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BS: Facts about Bush just facts

GUEST,Guest 974 16 Sep 05 - 08:29 PM
Bobert 16 Sep 05 - 08:41 PM
kendall 16 Sep 05 - 09:00 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 05 - 09:06 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 05 - 09:10 PM
Bobert 16 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM
Azizi 16 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM
Azizi 16 Sep 05 - 09:27 PM
Bobert 16 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 16 Sep 05 - 09:56 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 05 - 09:59 PM
Bobert 16 Sep 05 - 10:01 PM
Azizi 16 Sep 05 - 10:05 PM
Rapparee 16 Sep 05 - 10:08 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 16 Sep 05 - 10:13 PM
Bobert 16 Sep 05 - 10:31 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 16 Sep 05 - 11:07 PM
Don Firth 16 Sep 05 - 11:18 PM
dianavan 16 Sep 05 - 11:31 PM
Sorcha 16 Sep 05 - 11:46 PM
Ron Davies 16 Sep 05 - 11:47 PM
dianavan 16 Sep 05 - 11:50 PM
Susu's Hubby 17 Sep 05 - 12:00 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 12:10 AM
Sorcha 17 Sep 05 - 12:11 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 12:17 AM
Susu's Hubby 17 Sep 05 - 12:29 AM
Susu's Hubby 17 Sep 05 - 12:43 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 12:49 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 12:57 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 01:16 AM
Barry Finn 17 Sep 05 - 01:48 AM
Don Firth 17 Sep 05 - 04:14 AM
Tam the man 17 Sep 05 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,G 17 Sep 05 - 07:26 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 08:17 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 08:23 AM
John Hardly 17 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM
Ron Davies 17 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM
Bobert 17 Sep 05 - 08:46 AM
John Hardly 17 Sep 05 - 08:52 AM
Tam the man 17 Sep 05 - 09:05 AM
Donuel 17 Sep 05 - 09:12 AM
John Hardly 17 Sep 05 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,G 17 Sep 05 - 09:34 AM
Alice 17 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM
Donuel 17 Sep 05 - 10:04 AM
Rapparee 17 Sep 05 - 10:32 AM
Donuel 17 Sep 05 - 11:04 AM
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Subject: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: GUEST,Guest 974
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:29 PM

Why is no one saying anything about the real facts regarding President Bush's performance related to poverty?
Here are some concrete facts people should know if they care to really operate from factual information rather than just bashing.

By the mid term of President Clintons presidency there had been 192 Billion Dollars spent on people living below the poverty line.The number of people living below the poverty line was 13.7%.The 192 Billion represented 12.2 % of the total budget.For this president Clinton was called the first Black President.

By mid term of office in the Bush presidency there has been 368 Billion Dollars spent on the same group of people.The number of people iving below the poverty line is 12.1 %.The 368 Billion dollars represented 14.6% of the total budget.For this President Bush is called a racist and is said to have commited genocide.

Why is it that when folks don't agree with those that are doing the Bashing of President Bush they are said to be uninformed?The reality is that those doing the Bashing tend to overlook the real facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:41 PM

Sources???


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:00 PM

What is that saying about lies, big lies and statistics? Is that the case here? If what you say is true, it should be known.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:06 PM

It is all a matter of public record available for all who want to really know the truth.I agree that statistics can lie but these are not statistics and you will not ever hear them from those that don't want the truth to be known for what ever reason.

What is really needed is for people to quit the bashing and try to be objective.There are many problems to be solved but none will be if the only thing people want to do is bash someone.

Neither side neither the far left nor the far right is correct and until everything moves to the middle and people want to seek the real truth the system will stay broken. the only thing that will change is the names of theplayers. If a democrat wins election next time, the far right will be doing the bashing. for what purpose?who the hell knows? there is no real purpose as far as i am concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:10 PM

All i am asking anyone to do is to do what i did. go look for the truth and do not listen to anyone that is not speaking from facts. we are headed down a very bad path that will lead to absolutely nowhere worth going to.
I could tell you the answer to where and how but don't you think it would be a good idea to find it yourself so that you would know how and where to find the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM

Yeah, Kendall, I sniffin' out some fuzzy math my ownseff... Some stat guy must burned up hald a dozen Wes Ginny Slide Rules on this one...

