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Obit: More Muslim intolerance?

Greg F. 11 Oct 11 - 11:30 AM
Sawzaw 11 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Oct 11 - 02:56 AM
Sawzaw 07 Oct 11 - 12:39 AM
Wolfgang 26 Jul 05 - 04:59 AM
Wolfgang 28 Jun 05 - 11:33 AM
CarolC 28 Jun 05 - 11:21 AM
GUEST 22 Jun 05 - 11:22 AM
Wolfgang 22 Jun 05 - 11:16 AM
John MacKenzie 01 Jun 05 - 03:42 PM
Wolfgang 01 Jun 05 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 06 Apr 05 - 01:24 PM
GUEST 21 Mar 05 - 02:58 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 05 - 12:46 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 05 - 12:37 PM
John MacKenzie 21 Mar 05 - 11:51 AM
robomatic 21 Mar 05 - 09:26 AM
Wolfgang 21 Mar 05 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 20 Mar 05 - 02:55 PM
CarolC 19 Mar 05 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 19 Mar 05 - 06:19 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 05 - 04:41 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Mar 05 - 03:47 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Mar 05 - 03:25 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,CarolC 18 Mar 05 - 02:36 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,CarolC 18 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Giok 18 Mar 05 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,CarolC 18 Mar 05 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Ooh-aah2 18 Mar 05 - 04:57 AM
CarolC 16 Mar 05 - 11:01 AM
Wolfgang 16 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 16 Mar 05 - 04:02 AM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 04:02 PM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM
CarolC 14 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 03:31 PM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM
CarolC 14 Mar 05 - 03:11 PM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,CarolC 14 Mar 05 - 11:55 AM
Wolfgang 14 Mar 05 - 04:31 AM
CarolC 14 Mar 05 - 12:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:30 AM

He said he'd do it again if he could and that he would kill more critics of Islam if he ever was released.

Kinda like the "Christians"[sic] who gun dowm abortion providers, eh?


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM

The law makes it a crime punishable by death to insult Islam

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- A Pakistani court has suspended the death sentence of Mumtaz Qadri, a security guard who killed a liberal politician over the latter's remarks on the nation's controversial blasphemy law.

"Qadri was provoked by the governor and should therefore be tried for murder, not an act of terror which is what he was tried for earlier" said his attorney Raja Shuja Ur Rehman in confirming the judge's decision.

Earlier this month, a terror court in the garrison city of Rawalpindi, near Pakistan's capital, sentenced Qadri to death. The Islamabad High Court suspended the sentence Tuesday until the appeals process is complete.

The court did not say when it will meet again to consider the case.

Police said Qadri, a policeman serving as a security guard for Punjab Gov. Salman Taseer, fatally shot him in a market in Islamabad on January 4 because of Taseer's remarks on Pakistan's controversial blasphemy law.

Police said Qadri confessed to gunning down the man he was supposed to be protecting.

Qadri's lawyer appealed the sentence imposed by the Anti-Terrorist Court, saying the court did not have the jurisdiction to make the death penalty decision.

Taseer, a successful businessman as well as politician, had said Pakistan's controversial blasphemy law is too harsh.

The law makes it a crime punishable by death to insult Islam, the Quran or the Prophet Mohammed. The legislation has been criticized by some as being used to entrap minorities


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 02:56 AM

More on this story.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/mar/20/afghanistan.islam


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 12:39 AM

"There ain't no religions that instructs people to go out and do dumbass stuff...

None..."

None? Nada? Non?

Shariah law states that any Muslim who rejects Islam should be sentenced to death, according to Ahmad Fahim Hakim, deputy chairman of the state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. Repeated attempts to impose a jail sentence were barred.

The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said he had offered to drop the charges if Mr Rahman converted back to Islam, but he refused. "He would have been forgiven if he changed back. But he said he was a Christian and would always remain one," Mr Wasi said. "We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty."

A Christian aid worker in Kabul, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said there was no reliable figure for the number of Afghan Christians. He said few admit their faith because of fear of retribution and there are no known Afghan churches. An old house in a war-wrecked suburb of Kabul serves as a Christian place of worship for expatriates. The only other churches are believed to be inside foreign embassies or on bases belonging to the US-led coalition or a Nato peacekeeping force


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Subject: RE: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 04:59 AM

Today was the day of the sentence for van Gogh's murderer: Life (the highest sentence in the Netherlands)

The judge called it a crime done out of a religiously motivated hate.

