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BS: Libs- Beware of......

Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 11:10 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 09:55 PM
Bobert 23 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM
frogprince 23 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 07:22 PM
susu 23 Mar 05 - 07:04 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM
frogprince 23 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Diogenes 23 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM
Bobert 23 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM
Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Mar 05 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Diogenes 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM
ToulouseCruise 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM
Once Famous 23 Mar 05 - 12:09 PM
kendall 23 Mar 05 - 08:03 AM
susu 23 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 05 - 12:11 AM
susu 23 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM
Greg F. 22 Mar 05 - 11:27 PM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 05 - 11:25 PM
Greg F. 22 Mar 05 - 11:21 PM
Greg F. 22 Mar 05 - 11:14 PM
susu 22 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM
CarolC 22 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM
Once Famous 22 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM
CarolC 22 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM
Bobert 22 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM
Once Famous 22 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM
CarolC 22 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM
Once Famous 22 Mar 05 - 03:43 PM
Frankham 22 Mar 05 - 03:13 PM
DougR 21 Mar 05 - 11:29 PM
heric 21 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM
Greg F. 21 Mar 05 - 09:45 PM
Once Famous 21 Mar 05 - 09:42 PM
Bobert 21 Mar 05 - 09:30 PM
heric 21 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM
Bobert 21 Mar 05 - 09:02 PM
Susu's Hubby 21 Mar 05 - 08:50 PM
heric 21 Mar 05 - 08:41 PM
Peace 21 Mar 05 - 08:19 PM
Bobert 21 Mar 05 - 07:27 PM
Peace 21 Mar 05 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 21 Mar 05 - 06:51 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM
Bobert 21 Mar 05 - 06:10 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:10 PM

There are ones who are enlightened truly and then there are those that have to act enlightened and are constantly looking for ways to justify their existance and push their self-serving enlightenment down everyone's throats.

Sorry if that sounds like more than a few here.

But I do have fun Little Hawk. So did Groucho with Margaret DuMont.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:55 PM

Thanks, frogprince. The "flakiness" you mention is for two reasons...

1. I'm rather unconventional in some ways.

2. I often say weird things here just for fun, and to relieve stress (both mine and other people's). :-) I find this helps to mend fences with even my most ardent political opponents...but Wolfgang remains a bit of a challenge for me to get along with at times. Wolfgang is very smart, but radically different from me in a certain basic philosophical sense, and we seem to annoy each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM

Well gol danged if this danged thread ain't gone left...

Who cares? Ya' all just carry on 'bout ant danged thing ya want...


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM

Actually, Littlehawk, I'm just as glad you don't feel too
"enlightened" to spend some time here with us; I doubt if I'm the only one around here who finds you a remarkable mixture of genuine
profound thoughtfulness and strange flakiness. :) I guess I still seek "fun" sometimes, but it's just as apt to jump on me from somewhere unexpected. I think *seeking* for "joy" would be almost a contradiction in terms; on a couple of occasions I've gone looking for a little fun, and found joy instead; but as a deliberate plan I don't think that'll ever fly. I would say that I've had a good measure of joy *given* to me along the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM

susu - I have no idea why this place is called "Mudcat Cafe". I suggest you start a thread asking why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM

And enlightened people DO have fun, but they don't seek it from a position of want and need...the way the monkey mind constantly does. It's the monkey mind that keeps me coming back to this forum, but I try to seek enlightenment at the same time. It's an interesting process to observe, but a very hard one to control.

