mudcat.org: Law prevents carol singing
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


Law prevents carol singing

The Shambles 20 Dec 05 - 06:33 AM
The Shambles 20 Dec 05 - 06:38 AM
The Villan 20 Dec 05 - 06:42 AM
The Shambles 20 Dec 05 - 06:45 AM
DMcG 20 Dec 05 - 06:45 AM
DMcG 20 Dec 05 - 06:49 AM
Flash Company 20 Dec 05 - 06:53 AM
Grab 20 Dec 05 - 07:02 AM
DMcG 20 Dec 05 - 07:27 AM
s&r 20 Dec 05 - 07:32 AM
DMcG 20 Dec 05 - 07:37 AM
Billy Suggers 20 Dec 05 - 09:35 AM
GUEST 20 Dec 05 - 10:26 AM
DMcG 20 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 20 Dec 05 - 12:05 PM
JohnB 20 Dec 05 - 12:54 PM
Grab 20 Dec 05 - 01:03 PM
Wesley S 20 Dec 05 - 01:06 PM
The Villan 20 Dec 05 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,abs 20 Dec 05 - 01:12 PM
Rank 20 Dec 05 - 01:49 PM
BB 20 Dec 05 - 02:52 PM
PennyBlack 20 Dec 05 - 08:43 PM
JohnB 20 Dec 05 - 09:29 PM
The Shambles 21 Dec 05 - 02:05 AM
The Shambles 21 Dec 05 - 02:07 AM
GUEST,pavane 21 Dec 05 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,DB 21 Dec 05 - 04:12 AM
DMcG 21 Dec 05 - 09:46 AM
Wilfried Schaum 21 Dec 05 - 10:06 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Dec 05 - 10:23 AM
s&r 21 Dec 05 - 10:30 AM
s&r 21 Dec 05 - 10:32 AM
Wesley S 21 Dec 05 - 11:01 AM
The Shambles 21 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM
PennyBlack 21 Dec 05 - 12:05 PM
Wesley S 21 Dec 05 - 12:17 PM
MMario 21 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM
Wesley S 21 Dec 05 - 12:36 PM
The Shambles 21 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM
The Shambles 21 Dec 05 - 08:01 PM
The Shambles 21 Dec 05 - 08:35 PM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,pavane 22 Dec 05 - 07:26 AM
PennyBlack 22 Dec 05 - 07:49 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 09:20 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 09:46 AM
PennyBlack 22 Dec 05 - 11:13 AM
Tootler 22 Dec 05 - 12:20 PM
PennyBlack 22 Dec 05 - 01:07 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: Law prevents carol singing.
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:33 AM

http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED18%20Dec%202005%2020:45:12:420

The following extract from the above.

Carol singing licensing confusion

19 December 2005 07:30


Church leaders were forced to pull the plug on a popular outdoor carol service in Norfolk over the weekend amid fears it would breach public performance legislation.

And now there are concerns that many other carol singing events in the run up to Christmas could be in breach of licensing regulations.

The confusion over licensing saw the inter-denominational Christmas carol service called off at the last minute..........................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:38 AM

This is what the department for culture, media and sport website says:

"Carol singers going from door to door, or just deciding to sing in a particular place, or even turning up unannounced in a pub and singing, would not require a licence, just as drinkers in a public house who suddenly decided to start singing carols would not be licensable.

"However, if a business in a shopping mall, for example, arranges for a group of singers to sing carols this will be the same as their arranging any performance of live music and a premises licence or temporary event notice would be required."


The above is not what the words of the Licensing Act 2003 say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: The Villan
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:42 AM

How ludicrous and stupid.

Will they ban all western music next just like Iran.

There are some absolute arseholes running this country.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:45 AM

See also Affected by the Licensing Act 2003


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:45 AM

I agree with Shambles that that is not what the Act says. But even so, I can see why an organised Carol Service of the kind mentioned in the first post could be thought closer to the second DCMS example than carol singers 'just deciding to sing in a particular place'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:49 AM

I should have read the article before I posted. This sentence is significant:

The churches say they sought guidance from South Norfolk District Council, which indicated a licence was required but that it was too late to apply.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: Flash Company
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:53 AM

A group of Carol Singers in 'Dickensian' costume accompanied by a dog on a lead, struck up outside a house in Weymouth. When the door was opened, the nine singers and dog, burst into the house and arrested the occupants for posession of cocaine.
Wonder how they stand with the Licensing Act 2003?

