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BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here

GUEST,Herb 27 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 27 Dec 05 - 02:45 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 03:00 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 27 Dec 05 - 03:12 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,clogger 27 Dec 05 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 27 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,clogger 27 Dec 05 - 03:43 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 03:44 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:08 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:11 PM
kendall 27 Dec 05 - 04:17 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:18 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:22 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:28 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:35 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:37 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM
CarolC 27 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,DB 27 Dec 05 - 04:55 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 05:14 PM
Once Famous 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Bobert in north Carolina 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 05 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Bobert in North Carlolina 27 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 06:25 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 06:54 PM
leftydee 27 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 07:54 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 07:58 PM
GUEST 27 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 08:14 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 08:26 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM
Ebbie 27 Dec 05 - 08:31 PM
Once Famous 27 Dec 05 - 08:38 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 08:42 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 09:04 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 09:23 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 09:30 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM
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Subject: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Herb
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM

I see a lot of unecessary anger here. Some people cannot accept the world as it is and they are constantly upset and fighting things they will never change.

Here is some good advice:

1. Shed the burden of judgment and you will feel much lighter. Judgment imposes right and wrong on situations that just are. everything can be understood and forgiven, but when you judge, you cut off understanding and shut down the process of learning to love. In judging others, you reflect your lack of self-acceptance.

2. When you find yourself reacting with anger or opposition to any
person or circumstance, realize that you are only struggling with
yourself. Putting up resistance is the response of defenses created by
old hurts. When you relinquish this anger, you will be healing yourself and cooperating with the flow of the universe.

3. Live in the present, for it is the only moment you have. Keep your
attention on what is here and now; look for the fullness in every moment. Accept what comes to you totally and completely so that you can appreciate it, learn from it, and then let it go. The present is as it should be. It reflects infinite laws of Nature that have brought you this exact thought, this exact physical response. This moment is as it is because the universe is as it is. Don't struggle against the infinite scheme of things; instead, be at one with it.

4. Relinquish your need for external approval. You alone are the judge
of your worth, and your goal is to discover infinite worth in yourself, no matter what anyone else thinks. There is great freedom in this realization.

5. Know that the world "out there" reflects your reality "in here." The people you react to most strongly, whether you love or hate, are
projections of your inner world. What you most hate is what you most
deny in yourself. What you most love is what you most wish for in
yourself. Use the mirror of relationships to guide your evolution. The
goal is total self-knowledge. When you achieve that, what you most
want will automatically be there, and what you most dislike will
disappear.

6. Don't contaminate your body with toxins, either through food, drink, or toxic emotions. Your body is more than a life-support system. It is the vehicle that will carry you on the journey of your evolution. The health of every cell directly contributes to your state of well-being, because every cell is a point of awareness within the field of awareness that is you.

7. Replace fear-motivated behavior with love-motivated behavior. Fear is the product of memory, which dwells in the past. Remembering what hurt us before, we direct our energies toward making certain that an old hurt will not repeat itself. But trying to impose the past on the present will never wipe out the threat of being hurt. That happens only when you find the security of your own being, which is love. Motivated by the truth inside you, you can face any threat because your inner strength is invulnerable to fear.

8. Understand that the physical world is just a mirror of a deeper
intelligence. Intelligence is the invisible organizer of all matter and energy, and since a portion of this intelligence resides in you, you share in the organizing power of the cosmos. Because you are inseparably linked to everything, you cannot afford to foul the planet's air and water. But at a deeper level, you cannot afford to live with a toxic mind, because every thought makes an impression on the whole field of intelligence. Living in balance and purity is the highest good for you and the Earth.

9. Listen to your body's wisdom, which expresses itself through signals of comfort and discomfort. When choosing a certain behavior, ask your body, "How do you feel about this?" If your body sends a signal of physical or emotional distress, watch out. If your body sends a signal of comfort and eagerness, proceed.

10. Take time to be silent, to meditate, to quiet the internal dialogue. In moments of silence, realize that you are recontacting your source of pure awareness. Pay attention to your inner life so that you can be guided by intuition rather than externally imposed interpretations of what is or isn't good for you.

(Excerpted from Ageless Body, Timeless Mind by Dr. Deepak Chopra)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:34 PM

WHOA!!!

