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Most Influential Album?

GUEST,The Deli Lama 16 Jan 06 - 09:28 PM
Once Famous 16 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Treefolker 16 Jan 06 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 15 Jan 06 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 15 Jan 06 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Tourindot 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 13 Jan 06 - 02:04 PM
Don Firth 12 Jan 06 - 10:51 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 12 Jan 06 - 10:26 PM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 12 Jan 06 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 12 Jan 06 - 08:05 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 06 - 08:04 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 06 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 12 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 06 - 06:11 PM
Once Famous 12 Jan 06 - 06:03 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 06 - 05:49 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 06 - 05:01 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 06 - 04:46 PM
Once Famous 12 Jan 06 - 03:35 PM
Don Firth 12 Jan 06 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 12 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 11 Jan 06 - 09:53 PM
Bill t' bodger 11 Jan 06 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 11 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 11 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 11 Jan 06 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 11 Jan 06 - 08:22 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 06 - 08:20 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 06 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 11 Jan 06 - 01:22 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 11 Jan 06 - 12:31 AM
Little Hawk 10 Jan 06 - 11:27 PM
pdq 10 Jan 06 - 10:48 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 06 - 09:05 PM
Don Firth 10 Jan 06 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 10 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 10 Jan 06 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 10 Jan 06 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 10 Jan 06 - 03:29 PM
Bill t' bodger 10 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 09 Jan 06 - 11:10 PM
Once Famous 09 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM
Bill t' bodger 09 Jan 06 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Dr Winston O Boogie. 09 Jan 06 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,The Deli Lama 08 Jan 06 - 12:37 PM
alanabit 08 Jan 06 - 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 09:28 PM

Well, well, well, Fartin' Gibbon strikes again with another sally of wit. You do like to play with names a lot, don't you?

Kind of "Lame" brained, actually. It's the sort of thing eighth graders do a lot.

Jeez, man, get a clue!

The Deli Lama
    OK. It's time to shut this down. It has been too combative for too long. If you want to discuss this subject further, start a new thread and have a civil discussion.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM

Deli Lama, you are really Dolly Lame.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Treefolker
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:14 PM

May I suggest the "KNob Lick Upper 10000" for their debut album of big hits?


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 03:44 PM

Whoo-wee. Here we go again. Buncha accusations flyin' on both sides-no penalty no foul (watchin' the Steelers/Indy game-more exciting). FWIW I believe Martin guitars too. Already made my finale on this one. Red Album-KT-most influencial. Take it to the bank. Don't care about the Brittanica or the book(s) right now. KT wins in OT. Super Bowl of folk on 2/6. Tom Dooley wins by 21 points. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:46 PM

What the hell are you raving about, Martin Gibson? You won't read a book because you figure only about a dozen others have read it, therefore it isn't worth reading? Well, I don't think the Encyclopedia Britannica has sold all that many copies compared to those such as you who read a lot of porn, but it contains a lot more valuable information. Actually, I'm re-reading "Romancing the Folk" now and it's absolutely fascinating. Lot's of stuff that anyone with a serious interest in American folk music really ought to know.

Oh, but learning something would make you an elitist, a snob, and a purist, not to mention a dope-smoking hippy and probably a liberal as well. You have to be careful about taking a chance on learning something you don't already know. You never can tell how new information (new to you) might corrupt you. For God's sake, don't take a chance!

Okay, so you don't think the book sold very many copies (but you don't KNOW that) and you're convinced that the Kingston Trio really did invent folk music in the basement of their frat house because of all the albums they sold. You're really into numbers, aren't you?

So are lemmings.

The Deli Lama


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Tourindot
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 PM

What is it you're saying monseur? Merde alors c'est le trois que?


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:04 PM

Don,

I will look for that book too!! I have never heard of it before.

Mr. or Ms A. Mouse,
It is interesting. We'll agree to disagree. If I spounded feistier than I ahoulkd've, I am sorry. It's been an excruciatingly frustrating couple of days dealing with Public Aid's transport permissions bureaurocracy. Bottom line: Carol did not get to a badly needed treatment apointment this morning. I was blowing off real anger---and steam. A needed venting from ol' Art.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:51 PM

Okay, Anonny, but do get a copy of Romancing The Folk by Benjamin Filene and give it a read. I think you'll find it both interesting and informative.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:26 PM

Well fellas (or gals) this is gettin' to be like bashin the ol' head against a brick wall-it feels so good when ya stop. No doubt some of you know from yer books and histories whatcha know. Pointless to keep this little argument/debate going. I'm not changing yer minds-and you're not changing mine. Plenty of salient points made from all sides; I made mine-you made yours. I know what I know, and observed and lived through it here stateside. That first Trio album deserves most influencial--THEY may have not been the be-all, end-all of folk music commercial or otherwise--but that album started a phenomenon, and who came before whom or whatever is all well and good, but they didn't have THE ALBUM. Or the albums that followed.

