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BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!

Jack the Sailor 29 Jul 04 - 11:51 PM
Amos 29 Jul 04 - 11:56 PM
Deckman 29 Jul 04 - 11:58 PM
Bill D 30 Jul 04 - 12:37 AM
Joe Offer 30 Jul 04 - 12:59 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 30 Jul 04 - 01:00 AM
michaelr 30 Jul 04 - 01:03 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 01:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 30 Jul 04 - 01:32 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 01:45 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 01:51 AM
C-flat 30 Jul 04 - 02:49 AM
Ellenpoly 30 Jul 04 - 04:12 AM
kendall 30 Jul 04 - 07:10 AM
Big Mick 30 Jul 04 - 07:17 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 30 Jul 04 - 08:45 AM
Amos 30 Jul 04 - 08:57 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 09:17 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,TIA 30 Jul 04 - 09:34 AM
Peter T. 30 Jul 04 - 09:38 AM
Rapparee 30 Jul 04 - 09:54 AM
Amos 30 Jul 04 - 10:17 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,MMario 30 Jul 04 - 10:41 AM
Nerd 30 Jul 04 - 10:41 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,TIA 30 Jul 04 - 11:12 AM
Bagpuss 30 Jul 04 - 11:19 AM
maire-aine 30 Jul 04 - 11:46 AM
Jeri 30 Jul 04 - 11:58 AM
SINSULL 30 Jul 04 - 12:05 PM
Amos 30 Jul 04 - 12:12 PM
Don Firth 30 Jul 04 - 12:52 PM
Bill D 30 Jul 04 - 01:08 PM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 30 Jul 04 - 01:30 PM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 01:45 PM
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SINSULL 30 Jul 04 - 01:55 PM
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Big Mick 30 Jul 04 - 02:27 PM
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GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 02:47 PM
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SINSULL 30 Jul 04 - 03:29 PM
GUEST 30 Jul 04 - 03:30 PM
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Bill Hahn//\\ 30 Jul 04 - 08:18 PM
Big Mick 30 Jul 04 - 09:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 30 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM
Bobert 30 Jul 04 - 09:49 PM
GUEST,Pondering lt All 30 Jul 04 - 10:27 PM
Bill D 30 Jul 04 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 30 Jul 04 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 30 Jul 04 - 10:39 PM
Peace 30 Jul 04 - 11:03 PM
Nerd 31 Jul 04 - 01:12 AM
Jack the Sailor 31 Jul 04 - 01:33 AM
Nerd 31 Jul 04 - 01:58 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 09:36 AM
akenaton 31 Jul 04 - 10:35 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 10:44 AM
Peter T. 31 Jul 04 - 10:59 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 11:08 AM
Big Mick 31 Jul 04 - 11:11 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 11:15 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 11:22 AM
Jeri 31 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 11:38 AM
Big Mick 31 Jul 04 - 12:01 PM
Amos 31 Jul 04 - 12:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 31 Jul 04 - 01:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 31 Jul 04 - 01:11 PM
akenaton 31 Jul 04 - 01:38 PM
Big Mick 31 Jul 04 - 02:30 PM
michaelr 31 Jul 04 - 02:50 PM
Nerd 31 Jul 04 - 03:10 PM
Deda 31 Jul 04 - 03:22 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 04:08 PM
Amos 31 Jul 04 - 04:22 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 04:27 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 04 - 04:46 PM
Nerd 31 Jul 04 - 05:07 PM
Amos 31 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 01 Aug 04 - 03:25 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 01 Aug 04 - 03:31 AM
RichardP 01 Aug 04 - 10:42 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM
Amos 01 Aug 04 - 11:52 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 12:05 PM
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Thomas the Rhymer 01 Aug 04 - 12:50 PM
Amos 01 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM
Bill D 01 Aug 04 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 02:42 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 02:45 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 01 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM
akenaton 01 Aug 04 - 03:29 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM
Peter T. 01 Aug 04 - 04:08 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM
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Jack the Sailor 01 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM
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GUEST 01 Aug 04 - 06:55 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 01 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Larry K 02 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM
Jack the Sailor 02 Aug 04 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,To Don Firth from Jeremy Boles 02 Aug 04 - 02:43 PM
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Subject: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 11:51 PM

He was a much better speaker than I thought he would be. I have really enjoyed the process of the convention. I've learned a lot, I've changed some of my views. I feel a lot mmore optimistic about America and the World.

[quote]And let me say it plainly: in that cause, and in this campaign, we welcome people of faith. America is not us and them. I think of what Ron Reagan said of his father a few weeks ago, and I want to say this to you tonight: I don't wear my own faith on my sleeve. But faith has given me values and hope to live by, from Vietnam to this day, from Sunday to Sunday. I don't want to claim that God is on our side. As Abraham Lincoln told us, I want to pray humbly that we are on God's side. And whatever our faith, one belief should bind us all: The measure of our character is our willingness to give of ourselves for others and for our country.[/quote]


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 11:56 PM

He spoke well; I was pleased at how well he spoke, too! But what really brought home to me that he is a better man than I thought was listening to his two daughters' speeches -- they spoke with warmth, intelligence, clarity, heart and humanity, both of them, each in her own way. These two young women make their father shine in reflection, and they make the Bush twins look like vacuous space cadets by comparison. I was impressed.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 11:58 PM

YEP!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 12:37 AM

you mean, Joe Scarbourough was wrong? *grin* All his compatriots on the MSNBC panel told him he was all wet, be he kept saying that "Kerry was 'given' some good lines, but rushed thru them and didn't allow crowd reaction," etc....

For 3 more months, 'ol Joe will keep telling anyone who will listen that Kerry is a bad speaker, that he has no charisma, that he is not respected among many soldiers, that his hair is bad, that he eats the wrong brand of soup...etc.

(Yes, I tuned to MSNBC just to win a bet with myself)

Sorry, Joe, but Kerry spoke well, hit the points needed and made sure the country AND GW Bush knew where he was headed....

'twill be interesting


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 12:59 AM

I watched the speech on PBS (Public Broadcasting), and I really enjoyed it. I have to say that I wondered about the commentaries at the end. Yes, it was a very good speech, but all of the commentators had only positive things to say. It does make you wonder if PBS has balance.

I thought Kerry took ownership of the centrist position in his speech - many of the things he said were far to the right of my point of view. It will interesting to see where Bush puts himself - he may end up in the extreme right.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:00 AM

Hooray! ...I hope 'w' was watching!

...and now for the tsunami of negative attacks from the nay-faring bushmen... batton down the hatches... and full speed ahead!

Love your country, vote FOR Kerry.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:03 AM

C'mon you guys -- you mean to tell me that intelligent folks like you are falling for the feeble TV ad this convention obviously is?

The mealy-mouthed, wishy-washy party line being espoused in Boston shows clearly, once again, what spineless wimps the Washington Democratic Party really are. There is no platform, no agenda, no outrage, only a lot of hot air amounting to nothing more than a feel-good, empty commercial.

It was downright jarring to see and hear Dennis Kucinich deliver the same fiery speech he gave in the primaries -- only to have him veer off into a desperate "Courage America - Kerry will save us!"

If I didn't believe that ANYONE BUT BUSH is needed for president, I couldn't give a shit for Kerry, Edwards, and the whole cowardly and corrupt DNC.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:05 AM

This was the most nationalistic, militaristic convention I've ever seen.   All feel good, love fest, Ronnie Rayguns 'Morning in America' sort of crap.

At least we know who will win come November. The Republicrats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:32 AM

I think PBS does have balance. I heard the beginning of things on NPR (Linda Wertheimer and crew). In the living room I was watching most of it on CNN and they turned at the end to the head of the Republican National Committee for "a response." Well what the hell do they think the guy is going to say? I switched channels, where I saw the same guy on MSNBC who was mentioned above. That guy was blowing smoke, finding error where there was one, just because he has an audience and if he says something negative someone might listen to him and actually believe it.

It was John Kerry's night, just like in a few weeks it will be Dubya's [swan song] night. May the best man win!

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:45 AM

How come nobody talked about how bloody maudlin all that military sentimentalism crap was?


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:51 AM

My favorite bit was when Kerry talked about Bush lacking a plan for winning the peace in Iraq. The great irony of it all, is this was the criticism levelled by the man who is running for president without any plan for America's future.

But Kerry's the Anti-Bush, so we've gotta love him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: C-flat
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:49 AM

I've just heard him on U.K. morning radio and think that he sounded good but every sentence sounded like a sound-bite. I would be turned off by the way he constantly refers to his military past, his opening line: "John Kerry, reporting for duty!" was stuck there just to remind you that you're in the presence of a military hero.
Kerry looks like winning but anyone could run against Bush at the moment.
C-flat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:12 AM

I'm afraid that as soon as he saluted and said "Reporting for duty" I knew juat what to expect. Kerry's rhetoric was politic-speak.

I'll vote for the man, but I'm far too cynical at this point in the game to think it will change America if he does win.

For me, it's all about getting Bush out.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:10 AM

He has to counter the Bush lies about his record. Bush is a deserter so, naturally, he has to crap on Kerry's record.
These asshole who claim Kerry wasn't seriously wounded forget that in the tropics even a scratch can be life threatening. You don't get a purple heart from choking on a friggin' pretzel!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:17 AM

Folks with no frame of reference don't know that, Captain. It is easy to poo poo one's war experiences, when you have never experienced war. This man could have stayed home, as Clinton pointed out, but he went. Then when he came home, expressed the ultimate in patriotism by speaking out against the war.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:45 AM

Like others have said, Kerry ain't the guy I would have wanted, but he's the guy we get. But, being realistic, would a true pro-peace candidate stand a chance? Hell, the only real pro-peace presidential candidate ever to be nominated by a major party was George McGovern and he lost in a landslide to the only president in recent memory who may have been worse than Dubya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:57 AM

I don't think he is pro-war. I do think he is pro-strength. Bush is actively pro-war.
They overplayed his military past, but they also took pains to underscore his position on war -- only when we have to. I agree that "Reporting for duty" was an overdramatization, but it is possible coming out of his mouth that it actually meant what it said.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:17 AM

The propaganda was all military, all the time. Yet, no mention of how to get us out of Iraq. And of course, no mention of the Iraqi people themselves. Or Sudan. Or the Middle East at all.

And this is being billed by all the DLC/Kerry camp pundits as a speech that addresses major foreign policy issues.