FC


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: Grab
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:02 AM

So the people at that church didn't know about the part of the Act that specifically excludes singing as part of a religious service from licensing? To quote from the Act, Schedule 1 Part 3:-

The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities-
(a) for the purposes of, or for purposes incidental to, a religious meeting or service, or
(b) at a place of public religious worship,
is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act.


So the law is actually outstandingly clear on this - there's no confusion in the law at all. And whether the carol service takes place in a church or in the town centre, it's automatically exempt. Carol-singing *not* as part of a religious service though would still be licensable, because it's being done as entertainment.

From the link:-

The churches say they sought guidance from South Norfolk District Council, which indicated a licence was required but that it was too late to apply.

The fault here is clearly with the council in providing crap information. Villan's dead right - there *are* some absolute arseholes running the country - but the location of those arseholes is not what that article suggests. Shallit's Razor:-

"Never attribute to conspiracy what may be adequately explained by stupidity or incompetence."

Graham.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:27 AM

I see your point, Graham, but if I was playing devil's advocate I would argue that being organised by a religous group is not sufficient to make it a religious service [and therefore exempt]. For example, the Act says exempt singing should be part of a (presumably larger) service. Is that the case? Is there preaching, for example?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: s&r
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:32 AM

Carol singing is a religious meeting in itself (doesn't have to be a service)

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:37 AM

Well, stu, Graham and the DCMS both indicated that carol singing would in some circumstances require a licence. Let me make myself clear: I don't think it ever *should* require a licence but I can see that councils will sometimes insist on a licence.

I've email my MP (Conservative) with this example, bye the bye, and asked him to press the Government to say what futher steps they intend to take to clarify that events such as this do not need a licence. I don't expect anything to happen, but it can do no harm.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: Billy Suggers
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:35 AM

Cor!

The Beerfordbury Wassail got off lightly ! - I reckon on the basis of all of this the whole 30 of us oughta be spending Christmas in Chelmsford prison

... on second thoughts ...

as Mum's coming for Dinner can I have a volunteer to shop me?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:26 AM

The world has gone bloody mad..what nonsense.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM

My MP has responded. Ok, all that has happened so far is that he has promised to get in touch with Richard Bacon (the local MP) and to write to DCMS for an explanation, but even so to get any response in less than 4 hours is pretty good going.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:05 PM

What about barbara?

Jerry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: JohnB
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:54 PM

Why don't you all quit and move to Canada, we don't have to put up with this BULL.
JohnB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: Grab
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:03 PM

Buggered if I know. :-) But in my experience of singing along to them, "carol service" generally involves a dose of sermons in your sing-song, whereas "carol concert" would involve singing but not sermonising.

My personal feel is that if you sing Christian songs then it doesn't automatically make the performance religious - think David Bowie doing "Little drummer boy", or a whole bunch of country singers. Something needs to differentiate between a Christian song as entertainment and a Christian song as praise. But anyway, that's only marginally relevant to the thread.

Graham.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:06 PM

Isn't peaceful civil disobedience called for at a time like this ? What type of fines or imprisonment are we talking about here ? Wouldn't most judges throw this out of court ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: The Villan
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:06 PM

Have the PRS and MCPS got God on their books?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: GUEST,abs
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:12 PM

and did they intending to make a collection? this would have an effect on the licence requirement.

Stu - singing carols is surprisingly not necessarily a religious meeting.

Has the local council not raised a licence for this Public Place?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: Rank
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:49 PM

I was thinking about reviving the Derby Tup in Killamarsh this year, but due to slothfulness didn't get round to it. Perhaps next Christmas. I assumed that we would be runnung foul of the law, but the government aren't very law abiding, so I don't see why I should be.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: BB
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:52 PM

Depends where you're intending to perform the Tup Play. If you're going round the pubs, you need to check whether they have 'ticked the box' for entertainment - if so, you should be OK. If not the pubs, but in public places, you would need a separate Temporary Event Notice for each place at which you want to perform.

Barbara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: PennyBlack
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:43 PM

Will be interested to see what if any action is taken on this one, and whether the new licensing law will be invoked to stop them!

Singers defy Parliament demo ban

The new law bans unauthorised protests within a half-mile radius
Carol singers are to become the latest group to defy a ban on unauthorised protests around Parliament.
The group will test the limits of the new Serious Organised Crime and Police Act by singing in Parliament Square from 1800 GMT on Wednesday.

The law makes demonstrating without police permission an arrestable offence near Parliament. Singers include long-term anti-war protester Brian Haw and Maya Evans - the first protester to be convicted.

Ironically Mr Haw is the one protester exempt from the ban, due to a Home Office drafting error.

