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BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here

GUEST,Herb 27 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 27 Dec 05 - 02:45 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 03:00 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 27 Dec 05 - 03:12 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,clogger 27 Dec 05 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 27 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,clogger 27 Dec 05 - 03:43 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 03:44 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:08 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:11 PM
kendall 27 Dec 05 - 04:17 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:18 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:22 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:28 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:35 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:37 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM
CarolC 27 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,DB 27 Dec 05 - 04:55 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 05:14 PM
Once Famous 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Bobert in north Carolina 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 05 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Bobert in North Carlolina 27 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 06:25 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 06:54 PM
leftydee 27 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 07:54 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 07:58 PM
GUEST 27 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 08:14 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 08:26 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM
Ebbie 27 Dec 05 - 08:31 PM
Once Famous 27 Dec 05 - 08:38 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 08:42 PM
Amos 27 Dec 05 - 09:04 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 09:23 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 09:30 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 09:40 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 05 - 09:52 PM
Peace 27 Dec 05 - 09:58 PM
Arkie 27 Dec 05 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,Berserker Nordstrom 27 Dec 05 - 11:41 PM
Amos 28 Dec 05 - 12:40 AM
Wolfgang 28 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,Bobert Still in North Carolina 28 Dec 05 - 07:43 AM
Amos 28 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Old Guy 28 Dec 05 - 10:18 PM
GUEST 28 Dec 05 - 10:27 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 28 Dec 05 - 10:34 PM
GUEST,Bobert Still in North Carolina 28 Dec 05 - 10:35 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 28 Dec 05 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,A 28 Dec 05 - 10:40 PM
Amos 28 Dec 05 - 10:46 PM
CarolC 28 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM
GUEST,Bobert Still in North Carolina 28 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 28 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM
Peace 28 Dec 05 - 11:42 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 28 Dec 05 - 11:46 PM
GUEST,Alphabet 29 Dec 05 - 12:15 AM
CarolC 29 Dec 05 - 11:23 AM
Donuel 30 Dec 05 - 08:54 AM
beardedbruce 30 Dec 05 - 09:14 AM
Donuel 30 Dec 05 - 09:59 AM
TIA 30 Dec 05 - 10:00 AM
Donuel 30 Dec 05 - 10:03 AM
beardedbruce 30 Dec 05 - 10:32 AM
TIA 30 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,clogger 30 Dec 05 - 05:32 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 06:01 PM
Once Famous 30 Dec 05 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,War 30 Dec 05 - 07:14 PM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 11:06 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 11:08 PM
GUEST,War 30 Dec 05 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,Alphabet 30 Dec 05 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,War 31 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM
CarolC 31 Dec 05 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,War 31 Dec 05 - 12:03 PM
Ebbie 31 Dec 05 - 12:30 PM
Once Famous 31 Dec 05 - 12:57 PM
Amos 31 Dec 05 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Frank 31 Dec 05 - 04:56 PM
Amos 31 Dec 05 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,cloggere 01 Jan 06 - 02:16 PM
akenaton 01 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Frank 01 Jan 06 - 03:24 PM
TIA 01 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Herb 01 Jan 06 - 11:37 PM
Peace 01 Jan 06 - 11:39 PM
TIA 01 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Herb 02 Jan 06 - 12:02 AM
GUEST,Robert 02 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM
dianavan 02 Jan 06 - 12:39 AM
GUEST,TIA 04 Jan 06 - 10:21 PM
Amos 04 Jan 06 - 10:40 PM
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Subject: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Herb
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM

I see a lot of unecessary anger here. Some people cannot accept the world as it is and they are constantly upset and fighting things they will never change.

Here is some good advice:

1. Shed the burden of judgment and you will feel much lighter. Judgment imposes right and wrong on situations that just are. everything can be understood and forgiven, but when you judge, you cut off understanding and shut down the process of learning to love. In judging others, you reflect your lack of self-acceptance.

2. When you find yourself reacting with anger or opposition to any
person or circumstance, realize that you are only struggling with
yourself. Putting up resistance is the response of defenses created by
old hurts. When you relinquish this anger, you will be healing yourself and cooperating with the flow of the universe.

3. Live in the present, for it is the only moment you have. Keep your
attention on what is here and now; look for the fullness in every moment. Accept what comes to you totally and completely so that you can appreciate it, learn from it, and then let it go. The present is as it should be. It reflects infinite laws of Nature that have brought you this exact thought, this exact physical response. This moment is as it is because the universe is as it is. Don't struggle against the infinite scheme of things; instead, be at one with it.

4. Relinquish your need for external approval. You alone are the judge
of your worth, and your goal is to discover infinite worth in yourself, no matter what anyone else thinks. There is great freedom in this realization.

5. Know that the world "out there" reflects your reality "in here." The people you react to most strongly, whether you love or hate, are
projections of your inner world. What you most hate is what you most
deny in yourself. What you most love is what you most wish for in
yourself. Use the mirror of relationships to guide your evolution. The
goal is total self-knowledge. When you achieve that, what you most
want will automatically be there, and what you most dislike will
disappear.

6. Don't contaminate your body with toxins, either through food, drink, or toxic emotions. Your body is more than a life-support system. It is the vehicle that will carry you on the journey of your evolution. The health of every cell directly contributes to your state of well-being, because every cell is a point of awareness within the field of awareness that is you.

7. Replace fear-motivated behavior with love-motivated behavior. Fear is the product of memory, which dwells in the past. Remembering what hurt us before, we direct our energies toward making certain that an old hurt will not repeat itself. But trying to impose the past on the present will never wipe out the threat of being hurt. That happens only when you find the security of your own being, which is love. Motivated by the truth inside you, you can face any threat because your inner strength is invulnerable to fear.

8. Understand that the physical world is just a mirror of a deeper
intelligence. Intelligence is the invisible organizer of all matter and energy, and since a portion of this intelligence resides in you, you share in the organizing power of the cosmos. Because you are inseparably linked to everything, you cannot afford to foul the planet's air and water. But at a deeper level, you cannot afford to live with a toxic mind, because every thought makes an impression on the whole field of intelligence. Living in balance and purity is the highest good for you and the Earth.

9. Listen to your body's wisdom, which expresses itself through signals of comfort and discomfort. When choosing a certain behavior, ask your body, "How do you feel about this?" If your body sends a signal of physical or emotional distress, watch out. If your body sends a signal of comfort and eagerness, proceed.

10. Take time to be silent, to meditate, to quiet the internal dialogue. In moments of silence, realize that you are recontacting your source of pure awareness. Pay attention to your inner life so that you can be guided by intuition rather than externally imposed interpretations of what is or isn't good for you.

(Excerpted from Ageless Body, Timeless Mind by Dr. Deepak Chopra)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:34 PM

WHOA!!!

You are so right, Herb. Or should I say, Deepak Chopra is so right. In every single word.

However, those words will largely fall upon unreceptive soil here, because the vast majority of people would far rather be "right" than be happy...or kind...or tolerant. They'd far rather be at war with others forever than at peace within themselves.

It's easier to scream at and blame other people than it is to face one's own inner demons and quell them.

