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BS: Muslim Violence

GUEST,martin gibson 29 Oct 05 - 08:14 AM
stevenrailing 29 Oct 05 - 08:18 AM
dianavan 29 Oct 05 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 29 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM
Amos 29 Oct 05 - 12:45 PM
freda underhill 29 Oct 05 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,leeneia 29 Oct 05 - 02:59 PM
CarolC 29 Oct 05 - 03:11 PM
Peace 29 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Frank 29 Oct 05 - 06:52 PM
John O'L 29 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 30 Oct 05 - 06:39 PM
dianavan 30 Oct 05 - 07:41 PM
Don Firth 30 Oct 05 - 07:51 PM
Don Firth 30 Oct 05 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Zbar 30 Oct 05 - 08:14 PM
dianavan 30 Oct 05 - 09:40 PM
GUEST,TIA 30 Oct 05 - 09:51 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 30 Oct 05 - 11:36 PM
Peace 31 Oct 05 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,TIA 31 Oct 05 - 09:02 AM
Little Hawk 31 Oct 05 - 01:59 PM
Peace 31 Oct 05 - 02:02 PM
Amos 31 Oct 05 - 02:02 PM
Little Hawk 31 Oct 05 - 02:22 PM
Lonesome EJ 31 Oct 05 - 02:49 PM
Amos 31 Oct 05 - 02:51 PM
CarolC 31 Oct 05 - 03:41 PM
Wesley S 31 Oct 05 - 04:30 PM
Little Hawk 31 Oct 05 - 04:31 PM
Lonesome EJ 31 Oct 05 - 06:06 PM
Lonesome EJ 31 Oct 05 - 06:10 PM
Peace 31 Oct 05 - 06:11 PM
Little Hawk 31 Oct 05 - 06:21 PM
Lonesome EJ 31 Oct 05 - 06:56 PM
CarolC 31 Oct 05 - 07:03 PM
CarolC 31 Oct 05 - 07:19 PM
Lonesome EJ 31 Oct 05 - 07:50 PM
Don Firth 31 Oct 05 - 08:08 PM
Lonesome EJ 31 Oct 05 - 08:46 PM
Amos 31 Oct 05 - 08:52 PM
Amos 31 Oct 05 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 31 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM
Don Firth 31 Oct 05 - 09:23 PM
bobad 31 Oct 05 - 09:24 PM
bobad 31 Oct 05 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 31 Oct 05 - 10:53 PM
CarolC 31 Oct 05 - 11:06 PM
CarolC 31 Oct 05 - 11:24 PM
Little Hawk 01 Nov 05 - 01:25 AM
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Subject: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,martin gibson
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 08:14 AM

Girls heads cut off. Islam is such a religion of peace.


Three Indonesian girls beheaded
By Tim Johnston
BBC News, Jakarta

Three girls have been beheaded and another badly injured as they walked to a Christian school in Indonesia.
They were walking through a cocoa plantation near the city of Poso in central Sulawesi province when they were attacked.
This is an area that has a long history of religious violence between Muslims and Christians.
A government-brokered truce has only partially succeeded in reducing the number of incidents in recent years.
Police say the heads were found some distance from the bodies.
It is unclear what was behind the attack, but the girls attended a private Christian school and one of the heads was left outside a church leading to speculation that it might have had a religious motive.

Islamic state
Central Sulawesi and Poso in particular was the scene of bitter fighting between Muslims and Christians in 2001 and 2002.
        