He successfully argued in the High Court that as his four-year vigil pre-dated the law, he did not have to apply for authorisation to continue.

Since the law came into force in August, several people have been arrested and other protesters have been warned off.

Peace campaigner Ms Evans was the first to be convicted under the Act, after reading out the names of soldiers killed in Iraq at the Cenotaph.

Mr Haw will lead the Lord's Prayer at the service on Wednesday, joined by others including former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray, and a 7 July bombings survivor.

A spokesman for the carol singers, Tim Ireland, said: "In this instance, the police have not been notified. They've been invited, certainly, but they have not been notified.

"We believe that the public has the right to gather in a public place and sing Christmas carols. The police may see things differently, we shall see."

A Scotland Yard spokeswoman was not able to comment on whether a carol service constituted a demonstration and said a decision about whether to take action would be taken on the day.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: JohnB
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:29 PM

Sorry the body won't be there, the spirit is however with the singers.
Godd Luck and Good Singing, JohnB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:05 AM

Penny Black - where and when did this item appear?

A Scotland Yard spokeswoman was not able to comment on whether a carol service constituted a demonstration and said a decision about whether to take action would be taken on the day.

Intersting decision for the police. Carol singing is either a political demonstration or a Regulated Entertainment.

Perhaps there is a third option that it neither?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:07 AM

Can who ever inserted 'England' to this thread's title please remove it?
    I won't bother finding out who made the title change, but I can see no good reason for the change to have been made - so I changed it back. I would expect to see a location added to titles of threads about concerts or tours, not for every damn thing.
    -Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:52 AM

Could it be BOTH at the same time? Why not?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:12 AM

Any chance of rock music being banned?

...thought not!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 09:46 AM

The web site that carried the article that started this thread is now displaying this:

How joyful and triumphant
Hundreds of carol-singers will be able to carry on carolling between now and Christmas, after the Government moved to clarify confusion over new licensing laws - thanks to the EDP. It means that scores of traditional performances and concerts - facing possible cancellation amid uncertainty over the licensing of outdoor events - will now be able to go ahead, without the fear of action.

I am searching for further detail...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 10:06 AM

Has anybody considered that the root of carol singing is busking?
Young Martin Luther is known to have sung carols from door to door with other poor pupils of his local school to add to their livelihood.

Ban laws on folk!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 10:23 AM

Wesley S,

The maximum penalty for the organisers is Ł20,000 fine or six months jail, or both.

Shambles,

Why should the person who added England remove it, as it makes clear the fact that this does not affect the USA, or Canada, or indeed many other countries, including Scotland.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (UK not Scotland)
From: s&r
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 10:30 AM

Does that help?

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: s&r
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 10:32 AM

Oh well, it printed on my post but not on the header.

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:01 AM

Don T. - Thanks for your reply. Has anyone actually been arrested or prosecuted yet ? I'm going to make an assumpion that in England there is a freedom of religion law of some sort that would protect this activity. Who says a church meeting needs to be indoors ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing.
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4545704.stm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: PennyBlack
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 12:05 PM

Shambles -

Carol Protest Demo Link - BBC

Wesley S wrote
I'm going to make an assumption that in England there is a freedom of religion law

Carol Singing is not necessarily connected with religion some treat it like "Penny for the Guy" or "Trick or Treat" a general Fund Raiser or just enjoy singing the songs. I bet there's a few atheists that have sung Gaudete in their time (and made a few bob from singing it) :0)

PB

PB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 12:17 PM

If it were me - I'd sing anyway and claim it's religious persecution if I were arrested. Then fight it in court.

And y'all must be in a bad way if you need permission from the police to protest near Parliment. What's up with that ? Am I missing something ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: MMario
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM

Wesley - you'd have to get a permit to protest near the senate or the white house - so why not permission to protest near paliment?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 12:36 PM

I guess I need a definition of "near".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM

I wonder just how many illegal carol singing events are currently taking place outside our supermarkets. I have just heard of one locally where the Mayor of my borough actually sang at such an unlicensed event.

The particpants claim that they were not singing for the purpose of entertaining an audience - valid or not - with my knowledge of his particpation - I am sure that it is a claim that our mayor will now be most eager to support.

Before this he was quite supportive of his officer's view that all music making was for the purpose of entertaining an audience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 08:01 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/20/ncarol20.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/12/20/ixhome.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 08:35 PM

Oh I forgot to mention that The Mayor is also vice-chairman of the Licensing Committee.........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:42 AM

Shambles,

Why should the person who added England remove it, as it makes clear the fact that this does not affect the USA, or Canada, or indeed many other countries, including Scotland.

