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Chippenham FF UK 2005

GUEST,guest 25 Jun 05 - 06:44 PM
The Shambles 04 Jun 05 - 05:18 AM
Richard Atkins 03 Jun 05 - 09:46 PM
GUEST 03 Jun 05 - 02:53 PM
fiddler 03 Jun 05 - 01:30 PM
HipflaskAndy 03 Jun 05 - 01:02 PM
alanww 03 Jun 05 - 10:54 AM
The Shambles 03 Jun 05 - 08:53 AM
Snuffy 03 Jun 05 - 08:47 AM
John MacKenzie 03 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM
Leadfingers 03 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM
The Shambles 03 Jun 05 - 08:19 AM
Dave Earl 03 Jun 05 - 04:26 AM
The Admiral 03 Jun 05 - 04:06 AM
Polly Squeezebox 02 Jun 05 - 06:22 PM
alanww 02 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM
The Shambles 02 Jun 05 - 01:56 PM
manitas_at_work 02 Jun 05 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 02 Jun 05 - 11:15 AM
HipflaskAndy 02 Jun 05 - 09:44 AM
The Admiral 02 Jun 05 - 08:47 AM
Snuffy 02 Jun 05 - 08:42 AM
HipflaskAndy 02 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM
manitas_at_work 02 Jun 05 - 08:33 AM
Leadfingers 02 Jun 05 - 06:25 AM
Leadfingers 02 Jun 05 - 06:24 AM
The Shambles 02 Jun 05 - 05:45 AM
manitas_at_work 02 Jun 05 - 04:20 AM
Dave Earl 02 Jun 05 - 04:12 AM
The Admiral 02 Jun 05 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 02 Jun 05 - 02:37 AM
Manitas_at_home 01 Jun 05 - 06:37 PM
Hawker 01 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM
John MacKenzie 01 Jun 05 - 09:20 AM
The Shambles 01 Jun 05 - 09:11 AM
John MacKenzie 01 Jun 05 - 09:02 AM
Snuffy 01 Jun 05 - 08:43 AM
manitas_at_work 01 Jun 05 - 06:51 AM
The Shambles 01 Jun 05 - 06:27 AM
Hovering Bob 01 Jun 05 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,Mo Bradshaw 01 Jun 05 - 06:21 AM
GRex 01 Jun 05 - 04:17 AM
fiddler 01 Jun 05 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 01 Jun 05 - 02:32 AM
Manitas_at_home 01 Jun 05 - 02:05 AM
Bonecruncher 31 May 05 - 08:52 PM
fiddler 31 May 05 - 05:40 PM
Sue the Borderer 31 May 05 - 05:36 PM
Liz the Squeak 31 May 05 - 04:28 PM
The Shambles 31 May 05 - 03:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:44 PM

Interesting thread,

If you need more venue's for informal get-togethers.......

....The Rose and Crown "Barn" is available for any informal sessions after programed events on fri, sat , sun , monday evenings.

The Rose & Crown are proud to be a part of the Chippenham Folk Festival,
and Welcome all regulars and new comers.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:18 AM

The lack of officially programed informal sessions in the evening is probably because the Chippenham Folk Festival organisers would prefer that folk attended the ticketed events........

This is probably understandable but it does not prevent folk from making their own arrangements with licensees etc. That an informal session appears in a programme and at certain times - does not alter the nature and the conventions of these events - which is really decided by those attending the sessions and those in charge of the venue - rather than the fesival organisers.

The other factor is that some pubs have their regular weekend night gigs. That was certainly the case with the Bar Reva - where there was a new (programmed) Extra Session held during the lunchtime peak but where continuation of this session into the evening - would not have been possible. Perhaps the Bar Reva would be prepared in future to hold (non-programmed) evening sessions? Although the acoustics in there were really poor and the music was easily drowned-out by the background noise from only the few afternoon drinkers and would only be worse on a full weekend night.