Muslim gang members carry makeshift rifles as Christian homes burn in sectarian violence-wracked Poso, December 2001

Flashpoints: Sulawesi

More than 1,000 people were killed before a government-brokered truce.
Although the violence has been subdued, it has never gone away completely.
A bomb in May in the nearby town of Tentena, which is predominantly Christian, killed 22 people and injured over 30.
The fighting four years ago drew Islamic militants from all over Indonesia and many have never gone home.
Analysts say the militants have targeted central Sulawesi and believe that it could be turned into the foundation stone of an Islamic state.
The analysts have warned that the violence could resurface at any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: stevenrailing
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 08:18 AM

Christianity committed the same type of crimes. difference is Christianity has matured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 12:24 PM

Violance is violence, anyway you spell it and regardless of who is doing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM

The quote from the article says repeatedly that the violence is happening between the Christians and the Muslims in that area. But then it only reports the violence done by Muslims against Christians. So wich is it... violence against Christians, by Muslims, or violence between Christians and Muslims? And if it is, as the article says, violence between Christians and Muslims, why doesn't it report any of the violence against Muslims by Christians?

Looks like this is just another transparent attempt to whip up hatred against Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 12:45 PM

There are plenty of Muslims who whip up their own salad of hatred; there are plenty of Christians who do the same; and there are even Jews who do the same, of which Martin is sometimes one.


Seems to me that someone ought to listen to the Teachers who suggest that hatred is not good for you.   Don't care which -- Buddha, Jesus, Allah, Zarathustra.

Funny how many turn to the gods of war and violence when the biggest missing piece is from a different part of the heart altogether.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 01:16 PM

here is a link to an article in Inside Indonesia It's an old article, but can given an idea of the complexity of competing factors that contribute to violence in Indonesia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 02:59 PM

A person cannot be a murderer and a Muslim. Or a Christian.

History has myriad examples of hypocrisy, people committing criminal acts under the guise of religion.

Journalists may be dumb enough to swallow the Muslim vs Christian cover for such behavior, but the rest of us should think a little more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 03:11 PM

From Freda's article...

Ambon is in a state of simmering civil war. The latest outbreak in mid-July had by early August left dozens dead. Hundreds died in earlier fighting between Christians and Muslims from January till April 1999. Similar communal battles broke out in the remote fishing town of Tual, also in southern Maluku province, in April, again leaving hundreds dead. Many tens of thousands of refugees, mostly Muslim, have fled the conflict for South Sulawesi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM

Hatred in the name of religion. What a NOVEL concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:52 PM

Whether a man's head is cut off by extremist Muslims or a girl is plowed under by an Israeli bulldozer, violence is to be deplored in any way shape of form. Violence cuts across every religious, ethnic or national line and whenever employed it does no good whatever.

The real violence is about denial and the self-righteous use of it by anyone including the present administration in the U.S.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM

"...one of the heads was left outside a church leading to speculation that it might have had a religious motive."
Why not the other two then? There's way too much of such 'speculation' IMO


Terrific post Amos. I'll quickly genuflect at that shrine and then be moving right along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:39 PM

Typical answers by Mudcat regulars who justify insanity.

Sure, religion can be a springboard for violence. Always has. But the article just points how as usual the one religion that continues to be violent in such a historic, barbaric manner.

Comparing this to bulldozers is idiotic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 07:41 PM

Oh so now its O.K. to be violent as long as its done in a civilized manner? Isn't that an oxymoron?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 07:51 PM

When I think of those--of any religion--who commit violence in the name of their religion, I only hope there is a just God.

If, there will be a lot of nasty surprises.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 07:54 PM

And as an afterthought, that also goes for anyone of any religion who tries to sow hatred for any other religion.

I trust you take my point here.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,Zbar
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 08:14 PM

Seems to me I recall thousands and thousands of ethnic Chinese that were mass murdered in Indonesia not all that long ago historically, and it wasn't because of religion. It was because they were Chinese, period.

Ignorant and violent people can always find a handy excuse to kill their neighbours...regardless of what their religion is...as long as their neighbours are seen to be different in any way. The Chinese were hated for 2 very simple reasons:

1. They were generally good at running businesses and making money.

2. They were "different".

The reason those girls were killed was most likely because their killers saw them as "different". That's what is behind most such violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 09:40 PM

Zbar - I am not condoning the killing of the Chinese in Indonesia but I do think there is another way of looking at it.

