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Songs that should have been folk songs

George Papavgeris 02 Apr 05 - 03:44 AM
Sooz 02 Apr 05 - 04:13 AM
alanabit 02 Apr 05 - 05:03 AM
Celtaddict 02 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM
George Papavgeris 03 Apr 05 - 04:31 AM
The Unicorn Man 03 Apr 05 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Little Robyn 03 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 03 Apr 05 - 03:46 PM
Maija 03 Apr 05 - 04:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM
Haruo 03 Apr 05 - 08:57 PM
Eric the Streetsinger 04 Apr 05 - 12:58 AM
Gypsy 04 Apr 05 - 11:20 PM
alanabit 05 Apr 05 - 02:54 AM
George Papavgeris 05 Apr 05 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,Sidewinder. 05 Apr 05 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,PeterA 05 Apr 05 - 04:20 AM
Singing Referee 05 Apr 05 - 04:34 AM
HipflaskAndy 05 Apr 05 - 05:24 AM
Splott Man 05 Apr 05 - 07:36 AM
IanC 05 Apr 05 - 07:50 AM
alanabit 05 Apr 05 - 07:50 AM
Grab 05 Apr 05 - 08:00 AM
Linda Kelly 05 Apr 05 - 01:42 PM
Bill D 05 Apr 05 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,HipflaskAndy 05 Apr 05 - 02:30 PM
Wolfgang 05 Apr 05 - 02:56 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 05 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM
Once Famous 05 Apr 05 - 03:33 PM
DonMeixner 05 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM
Gypsy 05 Apr 05 - 10:28 PM
Pauline L 06 Apr 05 - 12:54 AM
GUEST,Jon 06 Apr 05 - 04:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Apr 05 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Guest, Bernie 06 Apr 05 - 04:46 AM
Seaking 06 Apr 05 - 08:07 AM
George Papavgeris 06 Apr 05 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,bfdk 06 Apr 05 - 04:46 PM
Celtaddict 06 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM
Severn 06 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM
Chris Green 06 Apr 05 - 07:59 PM
Margret RoadKnight 06 Apr 05 - 08:29 PM
Malcolm Douglas 06 Apr 05 - 08:54 PM
Alexander 06 Apr 05 - 09:09 PM
Celtaddict 06 Apr 05 - 11:39 PM
Severn 07 Apr 05 - 03:26 AM
Splott Man 07 Apr 05 - 03:38 AM
The Beast of Farlington 07 Apr 05 - 08:23 AM
Paco Rabanne 07 Apr 05 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,HipflaskAndy 07 Apr 05 - 08:51 AM
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Subject: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 03:44 AM

A special interest of mine is identifying songs that are created NOW, in our times, outside the domain of mainstream folk, yet they are "folk" in every other respect: They have a folkie theme (telling a good story, describing a trade or a historical event, focusing on ordinary people in a timeless way), a tune that can be easily learned and sung communally, perhaps a chorus... I know that the criteria are a little vague, so something that strikes me as "folky" might not pass muster for others. But do you have such songs that you could suggest?

Here are some of my "discoveries":

1. Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philadelphia" (the story of Paul Mason & Jeremiah Dixon)
2. Mark Knopfler's "Prairie wedding" (mail order brides)
3. Billy Joel's "And so it goes" (dilemma of opening up to love)

Can you add some?


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Sooz
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 04:13 AM

Bob Geldoff's "I Don't Like Mondays"


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 05:03 AM

Suzanne Vega's "Luka", which describes a situation which I fear may predate the song by several centuries, but which I hope does not survive long into the future.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Celtaddict
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM

Jerry Bryant's "Harbo and Samuelson" is an epic ballad about two young oysterman who rowed (that's right, rowed; no steam or canvas) across the Atlantic in the late 19th century. Full story, true, well told, highly singable chorus.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 04:31 AM

Another one I remembered:

Billy Joel's "Southeaster Alexa" - great imagery, similar to "White squall" and other Stan Rogers greats.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 04:56 AM

That last song he plays with A PIANO ACCORDION as well, how fokie can you get.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

"Same Old Lang Syne"
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:46 PM

Long Black Veil


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Maija
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 04:43 PM

Many of the songs from the German band Schandmaul are definitely very folky, for instance "Dein Anblick", "Seemannsgrab" and "Teufelsweib". The lyrics themselves might not be very modern (they have a medieval theme going), but the subjects of the lyrics surely are ;-) (Or, rather, timeless, I guess we can say.)