Load of crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:22 AM

If he wasn't running against Bush, this guy would lose by a landslide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:34 AM

I didn't watch much of the convention, but I did see Joe Scarborough, Bill Bennet, Ann Coulter (fer chrissakes) and others of their persuasion providing commentary on the DN convention. Does this mean that the fair and balanced media will allow commentary on the RN con. by Al Franken, Maureen Dowd, Paul Krugman, or even Michael Moore? I'm holding my breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:38 AM

Not having a TV, I happened to be at a friend's and watched the evening for the hell of it. Scared the hell out of me, the complete saturation of American speech with war metaphors. All this sucking up to the military, Wesley Clark was the worst -- as if soldiers were gods. We are not too far from Seven Days in May: it will all become so corrupt that what we need is one of our shining soldiers to clean out these crooks. I kept wondering what Dwight Eisenhower would have said. Nothing.
yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:54 AM

I'm reminded of the song "Neck Deep In The Big Muddy." The Bushrat got us into a friggin' mess and someone has to get us out. Out, not with Nixon's "Peace With Honor" but out with the minimum number of casualties. And as every military tactician and strategist knows, a badly planned withdrawal can cost more deaths and wounded (civilian and military) than staying and fighting on. The Bushbaby ain't gonna do it -- he's made a mess and now other folks are going to have to clean it up. I don't know if Kerry's the person for it, but the Bushies SURE ain't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:17 AM

I've thought a lot about the things I heard. The guy who Kerry came back to save when he fell overboard, the Kerry girls, the people who have worked with him. I appreciate the way he handled the charge of being over-complex, the emphsasis on truth-telling, and behind the military rahrah, the fact the has shown courage on many occasions, as Bush has not. I liked his acknowledgement of the forming COnstitutional crisis and John Ashcroft's role in it.

My take on it is that John Kerry is a good man. He is slightly awkward sometimes, but I would rather have an awkward and brave person in office than a deft coward.

Of course, I have been disillusioned before on such matters.

I think the military color of the presentations, when it was there, was a political necessity. So I am willing to suspend judgement against Kerry on that account. His commitment is military strength but no miltary deployment unless it "has to be done". God only knows what that means in practice. BTW, Guest, you may have missed it, but he distinctly addressed the exit strategy for Iraq, at least in general terms. But I sincerely doubt he will engage in the kind of warmongering Cheney has committed using Bush. Bear in mind he is entering a major political race, and intending to win it.   

I hope he does and will try to help.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:28 AM

Oh yes, I missed the exit strategy. Don't keep us in suspense any longer now, Amos. What exactly IS the exit strategy of the Kerry/Edwards team, and when will be exiting?

And if we will be leaving soon, why did they promise more special forces recruitment? I notice Kerry said no BACK DOOR draft, but DIDN'T say NO DRAFT. Also, it looks like Kerry/Edwards will order us up some shiny new weapons systems too.

Looks like Christmas for the Pentagon to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:41 AM

of course there was the usual political fairy tales too - universal health benefits, lower drug costs, more education, child care, more and better paying jobs; halving the deficit; while at the same time increasing the milatary plus new weapons and equiptment for the military, 100% inspection of incoming container ships, etc.

and all of this while cutting taxes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:41 AM

The great thing about you, GUEST, is you prove that Kerry is doing exactly the right thing. You have made it clear here and elsewhere that you would not vote for him no matter what he said, because voting for a Democrat would disgust you. Therefore, he is absolutely right to completely ignore your concerns. He knows that the left fringe like you will never vote for him, that the less radical leftists will vote for him no matter what he says at the convention, and that he is therefore speaking primarily to a few people in the middle. Hence the empty talk of character and the military, which I agree is tiresome and indeed distasteful.

Before Dean's demise, I was one of those leftists who thought firing up our base with a more progressive message might get out more votes. But you have confirmed for me that the message strategy of Kerry is essentially correct; you would not have voted for any of the Democrats, so he simply couldn't get your vote no matter what he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:51 AM

Posted on Fri, Jul. 30, 2004

Dave Barry | Kerry's bark is aimed at undecideds

Kerry gave a solid speech expressing the clear, confident message: "I, Too, Am an Undecided Voter." This message was calculated to appeal to undecided voters, who, according to the polls, still aren't sure who, exactly, Kerry is, where he stands on the issues or whether he is, in fact, a carbon-based life form.

The speech ended with the traditional "balloon drop," which was slightly less festive than usual because the balloons, for security reasons, were not inflated.

(A Secret Service spokesperson explained: "Air contains nitrogen, which we have reason to believe is a chemical.")

Was Kerry's speech effective?

Well, the TV ratings for this convention, like those of all recent political conventions, have been horrible.

If they want people to watch these things, they're going to have to start making the speakers eat live cockroaches or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:12 AM

"I notice Kerry said no BACK DOOR draft, but DIDN'T say NO DRAFT"

Context - both verbal and situational - is important when listening or reading. A specific mention of backdoor draft is warranted because one currently exists. No mention of a regular draft does not imply an intent to create one. Instead, no mention may be necessary because one does not currently exist. For example, is it telling that Kerry did not promise that he would NOT require military personnel to fill their boots with lemon cream? Does this imply that he will require such? Oh my gosh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bagpuss
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:19 AM

Anyone really expect a politician to actually *keep* the promises they make....?

(remembering specifically Blunkett's "Read my lips, no selection by examination or interview" speech


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: maire-aine
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:46 AM

I watched Kerry's speech last night, and I think he said everything just right. I was very happy with it. As to whether there were too many references to Vietnam, maybe. Or maybe we're just recognizing the debt that we owe these men and women that we've never acknowledged before. I think the dedication of the WW2 memorial and the 60th anniv. of D-Day has given us a chance to reflect on military service, and honoring Vietnam vets is just the next step. Although we may have opposed the war itself, the soldiers didn't have any control over that part.

Maryanne


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:58 AM

One thing, very near the end, and I'm probably paraphrasing: "Never again will we declare an unjust war." Anybody who thought he was talking about Viet Nam was wrong.

I thought they hammered the military service issue, but I could understand why. People look at Bush as if he's a strong Commander in Chief, and he isn't. He may not blink when he feels he has to send people off to get killed in order to wipe out an 'ism' and protect our oil, but a good Commander in Chief looks ahead and considers whether the potential victory is worth the cost. A good Commander in Chief has equal measures of authority AND sense of responsibility. A good President does too.

I don't trust Bush and I don't trust the people around him. Kerry isn't the greatest public speaker (although he was pretty good last night), but I DO think he actually believes in what he says he believes in and that the public person isn't very different from the private one. He's done enough things in his life simply because they were the right things to do. I think the man has a conscience and listens to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 12:05 PM

I watched. Two thoughts - one, he raised two pretty amazing children who were credible, poised, and sober though a bit sentimental. That says a lot TO ME about Dad. Second, this is a man who looks presidential. And after four years of cringing every time baby bush opens his mouth, that counts for something TO ME.

No one can get us out of Iraq without additional loss of lives on all sides. No one can get out out of Iraq without a significant loss of face. Some of us knew that before we went in. There is no viable plan possible to accomplish both so I didn't expect Kerry to have one anymore than I expect one from bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 12:12 PM

It's easy to mock, especially for somoene with a fervid imagination like Barry. Ya know what is NOT so easy? Making osmething like that DNC happen. Raising those kids. Putting out the effort to   get that crew out of Vietname intact. About the time Kerry was pulling that sailor back over the bow under fire, Bush was wandering around on a Texas parking lot shaking hands and smirking... Point is, he has acheived some real results in the real world, and shown somne character doing so.

I know he ain't perfect. I'd rather he not be, actually -- it shows me he's human.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 12:52 PM

Whenever I hear a political speech and then listen to the commentaries afterward (composed of dissection, nit-picking, conjecture about what a particular word or phrase really meant, and speculations about whether or not the speaker got his message across to left-handed, blue-eyed Latino ballet dancers in Nebraska), I often wonder if they actually listened to the same speech I did.

I though John Kerry delivered a helluva good speech and it was right on point.

GUEST's comments, judging from his or her comments on other threads, are to be expected. They could have even been written before he or she heard Kerry's speech.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:08 PM

bottom line-- military issues WILL be on the front burner for the forseeable future, so Kerry had to offer evidence that he is willing to deal with them intelligently rather than diving in on a whim and hoping, like Bush.

We need exactly what Kerry proposed...a bit larger regular force who knows what they are getting into, and some emphasis on 'special forces' with special skills....and leave the National Guard alone! except for real emergencies.

The Republicans ARE going to (and have already) suggest that Kerry's service in 'Nam was too 'short' and tainted by 'minor' wounds, so why NOT show the folks who served with Kerry and respected everything he did? (If Kerry had been shot BAD, they'd just say he was too dumb to duck!)

Kerry DID volunteer, he DID serve...and he didn't like a lot of what he saw once he was there, like a lot of others. A man of courage and committment would protest and complain about that....that doesn't make him a flip-flopper OR a traitor...he protested bad behavior of a few and bad leadership at the top, not brave soldiers or his country in general. (Who has listened to the tapes of LBJ trying to figure out how to get out of that mess and practically admitting he'd dug a hole with no escape! Bush has done that too, but he is not smart enough to see what dumb mistakes he has made)

Is Kerry perfect? Nope...but I see basic 'honesty' and dedication in him...not equivocation or confusion. A man who is honest and aware MUST change some of his views over time, as circumstances change. Those who would rather have a G W Bush, making one decision and holding to it as we all sink deeper into the Big Muddy Sandy, are welcome to him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM

"GUEST's comments, judging from his or her comments on other threads, are to be expected. They could have even been written before he or she heard Kerry's speech."

Right Don, and so could yours and all the other totally predictable comments coming from the people here who intended to vote for Kerry before the speech was made--they all heard what they wanted to hear too.

How many millions of dollars have now gone done the toilet trying to change peoples' minds, without any minds being changed? The poll numbers remain virtually unchanged. Television advertising to date on the presidential election to date (from all sources, not just the candidates) is about a half billion dollars. And nothing changed the day after the speech. Nor will it after Bush's acceptance speech in September.

Which rather suggests, the entire exercise is a sham, and there just might be something truly fucked up with this system, doesn't it?

Kills me the lengths you all go to in order to justify your sanctimonious participation in what is a huge sham.