Accordingly, get ready for an avalanche of intemperate and hostile and sarcastic reactions to the wisdom you have posted above. If, however, you have really learned and applied what Dr Chopra is teaching, that won't bother you in the least.

God bless.

- Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:45 PM

I have been saying that the bashers here are making theirselves miserable for nothing. Just think about the bad stuff that happens and let it go.

In business, when I would get mad about a supplier or client, my brother used to tell me "write up all those complaint letters and hate mail, put them in an envelope, address it and drop it in the trash can. Then you will feel better."

This is the way the world is. If you are ever going to make a difference in thw world, you have to accept it, go out into the mean old world and do something like run for office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:00 PM

I'd have to agree, Old Guy. That's why it says in the Bible (and the Baghavad Gita and many other holy books) not to judge others. Still, it's a great temptation to go after various people one doesn't like or agree with...and most of us just can't resist it. To some, it's a veritable way of life. Some people come to this forum, in fact, just so they can fight with other people. That's kind of amusing, in a twisted sort of way...

I knew a dog like that when I was a kid. He was a scrawny little spaniel-terrier or something, and he hated all other dogs and wanted to fight with them. Some kind of over-developed territorial instinct, I guess. So, he had fights with the other dogs all the time. He was a lousy fighter, and most of them didn't even take him that seriously, so they would kind of laugh it off, but occasionally he would encounter a really nasty dog and get totally pulverized. This did not teach him anything useful. He would lie around recovering for a few days, and then come back for more. He lived a miserable life, still picking fights when he was old and almost toothless. He was reduced to "gumming" his opponents! Finally he died, having never done much of anything except eat and fight...over absolutely nothing.

I would not want to be that dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:12 PM

Having personal serenity does not preclude anger or indignation in the presence of injustice. To meekly sit by and let someone usurp one's rights or those of others and act like its none of one's business is not enlightened behavior. It's irresponsible behavior.

I do not dislike George W. Bush because he is a representation of the things I don't like about myself. I dislike him because he is a danger to the human race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM

Oh, I think he's a danger too, but what should I do about it? I mean, like, today, for instance? What should I do today to make the world a better place? Any constructive ideas?

If I was really smart, I wouldn't even be here right now, asking you that question...I'd be doing something useful in the real world.

Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM

Serenity is a very different quality from resignation and apathy, friends. It is wise not to confuse the two.

I speak out against Mister Bush's administration because it is corrosive to the well-being of others.

I actually don't have any hatred invested in him, for two reasons. One is that I have learned that letting another induce hatred in you is a good way to weaken yourself, spiritually. If I am capable of serentiy, I would not be wise to allow another being to make me adopt some lower emotion.

The second reason is that I'll be damned if I will waste my emotional energy hating some two-bit, wool-brained, half-assed, blood-thirsty, weasel-eyed, numb-nuts mindless son of a bitch. I wouldn't dignify the being with that sort of power.

So, in essence I agree with you; but I feel that I will be a freer and better soul if I continue to speak the truth, as well as I can. Surely, to do less than that is a disservice to my fellow beings here on Earth.

Transcendentally yours,

A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM

I am not so fancy with words.

1) Being anti-war is rational
2) Being anti-Bush is optional; I don't like him because he's an asshole
3) Dr Chopra has a really neat marketing scheme and he's likely making a fortune with his lectures and books. He should relinquish his queat for money because it will mess up his head


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM

And if he doesn't know what his queat is, then he should relinguish his quest instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:24 PM

O.K. Herb ...... great advice, but the advice is to atain Nirvana!!
Don't forget that the Bagavhad Gita was a discourse carried out in themiddle of a war field! If the advice is to do nothing then it is a form of Pasive/Agresive behaviourism (god I hate myself for spouting this pscycobable)
Maybe the "way" is to take note of all arguements and form your own opinion, whilst being prepaired to accept that you may be wrong
As a great man once said "may your God go with you"


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM

Amos:

Would you like someone to call you a two-bit, wool-brained, half-assed, blood-thirsty, weasel-eyed, numb-nuts mindless son of a bitch?

I think you are getting carried away with rhetoric.

What if you opened the LA Times and found a reporter calling Bush a two-bit, wool-brained, half-assed, blood-thirsty, weasel-eyed, numb-nuts mindless son of a bitch?

If you think that is cool why don't you apply for a job?

You are going to die anyway. Why be miserable until then?

Someone said: Life's a bitch and then you die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:43 PM

Wrong quote.... it should be
Life's a beach, and then you fry!
80)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:44 PM

"Queat"? Yeah, you had me wondering about that... ;-) Funny thing, language.

Here's the thing:

Being pro-peace is rational.

Being anti-war does not exactly equate to that, because it's a different form of psychic energy, and it has different effects on people from both within and without.

Chopra IS making a fortune, and that's okay with me. He's a brilliant man, and he deserves to do well in this world. I'd personally like to see everyone make a fortune.

Clogger, the war field in the Baghavad Gita is symbolic of the internal war that occurs in every human being as they battle between their negative and positive tendencies. Arjuna was reluctant to fight his "relatives", those who were most near and dear to him. Those relatives were his own most familiar negative thought-forms and habitual mental/emotional patterns (fear, greed, hatred, envy, judgement, condemnation, etc). Krishna (symbolizing the Divine Conscious Awareness arising within Arjuna and instructing him) advised him to fight without fear and slay his enemies. That's what you have to do, to do the inner work. Only you can slay your own inner demons, no one else can. The battlefield was the one within Arjuna's own soul and consciousness, not the one out there in the physical World.

There may well have once been an ancient battle in India that served later as the symbolic event in the tale, but the tale is an allegory of inner spiritual struggle (as are all the Indian holy books, and as is much or most of the Bible, in my opinion...at least the New Testament).


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:08 PM

"Being pro-peace is rational.

Being anti-war does not exactly equate to that, because it's a different form of psychic energy, and it has different effects on people from both within and without."

So go or get off the pot. Are you not anti-war?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:11 PM

"Chopra IS making a fortune, and that's okay with me."

It's OK with me too. However, he can't take it with him. As another guy you often laud said: "Give to Caesar what's Caesar's, and give to God what's God's."


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:17 PM

I'm kinda glad the founding fathers got pissed off and told King George the third to stuff it. Otherwise we would all be speaking English!


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:18 PM

Oh, I've been anti-war most of my life. But I do think it's far wiser to be pro-peace. When you're for something, you've got something constructive to DO. When you're against something, you've got something destructive to do (fight with someone about it) (or just criticize them, which is verbal, psychic fighting). One of the classic examples of the fervent "anti" type of psychology on this forum is your pal and mine, MG. "Anti"s mean well, consciously, since they are defending what they think is good...well, they usually mean well...but they try to put out a fire by throwing a whole lot of gasoline on it. This gets themselves and others badly burnt in the process.

That's why Mother Teresa refused, when asked, to participate in an antiwar demonstration against the Vietnam War. She said, "Hold a peace rally and I will be there." I have participated in peace rallies from time to time.

This may seem like splitting hares to you...sorry..."hairs", I mean.