I consider Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna to have been very enlightened beings, and there have been many others. Most of them moved quietly through the World and were not been remembered by history at all. That is also the way of a Taoist master. He/she usually does not attract people's attention but passes by without notice, being in perfect harmony with the World. It's those who are seriously out of harmony who attract attention, usually, but an enlightened person can take on a special task in the World, as Jesus did, as Buddha did, in which case he is doing it as an act of mercy to help take others TO enlightenment and free them from suffering...NOT to found yet more churches and religious orders with yet more rules to follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:22 PM

No, frogprince, not exactly like that. Now, keep in mind, I am not enlightened, therefore I can only speak from a fractional knowledge about the matter...but this is my understanding of it:

An enlightened mind experiences absolute joy continuously (regardless of outer conditions). Under such a circumstance, "fun" would begin to seem a bit trivial wouldn't it? That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with wanting to have fun, it just means there is something much larger and more satisfying than fun, that's all.

Children do seek out childish things, and people in an ordinary state of mind are comparatively childish. They want fame, possessions, money, sensual enjoyments, little ego victories over others, power over others, and so on. That's childish, relatively speaking, but it makes perfect sense on its own level.

The enlightened mind loves all beings. The ordinary mind loves only a few individuals to whom it is attracted for some reason, and disregards the rest. The enlightened mind never stops loving. The ordinary mind can quickly turn what it calls "love" into hatred if it doesn't get what it wants. Thus, its love turns out to be somewhat counterfeit in nature, as it was not unconditional in the least.

The enlightened mind forgives. The ordinary mind harbours resentments and holds grudges.

The enlightened mind enjoys the variety of Life tremendously, but does not need to seek it, because it already has it. The ordinary mind is bored and frustrated with much of life, and imagines that there are a few "special" things out there that would make life way better...but they're usually on the "other side of the fence". There IS no other side of the fence for the enlightened mind.

I like fun and variety, just as much as you do, I'm sure, and my statement was not intended to brand fun and variety as bad things...it was intended to indicate how restless and driven the normal mind is. It's never satisfied for long. It's an emptiness that seemingly cannot be filled, and it experiences almost constant stress. It chatters constantly, like a monkey. It's like a body of water that's all whipped up into many disturbed waves...and thus cannot reflect anything accurately.

The enlightened mind is like that same body of water become still and tranquil, whereby it is allowed to reflect the whole of creation in a true and accurate manner. If I was there already, I probably wouldn't be HERE (typng messages on this forum, I mean).

I mean, really, would Gandhi or Buddha be amusing themselves by chatting on an Internet music forum if they were alive at this moment? I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:04 PM

Well I have to say that things around here are alot more enjoyable to me now that I have an understanding of people here, and now that I understand certain key phrases on the mud. I was wondering... Is it called Mud Cat because there is alot of mud clinging and the opinions here are viewed as stinky like a catfish? Or is it that just like a Mud Cat sometimes you must go really deep to get to what you want? Just some rambling thoughts I've had, but Mr. Genes, I do not think it takes clarity of mind to write things down... just read some of my posts, but make sure they are not signed Susu's Hubby as that is a whole other type of rambling going on there! Susu


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

Yes, it's good training in developing both thinking and writing skills. No doubt about that. I've learned a fair bit on the past few years on this forum. One thing I've learned is how not to get offended nearly so easily as I used to.

But it's a lot safer here than it is in real life...


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM

"the unenlightened mind is constantly seeking fun and variety, just like a restless monkey." Is it because I'm "unenlightened" that I find that an odd thought, L.H.? Does an "enlightened" mind operate on some superior level where fun and variety have been put away as childish things? If so, I don't think I wanta go there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM

Writing something down requires that one clarify it in one's own mind. If nothing else, that in itself justifies this forum. Of course, if all one does is belch and break wind, there is no thought there to clarify. It just contributes to the air pollution problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM

Oh, for sure, Martin...the debaters accomplish very little...but it's just something to DO, that's all. And it enhances the speaker's sense of personal identity. Some people like watching football. Some like playing video games. Some enjoy archery. Others enjoy debating.

As the archer enjoys trying to hit the target, or the golfer enjoys trying to sink a putt, so the debater enjoys the mental challenges of the debate.

People have restless minds. They search around for something to engage those restless minds.