I will go out on a limb here and say that these stats cab be debunked and while Guest 974 may actaully beilive them becuase he heard them on some right wiong radio staion that when the onion gets peeled, like Iraq an' jsut about anything else that the Bushites have done, beneath it all are lies, damned lies and weapons of mass destruction...

The fact is the poverty has increased every year since Bush has been in office...

Even the census bureau has had to kinda hide stuff since thay won't regionally index cost of lving 'er the poverty rates would be even higher...

I will give credit to the Bushite's fir one thing: they lie better than the other guys...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM

Here's what the US Census Report Press Release; says:


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
TUESDAY, AUGUST 30, 2005, AT 10:10 A.M. EDT

   
Income Stable, Poverty Rate Increases, Percentage of Americans
Without Health Insurance Unchanged

   
Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 at $44,389, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau. Meanwhile, the nation's official poverty rate rose from 12.5 percent in 2003 to 12.7 percent in 2004. The percentage of the nation's population without health insurance coverage remained stable, at 15.7 percent in 2004. The number of people with health insurance increased by 2.0 million to 245.3 million between 2003 and 2004, and the number without such coverage rose by 800,000 to 45.8 million.

    These findings are contained in the Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2004 [PDF] report. The report's data were compiled from information collected in the 2005 Annual Social and Economic Supplement (ASEC) to the Current Population Survey (CPS).


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:27 PM

Also see this Washingtonpost.com article Poverty Rate Up 3rd Year In a Row

Here is an excerpt of that article:

Poverty Rate Up 3rd Year In a Row
More Also Lack Health Coverage

By Ceci Connolly and Griff Witte
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, August 27, 2004; Page A01

The number of Americans living in poverty or lacking health insurance rose for the third straight year in 2003, the Census Bureau announced yesterday, reflecting a job market that failed to match otherwise strong economic growth.

Overall, the median household income remained stagnant at $43,318, while the national poverty rate rose to 12.5 percent -- 35.9 million people -- last year, from 12.1 percent in 2002. Hit hardest were women, who for the first time since 1999 saw their earnings decline, and children. By the end of 2003, 12.9 million children lived in poverty.

As expected, the number of people without health insurance grew last year, to 45 million -- an increase to 15.6 percent from 15.2 percent. White adults, primarily in the South, accounted for most of the increase. The proportion of people receiving health insurance through an employer fell to 60.4 percent, the lowest level in a decade, from 61.3 percent."


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM

Thanks, MiziAzizi, fir the most helpfull link...

Fox TV, et al, will report and say anything they want to say and it gets spread around as fact..

Most recently they reported extensively on doctors being shot at in New Orleans... Yeah, they reported this over and over like fir a couple day but, after the reporting had been debunked as false, did Fox make any effort to correct the impressions they had put in the minds of their followers??? Well, I'll answer that one... Heck no0, they didn't...

Well, fir a station taht is so supportive of the Bush administration and Bush claiming to be a man of Faith, I'd think that they'd make every effort to correct the sin of misinforming people... Lieing is lieing even if you aren't aware that you are lieing *if* you find that you were mistaken...

Jesus tells us to confess and sin no more...

How can a station that is blindly supportive of an adminstration headed by a man who *claims* to be of Faith, when given evidence that they have been lieing to folks, make no confession and sin no more????

I reckon it comes down to "Garbage in, garbage out"... Some folks will continue to accept what ever crap Fox wants to throw their way and never try to balance it with anything else...

Reminds me of the "brown shirts" in the 30's in Germany who ***beleived*** whatever they were told to believe...

The truth, however, will always find the light of day... Sometimes takes years.... Sometimes a couple days...

Thanks fir the link, Mizi...

Bobert

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:56 PM

You want facts, just facts and nothing but the facts about George W. Bush? Well, the only absolute, for sure, dyed-in-the-wool, no-doubt-about-it FACT that I know about George W. Bush is that he has big ears and looks like a monkey. It's a fact and no amount of statistics juggling, number crunching or spin doctoring can change it.

On the other hand, the only real FACT I know about Bill Clinton is that he looks like a chipmunk and talks sorta like Mister Ed.

Anything else that can be said about either of them may well be a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:59 PM

What does it matter what either one of them look like?