So, I'm takin' my leave of this now as it's been beat into the dirt plenty enough and you regulars and "GUESTS" can write what ya want. But I did enjoy all the pots that got stirred, learned a few things, got some nice references, and did some reading. Maybe I'll go off and wail hang down your head, Tom Dooley on my front porch, or hoist one to Bob, Nick and Dave. Catch you on another thread I'm sure. Now-don't go taking this as some kind of surrender, 'cause it isn't. Just that enuf's enuf-and we probably hit that 150 posts or so ago. LOL!!!!


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:07 PM

Amen to that, Art.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:05 PM

Sales can, more often than not = the herd instincts of the gullible poorly enlightened. After first exposure, some swept the scum of the present off the top of the pond and dove into the depths of history to find the artifacts of musical lore lurking there.

Art


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:04 PM

The Martin website claims the Kingston Trio "single handedly" set off the folk music boom. Oh, c'mon!! Don't tell me you seriously believe that!

Like a few people have said, read a book. Educate yourseves!


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:55 PM

Leapin' lizards, there, Anonny! You sound even more rabid than Martin Gibson.

You're sure you're NOT Martin Gibson?

Why does it matter so much to you two guys? Perhaps the Deli Lama is right. Is this a matter of having your religious beliefs attacked? Will questioning the importance of the Kingston Trio in the Grand Scheme of the Universe set off Armageddon?

Film at eleven.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM

Give it up "GUEST." We're talking about the folk era...and lots of people DID try (and fail) to sing like Frank Sinatra-Jack Jones, Vic Damone, heck-Harry Connick. How many years did Teresa Brewer last? Name three hits or million plus selling albums she EVER had. 4 out of 8 albums on Billboard? Dont think so. Rescue Martin guitars? Nope? Fill coffee houses, colleges, venues with copycats? Nope. Whaddya got against the KT? Or is it who's posting on their behalf? Me? MG? Go visit the Martin museum and see whose pix are there. It ain't Peter Paul and Mary, or Dylan, or Bob Gibson or Woody-and I love Woody. Sales IS influence--esp long term.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:11 PM

Question, Martin. If sales=influence, why wasn't everyone trying to sing like Teresa Brewer and Frank Sinatra?


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:03 PM

Sales=influence, Guest

Most sales ratios out to most people heard to most people influenced.

Numbers speak volumes, guest.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:49 PM

And if you scan the "reality check" lists I posted above, you might notice that of the best selling albums of 1958,
Teresa Brewer had a whopping 6,
Frank Sinatra had 5,
Ella Fitzgerald had 4 (one with Billie Holliday).
Bing Crosby also had 4, and
The Mills Brothers also had 4.
The Ames Brothers, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Connie Francis, and Dalida (who or what was Dalida?) all had 2.
And once again, take a look at the list of the 5 top selling albums of 1958.
1.South Pacific – Soundtrack
2.The Music Man - Original Cast
3.Gigi - Soundtrack
4.Sing Along With Mitch - Mitch Miller
5.Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto No. 1 - Van Cliburn
The Kingston Trio was right up there with all the rest of the single sellers, including Alvin and the Chipmunks.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:01 PM

Martin Gibson, you (and a few others) are confusing "most influential" with "most sales." Those are two entirely different animals.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:46 PM

"Folk-lite"

Very apt. I like that!


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 03:35 PM

I want to remind posters above, especially the Guest above with his result theory, that this thread is about the Most Influential album. as far as a folk movement goes, as Guest spoke of prior to the KT first album, yes there was one, but it was limited to mostly large urban areas.

When the folk movement began or was relevant does not equal what album was the most influential. It is just as usual, purists not giving credit to where credit is due for the whole genre of folk music being established. Again, The Kingston Trio won a grammy for best country/western song with Ttom Dooley, because there wasn't much if any of a folk music category, at least as far as recorded music was concerned as a whole.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:38 PM

Jeez, Art, I wish it were possible for us to get together, drink a few beers, and swap some stories.

I met Bob Gibson in 1958. I had a friend named Patti McLaughlin who had graduated from the U. of Washington in the early Fifties, then went for an advanced degree at Northwestern. While she was here in Seattle, she was a guitar student of mine. She hung out at the Gate of Horn a lot, met Bob Gibson, swapped songs with him, and even sent me a tape of her singing a bunch of songs she'd learned from him.

