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BS: Re the Mudcat

Peace 22 May 05 - 10:11 PM
GUEST,kendall 22 May 05 - 07:50 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 May 05 - 07:36 AM
George Papavgeris 22 May 05 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 22 May 05 - 03:35 AM
GUEST 22 May 05 - 03:01 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 May 05 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,brucie 22 May 05 - 01:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 May 05 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,brucie 21 May 05 - 11:22 PM
dwditty 21 May 05 - 10:15 PM
Joe Offer 21 May 05 - 09:51 PM
Peace 21 May 05 - 07:33 PM
DougR 21 May 05 - 07:31 PM
The Shambles 21 May 05 - 07:31 PM
Clinton Hammond 21 May 05 - 04:33 PM
kendall 21 May 05 - 04:30 PM
The Shambles 21 May 05 - 04:36 AM
The Shambles 21 May 05 - 03:03 AM
Ron Davies 20 May 05 - 11:16 PM
Peace 20 May 05 - 08:11 PM
Peace 20 May 05 - 08:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 May 05 - 08:06 PM
Azizi 20 May 05 - 07:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 May 05 - 07:54 PM
GUEST 20 May 05 - 06:58 PM
Peace 20 May 05 - 06:41 PM
Peace 20 May 05 - 06:40 PM
Azizi 20 May 05 - 04:42 PM
GUEST 20 May 05 - 04:31 PM
GUEST 20 May 05 - 04:16 PM
GUEST 20 May 05 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Azizi 20 May 05 - 03:54 PM
Peace 20 May 05 - 03:44 PM
GUEST 20 May 05 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,MMario 20 May 05 - 03:16 PM
Azizi 20 May 05 - 02:59 PM
GUEST 20 May 05 - 02:51 PM
Ebbie 20 May 05 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Bubble Burster 20 May 05 - 02:31 PM
The Shambles 20 May 05 - 02:30 PM
Bill D 20 May 05 - 02:24 PM
Peace 20 May 05 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Bubble Burster 20 May 05 - 01:46 PM
kendall 20 May 05 - 10:16 AM
GUEST 20 May 05 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 20 May 05 - 09:30 AM
George Papavgeris 20 May 05 - 09:29 AM
JennyO 20 May 05 - 08:59 AM
The Fooles Troupe 19 May 05 - 07:32 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 05 - 10:11 PM

"So when's your next concert brucie?"

I'll be in my grave before that happens, Robin. I haven't worked in music for over 20 years. Hope I'm still allowed to post here, though.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 May 05 - 07:50 AM

After you, Guest


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 05 - 07:36 AM

You know El Greko, any old fool can log in as GUEST and hijack a thread. This is not a new idea...




Glug glug, glug...


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 May 05 - 04:33 AM

There is something deeply offensive and nasty in someone predicting (or warning about) the demise of anything with a smile.

Having plumbed new depths of iniquity, Mr Nasty Troll might consider an apology.

I said might. Something tells me that he'll slither away from that one too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 22 May 05 - 03:35 AM

Man the pumps!

Your proposal has been noted, but it has been rejected because it imposes a cumbersome procedure and restriction upon our volunteers, a procedure which appears to be unnecessary.

GLUG - Glug - glug - gl............*Smiles*


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 05 - 03:01 AM

When the boat is sinking - it may not be a new idea to start manning the punps and start bailing-out - but it would be a good idea.

It would not be very a good idea to ignore the suggestion that bailing-out was good idea - just because you had ignored it before.

Under these circumstances - it would not be such good idea to just carry-on arranging the deckchairs.

Glug - Glug - Glug...............


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 05 - 01:39 AM

So when's your next concert brucie?

BTW, anybody want to loan me some fly-buy points? Planning on leaving town....


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 22 May 05 - 01:32 AM

Not THAT old saw: Don't ever try to teach a pig to sing because it's a waste of your time and it irritates the cat.

I never understood that expression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 05 - 01:14 AM

Putting weight on the tone arm only wears the record and needle faster, it may cause the needle to take the correct path.

With skill and practice you can place a finger near the tone arm such that when the needle skips, you can guide it along the correct path, I used to do it.


Well, Joe, I know that works for some stuck records, but I really can't help you any further....

Now, as for teaching a pig to sing....

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:22 PM

Oh, yes. That old MASH episode with Radar playing 'the old tone-arm cobra.

I used to give it a smack. Sometimes it would just sail right on off the record.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: dwditty
Date: 21 May 05 - 10:15 PM

Put 2 nickles on the tone arm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 05 - 09:51 PM

Say, I was wondering, does anybody know how to fix a broken record?

