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BS: People moaning about windmills

Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 17 Mar 06 - 08:25 AM
jacqui.c 17 Mar 06 - 08:32 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 17 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM
Rapparee 17 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM
MaineDog 17 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM
Georgiansilver 17 Mar 06 - 10:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Mar 06 - 10:50 AM
Strollin' Johnny 17 Mar 06 - 10:53 AM
The Villan 17 Mar 06 - 10:56 AM
Georgiansilver 17 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM
Rapparee 17 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM
Joe Offer 17 Mar 06 - 12:29 PM
Bert 17 Mar 06 - 12:36 PM
Les in Chorlton 17 Mar 06 - 12:41 PM
Bert 17 Mar 06 - 12:55 PM
Kaleea 17 Mar 06 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 06 - 02:23 PM
Don Firth 17 Mar 06 - 02:44 PM
SunnySister 17 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Mar 06 - 03:07 PM
Little Robyn 17 Mar 06 - 03:09 PM
Geoff the Duck 17 Mar 06 - 05:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Mar 06 - 05:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 06 - 05:58 PM
SINSULL 17 Mar 06 - 06:43 PM
gnomad 17 Mar 06 - 08:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 06 - 06:21 AM
Liz the Squeak 18 Mar 06 - 06:26 AM
Skipjack K8 18 Mar 06 - 07:37 AM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Mar 06 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,DB 18 Mar 06 - 12:42 PM
Geoff the Duck 18 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM
Joe Offer 18 Mar 06 - 04:50 PM
akenaton 18 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 06 - 06:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM
Joe Offer 18 Mar 06 - 09:32 PM
NH Dave 18 Mar 06 - 09:52 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Mar 06 - 02:11 AM
Bert 19 Mar 06 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 06 - 04:03 AM
Cats 19 Mar 06 - 04:41 AM
Bunnahabhain 19 Mar 06 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 06 - 06:48 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 08:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 06 - 09:06 AM
Liz the Squeak 19 Mar 06 - 09:22 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 10:04 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:21 PM
open mike 19 Mar 06 - 03:34 PM
Shields Folk 19 Mar 06 - 03:37 PM
mg 19 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 04:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 06 - 05:16 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 05:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Mar 06 - 05:38 PM
The Fooles Troupe 19 Mar 06 - 06:05 PM
The Fooles Troupe 19 Mar 06 - 06:09 PM
Shields Folk 19 Mar 06 - 06:21 PM
pdq 19 Mar 06 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Mar 06 - 10:10 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Mar 06 - 12:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 06 - 03:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Mar 06 - 03:18 AM
Liz the Squeak 20 Mar 06 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,DB 20 Mar 06 - 04:22 AM
Donuel 20 Mar 06 - 01:30 PM
open mike 20 Mar 06 - 01:43 PM
Joe Offer 20 Mar 06 - 07:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 06 - 10:17 AM
Uncle_DaveO 21 Mar 06 - 10:44 AM
Don Firth 21 Mar 06 - 02:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 06 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,lateral thinker 22 Mar 06 - 08:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Mar 06 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,DB 23 Mar 06 - 07:33 AM
Bunnahabhain 23 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Cats 23 Mar 06 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,DB 23 Mar 06 - 02:24 PM
Cobble 23 Mar 06 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,dianavan 24 Mar 06 - 02:08 PM
Bunnahabhain 24 Mar 06 - 04:49 PM
Don Firth 24 Mar 06 - 05:15 PM
Bert 24 Mar 06 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,dianavan 24 Mar 06 - 06:46 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Mar 06 - 08:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 06 - 09:48 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Mar 06 - 11:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,Geoff the Duck - I got hungry and ate my coo 25 Mar 06 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,GtD. Again 25 Mar 06 - 09:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,GtD again 25 Mar 06 - 11:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 11:39 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Mar 06 - 08:13 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Mar 06 - 08:15 AM
GUEST 26 Mar 06 - 08:46 AM
Leadfingers 26 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM
Leadfingers 26 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Mar 06 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,DB 26 Mar 06 - 10:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Mar 06 - 07:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 06 - 02:44 AM
Michael B 27 Mar 06 - 03:05 AM
Bunnahabhain 27 Mar 06 - 03:44 AM
GUEST 27 Mar 06 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 06 - 04:06 AM
Geoff the Duck 27 Mar 06 - 04:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 06 - 07:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM
Liz the Squeak 27 Mar 06 - 08:23 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Mar 06 - 08:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 06 - 11:51 AM
JohnInKansas 27 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Mar 06 - 06:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 06 - 07:36 PM
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Subject: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 08:25 AM

Hello,
I mean them electric windmills waht they invented.
they was going to put some near here, but all the moany people started moaning and writing to local paper etc=
"blar, blar, blar, we dont want no windmills, they are rubbish etc".

they not rubbish, they get free electricity from the wind, them people just like to moan about stuff, and electric is running out and gettingf really expensive.
anyway = i am going to build one in my garden, if anyone moans, i will tell them to get lost.

gas is getting expensive as well, so i will make my own
i'm not sure waht its made of, but i will do some research.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 08:32 AM

You should get plenty of gas if you eat from the Curry Ship.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM

oh


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM

Many windmills are going up in the US, at least in the West.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: MaineDog
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM

Don't worry, whatever you do someone will complain about it.
And if you choose to do nothing, somebody will complain about that, too.
MD


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:36 AM

Those giant turbines have proved a failure in Germany and Holland inasmuch as they have not reached the output expected and are costly to maintain. O.K so we are aware of this...why are we buying them from Holland and Germany?............