Me, I figure that money could be much better spent in a zillion places, but hey--I know nothing works better than the illusion of voting being a democratic process in a global capitalist state.

So touche to you too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:30 PM

Kerry is just the man to show the world that we Americans DO have a conscience. Teresa is no idle tupperware princess (taking notes, Laura?), and her convictions run clear and deep. Edwards is a fine speaker and has been an excellent advocate for populist concerns in his self-made carrer.

It's time to turn a deaf ear to the nay-faring bushmen and their eloquent denial of goodness and the 'True American Spirit'. Just let 'em go off in a vacuum... just like porn pervs... There's not much we can do for their Karma until they atone... but they will always be welcome to learn humility.

The American people have nominated the best possible man to beat Bush and turn this country around. Don't expect any 'miracles'... the situation is too grave for such nonsense... But firm determination for a humble reassessment, and a humane approach to "American Power" will do us right...

The arrogance of the 'specter' that animates the Bush sector
Now's a clear lack of clothing, and an empire of loathing
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:45 PM

Kerry will continue bombing the hell out of the Iraqis, just like George Bush. He has the moral conscience of every other global capitalist politician, which is to say, none. It's their way, or they bomb us back to the stone age, with weapons both military and economic.

But hey, I'm really happy the empire is working well for so many of you here in Mudcatville. Iraqi people be damned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:51 PM

BTW, I'm still waiting for Amos, or any of you Kerry voters, to explain the Iraq exit strategy of the Kerry/Edwards team to me.

Specifics, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:55 PM

See my post above Guest. And if you have one, we would all love to hear it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:09 PM

"There is no viable plan possible to accomplish both so I didn't expect Kerry to have one anymore than I expect one from bush."

Good. Glad to see we agree on the point that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats has an exit strategy.

So if as a voter, my number one election issue is to end the US occupation of Iraq (which it is), and neither Bush nor Kerry has an exit strategy, why should I vote for either of them? Because you guys hate one of the guys, but are only marginally displeased with the other?

No one knows if more Iraqis and occupation forces will be killed if we continue the occupation, than if we end it as soon as possible. It doesn't take any more planning to load the troops on the same ships they went over on, and have the captain sail in the opposite direction, than it did to get them over there to begin with, obviously. Everyone could be home by Christmas.

Yes, more Iraqis would die, but it is much more likely, IMO that many, many more Iraqis will die if this occupation continues indefinitely, under the ruse of "bringing stability and order to Iraq" than if we simply bring the troops home now. Ending the occupation WOULD concentrate the minds of the Iraqis and the international community to work on the problem, without having it take up all the resources and energy and time of the international community, when it needs to focus on much more serious hotspots, like Sudan, the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel, North Korea, etc.

Sometimes, you just need to admit that we fucked up, and get the hell out, just like we eventually did in Vietnam. That IS what is called for in this instance. Anything else just makes it an imperial occupation for oil. Oh wait--I forgot! That IS why Kerry is planning on staying in Iraq! That's what we went in for!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:09 PM

GUEST, calm down! You're raving!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:10 PM

Of course he's a politician. What's wrong with that? FDR was. Reagan was. What do you expect from someone running for office?

All of those who are so   critical of politics, what would they put in place of that?, Preachy moralizing and stubborn ideology? Politics is the art of getting elected for office. If anyone has a better way of doing this, I'd like to know about it.

Kerry is a politician but he's n honest one. He crafted a fine speech and he knows that he has to play the military hero card to get elected. Mainly because Bush has cornered him on that. But it makes Bush look foolish to suggest that he is a strong commander-in chief without any military experience himself.

I don't like the military rhetoric but every president has used it to claim victory particularly in a wartime situation.

Are we really at war or is this a manifestation of hysteria and paranoia? Does Al Quaeda really want to destroy the US or do they just want to make a point about American troops on Islamic soil?
Just who is Al Quaeda anyhow? A loose bunch of vicious thugs which are not connected in any military way? How much does bin Laden control it? Is it as much as Arafat controls the Palestinians?

There are a lot of unanswered questions that are given simplistic answers by so-called military pundits. We need someone with sophistication and intelligence to sort this all out.

Anyhow, Kerry has proved that he is sophisticated in foreign policy and is willing to be flexible.

Bush OTOH is a genuine flip-flopper. All his criticism of Kerry is the pot calling the kettle black. I could enumerate furthur, but I think it's stating the obvious just how he has flip-flopped on almost every policy that he advocated since he was not elected.

For an enterating book, Justin Frank's "Bush On the Couch" will give some perspective.

I'm glad that Kerry is a good politican as was Clinton who will emerge in history as a great talented president regardless of his
sickness in social matters. He shot himself in the foot with Monica giving that pornographer Ken Starr amunition to bring down a great presidency. But being president is not being a rock star. It's not being a "personality" or a paragon of morality.These so-called Christians would do well to understand that. Some may not like the analogy but being the leader not unlike a CEO is in a sucessful business.   It's a better way to go than dictatorship. Castro may have performed some good things for his country but he's still a dictator.

If anybody has a better way of electing a president I'd like to know about it. Even many socialist governments have elections.



Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:18 PM

No comment on the speech, but it should be noted that the proper form of address is "Senator Kerry"- the highest office which he has held so far. ( I don't think he has been elected govenor anywhere)




This is a non-political statement brought to you in the interest of accuracy. No approval or disapproval of the candidate or his positions is intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:27 PM

GUEST, if I were Amos I wouldn't explain shit to you until you explain the actions of your guy as you have been challenged to do. In another thread you accused me of hijacking your thread, but that is what is happening here by you. You are a sick, bitter person with nothing of worth to offer. Most of the people that read your posts, even though many of them that I know have not dissimilar views, find your existence here to be offensive. That is because you offer nothing.

I am not troubled by the military references although I thought it got laid on a bit heavy. For far too long the progressive community has allowed these neo con bastards to co-opt the issues of patriotism and love of country. We have allowed them to co-opt the "traditional values" piece without argument. And it cost us the great middle, hence we end up in a place like Iraq. That is what our shortsighted antagonistic GUEST always misses. Were it not for mistakes on the Gore team, also the Florida debacle, as well as the Naderites, we would not be here. Time to correct that.

I thought Kerry laid out the differences last night very clearly. For the first time in a long time, we have a real campaign. And it will be one of the most interesting in years.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:29 PM

Raving, Don? Nice try demonizing me just because I'm voicing a dissenting opinion on who to vote for in November.

Do you not get how anti-democratic and repressive this "Anybody But Bush" is making us as a nation?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be political systems. I'm saying that continuing business as usual when the political system is collapsing from corruption and graft and taking us all down the toilet with it, isn't THE BEST SOLUTION. Voting Kerry and hoping for the best isn't doing anything to change what people hate about Bush.

Can any of you actually explain, specifically, what it is that you hate about Bush? What does he do and what does he represent that so many of you loathe? You tell me.

Then rationally and logically explain how replacing Bush with someone who is nearly an exact replica of him (same racial group, same culture, born with the same silver spoons, went to the same schools, raised in wealthy dynastic families of the ruling elite), regardless of their handful of philosophical differences, will end what you all loathe in George Bush?

Your belief that Kerry is better than Bush is rooted in your fixed, narrow partisan political beliefs, not in reality. That is all I'm trying to say. Replacing Bush with Kerry will not change anything significantly in the long, or likely even in the short term.

These guys aren't the true rulers of the global capitalist system. There is a whole cartel of them, and the presidential election thing just changes the face they have to show the public. Kerry is just as acceptable to them as Bush is. The global capitalists really don't care who is president of the US, because regardless of who it is, they own and will control him/her. A lot of money is spent on this "democratic elections" sham. That is good business for the global capitalist ruling elite.

Kerry can call out the Saudi royal family just like Michael Moore can, sure. But he can't get rid of them, or their influence in American politics or the politics of any nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,rich
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:32 PM

guest,

Here, I looked this up for ya.
Sanctimonious: hypocritically devout
After a little bit of research into your flimsily-veiled guest voice on Mudcat (see that you have a couple actual identities on Mudcat too), I've discovered that this word describes you to the letter.
Some other words for you inertia, exposed, effete, flatulent.

So why this constant abuse of those who make honest attempts at FRUITFUL discussion? Is it self-hatred maybe?

Lemme guess guest. The tattoos and body piercings are no longer cutting it. You find no one near and dear willing to give you the good hiding for which you so long. You spend quite a lot of time desperately reaching out here and (and various other SAFE places)hoping for a good cyber flogging. A good mistress is out of the question since you can't hire a professional because you are donating all that money from your worthy "art" to the leftist cause.

Obviously, it is yourself you detest. You are pretentious without any geniune worth or substance. Keep hobbling about doing your deranged monkey dance of self-loathing. Or, as Billy Connelly said, see if you can get someone IN REAL LIFE to "see their way clear to beating the shite out of you" and then try to be of some use to someone other than yourself. You have to try. That's the key here. Sitting at the computer spewing bile, hoping for a good kicking, ISN'T WORKING.

rich


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:33 PM

"Voting Kerry and hoping for the best isn't doing anything to change what people hate about Bush."

You are so fu#kin' wrong it's unreal. What people hate about Bush is that he's President of the United States. Voting for Kerry WILL change that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:41 PM

Like I said:   raving.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:44 PM

It is not true! I hated George W. when he was a major league baseball team owner! (But then I hate all major league baseball team owners).

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:47 PM

Why should John Kerry be president of the US, but Bush shouldn't? What is Bush actually doing that makes him so bad? He isn't worse than Nixon, that's for sure. Or Harry Truman, for that matter. Harry Truman is the one who ordered the dropping of the bomb. In my book, that makes Harry Truman the worst political leader of all time. Killing 70,000 people in an instant, and unleashing the nuclear nightmare on the planet. Now that is one bad mother fucker f a political leader.

So--what specifically is Bush doing that is worse than his daddy or Ronnie Rayguns or Tricky Dick or Harry Truman?

Answer: nothing. The Democrats are just really fucking pissed, still, that they won the popular vote and lost the White House. That's it, really. This so-called unity isn't unity at all. It is all about vengeance. The Democratic party vendetta.

But guess what Kerry voters? Some of us in the country weren't the least bit surprised by what happened in 2000, because we know that had the tables been turned, that Gore and the Democrats would have done exactly what Bush and the Republicans did--which is to go to any lengths, legal or illegal, consitutional or unconstitutional, moral or repugnant, to win.