I'm copying Debby McClatchy's LP's onto CD for her, and there are a couple that get stuck at certain points and play the same thing over and over again.

I figured if I can solve the LP problem, maybe I could solve the problem of Shambles, too. He has repeated himself so often that I forget what exactly it is that he wants. All I hear is that damn skipping sound, over and over again. I've grown to hate the man who invented copy-paste. It's an "enabling factor" for people like Shambles, who never seem to have a new idea....

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:33 PM

Doug,

The sky is falling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:31 PM

brucie: thanks for the clarification. Joe Offer: thanks for the explanation.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:31 PM

Posting judgements of those who post things on our forum - that you may not approve of - does not prevent them from posting things you may not approve of. In fact - the evidence shows that it will probably only encourage them to continue.

Encouraging and approving of the imposed judgement involved in deleting the things you may not approve of - after they have been posted - will not prevent them from being posted. In fact - the evidence shows that this will only encourage them to continue to be posted.

The only thing you have any control over - is what you choose to read - post or ignore.

When all posters finally accept this reality and cease with all the judgement of their fellow posters and we can all return to posting on an equal basis - there will be some hope for the future of our forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:33 PM

This is not a 'home'


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: kendall
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:30 PM

What would you do if someone entered your home uninvited to a party and pissed all over everything, insulted your guests and wouldn't leave?

I know what I'd do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:36 AM

Censorship on Mudcat

The full details can be seen on the above thread – but the following is the gist of my question and the answer given (in brown).

Joe am I take it from this as OFFICIAL that my suggestion is rejected and that you intend to carry on imposing your personal tastes upon the titles chosen by fellow posters - as you wish - without their knowledge or consent? Or (as it is NOT in brown writing) is this just you expressing your personal opinion?

Yes, Shambles, you may take that as official. Your proposal has been noted, but it has been rejected because it imposes a cumbersome procedure and restriction upon our volunteers, a procedure which appears to be unnecessary. Note, however, that efforts ARE made to respect and preserve the thread originator's work. Ordinarily, the original thread title remains intact in the original message in the thread. Also, thread titles are usually altered by augmentation of the original title by the addition of a clarifying word or phrase, preserving the original title if space allows. If it appears that a thread originator may have trouble locating the thread after a title change, the originator is usually contacted by e-mail or personal message with information on how to locate the thread.
-Joe Offer-


Party-on............


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 May 05 - 03:03 AM

and have you noticed the furor that occurs when indexing and cross referencing are ATTEMPTED? Not that that has stopped the progress - but it is being done by volunteers and there are over 148 thousand messages to wade through.

Whatever some folk may wish to think is our forum's priority and whatever steps this few may take to impose this view upon everyone else - the fact remains that this is a discussion forum that Max has opened to all the public - where the public's views are valued equally.

The posters should be respected and their contributions (freely given to all the Mudcat Community) should perhaps remain as the poster intended - unless they agree to any change..............

If they agree - then call it indexing. If their agreement is not sought or given - it is routine imposed censorship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 05 - 11:16 PM

I can't for the life of me figure out why anybody would criticize a fine --and free-- service -----Joe's party analogy is perfect----which has linked people from around the world, sometimes even literally, and has provided untold wealth in musical knowledge, humor, recipes, different political perspectives--and the list goes on------in fact a window on many different worlds.

Yet the same people (on this thread) keep whining over and over. If you have preferable alternatives, guess what---you are free to go. Somehow we'll survive without you.

So Mudcat goes down from time to time, and may stay down for a while. I am told there are other things I could be doing around home---imagine that! When it goes down, that removes temptation, which otherwise ain't easy to resist.

Surely the gripers have something else to do with their lives. How about practicing or playing music.?

For anybody above adolescence, instant gratification should not be a requirement for existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:11 PM

You are free to think my views are stupid, idiotic, etc. That's cool with me. You are more than entitled to hold the views you have. And argue them, and restate them. That's one of the things I like about the place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:07 PM

"So why draw the battle lines?"

GUEST, I don't give a rat's ass how you feel about the Mudcat. Trust me on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:06 PM

I'm still hoping sometime someone will pick out an online music community which has the qualities I value in the Mudcat, just in case it goes down some time and doesn't rise again. (Someone with a name that is, since I skim past the nameless ones in these kinds of threads, on principle.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:56 PM

Okay, Guest. I'll say it another way:

"It's your thing. Do what you wanna do."

"It's your thing"="It's your choice" [whether you wanna spend any time on Mudcat or spend it elsewhere doing whatever].