Also pubs do change over time and the 'poshing-up' of The Angel is a good example. This was used for all sorts of informal get-togethers and I am not sure that the loss of this venue in recent years - has really been replaced.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:46 PM

Missed Chippers for the first time in 16 Years . Brill sings lunchtime and thats it for singers ,no venue in the evening hence my reason not to go. Mudgather at Banbury worked , I think Chippernham needs one.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:53 PM

I don't play and can't sing, I just enjoy a bit of entertainment with a pint, so I'm fairly impartial.
Nobody seems to be considering the practicalities and maths involved in this argument.
I had a look in the barn at the rose and crown, there were 20 or 30 people playing at the same time, enjoying getting through a number of tunes together.
For the same number of people to have sung two or three songs each it would have taken hours to get through.
How many pubs do the singers expect to be programmed for them so they can perform several times each ? Shanty crews are very good at getting a whole room joining in, but a lot of individual singers seem to think they have a right to be admired without thinking about what everyone else would like. If they find a pub and buy their beer, they should be able to attract a decent number of people to join them if they are entertaining enough.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: fiddler
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:30 PM

I'm begining to think you all ought to get out more!


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:02 PM

Snuffy's point is spot on...

'if sufficient singarounds (or a sympathetic venue to "do your own thing") were available, then you would not get tune sessions and Folk Club venues invaded by singarounders desperate for a quick fix of singing.'

...but...

I feel like no one read my previous post. perhaps it was too long for most to bother reading? Let me condense it some...
According to the official programme.....
Evenings in the rooms of the Old Road Tavern, with the exception of the scheduled Friday night session, were NOT timetabled in the programme for 'playing' sessions, Irish or otherwise.
The rooms were fair game for ANYONE to sing, play or ANYTHING reasonable - the very 'sympathetic venue to "do your own thing"' - that Snuffy mentions.
Why moan that someone sang (any number of songs!)?
Why STILL insist the music going on in there should have exclusively been playing only?
I just don't get it! Exasperated - HFA


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: alanww
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:54 AM

Oh dear, with my previous posting I seem to have created some unintended assumptions from other Mudcatters!
In no way had I intended to criticise you Admiral! Within the rules you were operating, I thought you did as good a job as could be done. In fact, I thanked you for contributing to my enjoyable weekend!
And no, Dave I don't expect to sing at every folk club-formatted session I attend!
And I wasn't intending to suggest that the obviously-popular folk club format should be ditched for the singaround format.
What I was suggesting was that there is room for both and, as the singarounders seem to have been unsuccessful finding such an all-day venue, perhaps the festival organisers could help them next year, in addition to providing the popular 12 noon to 2 pm session at The Rose & Crown.
"Abroad for pleasure...!.
Alan


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:53 AM

Yes we do like unaccompannied singing but we also like accompanied singing and unaccompanied tunes. What's wrong with mixing them - it seems to me that some people have climbed up on on their high horses and can't see the ground from where they are, they certainly aren't listening to any of the arguments. Do they really want to live in a world where tunes are in one venue and songs in another? I don't! Vive la difference!

I hope others agree when I come next year and insist on playing my banjo sets in the singaround....*Smiles*

The issue was really a very specific one but perhaps a general response toward the idea of mixed sessions would be helpful.

As a player and a singer - I tend to agree. For many of the very best sessions I have attended have been mixed affairs. But these are usually happy accidents - when a small group of individuals (usually unknown to each other) - find themselves making music together.

But at festivals - where there are many people wanting to play - although is still a place for such events - surely it does make perfect sense to cater for specific types of informal music-making and their different requirements?

If you have say 4 pubs willing to host infomal session - and specify (loosely) the nature of what each pub is hosting - this should be enough to cater for most tastes.

Singing (even informally) is about performance more than it is about participation. Tune sessions are more about participation than they are about performance. It is quite wrong to think (as I feel many singers do) that a tune session is just a song session with tunes. A whole different set of social and musical conventions apply - which may not be immediately clear and may - on a shallow look - seem to be a free-for-all.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:47 AM

Concerts and Folk Clubs and Singarounds are different animals, and long may they all flourish.

I think the point is that if sufficient singarounds (or a sympathetic venue to "do your own thing") were available, then you would not get tune sessions and Folk Club venues invaded by singarounders desperate for a quick fix of singing.

And everyone would be happier.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

On the face of it this seems like a very petty argument, however not having been there makes it difficult to judge. I do wonder if Roger would have objected so much if these 3 or 4 songs he keeps mentioning had all been done by different people. In other words was it really the person who sang the songs, and/or the songs he/she sang to which he objects?
Giok.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM

In my experience , ANY licenced premises that are happy to have music
in their Pub , Bar , or Restuarant as part of the Festival is only too pleased to have informal things going on after the 'organised ' bits have finished . The Newt at sidders has 'Us' from about twelve til three and eightish til closing , but there are always other musicians and singers dropping in and out all day - Have a beer or two , play a tune or three ! This appeared to be the way with the Old Road Tavern , with a nice mix of stuff going on all the time in various rooms as well as in the garden !