That's really all there is to it. A truly enlightened person would not spend hours a day debating with people on an Internet forum, that's for sure, because he'd have WAY better things to do, and be quite happy to leave other people to their own devices while he did those better things. :-)

Which makes me question: "Why am I on this forum so much?"

Because I've still got a restless mind, that's why. And it's become a habit. And it's fun, of course. The unenlightened mind is constantly seeking fun and variety, just like a restless monkey...and is FULL of opinions and the desire to defeat opposing opinions.

Meantime, Life itself moves magestically on and God is God and no one can do a darned thing about it. :-)

Man, I WISH I could conquer my restless mind...and I could, if I wasn't so inclined to be lazy and just let it keep running the show for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

Martin, my pal, ahhhhh, I hate to break this to you but you have marginialized yourself here... Not too many folks expect much more than what you come up with, which is okay wid me... Yer like a commercial break... But again, that's fine with me. I think your posts are a hoot but I wouldn't be thinking that the ridicule anyone more than they ridicule you...

...but please don't quit... Sometimes it's nice knowing that there's someone in the room with a whoppy cushion just to break the ice, so to speak...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

Don

You can give your opinions.

I reserve the right to tell you if I think it's full of crap, but you don't want to hear that, do you? If you feel so personally attacked, consider growing some skin, you whiner.

Your grip on your schmuck definately has an effect on what you spew.

Dog Genes, you are about as much a patriot here as a french poodle with a dingleberry driving it crazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:58 PM

He already does get a grip on himself Diogenes. That's what made him blind to the right of others to express their opinions without being personally attacked by him. Ignore the clown! He's not worth the energy.

DT


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM

Pretty big enemies of America?

Object to the actions of the current administration, yes, but objecting to things that you think the govenment is doing wrong is being a patriot, not being an enemy. You talk like Joe McCarthy. But then, you probably admire Joe McCarthy. There was a REAL enemy of America.

As far as de/master/bating is concerned, get a grip on yourself!


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM

... hey, those were my hockey comments *sniff sniff*

Brian


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:09 PM

Little Hawk

Many of the ones who think they are serious debaters are really serious masterbaters I believe.

I don't come here to debate as it is a complete waste of time and energy. I would rather work on my own agenda and that is to riducule the complete bullshit they spout.

Many so called de/master baters here are some pretty big enemies of America. I don't take them or their lives very seriously.

they accomplish very little.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:03 AM

Question; What did the republican party ever do for the working man but to work him to death, then throw him away?


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM

First, I want to say that I was fully aware that people were going to get upset by what I said in my post @ 11:02 but again, and as LH so astutely observed, I am not an experienced debater. Please bear with me, I am trying to be clear, but often times what makes sense to me gets misconstrued. That's okay, all I ask is that you be patient with me.
Second, I must apologize to all you seasoned catters, I was informed that I should probably break my posts into paragraphs to make it easier to read and follow. I realize that has nothing to do with my inability to convey my message clearly, that is all on me, but I will try to be more structured and organized in the future, and welcome any other suggestions on how to post effectively from you guys.

LH, I agree, no matter when we leave things will be worse for them, as I do not forsee them ever being strong enough to take over from here (wherever that is). It is alot like enabling an alchoholic for so many years and then expecting them to deal with their problem on their own, cold turkey. Cruel if you ask me, because up to that point they actually have a false sense of security. I had something else pertainent to say, but I have been up for 20 hours and my brain can't remember it now. May I reserve the right to post it later if I think of it?
Anyway, thanks for your patience with me everyone as I am still learning. Susu


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:11 AM

You make perfectly good sense, susu, you're just not as experienced a debater as some of us are, and people will leap gleefully on any little slip-up in your presentation...naturally. That's what most people are like when they're debating.