What do you look like and how is that supposed to affect my opinion of you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:01 PM

Yeah, bottom line is what we are seein' is a slow but sure redristribtution of wealth away from the poor (????, like thay had much to begin with) as well as the middle class (stagnant wages...) upwards to those who started out the ones with the most???

Yeah, that is really the story here...

This ain't 'bout Dems 'er Repubs... It's very much about unbridles greed and access to power... The rich have purchased their "boy" and their "boy" is doing exactly what the rich want him to do... Hey, they aren't concerned about debt either on an individual basis or a governmental bais...

Lioke who's money is being used in Iraq or to rebuild New Orleans??? The rich folks??? Think again... It's the Chinese and the Europeans money and they ain't givin' it as some kinda benevolent gift... No, they are baying tresuar bonds and the US is gonna have to pay them interst on these bonds when they mature... So who's paying for the Bush spending spree??? The poor... The working man... Our kids... Not the rich... Not in the porportion that they could...

Hey, there's only so much money and if the rich corral it all then what happens???

Don't take a Wes Ginny Slide Rule to see the formula fir disaster we got going here... Poor on the fast tract to poorer and the rich on the fast tract to richer...

At some point, as has hppened every time that this equation has gotten too far outta whack, stuff happens that don't read to well in the history book...

Bush is a whore for tyhe corporations and the rich... Everyone else going backwards... When "Southern Man" get's it, this cvountry gonna come to the boilin' point...

Yeah, Boss Hog won't be able to hook up his SUV behind his million dollar bus and just hit the road... Now, he'll hopver behind his compound walls like his counterparts in Haiti...

Maybe this is what Guest envisons for America but I sho nuff don't and I'm sho nuff absolutely sho that Jesus don't either...

So them folks can hide behind their *supposed* Faith but don't mean jack to this real follower of Christ...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:05 PM

Hello Brother Bobert!

How you be?

Here's another link you might find interesting:

Consumer sentiment plummets in September

And here is an excerpt from that Sept. 16, 2005 Reuter's article which was subtitled "Americans seen nervous about Katrina's economic impact":

"NEW YORK - U.S. consumer sentiment this month plunged to its lowest in over a decade as the fallout from Hurricane Katrina made Americans nervous that the economy may slow down, a report said Friday.

The University of Michigan said its reading on confidence dropped sharply to 76.9 so far this month from 89.1 in August, according to sources who saw the subscription-only report.

That was lower than the reading after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on U.S. cities, but comparable to that seen following Hurricane Andrew in 1992....

Expectations about the future, as measured by the survey, also took a serious hit, swooning to a 13-year low.

"These are abysmal numbers, suggesting a deeply pessimistic consumer in the first half of September," said Christopher Low, chief economist at FTN Financial.

The expectations component retreated to 63.6 from 76.9, while the one for current conditions dived to 97.7 from 108.2."


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:08 PM

What the mayors say.

From other sources I am aware of, I found these to be accurate; I invite you to check their accuracy for yourself. (This are not strictly about Bush.)

The Liberal Party in Canada states:

...Let's compare 2003 rates:

Someone with an income of CDN$30,000 in Canada paid 11.9%, or CDN$3559 federal income tax. Someone in the United States, making USD$30,000 ended up paying USD$4310 federal tax, or about 14.4%.

An individual making CDN$60,000 paid CDN$10,028 or about 16.7%. The U.S. amount for USD$60,000 is USD$13,810 or about 23%. That is probably shocking to most Canadians. Please note this comparison does not include State or Provincial taxes -- which could add between 0% to 10%, depending on where you live. It also does not factor in tax deductions, which can vary greatly on an individual basis.

Futhermore, the average Canadian income in $CAD is higher than the average U.S. income in $USD. In 2001, the average family income in Canada was $60,300CAD. In that same year, the US average was $42,228USD (or roughly $57,000CAD at a 1.35 exchange rate). This contradicts another popular myth that the average American makes more money.

Once you start looking at the actual numbers, you find that Canadian tax rates are very much in line with those in the United States, on average. Our economy, trade deficit and federal budgets have been much better for years.
(The entire thing is here.)