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:50 AM

GS, whats the matter with you. does the class system which makes our country what it is, mean nothing?

sir nOrman is a world authority and we are lucky to have him here. behave yourself, and only speak when he says anything to you, like yes your Lordship, how very true! and cor blimey your honour you really told that Tony Blair and other stuff of an obsequious nature.

three cheers his lOrdship and the windmills and the dutch and the little boy with his finger in the dyke, and all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:53 AM

'the little boy with his finger in the dyke' - what a picture that conjures up! LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Villan
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:56 AM

oye carful what you say about the Dutch, or I will set my wife upon you. Just one Dutch look from her and your dead :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM

So why are you still alive Les?


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM

My grandma always said we were Dutch, not German. You wanna take on my grandma??


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:29 PM

We have lots of windmill farms here in California. especially along the ridges of the coastal mountains. I understand they're dangerous for birds, though.
Most of the time, the windmills are stopped. Don't know why.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bert
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:36 PM

If we generated all our power from windmills would the extra drag slow down the rotation of the earth?


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:41 PM

Yes but not much. The very existance of us makes the planet different it's just a matter of how different you think is ok.

Tilting at windmills? It is always easier to be against something than for something else isn't it?

Anyway, I am off to see the Hollies where the earth will stand still somewhere in the 1960's for a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bert
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:55 PM

Wouldn't it have to turn backwards to get to the Sixties?

Oh! perhaps not - The Hollies were ahead of their time.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 01:02 PM

Next time you drive through rural USA, spend some time on the backroads, & drive past a couple of abandoned farm houses. (They are numerous as the family farms have been driven out of busines--but that's a different thread.) If you stop & look around, you may see a tumbling down barn & out buildings, & an old frame house abandoned many years ago, but if you listen, you may notice an eerie creaking sound. Look upward, & you may see the motion of a decades old open back geared steel pumping windmill on a steel tower near the old house. The windmill is still turning.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 02:23 PM

You go for it and everyone else who can do this please do it. It is a good idea that sooner or later every household will automatically do. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 02:44 PM

Other that "unsightly" (which is a matter of opinion—beauty is a beauty does) and noisy (soft swooshing sounds, perhaps?), I keep hearing those who are opposed to wind farms saying that windmills are dangerous to birds. Well, now. . . .

If you do a little math and calculate the amount of air-space swept by the windmill vanes compared to the volume of the sky in general that is available to be used by flying birds, that, in itself, is pretty revealing. Then, calculating the amount of time that a flying bird would be occupying the disk of space swept out by the vanes and its chance of getting through that disk without actually getting whopped by a vane, that cuts the probabilities down even further. Not to mention that even in a high wind (which may keep birds grounded) the vanes don't turn so fast the that birds can't see them. Damned small chance of wind farms being dangerous to birds.

And an additional thought. If some children insist on playing in traffic, over a period of time, those children will be weeded out before they have a chance to breed, and what you have left are children who are smart enough to know that it's not a good idea to play in traffic. In addition to providing electrical power, wind farms may result in weeding out the more stupid birds.

But, in the light of Hitchcock's movie, The Birds, do we really want smarter birds?

Random thoughts on a slow day.

Don Firth

P. S.   I recall someone once saying, "We'll have solar power when, and only when, someone figures out a way to run a sunbeam through a meter."


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: SunnySister
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM

It's amazing to me that with such abundance of intelligent, creative and entrepreneurial people in the world that we can't build better windmills, solar panels and all manner of energy-creating environmental friendly (or at least not destructive) sources.

We have so much information from the past and a real mandate from the future to really get in there and create and produce viable alternative power sources. Even the weather is trying to "inspire" us to do more...

-- SunnySister- who is hoping we listen and try to reach our creative potential in all areas of energy and conservation


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:07 PM

Have you people no idea what these windmills are really for?

It is a known fact that the wind is created by trees waving their arms - Just look out on a windy day and you will see the trees waving their arms about like mad. Due to de-forestation there is now less trees than their ever was and therefore less wind.

The wind farms are an absolute MUST if we want to keep our level of wind at an optimum. And we have to do that - How else would these signals sail across the Atlantic? Answer me that, eh?

What worries me more is that due to us having to generate so much wind we are now running out of electricity to generate it with. I think a good start would be wave generators. Ban them all. Why on earth do we need more waves? Apart from Aussies and Californians who benefits? Cut the wave farms down and we would have electricity to spare.

Sheeesh. You lot who call yourselves scientists haven't a clue have you.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Little Robyn
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:09 PM

The authorities are trying to put up wind farms in NZ. We have some already but the moaners are saying they're too ugly and 'Not in my backyard!'
I think they're fascinating and it's a much better option than going nuclear. NZ is still nuclear free but there are people who want to change that.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 05:28 PM

Stick 'em in my back yard with pleasure.
I think they are one of the most graceful things around.
Used to go with my old mate Jacko up to Ogden Water above Bradford. They've got a farm of them there, we used to take bread to throw to feed them......

Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 05:56 PM

I'm with Geoff on this one. I could see myself in a deckchair, siting watching them and soaking up the sun.

They are very soothing to me and I can't imagine being stressed around them.

Answer to the Nimbys? Paint the tower brown, and the vanes green and say, with conviction, "What windfarm? All I see is some oddly shaped trees".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 05:58 PM

I saw an interesting suggestion on site called half-bakery. The idea was that they could start combining wind-turbines with the pylons that carry power wround. That way instead of extra windmill towers and people getting uppity about what they look like, there'd just be more interesting looking towers in places where there already are pylons.