The murderer, Mohammed Bouyeri, was completely remorseless and declined any attempt of a defense. He said he'd do it again if he could and that he would kill more critics of Islam if he ever was released.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:33 AM

Thanks for that link. More background information in the Guardian:

Final act of rape case puts Pakistan on trial

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:21 AM

Pakistan's Supreme Court orders rearrest of 13 men in high-profile gang rape

"ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) - Pakistan's Supreme Court has ordered the rearrest of 13 men acquitted of gang-raping a villager whose case has drawn international attention to the sometimes harsh treatment of women in parts of this deeply conservative country, officials said Tuesday.

The ruling came a day after the victim, Mukhtar Mai, in a dramatic appearance at the Supreme Court, appealed a lower court decision to acquit five of the men who allegedly raped her on orders of a council of village elders. The eight members of the council, an influential force in rural Pakistan, were acquitted three years ago..."


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:22 AM

Ah good this thread appears to have been heavily pruned.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:16 AM

Yesterday I was reading an article about similar occurances in Pakistan. Tribal councils were giving punishments to men that involved committing crimes against women. One of these was a case of a man who had committed sexual indscretions with a woman. The tribal council decided that the man's punishment would be that his sister would be gang-raped.    A Pakistani court has given a death sentence to the men who committed the gang-rape. I don't know if I would support the death penalty for such crimes, but maybe the government of your country needs to be a little bit more like that of Pakistan on these issues, Wolfgang. (Carol)

Here's a recent follow-up to this story:

Ban on rape victim leaving Pakistan

The rapists are free, meanwhile, BTW. US foreign secretary Rice has made clear to her Pakistani colleague that the USA expects that Ms. Mukhtaran Bibi may travle freely. That's a move by the US government I wholeheartedly agree with.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:42 PM

Thought provoking
Giok


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:30 PM

A Critic Accuses Islam
An article translated from German about Hirsi Ali, often mentioned in this thread.

Excerpts from an interview (yesterday) with her (my translation):
Q: Have you lost friends?

Well, first of all my family. The distance to my parents is very big. And I have Muslim friends who have told me: Because of your critique of Islam, we don't want to see you any longer. But I would have lost them anyway...
Q: But you make yourself easy game for your critics by indicating that aggressivity and hate are not fundamentalist aberrations but part of Islam itself.
By all means, I also point to the good sides of Mohammed's sermon, however, in the sources of Islam you can find things unreconcilable with a liberal democracy...There are passages in the Koran admonishing to peace and passages admonishing to fight with non-Muslims....
Q: ...What do you say...about the US soldiers in Abu Ghraib...and about Guantanamo?
These are awful scandals and human rights violation that a country as the USA shouldn't commit...In no way I want to be brought into any connection with these things. I don't want to humilate anyone. I want to think aloud about the values under which I have been educated.
Q: Many Muslims consider the film 'Submission' as an insult.
I take a quote from the Koran according to which women are to be dominated (subjugated) by men and write it on the body of a battered woman. I point to the humilated woman...
Q: You see, like Irshad Manji, a central role for women in this educational process.
Meanwhile there are so many women who had the chance of a good education and to lead a life of self determination. We have the obligation to take care that there is no backlash, that this type of life cannot be refused to some women for religious reasons....
Q: You now work on a book titled 'Shortcuts to Enlightenment'.
The shortcuts mean to make use of the developments the West has already made. Islam doesn't have to restart at zero. Muslims always say that is haram, forbidden by the religion. Well, I say, you fly the planes developed in the West, you drive theior cars, use radio, TV, and internet. Why do you adopt only the material and not also a few of the intellectual values?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 01:24 PM

A busline interrupted since 1947 is planned to reopen tomorrow. It links the Indian and the Pakistan part of Kashmere. Muslim terrorists have published the names and full addresses of all the first passengers and have threatened: "You will pay with your blood and your ashes".

Today there has been an attack upon the tourist office in which the passengers wait.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 02:58 PM

Are You a "Right-Fighter"?


Do you find yourself needing to "win" arguments? Do people ask you why you always have to be right? Does conflict you engage in typically end with you having the last word, but no one feels good about the argument? If you have said yes to any of these questions, you are likely a right-fighter!

A right-fighter is someone who needs to win arguments. To be seen as right, you also NEED to make someone else seem wrong. A right-fighter gets overly emotional or angry when people do not agree with them and their opinions or beliefs. A right-fighter is someone who insists on having the last word in an argument or refuses to back down no matter what.


People who are right-fighters, (or those who are driven by the need to be right), have their value or worth literally attached to the outcome of being right. The "right-fighter" desperately believes (unconsciously) that others must agree with her to feel ok about him/herself.
   