We've also moved on, and are interested in what's best for the country and the world, not for the hate filled Republicans and Democrats caught up in this vengeful death match.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:54 PM

Bush has lied to the American people. Put whatever spin on that you wish, but he has lied. And his lies have cost lives. Fer the love of Pete, he wasn't even ELECTED! I think that's enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:02 PM

Kerry has lied to the American people too. Truth telling isn't something you expect from presidents. Kerry's lies will cost lives too. They already are. He is lying when he says he believed what the intelligence was saying about Iraq in the run up to the war. He is lying about the Patriot Act.

COME ON PEOPLE. Just because you all have decided to buy a used car from Richard Nixon doesn't mean those of us who haven't are the crazy, raving lunatics here.

The new would-be emperor is wearing the same outfit as the emperor you are trying to rid yourselves of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:11 PM

A long time ago most agreed it was best not to feed the trolls. THIS one has over-fed like a bloated tick on a fat dog. How about we put her back on a starvation diet and NOT respond, ya'll?


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:16 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:28 PM

Seconded, Kat. Wait, hasn't this been tried before?


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:29 PM

I agree, Thomas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:30 PM

Oh Goody! I'm getting sent to the Mudcat Free Speech Zone again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:35 PM

'Bye.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:41 PM

At today's Common Dreams website, there is a reprint of an article by Naomi Klein from the Guardian, that expresses my reservations about this whole sorry "Anybody But Bush" episode...

"It was "Bush in a Box" that finally got me, a gag gift my brother gave my father on his 66th birthday. Bush in a Box is a cardboard cut-out of President 43 with a set of adhesive speech balloons featuring the usual tired Bushisms: "Is our children learning?" "They misunderestimated me" - standard-issue Bush-bashing schlock, on sale at Wal-Mart, made in Malaysia.

Yet Bush in a Box filled me with despair. It's not that the president is dumb, which I already knew, it's that he makes us dumb. Don't get me wrong: my brother is an exceptionally bright guy; he heads a think-tank that publishes weighty policy papers on the failings of export-oriented resource extraction and the false savings of cuts to welfare. Whenever I have a question involving interest rates or currency boards, he's my first call. But Bush in a Box pretty much summarizes the level of analysis coming from the left these days. You know the line: The White House has been hijacked by a shady gang of zealots who are either insane or stupid or both. Vote Kerry and return the country to sanity.

But the zealots in Bush's White House are neither insane nor stupid nor particularly shady. Rather, they openly serve the interests of the corporations that put them in office with bloody-minded efficiency. Their boldness stems not from the fact that they are a new breed of zealot but that the old breed finds itself in a newly unconstrained political climate.

We know this, yet there is something about George Bush's combination of ignorance, piety and swagger that triggers a condition in progressives I've come to think of as Bush Blindness. When it strikes, it causes us to lose sight of everything we know about politics, economics and history and to focus exclusively on the admittedly odd personalities of the people in the White House. Other side-effects include delighting in psychologists' diagnoses of Bush's warped relationship with his father and brisk sales of Bush "dum gum" - $1.25.

This madness has to stop, and the fastest way of doing that is to elect John Kerry, not because he will be different but because in most key areas - Iraq, the "war on drugs", Israel/Palestine, free trade, corporate taxes - he will be just as bad. The main difference will be that as Kerry pursues these brutal policies, he will come off as intelligent, sane and blissfully dull. That's why I've joined the Anybody But Bush camp: only with a bore such as Kerry at the helm will we finally be able to put an end to the presidential pathologizing and focus on the issues again.

Of course, most progressives are already solidly in the Anybody But Bush camp, convinced that now is not the time to point out the similarities between the two corporate-controlled parties. I disagree. We need to face up to those disappointing similarities, and then we need to ask ourselves whether we have a better chance of fighting a corporate agenda pushed by Kerry or by Bush."

I haven't caved and decided to switch my vote to Kerry. I just can't be that bloody cynical and jaded. But I have decided to switch my vote. From Nader to Cobb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:00 PM

I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:15 PM

Cobb? Who Dat?

Not someone likely to win, I assume.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:23 PM

Can we get back to the speech.   I didn't watch it, but the "reporting for duty" line was all over talk radio this morning as callers were making fun of it on various radio stations.   Each caller would start the conversation "John Doe" reporting for duty. Many speculated that the still picture of him saluting will end up being like the Dukakis tank ad.

I also like the CPR for the hampster story.   At first I thought it was an Imus or SNL parody.   But than I heard the actual tape.   As Tom Paxton said "sometimes you don't have to parody a person. you just quote them"   Rush Limbauch has aleady come up with a new John Kerry Theme for his updates. He is using the mighty mouse theme to parody the Kerry comment.   Following the hamster audio, it was very funny.

The Oliphant column on the Drudge report calls the speech a "missed opportunity"   Talks about a poor performance by Kerry where the big applause lines were the Civil rights lines which are not part of the issues Kerry is campaigning on.

Now about viet nam- Kerry stated in the New York Times two years ago that he would never use viet nam or movies of viet nam in his campaign.    And Alec Baldwin said he would move out of the country if Bush were elected.   If only you liberals would keep your word. (is that a lie or a flip flop- it is so hard to tell with Kerry. With Clinton it was easy- it was a lie. With Kerry you never know.   He is on both sides of every issue)

Most analyists say Kerry was the worst prime time speaker at the convention.    Who was worse than Kerry- Sharpton, Baraka, Kennedy, Theresa, Kucinich, or Edwards?   BTW-Kucinich on O'relly was histerical- I digagree with every one of his postions but am still supporting him.    Bush lied about WMD's, but Kerry didn't lie because the CIA worked for Bush when the misinformed him.    You just can't make this stuff up. Even SNL is not that creative.

Unfit for Duty- the book by the soldiers who service with Kerry and blast him as a phone and a fraud comes out Sept 25 and is # 2 on Amazon- enjoy.   Can't wait for the Zel MIller speech at the republican convention on how the democrats have abandoned America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:25 PM

OK, and while we're at it, let's talk about John Kerry's record since the 2000 election, and throw in a bit of the record under Clinton for good measure, shall we?

Let's see, he voted FOR the Bush tax cuts.

He voted FOR Bush's No Child Left Behind Act.

He voted FOR Bush's Patriot Act.

He voted FOR Bush's war on Iraq resolution.

Kerry, like Bush, has been unequivocal in his support for the Sharon government.

Kerry is one of the US government's biggest champions of GATT and NAFTA, espousing a policy of "Progressive Internationalism" in order to globalize with US pre-eminence.

Voted YES on permanent normal trade relations with China, despite their abysmal human rights record, and pleas from the international human rights community. Apparently his brand of internationalism only applies to free trade that benefits US.

Voted to ban "soft money" contributions and restrict issue ads. He is now setting new soft money records having 527 organizations run his attack "issue" ads.

Favors passing legislation for catastrophic health coverage for all costs over $50,000. Apparently 49,999 isn't catastrophic to rich, wealthy white guys.

Voted yes on medical savings acounts. We'll all need them to pay the catastrophic health care costs up to $49,999.

Favors raising the federal minimum wage to $6.65 by next year. Now there's a living wage for you. What a bloody generous guy. Wonder what his stand is on capping CEO's salaries and perks?

His party credentials:

--Supports Hyde Park Declaration of "Third Way" centrism
--Member of Democratic Leadership Council
--New Democrat: "Third Way" instead of left-right debate
--Member of the Senate New Democrat Coalition

If you liked Clinton, you're gonna LOVE Kerry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:34 PM

Here ya go, PoppaGator...

Cobb/LaMarche Green Party 2004


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:44 PM

Larry K,

Thanks for the report on Rush Limbagh's reaction. Thanks for pointing out that those who have always been against Kerry and who didn't watch the speech are still against Kerry and the speech.

Most of the analysts I saw, including neocon and Bush supporter William Krystol said that Kerry gave a very good speech. Which analysts did you survey?

Zel Miller is a nut job. I hope he's up for re-election this year and an actual Democrat of at least a sane Republican is running against him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:47 PM

I say mention of "thread hijacking" earlier in this thread. FYI, I've never seen good come form arguing with unidentified GUESTs I don't read thier posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:51 PM

I think LarryK and Guest are sorry-ass cross-eyed merchants of bile who wouldn't know a straight-forward position if it came forward and bit them.

That's my ad hominem argument for the day! :>)


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM

I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:03 PM

Hey, Amos, them ad hominums go good with black-eyed peas, collard greens and hog jowls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:09 PM

I have been reading Guests' posts carefully and he is not supporting Bush against Kerry, as some of you have tried to insinuate, but trying to point out the lack of "Democracy" in the political process.
The attitude of you old timers in abusing someone who is only putting across his opinion in moderate language, is frankly disgusting.
Where is all the tolerance and free speech that Mudcat is supposed to be famous for?

I am a member here, and i feel it is my right to state my agreement with Guest.

As a Scot, Two things bother me about the Kerry platform.
I dont understand how it can be looked on as beneficial to place such emphasis on Kerrys' volunteering for a war which is now discredited throughout the world.

And how can intelligent people vote for a party which fell in behind Bushs' criminal war in Iraq.
They had the chance to oppose ,and gain the respect of the world,instead they showed themselves to be as self serving as the Republicans,and twice as cowardly.

Try thinking with bothsides of your brain before condemning...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:12 PM

I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:24 PM

Network ratings for Edwards' speech on Wednesday night were down 11% from Monday night (the night Clinton spoke).

Overall network ratings are down 20% from the 2000 DNC. Ratings for Kerry's speech aren't in yet, but these numbers aren't exactly screaming "For the first time in a long time, we have a real campaign. And it will be one of the most interesting in years."

It looks to me like not many Americans WANT to know about John Kerry.

And isn't it good to see that Kerry/Edwards can't even fire up their own party base enough to get them to watch their coronation. Hell, the primaries had better numbers than this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:26 PM

Brucie my friend ....Glad to see you back.

From this side of the Atlantic,there dosn't seem to be many "positives" attached to US politics,as Guest says it just seems like one gigantic con...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM

It is one gigantic con, but I wouldn't say the majority of Americans realizes that.

More of them watched Paris Hilton on Fox, and the new reality series "Amish in the City" than the convention.

Those numbers do explain, however, how the majority of Americans came to believe that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:04 PM

I see I'm WAY behind...but..

