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BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops

McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 05 - 04:17 PM
Clinton Hammond 18 Apr 05 - 04:22 PM
John Hardly 18 Apr 05 - 05:05 PM
katlaughing 18 Apr 05 - 05:23 PM
Clinton Hammond 18 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM
LilyFestre 18 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM
Phil Cooper 18 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 05 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 19 Apr 05 - 02:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 05 - 12:42 PM
GUEST 19 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,bryant 07 May 05 - 08:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 May 05 - 05:04 PM
GUEST 09 May 05 - 09:21 AM
kendall 09 May 05 - 12:27 PM
SINSULL 09 May 05 - 12:41 PM
Jim Dixon 09 May 05 - 06:27 PM
GUEST 09 May 05 - 08:18 PM
GUEST 09 May 05 - 08:19 PM
Gypsy 09 May 05 - 10:17 PM
KateG 10 May 05 - 10:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 05 - 06:48 PM
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Subject: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:17 PM

We've been watching a channel on our cable TV called Animal Planet, and in particular a couple of shows called Animal Cops and Animal Precinct. Real-life cops stuff in various parts of the USA, but the cops are animal protection officers, and the victims of the crimes are animals.

Gripping stuff but disturbing. I mean, we've seen programmes from time to time about the same kind of thing in England, with RSPCA officers and so forth, but the impression that comes across from this is that this kind of cruelty towards animals is a notch or two higher, over in the States. And it seems to be more in the open - people with neglected and starving dogs chained out in the snow and that kind of thing, and the neighbours not seeming to see it as anything to do with them.

And yet I know better than to imagine that Americans are in general any more callous or cruel than people here. (And I hope nobody is going to turn this thread into the sort where those kind of accusations are thrown back and forth.)

So I was wondering, is this just TV distortion? Or is it a reflection of a different sense of where personal freedom begins and ends?

Are Americans more likely to think in this kind of case "It's a shame, but it's his dog", whereas in England it'd be more likely to be "Noone's got a right to do that to a dog"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:22 PM

I think with the number of people out there abusing and violating other people, animal cops are a waste of money...

Sure, it sucks to leave a little puppy chained up under the back porch in the dead of blustering, freezing winter... but it sucks more to have a CHILD there... ANY time of the year...

I can't escape the feeling that their efforts, while laudable, would be MUCH better spent elsewhere... but who am -I- to really criticize what they do with their spare time...


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:05 PM

Not having seen the story to which you refer I can't comment on it, but as past president of our county's Humane Society, I can tell you the problem of animal cruelty is huge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:23 PM

CH, it is a well-known fact that a person who abuses animals as a child quite often goes on to abuse children, spouses, etc. when they become adults.

McGrath, yes, it is a problem in the USA. Yes, neighbours are reluctant to call in about apparent abuse...esp. in the larger cities...there can often be fear of reprisal.

Here's a few interesting quotes:


I am sometimes asked 'Why do you spent so much of your time and money talking about kindness to animals when there is so much cruelty to men?' I answer: 'I am working at the roots.' "
George T.Angell

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
-- Mohandas Gandhi

Ever occur to you why some of us can be this much concerned with animals' suffering? Because government is not. Why not? Animals don't vote.
-- Paul Harvey

The worst sin towards or fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them. That's the essence of inhumanity.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Our task must be to free ourselves... by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty.
-- Albert Einstein

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.
-- Thomas Edison


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM

"CH, it is a well-known fact that a person who abuses animals as a child quite often goes on to abuse children, spouses, etc. when they become adults"

That has nothing to do with what I was talking about...

Got anymore cliche and worn out platitudes to share though?


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM

It's too bad that it isn't as easy to have a child removed from a neglectful/abusive home as it is for an animal.

Having worked in the Social Work field for over 10 years, I can tell you that where you find neglected and abused animals, you will likely find a neglected or abused human being.

Neither are acceptable in my book.

I have called in child abuse and animal abuse..multiple times. I would not hesitate to do it again.

ML


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM

I've watched Animal Cops and the other show on Animal planet a few times. Mostly in motels when we're on the road since I don't have cable at home. I think they tend to focus on the truly dreadful stories, because they get the best ratings/responses to them. They don't just relate stories with happy endings, so it does reflect some reality. They can be disturbing shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:38 PM

It's not a particular stoiry I was referring to, John H, it was the mass of stories carried in the programmes to which I gave the links in my opening post.

If my impression is correct that neighbours in the States are more reluctant to intervene, because of a greater sense that this would be trespassing against other people's rights, it would seem posaible thta the same kind of mindset might apply when it came to children, or old people.

And LilyFestre's comment is interesting in that context: " "It's too bad that it isn't as easy to have a child removed from a neglectful/abusive home as it is for an animal."

..............
I'm not that sure though about that link between neglect and cruelty to animals, and to humans, though I'm sure it applies often enough. It's not unusual to have people who treat their family appallingly and who lavish attention on their dogs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:31 AM

Clinton -

There are some who are good at doing some things and others who are good at doing other things.
Should we all get together and sort out the biggest problem right now, putting everything else on hold, and then move on to the second biggest problem, and so on?
By the time we got to the fourth or fifth biggest problem it would be beyond fixing.