1. They were good at exploiting people

2. They were not Indonesian

In other words, most people do not like it when people from another country exploit their resources and their labour.

The Chinese were not liked in VietNam, either. Its a hard pill to swallow when your country is owned by foreign interests, even if it is done legally.

In B.C., Kinder Morgan (Texans) just bought our gas pipelines. We don't like it. In fact, everytime someone from the U.S. buys another Canadian resource, company or industry, we protest. Why? Because it means that the profit will be going into a country other than our own. We would rather see our own country prosper.

Some people feel strongly enough about it to actually do something about it. If your own government is corrupt enough to allow a take over by foreign nationals, the people are moved to take action.

Exploitation makes some people very angry and unfortunately that anger is sometimes directed at certain ethnic groups because they are identifiable. Hopefully, people are beginning to realize that it is not religion or ethnicity that is creating the wide gap between the rich and the poor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 09:51 PM

Oh yay! Now we'll have all those brilliant, fun penis and vagina and pubic hair insults back again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 11:36 PM

Amos is the full of hate hypocrite.

He hates Bush 'cause he won the election.
He hates me 'cause I voted for Bush.
And he hates Bush and me 'cause Kerry lost.

I don't hate him though. He's entertaining.

Old guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:10 AM

"Amos is the full of hate hypocrite."

That was said by someone who doesn't know Amos at all. He is a genuine thinking being with the heart of a angel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 09:02 AM

Oh, I am definitely pro-tit - does that make me a protitute?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 01:59 PM

Given the choice between a protitudinal and an antititudinal stance, I think the natural superiority of the former is a given...

Old Guy - I know for a fact that the REAL reason Amos hates you has nothing to do with your politics. He's jealous of your sequined underwear, the ones with the little embroidered flowers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:02 PM

Hell, LH. We are ALL jealous of them!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:02 PM

Nah, I don't hate Ole Guy; I enjoy his rare moments of lucidity, just like I enjoy any other thinking person's and I respect his ability and right to reach the conclusions he chooses based on the data he selects.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:22 PM

Don't I KNOW it, Bruce. ;-) It makes me sick just thinking about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:49 PM

The Muslim religion is probably the greatest threat to humanity today. Take a religion that totally integrates faith and government and believes in spreading it's message through armed conflict, put it in a position of watching the infidels all around it, who are destined for Hell anyway, gather wealth and power, and you have a recipe for apocalypse.
I am not saying that Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or the Nordic Pantheon are superior to the Muslim belief system, only that most of the others have received a generous dose of rationality over the past 2000 years, and that tends to reduce the number of frothing, raving fundamentalists within them. The sad thing is that true believers, Christian and Muslim alike, interpret their prospective word-of-god pamphlets (the Bible and the Koran) literally, and literal interpretation is rife with intolerance.
Religious fundamentalism is organizationally-imposed madness. How else could you induce relatively sane humans to decapitate innocent children, impale babies, burn people at the stake, and fly planeloads of people into skyscrapers, all the while convinced they were doing GOOD?
Personally, I believe it is time for the Human Race to declare religion in all its forms to be baseless, medieval, mythological bullshit, elevate ethical behavior to a science which can be studied and applied, turn churches and mosques into universities or museums, realize we're all going to die and there will be no harps or virgins, and get the fuck on with the serious business of preserving the human race and the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:51 PM

Four soldiers from the Army's Task Force Baghdad soldiers died Monday when their patrol struck a roadside bomb in Youssifiyah, 12 miles south of Baghdad in an area known as the ``triangle of death.''

Two other soldiers from the 29th Brigade Combat Team were also killed in a bombing Monday near Balad, 50 miles north of Baghdad. The U.S. military also said a Marine was killed Sunday near Amiriyah, 25 miles west of Baghdad.

Those deaths raised the death toll for October to more than 90, the highest monthly total since January when 107 American service members died. The latest deaths brought to 2,025 the number of U.S. service members who have died since the Iraq war began in March 2003.