Don T.


I do not say they should. I simply, respectfully and politely asked if they could. If I had thought it to be a good idea to include this in the title - I perhaps would have included it.

As I did not - a simple PM asking why and if I would object to any change being made to my chosen thread title would I think, to have been the polite, respectful, polite and classy way to proceed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 07:26 AM

Besides which, Wales is also affected, not just England


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: PennyBlack
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 07:49 AM

We have over the last "several" years (like many musicians) been involved in the changes to the licensing law and its effect on live music and have found various attitudes from the local councils and their enforcement officer ranging from "Jobsworth" to Vindictive and aggressive enforcement of the law, but most are ordinary people trying to get on with their jobs and will do their best to help.

One of our local councils has just replied to me with regards to "open area" events TEN etc. It also points out the fact (which we do not always take into account) that several internal departments of the council have to interact to bring about a resolution, and this isn't always a case of popping into the next office.


PB


------Edited Reply (names/locations removed)------



Pete,

I have this week had a meeting with *** *****, our arts and events officer, regarding the licensing act and the need to licence certain areas of the Borough to encourage cultural activity in line with our licensing policy. Top of that list was ********* but others were mentioned as well, some will need agreements with other parties such as ****** ****.

Clearly at this stage I and the Council did not want to stifle traditional Christmas activity such as Carole singing so an interpretation of 'in the presence of an audience and for the purposes of entertaining that audience's has been somewhat generous in favour of these events. As we issue licences for open areas this interpretation may be tightened having regard to any guidance or case law which may emerge. At present no TENS have been issued and therefore the full allocation of TENs is still available. *** has been made aware of the use of these notices and the procedure to follow.

Hopefully *** will get back to us shortly with applications for premises licences which we will process as quickly as possible.

Have a merry Christmas and a happy new year, incidentally any singing in ******* ****** tomorrow will probably be my section after their Christmas lunch.


********


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:20 AM

Clearly at this stage I and the Council did not want to stifle traditional Christmas activity such as Carole singing so an interpretation of 'in the presence of an audience and for the purposes of entertaining that audience's has been somewhat generous in favour of these events. As we issue licences for open areas this interpretation may be tightened having regard to any guidance or case law which may emerge. At present no TENS have been issued and therefore the full allocation of TENs is still available. *** has been made aware of the use of these notices and the procedure to follow.

This is fascinating. It is evidence that LAs at least do see that the interpretation of the words of the Act is a matter for local policy making. However - these officers seem to think that it is a matter only for paid employees and servants of the borough to decide and change these interpretations.

In the final analyis it will be a matter for the courts but LAs do have to place a workable interpretation on them first. It is the officer's role to advise on this. But I would suggest that in this case the current 'generous' (or cowardly) interpretation of 'in the presence of an audience and for the purposes of entertaining that audience's' is kept until some legal challenge is made to it.

I would suggest that any move by the officers alone to change a interpretation of these words that currently enable carols and other simlar music making events without temporary or permanent permissions is challenged. It is matter for the local Licensing Authority to decide this matters with reference to the local Statement of Licensing Policy.   

Officers really can't be permitted decide interpretations of the words of legislation based on their readiness or not to issue the required licenses and decide on a less generous interpretation of these same words when they feel they are ready..........

As they state - case law is one thing they must now wait for and any guidance issued now is obviosly far too late for they have made the local interpretation based on current guidance. Pressure from the LA on the Secretary of State to change the words in Schedule 1 is probably the best option.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:46 AM

Perhaps it is time to take stock?

Carols are currently OK wherever Penny Black lives. They would also appear to be OK unlicensed in Sheffield but licenses are required in South Norfolk. Have I missed any?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: PennyBlack
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 11:13 AM

With reference to Carol Singing (to keep with the thread topic) I believe the licensing officer made the correct call when he stated there would not be a requirement for a TEN licence which was neither "Brave" or "Cowardly" It could have just as easily passed across an application form.

I don't class officialdom as my enemy and try to work with them rather than being aggresivly hostile.

It's results that I'm interested in not the fun of "The Battle".

May I suggest that areas where Carol Singers has been told it requires a TEN licence (Not Prevented as implied) that the organiser ask for what reason?(whether classed as entertainment, profit making etc)and if being held in a place where such entertainment regularly takes place eg Buskers, Carol Singing, Morris dancing etc. whether the local council will be obtaining a licence to cover such events as encouraged by the DCMS

and to add to the confusion.