(not wanting to upset any rabbits)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:22 PM

From what you're saying, it doesn't matter what it seems like to me. And that's cool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:28 PM

The point of a fortune is not to take it with you, but to use it in the most joyful, creative, and effective ways possible while you are here...which should benefit both yourself and others if you do it well and wisely. Money's just a tool. Nothing more. As I recall, Jesus was making a particular and very clever maneuver with that statement you quote...he was deflecting an attempted attack on him by the religious hierarchy of his time. They were trying to entrap him in some supposedly wrongful behaviour, so they could discredit or destroy him. He evaded their trap in a way they did not anticipate when he gave that answer.

In truth, everything is God's...because God is the intelligent energy out of which everything is made...period. Nothing is ours, except our conscious awareness of self. Everything we think we own is temporarily borrowed, and we can't take any of it with us. We can only experience it while we make use of it here and now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM

"As soon as you conceptualize something, you limit it. All concepts or definitions are therefore limiting. Divine intelligence, or God, is unbounded, eternal, ineffable, without any beginning or ending in time, and beyond the edges of space. Therefore, the emptiness that you speak of is not an emptiness. It is the fullness of infinite possibilities. It is the field of pure potentiality. It is the immeasurable source of all that was, all that is, and all that will be. God is therefore not conceptualizable, but definitely realizable."

The above is from Deepak Chopra. He wants you to stop talking now, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:35 PM

Interviewer: Lately, I have been in some fascinating discussions on the topic What is God? Since Dr. Chopra was bold enough to name his book "How to Know God," can he give a brief description of his definition of God?

Chopra's answer (in part): "Look at the spelling of God: G stands for Generation; O stands for Organization; and D stands for Delivery. Therefore, GOD is the Generator, the Organizer, and the Deliverer of the Universe."

I leave you with the wpords of the good doctor. Hope you had a great Christmas, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:37 PM

"I leave you with the wpords. . .", and the words, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM

You know, even saints and prophets must avoid the temptation to be totally forthright and honest with scoundrels or fools or people who simply can't be trusted to respond well to a direct statement of the plain truth...

That's why Jesus advised his disciples not to "cast pearls before swine, for they will turn and rend you". Even a saint may have to tell a "white lie" now and then in certain company in order to avoid totally unnecessary and pointless conflict with people. That's wisdom. There are times when a harmless and judicious lie may save many innocent lives.

The problem with the Net is: you never know who's out there listening as you speak. That makes it like a minefield. One has to consider carefully what to say, and what not to say, unless one simply doesn't give a damn. And that's what I call "reckless".


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM

7. Replace fear-motivated behavior with love-motivated behavior.

That's sage advice. So that means no more "pre-emptive" attacks on other countries in the name of the "war on terror", right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM

Ha! You're so right, Bruce. I should stop all this danged conceptualizing right now!

Yeah, Christmas was pretty good. How about yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM

'That's why Jesus advised his disciples not to "cast pearls before swine, for they will turn and rend you".'

I will have you know that I have never been rended by a pearl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:50 PM

Christmas in the secular sense was as nothing to me for I abhor--or rather, in the spirit of this thread, mildly dislike--the internal vacuum it leaves when it passes.

The spiritual aspect was normal in the sense that I sent some prayers into outer space on behalf of people I know and don't know, asking for the usual stuff: peace on Earth, food for the hungry and maybe one bitchin' big lightening bolt to wake up the leaders of this world so that it can achieve an awareness it presently lacks. Thanks for asking, LH.

PS You were in one of the prayers also. FYI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 04:55 PM

Yeah, I've realised that you have to accept the world as it is. That means accepting a world which is run according to one economic model: the one that states that the world's resources are infinite and can be exploited indefinitely at an accelerating rate. This model may be incredibly dumb, and means that the human race (my species and your species) is condeming itself to inevitable extinction, but there is absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it, is there? So, extinction here we come! I gratefully accept our fate and I love everyone - every goddammned futureless one of you ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:14 PM

Your analysis of the economic model is accurate, DB...and it will either change...or billions will die needlessly. I hope it changes.


Bruce - Thanks. I certainly appreciate that. I also find Christmas a rather tough time to get through, generally speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM

Good thread, Herb. You can't change the handwringers here though. They think they are God's folk music gift to humanity. Amos is one obsessed sick puppy who like a few others here haven't much life except to rant about Bush and be Al Quaida's friend.

Little Hawk, way too much Jesus talk. You are starting to sound like something off of cable TV at 2 in the morning. Plenty of people are doing just fine with God alone and don't need Jesus for anything. In case you haven't notices, more and more churches don't have crosses or steeples these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Bobert in north Carolina
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM

Well,well,well...

Being stuck downn here in N.C. with the -Vine's kids, I needed a good chuckle so...

Ha, ha, and ha...

Seems like the folks here with the most anger ain't the anti-war, pro-human and pro-Earth folks but the Bushites who are filled with personal venom while defending positions that are motivated by their fears and hate...

Yerah, this thread should have been titled " Advicer for the Bushites here"

Peace from Mt.Holly, NC...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:56 PM

I take issue with the idea that trying to maintain a sort of tranquil indifference in the face of some of the things that are going on in the world—especially if you can do something about it by speaking out strongly—as a failure to be a human being. Rabbi Zusya said, "When I am called before my Maker to be judged, I will not be asked, 'Why were you not Moses?' I will be asked, 'Why were you not Zusya?'"

"Unnecessary anger?" I don't think so. There is plenty for a rational human being to be angry about.

I am not normally an angry kind of person, but when I see the things this country's administration is doing, I don't see how anyone with a sense of decency can not get angry. In general, the Bush administration (the latest and most arrogantly blatant, but definitely not the first) is conducting policies, both foreign and domestic, that go against every principle and ideal that this country is supposed to stand for:   launching a war of aggression for control of resources and geopolitical power and lying through its teeth about the real reasons for it; claiming to protect its citizens against terrorist attacks by making the situations that cause them even worse, while at the same time failing to take real precautions to protect the citizenry against such attacks;   giving massive tax-cuts to the wealthiest segment of its population while increasing government spending to mind-boggling levels, running up a national debt that will take generations to pay off (if ever!), and using the results of it's own blatant fiscal irresponsibility as an excuse to cut funding for necessities for the most vulnerable of its citizens, including funding for education, Medicare and Medicaid, and the food stamps that some need merely to survive;   lies, cover-ups, a covert policy of torture, spying on its own citizens, appointing incompetent and indifferent cronies to positions of responsibility, and general arrogance, indifference, ineptitude, and stumble-bummery, all in the name of greed and in pursuit of the Almighty Dollar—not to mention not-so-covert attempts to support the establishment of a state religion (Christian fundamentalism) and improperly use Constitutional amendments and the Judiciary branch of government to legislate moral standards (the Bush administration, wanting to dictate moral standards!!??).

Beyond the above litany of malfeasance, let me give you one (just one) specific example of the kind of thing that makes steam pour put of my ears:   among the Medicare cuts that passed was cutting funds for home oxygen service for people who need it. But then, funding for this (thankfully for a friend of mine, whose life depends on it) was restored. The reason it was restored? The business of suppliers of home oxygen service would take a substantial hit if this funding cut was allowed to stand. And they have a strong lobbyist. So—did Congress restore funding because of any real concern for the people who depended on home oxygen service? No! Congress restored it because somebody with a loud voice in Washington, D. C., was going to lose money. That's what counts in this uncivilized and benighted country. Money. Only money.