Right-Fighting is an acceptable form of violence or aggression. Because the right-fighting pattern usually ends up one sided and includes a winner and a loser, the effects are similar to those of physical abuse. Learned submission on the part of the children and often the other parent/spouse is inevitable. "Right-Fighting" is in fact a form of emotional abuse.

If you have found that you may have some qualities of a right- fighter, don't start beating yourself up, begin working on it! You are a wonderful and lovable person with far more positive qualities than negative... this is certain! This habit does NOT have to define you. You are capable of releasing this habit at any time (please seek help if you need it, a partner in change is always a wonderful gift to yourself and your family!). Acknowledging your habit of right-fighting and becoming aware when you are engaging in this habit is the first, most important step in leading a more successful and happy life.

"Right-fighters": Begin to gently remind yourself of your unchanging value and worth during arguments and disagreements, whether or not you fully believe it. "Fake it till you make it"! Begin to imagine what conflict would be like if the outcome was not important. Begin to allow others to hold one opinion and you another without having ill or hurt feelings. What would life be like to be loved, cared for and respected rather than being "right"? Try validating others' opinions as equally valuable. This doesn't mean you must agree, only to say "yes" you and your view are as valuable as mine". I promise you, peace will begin to flow into your life.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 12:46 PM

Here's a link about the documentary:

Mum, I'm a Muslim


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 12:37 PM

In the meantime, I was watching a documentary about discrimination and hate as practiced against Muslims in England the other day. The documentary follows four Muslim women in England and showed what kinds of challenges they were facing. All four of them were (white) English women who had converted to Islam on their own, and they all were facing having to deal with the way Muslims are treated in many western countries, especially problems of hatred and discrimination directed against women who wear a hijab.

One of the women ended up moving with her husband and children to Yemen because she didn't want her children to have to grow up in the climate of hatred against Muslims that they were experiencing in England.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:51 AM

When an Indian man told Wadud that he understood racism, she replied, "No you don't understand. You are not Black; you don't know what it is to be Black."

Was it just me, or did this remark make anyone else think twice about this woman? [Just the woman CarolC not her religion!]

Giok


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:26 AM

I remember reading "The Life of Malcolm X" and he seemed to draw great comfort from the color blindness of Islam. Wolgang's link and some experiences of my own indicate that Malcolm's opinions on the issue were sadly ill informed.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:18 AM

Amina Wadud was the first woman ever to lead a Muslim Friday prayer last week. Three mosques had turned down the request to open the doors for the event. One other place shied back after a bomb threat, so the Muslim prayer was held in a church. The reaction was predictable: sin and apostasy called it a (female) Egyptian professor for Islamic law, a crimepunishable with death according to some interpretations.

Islam needs more of the courage and stance of this admirable woman. To get an idea what she's up against you can read this:

I am a Nigger, and you will just have to put up with my blackness

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 02:55 PM

Let's hope theyve plenty of time to spare and a bottle of asprin handy.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 01:47 PM

I stopped calling you a bigot a long time ago, Ooh-Aa2. I told you before why I was engaging in that level of dialogue... I got tired of seeing you abuse me and people I care about in the forum generally, and I handed some of it back to you so you could see what it looks like coming from someone else.

And I am perfectly aware of the fact that others besides us can read our posts. In fact, I'm counting on it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:19 AM

"You know nothing about my self-doubt or lack of it."

Snap! But it won't stop you calling me a bigot.

"Wolfgang and Ooh-Aah2 are resorting to the cyber equivalent of playground taunts."

Balls.

You are forgetting that our posts are there for anyone to read, along with your garbled, interminable, over-prolific and often hilariously incoherent replies. Your posts have brought non-sequiturs, fudges, distortions, evasions and ad hominem to a new high (or low). I'm not cross - my sister is much the same - but amused.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 04:41 PM

...meanwhile, Wolfgang and Ooh-Aah2 are resorting to the cyber equivalent of playground taunts. Intelligent and unbiased responses my arse.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM

You know nothing about my self doubt or lack of it. All you know is how I have responded to what people have put in this thread. If we are going to go by what people have put in this thread, we could say exactly the same about you and your lack of self doubt as well.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:47 PM

It is your lack of self doubt I find so attractive


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM

A careful scan of which posts you have agreed with and which posts you have criticized ought to give an objective indication of whether I am right or wrong, Mr. MacKenzie, regardless of the relative openness or lack of openness of my mind.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:25 PM

Nice to know you're so open minded


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM

Not bloody likely, John 'Giok' MacKenzie. You welcome responses that are in agreement with your point of view.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM

I welcome all intelligent and unbiased responses.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:36 PM

My experience has been that people who only see and/or hear one side of an issue, regardless of how intelligent and independent-minded they are or may be, frequently only know about one side of the issue. I'm sure some people will check things out for themselves. But I also know from experience that many will not. If you don't want anybody to respond to what you post here, I suggest you not post it in a public forum where responses are possible. Otherwise, you're stuck with whatever responses you get.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM

You must have a very low opinion of the intelligence of you fellow Mudcatters if you think they will be influenced by what I and others write here. They are I find, mostly intelligent people with minds of their own, and are unlikely to swayed by rhetoric, either yours or mine. Not only that they are usually tolerant of other people's point of view, as they know they do not have the monopoly on 'right on' points of view.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

I'm not trying to change your thinking, nor am I trying to change that of Ooh-Aa2, or Wolfgang. I'm just showing that there are other possible ways of looking at things in the hopes of reducing the amount of damage done by your activities, and those of Ooh-Aa2 and Wolfgang.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 01:21 PM

Well anyone who thinks they can change other people's prejudices by continually telling them their thinking is wrong, has not learned the lessons of history. It doesn't work with kids, it hasn't worked in Israel or Northern Ireland, and it won't work with anyone else. Conditioning is only changed by self awareness, and the word 'self' says it all. It's a bit like when most people ask for your opinion on something, what they are looking for is confirmation of their own thoughts on the matter, and if you don't agree then they discount what you said. So as with so many opinions expressed here, it is just a waste of breath.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 01:11 PM

You're fooling yourself, Ooh-Aah2. You and Wolfgang are saying the same thing over and over and over, with only slight differences in wording and new anecdotes to make the same old point. That's why I keep making the same response over and over again. I'm just reponding to your same tired old agenda each time. I didn't start this thread, and everything I have posted to it is in response to someone else.

Anyway, Wolfgang, of all people ought to understand the concept of conditioning. I don't care what either of you think about what I post. What you are doing is conditioning people to have a certain mindset about a specific group of people by repeatedly exposing them to negative (and stereotyped) images, anecdotes, and narratives about that group, over and over and over and over, ad nauseum. If I succeed in interrupting this process of conditioning by responding with another point of view each time you do that, I will have accomplished my goal.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,Ooh-aah2
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 04:57 AM

Not really.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:01 AM

But one that cuts both ways, boys.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Half and half. First time intentionally, all the other times not.

Wolfgang (smile)


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:02 AM

A point neatly made Wolfgang! (intentionally or not).


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 04:02 PM

Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate. (Peter Speetjens)

What he writes fits well into my thoughts already posted in this thread:

one reason that... the Muslim preachers find open ears among young Muslims in Germany is that for far too many years we have treated them as second class citizens who will go away sooner or later. Treat someone as a second class person with no real chance to make his way in our society and he may start to listen to extreme propaganda.

recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate. (Peter Speetjens)

What he writes fits well into my thoughts already posted in this thread:

one reason that... the Muslim preachers find open ears among young Muslims in Germany is that for far too many years we have treated them as second class citizens who will go away sooner or later. Treat someone as a second class person with no real chance to make his way in our society and he may start to listen to extreme propaganda.

recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM

Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate. (Peter Speetjens)

What he writes fits well into my thoughts already posted in this thread:

one reason that... the Muslim preachers find open ears among young Muslims in Germany is that for far too many years we have treated them as second class citizens who will go away sooner or later. Treat someone as a second class person with no real chance to make his way in our society and he may start to listen to extreme propaganda.

recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM

Can someone please stop me reposting the same post?

W.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:31 PM

Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate. (Peter Speetjens)

What he writes fits well into my thoughts already posted in this thread:

one reason that... the Muslim preachers find open ears among young Muslims in Germany is that for far too many years we have treated them as second class citizens who will go away sooner or later. Treat someone as a second class person with no real chance to make his way in our society and he may start to listen to extreme propaganda.

recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM

Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate. (Peter Speetjens)

What he writes fits well into my thoughts already posted in this thread:

one reason that... the Muslim preachers find open ears among young Muslims in Germany is that for far too many years we have treated them as second class citizens who will go away sooner or later. Treat someone as a second class person with no real chance to make his way in our society and he may start to listen to extreme propaganda.

recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM

Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate. (Peter Speetjens)