In Washington, Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said there is no readily apparent explanation for why the number of U.S. casualties was higher in October than in previous months. But he said the insurgents' roadside bombs - which the military calls improvised explosive devices, or IEDs - are getting more sophisticated.

``We see an adversary that continues to develop some sophistication on very deadly and increasingly precise stand-off type weapons - IEDs, in particular. They're obviously quite capable of killing large numbers of noncombatants indiscriminately, and we're seeing a lot of that, too,'' Di Rita told reporters.

The insurgents continually search for new and more effective ways to use IEDs, he said, while U.S. forces look for new ways to counter the IED threat.

``We're getting more intelligence that's allowing us to stop more of these things, find more of them. So we're learning from them (the insurgents) and the enemy is learning from us, and it's going to be that way for as long as there is an insurgency,'' Di Rita said.

Before dawn Monday, Marines backed by jets attacked insurgent positions near the Syrian border, destroying two safe houses believed use by al-Qaida figures, a U.S. statement said. The statement made no mention of casualties, but Associated Press Television News video from the scene showed residents wailing over the bodies of about six people, including at least three children.

At the local hospital, Dr. Ahmed al-Ani claimed 40 Iraqis, including 12 children, were killed in the attack. But the claim could not be independently verified.

APTN footage from the scene showed Iraqi men digging through the rubble of several destroyed concrete buildings with a pitchfork or their hands. In the building of a nearby home, women cried over the bodies of about half a dozen blanket-covered bodies lined up on a floor. Some of the blankets were opened for the camera showing a man and three children.

``At least 20 innocent people were killed by the U.S. warplanes. Why are the Americans killing families? Where are the insurgents?'' one middle-aged man told APTN. ``We don't see democracy. We just see destruction.'' He didn't give his name.

Elsewhere, two separate mortar attacks in Baghdad and northern Iraq killed three Iraqi people and wounded 11 on Monday.




Thank gawd fer that dose of rationality, I say.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 03:41 PM

The greatest threat to humanity today is the worship of the almighty dollar, fundamentalist style.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Wesley S
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 04:30 PM

For so many people in this world the almighty dollar IS a religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 04:31 PM

Agreed, Carol! That...and blaming other people for one's own emotional problems. Every time America starts feeling bad about itself it goes off and fights a war somewhere to feel better. That is also true of people like Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. They all make the mistake of blaming someone else for their own emotional problems, and they are willing to kill for it. Deciding who did it to who "first" is largely a waste of time, because you'd have to go back to prehistory to settle that little issue...

It's always a mistake, no matter who does it to who else.

Ye who rave on about the evils of "religion" are probably blind to the functioning of your own. Look to whatever you place ultimate faith in...there is your chosen religion. It does not require a church, a prophet, or a holy book. It does not even require a "god" outside of you, because your own ego can BE the ruling god of your chosen religion, and in most cases, it IS.

Note with what vehemence you defend it on a daily basis. Take my advice...it ain't worth no more than the latest nonsense from Billy Graham or Osama Bin Laden. It will pass away soon enough, and the World won't miss it much when it does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 06:06 PM

OK, let's suppose I do have my own belief system, and it includes the following precepts:
1) Women are inferior to men. They should always walk behind me and be kept completely enshrouded in cloth so that they won't be contaminated by outsiders.
2)I believe that a Mighty Power listens to everything I say, and tells me what I should do, up to and including destroying people who disagree with my beliefs. In fact, if I fail to do what this Mighty Power instructs, red men with horns will punish me with fire.
3)Acting through a middle-aged man in a robe, the Mighty Power converts Merlot wine to sacred blood and Premium saltines to sacred flesh with a simple incantation.
4)I wear sacred undergarments which protect my purity.
5)If I die in the act of destroying those who disagree with me, I win instant admission to Heaven for myself and all the members of my family PLUS I receive 19 "dark-eyed virgins".
6)There are people living near me who are so spiritually filthy that even their slightest touch might contaminate me. I believe they should all be permanently marked for easy identification.