During 2003, net borrowing and lending grew steadily due to record low interest rates and a growing federal budget deficit. Net borrowing and lending in credit markets reached a new peak of $2,7 trillion in the 1st quarter of 2004 (annualized amount). Average of borrowing and lending in 2003 was roughly more than double the volume of borrowing and lending in 1995, and first two quarters of 2004 has experienced high debt levels. The growth in net borrowing during 2002 and 2003 has been driven by borrowing in the household and government sectors. -- Source (and lots of other valuable economic data) can be found here.

Sorry, but I think that the facts actually make the picture look pretty darned bleak for the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:13 PM

Sorry, I forgot that in addition to not having names, anonymous GUESTs rarely have senses of humor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:31 PM

Yeah, Rap, that's what I be sayin'... The average Ameriocan workin' stiff is gettin' stiffed... And ain't even got no health insurance either... Heck, if we were gettin' something fir our money it'd bee one thing but we ain't gettin' jack!!!

Only industriaslized nation to not provide health care and we're payin' thru the nose while the rich buy up out governemnt one election at a time...

Hey, scrwew it, it ain't no governemnt any more... Let friggin' face it... It is the corporation.... Ain't got nuthin to do with government of the people... It ain't... It's the corporate "ruler"ment... And no governin' going on here... Jus a bunch of autocrats shoving anything they want to down the poor and workin' man's throats...

Like I said, gonna step over that line and' Boss Hog won't feel too comfy anywhere but behind his compound walls...

You heard it here first...

I predicted that Iraq would become an urban warfare quagmire and folks said, "Bobert, yer nuts..."

Yeah, I'm puttin' this prediction on the books so fir you Bushites, better start building thick and tall walls 'round yer houses because if this is they way you wanta play it out, look to yer Haitian counterparts... You won't be able to drive yer million dollar buses nowhere but in yer driveways...

Working class catchin' on quick...

Maybe you think that the US of A would be a great palce to start a new Third World country but Johnny Reb don't... And I don't...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:07 PM

OK Guest 974--

Maybe you don't want to be taken seriously.

But if you do, do as you were instructed early in this thread, and give your sources for your assertions.

We take nothing on faith. (And, in case you were wondering, sorry, Rush Limbaugh does not count as a reputable source.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:18 PM

GUEST,974 started this thread and it's his/her first and only post, at least so far.

I've notice that recently Mudcat seems to have accumulated a considerable number of new people, unregistered GUESTs, some with consistent (I assume) handles, some without. They're main occupation seems to be to act as Bush apologists and defenders, or to spew contempt at liberals, progressives, and anyone else who is not totally enamored of the Bush administration. I've further noticed that I rarely, if ever, see these people's names appear in posts above the line, in the music threads. Some of them do long cut-and-pastes, and it's evident from reading them that most of them come from articles on the Project for a New American Century's web site or from other neo-conservative web sites and e-mail newsletters. Usually they just make assertions and offer no links or other attribution so you can check and/or verify the source. But there are ways of doing it. Pick a more or less unique phrase (sometimes difficult to do) and paste it into google's "advanced search—exact phrase" and lo! often you find the whole article. And where it's from! Cute!

Three of them are GUEST,G, Susu's Hubby (registered), and GUEST,rarelamb.

This is a music site. Why are these people here? It would appear to be solely for political purposes. Do these folks work for Karl Rove?

Just curious.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:31 PM

Rap - Thanks for the link.

U.S. energy imports rose by 37% from 1995-2003!

Thats very scary!

No wonder Cheney is snooping around up here in Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:46 PM

I'm not in this one either, but a 'fact' I know is that he is just either stoopid or ignorant..maybe both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:47 PM

Don--

Your're right about some of our Bushites. Certainly is interesting how, when asked for sources, they clam up completely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:50 PM

A fact about Bush?

World opinion regarding the government of the United States is at an all time low.

Bush is considered a liar and a bully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:00 AM

Guest....