Now if that doesn't make you angry, then you're either some kind of self-centered monster, or they should throw a sheet over you, put a tag on your toe, and close the drawer.

I give GUEST,Herb, who started this thread, the benefit of the doubt, that with an admirable combination of enthusiasm for the philosophical outlook of Deepak Chopra and an desire to see people avoid getting unduly worked up, he failed to think the matter through to it's logical conclusion. Especially within the context of the title of the thread, this tends to sound like a brief for acceptance of whatever kind of atrocity comes down the pike. I'm quite sure that any tyrant or tyrant's lackey would quote (and have often quoted) something similar.

Evil triumphs when good people do nothing.

The point is, GET angry!! Get angry enough to DO something about it!

Don Firth
(mutter mutter snarl!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Bobert in North Carlolina
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM

Just thought of one more thing...

My ex-wifes father was a lobbiest for the American Petroleum Institute... It was his job to go before congressional heaings after oil spill and give his standardized "Don't worry, be happy" testimnony about how nature takes care of things like that...

About a month after his last congression testimony he was diagnosed with some sever allergies of certain chedmical, including the ink that is used in printin' and couldn't breathe if there was so much as a newspaper in the house...

Not too sure why this thread made me think of him but it has somerthing to do with thaat Karma thing...

Yeah, it's easy to go thru life with "Don't worry, be happy" blinders on but it might not be gthe best thing for one's own health or the health of the Earth and ints inhabitants...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 06:25 PM

I have no objection to people relying on God alone, Martin, and the cross is a symbol I don't identify with much.

The subject of Jesus just happened to come up, and I do admire his teachings and example. I could say the same of Krishna or Buddha or Lao-Tse, if it comes to that, and of many others.

Not judging others, folks, does NOT mean one is incapable of resisting evil, defending oneself, and taking necessary action in any emergency or situation. By no means. It just means not saying inside yourself (or openly) about another, "I am better than you. You are dirt under my feet. You're no good. Neither are those who are like you. You deserve no mercy. I am going to heaven and you're not...nyah, nyah, nyah!". Such inner assumptions poison a person, bit by bit.

Is your passion driven by hatred or love? In most cases, it's some of both. It would be wise to weed out the hatred as time goes by. But I speak only for myself, because I'm not anyone else's keeper, am I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 06:54 PM

"Amos is one obsessed sick puppy who like a few others here haven't much life except to rant about Bush and be Al Quaida's friend."

Amos is one of the finest people a guy's ever likely to meet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: leftydee
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM

Thank you Don and Bobert for pointing out that, yes, we live in a world where things do count. Old Guy almost had it right when he said,"life's a bitch, then you die". The reality is Life's a bitch, then you leave a legacy whether you want to or not, then you die.

There's lots of the "Don't worry, be happy" crapola going around. Ignoring the elephant doesn't work. I hope my legacy will be that I was paying attention to what was good for my family, my country and my world. If you're paying attention, I'll bet you're pissed off too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 07:54 PM

Well, Old Guy, you misunderstand me and clearly my ironic "enlightened" talk went past you like a speeding bullet. There is no misery in my life, and very little in the way of hatred. The reason I called W all those names is because, well, I think he is.

But I have too many things going on, despite Gibbon's hallucinations about me, tyo dwell on your or his distortions of me. I have two boooks in the works, a CD to finish editing, and a loving and wonderful small familly to support and encourage. Plus a number of building and maintenance projects around the house.

God speed to both of you, and may you reach as much awareness as you truly want to reach.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 07:58 PM

Yeah, but you used fancy names for Bush. I just call him an asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM

Trashy psychobabble. If everybody followed it we'd still be in caves.
Life is something to grab and ride for all your worth, and when a Hitler or even a Bush or a Blair comes along anger is a necessary tool for change. And do we need things to change!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:14 PM

Brave words from a secret place, Guest; if your own psychobabble was a little less trashy you might have the courage to own your own name.

Sniping from dark corners is scarcely riding anything.

But, yes, we truly need things to change, no question! Happy New Year.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:26 PM

Keriste. Is it January 1 already?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM

Little Hawk, I once heard a philosopher of ethics say, "Yes, if you are going to be an ethical person, you must judge the behavior of others and the beliefs that lead them to that behavior. And furthermore, you must be prepared to be judged on the basis of the judgments that you make!"

That makes perfect sense to me. Although this idea of "Judge not, least ye be judged" has a lot of credence because it is attributed to Jesus (recent research into what's been referred to as the "Q Gospel"—examinations of Biblical texts and contemporary accounts that, for various reasons, were excluded from the Bible—indicated that much is attributed to Jesus that it is doubtful he actually said at all), if you examine the concept logically, what my philosophy prof said makes a lot of sense—if you are to act in the world, and not just sit back and watch the passing parade with a sort of bland indifference to everything. This does not necessarily mean that you hate someone or consider yourself superior to him or her because you judge their actions to be wrong, immoral, or unethical. You are judging the person's behavior.

I believe that in Dante's Inferno, the lowest level of hell is reserved for those who "do not wish to get involved" and are content to merely observe all manner of evil with a casual indifference.

When you see cruelty, injustice, and indifference to the suffering of others and you become incensed by it, this comes from love. It's either hatred for those suffering from injustice or simply this damning "casual indifference" that allows someone to look the other way.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:31 PM

Don Firth, your essay is going on my bulletin board- when I get tired of the same old non-productive efforts it will spur me on to look for new ways and avenues. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:38 PM

Amos, there is truly no misery in my life or real hatred, either. The reason I called you one sick puppy who rants about Bush everyday is because you are. And you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 08:42 PM

Well, Martin he does speak against Bush everyday, but he's not a sick puppy. And personally I am very glad that there's no misery in your life, and may you never have any. Shalom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:04 PM

Martin:

You are deeply beguiled by the noise of your own words. I post articles against Bush when I find ones which seem articulate and coherent. I have even occasionally posted remarks in favour of him, although much more rarely. More important I am neither sick, nor a puppy; I am a man, as you are, and I think and feel as you do. You'll have to look elsewhere to find someone to crunch up and spit out with your shallow rhetorical devices.

Amos


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:23 PM

I agree 100% with everything you said, Don.

At the same time, I agree 100% with everything Deepak Chopra said in the first post on this thread. I don't see a conflict there.

You see, Chopra's discourse is intended primarily to instruct someone how to manage their own inner consciousness, it's not intended to tell you what to do about a social injustice. Your discourse is about the outer circumstances of life and how to deal with them...his is about the inner state of mind and how to best manage it to keep yourself in a healthy state of mind.

I would NEVER recommend to someone to sit back, uninvolved, and "content to merely observe all manner of evil with a casual indifference."

It looks to me like those who have truly learned first not to judge others are those most likely to become powerfully involved in the battle for equality and social justice, even to the point of risking and losing their own lives for the cause. Gandhi was a fine example of that.

