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BS: The flaw in Christian Theology

Jim Tailor 15 Feb 05 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Partridge 15 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,jim tailor 15 Feb 05 - 08:49 AM
GUEST 15 Feb 05 - 07:20 AM
Jim Tailor 14 Feb 05 - 07:13 PM
akenaton 14 Feb 05 - 06:31 PM
Joe Offer 14 Feb 05 - 06:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Feb 05 - 11:55 AM
Peace 13 Feb 05 - 11:53 PM
dianavan 13 Feb 05 - 11:50 PM
Jim Tailor 13 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM
Little Hawk 13 Feb 05 - 01:18 PM
Peg 13 Feb 05 - 01:14 PM
dianavan 12 Feb 05 - 10:57 PM
Little Hawk 12 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM
dianavan 12 Feb 05 - 06:47 PM
Joe Offer 12 Feb 05 - 03:35 PM
dianavan 12 Feb 05 - 02:58 PM
Joe Offer 12 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM
dianavan 12 Feb 05 - 01:07 AM
Donuel 11 Feb 05 - 12:53 PM
Donuel 11 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM
wysiwyg 11 Feb 05 - 11:19 AM
Amos 11 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 11 Feb 05 - 10:33 AM
Little Hawk 10 Feb 05 - 11:22 PM
Don Firth 10 Feb 05 - 08:56 PM
Jim Tailor 10 Feb 05 - 08:41 PM
Little Hawk 10 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM
dianavan 10 Feb 05 - 08:09 PM
Joe Offer 10 Feb 05 - 07:57 PM
Little Hawk 10 Feb 05 - 07:55 PM
akenaton 10 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM
wysiwyg 10 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM
gnu 10 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM
beardedbruce 10 Feb 05 - 04:16 PM
wysiwyg 10 Feb 05 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 10 Feb 05 - 04:06 PM
Jim Tailor 10 Feb 05 - 03:41 PM
akenaton 10 Feb 05 - 03:25 PM
Jim Tailor 10 Feb 05 - 11:12 AM
Amos 10 Feb 05 - 10:08 AM
Jim Tailor 10 Feb 05 - 09:59 AM
Jim Tailor 10 Feb 05 - 08:09 AM
Jim Tailor 10 Feb 05 - 08:04 AM
Jim Tailor 10 Feb 05 - 06:21 AM
Amos 09 Feb 05 - 10:44 PM
akenaton 09 Feb 05 - 08:05 PM
Joe Offer 09 Feb 05 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,MMario 09 Feb 05 - 11:02 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:34 PM

"Each question has an answer that agrees with what sort of Christian one is."

Except that it is either written by a Christian of only one of types being analyzed, or it is written by somebody who thinks they understand Christianity, but does not.

The answers that the questioner seems to think a more fundamental"ist" Christian would answer in the affirmative are not accurate for that POV.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM

Sorry I was the guest - I keep loosing my cookie and forgot to put my name on.

I think the table says what a lot of other post have said that "Christians" come in different guises. Those that worship Christ and those that emulate his life. Each question has an answer that agrees with what sort of Christian one is.

I don't know what the right answers are but suspect that the ones on the left are for those who emulate Christs living example and the ones ones the right are those who have more fundamentalist views.

It would have made a lot more sense if I had been able to keep the format.......or may be not.

Perhaps I'm out of my depth
I'll get me coat........

Pat x


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,jim tailor
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:49 AM

Guest,

As most of those questions don't have an accurate answer within the multiple choices, I assume these are supposed to be answered according to how far along toward either extreme you might find your beliefs? (that's the HTML part you couldn't figure out to how post here?)


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:20 AM

I thought this table was interesting and asks some of the questions discussed in this thread. Sorry I'm not good at HTML so can't make it look right

I would like to say this I have enjoyed reading this thread.

My personal beliefs are along the lines of "do as you would be done by" and "acknowledge my higher self" and "all you need is love"

Critical Questions About Christian Doctrines Which Need to be Answered

(1), Is God a being of:, unconditional love?, or, unending wrath?

