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BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?

GUEST,Tunesmith 21 May 06 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Janine 21 May 06 - 10:42 AM
GUEST 21 May 06 - 11:20 AM
bobad 21 May 06 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,AR282 21 May 06 - 11:31 AM
autolycus 21 May 06 - 12:34 PM
Don Firth 21 May 06 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 21 May 06 - 01:06 PM
Peace 21 May 06 - 01:43 PM
Wolfgang 21 May 06 - 02:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 21 May 06 - 02:11 PM
Little Hawk 21 May 06 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 21 May 06 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,AR282 21 May 06 - 02:51 PM
Don Firth 21 May 06 - 03:09 PM
SINSULL 21 May 06 - 03:17 PM
artbrooks 21 May 06 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,AR282 21 May 06 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,AR282 21 May 06 - 03:41 PM
Don Firth 21 May 06 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,AR282 21 May 06 - 03:48 PM
Don Firth 21 May 06 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,AR282 21 May 06 - 04:05 PM
Peace 21 May 06 - 04:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 May 06 - 04:13 PM
Peace 21 May 06 - 04:14 PM
Don Firth 21 May 06 - 04:24 PM
Peace 21 May 06 - 04:33 PM
Don Firth 21 May 06 - 05:31 PM
Little Hawk 21 May 06 - 05:46 PM
Haruo 21 May 06 - 06:03 PM
Peace 21 May 06 - 06:04 PM
Haruo 21 May 06 - 06:10 PM
Peace 21 May 06 - 06:10 PM
Haruo 21 May 06 - 06:22 PM
Peace 21 May 06 - 06:26 PM
Little Hawk 21 May 06 - 06:35 PM
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Rapparee 21 May 06 - 08:14 PM
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Little Hawk 21 May 06 - 08:28 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 May 06 - 08:33 PM
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Subject: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 May 06 - 10:34 AM

On today's BBC TV programme "The Heaven and Earth Show", presenter Gloria Hunniford stated that there is more historical evidence to back up the existance of Jesus than there is for the existance of Julius Caesar. Surely, that can't be correct! Any comments?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,Janine
Date: 21 May 06 - 10:42 AM

That's nonsense as anyone who has struggled through Ceasar's Gallic Wars during their Latin Lessons will tell you.

Janine


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 06 - 11:20 AM

Seek and ye shall find Guest


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 06 - 11:25 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: GUEST,AR282 - PM
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:31 PM

>>You don't have a clue whether Jesus existed or not, nobody can prove it one way or another,<<

Oh, but we have many clues. What you have been repeatedly asked for but have totally failed to supply are your sources for your spurious claims that there are thousands of historical references to Jesus made in his day. This is utterly false. There isn't ONE, sir, not a single solitary reference. To prove me wrong please feel free to produce it.

And it isn't merely the breadth of the silence concerning Jesus in his day, it is the depth to which that silence reaches. By saying no one of his time or the generation after him wrote of him, we're talking Claudius, Livy, Tacitus, Suetonius, Philo, Josephus, Pliny, Seneca and so on. That's a pretty damning silence concerning someone for whom the entire earth supposedly went dark upon his death (because Christ is the sun as I said before) because that little episode isn't mentioned by any of them. In fact, almost nothing about Jesus other than the religious beliefs current at that time were mentioned by these men.

>>and your opinion won't change anything.<<

You have no more idea of that being true than anyone else. Who knows who might read what I just wrote and decide to check it out for themselves? There was a time when I took for granted that Jesus must have existed even if not as demigod. But once certain writers got through to me that there was no evidence of a Jesus of Nazareth (or a Paul for that matter) anywhere but in Christian literature, it awakened something in me without a doubt. So I wouldn't say I might change something. I don't expect the entire Christian edifice to tumble into a heap but my words could have some effect. That all I can reasonably hope for. I don't want anyone to believe me. Check it out. Let us know what you learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 May 06 - 11:31 AM

There are no historical references to Jesus from his time or the generation after. Anyone who says there is, show me.

As for Julius, he likely existed in some form but has also become "heavenized."


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: autolycus
Date: 21 May 06 - 12:34 PM

You don't want to believe all you read on television.

   Were there facts to back up Ms.Hunniford? Otherwise anybody can assert anything





    Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 06 - 12:38 PM

"There are no historical references to Jesus from his time or the generation after. Anyone who says there is, show me."

Okay. HERE.