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:19 AM

What are we doing it for anyway? Not our own egos surely!

I can now see the attraction for some - of finding a session tolerant enough to accept the same individual singing 3 or 4 songs.

Perhaps a little bit of history will be helpful and show the way forward and also partly explain why Steve's Irish session is the way it is and why many are very loyal to it and its tolerant approach.

The situation some years back, was similar to the one that singers seem to find themselves in now - not enough venues or none at the right time. Steve and few others started the Irish Session to address this problem - with great success - but it was only later that this Irish session incorporated into the Festival proper.

Perhaps that is the way foward? Those who wish to have a place where they could drop-in and sing at any point over the 4 days - could find a pub (and garden) where the licensee (like the one now at the Old Road Tavern) would be prepared to provide this?

Perhaps the old home of the Irish session - now the Gladstone Arms - would be willing to play host to this over the weekend? The current licencees do seem to be keen to be part of the fesival now - and I notice that it is now a site for dancing.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:26 AM

I agree with Tony (Admiral).

I dont expect to be asked to sing every time I attend a session/club.

Even as a Resident I don't get to sing every week at my club - we have a rule of thumb that says residents step in to fill blanks in the proceedings. For example if we have a lot of "floor" singers maybe only the chair person for the night will get a song to start the show then floor singers will carry on until the "guest" is on.

I know other clubs work differently and whatever system they use probably works for them. The point is (and I said this earlier) everyone at the session knows how it works and accepts the plan.

What are we doing it for anyway? Not our own egos surely!

Dave Earl


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Admiral
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:06 AM

Alan, we had this conversation outside 'The Cause' late on Sunday night and I'm afraid that my opinion hasn't changed. Pearl and I have been running the Folk Clubs on Friday and Saturday nights at Chippers for a long time and we have always tried to be scrupulously fair about the sessions. I think that I have only been allowed to perform in Pearl's club twice over the years and that was only to help her out of a spot and vice versa, Pearl has rarely done anything in 'my' club, for all that we are both there well before the event starts (!).
As for one singer, one song round the room, yes, we could do that but then it would be a singaround and not a Folk Club and I think that there will always be a need for an event that allows ten minutes or so per spot for a performer to expound or expand into rather than the hustle of a sing. I don't think that Chippers is any different from any other Festival in that the performers list for the Folk Club is always going to be longer than the time allotted (ask Bob and Gill - they run the Folk Clubs at Towersey!) and without Dr Who nothing will change that! On both Friday and Saturday nights, the Singers List was over full before the evening started.
I understand the 'hunger' to perform but there should also be an understanding amongst all would be performers at the Folk Club that there is a very good chance that you won't get on so you might as well relax into it and enjoy the diversity of those who do and (of course) the Guests.
I think Pearl would join me in saying that we both immensely enjoyed the events that we ran over the weekend (at least I managed to get everybody on in the Sings this year!) and would like to thank all those who attended and added to the atmosphere of all the sessions - performers or not...


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:22 PM

Keep the thread going and I'll print it off and give a copy to Bob and Gill at folk club in Devizes next Monday night.

Polly


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: alanww
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM

I am a singer (unaccompanied and accompanied with a concertina) and a musician, including for morris but I didn't do any of that at the festival. Generally I did enjoy Chippenham FF and thanks to The Admiral & Pearl, to Kitty and to those who organised the English Music sessions for doing their part with that!
It was just unfortunate that again(!) this year all these three events clashed every day - 12 noon to 2 pm was a very busy time!
I counted over 60 musicians at one stage crowding into the Rose & Crown Barn for one of the music sessions and, as has already been mentioned, the community of English musicians did off their own backs collonise The New Inn as a home for all other times of the day. Well done them and I believe the sessions must have added something positive to the festival!
But us unaccompanied and accompanied singers were not so cute! We didn't manage to find ourselves appropriate venue(s) for singing at times other than 12 noon to 2 pm.
As an illustration, the evening folk club sessions at The Cause had an hour of guests per night out of three with the rest of the time for floor spots. So each evening I arrived early, put my name down for a two-song spot early enough to be included. But in practice, while I attended a total of about 10 hours, I got a total of just two songs over the three evenings. I tend not to make a big issue about such things - c'est la vie! - but my partner was upset because the chairs made her back hurt and, if she had known in advance, she wouldn't have come so much to support me...
Perhaps there is also room for a venue for ordinary (mixed accompanied and unaccompanied) singaround with no guests and one song per person round the room? Seems a bit radical, I know!
All this discussion has suggested to me that there is a significant issue here, which should be considered by the organisers for next year!
1 Do any of us even know that the organisers are aware of it?
2 Have they read this thread?
3 If not, could anyone close to them let them know there is an issue?
4 If they have read it, what are their views?
Perhaps they are unaware that so many people who attend their festival have a first love of song or music, rather than dance?
"... when I heard of some ringing, some dancing and singing ...!"
Alan


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 01:56 PM

You accuse others of imposing their tastes on a session but won't stand to be accused of wanting to do the same.

The issue is less about the singing of songs at this session. It is a question of who sings the occasional song and about imposing this individual's need to repeatedly sing in this session - before the needs of those of the rest of the session.

For yes, perhaps in truth similar critism could be levelled at someone who insisted on starting every set and did not leave any space for anyone else. But even if that criticism could be levelled with any justification at me or indeed you - at least the rest of the session would have the choice to join in and play with us.

When it is the same singer who decides they will be the one to sing more than the occassional song - not only are they depriving other singers of the chance to sing the occasional song - the rest of the session members must put down their instruments and wait until the song ends.

The lack of more direct control - customary at other sessions - (the increase in this being a course that has been suggested here) is one of the main attractions of playing in Irish sessions. It is this easy - going and tolerant approach that I feel is in danger of being taken advantage of here - rather than there being any real need or wish to change this tolerant approach.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:49 AM

Roger,

Now you are being silly. You accuse others of imposing their tastes on a session but won't stand to be accused of wanting to do the same.

I don't think anyone was imposing their tastes on a session, they were singing songs.

Again, the session was not a tunes only session it was an Irish music session. Music includes singing, how can it not do so?

Did you know there are some people that get a bit peeved when sets of slides or hornpipes are played? There are some I think get annoyed when anything other than reels are played. I haven't seen anyone writing here that too many slides are being played in sessions.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:15 AM

I expect that the singers' expectation was that a few songs was acceptable and I think they were right. After all, we are not talking wall-to-wall choruses, 50 verse ballads or interminable parodies but a few traditional songs sung by people who were also there as instrumentalists.

Paul that is your view. I know that it was not a general one and I hope you would agree that a good session is a delcate balance and it would be a shame if this move towards regular singers - were to lead to conflict and these sessions becoming less than they have been as a result?

For my concern is less for what has gone - which cannot be changed - but for the future. As has been pointed out - there is room for other forms of music - in the bar (sometimes in the barn) and in the garden.

Your accusation that it is I that wish to impose my tastes upon this session by playing tunes with fellow session members who have attended to also play tunes - is frankly very silly. Perhaps this accusation may have some justification - if next year I also decide that I will treat this session to a song - immediately after one is inflicted and urge others to also do this - if doing this considered a right? This would quickly result in a quite different session and if other posters are correct - there is nothing that Steve could do about it......

There is no need for this to escalate - if folk accept the limitations of what form a session is intended to take and respect the wishes of their fellow session members. Problems only occur when this respect is not shown and personal needs are thought to be more important than the session's requirements. The occasional song may indeed be acceptable - but why not leave who sings it and when (or if it is sung at all) - to the session's leader?


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:44 AM

Shambles also infers the Old Road rooms were for players sessions and not singers only in the evening - which, with the exception of the Friday as stated above, in the official programme, they were not.
I'm with you Admiral! HFA


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Admiral
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:47 AM

Wine and Whiskey?! What a silly analogy! Yes we do like unaccompannied singing but we also like accompanied singing and unaccompanied tunes. What's wrong with mixing them - it seems to me that some people have climbed up on on their high horses and can't see the ground from where they are, they certainly aren't listening to any of the arguments. Do they really want to live in a world where tunes are in one venue and songs in another? I don't! Vive la difference!