Welcome to the zoo. Get used to the attacks by the lefties in this area. They seem to think that they rule the roost. If you don't subscribe to their conspiracy theories or repeat their chants of "save the poor, tax the rich" then you too will be listed as a "Bushie". Oh...and about sources...it won't matter about what source you list. Even if it proves your point beyond a shadow of a doubt, it'll be dismissed as right wing propaganda or the subject will be magically changed to "Bush lied" or "well what about the illegal war?". They are masters at misdirection. Afterall, Clinton was the master at it and he seems to have taught his lemmings very well.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:10 AM

Try us with a source, Hubby. After all, my usual source in criticizing Bush is the Wall St. Journal. Too far left for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:11 AM

We seem to be able to impeach a President for sexual misconduct, but not for incompetence...and if we did impeach him we'd just get a worse one...and yes, most of us are pretty liberal around here. We don't tolerate incompetence or stupidity very well. Where is Harry Truman when we need him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:17 AM

You don't have to be liberal to criticize Bush--just a thinking being.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:29 AM

"We seem to be able to impeach a President for sexual misconduct"

So if this is a thread about facts then let's get the facts straight.

(1st lesson Guest)(Remember what I said about misdirection?)

Sorcha,

Clinton was not impeached for sexual misconduct. Clinton was impeached for lying under oath. Please stick to the truth. It's so much easier when we're both arguing over the same points.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:43 AM

Here's a source......


This is straight from the transcripts of ABC. How's that for a source or are they too far right for you?

Looks like the facts are being heard afterall.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:49 AM

Well, it sure seems time to impeach, convict and remove Bush.


A good possibility (in addition to Katrina and Iraq) is still his incredibly stupid, short-sided and criminally negligent refusal to continue the 2 programs in Russia which were securing nuclear material. As you no doubt recall, he is taking this stance at the bidding of US firms who want to be exempt from workers' compensation, but Russia refuses to let them off the hook.

Then, of course he piously whines about the importance of non-proliferation.

If by some chance you're unfamiliar with this, Hubby, there's a whole thread on it, complete with sources, including (Republican) Senator Domenici.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:57 AM

"Combating Liberal Media Bias"? Come on, Hubby. If you want to be taken seriously (maybe that's not your goal), you have to do better than that as a source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 01:16 AM

One more thing. If you don't think we could find a hell of lot more New Orleans residents who would be only too happy to put the lion's share of blame on Bush, you're sadly deluded.

So your ABC interviews prove precisely--you guessed it---nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 01:48 AM

A matter of who or where the sources come from, how's that saying go, believe non of what you hear & only half of what you see. Fact is after having a record surplus when Clinton left office after 8 yrs we're broke now in near half the time, Gov. screw up. I can see that. Who's hiding those pint size WMD? I heard that before. The coastal southern gulf states have been laid to ruin, you can believe that & we were slower to respond than other nations that wouldn't happen in an election, see Alice in FLA, I can't believe that. Poverty is rising, education is declining, see world stats & while you're there check out our infant mortality compared to other nations. Check out how we rate on the enviormental world scale. Check out who carries the bulk of the tax burden in this country. I can smell all of this... & it stinks like shit. It is now law that if your home stands in the way of politcial profit, no say, you're in the way, kiss your ass & your way of life good-bye. Look about you it's here, we are living it.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:14 AM

And that's another tactic of these folks. Whenever Bush is under fire, bring up Clinton.

What Susu's Hubby says about that is true. Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath. But he lied about something that had nothing to do with governing the country, endangering the county, or getting the country involved in an illegal war. His sexual peccadilloes were something that should have been kept strictly between the people directly involved. It should never have been brought up in the first place, and it never would have been had it not been that Monica was a blabbermouth, Linda Tripp was an opportunistic gossip and a damned poor friend to Monica, and the Right Wing character assassins were just waiting for something—anything—to use against the Clintons. They were desperate for something because the Whitewater thing had gon south on them. It turned out that rather than cheating people as the Righties claimed, the Cllntons lost $60,000 on what turned out to be a bum real estate deal—they got scammed themselves. Clinton was a damned fool on a couple of counts: he should have kept his fly zipped in the first place, and after the fact, when the Righties started their feeding-frenzy, he should have refused to answer anything about it, saying that his private life—as long as it didn't interfere with his job, which it didn't—was nobody's goddam business!

There's a very simple reason that people like Susu's Hubby keep bringing this up:   It's all they've got!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Tam the man
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:39 AM

he's a dickhead


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: GUEST,G
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 07:26 AM

This thread is going down the dumper
Ron, you still attack the poster on a personal basis - why not attack the contents of the post?

And to give a reason why I think this thread is in deep doo doo.......
ready? I am going to agree with Mr. Bobert but will only admit to this one item; in his post @ 10:31 PM last night, he said it "ain't no government anymore" Amen! Just don't get carried away folks and think there is more I agree with.