I make no brief for his supposed divinity, but there are contemporary historical references to a "Jesus" (Greek translation of the name Joshua), or of a Joshua or Yeshua bar Joseph ("son of Joseph") who was a teacher, had a number of followers, according to stories (unsubstantiated) performed wonders, and who made a sufficient pain in the neck of himself that he was executed by crucifixion.

Make of it what you will.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:06 PM

Of course, Josephus was talking years after the events. He is reporting second hand. The sort of evidence that would be thrown out in a court of law. We all know our "urban myths" can take on a life of their own in a very short time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:43 PM

"Tacitus wrote [in 64 CE]:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}"

If there was no Christ, then someone a whole lot like him caused a bunch of people to become Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 06 - 02:02 PM

Historicity of Jesus (link to Wikipedia article)

The lack of a historicity of Caesar article in Wikipedia shows beyond doubt that the historicity of both is not treated as equal.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 06 - 02:11 PM

I hope no one believes everything they read on Wiki.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 02:14 PM

Ha! I'm going to leave the rest of you alone to argue about all this for a change to your heart's content if it turns your crank...

(Doesn't matter what anyone's opinion on here is about it anyway.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 May 06 - 02:42 PM

Of course, Tacitus was writing 30 odd years after the supposed death of Christ,which is enough time for a myth to be developed; and it wasn't Jesus - if we take the Bible chronology as read, but Paul who created the Christian Church. And just because there are Christians, it doesn't mean there has to be a Christ. There are many pagan relgions that had millions of followers, worshiping "gods" who - most of us - now believe never existed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 May 06 - 02:51 PM

>>Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST.<<

Please tell us what kind of Jew Josephus was to hold this view. this is Christian view being expressed and certainly not a Jewish one.

>>When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM,<<

What divine prophet foretold this? Book, chapter and verse please. And what Jews accept this passage as referring to Jesus?

>>and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).<<

Being that Josephus would have written this only a short time after this Christ has supposedly walked, well less than a century, it is odd how he remarks on the longevity of his followers as though centuries had passed.

That would be because centuries had passed. This passage was unknown to anyone before the 3rd century when Eusebius quoted it. That tells us who it was that inserted it since Eusebius was of utterly dubious character as a Christian historian. Origen scoured Josephus and never mentioned this passge and it would be utterly inconceivable that he could have possibly overlooked it.

And after devoting some 40 chapters of this work to King Herod, for whom he expressed loathing, Josephus raves about this amazing, fantastic man so incredible that he ought not be called a man who performed the most amazing feats and even rose from the dead and fulfilled scripture!!!!!! And he tells us this is a paragraph and never mentions it again.

It's an obvious and very clumsy forgery. This is easily the most referred to "evidence" that Christians have and it has been long disproven. What else do you have?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:09 PM

Well, as far as I know, we don't have a birth certificate and a stack of income tax returns from his employment as a carpenter, but it strikes me as a bit far-fetched to assert that a bunch of people suddenly decided to get together and form a religion spontaneously, without someone to lay down a few ideas and principles to initiate the whole process. Whether you call him "Jesus" or "Joshua" or "Yeshua" or "Fred," it seems a bit unlikely to me that this kerfuffle, that, incidentally, has lasted for some 2,000 years, got started without some central figure to start the ball rolling.

Now, what I'm saying here says nothing about divinity or supernatural powers

Then, when a whole bunch of folks get together afterward and wrote about this "Fred," or whatever his name was:   four Gospels, the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, and a whole bunch of epistles scrawled by a guy named Paul—not to forget that there were actually about twenty Gospels (works about "Fred," what he taught, and some of his adventures) that didn't make the cut when a council of geezers decided arbitrarily to approve certain writings, put them together in a single book, exclude a whole bunch of other stuff on the same subject, and call it The Holy Bible—while lots of people started wandering about and spouting the same stuff as this alleged "Fred" spouted, and the movement gradually expanded to include hundreds of millions of people, one tends to get the idea that maybe there might actually have been a "Fred." The guy may not have looked like he does in the Renaissance paintings and he may not have actually walked on water, but it makes a helluva lot more sense to think that he actually existed than it does to try to cobble up a theory as to how it could all have got started without him.

Believing that Jesus (or Fred) actually existed as a living, breathing person does not mean that one necessarily believes that the stories about his virgin birth, miracles, reappearance after his execution, or physical ascension into Heaven (head for the Moon and take a right turn) are true. Or that he is "the Son of God" or "God Incarnate" any more than any other person might be considered.