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:42 AM

I don't often agree with Shambles, but in this case I must. Singers (and instrumentalists) should be aware of the "feel" of the event.

I very rarely attend tune sessions, and would never dream of singing in one (unless invited to). I have been to plenty mixed sessions where singers and instrumentalists happily co-exist and listen attentively to each other. But at too many of them one side or the other decides they want to talk noisily while the "other lot" are performing.

Shambles asked why the singers didn't go to the places provided. The simple answer is that a few places were provided between noon & 2pm and after 11pm. These were usually oversubscribed but between 2 and 11pm the places provided were mostly in Chester, Cleethorpes, etc.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

Right, just sat with a highlighter pen and a Chippenham programme through my lunch break at work to get to the actual facts.
Where can the casual folkie sing or play at this fine fest?

Inspection of the official programme reveals the only organised singing sessions – two of them each day from 2.00 till 4.00 – clash with one another.
Then there's the Festival 'Folk Club' in the Cause Hall from 20.30 to 23.00 Fri/Sat/Sun only – where one can wait in turn for a spot – singing OR playing presumably. (I have attended these past two years and staying ALL night MIGHT bag you one song – occasionally two for the duration).
There are no other organised 'singing' sessions I can see other than one three-quarter-hour late night run through of organised ('led') chorus songs in the Cause Auditorium.

As for 'playing'.
The ONLY scheduled EVENING Irish Session at the Old Road Tavern ( led by Steve Morris) appears to be timetabled for 20.00 to 23.00 on the Friday in the official programme - and on no other evening!
Yes, there are more similar Irish sessions scheduled on the Sat, Sun & Mon for that venue – but all of them from 12.00 noon to 14.00
And, just like the singing sessions, the 'Extra' playing sessions in the Bar Reva, or the 'English' one in the Rose & Crown Barn all clash with the afternoon Irish sessions too.

The 'offending' party referred to, Mr Russell, worked hard on the Music Room's Stand, all day long, each day - thus being unable to attend ALL the organised singing sessions AND all the playing sessions except the Friday night session at the Old Road Tavern. Did he sing during that session on the Friday night?
Or was it on Sat, Sun or Monday evenings?
If that was the case, why then would anyone deny him a chance to both sing and play along with anybody and everybody else equally entitled, over a beer in a pub room where no officially organised event was happening?

The only other official entry in the programme for the Old Road Tavern on an evening was the Stick and Bucket competition.
At ALL OTHER TIMES the pub in question was open to all comers – to drink and make merry - in the side rooms and garden – in whatever fashion they saw fit – be it reciting poetry, singing, playing – all on an equal footing.
For anyone to suggest they in effect 'owned' the territory and deny any other their right to 'party' on equal footing in the situation, seems a wee bit off kilter.

Personally, we took our instruments up to the Old Road on the Friday evening for a 'sing' and found not only the 'official' session indoors, but a second playing session going on in the garden. We never unpacked our instruments, but supped beer and listened instead.
On returning on the Sat eve, there was no music happening in the garden on our arrival - so out came our instruments, so we sang round a table there for a good long while - leaving many musical spaces, should anyone else want to strike up also.
Just a little tolerance required, eh?
Cheers! HFA


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:33 AM

But Roger, perhap it's you that wishes to impose his chosen tipple on others.

I walked into the session and saw, apart from loads of banjos and bodhrans (grin), two singers. And guess what? They sang!

I expect that the singers' expectation was that a few songs was acceptable and I thinnk they were right. After all, we are not talking wall-to-wall choruses, 50 verse ballads or interminable parodies but a few traditional songs sung by people who were also there as instrumentalists.

I repeat - the session was not pitched as a tunes only session it was pitched as an Irish music session and music includes song. The pub sells beer AND wine.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:25 AM

100 !!!


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:24 AM

I am also a great believer in Mixed Sessions - The New Tavern in Sidders has always been MOSTLY tunes of ALL sorts , but does include a LOT of Songs (Again of ALL sorts) . I muck about with a number of instruments , sometimes accompnay myself and sometimes sing unaccompanied ! There ought to be acceptance of ALL at a session in my book !


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:45 AM

Wine is nice to drink and so is whisky. The mixing the two in the same glass would always be a minority taste - and as such perhaps the attempt to impose this upon those who go into a wine bar - to drink wine - should not be made and the wishes of those who like wine or whisky - should be respected?