How do you like my personal belief system? It really should pose no problem for you, Little Hawk, unless you are a) a woman b) spiritually unclean or c) disagree with me.

Now, if any individual exhibited these beliefs and practices, he would at the least be thought insane, and at the most be imprisoned because of the threat he posed to others. In fact, these are beliefs held by several major religions. Are you saying because these beliefs are institutionalized, recorded in sacred texts and supposedly handed down by a Mighty Power, that beliefs and behaviors intolerable in an individual are acceptable in a group?

Granted Little Hawk, you and I are probably not insane or dangerous. We do not believe that those who disagree with us are hell-bound, Satanic, or out to corrupt and destroy our children. We are open to different ideas. Hell, we are so tolerant and open-minded that we even think homicidal self-righteous fundamentalist maniacs have a right to their own opinion.
And I don't think that most Muslims or Christians are maniacs, just the ones who view the world in terms of us and them, good and evil, God and Satan. Just the true believers who follow the letter of the book. And because true belief necessitates the decision "I am following the right precepts and the true path as mandated by God" ,other paths are wrong, false, and mandated by Satan. There is no place in Osama's, nor in Pat Robertson's, world for your concept of God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 06:10 PM

PS Can someone possibly correct the spelling of "violence" in this thread title?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 06:11 PM

I agre. Coreck the speling! Muslum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 06:21 PM

I can't do much, LEJ, about the fact that there are a lot of people in the World who believe idiotic, destructive, and dysfunctional things. I can do something about myself. I believe in "live and let live". I gather that you do too. I hope so, anyway.

I do not blame my problems in life on other people's dysfunctionality, generally speaking...although I've had moments when I blamed my parents for some of them. ;-) I'm trying to get over that gradually. I figure that my problems are mostly self-created...so my job is to fix myself, not other people.

I'll say this, though. Although you and I are not what would be regarded as "insane or dangerous" by a lot of people's yardstick...some might regard us that way if they thought very differently about certain things. One has to bear that in mind when travelling in a foreign culture, and act accordingly. There is always the possibility of being totally misunderstood by people.

And...everyone is insane by someone else's standards. Maybe not dangerous...but insane? Yep.

It's when people are fairly obviously insane by almost everyone's standards, and in a way that directly affects others, that we take real exception to it. Most Muslims I know (and I know a fair few) do not in the least agree with Osama Bin Laden's view of how to establish a better World. I guess the Muslims that I know are "liberal" or progressive Muslims.

Everyone has a right to his own opinion. He doesn't have a right to do harm to others on account of his own opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 06:56 PM

There were about 3,000 peace-loving people drinking coffee and working at their desks on 9/11/1. I would bet that most of them were quite a bit like us. I'm sure many were religious, probably most in that live-and-let-live moderately religious way that characterizes most of your country and mine. They probably believed that most people do have a right to their own opinion, and that God has "many doorways through which the faithful may enter". What killed them was a catastrophe engineered by a group of men who didn't see the world in that way at all.

These hijackers didn't act to make a political statement. They didn't go to their deaths shouting "long live Osama" or "God Bless Syria". They were possessed by religious fervor.
This is where I disagree about the Almighty Dollar. Say what you will, the Almighty Dollar won't coerce someone into driving a plane into a building, or beheading an Irish relief worker. Because there is SOME LOGIC to what someone will do for money, there are predictable outcomes. A person acting on the tenets of an irrational belief system is almost completely unpredictable. He will carry you, or me, or the people drinking coffee in Trade Center 1, kicking and screaming into his World View.
Much of the Bible and the Koran are primitive texts that refer to strife and scuffling among people thousands of years ago, when a man could pick up a sword and cleanse the world of his enemies in the name of God. And there are plenty of specific references to doing just that in both of them. Well, nowadays, a man doesn't need anything as crude as a sword. A vest loaded with C4, or a truck, or an airliner, or a freighter can multiply his righteous power one million fold.