Am I a Conserative? Pretty much in some respects - very moderate with regard to social issues. My take: It is not the fault of Bush overall, it is the system. One big group in DC who have lost sight of the Constitution and spend all their time (and our money) 'buying votes. Of course, they "buy" the money of special interest groups by returning favors. When did it start? To a small degree, probably 200 years ago. But there were always a group of the good guys to keep it under control. Now, there are still 'good' guys involved but they have lost sight of their reason for being there.
Yes, I voted for Bush. I now have another reason for the knot in my stomach and that is the massive amount of $ going to New Orleans. Some is needed, I grant you, but there are parts of Mississippi that are far more devastated.
This has ben the practice of the politicians for years - throw tons of money at it! And don't try to blame all this on GWB. It is the system, both sides of the aisle, career politicians with many having no concept of what it is to be employed outside the realm of politics.

Now evaluate the following and let have it if you so desire;
I am worn out from the government maintaining such a large percentage of the population. Help when needed is fine and required. But, while should many poor schmucks like myself pay taxes, send kids to college w/o government assistance, give generously to charities, work for charitable organizations only to see where the most corrupt state in the nation is going to be completely bailed out, including those who have lived on the government dole forever (Both white and black).

The lump in the gut grows larger. It got its' start when tens of thousands of us ended losing our retirement accounts due to the Feds watching things like Waco, Microsoft and other noneventful things. All the while, the lack of regulation and watchfulness from Federal agencies allowed the CEOs and their underlings to financilly ruin the very thing they had built with the help of stockholders.


Okay, I am rambling - we must take care of people when disasters happen but I am of the opinion that Enron, Global Crossing and others were equally disasterous to another group that adds up up to hundreds of thousands of US citizens. Why some of you are so hateful towards Bush amazes me. It is the system and until we accept that fact, the fighting goes on between us while the Dems and Repubs, if you can find a delinination, go about the business of "government" as they define it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:17 AM

Sorry Guest G--

I have attacked Hubby's sources, and stated that if he believes his ABC interviews exonerate Mr. Bush in the eyes of most New Orleans citizens for his unconscionable dilatory first response to the crisis, he is mistaken. Everybody agrees that Bush's recent speech said a lot of the right things about restoring New Orleans.

However, a few points.

1) The proof of the pudding......

2) Bush now claims that there will be no taxes raised to pay for the proposed $200 billion project he cites--that it will all come from cuts in the federal budget. This in addition to the continuing war in Iraq (isn't that about $1 billion per day?), the new Medicare drug program, and of course, the sacrosanct tax cuts ( of which even more are proposed). As Amos has pointed out, this goes LBJ's "guns and butter" dilemma one better. Would you mind enlightening us as to where the $200 billion will in fact come from?   (Of course it will also be done without raising interest rates or alarming our Chinese and other foreign creditors.) I await your response with eager anticipation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:23 AM

One more thing. When the Wall St Journal puts on its masthead "Combating Conservative Media Bias", Bushites will be free to use the source Hubby quoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

It's somewhat interesting...

Though everyone seems hell-bent on disbelieving guest974 on the basis that he hasn't shared his sources, Azizi (whose sources nobody questioned) shared statistics that: 1. more or less confirmed the direction of Guest974's assertion -- that the poverty levels are down over those of the '90s, and 2. obfuscate the issue by bringing in a red herring -- how many have health insurance.

The health insurance issue is a useful tool to use as a rhetorical weapon, but as a statistic it not specific enough to use as a "poverty gauge". There are too many reasons, other than poverty, that folks don't have health insurance that is statistically counted. In fact, I have seen statistics made to look as though folks like me are not covered by health insurance because, 1. I am not covered by an employer, and 2. I am not covered by a traditional policy -- I have a high deductable medical savings account.

Poverty in the US is also statistically interesting. For instance, when it was politically advantageous for government to implement more gov't programs to deal with hunger, the US changed it's definition of "hunger" to include anyone who feared they might at one time become hungry. When that happened, magically the US suddenly had as many going "hungry" as the third world.

I'm with GuestG on this one, at least -- the government continues to grow -- Republican or Democrat -- because we have collectively bought into such a mind-set that accepts that we always need our gov't to do something more -- we judge our elected official on the basis of what they've "done" (read: what new programs they've implememted -- how much money they've spent, or promise to spend on us).