Personally I rather like the look of wind turbines. I'm sure a lot of the people who object to them would have objected to traditional windmills if they had been around when they were going up. The stuff about danger to birds sounds a bit phony to me - those turbines don't look as if they are going round all that fast, and birds used to manage to cope with the old windmills pretty well.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 06:43 PM

Welcome back, jOhn. I saw "People moaning" and I knew it was you.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: gnomad
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 08:06 PM

Yup, I saw "People moaning" and came to the same conclusion, only it seemed too pleasing a prospect to be true.

I like the turbines too. OK, they may be less efficient than they might be, but that simply means they need a bit of tuning/development.

I wonder about the numerous disused windmills which dot the country. In many cases I am sure that with new sails and something (presumably a generator) for them to drive they could again provide a useful contribution to the country's needs, and I have yet to meet someone who actively dislikes windmills.

There's a hostage to fortune, "Come out, Come out, Wherever you are!"


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 06:21 AM

I think that the hills look more lovely without concrete turbines.
Britain is small and heavily urbanised.
Our remaining unspoilt landscape is too precious for industrial power generation.
There are alternatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 06:26 AM

If you want cheap gas or wind power, just hook Manitas up to a machine and feed him guinness... it was like bloody hurricane season last night!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 07:37 AM

I like your thinking, Bert. If we can slow the rotation of the globe by windmill resistance, we can probably get another three hours into the day, and then we'll all be able to complete the list of jobs for the day, and live 12.5% longer. Utterly brilliant thinking, man!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 08:01 AM

AS the earth has been slowing down, the moon has been getting closer.

Chicken Little was Right!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 12:42 PM

My theory is that politicians don't give a shit about global warming etc. but people keep moaning about it (sometimes the same people who moan about windmills). In order to placate the moaners the politicians give the go-ahead to build sodding great, HIGHLY VISIBLE, windmills. These are completely useless but they provide big profits for windmill builders, who are the sort of people that the politicians are really working for. The windmills spoil the view but the politicians don't give a sod about that as there are no profits in views (well there are, in terms of tourism, but realising that involves joined-up-thinking which the politicians can't do).


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM

The big problem with windmills on hills is they only stick about 5 or 6 there. Not enough to produce the quantity of power needed. Ther ought to be forests of them.
We have the M1 running 200 miles up the country M4 running a similar distance across. They are already eyesores. Build the wind turbines along the central reservations.
As long as they produce more energy in total than it costs to make them, they would be worth having.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 04:50 PM

Here in California, the wind farms have lots of windmills - there must be more than a hundred at Altamont Pass (near Livermore, site of the infamous Dec 1969 rock concert). Altamont is apparently a serious hazard for raptors (see here -click). The other wind farms I know are at Pacheco Pass (between Fresno and Monterey) and Tehachapi Pass (between Bakersfield and Barstow). I'm sure there are others.

It might seem that windmills would be a negligible hazard to birds, but a concentration of windmills can do a lot of harm to a migrating flock of birds - many of the passes where we have wind farms, are on major flyways. The passes concentrate the wind currents, which would seem to make them good for both wind farms and for bird migration - a dangerous combination.

-Joe Offer-
This article explains how Altamont is an exception, and that the usual loss of bird life may be negligible.

Also see this article.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

I'm amazed to find myself in agreement with Keith!!

What he said was bang on , but the alternatives which he mentions will almost certainly be different from the alternatives which I visualise.

I should think that Keith will be a supporter of nuclear power, whereas I would like to see a start made on cutting energy production and use...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 06:50 PM

I think one problem is the people designing wind turbines are too hooked on the idea that things have to be shiny and modern looking. I've no doubt that it'd be possible without much trouble, and without losing efficiency, to vary the way they looked, in ways that would make them much more appealing to people who don't much like shiny and modern looking.

Of course the people who do like shiny and modern would probably object to that. But there's no reason they all have to look the same. After all, the old windmills came in all kinds of different shapes and sizes and design.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM

Pictures of windmills and windturbines. All the variation you could wish for.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 09:32 PM

The typical American Aeromotor windmill looks like this (click). Aeromotor still makes windmills in San Angelo, Texas. Gee, I wonder if they were there when I lived in San Angelo....

I live in an old farm house on a ridge (2,300 feet elevation) in the California Sierra Nevada foothills. I've often thought about buying an old Aeromotor and restoring it, and putting it here on our ridge.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: NH Dave
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 09:52 PM

Here in the east, there was a plan to erect a whole forest of the pylon wind mills, with the long three bladed airfoil "props" or 'sails", in the shallow water off the SE Mass. coast.   Currently the program is on hold as some interested citizens have filed legal actions claiming the windmills will cause harm to the sea birds and an inconvenience to local shipping/sailing.

Right now it appears that the "anti"s will prevail, and another cheap source of electricity will be sacrificed on the altar of PC or environmentalist's fears.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:11 AM

how brutal...... I prefer the lofty wooden structures with little dutch boys in dutch caps doing clog dances, in their time off from sticking a finger in the dyke.

no wonder people moan about windmills, I've seen sewage farms with more scenic splendour.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bert
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:34 AM

When I was studying engineering our books had a windmill design like a shuttlecock. It always rotated downwind so it didn't need a vane to bring it into the wind. Never did see one built though.