And the fact, unpleasant as it is, is that these methods of dealing with unbelievers are as much a part of sacred text as are admonitions to "love thy neighbor" or "turn the other cheek". Those moderate Muslims and moderate Christians who want to live and let live have simply decided, as they have decided to not take the 6 day creation story literally, to ignore these passages, while tolerating those who follow the literal truth.

If we tolerate their beliefs, do we not enable their actions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:03 PM

The flaw in your reasoning, LEJ, especially when you make a blanket statement like, "The Muslim religion is probably the greatest threat to humanity today", is that it assumes that all Muslims believe what you have described, which couldn't possibly be farther from the truth. It's a stereotype about Muslims that is being promoted by people with bigoted hate agendas.

The truth is that the people you have described are extremist fundamentalist Muslims, and there are millions of Muslims in the world who are not extremist fundamentalists. Extremist fundamentalists of other belief systems are guilty of many things that are just as reprehensible as what you have described... even today, at this point in history.

And my last post points to one kind of extremist fundamentalism that is far more dangerous to humanity than any other kind of extremist fundamentalism.

Extremist fundamentalism is the problem, not Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:19 PM

Because there is SOME LOGIC to what someone will do for money, there are predictable outcomes.

This couldn't be further from the truth. The total destruction of earth as a place capable of supporting human life is a possible (many scientists would say quite likely) outcome of many of the decisions and actions of people who worship the almighty dollar above all else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:50 PM

Carol
You are taking what points you prefer to take from my argument and attacking those. My main point is this : Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are not political or social constructs. They are religions which have as their origins specific sacred texts, which all three believe to be the Word of God. This I also believe to be true of the other major world religions. The difference between dangerous fundamentalists in any of these and the moderate practitioners is this: The Fundamentalists follow the letter of the sacred texts, believing that in so doing they will gain salvation.
NOW...since all three sacred texts have numerous disagreements, either only ONE is the Truth, or God is suffering from a severe personality disorder. To believe that all three are acceptable requires a neutral standpoint,ie, you cannot be a true believer and hold that view. If you are a true believer, you must determine that those who disagree are wrong.

We agree on one thing. Extremist fundamentalism is the problem. This is why I think Islamic extremism is more dangerous than other forms: In Islamic culture, there is no tradition of the separation of church and state. That separation is an alien concept to them. The Mullahs who rule Iran are Islamic Extremist Fundamentalists. They hold the same belief system as the suicide bombers. They are short months from having a nuclear weapon.

Does Christian Fundamentalist extremism pose an equal threat? Not yet, anyway. In most Western democracies there is a long standing tradition of separation of church and state, even though being put under seige by the current crop of neocon knuckleheads.

I am not going to defend the abuses foisted on the world to make money. Greed has been at the heart of many unjust things done in the world, and religion has often been used as its justification. So has racism. Homosexuals have been persecuted for hundreds of years because, again, the "Bible condemns it."

I think religion of all types is man's most irrational construction, and his most dangerous. In a world of limitless opportunities to reduce suffering, disease, war and ignorance, religion stands as the greatest obstacle to our success as a species. And I am not hopeful that we can overcome it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:08 PM

"Those moderate Muslims and moderate Christians who want to live and let live have simply decided, as they have decided to not take the 6 day creation story literally, to ignore these passages, while tolerating those who follow the literal truth.

"If we tolerate their beliefs, do we not enable their actions?"