I had learned Mattie Groves from a John Jacob Niles recording back in about 1953 (didn't sing it quite the way Niles did, though!) and Patti learned it from me. When I heard Gibson's recording of it, I thought, "AHA! I know where that came from!" Maybe that's not the way it really happened, but all things considered, it looked fairly likely.

Anyway, Patti returned to Seattle, and in 1958, she, Walt Robertson, a couple of other people, and I made preliminary arrangements for a concert and a couple of other gigs for Gibson here in Seattle. Patti contacted Gibson and he was game. Among other things, he had a brother named Jim who lived here in Seattle. Jim, a paramedic, and I met often at the Blue Moon tavern where we consumed many a schooner. I didn't even occur to me that he was Bob Gibson's brother, even though he'd mentioned that he had a brother living back east who was into folk music. I had never made the connection, even though the last names were the same and they looked a lot alike. Rather dim of me!

Gibson brought Dick Rosmini with him, and his concert in the Eagleson Hall auditorium was jam-packed. They were here for two weeks, staying at Walt Robertson's houseboat down on Lake Union. Gibson, Rosmini, Walt, Patti, and I, along with several other people, got together several times while they were here for song-swapping and general babble-festing. I learned a bunch of guitar licks from Dick Rosmini (man, that sucker could play!!).

Then in 1959, Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I ran into Gibson in the Bay Area. We were sitting in the "No Name Tavern" in Sausalito when in he walked, spotted us, and came over (actually, he knew Patti was in the area, looked her up, and she told him where he could probably find us). He was in the area to write arrangements for the Smothers Brothers (who were just starting out at the Purple Onion) and help them get their act together. He had just recently been to the Newport Folk Festival, and he said that an outrageously fantastic girl singer had been there and that we'd be hearing a lot about her very soon. Guess who that turned out to be!!

Anyway, Bob Gibson was a FORCE. And there were a number of FORCES like that around the country.

There's no doubt that the Kingston Trio was a force also, but I do have to agree that their success was more a result than a cause of the folk revival in the U. S. They were more a pop-music phenomenon than a folk music influence, because due to their slicked-up arrangements, frat-boy irreverence, apparent eagerness to use a song as a vehicle for a joke rather than to present it seriously, and their look-alike shirts, most folk singers (vast hordes of them by the late Fifties) tended to regard them as "folk-lite." We could argue this 'til hell freezes over and still reach no conclusion that would satisfy everyone's preferences and prejudices.

Anyone who knows me or has heard me sing very much could hardly characterize me as a "purist," but if my regarding the KT as "folk-lite" makes me a "purist" and a "snob," then fine and dandy. So sue me!

I reiterated my earlier recommendation that those who didn't get into folk music until the Kingston Trio came along should read a bit and find out what went before and where it really all came from. Then, they might not be quite so adamant. If you were to read only one of the books I recommended (and others have seconded my recommendations), I would suggest Romancing The Folk : Public Memory and American Roots by Benjamin Filene. Among other things, lots of pictures.

In any case, why don't we all just stop quibbling and go out and make some music, okay?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM

I was at the Gate Of Horn for what was happening in the late 1950s, and it was mesmerizing. In a nutshell, back then, Bob Gibson was the sole reason for the club's success. After opening it's doors, the place showed no signs at all of being the Mecca of folkiedom it would become. Bob was a young and fresh guy with a Vega long-neck 5-string banjo. Didn't do any songs with a guitar until Matty Groves. And his arrangement was used, later, by Joan Baez. Bob's arrangements were used by Chad Mitchell's group, The Limelighters and at least 50 other stripedy shirt trios and quartets. A barefoot Joan Baez opened for Gibson at the gate---and that voice simply amazed us. Then Bob Gibson brought her up on stage to sing a couple of songs with him at the Newport Folk Festival. She took off from there...

The "Gate Of Horn", I've been told, was the gate travelers had to pass through on the way to having their dreams come true!

Art


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 PM

Hey Deli--wish I could find it again...I didn't read the page all the way you linked since as soon as I saw it I knew it wasn't the one I got the quote from since mine didn't have a colored picture or print like that. All I remember is that there was some green "headers" for topics and smaller black print. My guess is that its just out there and whoever wrote up that fan page used it too. I did try re Googling but couldn't find it again-but it obviously is the same quote. Besides, the other link I DID post mentioned 4 out of 10. Youre just a better searcher than me! Regardless I believe fan page or not, or wherever, it is true about the 4 albums at once in Billboards top 10 or 8 or whatever (I always thought they did those things in 10's or 100's). My point stays the same anyway-10 top albums (or 8) is a small pond and 4 albums in it is a big FROG. Again-dont see what diff it makes where it came from exactly because Billboard could verify it (if I could figger a way to do that without buying their $%#^ books they sell by the year or something).