Personally, I tend to believe that someone named Jesus (or something similar) actually did exist, and said a lot of things that inspired a whole bunch of people. I am deeply skeptical about a lot of the rest of the details. And I also think that many of the people who came later missed his central message, cobbled together a lot of garbage about who he was and what he did, and generally made a total cock-up of what is now called "Christianity."

Tell me: other than a few writings, what evidence is there that Socrates existed?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:17 PM

From GUESTAR282:
"And it isn't merely the breadth of the silence concerning Jesus in his day, it is the depth to which that silence reaches. By saying no one of his time or the generation after him wrote of him, we're talking Claudius, Livy, Tacitus, Suetonius, Philo, Josephus, Pliny, Seneca and so on. That's a pretty damning silence concerning someone for whom the entire earth supposedly went dark upon his death (because Christ is the sun as I said before) because that little episode isn't mentioned by any of them. In fact, almost nothing about Jesus other than the religious beliefs current at that time were mentioned by these men."

Tacitus, Book 15 Chapter 44 (at least in my Oxford edition) mentions Christ by name and says he was executed by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.
"auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat;"

He also refers to Christianity as a superstition. Living human candles screaming in agony at banquets? Would put a kink in my evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:24 PM

Guest, AR282: did you catch the part in Don's link that said the words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:38 PM

>>Well, as far as I know, we don't have a birth certificate and a stack of income tax returns from his employment as a carpenter, but it strikes me as a bit far-fetched to assert that a bunch of people suddenly decided to get together and form a religion spontaneously, without someone to lay down a few ideas and principles to initiate the whole process. Whether you call him "Jesus" or "Joshua" or "Yeshua" or "Fred," it seems a bit unlikely to me that this kerfuffle, that, incidentally, has lasted for some 2,000 years, got started without some central figure to start the ball rolling.<<

It certainly did. His name was Constantine. Without him, there would be no Christian religion today. It would have been another interesting Judaic offshoot that ran its course and died with the rest of them that were as quirky and off-the-wall as Christianity was at that time.

>>Now, what I'm saying here says nothing about divinity or supernatural powers<<

The name "Jesus" means "savior." There was a savior movement--that's all it was. Palestine and the diaspora afterward were rife with these things. Aaparently, the group that persevered combined the savior with the messiah--managed to equate them and, hence, Jesus Christ, the Savior-Messiah. The savior was no more historical than the messiah. He was never a historical man made into a divinity. He was always a divinity made into a man.

>>Then, when a whole bunch of folks get together afterward and wrote about this "Fred," or whatever his name was:   four Gospels, the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, and a whole bunch of epistles scrawled by a guy named Paul—not to forget that there were actually about twenty Gospels (works about "Fred," what he taught, and some of his adventures) that didn't make the cut when a council of geezers decided arbitrarily to approve certain writings, put them together in a single book, exclude a whole bunch of other stuff on the same subject, and call it The Holy Bible<<

Now you're referring to Constantine. He called the Council of Nicea where all this happened. You cannot remove his influence or you remove Christianity.

And when you mention the four gospels as well as the apocrypha writings and the Nag Hammadi Library, etc. as some kind of proof Jesus existed, you may want to take note of the extremely different views and character ascribed to this Jesus and then tell me how he could be historical. The Nag Hammadi Library is clearly documenting a historical Jesus, which is probably why they were hidden away in the desert in the first place--to protect them from soldiers doing the bidding of the Roman Church which was championing the historical Jesus and determined to get rid of competing views. There's no reason such writings would have been buried in the desert--and without them, we'd have no real Gnostic writings.

As for Paul, did he believe in a historical Christ? Certainly not from what I see or perhaps you'd be kind enough to piece together the life of Christ as described by Paul. Perhaps you could explain how Paul journeyed to Jerusalem as recounted in Galatians and never once called it the city where his lord was crucified. Did Paul mention a virgin birth? No. Bethlehem? No. Nazareth? No. Miracles? No. A ministry? No. A mother named Mary? No. A record of Christ's travels? No. A collection of Christ's sayings? No. Since he mentioned Christ rising from the grave, did tell us where Christ's tomb can be found? No. Did he even mention that Christ was a contemporary? No. He put Christ in NO TIME FRAME WHATSOEVER. He clearly states he learned his gospel from no man and made references to meeting Christ in the 3rd heaven. A vision. His entire knowledge of Christ was taken from a vision and came from no one and nowhere else and Paul himself says so.