What he writes fits well into my thoughts already posted in this thread:

one reason that... the Muslim preachers find open ears among young Muslims in Germany is that for far too many years we have treated them as second class citizens who will go away sooner or later. Treat someone as a second class person with no real chance to make his way in our society and he may start to listen to extreme propaganda.

recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:11 PM

Yes, I noticed that, Wolfgang. In my opinion, that is the sort of discussion that will help to bring the various sides together in cooperation to try to find solutions to the problems, rather the current trend of promoting conflict between groups that we see in many countries lately.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:00 PM

Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate. (Peter Speetjens)

What he writes fits well into my thoughts already posted in this thread:

one reason that... the Muslim preachers find open ears among young Muslims in Germany is that for far too many years we have treated them as second class citizens who will go away sooner or later. Treat someone as a second class person with no real chance to make his way in our society and he may start to listen to extreme propaganda.

recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 11:55 AM

Here's a thoughtful article on the subject of the Van Gogh murder by a Dutch journalist who currently lives in Lebanon...

Van Gogh's murder brings out Holland's contradictions, By Peter Speetjens

From what this journalist says, it looks like even this event has complex ramifications as well as causes, and cannot be boiled down to a simplistic charge of "Muslim extremism". It looks to me like both sides of the issue are inflaming the other side. The populist anti-immigration people making life very difficult for the immigrant community just as much as the immigrant community bringing into the country questionable practices. Van Gogh's murderer was born in The Netherlands to a middle class family, and did not embrace any sort of extremist ideology until fairly recently...

"The average Dutchman feels confirmed in his stereotypes of Muslims, and this is good for politicians like the late Fortuyn or Hirsi Ali, as they use this to attract the public's vote. Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate.

Take van Gogh's killer Mohamed B. He is not a fundamentalist immigrant who recently came to Holland. He was born there to a middle class family, speaks fluent Dutch and finished high school. According to his teachers he was the kind of guy whom people liked, someone who would probably make it. He did not. Over a year ago, following his parents' divorce, he dropped out of university and came under the influence of a radical mosque in Amsterdam. "Why would I study?" he asked a friend; 'An American who doesn't speak a word of Dutch has more chance of finding a job than me.'"

Ironically, Hirsi Ali, having benefited herself from having the opportunity to emmigrate to The Netherlands, is now making it much more difficult for other women in her situation to do the same.

One other thing to try to keep in mind... when stereotypes are promoted about any group, it really is the most vulnerable members of that group who suffer the most. In some of my reading, I have come across websites for organizations that exist for the purpose of helping women escape from domestic violence. Some of these sites have said that one of the reasons more women from southeast Asia (India, Pakistan, etc.) don't come forward and report the domestic abuse, or try to leave the abusive situation, is fear of stereotyping. So Wolfgang, I agree that scrutiny is good. But scrutiny of the practices. Not one-sided scrutiny of the group in question. This does not help the most vulnerable members of the group.


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 04:31 AM

No separate school and, in particular, no separate courts, I couldn't agree more. If the recent demands from German Muslims for separate schools lead to a rethinking about privileges of the Christian churches, I'll be very happy.

The recent (in historical terms) mass immigrattion of Muslims to Europe leads to a cultural clash, because it is more more easy to move by a large physical distance than to move from one culturally based frame of mind to another. However, that's what we have to expect unless we want to give up our present state of human rights. On the other hand, we should not forget how hard the fight was for general human rights and how recent some changes.

For instance, only during my life time women in Germany were allowed to spend large amounts of money (that is more than buying food and small items of clothes) without asking the husband first. Even if the woman was the only one to earn the money she couldn't buy a car on her own without her husband's signature. A hoover would have been barely acceptable. So, the Muslim community in Germany might need some time to adapt. What worries me is that recently there seems to be a kind of backlash in second or third generation German Muslims.


equate severe spankings by some loony Christian with crowds of people stoning to death Muslim women (Ooh-Aah2)

Yes, that's the central point stated very clearly. I'm completely sure that within each religion you'll find abusive and murderous people, some of them even ready to excuse what they do with their personl view of religion. But the difference that warrants a look not only at the individual but at the religion is when the violation of human rights seems to be condoned by a quite large, perhaps even majority, percentage of followers of one religion. That is the central point that makes the teachings and practise of one religion, and not only of individuals the target of scrutiny.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: More Muslim intolerance?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:50 AM

I just read Ooh-Aa2's post again, and realized he thinks it's ok to spank a three year old child until it dies and its buttocks look like hamburger meat. Hmmmm...

CarolC's pathetic attempt to equate severe spankings by some loony Christian with crowds of people stoning to death Muslim women is certainly risible


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