(2), Did Jesus teach:, universal salvation?, or, eternal damnation?

(3), Are we saved by:, emulating Jesus?, or, idolizing Jesus?
, taking up our own cross?, or, relying on Jesus' cross?
, having the faith of Jesus?, or, having faith in Jesus?
, our works of faith?, or, faith without works?
, doing acts of love?, or, believing in his name?

(4), Is physical rebirth:, the reincarnation of the spirit?, or, the resurrection of the body?

(5), Is spiritual rebirth:, the resurrection of the spirit?, or, the resurrection of the body?

(6), Does God dwell:, within all humanity?, or, only within Jesus?

(7), Is the devil:, an ego-self to be crucified?, or, a formidable threat to God?

(8), Are we born:, in ignorance making mistakes?, or, in sin with an evil nature?
, with wills that are free?, or, with wills in slavery to evil?
, with our own debts to pay?, or, in Adam's original sin?

(9), Is the Bible:, the fallible work of humans?, or, the infallible words of God?


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:13 PM

No, akenaton, I was not. I was merely pointing out that in Joe's haste to distance himself from fundementalists, he was painting them as monolithically as he was wishing not to be painted.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:31 PM

Cant agree there Joe .....Awhile back we had Jim Tailor complaining that you were being "disrespectful" to fundamentalist christians.

I think your views are reasonably benign, but obviously other christians have different ideas.

In other words, they're not all pinkos' like you ....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:08 PM

Well, I think we all agree that Christianity is flawed. Is there anything or anyone who is NOT flawed?

I suppose there are those here who blieve that Christianity is evil. But then we have people here who call themselves Christians, and they're pretty good folks.

We have people here who complain about Christians claiming to be perfect - but we haven't found a single Christian here who claims that Christianity is perfect, have we?

So, after all this, I guess we're at the point where we started.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:55 AM

THE flaw in Christian Theology PP?

Just the one?

What happened to the others?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 11:53 PM

The flaw in Christian theology is that non-Christians look for flaws in it. The Christians are happy. Let 'em be.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 11:50 PM

Exactly, Peg. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

Nice post, Peg.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:18 PM

Very well said, Peg.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Peg
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:14 PM

It seems to me that one could easily find, as has been pointed out, flaws in pretty much any ideology or theology.

The important questions to ponder, it seems to me, have to do with whether any of this is working for anyone.

Are people happy? Fulfilled? Do they have their basic needs met? Do they strive to help others, from a sense of basic human compassion rather than some institionalized sense of guilt? Do they maintain an open mind and heart with regard to the opinions, lifestyles, actions, looks, or beliefs of others? Do they find beauty and wonder in their daily lives? Do they try each day to make the world a better place? Do they try to better themselves? Do they confront life's pain and difficulty with strength and hope, and try not to stay bitter and fearful when bad things happen? Do they appreciate what they have? Do they forgive others, and themselves, for wrongdoing?

I know a whole lot of people of all different religious beliefs and practices, including myself, who could certainly be doing more to be good people.

We're all here. I am constantly perplexed by the vast numbers of people I encounter who aren't trying to make the best of things in the time they have. We are not promised tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 10:57 PM

Thank you, Little Hawk.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM

Well, it's common enough for people to quote the very worst examples of excess by a religion when pointing out the flaws in that religion, and all organized religions have flaws...but that does not constitute a personal attack on a member of that religion in the present day...nor does it sum up all that is to be said about that religion.

The Catholic Church did some horrible things in the past and also some very good things. I do not judge present day Catholics on the basis of what their ancestors did, nor on the basis of what the Pope might have to say about this or that issue.

One can grow up with a sincere spiritual faith within the community of any organized religion. Or not. It's up to the individual, not the religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:47 PM

Joe - The pope doesn't have absolute authority over you, personally, but he does have absolute authority in regard to the theological matters of the Roman Catholic church.