In my way of thinking, "To each his own" and "Do your thing" are the exact opposite of "trying to impose a unanimous consensus about something".

And Guest, who said that 'EVERYONE' had to use this discussion forum the same way or feel the same way about the Mudcat community???

"Not me" {said Azizi}.

Other people can and will speak for themselves if they want to.


Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:54 PM

Some people seem unable to differentiate between the DT as available for download to run as a standalone local application (last Edition 2002) and the online version, which is a vibrant mix of the DT pages and the current threads.

Could their musical taste be any better?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:58 PM

Right brucie. Which begs the question, why do those who love Mudcat feel they have a right to complain about those of us expressing an opinion which disagrees with theirs?

It isn't like loving Mudcat is a prerequisite to visiting and using the site any way a person wants to use it. So why draw the battle lines? People disagree about the value of the website, and some people use the website differently than others.

So why is it so important that you "win"? Why is it so important to you that EVERYONE feel the same way you or Azizi or Ebbie feels about it?

Trying to impose a unanimous consensus about something so arbitrary, ambiguous, and subjective is really kinda stupid, don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:41 PM

Nor do I complain about people who do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:40 PM

I do not like peanut butter mixed with chocolate. To me it tastes awful. So, I don't eat it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:42 PM

Guest.

To each his {or her} own.

I am neither an academic {or whatever the noun is} nor am I a professional musician so I can't speak for those populations.

But as a 'regular' person who loves learning about music and folk cultures and is interested in exchanging comments about those and other topics with people from diverse places that I will probably never visit, I consider the Mudcat experience to be very 'rich'.

I'm staying. I'm adding information to the mix. And I'm telling others about Mudcat.

   


Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:31 PM

Dick Greenhaus would be astounded to learn the DT isn't being updated. The search engine seems to be functioning - it returns results posted a few minutes ago as well as years ago. the 8000 plus songs is more like 9000 plus songs - not counting the ones on the forum that aren't in the DT.

Academic site, no. But that doesn't mean that people can't raise the academic level. Malcolm Douglas certainly has a right to complain about that if anyone does - but contributes regularly.

and have you noticed the furor that occurs when indexing and cross referencing are ATTEMPTED? Not that that has stopped the progress - but it is being done by volunteers and there are over 148 thousand messages to wade through.

A number of pro musicians seem to find the mudcat a congenial place and a source of answers for some questions. Primary source, I doubt it, but a source yes.

So the picture isn't as bad as painted, even if it isn't as rosy as others would have it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:16 PM

Azizi, it would be a waste of time to attempt to "add" to the DT because it isn't being updated anymore, and the search engine used to search the DT and forum haven't been upgraded. That doesn't make it obsolete as a resource for what it is, but it makes it obsolete as a resource that is being regularly managed, maintained, and expanded upon.

I haven't done anything to "spread the word" of Mudcat to anyone, because I don't agree that is rich or particularly valuable. For academic purposes, there are far superior resources available online. I can't imagine any academics using this site as a legitimate academic resource (though the "ethnomusicology" field is full of fluff and nutters, so I'm sure there are some who would use it and possibly even cite it in their work).

For the professional musician, I don't think there is much of value here, again, because of poor indexing, cross-referencing, and search capabilities, not to mention that many of the "8,000+ songs" are multiple versions of the same song. And don't even get me going about the "links" section.

Does that answer your points raised?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:57 PM

No problem with the self-selecting of music discussed. Zero, zip, zilch.

Just pedantically correcting misconceptions and wild claims about Mudcat is all. So what's the problem-o with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:54 PM

Guest,

I'm not sure that I would agree with you that there is 'not much discussion round here of non-Anglo American music cultures'.

Even if I conceded your point, what is your response to my points?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:44 PM

Well, as long as they're happy and people here are happy, what's the problem? There are no locks on the doors. Neither comin' or goin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:30 PM

Azizi, it is true people here are from North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand--and that is all over the world. But culturally, the vast majority of posters here are Anglo, Anglo American, Anglo Aussie, or Anglo Kiwi (almost unanimous with few exceptions, in fact, like Wolfgang and our friend from Iceland). There is a reason why historians refer to the US and Canada as "British North America".

The discussion of music here is almost exclusively Anglo American and Anglo from the UK, in other words. Hence, not so diverse.

Not much discussion round here of non-Anglo American music cultures like Cajun, Acadian, Tejano, etc etc etc...or Maori music, or the Australian aboriginal music cultures. Or even of Irish, Welsh, Scottish, or Breton Celtic music cultures for that matter (though the folks interested in the Anglo tradition are often also interested in the Celtic music cultures and vice versa). The folks with interests in the Celtic music cultures congregate elsewhere on the web, and would most definitely describe this website as "British and American" with "American" being their default setting for Anglo American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:16 PM

we do have the russian folk songbook up in the quick links.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:59 PM

Bubble Burster,

You said 'it' isn't diverse and is quite Anglocentric".