Link to the band: Schandmaul


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM

Of course Alan Price's Jarrow Song.

Quite a few Sting songs.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 08:57 PM

Peter Bellamy's Around Me Brave Boys, from the ballad opera The Transports.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Eric the Streetsinger
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 12:58 AM

The Pushstar's
song
"Wild Irish Rose"


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Gypsy
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 11:20 PM

Sailing, written in 1972 NOT by Rod Stewart!


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:54 AM

That's certainly true about Sting songs. "We Work The Black Seam Together" and "Fields of GOld" could both be with us for a long time.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:55 AM

Thanks, folks, for the contributions. Keep at it, let's see how many such gems we can gather from the muck of commercialism.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:01 AM

Bob Marleys "I Shot The Sheriff" and The Clash "Career Opportunities".

Regards.

Sidewinder.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,PeterA
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:20 AM

I think someone will come up with Steve Earle sooner or later in this thread, so I'd rather do it. The Mountain.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Singing Referee
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:34 AM

I've sung Lyin' Eyes and Desperado (Henley/Frey - The Eagles) under that pretext and got away with it. (Or so I believed at the time!)


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 05:24 AM

Anorak alert!....but leading somewhere...

'Sailing' - not by Rod Stewart indeed!
Words and music were by Gavin Sutherland from the Sutherland Brothers - who toured and recorded extensively for a good while teaming up with the band 'Quiver' - whose guitarist, Tim Renwick, went on to tour twice as 'second' guitar' to Dave Gilmour in Pink Floyd (anyone remember the Live at Earl's Court footage?) - and Quiver's bass player Bruce Thomas played in the 'Attractions' for Elvis Costello...

...which brings me to my nomination...
Elvis C wrote the marvellous (and surely must be earmarked 'folk') 'Shipbuilding' - as made a minor hit by ex-Soft Machine drummer Robert Wyatt.
HFA


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Splott Man
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:36 AM

Most of the Billy Joel album Storm Front would qualify, but then you knew that didn't you George?
I've been doing Leningrad from it for years. I'd do Downeaster Alexa but I can't reach those notes.

She's Leaving Home - The Beatles
Run Away - Slade, great singalong song.

I'll keep thinking.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: IanC
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:50 AM

Im quite interested in the comment ... 'Sailing' - not by Rod Stewart indeed!(/i> as I thought that, a song being a folk song, it would be unimportant who sings it.

;-)


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:50 AM

Yusuf Islam's "Mathew and Son" might qualify as a tale of everyday life from its time.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Grab
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 08:00 AM

Rather than "songs that should have been folk songs", it's often easier just to see who's a successful singer-songwriter. If they are, chances are that many of their songs are going to become folk songs given time, because most singer-songwriters transcend the standard categories. Mark Knopfler is one; others are Suzanne Vega, Ani DiFranco, Tracy Chapman, Joan Armatrading, Chris Rea, John Prine, Steve Earl, Bob Seger, Billy Joel, etc, etc, etc.

Graham.

PS. If you were considering it, don't buy MK's "Shangri-La". Very disappointing album.

PPS. On the MK front, "Money for Nothing" is very possible as a solo acoustic number on a single guitar. Try that one at your local folk club! :-)


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 01:42 PM

Mad World tears for Fears and the Bee Gees 19-- New York Mining Disaster also Cyndi Lauprs Time after Time


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:07 PM

¾ of everything Craig Johnson ever wrote...
"Way Down the Road"
"Keewanah Light"
etc....


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,HipflaskAndy
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:30 PM

Ian, I took Gypsy's posting 'written in 1972 NOT by Rod Stewart' to mean it just that - that it wasn't written by him - hence my detail as to who did write it.

I'm with you - it matters not who, goes on to sing any song - and I assume/hope Gypsy meant the same. Nothing sinister I'm sure.
Cheers! HFA


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:56 PM

A couple of M. Theodorakis songs and Rembetiko (German transliteration) songs from known composers.
Though I only know the stories they tell from translations.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM

Happens to me often; e.g. my, "Now is the Cool of the Day" was recently 'collected' as an old spritual and a choral arrangement made and marketed at music conferences...I think the arranger still believes that it was an old spritual!