You are so right, Herb. Or should I say, Deepak Chopra is so right. In every single word.

However, those words will largely fall upon unreceptive soil here, because the vast majority of people would far rather be "right" than be happy...or kind...or tolerant. They'd far rather be at war with others forever than at peace within themselves.

It's easier to scream at and blame other people than it is to face one's own inner demons and quell them.

Accordingly, get ready for an avalanche of intemperate and hostile and sarcastic reactions to the wisdom you have posted above. If, however, you have really learned and applied what Dr Chopra is teaching, that won't bother you in the least.

God bless.

- Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:45 PM

I have been saying that the bashers here are making theirselves miserable for nothing. Just think about the bad stuff that happens and let it go.

In business, when I would get mad about a supplier or client, my brother used to tell me "write up all those complaint letters and hate mail, put them in an envelope, address it and drop it in the trash can. Then you will feel better."

This is the way the world is. If you are ever going to make a difference in thw world, you have to accept it, go out into the mean old world and do something like run for office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:00 PM

I'd have to agree, Old Guy. That's why it says in the Bible (and the Baghavad Gita and many other holy books) not to judge others. Still, it's a great temptation to go after various people one doesn't like or agree with...and most of us just can't resist it. To some, it's a veritable way of life. Some people come to this forum, in fact, just so they can fight with other people. That's kind of amusing, in a twisted sort of way...

I knew a dog like that when I was a kid. He was a scrawny little spaniel-terrier or something, and he hated all other dogs and wanted to fight with them. Some kind of over-developed territorial instinct, I guess. So, he had fights with the other dogs all the time. He was a lousy fighter, and most of them didn't even take him that seriously, so they would kind of laugh it off, but occasionally he would encounter a really nasty dog and get totally pulverized. This did not teach him anything useful. He would lie around recovering for a few days, and then come back for more. He lived a miserable life, still picking fights when he was old and almost toothless. He was reduced to "gumming" his opponents! Finally he died, having never done much of anything except eat and fight...over absolutely nothing.

I would not want to be that dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:12 PM

Having personal serenity does not preclude anger or indignation in the presence of injustice. To meekly sit by and let someone usurp one's rights or those of others and act like its none of one's business is not enlightened behavior. It's irresponsible behavior.

I do not dislike George W. Bush because he is a representation of the things I don't like about myself. I dislike him because he is a danger to the human race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM

Oh, I think he's a danger too, but what should I do about it? I mean, like, today, for instance? What should I do today to make the world a better place? Any constructive ideas?

If I was really smart, I wouldn't even be here right now, asking you that question...I'd be doing something useful in the real world.

Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM

Serenity is a very different quality from resignation and apathy, friends. It is wise not to confuse the two.

I speak out against Mister Bush's administration because it is corrosive to the well-being of others.

I actually don't have any hatred invested in him, for two reasons. One is that I have learned that letting another induce hatred in you is a good way to weaken yourself, spiritually. If I am capable of serentiy, I would not be wise to allow another being to make me adopt some lower emotion.

The second reason is that I'll be damned if I will waste my emotional energy hating some two-bit, wool-brained, half-assed, blood-thirsty, weasel-eyed, numb-nuts mindless son of a bitch. I wouldn't dignify the being with that sort of power.

So, in essence I agree with you; but I feel that I will be a freer and better soul if I continue to speak the truth, as well as I can. Surely, to do less than that is a disservice to my fellow beings here on Earth.

Transcendentally yours,

A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM

I am not so fancy with words.

1) Being anti-war is rational
2) Being anti-Bush is optional; I don't like him because he's an asshole
3) Dr Chopra has a really neat marketing scheme and he's likely making a fortune with his lectures and books. He should relinquish his queat for money because it will mess up his head


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM

And if he doesn't know what his queat is, then he should relinguish his quest instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:24 PM

O.K. Herb ...... great advice, but the advice is to atain Nirvana!!
Don't forget that the Bagavhad Gita was a discourse carried out in themiddle of a war field! If the advice is to do nothing then it is a form of Pasive/Agresive behaviourism (god I hate myself for spouting this pscycobable)
Maybe the "way" is to take note of all arguements and form your own opinion, whilst being prepaired to accept that you may be wrong
As a great man once said "may your God go with you"


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM

Amos:

Would you like someone to call you a two-bit, wool-brained, half-assed, blood-thirsty, weasel-eyed, numb-nuts mindless son of a bitch?

