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BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!

Joybell 13 Aug 04 - 07:37 AM
Peace 13 Aug 04 - 01:44 AM
Blackcatter 13 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM
Peace 13 Aug 04 - 12:42 AM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Aug 04 - 12:37 AM
JennyO 12 Aug 04 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Blackcatter 12 Aug 04 - 04:38 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM
Joybell 12 Aug 04 - 07:08 AM
Blackcatter 11 Aug 04 - 11:51 PM
Joybell 11 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Blackcatter 11 Aug 04 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Norton1 11 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM
Blackcatter 10 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM
Peace 10 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM
Irish sergeant 10 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM
Peace 10 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM
Nerd 10 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM
Nerd 10 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 04 - 11:46 AM
Blackcatter 10 Aug 04 - 11:25 AM
Stilly River Sage 10 Aug 04 - 11:09 AM
Steve Parkes 10 Aug 04 - 10:27 AM
Rapparee 10 Aug 04 - 10:20 AM
artbrooks 10 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM
Sandra in Sydney 10 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 04 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,Boab 10 Aug 04 - 03:52 AM
darkriver 10 Aug 04 - 02:40 AM
Blackcatter 09 Aug 04 - 11:30 PM
HuwG 09 Aug 04 - 10:10 PM
GUEST 09 Aug 04 - 08:34 PM
Jim Dixon 09 Aug 04 - 08:08 PM
Metchosin 09 Aug 04 - 07:45 PM
Amos 09 Aug 04 - 07:33 PM
Metchosin 09 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM
Peace 09 Aug 04 - 05:32 PM
jeffp 09 Aug 04 - 05:22 PM
CarolC 09 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 09 Aug 04 - 05:17 PM
Rapparee 09 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM
PoppaGator 09 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM
Peace 09 Aug 04 - 04:50 PM
CarolC 09 Aug 04 - 04:40 PM
Blackcatter 09 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM
CarolC 09 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Aug 04 - 02:12 PM
CarolC 09 Aug 04 - 01:59 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:37 AM

Yes Aussie's Ok. Here my True-love is sometimes called "Septic" (rhyming slang for Yank from Septic Tank) which is also used as a term of affection. Soon he'll have dual citizenship which will make him a "Septic Aussie" I guess. Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:44 AM

Hey, fella, we invented the NHL. That's probably BS, but hey, it sounds good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM

What do you call them when they're not in the NHL?

By the way, should that be the IHL? As in International? Or is Canada considered to be the 51st state in the NHL?


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:42 AM

Canucks is what we call the Vancouver hockey team in the NHL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:37 AM

"Aussie" also has never had any racial overtones.

"Kiwi" is a mostly affectionate term used by Aussies for New Zealanders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:43 PM

it's absolutely fine by me, Blackcatter. I don't think any of us will mind. It's not used here as a derogatory term.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:38 PM

Nothing but the best of Aussie school kids.

By the way, I've never asked, is "Aussie" an ok term? I mean do Australians use it, are they bothered by it, etc.?


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

Bundy O.P. - of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:08 AM

And a bottle of rum! Yo Ho Ho!


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:51 PM

har, har ye maties!


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM

We live on an old school property with a little one-room school. John Howard hasn't offered us a flag yet (which we'd have to pay for of course and add a plaque saying he did. See Foolestroope above), but if he does we'll get ourselves a Jolly Roger. Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:09 PM

Who should be punished are those people who fly the flag in an inappropriate manner - and not as a protest statement.

Any one who flies it at night without a light on it.

Anyone who flies a battered flag on a regular basis (one that was battered, torn, etc. simply by the fact that they've been flying it too long.

Anyone who uses the flag as clothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM

The VFW, American Legion, Marine Corps League, Vietnam Veterans of America, and about any other veterans service organization I know of will do the same thing, as what happened on Pocatello's campus, for any space for free. Each year these groups donate millions of dollars worth of time, and money, into civic projects.

And they force no one to do anything. Just a bunch of us old guys attempting to keep the symbol of our country aloft. I don't think we condemn any of you for your belief nor do we ask that you participate. It's our social donation in the name of those we believe fell for our freedoms. And we don't even ask that you agree with that.