As to the Gate of Horn and the 50's coffee houses I wasn't around-but assuming folk music was cresting the KT hit the top of the wave at the right time and like any wave, it broke and hit the shore and spilled into a million households, guitar shops, Martin guitars which you couldn't find a NEW D28 in most shops in the early 60's 'cause they were backordered out the whazoo because of GUESS WHO...and folks that might've been playing coffee houses were now able to play college auds and big concert venues. Plus like someone said, before 57-58 who had much of any folk groups on record labels? A few...then there was an innundation--like that Fernwood Trio (and there was a Princeton Trio too--real cooool guys) and Bros 4, Limeliters, Chad Mitchell, Journeymen, PP and M, Highwaymen, New Christy Minstrels -then Dylan and Baez, Paxton, Anderson, and it all started with that RED KT album. BTW 57-2007-next year'll be 50 years! Man were all gettin' OLD eh Deli (or are you a youn'un?).

I fess up-I was a FAN...I loved those guys and I aped 'em, and did their stuff, and picked up a guitar and banjo because of them and thats lasted a lifetime so far, won me a lotta friends (probably drove some others nuts), got me backstage to more than a few concerts of other acts (not just folk either) because of music connections, and made a geeky kinda guy survive high school and church youth groups and camp and thought of as "cool" 'cause I had some chops, and could play with the best of them back when (can't these days)-the music seemed simpler then and I was a natural harmonizer so thats why I keep posting on this thread even though I know there were lotsa folks who hated the music, KT, or whatever. Me? They helped me bloom where I was planted and I got to talk to Bob Shane more than a coupla times in my life and I told him that--and he was real gracious about it-and said lots of people tell similar stories. But regardless of all this personal crap I DO believe that first album of theirs deserves "most influencial folk album."


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM

I'm not sure when the Gate of Horn opened, but it was going in the mid-50s. The radio program "The Midnight Special" started in 1953. The Old Town School of Folk Music started in 1957. These were symptoms of the interest in folk music that had been developing slowly over a number of decades, but in the 50s, the wave was beginning to crest. There were folksingers singing in front of audiences in coffeehouses and clubs all over the country in the 50s.

The fact that the Kingston Trio's first album sold well was a RESULT, not the cause, of the folk music revival in the United States.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:53 PM

Anonny, I pulled up google, went to "Advanced Search," and pasted "One month after their fourth album was released the Kingston Trio was claiming 4 out of the 8 firsts on the national album sales charts" into the "exact phrase" box (after highlighting it and copying it from your post—a little trick I figured out), and that's where it took me. The sentence you quote is fairly well along in the article, but it's there. Since I had it in my buffer, I pasted it to the "Edit > Find" box and there it was.

So it IS there. Where did YOU find it?

The Deli Lama

(Duty calls. Back tomorrow)


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Bill t' bodger
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:33 PM

I think you are right about KTs influence in te UK I was not born until 64 so do not know for sure, I was influenced by my Dads music and he had been sateside a lot between 57 and 61 and listened to a lot of American music as he preferred ballads, not the more frivolous songs in the rock n roll and pop at that time. I know he had access to Pete Seeger and other singers who were blacklisted in the States because he travelled all over the atlantic coasts.

I have never said that the Kingston Trio were not important, just that others influenced them and a lot of singers since, Bruce Springsteen cites Woody Guthrie as an influence, as do a lot of other Rock/folk singer/songwriters, as he was around a long time before KT maybe a few of you should widen your views


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM

Deli-that link you put up was a new one on me-not where the 4 of top 8 albums quote came from-but yer right-its obviously a fan oriented thing. Different link than the one I posted a bit ago for the guy who wants "proof"--I spose you could check RIAA stats too but I aint quite that compulsive. Point was all those songs listed for '58 above and MY point was 4 albums at once in the Billboard top 10 at once. To me thats influence more than sales and it all started with that first red album and swept the country and started the folk music era here which the progenitors didn't do. As for the UK I have no idea who was big there or if they had a folk boom like in the U.S. Lonnie Donnegan? Buskers? Dunno.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM

I found it also (googled with "Advanced Search").

Basically good article in praise of the Kingston Trio. Contains the usual puff-job that PR types write. Naturally. Liner notes. HERE.