I think you are getting carried away with rhetoric.

What if you opened the LA Times and found a reporter calling Bush a two-bit, wool-brained, half-assed, blood-thirsty, weasel-eyed, numb-nuts mindless son of a bitch?

If you think that is cool why don't you apply for a job?

You are going to die anyway. Why be miserable until then?

Someone said: Life's a bitch and then you die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:43 PM

Wrong quote.... it should be
Life's a beach, and then you fry!
80)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:44 PM

"Queat"? Yeah, you had me wondering about that... ;-) Funny thing, language.

Here's the thing:

Being pro-peace is rational.

Being anti-war does not exactly equate to that, because it's a different form of psychic energy, and it has different effects on people from both within and without.

Chopra IS making a fortune, and that's okay with me. He's a brilliant man, and he deserves to do well in this world. I'd personally like to see everyone make a fortune.

Clogger, the war field in the Baghavad Gita is symbolic of the internal war that occurs in every human being as they battle between their negative and positive tendencies. Arjuna was reluctant to fight his "relatives", those who were most near and dear to him. Those relatives were his own most familiar negative thought-forms and habitual mental/emotional patterns (fear, greed, hatred, envy, judgement, condemnation, etc). Krishna (symbolizing the Divine Conscious Awareness arising within Arjuna and instructing him) advised him to fight without fear and slay his enemies. That's what you have to do, to do the inner work. Only you can slay your own inner demons, no one else can. The battlefield was the one within Arjuna's own soul and consciousness, not the one out there in the physical World.

There may well have once been an ancient battle in India that served later as the symbolic event in the tale, but the tale is an allegory of inner spiritual struggle (as are all the Indian holy books, and as is much or most of the Bible, in my opinion...at least the New Testament).


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:08 PM

"Being pro-peace is rational.

Being anti-war does not exactly equate to that, because it's a different form of psychic energy, and it has different effects on people from both within and without."

So go or get off the pot. Are you not anti-war?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:11 PM

"Chopra IS making a fortune, and that's okay with me."

It's OK with me too. However, he can't take it with him. As another guy you often laud said: "Give to Caesar what's Caesar's, and give to God what's God's."


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:17 PM

I'm kinda glad the founding fathers got pissed off and told King George the third to stuff it. Otherwise we would all be speaking English!


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:18 PM

Oh, I've been anti-war most of my life. But I do think it's far wiser to be pro-peace. When you're for something, you've got something constructive to DO. When you're against something, you've got something destructive to do (fight with someone about it) (or just criticize them, which is verbal, psychic fighting). One of the classic examples of the fervent "anti" type of psychology on this forum is your pal and mine, MG. "Anti"s mean well, consciously, since they are defending what they think is good...well, they usually mean well...but they try to put out a fire by throwing a whole lot of gasoline on it. This gets themselves and others badly burnt in the process.

That's why Mother Teresa refused, when asked, to participate in an antiwar demonstration against the Vietnam War. She said, "Hold a peace rally and I will be there." I have participated in peace rallies from time to time.

This may seem like splitting hares to you...sorry..."hairs", I mean.

(not wanting to upset any rabbits)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:22 PM

From what you're saying, it doesn't matter what it seems like to me. And that's cool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:28 PM

The point of a fortune is not to take it with you, but to use it in the most joyful, creative, and effective ways possible while you are here...which should benefit both yourself and others if you do it well and wisely. Money's just a tool. Nothing more. As I recall, Jesus was making a particular and very clever maneuver with that statement you quote...he was deflecting an attempted attack on him by the religious hierarchy of his time. They were trying to entrap him in some supposedly wrongful behaviour, so they could discredit or destroy him. He evaded their trap in a way they did not anticipate when he gave that answer.

In truth, everything is God's...because God is the intelligent energy out of which everything is made...period. Nothing is ours, except our conscious awareness of self. Everything we think we own is temporarily borrowed, and we can't take any of it with us. We can only experience it while we make use of it here and now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM

"As soon as you conceptualize something, you limit it. All concepts or definitions are therefore limiting. Divine intelligence, or God, is unbounded, eternal, ineffable, without any beginning or ending in time, and beyond the edges of space. Therefore, the emptiness that you speak of is not an emptiness. It is the fullness of infinite possibilities. It is the field of pure potentiality. It is the immeasurable source of all that was, all that is, and all that will be. God is therefore not conceptualizable, but definitely realizable."