Jingle doorbells and get nicked
By Glenn Ebrey

"SCROOGE" police chiefs are urging residents who want a silent night to "arrest" young carol singers.

Greenwich police say residents who feel intimidated by warbling youngsters should perform a citizen's arrest on them, because they are breaking the law.

But church and youth leaders have slammed the police for their lack of Christmas spirit.

Police released a statement to News Shopper, saying anyone carol singing on a doorstep without a charity box or a permit is "begging".

The statement also urges residents to "detain such children" and then call the police.

The Reverend Elaine Cranmer from St Luke's Vicarage, Westmount Road, Eltham, says the police's position is wrong.

She said: "It seems a bit over the top to me. It sounds like using a sledgehammer to crack open a nut.

"I'm aware some people feel intimidated but carol singing has become a traditional part of Christmas."

Marie Hunt, who runs the Deptford 2nd North Brownie and Guide group, says she has stopped taking her children carol singing because of the "petty rules".

She said: "It has gone too far now. The police are like Scrooge, they are just spoiling Christmas for the children.

"When I was younger we used to go out all the time on our own but nowadays, the kids can't do it. They don't know where they stand.

"It is political correctness gone mad."

The Greenwich police statement carries a blunt message to residents "Don't be intimidated and don't give them a penny".

It says: "Please remember that anyone (but usually children) who rings your doorbell or knocks and then starts singing carols, but have no official charity collection box or permit, are simply begging.

"Begging by children under 16 is an offence under Section 4 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. Anyone can detain such children and then you can call the police."

The law also states the parents or guardian of the singing child will be prosecuted.

-------- Reference Link --------


----------


Now where's that "Is Busking Begging" thread :0)

PB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 12:20 PM

Here we come a Wassailing
Among the leaves so green
Here we come a wandering
So Fair to be seen

Love and joy come to you, And to your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year
And God send you a happy New Year


...

We are not daily beggars
That beg from door to door
But we are your neighbours' children
That you have seen before

Love and joy... etc.

Exerpts from an English Traditional Carol.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing. (England)
From: PennyBlack
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:07 PM

Tootler, as I'm sure you are aware Wassail, is a toast (and performed at various times of the year) the above song traditionally would have been often sung to toast in the new year.

Sort of a "Thank you for giving me some money" - "Cheers Mate" and of course not religious based when sung as a "carol".


Merry Christmas
Gelukkige Kersfeesen
Enquine le gena adersashewu
Eid-dok um-barak or Eidat Mubarak
Shnorhavor Surb Tsnund or Bari Kaghand
Luzihiro Lwa Krismas
Kwa Beno Banso Bwanana
Na Bino Banso Bonane
Nathibitate Alegara or Eguberri Alegara
Chestita Koleda or Vesela Koleda
Felicas Pasquas
Kung Ho Shęng Tan or Shęng Tan K'uai Lo or Sheng dan kuai le
Radostan Narodenje Kristovo
Veselé Vánoce
Glćdelig Jul
Vrolyk Derstfeest or Zalig Kerstfeest or Gezellige Kerstmis
Gajan Kristnaskon
Roomsaid Joulu Puhi
Hauska Joulua or Iloista Joulua
Vrolijke Kerstmis
Joyeux Noël
Fröhliche Weihnachten
Christouyenna
Shubh Diwali
Mele Kalikimaka
Chag Ha-Molad Sameach
Shubh Dipavali
Boldog Karácsonyi ünnepeket or Boldog Karácsonyt
Glediles Jol
Ria Hari Natal
Gaelic Nollaig Shona Dhuit
Buon Natále or Felice Natále
Yoi Kurisumasu O Oinori Itashimasu
Koo Ju Syung Tarn
Felicem Diem Nativitatis Christi
Priecigus Ziemasvetkus
Selamat Mari Raja Natal
Gledelig Jul or God Jul
Eiddat Mobark
Feliz Natal or Boas Festas
Sárbátori Fericite or Graciem Fericit
s Rozhdestvom Khristovym
Hristos se rodi
Vesele Vanoce
Radosten Narodzenje Kristovo
Feliz Navidad or Felices Pascuas
Changamfu Krismas or Nawatakia Heri za Krismas
God Jul
Maligyang Pasko
Nevincli Noel or Noeliniz
z Rozhestvom Khristovymor z Rizdvom Khristovim
Lę Thięn-Chúa gian-sinh
Nadolig Llawen
Frehliches Krismes


and a Happy New Year

PB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 16 November 11:53 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.