I would also like to say that at the time of the Cathar genocide, the centralized authority of the Vatican was a relatively new concept. It was because the Cathars questioned that ultimate authority and continued to practice a form of Christianity that was much older, that they were branded as heretics and killed. They were, in fact, Christians who threatened the existence of a centralized, Roman authority.

The idea of holy communion administered by a priest was a ritual introduced long after the beginning of Christianity. Have you ever wondered why holy communion was started in the first place? In fact, have you ever wondered why you have to confess your sins to a priest or why you accept without question any of the ritualized behaviours you take for granted?

You're right about not having much history on the Cathars. The only thing that remains are the Inquisitors records. This, of course, is highly biased but by reading those accounts, you begin to understand how ruthless the Catholic church was in their quest for power and how innocent the earlier Christians were.

I wish you would stop taking this personally.

I have said what I have said as reasons for not becoming a Christian. I do not want to be accused of guilt by association. That does not mean that I am Godless or that I deny Christ. I may not fit into your idea of Christianity but then Jesus didn't fit into Judaism either. My guess is that he would not think much of todays version of Christianity.

I have many friends and family members who are Catholic. We get along just fine but we don't discuss religion. Mudcat is a forum for discussion (I thought). Its a place where, for the first time, I thought I could state my opinions about Christianity, in general, without insulting someone or having a guilt trip laid on me. I guess I was wrong.

Talk about intimidation!


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 03:35 PM

OK, diana, so who is this "temporarily appointed leader who has absolute authority"?

The Pope?

He doesn't have absolute authority over me a Catholic. I do and think pretty much as I please. I don't live my life in obedience to the Pope, and I don't know any Catholics who do. The Pope certainly doesn't have authority over non-Catholic Christians. There are Catholics who believe the Pope has absolute authority, but usually what they hold as "absolute" is a confused misunderstanding of Catholic belief - just as Bill has posted a confused misunderstanding of Christian belief above.

I can't refute what Bill has posted. If that's what Christians believe, then they're wrong, and I join with Bill in opposing them. But even the fundamentalists don't believe what Bill says they believe.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 02:58 PM

Joe -

I think he is referring to a temporarily appointed leader who has absolute authority.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM

Bill Kennedy sez:
    Christianity is a religion. A religion is a set of rules instituted by an all powerful dictator that must be obeyed. That's what all religions are.
So, Bill, who's the dictator?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 01:07 AM

WYSIWYG - I don't read any hatred or bitterness in Bill Kenedy's post. What I hear from you is intolerance, defensiveness and self-righteous indignation. Seems you can't question Christian Theology without raising the shackles of the Christians. To non-Christians, your response is just another method of intimidation.

Are you so high and mighty that you think we have no right to question in a thread called the 'flaw in Christian Theology?' When honest inquiry is considered an insult, communication ends.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 12:53 PM

Sorry I screwed up that post...it got complicated - screw the clickies

edit

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/no3da.jpg

Over the years half the story got lost
It was told but they called him a liar.
A story of labor, savior and cost.
Its the story of Jonah and his flier...

Jonah you are to build an ark.
Coat the timbers with nautilus shell.
It will act as an ageless bark.
You will save us all from hell.

With a papyrus blueprint and ambition
Jonah set to work.
Toiling from midnight to the noon day sun.
But there was a quirk.

The goat ate the instructions.
Lord, I am done said Jonah.
No you are not, where is the engine?
You need it to save flower and fauna

Oh God, damn it can't you do a miracle?
I'm not saying its your fault but comon.
An object then appeared flat and spherical.
and there appeared an engine most uncommon.

The storm was gathering and clouds loomed dark
The wind of the engine droned a solitary song
Jonah waited for the tortoise before they embark
But he waited far too long.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/no6b.jpg

Before the door could close a wave swamped the deck.
They glided to the bottom of a shallow sea
By morning Jonah left the air pocket
and began the story we now see.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/noahsark.jpg

All the nautilus were lost building the boat.
Jonah was saved by the whale.
The tortoise swam and learned to float.
The ark did not rot or grow pale.

