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BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??

Ellenpoly 03 Dec 04 - 03:44 AM
dianavan 03 Dec 04 - 01:29 AM
Metchosin 03 Dec 04 - 12:51 AM
Metchosin 03 Dec 04 - 12:49 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 02 Dec 04 - 06:06 PM
Don Firth 02 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 02 Dec 04 - 06:00 PM
Once Famous 02 Dec 04 - 05:57 PM
Ed. 02 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 02 Dec 04 - 04:51 PM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 02 Dec 04 - 04:41 PM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 02 Dec 04 - 03:22 PM
CarolC 02 Dec 04 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 02 Dec 04 - 09:43 AM
Susan-Marie 02 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM
beardedbruce 02 Dec 04 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,TIA 02 Dec 04 - 07:00 AM
Ellenpoly 02 Dec 04 - 01:55 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 01:46 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 01:45 AM
beardedbruce 02 Dec 04 - 01:36 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 01:32 AM
dianavan 02 Dec 04 - 01:32 AM
Boab 02 Dec 04 - 01:11 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 01:03 AM
CarolC 02 Dec 04 - 12:53 AM
CarolC 02 Dec 04 - 12:52 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 12:48 AM
CarolC 02 Dec 04 - 12:48 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 12:47 AM
CarolC 02 Dec 04 - 12:41 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 12:38 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 12:34 AM
GUEST 02 Dec 04 - 12:30 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Dec 04 - 12:24 AM
Peace 02 Dec 04 - 12:10 AM
Peace 01 Dec 04 - 11:56 PM
GUEST 01 Dec 04 - 11:53 PM
Peace 01 Dec 04 - 11:53 PM
Peace 01 Dec 04 - 11:50 PM
MarkS 01 Dec 04 - 11:46 PM
beardedbruce 01 Dec 04 - 11:36 PM
CarolC 01 Dec 04 - 11:33 PM
Peace 01 Dec 04 - 10:17 PM
Bill D 01 Dec 04 - 09:23 PM
Mudlark 01 Dec 04 - 09:16 PM
Bill D 01 Dec 04 - 09:08 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 03:44 AM

Yup


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 01:29 AM

Who's the #1 environmental disaster? We are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 12:51 AM

well its still December 2, 2004 on the west coast of Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 12:49 AM

Mankind

As today is the 20th anniversary, it seems fitting to include the Bhopal Disaster on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:08 PM

And they with him, Chongo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:06 PM

David Suzuki is a good guy. He's popular with primates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM

It must be some kind of convergence.

Today, as I was sitting here at the computer, with the radio on my desk turned to KUOW-FM, the University of Washington's radio station (which is also one of the local NPR affiliates), David Suzuki was a guest on "Weekday," a discussion program about issues of the day He talked some about a new book he has written, entitled Tree: A Life, which describes the life-cycle of a tree (a Douglas fir, I believe he said) and how it fulfills its niche in the environment.

The program took off and expanded greatly from there, as the host, Steve Scher, and David Suzuki discussed environmental matters, including how the salmon depends on healthy forests (NOT the Bush version!) for their survival (clean rivers and streams in which they can spawn), and how the forests, in turn, depend on the salmon for some of their nutrients to keep them healthy. After spawning, the salmon die. Their dead carcasses lying in the stream beds break down and return nitrogen (fertilizer) to the forest, actually distributed (as Suzuki put it) "by various animals—bears and such—feasting on this bonanza of protein, dragging the dead salmon into the forest and eating them, leaving scraps to decay, pooping in the forests. . . ." Thus the cycle of mutual dependency continues. And that cycle includes humans.

"Who is David Suzuki," you ask?

Officially, he is geneticist and Professor Emeritus of The University of British Columbia, Sustainable Development Research Institute. But like Carl Sagan, he is probably best known for the science programs he has hosted on television. I imagine he's been seen more in Canada than the United States, but our local PBS affiliate, KCTS-TV broadcasts his programs. I've see him a lot, and he is brilliantly informative. And he is both gentle and passionate about his subjects. He is also chair of the David Suzuki Foundation. There is some great stuff on this web site. Browse!

The link to the specific program on KUOW may not last, but KUOW generally archives these programs, so it may be available in a day or so. You should be able to reach it by going to http://www.kuow.org/. Click on "Search Archives" in the column on the left of the screen and from the pull-down menus, select "Weekday" in the Show box, "Steve Scher" in the Host/Reporter box, and "Dec 02 2004" in the date boxes. Well worth listening to.

Don Firth

P. S.: I didn't think so, Ed, but apparently, I guess. What exactly was your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:00 PM

I never figured you for that kind of fetishism, Martin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:57 PM

The #1 environmental disaster is Don Firth's underwear.

Bush won't let him change it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Ed.
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM

Don and CarolC,

You (no doubt unintentionally) missed my point. That's the nature of online discussion, I think.