Thanks Skipjack K8. I hadn't though of the longer day aspect though. I could make good use of a couple of extra hours.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:03 AM

I am with you on this one Akeneaton.
I am a member of Greenpeace and FOtE, but I think that they are wrong to promote land based big wind generators.
Local microgeneration and energy saving are my alternatives, along with wave power, solar roofs and off shore wind farms.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Cats
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:41 AM

We have a fair few wind farms here in Cornwall. Personally I think they are beautiful and can be very elegant as they move. They turn at nature's rate. We are also looking at wave power and have wind and wave turbines out to sea, where, perhaps they should be..I'm open on that one. It's a pity that the government withdrew tthe funding for the hot rocks research as that really did look to be a very good alternative. My answer to anyone who complains about wind turbines is, 'so you'd rather have a nuclear power station built there instead'. Soon shuts them up! Anything to clean up our planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:40 AM

The things don't work!

To get a reasonably reliable power supply from them, you either need to install several times more than you need to generate the power, so that the ones in the area the wind is blowing in can power the whole country, or you need back up power stations of some other kind.

It's not that renewables don't work, it's just they need careful though.

There is a significant amount of solar power generation being installed in the deserts of the American South-West. These work, as one of the biggest power uses is air conditioning. If it's cloudly, or dark, the A/C is not in demand. That's reliablility.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:48 AM

My family are in Cornwall, mostly in and around St.Agnes.
From the Beacon you can see 4 or five farms, each of around 50 turbines.
One tower may have an elegant shape, but row upon row on a pristine hillside visible for miles is vandalism.
Nuclear is NOT the only alternative.
Yes hot rock should be revisited in Cornwall.
There are no commercial wave power projects anywhere in Britain yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 08:47 AM

The folks who are opposed to the windmills are usually opposed to them for aesthetic reasons, which seem pretty damn superficial when compared to the cost paid by the planet and consumers for fossil fuels and nuclear. That, and in the rural areas of Ireland and Britain especially, where opposition seems strongest, people just plain don't like change.

I think difficulties and expense of long term maintenance at sea will ultimately defeat those sorts of projects.

But I do favor the electricity being generated by wind farms being used locally, and not shipped via high voltage power lines to the cities, suburbs, and industrial parks.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 09:06 AM

Yes, rural England is under threat from these things and yes, aesthetically the natural landscape is not changed for the better by industrial plant in seried ranks on the hillsides.

And as we keep saying, there ARE viable alternatives to the desecration.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 09:22 AM

There are two that stick up from the Ford car works along the A13 in Dagenham... they aren't quite so obvious as the whole area is built up, but they do cause a bit of a stir when you round a corner in the housing areas and a turbine suddenly appears.... I don't know the amount of energy it saves Ford, but they do show at least a passing nod towards conservationists and such like, and let's face it... Fords Works are such an eyesore that any amount of turbines aren't going to make it any uglier.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:04 AM

So what are the "viable alternatives" then?


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:21 PM

Still waiting to hear the viable alternatives...tick, tick, tick, tick....


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: open mike
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:34 PM

here are some to tilt at:
mostly these are used for pumping water
http://www.vintagewindmills.com/
http://www.windmill.com/
Joe--these people are not so far from you..
Placerville area....
http://www.windmills.net/

one distinct memory from me early childhood
was the taste of well water drawn up by a
windmill on the family homestead -- cold
water in the heat of summer--yum...and
tasted like a bucket of nails...

oooh--that reminds me i know someone who is
going thru Ashland oregon I am gonna call
them up and ask them if they can bring me
a bottle of lithium water form the Lithia
springs there..

sorry stream of consciousness drift
from wind (power turbines) to water...


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Shields Folk
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:37 PM

Do you know what I can't understand...............?






















Chinese writing!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: mg
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

farms are being saved by windmills.get more income from leasing windmall space than the farm income..and usually they are not the only source of power to a larger energy group...the cost of energy is human lives...whether in Iraq or in Virginia in the coal mines...should be taken into account when people don't find them pretty. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

One tower may have an elegant shape, but row upon row on a pristine hillside visible for miles is vandalism.

But it doesn't have to be done like that. Both the people who put them up and the people who object to them are going in for straight line thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:09 PM

Well, the ones tilting at them are guilty of straight line thinking, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 05:16 PM

Ticking guest.
The viable alternatives are mentioned above.
They are
off shore wind, solar heat, solar photovoltaic, geothermal, wave,
biomass, tidal, micro hydro, combined heat and power, and most importantly conservation.

Saving the landscape is surely more important than ssaving uneconomic farms.

England is very small and its remaining landscape is precious.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 05:22 PM

"The landscape" is just another way of saying "I don't want anything to spoil my lovely view". So you are all for alternative fuels, except in your backyard.

Apparently, you aren't real well versed in what does and doesn't work in the field of alternative fuels, either. Spouting off a list of them is meaningless, especially in chat forums purportedly about folk music.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 05:38 PM

I was looking at a documentary about Kashmir and Pakistan, and it struck me, looking at the lorries and the taxis and the cars all turned into marvels of ornate decoration, that I'd love to see what those people would do with the over austere minimalist looking wind turbines set in those straight lines which our designers and planners seem so wedded to. And all the other people all over the world who throughout history have effortlessly made the things they have created so good to look at.

Inventing ways of harnessing wind power that would fit into our landscape as easily as the grass and the trees is quite possible. We happen to be stuck at present in a culture which is pretty tone deaf when it comes to beauty, but that's not the way humans are most of the time.

If there's one thing we should have learnt from folk music, that's it.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:05 PM

We now have lunies here in Aus who are poisoning trees, some very carefully saved during development, that are 'obstructing views', usually at seaside locations.