>>Believing that Jesus (or Fred) actually existed as a living, breathing person does not mean that one necessarily believes that the stories about his virgin birth, miracles, reappearance after his execution, or physical ascension into Heaven (head for the Moon and take a right turn) are true. Or that he is "the Son of God" or "God Incarnate" any more than any other person might be considered.<<

Then why bother? It's the same as saying no such person existed.

>>Personally, I tend to believe that someone named Jesus (or something similar) actually did exist, and said a lot of things that inspired a whole bunch of people. I am deeply skeptical about a lot of the rest of the details. And I also think that many of the people who came later missed his central message, cobbled together a lot of garbage about who he was and what he did, and generally made a total cock-up of what is now called "Christianity."<<

There was no Jesus because his history is fraudulent and was an obvious invention of diaspora Jews. The gospel writers did not know the geography of Palestine making Jesus' travels through there impossible as they relate it which means it didn't happen. Jesus argues with Pharisees quoting verbatim the Greek bible which Pharisees would neve accept over the Hebrew but they don't even argue this point with him. Obviously, the writers didn't know Hebrew which is typical of most Jews in the diaspora. It was a religion invented in the diaspora and set in Palestine where the evidence for its historicity is incredibly lacking.

>>Tell me: other than a few writings, what evidence is there that Socrates existed?<<

I don't know but when people start calling him the son of god and telling me I must worship him and give him my money and vote for republican candidates because its what he wants me to do, I'll start looking into his life as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:41 PM

>>Tacitus, Book 15 Chapter 44 (at least in my Oxford edition) mentions Christ by name and says he was executed by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.<<

All he did was explain what Christians believed. He's allowed to do that and not be accused of believing the story, isn't he? In fact, he didn't believe the story and he made that clear. So, his info obviously did not come from historical sources but from Christian literature he could have gotten anywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:41 PM

Yeah, Art, I thought the ALL CAPS thing should have made what was being said clear as a bell, but apparently not. One should really read carefully.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:48 PM

>>Guest, AR282: did you catch the part in Don's link that said the words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ?<<

All they did was remove the outlandish claims and say, "With the rest of this we make our case." And I say, how did you arbitrarily decide to remove some statements and not others??? Once again, even if the softened passage in the original writings of Josephus, why did no one mention this softened passage before it got embellished? You still cannot account for every Christian scholar overlooked until Eusebius. Clearly, the entire passage is fraudulent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:59 PM

AR282, I think you need to get your hands on a book entitled The Closing of the Western Mind : The Rise of Faith and The Fall of Reason, by Charles Freeman. Freeman is a thoroughly grounded historian, and he is NOT advocating for Christianity. Anything but. He starts with the philosophical and scientific advances of the Greeks, then covers the whole development of Christianity, including Constantine's so-called conversion, which allowed a body of belief to take on the power of secular law, and what followed, which was not very nice. Definitely a warning for our current times!

As I say, this book is not a brief for Christianity (hardly!), but it will help you get your rather scrambled historical facts straight.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:05 PM

There's nothing scrambled about my facts. If there was, you'd quote something to prove it. Until you can do so, my facts stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:09 PM

So, uh, Julius Caesar didn't exist either?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:13 PM

I think if you're looking for proof, in a way, you've missed the point. the whole point of reason is to point you in the opposite direction of faith.

faith = a suspension of the scepticism and critical faculty that stands us in good stead in every other aspect of life.

rather in the same way the Hemingway said about courage in battle, being a suspension of our powers of imagination.

whether you suspend these great powers of reasoning and scepticism is very much up to you. But surely the whole business of doubting Thomas is a fair indication of what Jesus expected of us.

Finally (for this is heavy stuff for a bear of very little brain) Hemingway also said that there has never was an army that didn't run, fled the field of battle at some point.

Courage and faith, they aren't given to us all the time. Otherwise they wouldn't be a miracle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:14 PM

Hemingway also blew his brains out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:24 PM

"There's nothing scrambled about my facts. If there was, you'd quote something to prove it. Until you can do so, my facts stand."

AR282, I don't have the time to sit here and write a treatise for your enlightenment and edification. I've given you a source—the aforementioned book by Charles Freeman—for all the facts you need to unscramble your scrambled history. That's quote enough. And your "facts" are not facts at all, they're the results of your own prejudgments.

Get the bloody book and read it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:33 PM

Excellent essay here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 06 - 05:31 PM

(Hells Bells! I never thought I'd be arguing on this side of the fence!)

"I don't know but when people start calling him the son of god and telling me I must worship him and give him my money and vote for republican candidates because its what he wants me to do, I'll start looking into his life as well."

So don't!