Caring about what you care about is a good thing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:51 PM

You've led a sheltered life haven't ya, Brucie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:48 PM

What do ya do with the bones? I have never understood why people buy those things. Ya skin 'em, throw away the bone and what the hell is left to eat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:41 PM

It ain't me. I even compost my banana peels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:23 PM

The native peoples of Canada's western plains used a 'burn' technology. Ares of treed land would be burned thus creating open fields and meadows. When the new growth began at the edge of the burn area, it attracted game like deer, antelope, moose, fox, wolf, etc. It made hunting easier and also made it easier to harvest the new plants that grew there. These included the wild rose (the hips of which contain fantastic amounts of vitamin C). It made harvesting both animals and plants that much easier. (Try hunting in thick brush. It is difficult, noisy and bloody hard work.) Thus, they learned to control that part of their environment and make living somewhat easier. However, the highest estimate I know of for native population in North America at the time Europeans arrived in substantial numbers is about 5-6 MILLION. They did not tax the land's carrying capacity. The numbers of people we have today (350 million in the US and 32 million in Canada--these numbers are approximate) do tax the land's carrying capacity. Our engineering of dams to create electricity (James Bay Project for example), permanently alter the face of our country. Similar things in the US do the same teher. And much of this stuff destroys habitat big time. We have to get this shit under control or we'll be leaving a friggin' mess for the next generations. It's a serious issue, and one that people have to come together about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:22 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:16 PM

The best way to prevent the kind of forest fires that kill trees is to allow frequent fires that clear out the underbrush and leaf litter while there's not enough of it to make a fire big enough to kill trees. That's how nature took care of it before humans started intervening. It's the human intervention that has caused underbrush and leaf litter to build up to an amount that would cause the kinds of massively destructive fires we see today. Old growth trees survived a long, long time because nature was doing a good job on its own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 09:43 AM

Boab,

Are you sure it wasn't Sherman going thru Atlanta?

And to all, surely most of us know that the way to prevent wilfires isn't to cut the trees but clear away the underbrush which grows because theirs too much sunlight from too little trees? I keep wondering where the forests are when the Santa Monica hillsides blaze up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM

Bill D - Eat seaweed? The day after the U.S. Presedntial election some friends and I watched "Soylent Green"......

Kaleea - Actually, there is a B-grade movie ("Arrival") starring Charlie SHeen with that very premise - the aliens are "terraforming" earth by creating policies that allow a build up of greenhouse gases. IF you ever see a government official who gets very uncomfoatable when the temperature goes below 40 degrees F, be very suspicious......

And finally, Don - I feel your pain. When Bush was selected as the winner in 2000 I thought "OK, how much damage can he do in four years?" Now I know, and I fear for the next four years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:29 AM

actually, they just poisoned everybody else- they were the blue-green algae that still is around.

And they did make it possible for all the present ecosystem to come into being...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:00 AM

Oooh, an even better point BB. Yes, the oxygen-producing bacteria filled the planet with their own poisonous waste until they completely eradicated themselves. Any lessons hidden in there for us (and for our President, of course)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:55 AM

Has anyone mentioned Greece? I just scanned this thread, but I do know the reason the Greek islands in the Cyclades, where I lived for a decade, were deforested, were because of goats over-grazing.


..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:46 AM

Post above for D'van.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:45 AM

They had domesticated pigs. Google the following. The same site gives climatic reasons.

Neat site regardless.

Predynastic and Protodynastic Egypt: A Model of State Formation


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:36 AM

Guest, TIA, and ClintonHammond

Actually, the worst ecological disaster was the oxygen producing bacteria- they destroyed the ENTIRE ecosystem.


But no blaming Bush for that, either...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:32 AM

Sure. You are a nice person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:32 AM

I agree that there is no evidence of pigs in the Sahara around 3000 BC. Sheep herders and goats, yes. If memory serves me right, I think pigs were found a little later around the Med. It is also known that throughout the history of the middle east, cedars were extensively harvested.

Before the "dust bowl" there were vast herds of buffalo and native grasses and a unique ecosystem, and nomadic tribes. Then they killed the buffalo...

European farmers introduced new crops.

Then our mother rebelled and sent clouds of earth across the praries.