Whatever the billing - I think it would be fair to say that the majority of those who attend Steve's sessions would not feel themselves deprived if there was not even one song in that session during the whole weekend. Some of these players travel a long way to attend this session and may not be prepared to do this in future.

If you should then walk in to this session and see 2 pipers, 3 banjo players 3 fiddlers, 2 box players, 2 flute/whistles players and assorted bodhrans - in would be reasonable to think that they may have attended because they wish to play their instruments together - rather than have to put them down in order to allow you to sing........

If that is not enough convince the singer who wished to have their cake and eat it - or who wished to impose their chosen tipple of wine and whisky upon others - that insisting on imposing this taste upon others was not generally thought desirable - a guide could be taken from the example set by the playing of the leader of the session?

Perhaps the answer is (as has been the case until recent years) that a singer at some point - makes in known to the session leader - that they wish to sing - and the session leader can decide when (or indeed if) this song is introduced?

Now if I were to sing at the local session that I lead - I would be hardly surprised if others followed this example. I don't choose to set this example because there are two other sessions locally where singing is the sole object and this session is the only local session where tunes are the sole object.

As I have said - this is not a matter of what is right or wrong. It is a matter of practical realities and the recognition that every action has an effect. It is always sad when the wishes of one or two individuals affect or place at risk the enjoyment of the majority. If it (this session) is not broken - there is no need to fix it - especially where there are other festival sessions where singing is the sole object.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:20 AM

why do these singers not go to the places provided

Because they want singing AND playing?


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Dave Earl
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:12 AM

It seems to me that the people running sessions could take a little more direct control.

I am not a muscian and have occasionally "sat at the back" and seen the sort of thing that is annoying people around here. Similarly I have seen individual muscians take over and run into a number of different tunes. Maybe there are conventions but would "One singer/muso=one song/tune" type of rule work better?

This usually is what applies at the singarounds that I go to. At Club type events things need to be different to allow for Guest spots so not everybody in the room will get a chance to do their bit.

As I see it their are many ways of running sessions that all usually work it just requires all that participants need to understand the arrangements on the day/night and accept them.

Oh and by the way I had a great time at Chippers even though my stewarding prevented me from seeing some things and forced me to see some others - buts thats how my festival usually work out.

Dave Earl


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Admiral
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:42 AM

I still don't see why we can't have mixed sessions. P & I have been to some cracking singers / musicians sessions over the years in the Oxford / Oxfordshire area. Some might be suprised at this because I've been 'told' several times that musical instruments are banned from my sings - I have done no such thing. If you want to perform with an instrument then I encourage you to do so. All I ask is that you pay the respect to the next performer that you expect yourself. If you want to carry on normal conversation by shouting above the singers or musicians then go and find a football match to go to...


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:37 AM

Blame? How can you blame people for doing something that's not wrong?

Not sure that it is question of right or wrong but one of judgement and individual responsibility on the part of the singer. They must decide when the conventions and consideration of the concerns of fellow session members should take second place to their need to sing.

This can cause tension and the blame for this is due to the singer only. Any blame should not be placed on the Festival or onus placed on the session leader to prevent TOO much singing. Any of this second action would be too little and too late.

The singer has to decide if THEIR first song is adding anything to the session and if any subsequent songs from them are causing needless tension or depriving others. If they go ahead in spite of this - any blame for this is the singer's.

Perhaps someone will answer - why do these singers not go to the places provided - where singing is THE SOLE object and where their singing will cause no tension at all?


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:37 PM

Blame? How can you blame people for doing something that's not wrong? The singers in the Irish session did not go against the ethos of the session, it says Irish music in the program and not Irish tunes (only). Steve and Trish were there to keep things in order and if they had thought there was too much singing I'm sure they would have done something about it.

I'm not sure why there isn't more room for song sessions at Chippenham but it was pretty clear to me that few people wanted to carry on into the afternoon at the Rose and Crown. When I ran the Rose and Crown session with Tom Gilmour it was a mixed tune and song session and we carried on quite late and often ran an unprogrammed evening session before the pre-Legends crowd became too much to cope with. After that,in the evenings, we teamed up with Malc Gurnham, Pat, Rosie Daisley and others in the front bar of the Angel where there was room for mix of ballads and choruses,accompanied and unaccompanied. There was usually a quieter session in the back bar of the Angel and Tony and Pearl had their singarounds in the Bear. I believe stuff was also happening in two pubs further up the old London Road.