" I'm still waiting for Amos, or any of you Kerry voters, to explain the Iraq exit strategy of the Kerry/Edwards team to me."

*tsk*..NO one but Dennis Kuscinitch had an exit policy, and his was just to pack up & leave it to 'em. Kerry had said that he intends to make it easier for other countries to GIVE us some help while we try to balance the problems of staying in with the problems of leaving suddenly. What more can he do? Bush has committed our nation to be involved in Iraq sooner and to a greater degree than was sensible...he has made a royal mess, and getting out is gonna be HARD...and "we Kerry voters" don't trust Bush to GET us out in any reasonable way.

I must also comment on a couple other things:

1) in politics a "yes" vote is certainly not always a vote 'for' something. It can be an attempt to show a united front, it can represent giving someone the benefit of the doubt..as in "ok, try it your way, but watch out"... a number of Democrats said "ok, you say you have evidence about Saddam...I'll vote 'yes' on a contingency basis"
2) Why do we hate Bush so much? What has he done to us?.....Mercy! Where shall I start?...He has inserted his personal religious & moral beliefs directly into the political process. He has sacrificed environmental concerns for the benefit of big business interests. He has alienated most of the world, including many allies, with his military policies, and hints that he will use similar tactics on others if they don't behave to suit him...but NOT the REALLY dangerous ones like N. Korea. He has RUINED the balanced budget the previous administration brought us and given us debt beyond belief...and is chipping away at Social Security with vague plans of 'privitization'. He is, at every opportunity, appointing judges who make mockeries of the basics of our judicial process, and is waiting to pounce on the Supreme Court. He acts as though he had a sweeping mandate, after LOSING the popular vote and only avoiding having Florida re-counted carefully by the skin of his teeth, his brother's clout, and one of those mockeries of the judicial process I mentioned.

that enough? I have more, but you probably aren't listening anyway.....oh...yeah...He absolutely refuses to learn to say "nuclear"   *grin*...(Well, maybe I am too harsh on him there--perhaps he really can't hear the difference.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:23 PM

We are listening Don, but you still havn't made a case that Kerry will be any better as leader than Bush was.
Its Business interests who make the agenda,the politicians carry out their wishes.

Politicians always "talk a good game" before election....Look what happened in Britain with Blair and New Labour.   After election they took a position somewhat right of the Conservatives.
It all comes back to the point that democracy is dead in America and Britain,and our rulers now KNOW that they can do whatever they please without the consent of the people....as long as the game of "musical chairs" continues...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:27 PM

And by the way Don...How the hell do you vote yes for war ,on a contingency basis.....is that a daring stab at irony ..or what


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:30 PM

Sorry Bill ...I forgot who I was talking to..Now ,where the hell have I left my specs??...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:39 PM

A few thoughts-=--forgive me if I repeat some above posts---and I do agree with Sinsull---those 2 daughters were amazing. Now, they are not running for office, but given the family values one speaks of they sure are a cut above the Bush "cupcakes" and their sticking out of tongue at reporters because "..isn't that cute". Moronic is a better word. Great upbringing---they should hide those 2 for Ws own good.

The speech, was to me, far more eloquent than I had expected---it seemed Presidential (as was his entrance---properly stage managed, I am sure--but we live in the TV era) The phrasing, the wording, and the timing were truly wonderful. Frankly, I thought it a better speech than Edwards. Edwards is a great communicator but still comes across--to me---as a lawyer presenting his case for damages to the jury. That said---he is awfully good at that.

As to the commentators in their post-mortems. I am still surprised (admittedly I only watched it on PBS---not many choices prior so stay loyal--I say) by the partisanship of these pundits. I know the NY Times writer is of conservative bent but it would be nice if he could bend a bit and agree about the speech and its effect instead of the nit picking of minor things.

One fault though---I did think that Kerry stepped on his laugh and applause lines too much. I don't know if it was a time limitation, his lack of showmanship, or something else.   A speaker and a performer should never do that---let the audience really respond.


I doubt that we will ever go back to conventions as we knew them---when things were decided on the floor, when oratory was in full flower, and when they were not infomercials and party time for the delegates.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:42 PM

"Don?" Ake, who are you addressing? I can't relate what you're saying to any posts I've made on this thread. Maybe you have either the wrong thread or the wrong person.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:46 PM

Sorry Don ....Now Iv upset everybody ...I must change my name to Martin...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:56 PM

well, ake, I explained what I meant ...but once more.. Bush said he HAD good evidence Saddam had WMDs and plans to use them...Kerry's vote said, in essence, "ok...if that is true, then I'll give you the $87 billion in the name of peace, stability and a united front".....then later, when that 'evidence' began to look mighty suspicious, vote #2 said "hold on...this is getting awkward, and I now withdraw what little confidence I had in this war." That means, "I'll give you $$$ to see what you can prove *contingent* on some results."

Results? Iraq with a devastated infrastructure, a bunch of Muslims that hate our guts enough to kill each other while killing us, NO WMDs, no oil for the forseeable future...and no reasonable way to stay IN and reasonable way to get OUT. If I were running for president, I'd sure like to have both of Kerry's votes on record..."I tried to support the administration when it claimed to know what it was doing, but I sure didn't continue to support it when the shit hit the fan!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:04 PM

Good words from a decent man.

NOT WISHY-WASHY at all. Kerry is simply a pragmatist who has the intelligence to change his mind when the facts indicate that that is the correct thing to do. I admire the trait that some call vascillating.

Yes, he went to Viet Nam, and while there did the best he could in an insane situation. When he saw the wrong-headedness of that war, he had the strength to be wishy-washy --- and change his mind. That is hard as hell to do in a platoon marching toward the battle lines, but afterwards the statement that was made by the vets against that war showed me that this man, John Kerry, is one of those that could possibly try to do some of what we might want our president to do. Still, it's admirable that his support of those now in harms way in Iraq and Afghanistgan is realistic and not simpliatic.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:15 PM

That is what I liked----solutions are not always simple (paraphrase). W. loves speaking in headlines --his attention span probably---and Cheney wields the right side of the mouth speaking ax.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:34 PM

Well Bill, I read your explanation,but it still sounds like political cowardice to me,and the "contingency" being political expediancy.

You always seemed to me an intelligent man, surely you cant believe that the sickness of American politics can be cured by changing leaders and doing nothing about the "machinery"...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:59 PM

Nothing cowardly about it to say "That step turned out to have been wrong, based on what we learned when we took it. So I am changing my mind.". How obsessively right does a leader have to be about being wrong? Why not just change your position and move on?

There is a very large difference between abandoning principles and changing your policy because of new information, still cleaving to 6the same principles. The latter describves Kerry. The former, Bush.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:18 PM

Akenaton---I assume you are replying to Bill D and not myself---Bill H. Correct?


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:20 PM

I would say a good way to judge the effectiveness and appeal of this man is by the intensity of the response from his adversaries. GUEST gives us one side, and the conservative Repub's give us another. There is reason for hope.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM

I figure the more the Bushies speak against Kerrys war record the more scared they are. The more they talk about Kerry the more the public will see that they have no successes to run on.

For all practical purposes, Gore won the election last time, For a lot of voters Bush has been on probation for four years and he hasn't earned the right to stay. To win the election Kerry has to do two things, convince the public that he won't make the same mistakes Bush did. Show us that he will fight al Qaeda and get through three next there months without a major gaffe. Considering those goals, his speech was PERFECT!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:49 PM

Well, I missed the Convention and all the woof-woof speeches because my wife informed me that we we're gonna spend the week in a cabin in the mountains of Wes Ginny. Ahhhh, I said, "P-Vine, that's where we live!" but then she brought up the "D" word (as in deevorce) so I paked the Toyotar and it was off to a cabin a couple hunner miles down into the middle o' Wes Ginny wid no TV 'er radio...

... but I read the speech on the way home after finding a Washington Post and I was thinkin' if I was getting paid * a lot* by Kerry to help him with a strategy fir beating Bush, this speech is about what I woulda come up with...

"Shoot, you think Georgie Porgie can kill? You ain't seen nuthin' yet. I've done it and (spit) I'll do it again!"

I'm sure the neocons is burnin' the midnight oil tonight 'cause if I was them I sho nuff would! I mean, lets face it. Bush is a coward and wiesel. Kerry is just a wiesel but one with a few notches carved on his gun handle.... Hmmmmmm? This ain't exactly Wes Ginny Slide Rule stuff here...

Like I said, poor ol' Karl Rove is gonna be gettin' a lot less sleep in the coming weeks...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Pondering lt All
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:27 PM

Don't you see...admitting you were wrong and then doing the right thing is not viewed as strong. God forbid Bush admit he might have been wrong. Yet it's there for all to see. 9/11 had nothing to do with Bush going after Iraq. He'd have done it anyway. What exactly is his exit policy? He was all about Shock and Awe. How fucking arrogant. Spent a lot of money and made a lot of people rich. Even his father did it better. The 78 billion he tried to bribe Turkey with to launch his war on Iraq would have gone a long way to make sure no child was left behind. Funny how there's 78 billion to bribe Turkey with, but not enough to really help education or the problems of heatlh care. If America really wants the rest of the world to emulate us, hadn't we better show them how to do it by fixing our own faults? It seems that education, health care and jobs are just buzz-words used by politicians. America will never really have the respect of the rest of the world until we really show them why our system and way of life is better. As for the Arab/Muslim problem, why has no one suggested sitting down and talking with these people and find out what exactly is pissing them off. Is it really that they just hate us? They just hate freedom? I don't think so. I think they hate our policies. And the world will never be safe until we accept that we cannot force our way of life on others. We need to show them how it works in reality not just on fancy old parchment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:30 PM

c'mon, ake! "political expediency" or "political cowardice" are guesses as to what he was thinking... I can't read his mind, but I might have done something similar, had I been forced to choose. I like to think I would have said, "No way, Georgie...you are a fool to spend that amount of money with no better plan than you have."...but I wasn't there, and I didn't hear the briefings...

...and:

" surely you cant believe that the sickness of American politics can be cured by changing leaders " ....I never came close to saying that!...I make absolutely no claim that one election will automatically 'fix' everything, but I sure see no hope in keeping THIS administration!
..I saw NO candidate who I thought could fix everything. I think Howard Dean had a slightly better 'feel' for the issues and the steps necessary to address them, but he might not have gotten enough support, given his tendency to polarize a crowd.. (where was Tom Daschle, or Mario Cuomo...just too smart to get caught up in this farce?)