I would need some verification of anything I read off of some recording artist's liner notes.

Besides, that just reiterates what's already been said. Nobody has denied that they had a hit album. Maybe a couple of hit albums. Nor has anybody denied that they did wield a fair amount of influence. But the question is, just how influential were they in relation to the folk revival? The MOST INFLUENTIAL album?

For example, in the UK, I tend to think that their influence was minimal. Perhaps some of our British friends could chime in on this.

The Deli Lama


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:27 PM

Quote GUEST: "Never mind. I found it. It's on the Kingston Trio's website.(Yawn)"

Wasnt at any KT website-so if you found it there you know its true. "YAWN"-then why didja ask? The link I pasted in above isn't a KT website-what website YOU talkin' about?


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:22 PM

Sorry-lost the link amid others late last nite-however I was Googling Billboard top selling albums in 58 & 59-may have come from an RIAA link also-however, basically same info in this quote from this link, but list 4 in the top 10...same time frame:
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-kingston-trio

Its a well known fact however-certainly not something one would make up. Read all about it pond/frog lovers. LOL


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:20 PM

Never mind. I found it. It's on the Kingston Trio's website.

(Yawn)


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:53 PM

And the source of that quote is.......?

Not just "an article," please. Specific would be nice.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 01:22 AM

Ponds and frogs and other metaphors-anyone wanna croak? Here's another pond/frog stat for ya: "One month after their fourth album was released the Kingston Trio was claiming 4 out of the 8 firsts on the national album sales charts..."

Quote from an article from the folk scare era...now thats some kinda influence wouldn't ya say? Any other folkies have a stat like that? 4 out of the top 8's a pretty small pond with some BIG frogs. Ribbit.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:31 AM

It is always lonely being right (correct) and, also, one of the small minority surrounded by the in-your-face majority. In the end, it's possibly prudent, and in your interest, to just smile and shake your head, sadly, as you head on down the road.

If a billion people adhere to a dumb idea, and ten people get it right, the big lie will prevail---but it's still a dumb idea!!

That's not very democratic, but, to me, it's THE TRUTH of the matter...

Art


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:27 PM

LOL! Lovely. This may yet become the most influential thread in the upper half of the forum. Way to go.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 10:48 PM

In GUEST's posts above, there are only two groups I do not recognise, Dalida and

                                          The Southlanders


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM

More reality check.

Five top albums of 1958
1.South Pacific – Soundtrack
2.The Music Man - Original Cast
3.Gigi - Soundtrack
4.Sing Along With Mitch - Mitch Miller
5.Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto No. 1 - Van Cliburn

"Tom Dooley" (single) made the top of the charts for one week – the week of November 17th.

Very big pool. Very small frogs.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 09:05 PM

Reality Check

Albums released in 1958

Around The World - Bing Crosby
As Long As There's Music - Eddie Fisher
Atomic Basie - Count Basie
The Chirping Crickets - The Crickets
Come Fly With Me - Frank Sinatra
Destination Moon - The Ames Brothers
Dream - The Mills Brothers
Ella and Billie at Newport - Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday
Ella Swings Lightly - Ella Fitzgerald
For Teenagers In Love - Teresa Brewer
Foreign Affair - Frankie Laine and Michel LeGrand
The Frank Sinatra Story - Frank Sinatra
Gogi Grant - Welcome To My Heart - Gogi Grant
Gondolier - Dalida
Greatest Hits - Frankie Laine
A Guy In Love - Guy Mitchell
Johnny Horton Sings Free And Easy - Johnny Horton
Kate Smith Sings Folk Songs - Kate Smith
King Creole - Elvis Presley
The Kingston Trio - The Kingston Trio
Les Gitans - Dalida
Milestones - Miles Davis
The Mills Brothers In Hi-Fi - The Mills Brothers
The Mills Brothers Sing - The Mills Brothers
Miss Music - Teresa Brewer
Mmmm, The Mills Brothers - The Mills Brothers
Music! Music! Music! - Teresa Brewer
My Happiness - Connie Francis
Oklahoma - Original Soundtrack
Only The Lonely - Frank Sinatra
Paris Holiday - Bing Crosby
Ricky Nelson - Ricky Nelson
Rockin' With Kay Starr - Kay Starr
Sings the Irving Berlin Songbook - Ella Fitzgerald
Smoochin' Time - The Ames Brothers
Songs For Swinging Lovers - Frank Sinatra
Songs I Wish I Had Sung - Bing Crosby
South Pacific - Original Soundtrack
Star Dust - Pat Boone
Surprise Package - The Crew Cuts
Swingin' Down Broadway - Jo Stafford
Teresa - Teresa Brewer
Teresa Brewer At Christmas Time - Teresa Brewer
That Travelin' Two-Beat - Bing Crosby
Them There Eyes - Kay Starr
This Is Sinatra Volume 2 - Frank Sinatra
'Til Morning - Johnnie Ray
Time For Teresa - Teresa Brewer
Torchin' - Frankie Laine
Who's Sorry Now? - Connie Francis
Yes Indeed! - Pat Boone