I know a few pubs have changed around but the Gladstone (formerly the Borough, the home of the Irish music session) and the Bar Reva apparently were interested in hosting stuff for folkies. I think the Little George was open again this year. The tune players always seem to find room, there were three simultaneous sessions at the Old Road Tavern and tunes at the New Inn, so I wonder if it's really a lack of
effort or organisation on the part of the singers these days.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Hawker
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM

Interesting thread! I wasn't there, but I go to a festival to enjoy myself, I am not too bothered if I don't get to sing, at most sing sessions, there are great chorus songs for people to join in with, I have been to fabulous sing arounds where I didn't get to lead the singing. I also play and have been to great sessions, both with and without singing. The concern about the gents toilets being invaded by ladies made me smile, I have been guilty of that myself in the past, but I did send my old man in first to avoid upsetting any sensitive males. It reminded me of Wadebridge festival of old, when the best sing around used to be in the gents loo on the camp site late at night, when the camp site was at the school, before the arrival of the portaloos, its amazing how many people you can get into a gents loo, and what great acoustics!!!!!!
Cheers, Lucy.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:20 AM

Roger I am fast coming to the conclusion that you are a whinging pedant!
G..


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:11 AM

A shortage of public Ladies toilets in a town - may be a problem.

The invasion of the Gentlemans toilets by desparate Ladies may solve the problem of the individual Ladies who had relieved themselves but does not really justify the invasion of the Gentlemens toilets and will just create a quite different problem.


If there really are not enough sessions for all those wishing to sing at Chippenham Folk Festival - the answer surely must be to create more - not to use this as excuse and justification for singers to invade and ignore the conventions of tune sessions?

But in all truth - this did not happen. It was only a very few who were taking advantage and that is where the blame should be placed.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:02 AM

Intolerance, selfishness and negativity seem to be some people's stock in trade, I don't know how they get to these festivals, but they always seem to leave in a huff, perhaps they came in one too. Don't get me started on the singers!
Giok


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:43 AM

Have a look in your programme Shambles, and tell us what song sessions singers should have been at instead of the Irish sessions.

There are precious few, and what there is is so oversubscribed that you may get to sing a song if you're there at the start, but it can't be guaranteed. And there do not seem to be many folk-friendly pubs for unscheduled sessions (unlike places like Upton or Bromyard).

I'll definitely be giving Chester a try next year


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:51 AM

As for playing tunes in song sessions, I have been asked to play in the Admiral and Pearl's session in the barn at Towersey even though I only went in to join in the chorus and listen. I'm sure it wasn't the quality of my playing but the fact that some sessions are more inclusive and less one-track than others.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:27 AM

Am looking forward to next year, but I do hope that there will be more song sessions.

Just come along to the Old Road Tavern and sing with the rest. *Smiles*

I am not sure that this particular problem is caused by the lack of alternative places to sing or by me having any need to complain. I go to play tunes in the Irish Session - not to sing there or to listen to anyone else singing there. If I wished to sing or listen to others singing - I would seek out a venue where I could do this without affecting the pleasure of others.

If the normal conventions were being followed (rather than being pushed to the limit) - there would be very little to complain about. If you have the courage (or the brass-neck) to keep giving your fellow session members the choice - (after inflicting your forth song of the evening on them ) - of trying somehow to stop you or just waiting for you to come to the end your current song - there is little hope.   

The (very) occasional song at any tune session is usually welcome - if only to give you a chance to go to the loo - but the same person insisting on singing a number of songs over a number of days - is not done with any "awareness of the flow of the session" but done in spite of this. In practice it also inhibits the 'occasional' song coming from others - (more considerate) - who may recognise that the quota of 'occasional' songs has been reached....

If this session was the only game in town - the occasional song would be more welcome but that is not the case here. So why do these singers not go to the sessions where singing is the object?
Is it because they would have to listen to other singers whilst waiting their turn to sing? Or not be able to sing more than one song? Or not stand-out so much and be so sure of everyone's attention and warm applause?


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:24 AM

A great Chippenham, from our point of view and I didn't run too many people down with my electric buggy, without which I couldn't have 'done' the festival this year.
On a personal note there was one down side to the event this year, but I've started a seperate thread on that.
I agree that there are always more things that you want to do than there is time for, and it was a shame that there was only 45 minutes set aside for Johnny, Kitty, Pearl & Tony.