As far as 'general governing' and making decisions, there were several Democratic candidates who might have done fine...Kerry might do fine, I dunno...

In this general climate and world situation, it is difficult to imagine any US politican as president who could even imagine all the problems facing us...much less find solutions.

If there were no war, and no one hated us and was trying to disrupt out economy and kill us at random, there would STILL be enormous problems to solve...and NO politican will even talk publicly about some of them!

The USA is a VERY large, diverse country, and two (or 2˝ or 3...whatever) political parties cannot begin to represent the various viewpoints. Some areas (Texas, Southern California, the deep south, the Pacific North-West) are almost different entities when it comes to these issues...but we have a pragmatic problem....right now, EITHER Bush or Kerry is going to get the job...we can at least avoid a known evil and hope while we plan and debate ways to improve the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:30 PM

Bobert,

I like what I think you're saying. ;-)

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:39 PM

Well, Art, then I think I do, too... Well, at least I agree with what I said...

But Iz sure I like what "Ponderin' it all" had to say...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:03 PM

Hello, Ake. I trust you've been keeping well you dyed-in-the-wool anarchist.

I will ask this again, because my post was neither rhetorical nor tongue in cheek:

"I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives."

If at first you don't succeed . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:12 AM

LarryK,

if you insist on only watching FOX News, of course everyone will say Kerry did badly. But in fact most correspondents on most outlets thought he did a superb job.

Check out what the Associated Press reports:

July 30, 2004 | NEW YORK (AP) -- Television commentators gushed in their first response to John Kerry's nomination acceptance speech, while warning the address will be parsed in the weeks ahead for what wasn't said.

"This is the best speech I have ever heard John Kerry ever make," CBS analyst Bob Schieffer said as balloons fluttered down on the Democratic National Convention's closing celebration Thursday night.

Over on ABC, political director Mark Halperin provided an echo: "The best speech I've ever seen John Kerry deliver by a mile."

"There was no Bush bashing in this speech tonight," NBC anchor Tom Brokaw said of Kerry's performance at Boston's FleetCenter, "but lots of lines that brought the crowd to its feet, especially when he talked about the defense secretary and the attorney general."


You can find the rest; just do a google search on the AP's headline:

Television commentators wowed by Kerry

Sorry, Larry K, as usual you're out of touch!

As for GUEST, I wonder how they calculate those "network ratings?" Do they include C-Span, etc?


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:33 AM

He's not watching Fox, Fox liked it too

From Salon.com

The pundits on Kerry: He nailed it


The same mainstream talking heads who trashed Gore give Kerry strong notices, and even right-wingers hold their tongues.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert



July 29, 2004 | If Sen. John Kerry's acceptance speech were the opening night of a Broadway production, it would be doing robust box office business Friday morning. The same talking heads who seemed openly skeptical of the Democratic presidential nominee for much of this week gave his speech strongly positive notices.

On a scale of 1 to 10, ABC's George Stephanopoulos gave Kerry's speech an 8 "as written," and a "7.5 as delivered."


"Face the Nation" host Bob Schieffer said Kerry had "done about as well as he could do to set the stage for what's ahead."





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NBC's Tim Russert credited Kerry for opening himself up during the address. "He gave more of himself than I've ever seen before." He added that Democratic delegates "have seen a candidate who's willing to take the battle to George Bush. Democrats heard what they needed to hear; it's on, full charge ahead."

Time magazine's Joe Klein told CNN Kerry "nailed it" and that he'd "never seen the man speak so well."

Meanwhile, Newsweek's Howard Fineman, appearing on MSNBC, said Kerry "has established the point he's a fighter, a war hero and a real guy. Now it's up to Bush to tear him down."

Some observers might suggest all those pundits have Democratic leanings to begin with, so their praise doesn't mean much. But they were precisely the type of commentators who routinely ridiculed Al Gore's campaign throughout the 2000 race, so the shift is worth noting.

The post-speech analysis got off to a comical start on CNN, when the news channel inadvertently broadcast frantic comments from a Democratic producer in a rage that more balloons were not dropping from the ceiling of the Fleet Center: ""More balloons! We need all of them coming down! All balloons! Balloons? What's happening, balloons? There's not enough coming down. All balloons! Where the hell -- there's nothing falling! What the fuck are you guys doing up there?"

No word yet if any FCC action will be taken against CNN.

Over at MSNBC, Republican pollster Frank Luntz conducted a focus group of 24 voters and found four who voted for Bush in 2000 and, after seeing Kerry, said they would vote for the Democrat in the fall. Luntz suggested Kerry would not see as big a post-convention bounce as Gore did in 2000, and thanks to the convention's relentless focus on military toughness, insisted that "national security is now a positive for this Democratic candidate." (Over on CNN, Washington Post reporter Terry Neal mentioned that a Zogby poll taken right before Kerry's speech indicated Kerry had already picked up a five-point bounce from the week's activities.)

Conservative pundits were notably restrained in critiquing Kerry's address. MSNBC host and former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough critiqued Kerry's style, saying his speech had the "best text" of the week, but not the best presentation. Scarborough suggested Kerry stepped on too many of his applause lines: "If John Kerry had delivered that 'Mission Accomplished' line and stepped away from the microphone the crowd would still be cheering. He blew through the best applause lines in a way Bill Clinton never would have."

The Weekly Standard's Fred Barnes weakly told Fox News viewers that Kerry's "salute wasn't very good." The magazine's editor, Bill Kristol, conceded that Kerry "gave a good speech," adding that it was a "bold and interesting" move to try to "retake patriotism for Democrats."

Some of the right's hesitation to trash Kerry's speech may have stemmed from the fact that immediately following Gore's 2000 convention speech, many conservatives denounced it as a failure. Robert Novak labeled the speech "a flop" and erroneously predicted Gore would come out of the convention facing a six-point deficit in the polls. And the Wall Street Journal's Peggy Noonan wrote, "Al Gore's acceptance speech was a rhetorical failure and, in my view, a strategic blunder of significant proportions."

The conservative pundits ended up with egg on their faces, as the public deemed it a hit and Gore enjoyed a robust and sustained post-convention bounce in the polls.

Kerry's right-wing critics may be holding their tongues, not wanting to pan what could turn out to be another Democratic hit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:58 AM

I liked this one, too:

Edwards speech "moves" Brit Hume

Appreciation for political oratory comes in all forms. During the speeches by Al Sharpton and John Edwards on Wednesday, for instance, the delegates' emotional responses to their words were palpable. As I left the Fleet Center there was a unanimity and upbeat giddiness in the air. Delegates seemed to have been genuinely moved by the speeches and to feel that the party had had a very good night.

As I exited the compound at about 11:15 p.m. I found myself walking next to a trio of familiar faces who had emerged from one of the side doors: Brit Hume, Fred Barnes and Mort Kondracke -- Fox News all-stars all. To my amusement, Kondracke was carrying a Kerry-Edwards sign, and talking about carrying it on the plane back to Washington as a souvenir.

The chance encounter brought me back to four years ago at the Los Angeles Democratic convention, when I had run into Sean Hannity immediately after Al Gore's acceptance speech and he had been cock-a-hoop at what he perceived as a massive mistake by the V.P. "Gore blew it -- he just won over the entire McGovern vote!" So I was aware that the off-camera reactions of conservative commentators can provide a fascinating barometer reading. A misfired Democratic speech is no cause for concern to them. A speech that they think might have connected with Middle America is much more troubling.

So I was fascinated to see that Hume and Barnes in particular looked so glum. Did they perceive that Edwards may have "made the case" to swing voters?

Saying hello and reintroducing myself (I'd met all three men during the 2000 conventions), I fell into step with them as they walked through the light drizzle toward their waiting limos.

"Why the long face, Brit?" I asked. He didn't pause a beat. "I've never experienced a more emotional political night in my life," he said in deadpan style. "Edwards' speech was the most emotional thing I've ever heard in my life. When I heard John Edwards talking about mothers sitting at their kitchen tables I was moved. My heart was moved ... my bowels were moved."

I was somewhat flummoxed by this response, and it was unusual enough that I instantly hit the mental "save" button. I'm not accustomed to hearing about the bowel movements of TV personalities, so the precise wording burned itself into my mind (and five minutes later into my notebook).

"What about you, Fred?" I queried. Hume answered for the moody-looking Barnes. "Al Sharpton's speech got him," said Hume...

-- Martin Lewis


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 09:36 AM

Because Bush is an ass and a dangerous man, doesn't mean that Kerry isn't also. Kerry is the justification for most anti-war progressives I know who insist the MUST vote for him to beat Bush, have sold out their consciences. It really is that simple. And I could certainly name names of the people in this very thread who are now gung ho Kerry, who were some of the most vocal anti-warriors when Bush went into Iraq, no?

Just because you need to grasp at straws to justify voting for a pro-war candidate, which goes against your already publicly stated position of being anti-war, doesn't mean everyone who is anti-war is going to agree that making a pact with the devil you don't know to rid yourself of the devil you do, is going to agree with your strategy.

My partner, who has the one and only rationalization for voting for Kerry (which incidentally doesn't include anything to do with the war), does make sense, but the strategy is extremely high risk. The rationalization is we need to "throw the bums out" at the election, because when the politicians are guilty of such egregious misconduct, in a democracy, the only recourse you have (if you can't get them prosecuted legally) is to vote them out. So my partner's rationalization is, we need to vote them out regardless of who is opposing them. However, my parter does concede that when this is done, it needs to be done overwhelmingly and decisively. We agree that if Kerry just barely squeaks into office in a 51/49 scenario, we are screwed, and the rationalization and strategy will have turned out to be very, very wrong.

I say, that is much too high a risk to take, and that voting for a pro-occupation militarist LBJ/Joe Lieberman sort of Democrat (which Kerry certainly is) is an even greater risk because Kerry has already promised to EXPAND the occupation (ie send in more troops), not end it quickly. This whole thing strikes me as Bush and Kerry speeding down a four lane freeway at 90 miles an hour--Kerry on the left, Bush on the right, shooting at each other with automatic weapons fire, with the world in between them. A lot of the folks in the middle of their home front holy wars are gonna get killed.

Of course all the pundits said "great speech" because for Kerry it was a great speech. It wasn't a great speech by historic political oratory standards, but for Kerry the speech did what it had to do, which was appease the mongol hordes of media pundits.