(it's like scoring points in a boxing match) :-)

I think it's fairly clear that Saddam would have been ousted not too far down the road anyway. Seems like his older son was carefully planning a coup to overthrow the old man, but it got pre-empted by the Iraq war. His son might have been as bad or worse, of course. So might any other given successor. I'm afraid the Iraqis have been virtually guaranteed a bad time almost regardless of what happened. They weren't well off under Saddam. They aren't well off being invaded and occupied by the USA. They won't be well off when the USA leaves. God help them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

Let me clarify, my point on mentioning other countries was not that I did not think that they are not actually a democrtic society, but to point out that who are we to decide what system works best for other countries?
Little Hawk posted this..."Just because your leaders TELL you that they are fighting for "freedom" doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true. :-) What they are usually really fighting for is money, resources, and control of money and resources. They want to be FREE to do it their way... :-)"
Which is what I meant but am obviously not as articulate as others when it comes to matters of politics. As for my opinion on a democratic society, for me it is when the majority of citizens feel that whatever governmental body they have works for them. They have a say in what effects them, and that they have the right not hold those in charge accountable for actions that violate human rights, am I wrong? I do not however feel that our country has the right to decide whether that is true for other countries or not. If they ask us for help that would be one thing, but to simply go in and do it on the assumption that "it is what they need" is wrong. So my reference to other countries did not mean I thought they were not a democratic society, heck I have a hard enough time understanding this country, much less one I do not live in. As for what I think freedom is... It isn't simple, and it isn't free. But what it is PPSSSHHHAAAWW! I enjoy many freedoms, I can go to the church of my choice, I can say what I think and not fear for my life, but sadly even in this country not everyone has that, I know that there are people who are members of the Arryian (sp?) society who kill peole based on their beliefs such as Muslims, Jews, etc. So you are correct there is no totally free society. Which is sad.

Greg F. stated, "IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE BUGGER ALL TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11th !!!" I didn't say that it did, did I? I think what I said was "I do not presume to know what the true motivation for us being in Iraq/Afghanistan are, but after Sept. 11, I do not want to see our country attacked like that again, yet I personally feel that we should at least be trying to ease out by now, and let them control their own country." meaning that if there was a chance that anyone may be trying to plan an attack on us, I would not want that to happen again. I then went on to say, "I wish there was another way for us to help them achieve freedom, and maybe there was, but sadly it wasn't implemented if there was, and so sadly, what's done is done." I am sure that at some point Saddam needed to be ousted, but I did put in my post that we seem to be the ones who are always imposing freedom and our POV's on other countries. And I also feel as though Viet Nam was alot like this, but I honestly do not know enough about that to be sure. Let me say this too, I oppose drafting of soldiers unless we are truly defending ourselves, i.e. if we were invaded on our own soil, not just an attack in which we are retaliating. But not to fight someone else's war. I guess I am as clear as mud now.
There is no need to attack me, based on my views, they may just need to be clarified, I hope this effort did that. And if I missed answering a question, pleas draw my attention to it, as it is a mere oversight, not intentional, Thanks, Susu


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:27 PM

Why not Great Britain, Ireland, Scotland? They are not democratic societies...

"confused" don't half cover it. Try fu$kwitted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:25 PM

I empathize with your wishes for mutual tolerance, susu.

Puzzled by a couple of your comments, though...

How do you figure that England, Ireland, and Scotland are not democratic societies? Have you discussed that with any UK citizens?

Just what IS a democratic society, in your opinion?

And what is "freedom"? Is it one simple thing...or is it many things?

Most people who fight a war are consciously fighting for the freedom to run the agenda in a certain way that their country is in favour of, aren't they? (at the cost of someone else's freedom to run it differently!)

Just because your leaders TELL you that they are fighting for "freedom" doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true. :-) What they are usually really fighting for is money, resources, and control of money and resources. They want to be FREE to do it their way... :-)

I also strive to love and understand all people, and I do appreciate that people on the other side of any political debate are normally standing up for what they consider to be good human values. That's always been the case just about everywhere you could care to mention. An army that simply does not believe in its own values is an army that will quickly collapse, EVEN if it's armed in a way totally equivalent to its opponents.