And yes that cam is of my one of my old alma maters at Pocafella. 1969 - vo-tech - Machine Shop.

Rapaire moved there a year or so ago and is a welcome addition to our fine state. Although I've not met him personally I've certainly enjoyed his moderated and well thought out posts here.

God Bless
Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

Rant away I.S.!

Once again:

Liberals want to preserve people's rights and allow they the ability to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

Conservatives want to restrict those rights they dislike and force upon everyone those they like.

It doesn't matter if you're Democrat, Republican, Green, Socialist, Libertarian or whatever. If you work to restrict my right to L, L, & PoH, I will fight you tooth and nail.

Are there somethings that should be restricted? Sure, the young, the mentally challenged and convicted felons should not have all the rights of the rest of the people since they may/do not have the capacity to make correct descisions about their and other people's safety. Other items that are so completely dangerous (such as bombs, WMD, tanks, etc should be off limits too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

Irish Sergeant,

Please allow me to rant along with you. If I am asked politely, I am very easy to get along with. As soon as I am ordered to do things, my first response tends to be along the lines of "And who the fu#k are YOU?" That has got me in trouble since I was in grade 2. I am now 56 years old and I still feel the same way. They tried to beat it out of me and it didn't work. I had three teachers over the years who realized all they had to do was ask politely. I have had some excellent principals too. They always asked and they usually got. The ones who told me that I would do also got. But the two different types of principals didn't 'got' the same thing. This "Thou shalt" crap is too heavy handed. Rant over.

PS I do not at all mind facing the flag of my country, and I would not think of staying seated while the national anthem is played. But when I am ordered to do it, I tend to do it only in my mind and look at the flag from the corner of my eye. I guess it's in the way a thing is said. Rant over again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM

While I for one, have no qualms about saying the pledge of Allegience or having a flag in every classroom, I do have huge qualms when people like the pea wits in Florida who feel they have to ram their view of patriotism down the throats of others. i fought to defend the constitution of the United States of America, not some perverted vision of what the right wing reactionaries want the constitution to say. Irish Sergeant (on a rant yet again)


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM

Mark Twain said that "literature is the stuff everybody talks about and nobody reads." Replace literature with law. The edict that people WILL fly a flag and go from there really grates my nuts. A request would have been much better. I teach in a Catholic school. When I was told I WOULD say the Lord's Prayer every day with my class I did not. I said it in my head, because I like the prayer. This is the reason I was sent to the principal's office so ofetn when I was young. Now, I am old, and I still get sent to the principal's office.

And where they make a desert they call it peace. Tacitus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

Well, artbrooks, it does, but it says that the general administrator of a government department can mandate minor adjustments. It does not give that power to the legislature, but keeps it in the executive branch. I don't think adjusting 1.9:1 to 3:2 can be considered a MINOR adjustment, nor do I think the legislature would have the power to mandate it if it WERE plausibly considered minor.

One of the problems is that this EO seems only to apply to actual offices of the government, which schools are not. If it IS extended to schools, it seems from this order that, before allowing other sizes, the secretary of education, or at least someone in the state department of education, would have to authorize the adjustment. Perhaps that has already been done for Florida schools prior to this legislation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

Rapaire:

Time from request to erection...was about three weeks

well, those American Legion guys ARE mainly seniors...

Sorry! Couldn't resist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:46 AM

Congratulations Bee-dubya-ell, on your possession of what seems to be one of the few unwashed brains between Seattle and New Orleans!

That's rather unfortunate for Bee-dubya-ell, since the rest of his body is quite a bit to the east of what lies between Seattle and New Orleans.

You're not just doing to the flag and the flag is just a physical symbol. Call it idolatry, if you wish, but no one is worshipping the flag in this case.

Then they can just leave out the bit about "pledging allegiance to the flag", and stop having people stand facing the flag with their hand over the left side of their chest. As long as that part is in there, people like me will have problems with it.