Then one day the sea gave up its secrets
the shallow sea is now deeper.
10,000 years old, told the carbon 14 wood cuts.
You see, belief in any story, like faith, is for the leaper.

Learning the truth is for the seeker.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/ark.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM

Brucie
the Noah's ark story wasn't even about Noah.
It was Jonah. Somehow the letters got mixed up.




Over the years half the story got lost
It was told but they called him a liar.
A story of labor, savior and cost.
Its the story of Jonah and his flier...

Jonah you are to build an ark.
Coat the timbers with nautilus shell.
It will act as an ageless bark.
You will save all of us from hell.

With a papyrus blueprint and ambition
Jonah set to work.
Toiling from midnight to the noon day sun.
But there was a quirk.

The goat ate the instructions.
Lord, I am done said Jonah.
No you are not, where is the engine?
You need it to save flower and fauna.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/no.jpg


Oh God, damit can't you do a miracle?
I'm not saying its your fault but comon.
An object then appeared flat and spherical.
On the beach were parts most uncommon.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/no3da.jpg



The storm was gathering and clouds loomed dark
The wind of the engine made a peculiar song
Over the years half the story got lost
It was told but they called him a liar.
A story of labor, savior and cost.
Its the story of Jonah and his flier...

Jonah you are to build an ark.
Coat the timbers with nautilus shell.
It will act as an ageless bark.
You will save all of us from hell.

With a papyrus blueprint and ambition
Jonah set to work.
Toiling from midnight to the noon day sun.
But there was a quirk.

The goat ate the instructions.
Lord, I am done said Jonah.
No you are not, where the the engines?
You need it to save flower and fauna.



Oh God, damit can't you do a miracle?
I'm not saying its your fault but comon.
An object then appeared flat and spherical.
On the beach were parts most uncommon.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/no3da.jpg



The storm was gathering and clouds loomed dark
The wind of the engine made a peculiar song
Jonah waited for the tortoise before they embark
Could he have waited too long.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/no6b.jpg


Before the door could close a wave swamped the deck.
They glided to the bottom of a shallow sea
By morning Jonah left the air pocket
and began the story we now see.






http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/noahsark.jpg


All the nautilus were lost building the boat.
Jonah was saved by the whale.
The tortoise swam and learned to float.
The ark did not age or grow pale.

Then one day the sea gave up its secrets
the shallow sea was now deeper.
The age is clear from carbon 14 wood cuts.
The story is now for the seeker.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/ark.jpg



by DH


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:19 AM

Bill, you say you look forward to continued discussion. I feel so much hatred and bitterness coming from your posts in this thread that I would not enter into a discussion with you about ANYthing, least of which my most personal thoughts and experiences.

And I am outraged that when Joe mentions (the obvious and frank) bigotry, people have the nerve to suggest how he should or should not feel-- while dramatic displays of ill feeling run rampantly through this and many other threads. Feelings are feelings. If one wants one's most treasured and hoarded upsets to be honored as feelings, how about tolerating the feelings one generates in response, as well?

What I see in this thread is proselytization against religion, much more than any for it. While many Christians are restraining themseves from posting what they really think and feel, the negative message and witness rolls on in abundance. It feels very political, very much intended as intimidation.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Amos
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM

"Be off -- these are not the droids you are looking for."

"Oh....ok, let's go. These are not the droids we are looking for." (They leave).


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:33 AM

sorry about all the typos in that message, but I wanted to get it sent. Implicit in the rundown, but I think needing to be pointed out, is that this 'blood sacrifice' needed to be a human sacrifice, a barbarism from an even earlier period in Jewish tribal history.

Even more outrageous to me is that people have killed each other in the centuries following arguing over whether or not the wafer & wine are symbols of the body and blood or are the actual body and blood. And if they are the actual body and blood as the Roman Catholic church teaches then that means that every time a mass is said anywhere in the world Jesus suffers again the sacrifice of his life for our sins. My questions have always been how much does he suffer during the consecration of the host? 3 hours compressed into the 3 bell rings? the scourging through the spear in the side? just the last breath? and why would this be necessary?