I definitely agree with that last paragraph, Lonesome EJ, but I do want to point out that a substantial number of moderate Muslims and Christians are speaking out. Some folks condemn moderate Muslims and Christians for not taking a stand against the more extreme members of their religion, but from my observations, the moderates of both religions are getting a bum rap. I've heard several Muslim imams being interviewed on the radio (my local NPR affiliate, that bastion of the "liberal media") who are most angry and upset, first by the actions of extremists within their religion claiming that they are acting in the name of Allah when the Koran specifically forbids what they are doing, and secondly (and rightly so!) when Christians and others lump all Muslims into the same category. They're tired of hearing the perpetual juxtaposition of the words "Muslim" and "extremists," as if the two words are welded together. I've heard them speak out strenuously against those who select particular passages from the Koran and act as if they were the only passages that matter.

That rings loud bells for moderate and progressive Christians and the same holds true for them. When people who don't know any better say "Christians say this" or "Christians believe that," as if Christianity was some kind of monolith, there is little weeping and wailing, but a great gnashing of teeth. Probably one of the most prominent Christian spokespersons is the Rev. Jim Wallis, author of God's Politics : Why the Right Gets It Wrong and The Left Doesn't Get It. Within the past few years, Wallis has been interviewed on radio and television any number of times (usually on local NPR and PBS affiliates), and he is currently traveling around the country giving lectures (around 200 lectures and speeches within the past year). Also, there are many book discussion groups around the country discussing Wallis's book, and it's the subject of adult forums in many moderate and progressive Christian churches.

Moderated Muslims and Christians alike are bloody well fed up with the extreme wings of their respective religions and that fact that people are thoughtlessly lumping the moderates in with the extremists. And they are speaking out loudly. But you don't hear much about it because they just don't get the news coverage. So that's the reason for some of the book groups and adult forums:   to get something like a "grass roots" movement under weigh.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:46 PM

Don

There is hope for Muslims, Christians, and Jews alike, as well as Hindus and Confucianists. In today's world, all of us share essentially the same challenges and problems. Most people take the road of moderation where their religion is concerned, and this road shares many of the same beliefs: Universal truths, as expressed in the 10 commandments and found in all cultures, coupled with the truth about the world as taught to us by the scientific principle. This is the basis of a religion that we could all share. Some have called it Secular Humanism. Some have merely called it Reason. It lacks some things present in Religion. It does not promise that, by following certain precepts, we will survive Death. That is indeed the trump card for most religions. Would people have really worn hair shirts, walked 100 times around a cross on their knees, and self-flagellated unless they thought there was a reward, unless there was a Heaven? Would they have slaughtered each other doing "god's will" unless it bought them a pass from the grave and reunited them with lost loved ones?

No, Reason can't promise us pie in the sky. It is, however, the belief we humanists, moderate Christians, and moderate Muslims already share. It's my sincere wish that we will find a way to leave our destructive mythologies behind and, if we can't make our Heaven here on Earth, at least stop making it a hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:52 PM

Women of Muslim faith all across the Muslim world have begun a Muslim feminine liberation movement seeking to bring Muslim thinking into an age of equality between the genders. (I have lost the link but it was on the web today).

They are not using bombs or blades to do, and they behead no-one. I would expect there will be some carefully applied mood control, in the best tradition of the wives of Greek warriors, but probably nothing worse than that and a little emotional blackmail.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 09:05 PM

From the India Hindu:

Muslim women launch "gender jihad"

Giles Tremlett— © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

Male chauvinism is the destruction of Islam as a balanced way of life: activist



Barcelona (SPAIN): Marching under the banner of a new ``gender jihad'', Islamic feminists from around the world this weekend launched what they hope will become a global movement to liberate Muslim women.

The meeting, which drew women from as far apart as Malaysia, Mali, Egypt and Iran, set itself the task of squaring Islam with feminism. That meant not just combating 14 centuries of gender discrimination in the Muslim world, participants said, but also dealing with the animosity to Islam of many Western or secular feminists. They insisted that many of the fundamental concepts of equality embraced by feminism could also be found in the Koran.

``Gender jihad is the struggle against male chauvinistic, homophobic or sexist readings of the Islamic sacred texts,'' said Abdennur Prado, one of the meeting's Spanish organisers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM

Moslem Violence.