He didn't bitch endlessly about how awful and evil and despicable the British were (they're essentially no more awful or evil than anyone else). He pointed out the clear injustices in his society, and stood up for the rights of the oppressed people who were under the British rule, and spoke in favour of what he believed in. If he were inclined to judgement, he would probably have organized clandestine groups of assassins and killed British officials and civilians too, in all likelihood...or he would have incited an armed revolt and started a war. Therein lies the difference.

To overcome judgement of others (and even of self) is a subtle business, and most people are not even slightly inclined to take it on. To judge wrongful outer behaviour is far easier and more obvious, and comes naturally to people. Self-realization has NOTHING to do with not getting involved, "ignoring the elephant", being blandly indifferent or anything like that. Was Jesus blandly indifferent?

In my experience, the people who tend to be blandly indifferent are those who complacently accept the norm exactly as it is, concentrate on filling their faces in front of the TV, and JUDGE other people with a vengeance. They do not empathize at all with most other people, so they feel entirely justified in supporting condemning them out of hand, executing them, humiliating them, and so on.

Chopra's talking about dealing with consciousness. You're talking about dealing with social issues. Of COURSE we need to judge people's behaviour. Try behaving destructively in any genuine spiritual community, and see if people don't call you on it right away. They will. The thing is, though, spiritual communities usually attract rather peacefully-minded people...although there have been notable exceptions to that among certain groups of zealots here and there!

"When you see cruelty, injustice, and indifference to the suffering of others and you become incensed by it, this comes from love."

Absolutely.

Bush probably imagines that HE is standing up for justice and equality and all good and decent things. But...he has no hesitation to judge others as completely "evil", does he? And on that basis, we have a nonsensical War Against Terror, which is itself a contradiction in terms and is unresolvable and essentially unwinnable (just like the War on Drugs). He needs to study and apply some Deepak Chopra. ;-)

Lao Tse put it this way: by attacking an enemy, you give him strength. If you believe implicitly in attack to solve your problems you will always have enemies and never have peace for very long...only brief pauses between one struggle and the next. The old enemy will return in a new form, with another face.

As for anger...an outward and resolute use of righteous anger can be quite appropriate in certain situations as long as the anger doesn't hijack you and cause you to lose control and descend into hatred and vengeance. Remember the cobra that decided to be spiritual and not hurt anyone? (it was on the strong advice of a sage, who had been called for help by villagers who feared the cobra) The villagers, discovering that the cobra had become surprisingly passive, beat it almost to death, in reprisal for its previous attacks on people. When the sage returned, he found the cobra nearly dead. "You foolish snake!" he exclaimed. "I told you not to bite. I didn't tell you not to HISS!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:30 PM

And later that same snake saw a Ganges crocodile, and because he had to cross the river he asked if he could ride on the crocodile's back. The croc said sure. Then the snake hesitated. He said, "But how do I know you won't eat me?" The croc said, "I won't. Just get on my back and we'll cross." The snake did. Halfway there the croc dumped the snake in the water and bit him in two. As the snake felt his life ebbing, he said, "But you said you wouldn't." The croc replied, "That's India, baby."


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM

LOL! I like that ceiling joke. (it may be old, but it was new to me...)

Man, I wish that I had the gumption to spend as much time exercising as I do typing on this flippin' keyboard.

I'd be a regular Charles Atlas by now.

So, who is this "Monk" character you speak of?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM

Come on, Bruce...cobras aren't that stupid! ;-) Anyway, they are superb swimmers from what I hear. They don't need no steenkin' crocodiles!


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:40 PM

"Cobras belong to the sub-group of snakes known as elapids; there are over 270 species of cobras and their relatives. An elapid's venom contains postsynaptic neurotoxins that spread rapidly in its victim's bloodstream, causing respiratory failure and, eventually, death."

OK then. So, the cobra whose mom hadn't taught it to swim wanted to cross the river. He asked the croc for a ride. The croc said, "OK, but how do I know you won't bite me and kill me." The sanke said, "I would never do such a dastardly thing." Off they went. When they got to the other side the snake turned and bit the croc. As the croc lay gasping and starting to get lifeless he said, "But, but, but you sid you wouldn't." The snake replied, "Hey, that's India, baby!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:52 PM

Heh! So...you don't trust India, eh? Yeah, I figure I'd be pretty careful there too. There are a lot of tricky people in this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 09:58 PM

You know, if we could get the damned politicians to find honest work . . . .

I have met people from at least half the countries of this world at one time or other and darned near all of them have been nice people. I agree with Will Rogers, although I have met a few who should be shot on sight for no reason other than they deserve it.

Actually, that old saw was originally about Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Arkie
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 11:15 PM

Why are Dr. Deepak Chopra's remarks addressed only to anti-bushites and and the anti-war folks here?   Mention Kerry, Clinton, Gore, responsibility for the environment or fiscal responsibility and there is so much venom in the air you would think you stepped in a rattlesnake nest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Berserker Nordstrom
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 11:41 PM

Yes, Arkie, I think our friend Herb (where has he gone, by the way?) was trying to slip a point by folks here. Didn't work, though.

Berserker


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 12:40 AM

Martin:

While I enjoy gathering up insights into the insanity of your boys half-assed efforts to ruin the United States, it is not a compulsion; I'd drop it in a minute if I needed the time to attend to my many other irons, but as it happens I have a little time to also maintain that thread. SO sorry you don't care for it. Don't ask me why you keep coming back.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM

Good advices here, but they are not necessary for me. You see, I'm already rational and caring and never filled with rage or anger. But all the others who don't agree with me on politics or other aspects of life they should really look in the mirror and recognize themselves.

As I said, good advice for all the others.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Bobert Still in North Carolina
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 07:43 AM

Ahhhh, not to be splitting hairs here but I've been thinking about this thread and think it's about time to challenge the terms "rant"and "Bush bashers"...

Yeah, I believe that thosse of us who have been critical of the in-humane, anti Earth policies of the Bush "administartion" have not been forcefull enough enough when ***labeled*** Bush bashers and ranters... This derbate needs to be re-framed into one of basic values on human life and care foe the planet we all share...

This ain't about ranting and it certainly iisn't about bashing Bush, the man... It is, however, very much about standing up to policies which tend to favor war, greed and the wealthy...

Yeah, from here out, for all of you folks who thought you might be beyond thinking you won't get a challenge in using either the "r" word or the "B-b" word as if its a victory you have somehow won, forget it... Them days is over...

Sheriff Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM

Bobert raises a good point. The initial distortion inthis thread is the covert implication that those who oppose war are the ones in need of psychological adjustment, and are probably also those who are busy bashing Bush.

Cheny is twice the asshole Bush is, so that takes care of that charge.

As for war, you're either for it or against it. I'm agin it.

As Bobert points out what I am FOR is far more important than what I am against. I am for sanity, creative management, fiscal balance and increased survivability of the people and groups that make up the country. I am for fair management of the national reputation and the national assets, and the preservation of the COnstitution and the rights it embodies.

Bush disagrees with me on some of this, but I can't help that.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:18 PM

For Bobert and Amos:

Ever heard of a book called the power of positive thinking?