So are you still talkin to me brucie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Boab
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:11 AM

I remember having my attention taken by a printed sheet on an office wall and in the reading, believed it was a protest from some environmentalist about the depredations of the British Columbia forests. It described the denuding of the mountainsides and the clearcutting of the coniferous forests. Not till I came to the part about invaders burning what was left did I check the author's name. It was Socrates,talking about ancient Greece! There is, as can be seen, a point of no return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:03 AM

I think it's time for me to get some sleep, Carol. We keep crossposting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:53 AM

We keep crossposting, brucie. I think it's time for me to go to bed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:52 AM

Actually, the dust bowl was caused by a lack of precipitation along with very destructive farming practices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:48 AM

Could be. No love lost anyway, from either side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:48 AM

But having said all of that, I suspect that beardedbruce was having a humourous moment in his post of 01 Dec 04 - 11:36 PM, and was not being entirely serious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:47 AM

It doesn't take much to turn productive land into something resembling a desert. We had that in North America in the 1930s. That wasn't caused by animals. It was caused by lack of precipitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:41 AM

Neither goats nor pigs are really grass eaters (grazers), since they aren't ruminants and don't have the right kind of digestive tracts for that sort of thing. Pigs will eat grass if they are hungry enough, but they can't live on it. Pigs are browsers and scavengers, and goats are browsers (browsers eat things like clover and other broad leafed weeds, as well as the foliage on some trees and shrubs. Cattle and sheep are grass grazers. Sheep will eat the grass right down to the roots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:38 AM

Thank you, SRS. I am aware of that. I am also aware that there are many views as to what caused the desertification of the Sahara. I was not giving that as a definitive answer. Just AN answer. I can go get more from 'established' encyclopaedias that disagree with Wikipedia. And views from scholarly papers on the 'net that disagree with each other. I really don't need to know whether it was goats or pigs, cyclic climatic changes, over farming, etc. When I do I will did deeper and certainly more thoroughly.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:34 AM

Hey, pal. Goats work for me. "Once upon a time in the Sahara Forest" was meant to be a joke--not a good one obviously. Second, I don't need the suggestion from anyone that I think Bush is the cause of our environmental problems. Third, I don't like words being put in my mouth. Fourth, while we're at it, Bush sure as hell ain't helping things. Fifth, have a nice evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:30 AM

brucie-

Look at the first post to this thread...

And I learned it as goats, which ate the entire grass, including the roots. I supppose pigs might have been a factor, but I have no information on large numbers in Northern Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:24 AM

Others suggest the cutting of the trees caused it. Like the loss of the cedars that Lebanon is famous for. (Wikipedia should only be starting point to answer questions, not the deciding source. It's a voluntary encyclopedia with oversight only if someone bothers to complain about an entry.) Some years ago I read some environmental philosophy essays about this topic (desertification in the Old World around the Mediterranean and into Africa) and it was a quite complex set of factors that could have contributed to this event.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 12:10 AM

"The Sahara was one of the first regions of Africa to be farmed. However, desertification set in around 3000 BC. Some historians and anthropologists have suggested that over-grazing by the domestic animals (particularly pigs) of ancient civilizations of the region was a primary factor in its eventual desertification."

from Wikipedia under "see also" Sahara Desert (ecoregion)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:56 PM

And then there is the Dead Sea--and before BB says it, yes, it too was overgrazed by goats. Keriste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:53 PM

To answer the question: Paris Hilton. To comment on the original post: this shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Ever been to Odessa, TX? They don't have any environment.

Sorry, just being naughty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:53 PM

I just had a look. I didn't mention Bush until after you did BB. Someone piss in yer cornflakes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:50 PM

BeardedBruce: Did you say goats? Alright.

Also, while we are talking about horned things, pull yours in, please. I didn't mention Bush. You did. So apologize. Then be nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: MarkS
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:46 PM

I nominate the burning of coal for electrical generation. Seem to recall a gov study some years ago saying many thousands of extra deaths per year were due to the mining, transportation, and burning of coal in powerplants.

Will try to find the reference and post the exact numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:36 PM

brucie,

6000 years ago the Sahara was a grassland. It was destroyed by overgrazing by goats.

But you can't blame Bush for that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:33 PM

Ed, I don't know why you would want to discourage people in the US from examining our mistakes and the ways that we need to improve our own practices. Goodness knows we need more people here who will do that, and since it is the country in which we live and vote, it really is the only one we can directly change with respect to environmental practices. China, we can only really help change indirectly by setting a good example, which as I'm sure you know, we most certainly are not doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 10:17 PM

Once upon a time in the Sahara Forest . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 09:23 PM

yep...and in the news today was a pregnant Right whale that was hit by a naval ship...and I read that there are only 300-400 left after 2-3 centuries of whaling. ....but if the Salmon can't breed, we can always eat seaweed.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Mudlark
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 09:16 PM

Too many people, too little conservation. Seems to me it begats just about every environmental catastrophe, one way or another, ....except Mt. St. Helens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's the #1 Environmental Disaster??
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 09:08 PM

NPR quoted a representative of the Forest Products council...or some such name (some lumbering umbrella group) as being 'tentatively approving' of the announcement. They can't see past the end of the whirring blade of their chain saw! If there was ONE tree left, they'd find an excuse to cut it...and bid for the right!

Maybe this is Washington's & Oregon's reproof for voting for Kerry...

I do not know why it has to be this way...I simply do NOT know why we elect people who we KNOW will be so stupid, greedy and short-sighted!

The list of idiocies grows


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