Top hits on record in 1958

"All American Boy" - Bill Parsons
"All I Have To Do Is Dream/Claudette" - The Everly Brothers
"Alone (Why Must I Be Alone)" - The Southlanders
"Because You're Mine" - Mario Lanza
"Bird Dog" - Everly Brothers
"Blast Off" - The Tyrones
"Blue Boy" - Jim Reeves
"Breathless" - Jerry Lee Lewis
"Broke Down Baby" - The Tyrones
"Catch A Falling Star" - Perry Como
"A Certain Smile" - Johnny Mathis
"Chantilly Lace" - Big Bopper
"Chipmunk Song" - The Chipmunks with David Seville
"Come Dance With Me" - Frank Sinatra
"Come On Let's Go" - Ritchie Valens
"Come Prima (Tu me donnes)" - Dalida
"Dans le bleu du ciel bleu" - Dalida
"The Day The Rains Came" - Jane Morgan
"El Diablo" - Frankie Laine
"Fever" - Peggy Lee
"Gondolier" - Dalida
"Great Balls Of Fire" - Jerry Lee Lewis
"Guitare et tambourin" - Dalida
"Hava Naguila" - Dalida
"I am a Mole and I Live in a Hole" - The Southlanders
"I Have To Cry" - Frankie Laine
"I Wonder Why" - Dion & the Belmonts
"I'm Not Just Anybody's Baby" - Mindy Carson
"I'm Shook" - The Tyrones
"It's All In The Game" - Tommy Edwards
"Jailhouse Rock" - Elvis Presley
"Johnny B.Goode" - Chuck Berry
"Journey's End" - Frankie Laine
"Heartbeat" - Buddy Holly
"Johnny B. Goode" - Chuck Berry
"Kisses Sweeter Than Wine" - Jimmie Rodgers
"Le jour où la pluie viendra" - Dalida
"Left Right Out Of Your Heart" - Patti Page
"Les Gitans" - Dalida
"Maybe Baby" - Buddy Holly
"Mexican Hat Rock" - Dave Appell/the Applejacks
"Milord" - Edith Piaf
"Move It" - Cliff Richard
"The Purple People Eater" - Sheb Wooley
"One Summer Night" - Danleers
"Partners" - Jim Reeves
"Poor Little Fool" - Ricky Nelson
"Rave On" - Buddy Holly
"Rawhide" - Frankie Laine
"Return To Me (Rittorna A Me)" - Dean Martin
"Rock And Roll Is Here To Stay" - Danny & the Juniors
"Rocka-Conga" - Dave Appell/the Applejacks
"Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" - Brenda Lee
"Rockin' Robin" - Bobby Day
"Scarlet Ribbons" - The Kingston Trio
"Short Shorts" - Royal Teens
"Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" - The Platters
"Stupid Cupid" - Connie Francis
"Summertime Blues" - Eddie Cochran
"Sweet Little Sixteen" - Chuck Berry
"Teacher's Pet" - Doris Day
"Tequila" - The Champs
"Tom Dooley" - The Kingston Trio
"Twilight Time" - The Platters
"Well All Right" - Buddy Holly
"Who's Sorry Now?" - Connie Francis

BIG pond -- small frogs.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:59 PM

Hmm. Still at it, eh?

Deli Lama, I admire your tenacity, but when it comes to enlightening the masses, I tend to think you might be fighting an uphill battle, as in "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!!" Around here, I've pretty much learned to say what I have to say and bug out. Saves a lot of time and aggravation. But then, you missionaries from Shangri-La are dedicated to enlightening the masses and have a lot more patience than I do.

Art, if you're still checking in on this, I'm curious; when did the Old Town School of Folk Music first get started in Chicago? I tried to find some history on it on the internet, and so far, other than a few things about the school itself, I can't find out much about it. Even back in the Fifties, I had the impression that it had been around for awhile. Since maybe before Stonehenge was built?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM

Art Thieme says it. He has a good handle on this because he was there, he's been doing folk music all his life, and knows what he's talking about.

