natural compassion of the mighty seeping through his pores, Wesley. He just can't help making the occasional compassionate gesture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:57 PM

He does tend to think he's infallible doesn't he ? I'm just glad that he's will to rub elbows with us mere mortals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:48 PM

He's his own biggest fan, Wesley. He doesn't have to take questions. He's kind of like the Pope in that respect... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:47 PM

Little Hawk - Sorry - Clinton isn't taking questions at this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:44 PM

Unlike you, Clinton, I am not trying to prove anything...

You're the one who appears to consider it his duty to prove a negative proposition here...namely, that Jesus never existed.

And like others, I can only wonder about the source of your motivation in that regard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:34 PM

"we NEVER have thread drift and threads are always about whatever you want them to be about"

Now you're hearing things.... where did I say any of that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:33 PM

And we NEVER have thread drift and threads are always about whatever you want them to be about....

You're sounding kind of godlike to me......

Where do we send our tithes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM

indeed! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:24 PM

Yup - you're happy AND right.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:57 PM

My motivations are not at issue in this thread.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:32 PM

Sorry - I thought you were able to answer my question about your own motivations. Carry on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM

Wo says I do care what others think?

If no one posted here, what would be the point of this place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:02 PM

I'm happy that you're happy.

Now - why do you care so much ? Are you really expecting to change people's minds ? Is it important to you that we all think the same way as you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM

" Would you rather be right - or happy ?"

I'm BOTH! LOL

:-P
(jealous? I knew you would be...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM

Clinton - why do you care ? Those who believe are going to continue to believe. Those that don't - won't. No one one is going to have a "revelation" and say - "Oh crap - Clinton's right - I've been wrong all along. Thank goodness he set me straight".

There's no scoreboard - no points to be gained or lost. And nothing to win. Why does everyone here like to argue so much?

Would you rather be right - or happy ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:19 PM

Which, when you boil it down, doesn't really prove much. Julius Caesar was a world leader and of course there would be a lot written about him by both contemporaries and historians. Add to that that if the world leader kept journals, those journals would be entered as one of the main historical sources.

For a period of three years, Jesus (or Yeshua, or Joshua) was an itinerant, unauthorized (unordained) rabbi. He didn't lead any armies or conquer any counties or do much of anything else to attract the attention of contemporary journalists. He just wandered around in a small area of the Near East talking to people. What is known about him comes mostly from the followers he attracted and by the time it was written down, had been "folk processed" quite a bit.

Without implying anything about my own religious beliefs—or lack thereof—I do belief that Jesus (or Yeshua, or Joshua, or something similar) was a real historical person. Mortal, not some "divine" manifestation (well, that should be a clue as to my religious beliefs, or again, lack thereof). His basic message was that we ought to be nicer to each other and help those who need help.

If he showed up again today, not in a flying chariot with a flaming sword, but just wandering around and talking to people with the same message, the Powers That Be would probably crucify him just as they did before.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:05 PM

Lame excuse LH... just like most of your blather


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM

Oh, joy. It's back.

Julius Caesar moved in high places. He was a politician. He commanded armies and ruled an empire. It is never hard finding written evidence for the past existence of such people.

Jesus, according to the stories we have heard about him, never sought or held such positions of worldly power, wasn't rich, didn't enter politics, commanded no armies, ruled no earthly empires, and hung out with poor people.

And you're surprised there isn't much written historical evidence available at this point about his earthly activities??????

LOL!!! It's always like that with such people. They go mostly unnoticed by the movers and shakers of this world who are concerned with money, material goods, physical pleasures, and temporal power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:43 PM

Bock to the ORIGINAL topic


When you look for the existence of Jesus outside the bible you get two examples. You have Tacitus who makes mention of him in 115 AD, and Josephus, who mentions him in 70 A.D. Both references are nearly a half-century from the time Jesus was purported to be stirring up the dust in the holy land. Not a great track record there.

Compare and contrast to that which is available by Julius Caesar, including his own account of the Gaulish Campaign (De Bellum Gallico) in SEVEN SODDING VOLUMES (the eighth was added later by Aulus Hirtius). These are books by the man himself. Add in Livy (We have 35 of his purported 142 books) and you begin to get just a slight idea of how much hard historical evidence we have as the old JC and the triumvirate sunshine band.

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence documenting the existence Julius Caesar compared to the rather paltry evidence documenting Jesus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:46 PM

Actualy I now have some doubt. Sori seems to argue with far more fluidity that AR282. So, my initial supposition is probably incorrect. If so, sorry, Sori.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:43 PM

Is Guest AR282 also Guest Sori?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:34 PM

AR282. I have already said you don't need to keep quoting me. Why do it?

I am not asking you to do anything. You asked me to attack your argument. Remember? Look back up the thread if you can't. My attack is that your argument is so full of holes it is not even worth the effort of looking up your quotes. You aksed me to attack it. Why do you have a problem when I do?

As to sticking to point of the thread you have managed to stay remarkably well away from it for a long time. Just look at it. Dead simple. Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? It is up there in black and white. I have tried to explain over and over again that there is no fact or fiction about either. It is all supposition. That IS the point. Neither theroy is right or wrong. What is wrong is the assertion that either was or was not this or that. The whole point is no-one knows.

Oh - and opening another thread on the same topic in another name does not validate your argument. Transparaent tactic.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:40 PM

What dianavan said!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:31 PM

AR282 - Constantine realized that instead of persecuting Christians, he could use the Vatican as a means of controlling the masses. That doesn't mean that Jesus did or didn't exist. The proof that he existed is, of course, speculative.

It is quite possible that when centralizing the power of the Holy Roman Catholic church, and consolidating the Old Testament with the New Testement, stories were borrowed from mythology and oral history to create the New Testament as we know it today. We also know that shortly thereafter schisms resulted in a separation of the Roman church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. In additon, we know that the Celtic church resisted Roman rule for a long time. What we see is a major shift from a lunar calendar to a solar calendar. A shift from a matrilineal belief system to a patrilineal belief system with the son of God replacing the Earth Goddesses of the pagans.

Following this, of course, was the first recorded case of genocide. The Cathars of Southern France were also Christian but were slaughtered as heretics. They did not believe in the central authority of the Vatican or that Christianity needed a central authority. I'm not sure if they even believed in Jesus. Yes, they were Christians but did not believe in the accumulation of wealth (the Vatican), the so-called communion (they were vegetarian) or celibacy. In fact, many of the Vatican's attempts to rule Christendom were rejected. Thats why so many were killed during the Crusades and the Inquisition.

That doesn't mean that Jesus did not exist or that Christianity is invalid. I can go along with the possibility that Jesus did not exist as we have come to know him but I still believe that what remains of Christianity is still valid if you take away the central authority of the church and the hodge-podge of so-called historical accounts of the life of Jesus.

You are free to believe what you wish. As for me, I'm an unbaptized Christian who understands and knows the spirit of Christ. Jesus doesn't have a lot to do with my faith or my system of beliefs. I do not respect the so-called Holy Roman Catholic Church or any of the churches that are essentially offsprings.

Why do you think that the image of Jesus the Shepherd is so prevalent? Those that follow Jesus and the teachings of the church are also referred to as the flock. I refuse to be a member of a flock of sheep. This is exactly what Rome and the Vatican intended. What is amazing to me is that although Rome has fallen, the church remains. That tells me that the church is more powerful than any secular means of control.

We are all free to believe what we wish but if you try to cram it down someone's throat you are considered to be psychotic.

Time to give it up. Believe what you must but I know that science does not explain everything and because of that I have spent my life studying different religions. Faith begins where science ends and we all need something to lean on. This will never change.


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