Another e.g. my, "The L&N Don't Stop Here Anymore" has been mistaken many times as trad. Some have even recorded and claimed to have 'helped to write it,'namely one Bill Phillips of Black Mountain, NC.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:33 PM

Holiday In Cambodia by the Dead Kennedys.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM

Most of Ewan Macoll's Radio Ballads as mistaken for being trad.
The Shoals of Herring
The Big Hewer
The Lag's Song
School Days Over
The North Sea Holes
The Thirty Foot Trailer

and

Many songs by Gordon Bok, Utah Phillips, Bill Staines. Alice Gerarde
Rosalie Sorrells, Jim Ringer, Mary McCaslin, the list goes on....

But which ones should have been? Wait awhile and in some form they will be.

Don


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Gypsy
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:28 PM

Yer right, HipFlask Andy.........I love this tune, and i even like alot of what Stewart writes, but didn't appreciate him trying to take credit (however briefly) for something he didn't write. Same goes for "Morning has Broken" which might fit in this catagory......i think it is about 100 years old, so fairly recent. And certainly precedes Cat Stevens.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Pauline L
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 12:54 AM

I agree that many songs written by contemporary singer-songwriters will some day be considered folk songs. In fact, some of us who sing and play them consider them folk songs now. I would include:

Edmund Fitzgerald
Early Morning Rain
Carolina Pines
Teach Your Children Well
Gone Gonna Rise Again
If I Were a Feather Bed
Lay Down Your Weary Tune (The lyrics to this sound one or two centuries old.)


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:15 AM

Can I be controversial (again) and ask when is a song a "Folk" song?
Does it have to be:
a) Over 100 years old?
b) Of forgotten origin?
c) Reflecting the the daily lives of ordinary folk?
Personally, I vote for c).
Just because we know the authors name and (perish the thought) they may even be still alive, does not prevent their music from being "Folk".
I'm thinking of great artists such as Ewan MacColl, Harvey Andrews, Kieran Halpin......the list goes on.
What say the rest of you?


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:42 AM

Up the Junction - Squeeze(?)
Mighty River - Jimmy Nail

I'm sure there are loads more that I can't immediately remember.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,Guest, Bernie
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:46 AM

`Nothing Ever Happens' from Del Amitri


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Seaking
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 08:07 AM

'Kathy's song' and 'Clare to Here' - depending on whether or not you classify Ralph Mactell and Paul Simon as 'Mainstream Folk'

-and the less obvious, Rod Stewart's 'Only a Hobo'


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 03:34 PM

Jon,

"folk" is "folk", and despite there being sevral interpretations, most people agree that the term casts a very wide net, from traditional to Dylan, from Mark Knopfler to bluegrass, from blues to ragtime, from music hall to spirituals, oh I could go on for hours. The "anon" or "at least so many years old" limitations apply to a song being called "traditional", rather than simply "folk". There are threads with a lot more detail on this subject, if you are interested.

I am pleasantly overwhelmed by the response to my request in this thread. You see, there is so much "folk" written (and listened to) outside the "mainstream folk circles" (folk clubs, folk festivals etc), that I wonder - are we folkies not missing a trick by not embracing such songs more warmly, and perhaps attracting a wider audience? Not for discussion in this thread either - other threads do it better.

The reason for my request is that I want to start building, apart from my own songs, a repertoire of such "near miss folk" material. Stuff that many folkies would not listen to simply because of its origins, yet I believe to belong in the folk category. Like, for example, the gorgeous ballad by Metallica (yes, Metallica!) "Nothing Else Matters".


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,bfdk
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:46 PM

"Six Ribbons" by Aussie rocksinger Jon English - from the TV series "Against the Wind".
Text here: http://www.lottaworld.com/personal/songindex.html.