What you're objecting to here is not some historical figure who may or may not have existed, but to a bunch of people who exist NOW. You're pulling a Dick Cheney. Be sure of your target before you pull the trigger.

Besides, if you (and the bleedin' Republicans!) knew anything at all about what this alleged person referred to as Jesus Christ is supposed to have taught (try Matthew 25:35-40 HERE as a sample), you'd know that the Republicans are the last outfit Jesus would want you to vote for.

Don Firth

(Are you even going to bother to look at the link? I didn't think so.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 05:46 PM

"What you're objecting to here is not some historical figure who may or may not have existed, but to a bunch of people who exist NOW."

Oh, yeah! LOL! Well said, Don! That oughta be carved in gold and glued to a bunch of people's foreheads for a month or two till they finally "get it", and find something else to bitch about endlessly instead. It's not like there aren't a few other things like that to choose from... ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Haruo
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:03 PM

What really solid evidence is there that anyone you haven't met "in the flesh" exists or existed? And what non-anecdotal evidence can you offer to prove even those you have met in the flesh exist(ed)? I certainly have no reason to believe "Guest AR282" exists in anything but name, and I have slightly stronger reason to believe Jesus was the Messiah of God foretold by prophets than to believe that "Guest AR282" read the source on Josephus before copypasting it. (Though my evidence for the former is private and that against the latter speculative.)

Obviously what one considers "historical evidence" is pertinent here; I would recommend the arguments in A Marginal Jew and Saint Saul to those seriously interested in the issues involved. Both authors are serious historians; the former is more committed to Christian tradition than the latter, but both argue as historians rather than as apologists. Personally, although I am a Christian believer, I find Akenson more persuasive than Meier.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:04 PM

I have to ask: Has anyone here ever actually met William Shakespeare?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Haruo
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:10 PM

No, but he has been prophesied.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:10 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Haruo
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:22 PM

Incidentally and only FWIW I find your (Peace's) "excellent essay" leaves much to be desired; it does, however, point out when Tacitus lived, which makes it clear that Tacitus did not write what was attributed to him earlier at the time alleged (i.e. he wrote after the turn of the century, not in the mid-60s). He was an historian, not a journalist.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:26 PM

Even the suggestion that history may not be as we believe sure can bring out the vitriolic side of some folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:35 PM

I'd guess that a great deal of real history was not as we believe it to be. Probably a good 50% of it. Everything is interpreted through the sujbective eyes and the blind spots and prejudices of whoever writes it down, and of those who repeat it in the generations after that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:03 PM

GUEST - I was responding to your claim that no one of Christ's generation or immediately after it, mentions his existence. You brought up Tacitus. I gave you a quote from Tacitus disproving your claim.

Tacitus does not say where his info came from. Can't help you there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:14 PM

If Yeshua of Nazareth died in 33 (and the date is flexible) then the Gospel of Mark, the earliest, was written about 37 years later.

Personally, I'd suggest a wait and see attitude. There is more coming out of Israel today than ever before -- and I'm talking about solid historical objects (including bodies). One new book (which I'm currently reading) is The Jesus Dynasty, in which the OT concept of the Messiah is pointed out to be not one person, but two: a descendant of the Levi priesthood and a descendant of the Davidic line; these descriptions fit the purported genealogy of John the Baptizer and Yeshua of Nazareth.

By the way, the term "Christ" is not and never has been the man's last name. It comes from the Greek, means "The Anointed One" and shares the same root as "chrism" and "charisma".


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:26 PM

And in that same ballpark, I used to have an upstairs neighbor who talked religion—a lot!! After one of his many diatribes, it occurred to me that he seemed to think that "Almighty" is God's first name. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:28 PM

Yes, "Christ" is a title of spiritual honour, not the man's name. It's like calling someone an Avatar or a Buddha or a Saviour or a Messiah or any number of other such words. His actual name was most likely Yeshua Ben-Joseph, in the language of the time. Names tend to change a lot as they move from one language and culture to another. It's "Jesus" in Spanish, for instance, but they pronounce it "Hay-soos" (if you're English-speaking). It's "Jesu" in a number of languages, and that's usually pronounced "Yay-soo" in English terms.

Yeshua would have been "yesh-oo-ah" in English terms.

And all those would be just approximations of the name, in all probability.

The only way to know for sure is go back there if you can figure out how to do time travel. If not, you are engaging in speculation, guesswork (educated or otherwise) and the repetitive playing out of your own emotional prejudices on the issue (for or against).