I didn't think so. You two would be immiune to such practical thinking

Norman Vincent Peale died on 12/24/93 at the age of 95. He wrote more than 46 books during his lifetime. His most popular book, The Power of Positive Thinking, was written in 1952 and has sold more than 20 million copies in 41 languages. It was the model for a flood of self-help books that followed. In 1945, Peale and his wife started Guideposts magazine; its circulation now tops 5 million, the largest of any religious magazine. Peale also pastored New York City's (Manhattan) Marble Collegiate Church for 52 years (a Protestant Dutch Reformed church founded in 1628). It had 600 members when he arrived to pastor in 1932; it had over 5,000 by the time he retired in 1984. For 54 years Peale's weekly radio program, "The Art of Living," was broadcast on NBC. His sermons were mailed to 750,000 people a month. His life was subject of a 1964 movie entitled One Man's Way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:27 PM

GUEST,Old Guy, what is the relevance of this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:34 PM

Amos how come you have "two boooks in the works, a CD to finish editing, and a loving and wonderful small familly to support and encourage. Plus a number of building and maintenance projects around the house" in such a hellish country?

Sure the dangerous mr Bush has ruined all of this for you or at least part of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Bobert Still in North Carolina
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:35 PM

Haha, O-Guy,

I know all about that stuff and more...

In my family it was not only NVP but Dale Carniegie... My father taught Dale Carneigie and I took several classess...

No, it's more tha just having a good attitude but having a good heart... Hitler had a good attitude...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:39 PM

The relavance is the whiners here like Amos and Bobert think that negative thinking is good and positive thinking is stupid.

This makes them miserable, unhappy, whining, crybabys. They ooze sarcasim, hatred and anarchy and they change nothing. They need to grasp reality and adapt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,A
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:40 PM

Bobert, you are the eight wonder of the world.


Or so you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:46 PM

Old Guy:

I only complain about tyrrany, stupidity and evil-mindedness, and then only when I see others being buffaloed by it. As in your case. I am generally a cheerful, affectionate, productive guy with lots to do and good reasons to do it. I just don't like seeing a gang of thugs mess with the sandbox, that's all.

I have read Peale, long ago, and a number of other such works, like Carnegie's famous winning friends and influencing peole.

You are completely right that, in general, we are much happier pursuing positive goals and targets. I spend almost all my time doing so. The posts I put up here take very little of my day and fulfill a commitment of mine not to remain silence in the face of tyranny. Nothing is worse than not communicating when the time for communicating is upon you.

Hope you have a wonderful and busy New Year, full of more accurate observations than heretofore.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM

It seems to me that those who think public discourse about current events is "negative thinking", don't know very much about the nature of the public discourse that took place in the British colonies in what is now the United States during the period leading up to the United States' war of independence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Bobert Still in North Carolina
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM

Nah, not really, A...

Jus' a regular guy
never got rich
but always got by...

And fir the record, O-Guy.... You are the whiner... All you do is whine, whine and whine more about Amos and me... you are eternally stuck in the whine mode...

Might of fact, I have nominted you to the "Whiner's Hall of Fame", right along with Martin "the Whiner" Gibson, T "the whiner" bus, C-"the whiner" bar and all the rest of you washrag crybabies...

No more freee rides fir you and yer fellow sorry-ass whiners, Old Guy... Time to pay the piper, pal....

But, hey, peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM

Your are in the Bush Lied Hall Of Fame which includes, amongst others,The Rev, Jesse, Calypso Louie and the great Al Sharpton, Jane Fonda and Huckleberry Hound.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 11:42 PM

And so he should be in the BLHOF. Because Bush DID lie. Nice of you to say so at looooong last.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 11:46 PM

Good thoughts from Chopra. Pretty much, it is good advice too. And it comes down to being a paraphrase of the title of a book that is very important to me. That volume is Alan Watts' "The Wisdom Of Insecurity" But remember that acceptance of just about everything leads to living a life without getting bent out of shape when one sees obvious travesties being perpetrated. If we all did that, there never would've been an American Revolution, or any other revolution. Nobody would have bothered to do it.

Another good book it Rexford G. Tugwell's called "THE ROOSEVELT REVOLUTION."-----and a volume that has not been written yet ought to get the title "The Bush Revolution." No, this has not been a bloodless revolution. The war is proof of that. "9-11" was the excuse for the revolution. It will, alas, be up to a generation with more youth, health, and energy than what I now possess to try to take some of the good things back again. But it will take a long time to do it. You young ones have your work cut out for you!!

I hope you're up to the job! Many good and humane attitudes are now being jettisoned while I am being forced to watch. And it, seemingly, will make the last part of my life time a very sad and definitely a less than pleasurable span of years.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Alphabet
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:15 AM

So many of my letters have been absconded with by Guests who are regular members but ashamed of their various political positions that I thought it prudent to take the name Alphabet. Just in case I want to say bad things to people from ambush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:23 AM

Interesting point, Guest, Alphabet. Most Bush supporters posted under their regular screen names before Bush's approval ratings went south. Since then, it seems like there's a lot more people posting anonymously when they post in support of Bush. Very interesting indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 08:54 AM

Hey peace advocates...
Miserable? Become happy today with the new warfare state.

naw that dog don't hunt on two accounts.
1 I'm not miserable
2 The warfare state won't provide happiness.

The war advocates feel that facts can be changed to serve their unbending opinions.

Peace advocates feel that facts are absolute and opinions may change.

Bushites, in any case good luck with your accusations. Oftimes if they are really full of shit they stick to the wall when thrown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:14 AM

I would rather say that


The anti-war advocates feel that facts can be changed to serve their unbending opinions.

Peace advocates feel that facts are absolute and opinions may change.






There remains a difference between anti-war and pro-peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:59 AM

HEY yer bendin my Dogma! ;>}

good one

Did you ever notice that anti war people "protest"
and pro war people hold "vigils".

toon
man outside the Generic Organized Religion Establishment and asks
"Does your dogma bite?"
"no but dogma food doesn't come cheap"


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: TIA
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:00 AM

My dictionary defines peace as:

"The state prevailing duirng the absence of war."

Let peace = n

Therefore, war = -n

Anti-war = -(-n) = n = peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:03 AM

Ever notice that pro war folks have a wealth of patriotism and pro peace people are morally bankrupt? and visa versa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:32 AM

My math says that

a x a = a squared
-a x -a = a squared

therefore a x a = -a x -a

but -1 = i x i, thus

a squared = i fourth x a squared

taking the square root of both sides,

a = - a


therefore, war = peace given your definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: TIA
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM

Yours is a very well know joke proof that uses the square root incorrectly (there are two roots for every square).

There's a good (flawed) proof that 2=1 as well. And more here....