But the progressives I know who are suffering from Anybody But Bush blindness and will vote for Kerry no matter what, are all pretty fucking despressed this week. They should be. IMO, they should be ashamed of themselves for having let their animosity towards the Republican personalities in the Bush administration get this far out of hand. Hate truly sucks as a positive motivator. You vote based upon your partisan hatred for the "Republican enemy" and you have become the neo-cons you despise.

If you are a strong anti-war progressive, rationalizing voting for a pro-war candidate "because we have to" to defeat another pro-war candidate, is the height of stupidity. My fearless predicition is those "Anybody But Bush" folks are going to wake up with a very bad hangover and a lot of regret come January 21st, regardless of who wins. Why? Because the most irrational, stupid thing the Democrats have done (again) was vote for the candidate that was more like the Republican they were trying to defeat, instead vote for the candidate that best represented their interests. This year, it should have been Howard Dean, and everyone knows it. But the reason we don't have Howard Dean, and are stuck with Bush Lite, is because of the very political cowardice of middle class nice Democrats akenaton refers to.

The circumstances required Democrats to show some guts, some fortitude, some courage under fire, to nominate a candidate that was actually a Democrat, not a wolf in sheeps clothes. But what did all of you do? You caved. You bought the propaganda line from the ruling elite that Howard Dean wasn't electable. Howard Dean was the only candidate running who WAS electable. But that isn't what the mainstream media and the middle class nice people told us was electable. To be electable, one must be nice, not angry. One must not shout, even in circumstances where you have to shout to be heard.

This is the tyranny of Anglo American moderate centrism run amok, and it is killing people. It is wholly indefensible according to my core values. When people cowardly accept murderers as their leaders in order to be polite and not rock the boat, then those people need to be put in their place, which is NOT the Oval Office.

After all, we know "ethnics and working class raving lunatics" are the fiery speakers. "Ethnics and working class raving lunatics" are angry. "Ethnics and working class raving lunatics" aren't electable.

Well, if that is true, then it is true because of the class bigotry, snobbery, racism, and political and social cowardice of the Anglocentric middle class "moderate" voter who keeps voting for the Bushes and the Kerrys of this world. They are the ones who are now up in arms because the ruling elite is taking away their middle class perks that they won at the expense of the working class and the poor under Clinton/Gore and the Democratic Leadership Council.

My response as a working class political independent? Well, to quote Teresa...shove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 10:35 AM

Ah Guest,    I think Iv got your passion,but I dont have your skill with words.
That post was the "coup de grace".
Thanks for raising my belief that it might be a "good world after all"

I hope that those who abused this man or woman,feel suitably ashamed of themselves,especially those in the higher reaches of Mudcat,who react against what they see as "dangerous" truth.

" Dont rock the boat too hard now, our opinions might get wet"..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 10:44 AM

Yer welcome ake, and thanks to you too.

But here is the thing. I've have NEVER regretted voting FOR the candidate I felt most passionate about, regardless of whether they win or lose. And I can tell you, until Paul Wellstone was elected in 1992, I had never voted for a winner of a national political office, and I first voted in 1972.

Voting Green exhilirates me. Makes me happy. Makes me dance.

Compare that picture to the one being painted by the pro-Kerry anti-war pragmatists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 10:59 AM

Hate may not be much of a positive motivator, but it sure is a great negative motivator. Voting the stupid bastard out is the only intelligent thing that mass democratic voting does.
yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:08 AM

And when that doesn't work Peter, you can give us Greens a call.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:11 AM

You've done pretty well by this system. It allows you to throw out your stuff, and never have to really do anything. But, hey, it gets you attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:15 AM

Oh and Peter, I think you made a stupid mistake in your post there. I'm sure you are aware, since you are such an intelligent person, that the US electoral process isn't a democratic voting process. It is a capitalist voting process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:22 AM

The United States is a great country Mick, I know that. I've travelled a lot outside the US, and I know how good we have it, and how bad others have it.

But those who have it bad--and I mean really bad--are counting on us to hold the global capitalists in check, so they can get some breathing space on this planet, and hopefully survive and be able to give their kids a much better future than the one the global middle class stole from them.

I could give a shit about you and your cozy ass Big Mick. I'm voting Green to keep AFL CIO monsters like yourself from fucking up the world any worse than you already have.

I'm done being nice to you Democratic liberals bastards drunk on power, greed, and rage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

Peter T...Greens....oh, the irony.

It comes down to how badly you want change, and whether ego is more important. People who are way outside the center, in a small minority, are never going to get everything they want. If they're willing to compromise, there's a chance they'll make an improvement, even if it's a small one. If they hold out for everything they want...it ain't gonna happen. Not all at once. But folks who don't care much about making things better if it means being flexible are more concerned with feeling morally superior than making things better.

I voted for Dean, but he didn't make it. I'll vote for Kerry, because he's better than Bush, and yes, he DOES actually have a chance of being elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 11:38 AM

We aren't stupid Jeri. We know we aren't ever going to get everything we want. We are intelligent enough to have a strategy that counters the propaganda, that gets people working in the right direction in small ways that cumulatively have big effects. We realize that the most important work we do has absolutely nothing to do with the capitalist political system.

We do work outside the system. We have no delusions about being the winner take all in the capitalist system. Our strategy is to create a parallel world that will one day reach a critical mass--not of voters, but of human beings doing what is best for themselves AND their neighbors AND their enemies AND the planet.

This is so far beyond those of you who can only think within the narrow confinces of the conventional middle class two party capitalist paradigm, not to mention as far as the next election, that we know you don't get it. But that's OK. With people like me haranguing you, and refusing to cut you any slack, as well as the example of alternative life styles that so many of us are living, you'll get the email eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 12:01 PM

You know, if you weren't such an asshole, you could actually score some points. But you have this vision of yourself as the saviour of all us ignorant people. That is why you will never be anything more than an angry voice at the fringe. Your view of yourself and your importance is far greater in your own mind than in anyone elses.

I am willing to concede some things in the debate. I will concede that if there is a divide that separates the Republicans from the Democrats, it is small enough that the main players can shake hands across the fence. But what you just don't get is that is how the majority of folks like it. So in order to effect social change in our society, it must be done in small steps and over the long term. That is, unless you are advocating violent overthrow and takeover of the system. But unless you are willing to subjugate the average folks in this country, your way will not work.

One thing I want to make clear. I admire the principal of your stand. And you have intelligence and the ability to express it. But you are a jerk, with a martyr's complex. I have seen your type before. They are usually dangerous to those around them because they can't see or don't care, about the practical effect of their politic. You are willing to destroy people to save them. Historically, recent and ancient, has shown that folks that share your view cause more misery than improvement in society.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 12:47 PM

Your view of yourself and your importance is far greater in your own mind than in anyone elses.


I think this is true of most people, at least up to a point.

I concur with your admiration, Mick. And witht he caveats.

The voting system is not "capitalist", but republican (lower case R) or representative. Capitalism is an economic methodology.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:00 PM

There is only one way to get the larger changes, election reform, lobbyist reform... that is to join one of the parties and work from within. Remember that most of Kerry's platform has been taken from planks built by Dean from the left and Clarke from the right. Plus a heaping helping of Edward's positive approach. The Green party doesn't have a chance to develop a broad base because the other parites will simply adopt their good ideas. Kerry's platform represents a blending od the positions of a very broad group of people. Not enough dovishness for Kucinich not enough fight for Zel Miller. But, by far the party is together, partly because they want to win the election, partly because they want America to have a chance at the unity it had after 9/11.

Democrats can say all they want about Bush's policies. It just makes him dig in harder, but when the people on his own side of the aisle speak up, he listens.

If you want the Republicans to tone down their extreemism, join the Republicans and preach moderation. Same deal for the Democrats. Thats the only way to change things. Third parties have the same effect as special interest groups, they cannot weild political power.

Nader was more effective when he was writing books and leading lawsuits. The Greens are more effective when they educate than when they campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:11 PM

The voting system is democratic by definition. The political system is less so. It would be better if the popular sources of information weren't all controlled by commerce.

CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC are all ratings driven, they cover the process as if it were a horse race rather than a way to set our goals and priorities for the next four years.

Fox, claiming the "conservative", "America love it or leave it" audience for itsself panders to that point of view.

PBS is careful not to offend its donors, people of means and big corporation.

Look at all of the commercials from lobbyists like ADM on the Sunday morning political shows. Why is there subsidized corn in nearly every processed food you can buy in this country?

Politics in this country is using large amounts of money to obatin obscenely large amounts of money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:38 PM

Mick ...I admire your nerve....In trying to patronise someone of much greater depth both in politics and humanity.
It occured to me while re-reading this thread, What side do you think our great folk song heros like Pete Seeger, Woody,Leadbelly ect would come down on?
I think they would support the man with vision, not those who continue with a status quo that turns human beings into automatons,
Cannon fodder ,on the treadmill from cradle to grave.
Can you say honestly that this society has improved since your youth?
Some of us may be better off financially,but at what a price to our basic humanity. We are simply numbers, conditioned not to see, not to think, and not to love others or the wonderful planet we live on.
If people dont start to examine themselves and the system that enslaves them it will be too late....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 02:30 PM

Ake, I admire your nerve .. in trying to bait someone who has far greater depth than you using any number or criteria. Won't work. And I would guess that if you asked Pete, he would tell you to vote for Kerry. I already know Frank Hamilton would.

Yes, I believe positive changes were made, and we were well on the way to a better society. But we overstepped, and the average person left us. When that happened, we got our butts kicked around and couldn't buy an election. We allowed the adversaries to define us. We lost the House, we lost the Senate, and when we won the Presidency and the House we then lost it midterm. In doing so, we lost much in the way of progressive legislation.

By the way, don't mistake the fact that I choose not to debate the finer points with GUEST as being out of my league. I might be, but I don't think so. I don't debate it, because I reject the whole premise she builds her arguments on. I feel she is wrong, period.

Ake, you really need to tighten up your trolling technique. It is transparent as hell.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 02:50 PM

Mick, you are beginning to appear pathologically obsessed with your struggle to denigrate our eloquent Guest. Take a few deep breaths and give it a rest.

FWIW, my analysis concurs, and I agree, with everything she says EXCEPT that I'm convinced that this time, just this once, we can't afford not to vote for the one candidate, warts and all, who can defeat Bush.