A badly out-classed army on the other hand (like that of Poland in '39 or Iraq in 2003) will quickly collapse regardless of whether or not they believe in their own side's values...in which case they will lose the freedom to run their agenda in the way they see fit.

No society has perfect freedom. Some have more freedom, some have less. Every society is a compromise between total freedom (which is not feasible) and total control (which is not feasible either). I have found Canada to be a bit freer in some respects than the USA, although they are both reasonably free, in the modern sense. I suspect they are both less free than some other places...in some respects...and more free, in others.

For a society to claim that it is fighting carte blanche for "freedom" is often just grand rhetoric used to camouflage and legitimize moves of aggressive self-interest. Most wars are fought for ownership and control, not for freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:21 PM

There is no way for any of us to decide what is right or wrong,

Pardon me? More post-modern relativist bullshit, or what?

PS: as hs been proven repreatedly, IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE BUGGER ALL TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11th !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:14 PM

I don't have to speak, she defends me
A drunkard's dream, if I ever did see one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM

I would really like to see the mud slinging stop here you know? I think that everyone of us can agree that one death of an innocent person is too much, right? So let us find common ground and remember that we are all compassionate humans who do not wish to see innocent people suffer. I truly believe that everyone on mudcat feels that way based on their posts. I also believe that for the most part, each of you feels that they are 100% correct in their beliefs as if you didn't then you wouldn't believe it right? There is no way for any of us to decide what is right or wrong, and while I have tried not to get into a political debate I may be opening myself up to one. I will try and not get my feelings hurt by what response this may bring but this is what I think... I do not presume to know what the true motivation for us being in Iraq/Afghanistan are, but after Sept. 11, I do not want to see our country attacked like that again, yet I personally feel that we should at least be trying to ease out by now, and let them control their own country. I wish there was another way for us to help them achieve freedom, and maybe there was, but sadly it wasn't implemented if there was, and so sadly, what's done is done. That being said, I also feel that too many times people (other Government bodies) think that someone else will do the dirty work, so nobody does anything, so that is where America finds itself in a tough spot, for we are proponents of freedom, but does that make us right? Why should we force our views on other countries? I mean, why stop with the Middle East? Why not Great Britain, Ireland, Scotland? They are not democratic societies, so why not view them as oppressed too? Maybe because they are allies? I honestly do not know. I am so confused I don't know whether to scratch my watch or wind my butt! You know? Let me say that I love Hubby more than words can say, because he is a wonderful man, but he isn't always 100% correct either, but he truly strives to understand all viewpoints. He is a loveable Redneck, in the sense that he loves to fish and camp, and actually enjoys the simple things in life. I am not trying to defend him per se, as he can do that on his own. But I just thought it would be nice to say a little something about my views, and let everyone know that I do not agree with him everytime, and we do discuss each others POV, but we have a mutual respect for them, and I cannot speak for him but I actually respect every one of you guys' POV. I think he does too, because he does that with everyone I know. Well, I think I have said enough, and hopefully my babling didn't lose too many of you, as I know I tend to ramble. Take care all, and if you have any posts directed toward me, could you also send me a copy in a PM so I will be sure to get it? Post it hre for everyone else as well, but I don't want to miss anything. Thanks! Susu


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

And you are a perfect hypocrite (I know... nobody is perfect, but you come close in this case). But I won't let that ruin my day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM

You are always the idiot carolC.

I forgot how much of a Jew hater and supporter of barbaric suicide bombers who you support you are,


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

Dead is dead, whether you are killed by a suicide bomber or a settler with a gun. You can't argue that, and I don't really care if you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM

Not to worry, Dougie...

I'm cool as a cucumber... No stroke here...