Joe Offer above mentioned the 'Way' of Christianity. I would argue that there is no 'Way' of Christianity. A 'Way, a 'tao' is a philosophy of life. Christianity is a religion. A religion is a set of rules instituted by an all powerful dictator that must be obeyed. That's what all religions are. If you buy into them, you get the handbook of rules and regs and try to behave accordingly, with a final binding judgement at the end, and punishment & reward meted out impartially. I don't see the need for or the inherent truth of these systems.

The further theological questions are just as troubling. In the Christian system now that Jesus has ascended into heaven he is to come again as the judge. But he is not going to judge us on how well or badly we followed HIS teaching, but as a surrogate for his father he is going to judge us on the old testament commandments, did we honor our father and mother, covet our neighbors ass (or his wife's ass!) etc. That's what this whole crucifixion thing was for? That's why he suffers with each consecrated host, to intercede with his father for us who have strayed from the rulebook? does an all powerful god really need to go through these charades? I could go on but there are so many inconsistencies and absurdities that it seems unnecessary to go any further.

Let me say in general terms, it seems to me in studying religions that gods and goddesses have always been metaphors embodying natural forces that are beyond the control or understanding of humans. They are ultimately irrelevant to our lives, but perhaps reassuring to the more easily frightened among us. There is little difference in the teachings of modern science; we are asked to believe in muons, psions, quarks, etc. which can't actually be seen or experienced, but leave traces of their existence in relation to other particles. We see that some disturbance has occurred and we assume that some even smaller particle has been here and moved on. It may or may not be so, in a way that's a bit more believable than that there is a god whose eye is on the sparrow but who lets children suffer and die, but ultimately these scientific beliefs, and even if they are fact, are just as irrelevant and useless as the gods in regards to how we live our lives and interact with other people we come in contact with. The animal human heart wants what it wants. We can defer satisfaction of these desires for later. Does that make the fulfillment of these desires sweeter, more satisfying because gratification was delayed? Not necessarily. Or we can use our will power to suppress desire to severe restriction, live a life of complete self-denial. But why? For the ultimate satisfaction of these desires in a mythical Elysium? good luck to you.

And real social questions arise out of these beliefs. Why are our jails full of people whose only crime is self medication, except that the religious among us belief that drugs are proscribed on the list of rules that must be obeyed? Says who? Plants that grow are not to be used for medicines? only pharmaceutical companies are to be trusted to handle these substances ethically? these and many more questions are left unasked and unanswered, and actual peoples lives are sacrificed because they may not agree with someone's religious beliefs in these matters. That coouldn't in a secular democracy, one might say, but it's our reality just the same. Our lives are not much different from that of Iranians under the Mullahs, maybe just a matter of degrees. (and I rarely take anything but aspirin now and again, BTW, I'm not an advocate for drug taking, but it is a personal choice, not a moral one)

There is only one reason that we don't still live in the Eden of our myths, and that is because we choose not to accept the responsibility to do so, we will not share our resources with our neighbors, we allow people no more capable or infallible than ourselves the powers to lead us in directions contrary to our own self interests and happiness. I don't make the claim, as some have inferred from my earlier posting, and my statements here may imply to some, that the individual is supreme. On the contrary, the individual only exists within a society of other individuals who all contribute to his or her support in various ways. The philosophies, the ways, of the Tao, the Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tze, etc. all allow for a full and happy life enriched by each individual to the extent that they work to know themselves and develop their capacity for compassion and love, and with no rules to follow that if broken can't be mended by more mindfullness and self discovery. The reward for knowing oneself and living with others in caring ways is a happy, fulfilled life, where one is cared for as well by others in turn. That does not mean life isn't hard, even cruel sometimes, but we can work with one another to make it more pleasant, (like creating and maintaining Mudcat for example!), more just, more equitable. Does man's unalienable right to life mean only the right to the merest existence, sucking air in some hovel with nothing to eat, no clean water to drink, an accident of birth determining their circumstances and only gods to be petitioned for help? I don't think so, and each of us, in their own way, does what he or she can to make life more bearable for someone they know. That's all that's necessary, but it wouldn't hurt to extend our sphere of caring just a bit more. That's all I have to say on the matter (at least for now, I'm not shy about expressing my opinions! but I keep an open mind and look forward to more discussion)