The above is from Deepak Chopra. He wants you to stop talking now, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:35 PM

Interviewer: Lately, I have been in some fascinating discussions on the topic What is God? Since Dr. Chopra was bold enough to name his book "How to Know God," can he give a brief description of his definition of God?

Chopra's answer (in part): "Look at the spelling of God: G stands for Generation; O stands for Organization; and D stands for Delivery. Therefore, GOD is the Generator, the Organizer, and the Deliverer of the Universe."

I leave you with the wpords of the good doctor. Hope you had a great Christmas, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:37 PM

"I leave you with the wpords. . .", and the words, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM

You know, even saints and prophets must avoid the temptation to be totally forthright and honest with scoundrels or fools or people who simply can't be trusted to respond well to a direct statement of the plain truth...

That's why Jesus advised his disciples not to "cast pearls before swine, for they will turn and rend you". Even a saint may have to tell a "white lie" now and then in certain company in order to avoid totally unnecessary and pointless conflict with people. That's wisdom. There are times when a harmless and judicious lie may save many innocent lives.

The problem with the Net is: you never know who's out there listening as you speak. That makes it like a minefield. One has to consider carefully what to say, and what not to say, unless one simply doesn't give a damn. And that's what I call "reckless".


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM

7. Replace fear-motivated behavior with love-motivated behavior.

That's sage advice. So that means no more "pre-emptive" attacks on other countries in the name of the "war on terror", right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM

Ha! You're so right, Bruce. I should stop all this danged conceptualizing right now!

Yeah, Christmas was pretty good. How about yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM

'That's why Jesus advised his disciples not to "cast pearls before swine, for they will turn and rend you".'

I will have you know that I have never been rended by a pearl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:50 PM

Christmas in the secular sense was as nothing to me for I abhor--or rather, in the spirit of this thread, mildly dislike--the internal vacuum it leaves when it passes.

The spiritual aspect was normal in the sense that I sent some prayers into outer space on behalf of people I know and don't know, asking for the usual stuff: peace on Earth, food for the hungry and maybe one bitchin' big lightening bolt to wake up the leaders of this world so that it can achieve an awareness it presently lacks. Thanks for asking, LH.

PS You were in one of the prayers also. FYI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:55 PM

Yeah, I've realised that you have to accept the world as it is. That means accepting a world which is run according to one economic model: the one that states that the world's resources are infinite and can be exploited indefinitely at an accelerating rate. This model may be incredibly dumb, and means that the human race (my species and your species) is condeming itself to inevitable extinction, but there is absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it, is there? So, extinction here we come! I gratefully accept our fate and I love everyone - every goddammned futureless one of you ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:14 PM

Your analysis of the economic model is accurate, DB...and it will either change...or billions will die needlessly. I hope it changes.


Bruce - Thanks. I certainly appreciate that. I also find Christmas a rather tough time to get through, generally speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM

Good thread, Herb. You can't change the handwringers here though. They think they are God's folk music gift to humanity. Amos is one obsessed sick puppy who like a few others here haven't much life except to rant about Bush and be Al Quaida's friend.

Little Hawk, way too much Jesus talk. You are starting to sound like something off of cable TV at 2 in the morning. Plenty of people are doing just fine with God alone and don't need Jesus for anything. In case you haven't notices, more and more churches don't have crosses or steeples these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Bobert in north Carolina
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM

Well,well,well...

Being stuck downn here in N.C. with the -Vine's kids, I needed a good chuckle so...

Ha, ha, and ha...

Seems like the folks here with the most anger ain't the anti-war, pro-human and pro-Earth folks but the Bushites who are filled with personal venom while defending positions that are motivated by their fears and hate...

Yerah, this thread should have been titled " Advicer for the Bushites here"

Peace from Mt.Holly, NC...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:56 PM

I take issue with the idea that trying to maintain a sort of tranquil indifference in the face of some of the things that are going on in the world—especially if you can do something about it by speaking out strongly—as a failure to be a human being. Rabbi Zusya said, "When I am called before my Maker to be judged, I will not be asked, 'Why were you not Moses?' I will be asked, 'Why were you not Zusya?'"