Sorry to say it, Anonny Mouse, but you seem to have fallen into the same short-sighted, misleading prejudice that has Martin Gibson trapped in his own delusional universe. You can both quote statistics till hell freezes over, but if it hadn't been for all that preceded the Kingston Trio's first album, you and Martin wouldn't have any statistics to quote, because there would have been no such album.

Someone said earlier that a lot of the gung-ho "the Kingston Trio invented folk music" mythology is because the believers in this myth imprinted on the KT the same way baby ducks fresh out of the shell imprint on the first thing they see, such as the old, spavined barnyard dog, and follow the old dog around, convinced that it's its mother.

I've run into this before and have argued all these arguments before. The advocates of canonizing the Kingston Trio as the patron saints of ALL folk singers act like their religion is being called into question whenever someone doesn't share their view of history. To make blunt statements like that is simplistic and tends to cut off any investigation of what REALLY happened. Very political, in fact. "Let's not bother to investigate this because we might find out that we're wrong."

In his post of 11 Dec 05 - 02:49 PM, Don Firth recommends a couple of very good books that can give you a good, detailed rundown on what the world was really like as far as folk music was concerned. "When We Were Good: The Folk Revival" by Robert Cantwell and "Romancing the Folk: Public Memory and American Roots" by Benjamin Filene. Both of these are good. I would also recommend reading "Follow the Music" by Jac Holzman (head of Elektra Records) and Gavan Daws, and "Postively 4th Street" by David Hajdu.

If you're REALLY interesting in where the folk revival came from rather than simply wanting to maintaining a misconception, it would be to your advantage to do some reading.

The Deli Lama


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 04:27 PM

Martin,

As Lenny Bruce once said when trying to illustrate the value of having courses in the public schools on Sex Education. (Many were saying, then, it was just a road to promiscuity.) --- "Giving students a warning against syphilis is not a direct order for them to go out and contract it!"

Some of us who heard the various trios, including the one you seem to be fixated upon, knew that Bob Gibson (who we heard first doing the story songs from history and the roots songs of the Ohio River.) Songs like "Lily Of The West", "John Riley"--and all the broken token songs. "Lost Jimmy Whalen", "Red Iron Ore", "Mattie Groves"---even his updated rendering of "Sweet Betsy From Pike", "Goin' Down To Brownsville--Take That Right Hand Road", "No More Cane On The Brazos"---so many others that were done very much closer to the roots than "3 Jolly Coachmen" and/or "Banua", or their corporate Playboy's Penthouse insipid re-write of "It Takes A Worried Man".

It's just a matter of what you liked best. And that's about it. You STOPPED back there---and didn't dig any deeper into the real thing. That's how I see it...

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 04:03 PM

Deli-you can compose your well-worded treatises until the cows come home. I've already ceded you the point that the KT didn't drop from Mt. Olympus, or transport from the Enterprise.

But it's all moot. The KT DID indeed start, and nurture the so-called great folk scare in the U.S. Period. No one argues that there were progenitors--but THEY made it hip, popular, sold a bazillion records, did college concerts, and accounted singularily for Martin's rebirth, and Vega Banjo's survival until they sold out. Talk to any true Martin expert and they will tell you the same.

As much as you HATE it, MG is correct on this one. Your rhetoric as well reasoned as it is doesn't change the facts Jack. Until the Beatles, they were the most popular sellers, singers, act in show-biz, like it or not. Talk to a Capitol exec. They WERE the cash cow, and brought "folk music" into millions of homes that never heard of Burl, or Woody, or any Lomax. Our old console piece o' furniture didn't have any "Leadbelly" played on it ever-but the KT? You bet pal. And everyone had their clones on their labels. Even DYLAN admits to their influence on him. C'mon--get out yer KT fan club autographed pic, and yer D28 and join the sing along. They WERE the Beatles of the folk era. You talk about US trying to prove a point--so are you and you just won't admit to it. Do you REMEMBER that eon? Were you there? I was....and the KT absolutely RULED it---true folk or not. Arguing that there were others out there who preceded the KT is no point at all. There were others out there before the Beatles too but they werent the Beatles. Who was there before Bill Haley and the Comets? But who is credited with ushering in Rock and Roll? The KT was it. Everyone else who came after owed THEM as being progenitors.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 03:29 PM

O Gibbous One, I'm afraid your analogy of the Interstate highway doesn't work. Where did all those cars on your Interstate come from in the first place? They didn't just suddenly pop into existence, already on the Interstate, from out of nowhere.