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'it'.

In my 9 months on Mudcat I have 'met' a number of people here from numerous places throughout the world who are extremely knowledgable about a diverse number of music and non-music topics.

While I would love to see a increase in the number of Mudcat posters who are people of color, I have to disagree with you that the resources available in the archives -posts, Permathreads, and Digital Tradition- aren't diverse {meaning that they are only from and about Anglo music and issues that only relate to persons of Anglo descent}.

I would also add that with very few exceptions, I have found Mudcatters to be open to and enthusiastic about diversity.

I would ask you Bubble Burster, are you part of the problem or are you part of the solution?

What have you done lately to add non-Anglo music to Mudcat?

And what have you done lately to spread the word to people of color about this rich resource?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:51 PM

Ebbie, that is all you are saying, but it isn't everyone is saying.

The claim that Mudcat is unique in all cyberspace is one often made by the Mudcat xenophobes and agoraphobes, as is the claim by the Mudcat computer luddites that this site works just fine for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:46 PM

Burble Buster, I don't get your point. We are saying that the Mudcat serves a function here that we enjoy. There is no reason that other sites may not do the same. Mudcat happens to be the one that we mostly frequent and are grateful for the chance to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Bubble Burster
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:31 PM

It also isn't very diverse, and is quite Anglocentric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:30 PM

I have posters from all over world who are now encouraged to post just to judge me and to call me names.........*Smiles*


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:24 PM

"... Mudcatters believe this is a unique community..."

who said unique? The point is, it HAS become a community to man, many of its members, whether they have met in person or not. I have friends I have met from here, and friends I have never met...as far away as Australia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:02 PM

OK. So what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Bubble Burster
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:46 PM

It never ceases to amaze me that Mudcatters believe this is a unique community because people know and/or have met each other. This is true of most the music forums I've ever participated in, and is in no way unique to Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: kendall
Date: 20 May 05 - 10:16 AM

Not to put too fine a point on it, all you mal contents, if you don't like it, I'd like to help you out. Now, which way did you come in?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:39 AM

you really do inhabit an alternate reality, don't you shambles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:30 AM

If I'm at a party I'm enjoying, and a few of the guests keep spitting in the face of the host who's paying for the beer, I do get concerned that all the spitting may finally convince the host that it's time to turn out the lights and go to bed.

If that were the reality - it may be a concern. But our host has kindly permitted all their guests to bring their own beer and to have many parties in their house. If they can't manage to keep the house open 24 hours a day - most of the guest would be grateful for the time that it is open.

So, I suppose it all boils down to this: if you don't like the party, go home.

Many of have been enjoying the party pretty good until some of the guests feel qualified to start 'spitting' upon their fellow guests. If you want to spit on people - perhaps you should go find another party - or host your own - where this is the object? Rather than attempt to take-over the parties in Max's house - steal their beer and insult the other invited guests?


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:29 AM

Not me, Robin, not me!

Like others, I too am a member of 3-4 different folk music fora. They all serve slightly different purposes and slightly different communities, and they all do a pretty decent job of it, by and large.

Mudcat may not be as advanced a forum technically, as others of its kind. And discussion in it may not reach the high levels of academic discourse that one can find in other fora.

It does have two advantages however:

a) The Mudcat community is the most diverse, both geographically, and in musical tastes (and even in interpretations of what is "folk" and what is "traditional"). I find this aspect invigorating because through the various conversations I constantly find out interesting things on musical branches of "folk" that I know little about.

b) The Mudcat community is (partly) a physical community too, as many of its members have met, and several do so regularly. My estimate is that about 90-100 of the UK Mudcatters have met each other, and an equivalent number in the US. And several of us have shaken hands across the water too. This lends Mudcat a "reality" that other fora cannot, and makes for conversations on a different level (for better AND for worse).

So, Mudcat is not the ultimate in folk music fora, but then none of them is. What does it matter? We visit different restaurants for different reasons, and the same is fine for music fora too. But as long as Mudcat has good things for me, I will be here picking among the threads for the little gems.

So far the pickings are very good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: JennyO
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:59 AM

Checking out this site for the first time. Why not use "vBulletin" or "Invision Power Board" like other forums? My $0.02

(Son of JennyO)


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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:32 PM

"Let's hear it for the regurgitators!"

You started a new group El Greko?


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