I think there is a HUGE unrepresented middle who strongly believes that government is big enough -- it just needs to be executed better. We don't need one more program -- the programs in place are sufficient if they were just run better.

And I think that that wished for, but unfulfilled middle helps explain why the left and the right are so vehemently tugging toward their ends. I think that if the right could be assured that the left didn't want to grow more and more and more gov't (just throw more money at problems).......and the left could be convinced that the right doesn't want to UNDO any current programs, we might finally get to the useful process of electing officials -- not for promises of new spending, but for promises (and fulfillment) of making the system, as is, work better -- not for their "good intentions", but for their good stewardship -- for ideas that prove workable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

Ah yes, one more thing. Guest G, be sure to check Carol's post of 16 Sept 2005 3:51 PM on the "Outraged" thread, re: sources and the "2000 busses" canard (look it up). Somehow I believe the New Orleans Times-Picayune may know more about the number of busses available than the Washington Times does. However the Washington Times et al. should at least know their mentor Herr Goebbels would be proud of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM

OK John--

Where do you think the $200 billion will come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:46 AM

GUEST G,

I'm worn out from governemnt giving so much of my hard earned tax dollars to their corporate bed buddies...

I'd rather see my dough go to the folks who need it...

And I'd like to see CEO's jailed fir off-shore tax sheleters...

And while we are at it, given the enormous demands on the federal governemnt, I'd like to see Bush's tax cuts rescended and for America getting back to something closer to pay-as-you-go...

No, bankrolling the Iraq war, the corporate give-aways and now Katrina it'd be real nice if the current crop of Americans pitch in rather than mortgaging the next crop's with loans from the Chinese and Europeans... This is not a fiscal policy that resembles anything that the Republican Party has ever stood for... Yet, soupposed self-professed "conservatives" don't seem to have any problem with it??? Like what's this all about???

Bobert

p.s. Can you answer this without blaming Bill Clinton... Hey, I din't like him too much either but Bush has had the job long ebough to stand up to the plate all by his own self, without crutch's, without tarining wheels and with out the "Clinton made me do it" laim excuse for policies that have nuthing to do with an administartion which has been outtta power for going on 6 years now...


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:52 AM

New Orleans might just be teaching us something new about our care for the poorest among us.

For the longest time, because we all could feel a sense of "there but for the grace of random acts of evolution go I", we have tried to set up programs that cared for the poor without trying to pass any kind of judgement on why they might be poor.

We know that the poor's worth as humanity is no less than ours, but we confuse passing judgement on behavior with passing judgement on worth. Because of that, we don't want to accept that there might be any reason other than luck that some are poor and some are rich.

But New Orleans has at least hinted that we need to revisit those well-meaning notions.

We may have to start to accept that those who are unable to adequately provide for themselves are highly likely to be likewise unable to care for themselves. The days of implemementing more programs to just feed, clothe, and give them an income are going to have to be re-analyzed. We are going to have to look at ways to better care for them that accepts their inability to deal with any circumstance with any degree of self-reliance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Tam the man
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:05 AM

there's photo of George bush and he's looking a map of America and he's saying to this man "where's america"


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:12 AM

You know the poster of this thread fell for the oldest trick in the political playbook.

Here is how it works.

At the start/FIRST DAY of Clinton's term one takes the number/statistic regarding poverty, education etc. of their choice.

Then you take the the corresponding numbers at the START/first day of the GWB term.

VOILA ! my goodness look at all the good GWB has done (roll eyes)


It goes to show you that well intentioned people looking at the statistics are fooled. For that you should be angry at the lie and not a person like myself for pointing out the inner workings of propoganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:25 AM

Ron,

RE: $200,000,000

I would be the most unpopular man in America. The federal government did not build New Orleans in the first place. Bush heaped a load of stupidity upon the already inept handling of New Orleans in the first place. He should not have offered to rebuild New Orleans. It is proof that he does not have the mind of a conservative that he even offered. Were he truly a conservative, he would have beleived in New Orleans' capability to rebuild itself upon sound economic principles.