An, eh, slightly alternative version can be found here: http://music.kulichki.net/txt/v/victims_of_noah/six_ribbons.shtml. Enjoy ;-)


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Celtaddict
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM

I agree, lots of Gordon Bok, and also Bob Dylan's "Lay Down Your Weary Tune" which is the one Bob Dylan song that should be sung by traditional singers who do not do Bob Dylan. Also, several of Eric Bogle's not only should be but are well on the way, the (probably obvious) "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" and "No Man's Land" but also some slightly less heard ones like "Leaving the Land." John Prine's "Paradise" and "Angel from Montgomery." Bill Staines' "River" and "Roseville Fair." John Denver's "Country Roads" is virtually there too, as is Steve Goodman's "City of New Orleans." Like Jean/kytrad's work, John Connolly's "Fiddler's Green" is often presented as folk, and Larry Kaplan's "Old Zeb" is too.
And, of course, the one Grateful Dead song that I think will be sung as "traditional" a hundred years from now, "Ripple."


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Severn
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM

It's also a matter of what the song gets used for. I'd say anything used as a lullabye to a child, as the child has memories of a family member, friend guardian or nurse and a song they hold special. If enough mothers sing an Elvis song, say "I Can't Help Falling in Love With You" to their kids, it becomes as valid as my Grandmother singing "Aunt Rhody", or me, when my daughter wouldn't go to sleep, and exhausting all the lullabies I knew would sing ANYTHING soft and slow that came to mind until she did.

The same thing would apply to any song a traditional dance would be danced to, if it's danced ofen enough.

You and your lover's favorite song, if you stay together long enough, becomes a personal tradition with attendant rituals. Anything from anywhere sung often enough by family or friends on car trips might be, too.

Hey! Is "The Hokey Pokey" considered a folk song yet because of all the odd social situations it pops up in in your life both as a kid or parent?

Enough For Now,

Severn


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Chris Green
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:59 PM

I would suggest anything from "Levelling the Land" by the Levellers. It was that record that turned me on to trad stuff in the first place.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 08:29 PM

Many of Australian bard Ted Egan's compositions.
John lennon's "Imagine"
Buffy Saint-Marie's "Johnny Be Fair" (fooled me)


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 08:54 PM

Some songs "sound traditional" because people mistake 1960s -or later- revival styles for traditional ones. Both Johnny be Good and Lay Down Your Weary Tune were set to much older melodies; whatever their artistic merits, the lyrics of neither really stand up as "traditional style" on their own (particularly Dylan's) if you're not hearing the borrowed tune in your mind at the same time.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Alexander
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 09:09 PM

I second that vote for John Denver's "Country Roads"


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Celtaddict
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 11:39 PM

Good points, Severn, about what can be steps in the becoming of folk. (This is a little like The Velveteen Rabbit, or How Toys Become Real, isn't it?) My kids got a fairly eclectic bunch of lullabyes too, The Great Silkie of Shule Skerrie, Brid Og Ni Maille, anything my daughter described as a "long, calm song." I agree absolutely that a song being around long enough that people learn it from other people singing (or better yet, feel they have "always" known it), and that people have forgotten who wrote it, can certainly signal that a song has become "folk" (much looser definition than "traditional") but there are surely other paths.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Severn
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:26 AM

Also, if some songs can't become folksongs, or at least have to log in some time before they do, a parody of that song passed aeound from kid to kid or soldier can become one almost instantly. You can argue the merits of professional singer-songwriters all you want, but as long as there are children and soldiers there will be potential folksongs produced by the minute.


Severn


.....Gone to children and soldiers, every one,
When will we ever learn?....."

From kindergarten to infantry and possibly to adultry. It's a natural growth process.


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Splott Man
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:38 AM

Talking of children's songs...

Bananas In Pyjamas


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:23 AM

Many of Steve Earle's songs could be nominated.

Even stuff off 'The Revolution Starts Now' which only came out last year.

'Home To Houston' tells the story of a civilian truck driver in Iraq. It's a war song, a modern take perhaps, but a topic covered by much older folk songs than this and, alas, newer ones too probably.

ANother good candidate is 'Tom Ames' Prayer' as well as 'Valentine's Day'....oh, I could go on and on for ours.

'Harlan Man' is a Trade Union song about mining off the album 'The Mountain', the title track off that album was mentioned previously. Just about any track on that album coul have been folk because, as bluegrass, arguably it is already!


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:31 AM

Dare I mention Cat Stevens here?


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Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs
From: GUEST,HipflaskAndy
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:51 AM

Must be Ok Ted.
He got two mentions earlier.
One for a song he did, one for a song he didn't write.
Go right ahead matey. He wrote some fine songs - for sure. HFA


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