A great Festival, congratulations to all involved and hope to see a lot of you on the 11th !!!

(still) Hovering Bob


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST,Mo Bradshaw
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:21 AM

It is only programmed as an Irish Music session for 2 hours, from 12 -2pm. Isn't the fact that there is Irish music continually until the wee small hours, interspersed with a few songs, sometimes from great singers, a bonus? Thanks to the landlord and landlady, also the pub regulars, and Steve and Tish for facilitating it, I say!


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GRex
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:17 AM

A truly great festival but doesn't the problem with singers stem from the fact that there aren't enough opportunities for them to sing.
I only managed to get three songs in in four days. Am looking forward to next year, but I do hope that there will be more song sessions.

KRex


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: fiddler
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:50 AM

Sgambles if that is a generalisation presented without emotion or agression I agree!

If not then lets all try and be a bit tolerant - something most folkies are known for. I think a song often breaks up a session and can slow down some of the I can play faster than you merchants!


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:32 AM

Do you really want to complain about the likes of Alistair Russell giving the occasional song.

Paul - I am sure that if you or I insisted on attending the song sessions and treating everyone to the occasional set of tunes - that many folk would complain.

Steve's session has been going for many years and the ocasional song (from anyone) has always been accepted and tolerated - as it continues to be. However in recent years I feel this has been taken advantage of by those who seem determined to attend and sing more than the occasional song and to encourage others to do this in spite of the obvious nature of this session.

Many of the attendees (including the session leader) would also like to sing - the fact that they usually do not - I feel should be respected by those who feel that they are the one's qualified and entitled to sing us not the occasional song but 3 or 4.

Why do these singers (including Alistair Russell) choose not to attend the sessions set up for songs?


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:05 AM

Roger,

People have often sung at the Irish session and it is accepted in Irish sessions much more than in English ones but it is never allowed to overwhelm the session. It's usually done with an awareness of the flow of the session. Do you really want to complain about the likes of Alistair Russell giving the occasional song.

I'm not even sure about this particular session being set aside for tunes - it's not actually billed as that. I'll have to ask Steve Morris what his intentions were.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:52 PM

One of the best Chippenham Festivals. Got to see many old friends and new faces.
Sorry if I missed nayone but I was a bit unwell.
Colyn.


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: fiddler
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:40 PM

Isn't it good for singer to see musicians and musicians to see singers (and hear in both cases) Many (true) Irish sessions contain both as do many after tour sessions - I've even sung dubliners stuff in Germany (as that is all the Swedes wanted!) as well as played at the same session.

Everything in moderation can be damm good fun - Just like Chippers this year!

Andy


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Sue the Borderer
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:36 PM

In reply to the post from The Shambles - There are some really good singing sessions - but they do seem to clash with each other or to be on the short side, and don't always get round to everyone who wants to sing. .... But that doesn't give anyone an excuse for behaving badly. It is a great shame when people ruin sessions or singarounds by making lots of noise, particularly if they are singers or musicians themselves and really should know better.

Thanks to The Admiral for letting us extend the lunchtime sing in the Rose and Crown. The numbers did go down but I think the people who stayed on (or chanced upon it by accident) really enjoyed it. I hope we can do it again next year (and, Kitty, I will contact Bob and Gill direct to suggest this and hopefully publicise it so more people would be aware of it.)

I had a great weekend! See you all next year.

Sue


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:28 PM

Manitas made it back this afternoon... he took the pretty way home and is an interesting shade of red.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 May 05 - 03:19 PM

It didn't rain - and we brought all the water proof gear! On the Bank Holiday Monday - there were even folk sitting on the grass down by the river in the sunshine. Very strange...

Another strange thing is the need for some people to insist on singing now in Chippenham sessions set aside for the playing of tunes and the surprising good nature in which this singing is received by those who go to play their instruments and who are 'shushed' to enable this singing to be inflicted upon them.

Are there not enough places for folk to sing at the Festival and if there are thought to be - why do certain people not go to these and use these to sing in? The folk I have in mind not only have the bad manners to talk, laugh and roar loudly througout the playing of the tunes - but seem to expect perfect silence for their song and to be applauded (even for their 4th inflicted song of the evening).


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