That's why most of these debates here about it are mainly hot air, and yield a lot more heat than light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:33 PM

">>Tell me: other than a few writings, what evidence is there that Socrates existed?<<

I don't know but when people start calling him the son of god and telling me I must worship him and give him my money and vote for republican candidates because its what he wants me to do, I'll start looking into his life as well. "

LOL - I'm going to try to remember that quote... :-)

"There is more coming out of Israel today than ever before -- and I'm talking about solid historical objects (including bodies)."

You think we might find his... wait on a minute there...

One, Two, OK, both legs are stll there...


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:47 PM

Hmmmm. And just how would a person go about giving their money to Jesus????? ;-D The real Jesus himself, I mean. Not easily done. I don't think he would want it anyway. He doesn't appear to have gone around soliciting money from people when he was doing his 3 years work in Palestine...

Odd how hungry some of his so-called followers are for the folding stuff nowadays! But then, they're no different from many who don't believe in that respect, are they? It's money, money, money all the way around, regardless whether people are pushing organized religion or some other "ism" they are busy promoting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:53 PM

Pilate's letters to Seneca.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:56 PM

>>What you're objecting to here is not some historical figure who may or may not have existed, but to a bunch of people who exist NOW.<<

To both actually. If you can prove Jesus is the son of god and that I am supposed to worship him, I will. But you can't even get that far because you can't prove he existed. Ergo, I don't even accept that much until you prove it.

Now you're asking me about Socrates, well, guess what? I don't care about Socrates and don't know much about the man. But if you were trying to shove him down my throat, then I might care.

>>You're pulling a Dick Cheney. Be sure of your target before you pull the trigger.<<

Ad hominem attack. Invalid me boy. Either disprove my evidence or admit you been owned, baby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,PMS
Date: 21 May 06 - 09:02 PM

Hello, Guest. Could you please use the word mouthy as your name so that people don't get us mixed up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 09:05 PM

Why would you assume that people who think Jesus really existed are necessarily trying to convince you that he "is the son of god and that I am supposed to worship him" or anything like that?

Sounds like setting up the old straw man argument to me...

I bet you that a whole lot of people who believe that Jesus really existed do not adhere to those conditions in the least. I know some do...but others don'ts. I know I don't. Assuming that everyone who believes he was a real physical, historical man wants to "shove him down" your throat is an incorrect assumption, I assure you.

I no more require that you worship Jesus than I would require that you worship Shakespeare, Robin Hood, Attila the Hun, Buddha, Krishna, Jack the Ripper, or a variety of other people who may or may not have existed in what the way they are reputed to have existed.

You assume that your presumed "opponents" on this thread are all, and must all be Christian religous fanatics (in your view). That assumption is your error.

I see Jesus as an inspired man who very likely existed and went around preaching in Palestine, and had a big effect on a number of people. I don't see him as someone who is the "only Son of God" or someone whom you are obliged to worship. If you don't want to worship anyone, no sweat! I don't care. ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 May 06 - 09:07 PM

AR282 told us, in part:

The name "Jesus" means "savior."

That's news to me. What's your citation for that etymology?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 May 06 - 09:08 PM

>>What really solid evidence is there that anyone you haven't met "in the flesh" exists or existed? And what non-anecdotal evidence can you offer to prove even those you have met in the flesh exist(ed)? I certainly have no reason to believe "Guest AR282" exists in anything but name<<

Right. My posts type and post themselves.

>>and I have slightly stronger reason to believe Jesus was the Messiah of God foretold by prophets than to believe that "Guest AR282" read the source on Josephus before copypasting it. (Though my evidence for the former is private and that against the latter speculative.)<<

Appealing to the upper case/lower case issue isn't going to help you. I said it once already but I'll repeat:

Show me how it was determined that the upper case of the Josephus quote was added to the lower case words already supposedly there. Name one single historian or commentator prior to Eusebius who quotes any part of that passage--even one single sentnce or even a partial sentence. Nothing. There is nothing to help you. Ergo, until you can answer my charge, you are blowing smoke and deluding only yourselves. Of course, if you're right, show me your evidence. You do have evidence, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 06 - 09:09 PM

The most common incorrect assumption many people make when they argue about something like what's in this thread is this one:

They assume the other people are idiots, and must believe in something totally stupid.

They are almost always 100% wrong about that...regardless of which side of the debate they choose to be on.

That kind of superficial, disrespectful attitude toward other people's intelligence is mostly what turns discussions around here into a sorry joke, rather than into something worth pursuing.


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