On-ramps, my boy, on-ramps. All those people that YOU never heard of, that you're discounting as not having any influence. Just because they were not YOUR particular influence doesn't mean that they were not a big influence on a lot of other people. Including, I might point out, the Kingston Trio.

Ask yourself, who influenced the Kingston Trio? Why did they choose to do folk music? Obviously, THEY had been influenced themselves by the people that you're trying to claim had little or no influence.

A breeze, a current, a wind, all going in the same way, each one not enough to do it all by itself, but the accumulated effect gradually created the wave I've been talking about. That wave, building up over a period of time, that the Kingston Trio surfed to fame on is a better description of what really happened.

There can be a first "best seller" album, but that is not necessarily what had the strongest influence on the trend as a whole. I think there was no "most influential album." The influence, a cumulative effect, was already there by the time the Kingston Trio's first album came along. Their album created a blip, but in the long run, not much more than that. The folk revival was already under weigh. What they created was "The Great Folk Scare," which was not the same thing.

And Bill, you're right about Pete Seeger. Even though the Weavers had been blackballed and remained essentially inactive until the "Weavers at Carnegie Hall" album, Pete Seeger continued to do concerts at colleges all over the country, sponsored, not by the colleges themselves, but by various student groups (I know, because I know people who were involved in this). Sometimes he didn't get paid very much, but he was out and around doing concerts anyway, "below the radar." During the early and mid '50s, a lot of college students got turned on to folk music in small auditoriums in student organization houses, church basements, a LOT of Quaker meeting houses, and various other venues in and around colleges. This is attested to by enough increasing demand—in the mid '50's—for long-necked banjos like the one Seeger MADE for himself, for Vega to begin making a "Seeger Model" banjo. Bob Gibson, who was performing at the Gate of Horn in Chicago, got his "Seeger Model" (and I bought mine on his recommendation) before the Kingston Trio even formed. By the time Dave Guard bought his "Seeger Model" banjo, there were quite a few of them out and around.

Pete Seeger justly earned his title of "Pied Piper of Folk Music." BUT, although he wielded a powerful influence as an individual, it would be foolish to say that he was THE most influential person in the folk revival. That would be to ignore his father, Charles, and Alan Lomax, who go Pete interested in folk music in the first place, when he went to work for Lomax in the Library of Congress Archive of American Folk Music. And then there were all those who went before them: Bishop Percy, Sir Walter Scott, F. J. Child, Cecil Sharp, all those who collected and compiled this material, without whom city kids like the Kingston Trio wouldn't have much folk music to sing.

I suppose that mentioning these people makes me some kind of "purist."

Sorry about that! (But not very.)

The Deli Lama


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Bill t' bodger
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM

I did post earlier a couple of times with my honest conribution to the thread which I have been following for a while.
I am a fan of Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger, let us not forget Pete was unable t release records for a long time because of his politics and standing up for the underdog. it was during this period that The Kingston Trio became popular with the politicians and rascists in power cutting him off from the people who enjoyed his music. I AM A MUSIC LOVER I am not just a stupid kid who likes trading insults.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 11:10 PM

But Marvin, I'm not quibbling about that. The question I asked, and it relates to the matter of REAL influence, was how many of these clone trios lasted beyond a year or two? How many of those newly purchased guitars and banjos kept being played, compared to the number that wound up in closets or in garage sales?

Riddle me that, Oh, Grate One.

The Deli Lama


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM

You see, Deli Lama, you yourself said it.

"There were about 17,673,821 trios exactly like that back about then."

But The Kingston Trio were the first to influence that many. No one else came close to what they accomplished for folk music even if that was an exagerated number. Plain and simple, they turned on people to guitars, banjos, and folk music. Where people went from there is like exits off of an Interstate Highway.

Bill t'bodger, you sound like kind of a moron who likes to make up his own rules. Go ahead and start your thread. You will win. Next time come up with something to say in a thread before waiting 274 posts and a month to say what you think this thread isn't.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: Bill t' bodger
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:29 PM

I thought this thread was about music and influences in music not bloody   american politics and posing, I give up now as I feel let down by a few idiots in a personal power play you sad W@#~**!rs!
I looked forward to hearing about peoples influences and inspiration from the past history of music and putting in my own influences and even who influenced some of them .............whts the point

I am thinking of starting a thread just for you few called "I'm a bigger C@#t than you"


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,Dr Winston O Boogie.
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:32 AM

Don't need no sword to cut through flowers.


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: GUEST,The Deli Lama
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 12:37 PM

But my question remains unanswered. Are these the rules? Or are they the exceptins?

The Deli Lama


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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album?
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:16 AM

Sh - or I might have to visit your town LH!


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