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:32 PM

Little Hawk (27/12 3.44) The conflict (of the Gita) is symbolic of the internal conflict of your soul not the real world

What is the diference?   If I am called upon to "slay my negativity" I must decide what negative means, choosing the "wrong" negative could lead to strsnge outcomes! Is this the basis for some of the more abarent behaviour displayed by people in a stressful situation?
Maybe GWB and Saddam Husein are realy good guys trying their best (and getting it wrong from my point of view)....or not.
I do try not to Judge...... but sometimes I can not come to any other rational conclusion.
It seems (to me) that the advice given tends to support a person existing without interacting with the world. My existance here is more inportant than that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:01 PM

Coffee all over the screen and keyboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:04 PM

catma gets a raw deal everywhere I look.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,War
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:14 PM

You can't have peace without war. Like night without day

By definition, peace is what happens after a war ends.

Just make damned sure you win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:06 PM

By definition, peace is what happens before war begins. It's only your ego, War, that makes you think you're necessary.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:08 PM

This is gettin' very metaphysical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,War
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:47 PM

CarolC, what makes you think you are necessary? Best use I can see is squirtin' out babies.

Which came first War or Peace?

You could be in a war for a long time and all of a sudden it gets a hell of a lot worse. after a while you woulfd think it was peacefull before the war got really bad.

You have to have a war once in a while to appreciate the peace in between.

Anybody that thinks they can eliminate war forever don't know what they are talking about. Someone will have differences with somebody else, it could be over what genre of music they like and eventually it will lead to war.

It is in human nature. Ever notice those mountain sheep butting heads? Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Alphabet
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:51 PM

Too bad your parents didn't use condoms, GUEST,War. What a pig you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,War
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM

Can I come and root in your potato patch?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 11:41 AM

CarolC, what makes you think you are necessary?

Nothing. And I have never tried to suggest that I am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,War
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:03 PM

We need womens to replenish the ranks for another war.

You know after Moses left Egypt and went to mount Sinai, his tribe stayed in the area for 40 years and built themselves up inot a hell of an army. Then they went back and captured the promised land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:30 PM

"You know after Moses left Egypt and went to mount Sinai, his tribe stayed in the area for 40 years and built themselves up inot a hell of an army. Then they went back and captured the promised land. " Guest/Agitated Person

And we all know how very peaceful it was after they captured it.

As for women being needed only for squirtin' out babies- have you ever watched the hands-on mechanical fertilizing that humankind performs on male hatchery salmon? Very edifying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:57 PM

Ok, let's try that again.

What has salmon, one of my favorit dishes have to do with anything? And who really cares?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 01:04 PM

Seems to me the Great Divide on these issues is not between war and peace, but between those who think they are meat animals and those who sense they are something more than that.

Civilizations grow and prosper when they are able to reduce war to a minimum and manage their connections with others through the exchange of ideas and products and services.

War-mongering is psychotic, inherently.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 04:56 PM

"I see a lot of unecessary anger here. Some people cannot accept the world as it is and they are constantly upset and fighting things they will never change."

Anger is a potent energy if used correctly.

"

"2. When you find yourself reacting with anger or opposition to any
person or circumstance, realize that you are only struggling with
yourself. Putting up resistance is the response of defenses created by
old hurts. When you relinquish this anger, you will be healing yourself and cooperating with the flow of the universe."

There is no human being that doesn't feel anger. To deny this is to deny human feelings. But it's important to channel the anger so that it doesn't eat you up.

"3. Live in the present, for it is the only moment you have. Keep your
attention on what is here and now; look for the fullness in every moment. Accept what comes to you totally and completely so that you can appreciate it, learn from it, and then let it go. The present is as it should be. It reflects infinite laws of Nature that have brought you this exact thought, this exact physical response. This moment is as it is because the universe is as it is. Don't struggle against the infinite scheme of things; instead, be at one with it."

It's not necessary to accept injustice in the world. This is the problem with so much "self-help spirituality". It denies the energy that channelled anger can do to create a better world.

"4. Relinquish your need for external approval. You alone are the judge
of your worth, and your goal is to discover infinite worth in yourself, no matter what anyone else thinks. There is great freedom in this realization."

This means to me that Chopra can't speak for all of us. The infinite worth is about not just you but for everyone. No navel gazing can make the world a better place.

"5. Know that the world "out there" reflects your reality "in here." The people you react to most strongly, whether you love or hate, are
projections of your inner world. What you most hate is what you most
deny in yourself. What you most love is what you most wish for in
yourself. Use the mirror of relationships to guide your evolution. The
goal is total self-knowledge. When you achieve that, what you most
want will automatically be there, and what you most dislike will
disappear."

Total self-knowledge is a pipe-dream. We can never completely know ourselves or anyone else. Injustice in the world is not always a self-projection. Guantanamo is not a self-projection but a real place.

"6. Don't contaminate your body with toxins, either through food, drink, or toxic emotions. Your body is more than a life-support system. It is the vehicle that will carry you on the journey of your evolution. The health of every cell directly contributes to your state of well-being, because every cell is a point of awareness within the field of awareness that is you."

Spiritual narcotics are a toxin. This comes about by insulating yourself from the injustice and compassion in the world.

"7. Replace fear-motivated behavior with love-motivated behavior. Fear is the product of memory, which dwells in the past. Remembering what hurt us before, we direct our energies toward making certain that an old hurt will not repeat itself. But trying to impose the past on the present will never wipe out the threat of being hurt. That happens only when you find the security of your own being, which is love. Motivated by the truth inside you, you can face any threat because your inner strength is invulnerable to fear."

In the best of all possible worlds, there would be no anger except that anger can be a love-motivated emotion. If I am angry at the injustice in the world, I believe that to be a form of love or compassion for those who are being persecuted. Agape if you like.
Anger is built into the human condition. Violence, however, can be and should be avoided at all costs. Anger is one thing. Violence is another. Ghandi was angry at the British Government for the injustice they inflicted on India. He chose to channel the anger into Satya Graha or "soul force" of peaceful resistance. He separated the anger at injustice from the anger toward the people who applied the injustice. If you are alive, you will feel anger.
How you handle it is what makes the difference between a toxic life and a productive one.

"8. Understand that the physical world is just a mirror of a deeper
intelligence. Intelligence is the invisible organizer of all matter and energy, and since a portion of this intelligence resides in you, you share in the organizing power of the cosmos. Because you are inseparably linked to everything, you cannot afford to foul the planet's air and water. But at a deeper level, you cannot afford to live with a toxic mind, because every thought makes an impression on the whole field of intelligence. Living in balance and purity is the highest good for you and the Earth."

It has to be stated that "toxicity" is often in the eye of the beholder. And we all have toxins in our system. How we handle them is another thing.


"9. Listen to your body's wisdom, which expresses itself through signals of comfort and discomfort. When choosing a certain behavior, ask your body, "How do you feel about this?" If your body sends a signal of physical or emotional distress, watch out. If your body sends a signal of comfort and eagerness, proceed."

If you are about to be devoured by a lion, you need the signal of physical or emotional distress for survival. This is why as a species we are still here. Again, it's how you handle it. Can you turn it around and use it as a life force?

"10. Take time to be silent, to meditate, to quiet the internal dialogue. In moments of silence, realize that you are recontacting your source of pure awareness. Pay attention to your inner life so that you can be guided by intuition rather than externally imposed interpretations of what is or isn't good for you."

Meditation is a healing thing. But some meditation can often lead to a narcosis whereby the meditator becomes detached from the compassion and feeling that guides us in our appreciation for other human beings.