Councils are not happy!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:09 PM

A Melbourne tram was decorated by the Pakistanis, I believe for the Commonwealth games, complete with music and serving chai.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Shields Folk
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:21 PM

Isn't lorry a good word, much better than truck


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: pdq
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:27 PM

McG of H,

People of the Philippines have been doing that type of 'mobil art' since WWII...

                                    jeepney


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:10 PM

https://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/admin/reguser


here is a free online newsletter about renewable energy. Very informative. Talks about things all over the world... mg


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 12:17 AM

Lorry, Truck - different rhyming schemes, Shields Folk!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:13 AM

Guest,
I live in a valley. No view. No turbines.
However I do love to explore the country and yes I do enjoy those lovely views that remain.
I do not appologise for seeking their preservation.

If you want to know anything about alternative energy, just ask.
Suggest you join and pm me.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:18 AM

lorry seems to be the hardest word


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 03:22 AM

Whilst on the Belgium/Northern France border one August, we stumbled upon a little traditional windmill that appeared to be working. When we ventured up the hill and into the farm, we found a huge birthday party in progress. It was the local community (many outlying farms and several villages) celebrating the 200somethingth birthday of the windmill. It's used several times a year for grinding wheat for special celebration breads. They had been grinding earlier that morning and were baking bread made from the flour they produced, and in the resulting smoke, were smoking hams, sausages and garlic.

I went up the windmill, right into the crown, where there was '1802' carved into a beam that had been a repair. This windmill saw Napoleon's army march across France, the Kaisers' and Hitlers armies in bloody, muddy battle (Poperinge and Ypres are about 15-20km away), and was being given a birthday party by the grateful people who owed it their living.

Wonder how many 'elegant' turbines will get a 200th birthday party?

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 04:22 AM

I still think that we need to ask the question, 'who benefits from windmills cluttering up the landscape?' On balance I think that the answers are:

(i) Politicians - because windmills are highly visible and give the appearance of doing something about the energy crisis (whilst not actually doing very much or doing it very badly).

(ii) Constructors of windmills who stand to make profits.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 01:30 PM

The European personal wind mill with compact blades like a push lawn mower is called the "Turby". Price ~$12,000 plus batteries.
It could pay for itself inside of 3 years but it would take 3 of them to make a large home entirely self sufficient.

It will not enter the US market for at least 3 years.

No moans about it - its a good idea and so small that I forsee an age similar to the time when TV antennas bristled from every roof top.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: open mike
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 01:43 PM

thanks Donuel
here is the Netherlands site
info avaialbe in english
http://www.turby.nl/


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:34 PM

Antennas bristling from rooftops? Hmmmm. Sounds ominous, like the embassy of your friendly local superpower...


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 10:17 AM

Small scale decentralised.
That is the alternative.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 10:44 AM

GUEST 8:47 a.m. said:

But I do favor the electricity being generated by wind farms being used locally, and not shipped via high voltage power lines to the cities, suburbs, and industrial parks.

GUEST clearly doesn't understand the nature of the electric power industry. Other than little gasoline or diesel generators dedicated to individual users, all electric power producers feed into networks, for supply-smoothing purposes, and it is meaningless to talk about the power being "used locally". Trying to use small scale electric sources on a limited local basis is just ASKING for inefficiency and either waste capacity or unreliability, or both.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 02:05 PM

Well, I dunno. . . .

I used to work with a fellow who built his own wind turbine and set it up in his back yard.   It supplied all the electrical needs of his house with lots to spare. In fact his meter was running backwards, and the neighbors, far from objecting to his tower (which was not all that high), became very interested in Randy's little windmill and the independence it gave him from the local power grid and its fluctuating rates.

But the backward running meter alerted Seattle City Light that something was going on. Inspectors started descending on him, only to discover that Randy had obtained all the necessary building permits (which didn't specifically mention windmills, but certainly did not forbid them), and everything was perfectly legal. Randy discovered that, according to the law, he could sell his excess electricity to City Light. City Light balked. Randy checked with an attorney, the attorney wrote a letter, and City Light continued to read the meter, but instead of sending Randy a bill, they sent him a check. But they were not happy about it.

Other inspectors started showing up. One was from either the FAA or CAB, I'm not sure which. Randy lives in south Seattle, not that far from the Seattle-Tacoma International airport. They cited him for his "tower" being a potential hazard to planes coming in to land. Randy said that any plane on its approach to the airport that was low enough to hit the "tower" was already in deep shit, and the windmill would be the least of its problems. Once more to the attorney's office. After a few shouting matches and a few more inspections, Randy agreed to put a flashing red light on the top of the windmill, and apparently they couldn't find anything more to bitch about that could conceivably hold water.

Randy's wind turbine is fairly quiet, it can be seen once you get close his neighborhood, but it's hardly "unsightly," and his neighbors think it's kinda cool! Randy hasn't paid an electric bill for some years now, and as I said, he gets a regular check from Seattle City Light.

The adage, "You can't fight city hall" is one of those sayings that's encouraged by city hall.

illegitami non carborundum!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:35 AM

Extraordinary story that, Don. That kind of set up is just what is being given official encouragement, even including subsidy, in other places.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,lateral thinker
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:43 AM

instead of building all these things they should shrink people. I read somewhere that alchemists had potions back in the middle-ages that could stunt children's growth so that they would only grow to a third of normal size . That potion's ingredients are now unfortunately lost ,but I can't see why boffins can't somehow come up with a genetic equivalent . Think of all savings on household bills . Think how many package-tourists you'd be able to fit into an aeroplane .