There, you happy?

It still is the same thing no matter how you spell it. A religion and a way of life that is completely barbaric and stuck in the 10th century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 09:23 PM

And then, unfortunately, there are those that are hell-bent on stirring up strife.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: bobad
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 09:24 PM

Yeah, just like those that ritualize infant mutilation and female purification baths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: bobad
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 09:31 PM

Not referring to you Don Firth, cross posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 10:53 PM

I don't want to pry into Tia's life but I have an idea to combat Muslim violence.

We need the Queer Corps. Take all the homos in the military and form a new lean mean fightin' machine called the Queer Corps.

Them friggin terrorists will vacate any battlefield populated by the Queer Corps.

I'll even donate my sequined underwear to the "Head" Commander.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 11:06 PM

LEJ, if you mean that you think extremist fundamentalist Islam is the greatest threat to humanity today, I think it would be a very good idea to make sure you communicate exactly that, and that you don't make blanket condemnations of "the Muslim religion". I know you can understand the distinction that I am making... the distinction between the statement, "the Muslim religion is the greatest threat to humanity today", and "extremist fundamentalist Islam is the greatest threat to humanity today", and why it is so very, very important to enunciate these distinctions.

Having said that, I do disagree with your premise, but we can agree to disagree on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 11:24 PM

Also, this...

Does Christian Fundamentalist extremism pose an equal threat? Not yet, anyway. In most Western democracies there is a long standing tradition of separation of church and state, even though being put under seige by the current crop of neocon knuckleheads.

The Christian religion does not have any "long standing tradition of separation of church and state". Some western democracies have such a tradition, but those democracies include Muslims along with the Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, etc. that make up their populations.

Conversely, we have seen that Christianity, when married to totalitarian political systems, is just brutal and repressive as Islam is now, or ever has been. The main difference is that there presently aren't any countries with totalitarian political systems married to Christianity. So the problem, again, is not the Muslim religion... it is totalitarianism married to religion.

There are and have been countries with democratic political systems and Muslim majorities, in which there is a separation between the majority religion and the government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Violance
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 01:25 AM

That is damned generous of you, Old Guy! (about the underwear, I mean) Your character has gone way up in my estimation. ;-)

I don't think there are any statistics to suggest that homosexual men are poor fighters on the battlefield, are there? You gotta remember that among homosexuals there are those who prefer to play the more feminine role and those who most definitely don't....besides which, women can also fight like hell when they choose to. Therefore, I should think that forming gay combat formations might actually be quite effective if you want a good fighting army.

Don't forget, the Spartans, who were the most effective fighters in ancient Greece and in the whole world at that time, seem to have virtually all been either homosexual or bisexual. It didn't make them weaklings on the battlefield. Quite the contrary. They were utterly deadly.

So...where did the modern BS about effeminate poofs come from anyway? I'd guess it was the natural reaction of heterosexual males who are scared shitless when the subject of homosexuality "comes up". Maybe they're scared because they fear some such latent tendency in themselves.

One has to wonder. In my case, I never gave a damn about it one way or another. I find the idea of men having sex with men totally unappealing and a complete turn-off, but do I worry about other people doing that or liking it? No. I simply don't care, as long as they don't bother me about it, and as long as they keep it private and between consenting adults. I consider it a total non-issue. Boring, in fact.

Some religious text proscribes it? Well, I don't care about that either. I love God, but I don't think he's a beancounter and I don't think he wrote the Bible either. Men wrote the Bible. They were no doubt inspired by God in many of the passages, but they were men and they were fallible. They included a lot of their own cultural blind spots and prejudices in what they wrote.

Fundamentalist Muslims take a very dim view of most of the same things that fundamentalist Jews and Christians take a dim view of...and all because of the same ancient holy books! They all revere Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and Isaiah! I find that ironical. Extremely so. What you have here is a religious family quarrel. That can be a pretty vicious situation.


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