Work for peace, and my wishes for peace and health and love to you all, but not prayers. This could be better expressed, I know, and I offer my apologies for rambling on.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 11:22 PM

Yes. I can sleep soundly tonight. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:56 PM

Gee! I'm sure glad we got all that straightened out at last!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:41 PM

I don't think I could ever write that dogmatically.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

Any reasonable person would agree with a fair amount of it... :-)

To find flaws in Christian/Jewish/Muslim theology is as easy as finding ants on a summer lawn. It's as easy as hitting the broad side of a barn with a shotgun. It's as easy as falling to the temptation to post one more time on Mudcat.

And it feels so good too! :-) But what if Judeo/Christian/Muslim theology is only a teeny little vague archaic scratch on the surface of the enormous conundrum referred to by many people as "God" or Spirit or the Tao or Zen or whatever you choose to call it?


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:09 PM

Thanks, Bill - That just about sums it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:57 PM

Well, that's one perspective, Bill. I agree with a fair amount of it. I especially like the part about no circumcision...except that I found out about it too late.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:55 PM

He speaks partial truth. But there is a God for Bill Kennedy. Bill's God is his own ruggedly independent mind and individualized sense of identity. That is a very common God out there, and it demands its own bitter sacrifices from the faithful. It is a God that fears, struggles, suffers, and dies. Sometimes it has fun too, along the way to the eventual demise.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

Bill Kennedy speaks the truth!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM

Oh, thanks. I am.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: gnu
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM

Yes, Susan, have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:16 PM

akenaton,

just as a point of interest, in military terms a string of all zeros is "all balls"


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:10 PM

Really?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:06 PM

The flaw in Christian theology is a basic one, it is based on the religious beliefs and practices of an insignificant tribal people who at one time worshipped many gods and goddesses, but do to their captivity and enslavement were introduced to the idea of monotheism. They became monotheists and like all monotheist proclaimed themselves to be the chosen people of their god with all the special rights and obligations accorded thereto. They became practitioners of animal sacrifice as blood offerings to the wrathful god they worshipped. As part of the accumulation of myth over time they came up with the idea of an original sin and fall of man from grace with this wrathful god, and being a wrathful god he let them have it with both barrels. banishment, sickness, eventual mortality (even after 900 some years of life an end!), and a curse throughout all generations to come until a sacrifice big enough would satisfy his wrath. Even after thousands of years a blood sacrifice is required, even as the Romans were making their bloody offerings to their gods, the Jews were doing the same. SO, some rabble rousing, do-gooding, left wing commie freak gets arrested for sedition against the power of Rome and is given up by the Jewish authorities whose practises and livelihoods he was challenging. He is crucified, a common practice of ROman law, but not a particulary horrible way to die in this case, becausee they don't leave him hanging for weeks to be starved and picked at by birds and insects, they stick a spear in his side and it's over in three hours, as the story goes. Over the centuries that follow, and almost immediately his message or peace and love, turning the other cheek, social responsibility for one's neighbors, non-violence, etc. is completely subverted and co-opted by the powers that be into a religion of power and might, where there is the possibility of 'just war', etc., totally antithetical to the teachings of the poor schmuck they name their religion after. His death somehow is supposed to appease this wrathful god, and suddenly he is a god of mercy, not wrath, and if we behave ourselves, and follow the rules laid down by those who claim to act on his behalf, popes and kings and lords and the like, when we die, after a life of misery and pain we may be admitted into his presence in some valhalla for all eternity, or if we have offended him in some way, we will be purged of our offense in fire and brimstone agony, and in the harder cases that will last forever. ALL TOTAL BULLSHIT. there is no god, there never was a god, there never will be a god. we are here as an accident of this thing called life, and we should give up this notion of divine intervention and get right with ourselves. The message of Jesus of Nazareth, so called, is a good one, a way of living in peace on earth with our fellow humans and environment, but not another Lord to obey who will give us our reward for loyalty some day in heaven, and no killing in his name. just a nice way to get along with one another. treat everyone the way you would like to be treated, return injury with blessings, etc., a complete break and negation of the Judaic law that precedes him of an eye for an eye, etc. no circumcision is necessary or recommended. unless you study the religions of other cultures and see how commonly held some of these beliefs were and how foolish they are in reality, you can pray your whole life away while cursing the fates, your neighbors, the gays, the arabs, the government or whomever you don;t agree with and your life will one day wind down to it's end with you none the wiser or happier, your body to rot back into the earth and your spirit extinguished with the breath you last exhale. only your good works will live on in the memories of your family or friends, the more outrageous among you will live in infamy with your inglorious deeds an example for generations to come of what not to do. Life is precious, time is fleeting, now is all there is. Have a nice day!