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:20 AM

think about the circles that you find, in the windmills of your mind.....
that pretty much does it for me


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:33 AM

We are a species that insists on cluttering up the surface of the earth with things. This constant activity, exploitation, building and cluttering leads to the biosphere becoming more disordered and unstable - it will catch up with us in just a few generations and WE CAN'T BUILD OUR WAY OUT OF IT - especially not with things like windmills whose main purposes, I insist, are to give the appearance of doing something about the coming crisis and to make profits for windmill builders.
We, as a species, need to start finding ways of reducing our 'footprint' on the earth - not increasing it!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM

DB, in a few generations we won't need to clutter up the earth with so much stuff, we can clutter up space instead. Problem solved ok, shifted a bit...


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:26 AM

Sorry I didn't get back sooner, but I've been poorly. The wave power project is not yet commercial but it is being tested out off the Cornish coast. I know nuclear isn't the only alternative, but it does make some people stop and take stock, then you can come in with alternatives. I still like the windmills.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:24 PM

Oh Bunnahabhain,

I hope that you are right but I'm afraid that the Earth rapers don't have the imagination or intelligence to go into space. After all once they had beaten the Russians to the Moon they lost interest. Besides having the sense to properly fund space exploration is way beyond those who seem to think that you can get an infinite number of quarts into and out of a pint pot!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Cobble
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:59 PM

I like windmills too, there are a lot of not in my backyard types around, WELL TRY MY BACKYARD.
5 miles to Drax power station, 16 miles to Eggbourgh power station then approx 25 miles to Ferry Bridge power station, all coal burners, all spewing out filth and acid, (ask Bill Sables if you dont believe me). Drax is the biggest in Europe, it was putting acid on trees in Norway, nice eh, from the very large chimney it uses to disperse this crap. Three stations eating 1000+ tons each of coal per hour. Yes I would like to see wind and wave power in use a lot more, in this case would'nt you. And as for the not in my backyard type, take the cables away. If they want power at the expence of our health or the waste of resources it is causing, let then light there way with candles.

Cobble.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 02:08 PM

The 2010 Winter Olympics is supposed to feature sustainable development in Vancouver and the surrounding communities. Wind power will be a feature along the sea to sky highway near Squamish. I hope it works. We certainly need alternatives. I think, at this point, all options should be explored.

Hydroelectricity requires dams and the destruction of large tracts of land. Nuclear power plants are pretty ugly too (never mind the waste). I can't think of any energy source that does not in some way impact the environment. Wind power is one of the least damaging. Solar power is pretty good, too.

My question is this. Why develop nuclear power if its possible to develop solar and wind power? Seems like a no brainer to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 04:49 PM

My question is this. Why develop nuclear power if its possible to develop solar and wind power? Seems like a no brainer to me.

Beacuse the sun doesn't shine all the time, and the wind doesn't always blow. We have no method of storing electricity on the scale needed.

Therefore we still need the other power generation, that works on a still night. Various sorts of renewable power have their place, but they could only provide 100% of our needs if we reduced our power consuption drastically.

That answer your question?


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:15 PM

It's hard to find someplace on earth where the sun is not shining and/or the wind is not blowing. The idea is a power grid. Besides, when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing, some of that power can be used to charge batteries for use when it's dark and still. No brainer.

Unless the moon decides to go off on its own, which astromomers tell us is not due for a few years yet, tides and ocean currents should be around for awhile. There are all kinds of ingenious ways of deriving electrical power there. And, no, the power derived would not be limited to coastal areas. Remember wires?   That's how electricity gets from Ross Dam, out in the tall and uncut, all the way to Seattle.

One can find all sorts of reasons to give up, especially if there is something that's been done before and some folks think is more convenient. But when everyting is toted up, nuclear power doesn't look that good. We're already finding nuclear waste to very inconvenient.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bert
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:47 PM

...We're already finding nuclear waste to very inconvenient...

You're right Don it is VERY difficult to dispose of. So is the waste from conventional power stations that is being spewed into our atmosphere at an alarming rate.

See Cobble's message above.

When I was in the nuclear power industry there were 20,000 deaths annually, in The UK alone, attributed to emissions from conventional power stations. Most of these were bronchial problems, people coughing themselves to death.

How many deaths are due to nuclear power stations (including Chernobyl)? How many lives have been saved by generating power without all that smoke from conventional power stations?


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 06:46 PM

Bunnahab - If wind and solar power were developed, that doesn't mean the existing power grid would be shut down. We can still have hydroelectric power and new sources of energy would supplement that which already exists.

Bert - Convential power stations? Do you mean coal generating plants? We use hydro and natural gas here in Canada. Much cleaner but still it creates havoc with the environment. I'm not sure what the answer would be for those who still use carbons. Get with it.

Just about anything would be better.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 08:02 PM

Jeffrey Cheung accidentally invented 'everlasting power' - by using powerful magnets and 'ferrofluid' allowing low power (less than 1 watt per unit) sources of energy due to movement - great for data buoys in the ocean!

New Scientist 25 March 2006 P46


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:48 PM

From New Scientist website:

Everlasting power in the offing

It all began with a dollop of gloopy liquid and a misplaced magnet - New Scientist reports

"IT LOOKED like a slug moving along the lab bench," says Jeffrey Cheung, a materials scientist at Rockwell Scientific in Los Angeles. "My first reaction was - oh my goodness someone forgot to turn off the sprinkler outside, and this thing has crawled into the lab. The strange thing was, when I moved to the right or the left, it always followed my movements." Then he leaned over to take a closer look. To his surprise, the slug shot off the workbench and rocketed straight at his midriff.