I would not, as president, offer to rebuild any city that I could not likewise offer anywhere else in America -- if San Fransisco or St Louis were destroyed by earthquake, Miami by like hurricane, Indianapolis by a tornado, or Omaha by sheer insipidity -- or, evolution forbid, all of those events happened at once.

The fed is good at doling out $$ to care for temporary needs. Every city was built by every city and history. And every city's reason for existance is tied to its geography, natural resources, etc.

It is such a 21st century American notion of "instant gratification" that thinks that New Orleans can be instantly rebuilt anyway. It flies in the face of history and reason.

Geographically, NO has been living on borrowed time anyway (I was first built above sea level). If some businesses want to go back into that locale and rebuild for sound economic reasons then let them have at it -- sans US fed money.

What Bush has essentially promised is a city that will be raised on the government dole -- forever to remain that way. If there are nt sound economic reasons for rebuilding, then all the US back loans offered in the emotion of the moment will forever go unretired.

But try to say that as an American politician. Americans think that money is the answer to everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: GUEST,G
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:34 AM

John Hardly - as you are probably, the New Orleans "pocket of poverty" which equates more to the size of a suitecase, is not limited to that city. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, Tampa and others are just as bad. The Great Society has failed.

Bobert, can't blame WJC but we also can't give GWB the credit. This has been festering for decades with the last 4 decades contributing the most.

And, Bobert, rescending the Bush tax cuts WILL NOT ensure a pay as you go. Too many don't pay now. The tax cuts were across the board for all but I will agree to one thing. The rich did benefit more as they were paying the lions share of the taxes to begin with.
How is that.......5% of the population pay well over half of the taxes collected while the bottom 50% pay 0%.
By the way, are you aware that the Feds intake of tax dollars is higher than it was before the tax cuts?

THE PROBLEM IS GOVERNMENT IS BROKEN (not for them, but for us).


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Alice
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

******How is that.......5% of the population pay well over half of the taxes collected while the bottom 50% pay 0%.******

Because the bottom is struggling to keep a roof overhead and pay the heating and grocery bill and have money to take the bus while the top has reaped the cream of education and opportunity and/or inheritance to own multiple mansions, fleets of cars and can eat filet mignon every day if they want to. Many of the wealthy who have risen from poverty have no complaint about paying more taxes, because they know with the means they have it is important to support education, infrastructure and security in our country in a way that they could not when they were poor. It is interesting that people who are anti-government, anti-taxes don't see that the government is us, that we should be collectively creating and maintaining our country to the best of our ability to contribute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:04 AM

Sell New Orleans Municipal Bonds with the same push that the Red Cross advertises for $.


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:32 AM

You are all now voicing opinion and not fact.

I very carefully chose what I posted because it seemed to come from sources that were either those of the US government itself or from another country.

There were far, far more sources, but I rejected them because they were various causes or "think tanks" of one sort or another. (I also rejected those in pdf, mostly because I didn't want to be bothered with opening and closing Adobe Acrobat Reader -- if you'd like a detailed search, done on my own time, I'll PM you my billable and it ain't cheap.) You might try a search with the terms (including the quotation marks) "poverty in US" or "US economic indicators" or similar things.

What I find interesting is that while unemployment is, overall, down, so are average wages and benefits while borrowing AT ALL LEVELS is up, up, up.

If you want to worry a bit, check out the real estate bubble. Check how many people have 'interest only' mortgages. Check out the load of debt each person in the US is carrying -- personal debt, I'll leave the federal debt out of this -- and compare it to the level of savings. Do this for the last five or ten years, and then do the same thing for the late 1920s as best you can.

Compare the numbers of students who graduated from college last year in math, engineering, chemistry, physics, computer science, and biology with the number of those who graduated in those areas in China and India.

The problem in the US isn't a lack of will or innate ability. The problem in the US is a refusal to think -- because education has consistently refused, for at least three decades, to teach students how to do so.

And very soon now all of these chickens will be coming home to roost....


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Subject: RE: BS: Facts about Bush just facts
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:04 AM

This is a fact...
the oldest trick in the political playbook.

Here is how it works.

At the start/FIRST DAY of Clinton's term one takes the number/statistic regarding poverty, education etc. of their choice.

Then you take the the corresponding numbers at the START/first day of the GWB term.

VOILA ! my goodness look at all the good GWB has done




this is an opinion...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushques.jpg


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