How about this... "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic it serves, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:25 AM

Great story Rapaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:09 AM

Rapaire, are you in Pocatello? Can we see your library and flag in this web cam?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:27 AM

FWIW, here in England, we recently had a ginormous St George's flag on the side of the old Fort Dunlop building in Birmingham, placed where everyone could see it from the M6 motorway. The reason for this rather un-English outburst of patriotic histrionics (histrionic patriotism?) was the (then) forthcoming soccer World Cup. Motorists flew flags (often more than one) from their cars; taxi drivers were told not to fly them, as it might upset Muslims (duh???), and Muslims of course said they were not offended, in fact many Muslims were flying them too.

I can't understand why people get so worked up about soccer, but they do, and I don't mind at all. But then nobody here tries to force soccer on everyone. You may not be aware, but we Brits have a constition. it's much bigger than your US Constitution, and most people don't know what it says. (It includes things like the monarch can't marry a Roman Caholic, and no-one married to a RC can become monarch. Nothng about an Englishman's home being his castle, and nothing about soccer, AFAIK.)

Dr Johnson said "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." As a true-blue Briton himself, he was denigrating scoundrels, and not dissing patriots. Like every nation, we have a lot to be ashamed of. But there's quite a bit for us -- and you Americans -- to be proud of too. Let's try and remember which is which.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:20 AM

Heck, we didn't have a flagpole at the Library. Being a public building and all, I figgered we should have one. Didn't have any money for it, so I called the local American Legion.

We got the Parks & Recreation department to pour a base for it and the AL made it. I mean, they constructed it, built it out of pipe and such. Up on top, for that brass ball you see -- they stuck a toilet tank float that they'd polished. Time from request to erection of the pole was about three weeks; the Legion donated the first flag, and on Armistice Day we dedicated the thing.

Cost to us: zero (except for a couple of local phone calls and a piece fo ground about 3 x 3 feet). Benefits: we got some support for the Library from a section of the local community nobody thought of before -- a part with some political clout, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM

The EO on US flag proportions does not mandate 1:1.9-see Section 24 in the link above...oh, heck, here it is again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM

& while waiting for the chq. the school does without essentials, if they are a poor state school or a small private religious school.

However if they are one of the large rich private religious (or secular) school with enormous government funding, they don't even notice the cost.

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 06:37 AM

Johnnie Howard has apparently been faithfully taking the Bush tablets.

Australian Schools now have to fly the Aussie flag to get Federal Funding.

The Govt has decreed that $1500 will be made available to put up a flagpole for each school - but the funding seems to be a little short on one for every school...

But:

First you have to raise the money yourself to get the flagpole installed.
Then you have to submit a form requesting reimbursement.
Then you have to pay for and affix an approved plaque that says that the flagpole was donated by the Howard Federal Govt.
Then it has to be "approved".
Then just wait for the cheque...

Insert here all the previous stuff about schools not having sufficient funding in the first place...

Robin

I'm not making this up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:52 AM

Congratulations Bee-dubya-ell, on your possession of what seems to be one of the few unwashed brains between Seattle and New Orleans!


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: darkriver
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:40 AM

Here is the largest US flag ever. It was plastered to the outside of the building where I work, a few days after 9/11/01, by my boss.

doug


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 11:30 PM

"I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

You're not just doing to the flag and the flag is just a physical symbol. Call it idolatry, if you wish, but no one is worshipping the flag in this case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 10:10 PM

From the Two Ronnies (BBC comedy show, some years ago):

"The longest trial in recent British history has just ended at the Old Bailey. Apparently, when the chief prosecution witness took the oath, he held the card in his right hand, and read aloud what was in the Bible."


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:34 PM

Bobert, that stupid gigantic flag still flies over Midlothian Tpk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:08 PM

Many Quakers also refuse to pledge allegiance to the flag. I can't say this is an official doctrine of the Quakers, because Quakers don't have any official doctrines or creeds. There probably are some Quaker kids who DO say the Pledge, or go through the motions, just because they don't want to make a fuss or stand out from the crowd, and I don't think Quakers would condemn them for doing it, but I think they would support anyone who refused to say the Pledge.