In short, the citing of Chopra denies the instinct we have to want to help the world by recognizing and identifying injustice when it appears. It is our duty to peacefully resist injustice when it is foisted upon us by power-hungry and unfeeling despots regardless as to where they are in the world. This is how America was born, not through acquiesence but through resistance. Peaceful resistance is the most powerful force in the world when applied strategically. Without this resistance there can be no survival for our species.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 05:11 PM

Well said, Frank, well said.

Chopra's wisdom is very good stuff, no mistake, but reducing it to a litany of pre-packaged advised is a real adulteration, which reduces it to psychobabble because it is not written to a real situation with a particular human being in it.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,cloggere
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:16 PM

Maybe it's just that I live in a diferent world but..... isn't "Peace" what happens when we dont have "war"
It does not have to come before or after but exists all on it's own.
It can even exist in the midst of War! re:- the Chrismas football match (England v Germany) in WW1. The result of that was the rerfusal of those concerned (on both sides) to fight each other, even after hostilities were resumed. Makes you think doesn't it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM

Why is Carol nessesary?.
Cause she's beautiful , lucid, and has more balls "than a big brass monkey"....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 03:24 PM

Amos, that's what I think too. It's generalized information that when applied to what the discussion is here may or may not apply.

I also feel that anti-war and anti-bushites begs the question as to what is being said here. I think it's possible to disagree with Bush without being full of hate for him. I wouldn't say for example that I hate Al Capone but recognize what he did.

The advice for these interesting fictitous characters (anti-war=anti- bushites) is hollow indeed because they don't address real people and their concerns.

There is no one on this list who has advocated violence against the Bush Administration or any member thereof and I believe that such violence would be injurious to our Constitution and our American ideals. What the "Advisor" doesn't seem to recognize is that the dialogue is essentially corrupted not by ill feelings but by a lack of real information that the news media is not giving us.

But the facts are out there for anyone who cares to go beyond the propaganda of the Right-Wing PR firms. Because these facts are there, we are seeing an animosity of increasing proportions on the part of Right-Wing pundits and those who regurgitate the information they receive from the Hannity's, Coulter's, O'Reilly's and Limbaugh's
The only real thing that Karl Rove has done is to inflame the debate and break down the possibility of true communication.

Let's face it. The dialogue is dead now. We live in reactive times and no amount of advice from any well-wishing moralist will ameliorate that.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: TIA
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM

I agree. This whole bitter divide can be laid directly at the feet of Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, O'Reilly, Scarborough, Savage, Bortz, Carlson, and Ingraham. And it began the day that Reagan eradicated the Fairness Doctrine.

To those who disagree, please be honest. Did you stop to think even for a moment, or did you immediately label me stupid, dishonest or naive?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Herb
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 11:37 PM

You left out Pelosi, Dean and other left wingnuts. They are immune to the sanity of Chopra.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 11:39 PM

Chopra Windfree?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: TIA
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM

Oh, I forgot. When is Pelosi's show on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Herb
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:02 AM

Someone badly in need of some Chopra:

Not only are we going to New Hampshire, we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico, and we're going to California and Texas and New York...And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House! !!!

Yeeeaaaahhh


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,Robert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM

This is thread is quite philosophical and metaphysical and interesting, but I just have a one down-to-earth question and one opinionated statement:

1) What are "patriotic" people who sport "Support Our Troops" car stickers really trying to say? Do they mean that we should send money for their living expenses? Should we pray for them? Write them letters? Hold pep rallies for them? Do they mean to express the opinion that they are somehow more patriotic than the readers of those stickers? Or are they actually saying that we should rally behind the misguided adminstration policies that sent the troops to war in the first place?

2) I support the troops in that they are mostly just trying to do their jobs, and I feel sorry for them and their families and will pray for their safe return home, knowing that for some this won't be the case. I can't support the administration that caused them to have to go on yet another "policing-the-world" mission.

My sticker-in-response would unfortunately be too lengthy and too large to be practical for most vehicles: "If you claim to support our government's Iraq policy, but wouldn't be willing to go yourself or have your kids participate, then you're a hypocrite and should immediately peel that ribbon decal off your vehicle".


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:39 AM

Robert - I think they mean, don't bitch about the billions this war is costing you.

My bumper sticker would say, Support War and Pay More.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:21 PM

Herb quotes Howard Dean:

"Not only are we going to New Hampshire, we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico, and we're going to California and Texas and New York...And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House!!!"

a) does he realize what a hoax was perpetrated in publicizing this this incident?, and

b) shall we have a Dean quote vs. Bush quote contest? Yes, please, let's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:40 PM

You could put any two paragraphs from those two side by side and Dean would mop the floor with Bush's hairdo.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:25 PM

Chopra's answer (in part): "Look at the spelling of God: G stands for Generation; O stands for Organization; and D stands for Delivery. Therefore, GOD is the Generator, the Organizer, and the Deliverer of the Universe."

I love this one......does DOG stand for Deliverer Organisation and Generator then? Therefore a dog is the deliverer, organiser and generator of the universe? Or am I missing something?

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:57 PM

Mystic symbolism reminds me of people tearing up a map, scattering bits to the winds, and then chasing as fast as they can after the shards "in order to get where they are going". Too divorced from the territory to even read the map!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 11:25 AM

The polar ice cap has shrunk by half
If it is a lie it doesn't matter
I have never been there and have no plans to go.

Ethelene dibromide billows out of jet engines
covering the sky with thick spreading trails many miles wide.
If it is a lie it doesn't matter.
Its up there, I'm down here.

The land is deforested by 5% every year.
If it is a lie it doesn't matter
I see trees everyday.

They say we are making our military bullets, shells and bombs out of deadly uranium.
True or not, our enemy should have thought of that before they attacked us during the prememptive invasion.

I heard that my neighbor's daughter was killed in Iraq last weekend.
True or not I best not go over and ask, she might be touchy.
My kids are fine.

The bird flu has killed a few people in Asia and Turkey
in such small numbers its just like the numbers who died of bird flu in 1917.
If 70 million died in 1918 of bird flu it doesn't matter.
That was then, this is now.

Suicide bombers do not value human life, just like the Emperor worshipping Japs who made suicide charges or smashed the skulls of their mothers and sisters rather than surrender.
True or not it doesn't matter.
At least we still value human life.

People who leak so called truth are being investigated and are sent to jail.
True or not, I'm outraged by ranting Bush bashers like Cindy Shehan who are a disgrace to this great nation of faith.

They changed the broadcast times of American Idol.
If it is true it doesn't matter,
but its still pure torture to reprogram a TIVO.






http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/BLISS.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Advice for anti-war anti-bushites here
From: Madeleine
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 08:42 AM

kumayah, my lord, kumbayah.

you guy's are so much fun; i love this.

every president gets bashed but, not all of them gamble recklessly with the lives of others.

this is my plan for the next election: if mccain runs with powell i'll vote for them, even though i'm registered as a democrat. to clean up that mess in iraq it'll take real military genius. anyway, the republicans made the mess and they should clean it up. i'm sorely dissapointed in our democrat party. they should ditch the halos and play dirty.


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