"Unnecessary anger?" I don't think so. There is plenty for a rational human being to be angry about.

I am not normally an angry kind of person, but when I see the things this country's administration is doing, I don't see how anyone with a sense of decency can not get angry. In general, the Bush administration (the latest and most arrogantly blatant, but definitely not the first) is conducting policies, both foreign and domestic, that go against every principle and ideal that this country is supposed to stand for:   launching a war of aggression for control of resources and geopolitical power and lying through its teeth about the real reasons for it; claiming to protect its citizens against terrorist attacks by making the situations that cause them even worse, while at the same time failing to take real precautions to protect the citizenry against such attacks;   giving massive tax-cuts to the wealthiest segment of its population while increasing government spending to mind-boggling levels, running up a national debt that will take generations to pay off (if ever!), and using the results of it's own blatant fiscal irresponsibility as an excuse to cut funding for necessities for the most vulnerable of its citizens, including funding for education, Medicare and Medicaid, and the food stamps that some need merely to survive;   lies, cover-ups, a covert policy of torture, spying on its own citizens, appointing incompetent and indifferent cronies to positions of responsibility, and general arrogance, indifference, ineptitude, and stumble-bummery, all in the name of greed and in pursuit of the Almighty Dollar—not to mention not-so-covert attempts to support the establishment of a state religion (Christian fundamentalism) and improperly use Constitutional amendments and the Judiciary branch of government to legislate moral standards (the Bush administration, wanting to dictate moral standards!!??).

Beyond the above litany of malfeasance, let me give you one (just one) specific example of the kind of thing that makes steam pour put of my ears:   among the Medicare cuts that passed was cutting funds for home oxygen service for people who need it. But then, funding for this (thankfully for a friend of mine, whose life depends on it) was restored. The reason it was restored? The business of suppliers of home oxygen service would take a substantial hit if this funding cut was allowed to stand. And they have a strong lobbyist. So—did Congress restore funding because of any real concern for the people who depended on home oxygen service? No! Congress restored it because somebody with a loud voice in Washington, D. C., was going to lose money. That's what counts in this uncivilized and benighted country. Money. Only money.

Now if that doesn't make you angry, then you're either some kind of self-centered monster, or they should throw a sheet over you, put a tag on your toe, and close the drawer.

I give GUEST,Herb, who started this thread, the benefit of the doubt, that with an admirable combination of enthusiasm for the philosophical outlook of Deepak Chopra and an desire to see people avoid getting unduly worked up, he failed to think the matter through to it's logical conclusion. Especially within the context of the title of the thread, this tends to sound like a brief for acceptance of whatever kind of atrocity comes down the pike. I'm quite sure that any tyrant or tyrant's lackey would quote (and have often quoted) something similar.

Evil triumphs when good people do nothing.

The point is, GET angry!! Get angry enough to DO something about it!

Don Firth
(mutter mutter snarl!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Bobert in North Carlolina
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM

Just thought of one more thing...

My ex-wifes father was a lobbiest for the American Petroleum Institute... It was his job to go before congressional heaings after oil spill and give his standardized "Don't worry, be happy" testimnony about how nature takes care of things like that...

About a month after his last congression testimony he was diagnosed with some sever allergies of certain chedmical, including the ink that is used in printin' and couldn't breathe if there was so much as a newspaper in the house...

Not too sure why this thread made me think of him but it has somerthing to do with thaat Karma thing...

Yeah, it's easy to go thru life with "Don't worry, be happy" blinders on but it might not be gthe best thing for one's own health or the health of the Earth and ints inhabitants...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 06:25 PM

I have no objection to people relying on God alone, Martin, and the cross is a symbol I don't identify with much.

The subject of Jesus just happened to come up, and I do admire his teachings and example. I could say the same of Krishna or Buddha or Lao-Tse, if it comes to that, and of many others.

Not judging others, folks, does NOT mean one is incapable of resisting evil, defending oneself, and taking necessary action in any emergency or situation. By no means. It just means not saying inside yourself (or openly) about another, "I am better than you. You are dirt under my feet. You're no good. Neither are those who are like you. You deserve no mercy. I am going to heaven and you're not...nyah, nyah, nyah!". Such inner assumptions poison a person, bit by bit.