See Friends Statements on the Pledge of Allegiance


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:45 PM

It could have been more binding Amos, but it was an abridged copy. LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:33 PM

I think pledging Allegiance on a dictionary would be much more binding than doing so on a Bible.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM

Still makes me laugh, but years ago, when I became a federal civil servant, I had to swear allegiance to the Queen on a Bible. The government had not supplied the lab where I worked with a Bible and superiors hadn't thought to bring a personal copy, so I was sworn in on a dictionary, reversed so that the title was not obvious.

As a Canadian, pledging allegiance to a flag seems so very foreign, but then again, so did pledging allegiance to the Queen. In fact, come to think of it, the only thing that did seem quite right about the whole thing was the use of the dictionary .


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:32 PM

SRS: What CarolC said.

www.cnduk.org/INFORM~1/symbol.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: jeffp
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:22 PM

Stilly, the nuclear disarmament symbol that Brucie was talking about is the one we know as the peace sign, you know, the one that looks sort of like the Mercedes logo with an extra bit pointing straight down. It was born in the UK and formed by the semaphore for N and D, meaning nuclear disarmament. (Anybody that was there please feel invited to correct anything that needs it.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM

SRS, I think it's what we here in the US call the "peace sign" or the "ban the bomb" sign. Circle with an upside-down Y with three tines instead of two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:17 PM

Far as I know, the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only religious group that refuse to salute the flag because it's idolatry. And far as I know it's the only part of their religion I agree with.

CarolC (09 Aug 04 - 04:40 PM ) got it right.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM

Actually, flying the flag or flags in front of the Library or City Hall or the Federal Courthouse, etc. isn't a bad idea -- it marks them as public buildings.

I might even put a US and Idaho flag set in my office. As a PR flack down in Kentucky told me, if you ever have the media interviewing you on something that might be bad or embarassing, put the flags behind you and, if possible, a picture of Washington, Lincoln, or both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM

I'm sure that the VFW did *not* lobby for this regulation. I'm equally sure that some profit-seeking flag manufacturer had something to do with it. Why else "require" that perfectly good flags -- which already exist in most if not all American classrooms -- be replaced with flags conforming to an arbitrary measurement?


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM

CarolC--we are in agreement there. The constitution is the thing that makes or breaks the U.S., not the flag. The "under god" bit was put in with a shoehorn 50 years ago in a bit of a rush (we've covered that before on Mudcat). Here's a link (from a group called "Religious Tolerance.org")

Symbols like the swastika were appropriated from earlier cultures and had far different meanings, but those are probably forever lost, at least in the West, due to the heavy baggage that went with the most modern usage by Hitler.

Brucie, do you have any links to the nuclear disarmament symbol you're speaking of?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:50 PM

Symbols are very powerful. They provoke feelings that cannot be rationalized right off. I feel angry when I see a swastika, and I smile when I see the nuclear disarmament sign. Jung spoke to this, and countries have picked up on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:40 PM

I'd have a problem pledging alegiance to a flag whether or not the pledge contained the word "God" in it. I don't agree with the idea of pledging allegiance to a flag. Now the Constitution would be another thing altogether. I would not have any problem pledging allegiance to or, perhaps more appropriately, support for the Constitution of the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM

But they don't see it as flag-worship. They see it as honoring the country. I really don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the pledge, because of the "under god", but as for having the flag, that's ok.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM

"I can't help but think that the folks who want this flags firmly in place are the same ones who want school prayer to be part of the curriculum."

That's what puzzles me. You'd think those would be the very people who'd recognise flag-worship as a kind of idolatry, and who'd be determined to fight it to the death. More especially so long as reverencing "the flag" isn't even accompanied by any kind of prayer.

What I'd have expected woudl have been that they'd be saying that, so long as there is no place in schools for prayers and religious symbols, there should be no place for any lesser symbols such as flags.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM

hahahaha...

It's a very nice flag, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 02:12 PM

CarolC:

Did you have to do that?

It's a pain having to stand while I'm keying

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:59 PM

Is this your flag, Nigel Parsons?


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