That day, Cheung had been doing some experiments using a commercial ferrofluid. As fate would have it, he made two crucial errors. First he lost a bar magnet, which he had borrowed from a colleague for the experiment. Then he spilt a beakerful of the fluid over his lab bench, leaving it covered with a thick layer of reddish-brown goo.

What happened ...


But then it goes:
The complete article is 1235 words long.
To continue reading this article, subscribe to New Scientist.


Gripping stuff. Reads like the opening of "Skylark of Space" or something like that. I've got to read the rest...


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:55 PM

The ferrofluid has nanoparticle monopoles suspended in it. When near a magnet, it is attracted to the ends of the poles, and there it forms an almost frictionless 'mess', allowing some interesting things to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM

And by the end of the chapter we're off to Alpha Centauri...


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck - I got hungry and ate my coo
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:32 AM

Wind doesn't always blow. Sun doesn't always shine. Storing elecricity for when it is needed.....
Simple solution in an integrated system would be to use the surplus electricity to split water into its components Hydrogen and Oxygen - e.g. An enhanced project, which can then be stored until needed and recombined either as fuel for cars or in a power station when energy demand exceeds the sun/wave/wind power being produced.
The thing about burning hydrogen with oxygen is that the only products are water and heat.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,GtD. Again
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:45 AM

This lot seem to be taking it seriously BLICKY.
Quack!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:12 AM

The wind does indeed always blow and the Sun does always shine. Sometimes the wind isn't blowing in some places rather than others, sometimes the clouds or the Earth get in beweeen us and the Sun. That's a matter or organising ourselves a bit better.

There are lots of ways of storing up energy so it can be available as and when we need it. Using it to punp up water to a higher resservoir is just one low-tech example, and there are plenty more. "Bio-mass" - using solar energy to grow stuff you can burn later - is another.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,GtD again
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 11:09 AM

Biomass isn't really a solution. We pretty much cultivate all the bits of land which can be cultivated already, and burning biomass puts carbon dioxide back into the atmosphere, which does not help the greenhouse effect.
What we really need to do is remove carbon dioxide from the system - best way I can think of is plant fast growing timber, turn it into paper then instead of recycling the paper, bale it up and sink it in the deep parts of the oceans. That way the cellolose will not decay for millions of years, and so the carbon will be removed from the system.
Note - when a tree is growing it takes in carbon dioxide and releases oxygen. Once it has reached maturity the CO2 it takes in is balanced by the CO2 it produces.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 11:39 AM

Of course biomass isn't "the solution". There isn't any "the" solution. It's just one technology among many. Burning stuff you've grown puts back into the atmosphere the carbon dioxide that was taken out of the atmosphere growing it. That's recycling for you. It's carbon dixode neutral.

Of course fossil fuel does the same - the difference being that involves putting back into the armosphere the carbon dioxide taken out and stored over millions of years. Not at all a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 08:13 AM

"The ferrofluid has nanoparticle monopoles suspended in it."

Brain fart again!!!

Dunno how teh 'monopoles' got in there - it should have read...

"The ferrofluid has madnetic nanoparticle suspended in it."


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 08:15 AM

BLOODY 'ELL!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 08:46 AM

The US used to be #1 in solar cell innovation and production.
We have sunk below #5.

The beauty and significance of the Turby to me is that it is a double helix.


Here is a whimsical piece of art which is not a Turby but moves like one. http://www.carltonartgallery.com/images/Lyman%20Whitaker%20Gallery/Star%20Pole.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM

HEY TED !!   99 !!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM

And the 100th to boot


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 08:59 AM

100!


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 10:22 AM

We don't seem to like this planet we've inherited, do we? We just have to keep changing it, and tinkering with it, and ripping its surface layers apart to get at the wealth they contain (which, of course, we assume to be infinite). All this frantic activity generates heat though, and heat leads to the the fragile layer that we inhabit becoming unstable. Once it becomes unstable enough (ie. within the next few generations) it won't be habitable any more - then our species will become extinct.

I don't believe that there are ANY technical fixes for this situation.

We've got to radically re-think the way that we relate to the biosphere. Not a lot of time to do this in, though - we seem to be accelerating along the path towards melt-down whilst generating even more hot air.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 07:31 PM

Observer snippet about this ferrofluid story.

And Jeffrey Cheung's patent


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:44 AM

Salter, the wave power pioneer, does not think the ferro fluid device can be scaled up.
Great possibilities for small generators eg navigation buoys.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Michael B
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:05 AM

Change of subject;
                Any body got the words to the Magdelene Launderies as sung by Joni Mitchell with the Chieftans on the CD "Tears of stone"?
    Thanks, Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:44 AM

A few points...

1. Pumped storage of water between high and low reservoirs. Takes lots of water, and a big height difference, so only useful in some areas.

Transmission losses in a power grid are a big problem. To minimise them, you produce the power close to where it is needed, and you transmit it at a high a voltage as possible. This is much easier with large power stations, rather than lots of small ones, which is waht renewable installations tend to be at the moment.


And biomass cannot possibly work on a large enough scale. The Brazilian ethanol fuel programme is the best example, and that only works as there is a very large area, which is suitable for a fast growing, energy rich crop. When people talk about Bio fuels for cars in the West, they are normally refereing to Palm oil, produced in South East Asia, on sites cleared of rainforest. Very green!
The energy demand of people on this planet is so large, that even if we could grow a very good fuel crop, and harvest it cheaply and efficiently, we would need many times more land in production to grow the fuel. Exactly how much land I'm not sure, but I recall a study showing that our current energy usage was 3-4 times the Net Primary Productivity of the Planet....