Is your passion driven by hatred or love? In most cases, it's some of both. It would be wise to weed out the hatred as time goes by. But I speak only for myself, because I'm not anyone else's keeper, am I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 06:54 PM

"Amos is one obsessed sick puppy who like a few others here haven't much life except to rant about Bush and be Al Quaida's friend."

Amos is one of the finest people a guy's ever likely to meet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: leftydee
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM

Thank you Don and Bobert for pointing out that, yes, we live in a world where things do count. Old Guy almost had it right when he said,"life's a bitch, then you die". The reality is Life's a bitch, then you leave a legacy whether you want to or not, then you die.

There's lots of the "Don't worry, be happy" crapola going around. Ignoring the elephant doesn't work. I hope my legacy will be that I was paying attention to what was good for my family, my country and my world. If you're paying attention, I'll bet you're pissed off too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 07:54 PM

Well, Old Guy, you misunderstand me and clearly my ironic "enlightened" talk went past you like a speeding bullet. There is no misery in my life, and very little in the way of hatred. The reason I called W all those names is because, well, I think he is.

But I have too many things going on, despite Gibbon's hallucinations about me, tyo dwell on your or his distortions of me. I have two boooks in the works, a CD to finish editing, and a loving and wonderful small familly to support and encourage. Plus a number of building and maintenance projects around the house.

God speed to both of you, and may you reach as much awareness as you truly want to reach.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 07:58 PM

Yeah, but you used fancy names for Bush. I just call him an asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM

Trashy psychobabble. If everybody followed it we'd still be in caves.
Life is something to grab and ride for all your worth, and when a Hitler or even a Bush or a Blair comes along anger is a necessary tool for change. And do we need things to change!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:14 PM

Brave words from a secret place, Guest; if your own psychobabble was a little less trashy you might have the courage to own your own name.

Sniping from dark corners is scarcely riding anything.

But, yes, we truly need things to change, no question! Happy New Year.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:26 PM

Keriste. Is it January 1 already?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM

Little Hawk, I once heard a philosopher of ethics say, "Yes, if you are going to be an ethical person, you must judge the behavior of others and the beliefs that lead them to that behavior. And furthermore, you must be prepared to be judged on the basis of the judgments that you make!"

That makes perfect sense to me. Although this idea of "Judge not, least ye be judged" has a lot of credence because it is attributed to Jesus (recent research into what's been referred to as the "Q Gospel"—examinations of Biblical texts and contemporary accounts that, for various reasons, were excluded from the Bible—indicated that much is attributed to Jesus that it is doubtful he actually said at all), if you examine the concept logically, what my philosophy prof said makes a lot of sense—if you are to act in the world, and not just sit back and watch the passing parade with a sort of bland indifference to everything. This does not necessarily mean that you hate someone or consider yourself superior to him or her because you judge their actions to be wrong, immoral, or unethical. You are judging the person's behavior.

I believe that in Dante's Inferno, the lowest level of hell is reserved for those who "do not wish to get involved" and are content to merely observe all manner of evil with a casual indifference.

When you see cruelty, injustice, and indifference to the suffering of others and you become incensed by it, this comes from love. It's either hatred for those suffering from injustice or simply this damning "casual indifference" that allows someone to look the other way.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:31 PM

Don Firth, your essay is going on my bulletin board- when I get tired of the same old non-productive efforts it will spur me on to look for new ways and avenues. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:38 PM

Amos, there is truly no misery in my life or real hatred, either. The reason I called you one sick puppy who rants about Bush everyday is because you are. And you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:42 PM

Well, Martin he does speak against Bush everyday, but he's not a sick puppy. And personally I am very glad that there's no misery in your life, and may you never have any. Shalom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:04 PM

Martin:

You are deeply beguiled by the noise of your own words. I post articles against Bush when I find ones which seem articulate and coherent. I have even occasionally posted remarks in favour of him, although much more rarely. More important I am neither sick, nor a puppy; I am a man, as you are, and I think and feel as you do. You'll have to look elsewhere to find someone to crunch up and spit out with your shallow rhetorical devices.

Amos


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:23 PM

I agree 100% with everything you said, Don.