While there may or may not be more important things than animal welfare, not all of us are cut out to tackle every problem that comes up.

Some people make good nurses, others make good firemen.

You are correct however, in asking why more people are not concerned about the abuses perpetrated on other people as a matter of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:42 PM

I would hope and expect that people involved in this kin dof work woudl as a matter of course contact their opposite numbers in child protection if they came across a case where people were neglecting their children as well - and the other way round as well. If you care about cruelty, you care about cruelty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

Cruelty isn't restricted to species.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: GUEST,bryant
Date: 07 May 05 - 08:01 PM

The stuff that they do on animal cops is harrassment.

Where is the ACLU on stuff like this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 May 05 - 05:04 PM

You mean if you own an animal you've an unalienable right to mistreat them? Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:21 AM

I agree cruelty isn't restricted to species. But while I certainly don't go along with the idea suggested by McGrath in the previous message, cruelty to someone else's animals is also cruelty to that person. And the Americans certainly have no monopoly on such cruelty. I live in N Ireland and most of my neighbours have pets (cats, dogs, rabbits, etc). Most treat their pets okay. But in our vicinity in the last couple of months a dog has been stolen and hung and another dog was stolen and used for baiting fighting dogs. In the nearby countryside, a farmer has found many of his sheep with their tongues cut out and he thinks this bizarre cruelty is a vendetta against him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: kendall
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:27 PM

I can't stand that program. How anyone who claims to be a human being can treat an animal like that is a mystery to me.

Some years ago I visited an old friend at his home in the country in another town. It was mid summer and I noticed his neighbor had tied his dog out on the lawn with no shelter, no food and no water. I mentioned it to my friend and he said that guy does that all the time, and goes away for days at a time. I said "Why don't you talk to him about it, or call the law"? he said "I have to live next to him." I said "Well, I don't" I took a pan of water to the dog and called the cops. My friend was angry with me and we havn't spoken since. Do I miss that friendship? hell no!
CH, if I saw a child being mistreated I would do the same thing in a heart beat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:41 PM

The program sickens me too. Unfortunately, there are people out there who think it is OK to neglect or abuse an animal. Confined to the US? That program is but I have seen similar ones about Dancing Bears used and abused for street entertainment, cock fighting all over the world, poaching that results in the death of most of the animals taken because they haven't the means to keep them healthy. This sort of thing goes on in poor countries where the income from selling endangered animals means the difference between starvation and survival. Who is the guilty party? The man who is trying to feed his children or the wealthy buyer who knows better?

I have reported animal and child abuse. Screw the angry neighbor.

Mcgrath - something you said above (It's not unusual to have people who treat their family appallingly and who lavish attention on their dogs) just clarified a life long mystery. Thank you. A relative of mine hasn't spoken to three of his four children for years. The one he speaks to he criticizes and abuses. But when his dog died, he cried for weeks. Unconditional love - THE DOG NEVER QUESTIONED OR CONTRADICTED HIM. Pathetic, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 May 05 - 06:27 PM

Here are a few things that might help put things in perspective. The UK has a population of around 60 million. The US has a population of around 300 million. So right away, you would expect 5 times as many instances of cruelty in the US as in the UK.

Secondly, for the same reasons, you know that any TV show has 5 times as many potential viewers in the US as in the UK, so anybody who wants to produce a TV show like that has the expectation of 5 times the advertising revenue, and so would probably have a production budget 5 times greater.

So you have 5 times as many instances of cruelty, plus people trying 5 times harder to videotape them. What does that translate to? 25 times as many instances being taped? OK, the math isn't exact, but you get the idea.

I am told that the producers of these shows have picked a couple of cities that have full-time animal protection officers, and they have their film crews follow these officers all the time. On every single call that the officers make, they have a film crew following them. I'd guess that means each film crew (and I don't know how many crews they have) shoots about 40 hours of video tape for each half-hour show they produce. Naturally, they pick the most dramatic cases, which probably means the worst instances of cruelty.

I'm sure the companies that produce these shows would love to do similar shows about cruelty to children, but the legal obstacles are too great. There are laws to protect the privacy of humans, but animals have no rights to privacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 08:18 PM

Why do we have to choose between protesting cruelty to people, and protesting cruelty to animals?

Both are heinous actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 08:19 PM

Guest 8:18 was me


RichM


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: Gypsy
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:17 PM

Way to go, Guest 8:18! Cruelty is Cruelty, and it should all be stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: KateG
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:15 AM

I agree that cruelty to both animals and children is heinous and should be stopped, and that people who are insensitive to the pain of others are likely to abuse both. However, it it interesting to note that in both the USA and the UK the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was founded BEFORE the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. In New York City, the SPCA was founded in 1865 by Henry Bergh, based on the English model, primarily to protect the city's many draft horses (for example there was no limit to the number of passengers who could pile onto a horse drawn trolley). He went on to found the SPCC in 1875 - ten years later. Obviously furry critters win hands down over squally brats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Animal cruelty/ animal cops
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:48 PM

On the other hand it might be that there had already been a greater willingness of other people to see cruelty to children by their parents as something to object to, and try to stop, as against cruelty to animals by their owners.


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