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:41 PM

lol!


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:25 PM

000


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 11:12 AM

That's me!!

Reminds me...

Know what 668 is?

The antichrist's nextdoor neighbor.

I gotta get me a number. Every Anti-something should have one.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:08 AM

Jim is the Anti-Snide!! Sussed at last.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:59 AM

People like me have so little snide that they actually needed to invent a device that measured snide in such small increments. It's called a "snide-rule".   Of course, since Texas Instruments has made the pocket calculator so ubiquitous, the snide-rule is more or less obsolete. Few people are even old enough to remember how to use one.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:09 AM

I actually tried to be snide one time. It backfired so badly that I was besnide myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:04 AM

....in fact, I am so the anti-snide that if they ever made a cartoon character of me, I would no doubt be named, "Snidely Neckbrace"


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 06:21 AM

akenaton,

Though I'm sure he appreciates your protective words, I think if Joe thinks I am being "snide" he seems quite capable of pointing it out himself.

I am the anti-snide.

Hope your day is just the ginchiest!


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 10:44 PM

I agree with you Joe, that if you take as your baseline approach those values espoused by Jesus in that Sermon, and seek to return to them in spite of all set-backs, that you are thereby practicing right living.

I can do without most of what the organization came up with after that date, but we certainly agree on those fundamentals. And in fact I think the problem with any religion is not even with its fundamentalists, but with those who constitute its fanatic sector.

Even a fanatic Buddhist (although I have never heard of such a thing) would leave more of a stain than a blessing on the world.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 08:05 PM

Jim Tailor...Joe replied to my posts and questions in a good natured and informative way.   I respect him very much for that ,although I was not covinced by him or others who made the case for "religion".

The tone of your post to Joe was snide and arrogant in my opinion.
If you feel Joe is not representing your point of view, answer the queries yourself, and dont load your fundamentalist "baggage" onto someone who is obviously a decent man.

I dont "condemn" Joe or anyone else here for their views by the way,I was simply stating the reasons why I could not accept them personally


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:56 PM

Jim, I think there needs to be a distinction made between "conservative" Christians and "fundamentalist" Christians. Fundamentalists are aggessive, intolerant, and legalistic. They exist in almost every creed. Their aim is to destroy anyone who doesn't agree with them or doesn't exist their imposition of beliefs upon others. I think you could say there are fundamentalist liberals, too; and even fundamentalist atheists.
I have been inspired by many conservative Christians, even though my understanding may be different from theirs. If you take the Sermon on the Mount literally and live by it, the liberal-conservative differences mean little more than an intellectual disagreement. For the most part, it does not matter whether the Scriptures are understood literally or not - what does matter is whether the message is heard and understood.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 11:02 AM

People of faith in any creed are generally good people who do good things.

Does anyone else remember the scene in the 'Narnia' series where the invaders enter the hut - the truly evil ones to be destroyed by their god - the young soldier who though devout in his worship of the "evil" god did good was met by Aslan?


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