At the same time, I agree 100% with everything Deepak Chopra said in the first post on this thread. I don't see a conflict there.

You see, Chopra's discourse is intended primarily to instruct someone how to manage their own inner consciousness, it's not intended to tell you what to do about a social injustice. Your discourse is about the outer circumstances of life and how to deal with them...his is about the inner state of mind and how to best manage it to keep yourself in a healthy state of mind.

I would NEVER recommend to someone to sit back, uninvolved, and "content to merely observe all manner of evil with a casual indifference."

It looks to me like those who have truly learned first not to judge others are those most likely to become powerfully involved in the battle for equality and social justice, even to the point of risking and losing their own lives for the cause. Gandhi was a fine example of that.

He didn't bitch endlessly about how awful and evil and despicable the British were (they're essentially no more awful or evil than anyone else). He pointed out the clear injustices in his society, and stood up for the rights of the oppressed people who were under the British rule, and spoke in favour of what he believed in. If he were inclined to judgement, he would probably have organized clandestine groups of assassins and killed British officials and civilians too, in all likelihood...or he would have incited an armed revolt and started a war. Therein lies the difference.

To overcome judgement of others (and even of self) is a subtle business, and most people are not even slightly inclined to take it on. To judge wrongful outer behaviour is far easier and more obvious, and comes naturally to people. Self-realization has NOTHING to do with not getting involved, "ignoring the elephant", being blandly indifferent or anything like that. Was Jesus blandly indifferent?

In my experience, the people who tend to be blandly indifferent are those who complacently accept the norm exactly as it is, concentrate on filling their faces in front of the TV, and JUDGE other people with a vengeance. They do not empathize at all with most other people, so they feel entirely justified in supporting condemning them out of hand, executing them, humiliating them, and so on.

Chopra's talking about dealing with consciousness. You're talking about dealing with social issues. Of COURSE we need to judge people's behaviour. Try behaving destructively in any genuine spiritual community, and see if people don't call you on it right away. They will. The thing is, though, spiritual communities usually attract rather peacefully-minded people...although there have been notable exceptions to that among certain groups of zealots here and there!

"When you see cruelty, injustice, and indifference to the suffering of others and you become incensed by it, this comes from love."

Absolutely.

Bush probably imagines that HE is standing up for justice and equality and all good and decent things. But...he has no hesitation to judge others as completely "evil", does he? And on that basis, we have a nonsensical War Against Terror, which is itself a contradiction in terms and is unresolvable and essentially unwinnable (just like the War on Drugs). He needs to study and apply some Deepak Chopra. ;-)

Lao Tse put it this way: by attacking an enemy, you give him strength. If you believe implicitly in attack to solve your problems you will always have enemies and never have peace for very long...only brief pauses between one struggle and the next. The old enemy will return in a new form, with another face.

As for anger...an outward and resolute use of righteous anger can be quite appropriate in certain situations as long as the anger doesn't hijack you and cause you to lose control and descend into hatred and vengeance. Remember the cobra that decided to be spiritual and not hurt anyone? (it was on the strong advice of a sage, who had been called for help by villagers who feared the cobra) The villagers, discovering that the cobra had become surprisingly passive, beat it almost to death, in reprisal for its previous attacks on people. When the sage returned, he found the cobra nearly dead. "You foolish snake!" he exclaimed. "I told you not to bite. I didn't tell you not to HISS!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:30 PM

And later that same snake saw a Ganges crocodile, and because he had to cross the river he asked if he could ride on the crocodile's back. The croc said sure. Then the snake hesitated. He said, "But how do I know you won't eat me?" The croc said, "I won't. Just get on my back and we'll cross." The snake did. Halfway there the croc dumped the snake in the water and bit him in two. As the snake felt his life ebbing, he said, "But you said you wouldn't." The croc replied, "That's India, baby."


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM

LOL! I like that ceiling joke. (it may be old, but it was new to me...)

Man, I wish that I had the gumption to spend as much time exercising as I do typing on this flippin' keyboard.

I'd be a regular Charles Atlas by now.

So, who is this "Monk" character you speak of?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM

Come on, Bruce...cobras aren't that stupid! ;-) Anyway, they are superb swimmers from what I hear. They don't need no steenkin' crocodiles!


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