And, plus, the Caps are undefeated this season. Life is good...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Very true.

But the Israelis are not suicide bombers. You can't argue that, and I don't really care if you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM

Thanks Frank.

Actually, we do have some numbers for that one. Several hundred Israeli Jews have been killed by Palestinians, and several thousand Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers. Even one death from either group is too many.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:43 PM

Frank, how many Jews have died by Palestinian suicide bombings?

Oh, sorry. Your not counting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Frankham
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:13 PM

Carol C.

Like where you're coming from. Labels are too easy.

I don't think that we have to play into a diatribe by anyone. We can stick to
what we know to be the facts and offer them if for no other reason than as
a source of legitimate education.

Regarding the deaths in Iraq, I ask anyone to prove that they really know
how many people have died in this war. It's already been established that
the only deaths the Pentagon will count is of those lost in combat. There have been countless accidents. I don't believe you can rely on the news media in the States to give an accurate count.

I think one way out of the label dilemma is to state that on certain issues you can be one way or another. For example, on the issue of the national debt now in the trillions, I could in good conscience say I was a Conservative. On the issue of bringing our troops home now, maybe Liberal or Left. On the issue of the intrustion of government into the Schiavo red-herring I could be a Libertarian. On the issue of voter disenfranchisement due to technofraud, that is a totally non-partisan issue. Those that like to place labels on people use enemy-posing as an assault on ideas. So I agree with you. Stick to the issues and forget the labels unless they apply to a specific issue.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: DougR
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:29 PM

Please, Bobert, take your medications. Otherwise you are going to have a stroke or something.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: heric
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM

I have to avoid that question. I don't have an opinion (or even enough facts) on Schiavo yet, other than that I hope her husband's suffering (and her family's suffering), may ultimately help others down the line, after the politicians and judges get through with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:45 PM

The delusional folk spouting off about the "same old crap" apparently aren't intelligent enough to look at what was going on BEFORE Franklin Roosevelt (a.k.a. The Antichrist) and compare it with the really "tired old message" and "same old crap" that dates from The Gilded Age and the likes of Teapot Dome, the Credit Mobilier, Social Darwinism & etc. that the BuShite crowd is currently pushing.

Only a delusional person or an idiot could look dispassionately at the econimic data available and conclude that Reagan improved things in any way, shape, or form.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:42 PM

Okay, I know this isn't a true obituary, but maybe it is for this national sport, at least as we know it at the professional level. I also know that few folks outside of Canada (or Canadians) are interested, so please bear with me, or skip to the next thread.

For two years, the players and owners have been arguing back and forth over a new binding agreement for wages, bonuses, job security, etc. The most recent contract expired this past spring/summer, and since then the owners have locked out the players... now, on the eve of cancelling the entire season, the players' union has gone back and said, "Okay owners, you can get what you want (sorta)." But, the owners rejected that offer, wanting a little more....

that being said... does anyone care? as far as hockey fans like myself, I mean...


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:30 PM

Okay... I can live with that...

But what about Terry?


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: heric
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM

You can see a poor black baby if you want to. You are correct. I see an infant with an incurable and fatal form of dwarfism. I am also correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:02 PM

I'd like to enter Hubby's lasy post as "Exhibit B"... Typical Bush mythology and purdy much what I said they would say...

And heric, the baby was not only *black* but from a family that couldn't afford to pay for life support. Do you deny this? If not, then I'll stand behind my original statement. If you do, we'll just have to find someone with blue clicky experience to put a link up to substantuate what I have claimed. (BTW, it's starting to get real tiring to have one Bush-head after another questioning my integrity....)(BTW, Part 2. Have you read the Texas legislation that Mr Bush signed into law?/)

Might of fact, might as well enter heric's last post as "Exhibit C", come to think about it.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:50 PM

You aren't holding the microphone right now because you libs were holding it for thirty plus years and never did anything. All it brought us was higher interest rates and exploding inflation until Reagan came in and set things right. He even did it with a liberal congress. You always stuck with the same programs....overtax the wealthy....they're coming to take away your social security....they're going to take away you're kids lunches at school....they only fight for the big corporations....plus whatever other scare tactics that were keeping the masses tuned to your frequency. It's really a tired old message.