You want to get serious about CO2? Minimise usage, Nuclear power stations, and as many sensible renewables as possible, and a whole load of electrolysis plants. We can run everything on electricty and hydrogen if we try. The problems generated by nuclear waste are can be controlled far more easily than those from CO2.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:03 AM

Travelling round Europe I see a lot of these windmills and at any one time at least half appear to be not working. The idea is good, the technology faulty. They don't really work well at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:06 AM

Lots of small ones allows generation close to user. Less transmission loss, and waste heat can be utilised.
If all buildings had solar roofs and wind generators, they would often have excess to feed back to the grid.
Most places have scope for micro hydro. Water power started Britain's industrial revolution.
Combined heat and power local stations. Many such already operating.
Bio mass as in coppiced and pollarded trees, agricultural waste etc.
Norfolk has a small station running on chicken shit!
Given the levels of investment poured in to nuclear power, alternatives are viable.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:38 AM

In fact - if somebody could harness the bullshit herem mudcat could power the world...
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 07:15 AM

The problems generated by nuclear waste are can be controlled far more easily than those from CO2.

Cross your fingers when you say that. "Solved" means sorted out safely for the next few thousand years. We haven't done that yet, and there are good reasons for thinking we never will be able to. As and when we have done that would be the time to talk about whether to take up nuclear fission as a way of prodiucing energy, not till then.

We've already got a first rate fusion plant in a safe place, and it is set to last us for billions of years, with no maintenance. It's called the Sun, and it gives out all the power we could possibly need.

It's just ("just") a question of organsing our arrangements for making that power available to do the things that we need it to do. And cutting out doing stuff that makes things worse in the present (fossil fuel), or stores up big trouble for our children and their children...(nuclear fission).

Those aren't easy things, but they aren't impossible. The pity is that the peoples with the power to make the changes that need to be made are the last peoples who are going to be hit by the damage caused by the failure to make the changes.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM

I used to have a soap on a rope of Windy Miller of Camberwick Green fame.
just thought I'd share that with you


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:23 AM

Here's another share.... they have turbines made of lego bricks in Legoland Windsor....

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:36 AM

Thank you for sharing Liz... now where's my sleeping tablet?


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 11:51 AM

Windy Miller

Windmill World


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM

Re: Multiple comments on existing windmills that are mostly not running.

Since wind input is a variable quantity, windmills generally can only be used as "peaking sources." The distribution systems require "base capacity" that is always available, and for this fueled generators, whether coal, oil, or nuclear, are about the only things available. Hydro power generally would be included in base capacity, but is only available in limited areas.

As long as the fixed generators can supply all the needed power, dumping additional power in from the windmills would be counterproductive, since it would require reducing the output of the baseline generators to maintain stable distribution network conditions. The fixed/baseline generators operate most efficiently at output near their rated capacity, and actually have little margin for "tweaking" output. A change in baseline output generally requires turning on/off individual machines/plants which is not just a matter of flipping a switch. Restarting a large generator can take several hours, and turning one off takes (often) about half as long as bringing one back on line.

Wind generators may be idle because there is insufficient wind available at a given time (or rarely if there's too much wind for safe operation at a given time) but since as currently used they can only supply "peaking power" when and as needed by the grid, they may be shut down during low-demand periods. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're not available to meet an increase in demand, or that they're broke down and/or inefficient.

A "windmill farm" generally contracts to provide a certain amount of power continuously, based on the minum wind expected, and must have enough individual windmills to "meet contract commitments" when there's little useful wind. Any time there is more than minimum wind, it's more efficient to run only part of the windmills at higher power, and turn off the ones not needed, than to run all of them at reduced output. IF the farm can find a buyer for an additional bit of power, more of them may be started up; but it depends on instantaneous market conditions whether it's profitable to do so.

Some maintenance, and downtime for safety inspections etc., is required, and a "typical" downtime allowance of something like 10% or a little less is "planned maintenance." This means that if 10% of the mills aren't running they're doing what they should be doing.

If 90% of them aren't running, it's more likely that it's inefficiency in the power market than that the windmills are defective. Europe, especially, does have some "early design" windmills that have had reliability problems; but you'd have to talk to the operating engineers to know if that's why they don't run more.

If, as may happen someday, there were enough widely dispersed windmill farms to depend realiable on "one of them somewhere" will always be able to provide at least X kw, then a fraction of the total windmill capacity could be considered part of the "base capacity" and you'd always be getting at least some of your electrons from wind. In some markets that point may have been reached; but I haven't seen confirmation of it.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM

The rigid distinction between "peaking sources" and "base capacity" rests on the assumption that there is not any satisfactory method of storing energy provided by the former. There is no shortage of existing or potential ways of dealing with that problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:58 PM

There are enormous inefficiencies in the conversion processes. Storing energy in a chemical accumulator also involves changing AC to DC and retrieving it to feed back into the AC grid also involves more inefficiencies.

There used to be large storage flywheels - some were used in buses a while ago - they may have the ability to to produce AC output, but you then need to have a very precise match between the frequencies or else you get severe problems that may cause destruction of the equipment.


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Subject: RE: BS: People moaning about windmills
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 07:36 PM

Precisely - lots of different ways, some more efficient than others at this stage of development. And lots more which have never been explored or developed (or like those flywheels in public transport they have been abandoned prematurely), because burning up fossil fuel has always seemed cheaper, since most the cost of the damage caused has never been included in the price paid by the people doing the damage.

A rational accounting system under which those kind of costs had to be included would be the biggest single factor in putting us on the right road.


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