If you're going to call yourselves "progressive"...at least get a progressive message instead of just the same old crap.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: heric
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:41 PM

That wasn't a poor black baby. That was an infant with an incurable and fatal form of dwarfism. Please. You sure like to color the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:19 PM

WHAT STRIKE?


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:27 PM

Well, before I get around to redirecting this thread back to what its about, hey, I'm all fir the strike... Be the first year in the last 15 or so that I won't get my heart broken yet again my the under achieving Caps...

Now, if anyone had any doubts about what I mean by the diversionaty tactics that the Bush-heads will stoop to, I think I'd like to introduce Martin's lasr post on this thread as "Exhibit A"...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:53 PM

Hockey? When is the strike gonna start?


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:51 PM

Martin, I don't know what yer on about the hockey for, but here is your answer:

Little Hawk is Canadian, but he don't give a damn about the hockey strike. He gave up on hockey way back in the 1980's.

From what I see, a lot of other Canucks don't give a damn anymore either.

I know I don't.

His pal, Shane, on the other hand is havin' fits about it. He wants the Feds to force "Blinding Arbitation" on the players and owners and end the strike.

Only trouble is, Shane ain't no smarter than a really stupid Golden Retriever with one temporal lobe that ain't functioning right due to havin' had a large tree fall on it.

I agree with Bobert that you ain't half as detestable as certain other idiots on this forum, and yer loyal to Chicago, and that's a big point in your favor. Mind you, I have met complete jerks who love Chicago, but I ain't lettin' that prejudice me none against you.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM

But Bobert, the most powerful tactic people who hold the reins of power use with their microphones is the age old, tried and true "divide and conquer" tactic. Looks to me like it's working, too.

That's the whole point of creating the false dichotomy of "liberal" versus "conservative" or whatever other categories people use to identify themselves. But these categories are bogus. They exist only for the purpose of controling the masses, and they are very effective at doing this.

I think the only way past that tactic is to point out the areas of common ground where they exist whenever possible, to try to resist objectifying people with labels, and to try, whenever possible to shine a light on our shared humanity, rather than on artificial constructs like party affiliation, political labeling, or other kinds labeling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:10 PM

Wellm you almost got it right, hub...

First of all, there's no way to ignore what conservatives, 'er what ever you radical Bush-heads are saying because we get it blared at us 24/7... You wouldn't understand that since most of what you hear, at least in them media, are from folks with whom you would find much more common ground with than the progressives who are bamonarded by them...

And in these days and times if you are going to effect chenge you need two things: the microphone and the microphone again... Sure, the conservatives love to propagate the muthology that progressives don't frame the issues well enough to attrack much of a following. This is mythology. We don't happen to have the microphone. That is the problem and guess what. Who owns the microphone? Well, I'll tell ya' who owns the microphone. Rich people who tend to favor politicans who cut taxes... That's who...

So we find some satisfaction of coming to places like Mudcat and put forth our positions because it is one of the few outlets where the playing field is somewhat level...

Now, as for changing the conversation? Yeah, of course progressives will do what they can to get the converstion closer to areas that represent what we feel are imporatnt. If we have black kids in Texas who have been removed from life saving machines because they were poor and we have a white woman's body in Florida that has been kep alive for the last 15 years with these same machines then, sure, we would like for folks on your side to explain just how this can happen in a country that prides itself in "persuit of happiness" and all that stuff...

But I can see why you wounldn't want that conversation to happen. If I were on your side, I wouldn't either but I ceratinly wouldn't use some of the ractics that you have resorted to to shift attention away from the subject...

Bobert


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