See my thread "The Speech that defined Kerry" for an interesting transcript of an address he gave to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 03:10 PM

I also voted for Dean, GUEST. I organized and volunteered and donated to to his campaign, too. But he didn't make it. Such is life.

I'm intrigued by your partner's argument:

My partner, who has the one and only rationalization for voting for Kerry (which incidentally doesn't include anything to do with the war), does make sense, but the strategy is extremely high risk. The rationalization is we need to "throw the bums out" at the election, because when the politicians are guilty of such egregious misconduct, in a democracy, the only recourse you have (if you can't get them prosecuted legally) is to vote them out. So my partner's rationalization is, we need to vote them out regardless of who is opposing them. However, my parter does concede that when this is done, it needs to be done overwhelmingly and decisively. We agree that if Kerry just barely squeaks into office in a 51/49 scenario, we are screwed, and the rationalization and strategy will have turned out to be very, very wrong

Why so dangerous? Why does the sky fall if Bush loses 49-51?


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Deda
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 03:22 PM

I loved the Kerry speech, and the entire convention. I watched it every night, although I missed a few bits, including Theresa H-Kerry -- but I already knew I liked her a lot, for all the reasons that the press tend to piss on her. She's a smart, free-thinking, independent, strong, unafraid woman -- that'll get her plenty of terrible press, and my admiration. The whole week was politically very encouraging and hopeful for me. I was sorry that the serious war protesters were shut out, and that there were efforts made to make the Kucinich and Dean delegates changes sides -- but I was pleased that a number of them didn't. I am extremely grateful to Dean and Kucinich for broadening the debate, for carrying the message that there really still is a LEFT wing in American politics, the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

The polls still show the Rs and Ds neck and neck, but that's because they only poll the likely voters. The Dems, at least in Colorado, are making a serious, organized effort to register and bring out the UNlikely voters (renters, college kids, single mothers, Latinos, non-English speakers, et al). Colorado, which has historically been a solid republican state, is now in play. I'm tentatively optimistic that the polls are seriously wrong nation-wide.

Brucie, there is an excellent reason why nobody responds to your request for some of Bush's positive accomplishments. It is not that we don't understand the question. And your posts ARE arriving legibly, comprehensibly. See if you can guess why there are no answers.
Hint: Try asking people to list their favorite purple cows.

Guest, please do vote for the Greens.
PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:08 PM

"The voting system is not "capitalist", but republican (lower case R) or representative. Capitalism is an economic methodology."

Doh!

Amos, you know what I said about you middle class liberals not getting it?

It is dangerous because everyone knows that the Anybody But Bush mentality is really just Democratic sour grapes over being robbed in the last election. Kerry is right about the Bush bashing in that respect. The entire country is REALLY tired of hearing the Bush bashing that is de riguer at Mudcat. I started speaking up about it for the first time after Nader announced his candidacy when the primaries ended. But the rest of the country is REALLY sick of the Art Thiemes, the Nerds, the Amoses, the Big Micks (especially them), the Bill D's, etc. in this country who refuse to give it a rest and come up with some damn solutions.

Voting for another Republicrat doesn't seem like much of a solution to most Americans. Which is why we are in grave danger right now. With Kerry as the Republicrat candidate, the big danger is EVERYBODY STAYS HOME. He or Bush squeaks in on a 51/49 vote, and it is hostile, open warfare between the Republicans and Republicrats for another 4 years while the rest of country watches "Amish in the City", drinks heavy, and the domestic violence rates go through the roof.

Unless there is a landslide victory by Kerry in November, the polarized dynamic won't change, and it will be at least another four years of dealing with polarizing personalities instead of the issues that desperately need attention. Which is just what the global capitalists want. Fewer voters--but ESPECIALLY fewer working class and poor voters.

So long as the Republicrats for Middle Class Values keep nominating Republicrats for Middle Class Values to run for office in the US, the working class and poor voters stay home, The same is being done by the Anglocentric global plutocracy in Britain, the US, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. The Anglo plutocrats are currently beating out the European Union plutocracry, (especially with those juicy reconstruction contracts in Iraq, not to mention all that Iraqi oil that used to be in the hands of the EU plutocracy) and that is what this whole "international" spat with Bush/Blair has been about.

You all think it is just a coincidence that the Coalition of the Willing was an Anglo coalition? That the Iraq invasion worked like a charm to beat out the EU coalition in getting it's hands on Saddam's oil?

The global capitalist ruling elite orchestrates all this. Which is why they keep rigging the voting systems in the US, Canada, Australia, and Britain. They haven't succeeded yet in New Zealand, France, and Germany where there are strong currents fighting to keep the capitalists from completely taking over. The Russians have organized crime syndicates running the show, which also prevents the Anglo or EU global capitalist plutocrats from gaining a foothold there.

But the Anglo global capitalist plutocrats are winning so far, and one of the main ways they do it is by peddling this rotten to the core political systems running in the US, Britain, Canada, and Australia. So long as they can keep it running without any changes, the effect is to have a Saudi-like political realities on the ground (a repressive plutocracy with no elections), with the capitalist Anglocentric plutocracy, with the illusion of democratic elections.

The only way a Democratic victory in the US will be a good thing is if the Democrats defeat the Republicans in the presidential AND congressional races, and win the White House by a HUGE margin--at least 10+ points. That would be the equivalent of an 8.0 earthquake in political terms in the US.

If Kerry can pull that off on his own without any catastrophe or crisis occuring to sweep the Republicans out (like a major terrorist attack or something), I'll eat ALL my words. But I ain't holding my breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:22 PM

Well, your stuffed-shirt intellectual criticism is pretty easy, just wave arms and tongue in equal vehement measure.

What I see is denigration. What I see is criticism without any positive approach. Oh -- except for voting for the Green party on principle. Good luck with it.

That's one vote that won't be part of the Richter scale. And probably some others that haver been dissuaded by the high-falarum politick-thinking from your camp.

At this point I only see one real short term goal, which is getting the goddamned big money out of office. Your branding them all with the same fancy label as Republicrats because they are both too close to the center for your tastes just does them a disservice. But that's what you do best, is disservices.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:27 PM

I should say, if Kerry can win with at least a 10+ point victory AND have Congress change from Republican to Democratic control, even marginally, then the Democrats might be able to declare a modest, temporary victory and get on with repairing the damage done in the last 30 years under both Democratic and Republican administrations. But that is ONLY if Democrats are emboldened to effect true change. If it is back to the Democratic dominant status quo we had for most of the last century, we are truly fucked.

Again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:46 PM

The problem isn't with where they are at on the political spectrum Amos. The problem is where they get their funding.

Voting for Kerry ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT get big money out of office.

I think you must be insane, Amos. For a smart guy, you are pretty damn ignorant of the facts. But then, self-serving Republicrats for Middle Class Values like yerself are very seletively ignorant when it comes to politics anyway.

And BTW, I do a lot more than just vote every 4 years Amos. I'm an inner city public school educator. I am an active governing board member for my housing coop. I am an active member of my food coop. I also volunteer here and there all over the place as my time and energy and schedule allows. I donated money and/or volunteered time this year so far to Nader, the Greens, the bus drivers strike fund, Democracy Now, Center for Victims of Torture, and KFAI radio. I am an organic gardener. So I do lots of stuff, and I don't feel guilty about a thing. As far as I'm concerned, voting Green isn't intellectual masturbation. Voting Republicrat is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 05:07 PM

The entire country is REALLY tired of hearing the Bush bashing that is de riguer at Mudcat. I started speaking up about it for the first time after Nader announced his candidacy when the primaries ended. But the rest of the country is REALLY sick of the Art Thiemes, the Nerds, the Amoses, the Big Micks (especially them), the Bill D's, etc. in this country who refuse to give it a rest and come up with some damn solutions.


GUEST, you have serious delusions of adequacy. The country is REALLY sick of us "republicrats" and REALLY appreciates you greens, huh? That's why 96% will vote for either dems or repubs, and 4% if you're lucky will vote Green.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

Guest:

As far as that goes, what is this definition of Middle Class values that you keep accusing others of?

The middle-class people I know strive to live peacefully, contribute value, earn the wherewithal to survive, raise their kids the best they can see to do, support various churches or not, pay their tithes and taxes to town county and State, get laid once in a while and have friends. They try to do right in the world. What is it you think they should be doing that they are not?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:25 AM

As far as I'm concerned, pest ghoster is emulating again... The words are empty rhetoric, the attitude is cliche, and the purpose is pure 'Bush re-election commitee'. The democratic movement that is happening here, with Kerry's nomination, is clear to the American public, and the world at large. The US government is going down a very dangerous path, and we must turn back. We have to backtrack, and we need a centrist oriented politician to do this. A guy with a keen appreciation of conscietious behavior. There is a certain 'health' that a democracy must have in order to attain the vigorous societal growth that radical positive change requires. Third party politics are only valid when the civil liberties of the American people are guarenteed... when the Constitution is being upheld... when the press acts with the clear intention of opening the public mind... when our mess is cleaned up in Iraq... when the Alies we once had come back to our side because we listen to them and act in concert with them in the world arena...

...and when the American public is resonably informed on the complex issues we face... and the true cost of pandemic ignorance.

Kerry is exactly who we need right now, and guest's mock radical performance is just making this all the more obvious...

Small steps in the right direction sounds good right about now...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:31 AM

Oops ...conscientious behavior... it's too late for this boy. G'nite...


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: RichardP
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 10:42 AM

Since this thread has largely deteriorated into a harangue over the justification for Guest voting green, it might be useful to know whether she lives in a genuine swing state or in a safe state where the result is already decided beyond all reasonable doubt. If the latter, she should be allowed to go ahead and vote with her perception of her conscience since her vote is politically irrelevant. If she is in a swing state, she needs to consider the consequences of a Bush victory in that state by a margin that is less than the Green vote in that state especially if that state is the Florida of 2004. In that case she and her like would have put Bush back. She would have ensured an ultra-conservative supreme court for the foreseeable future. She would have undermined everything that she holds politically deirable and worse than all these she would then live through the next four years in total denial of her responsibility.

Empty gestures are worth the content of any empty pot - nothing.

Richard


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

I'm in a swing state: Minnesota.

Now, the question is why aren't all of you haranguing the people who have said they too will vote Green or for Nader, like Bobert. I do see you being condescending and patronizing to him on occassion too.

The answer is, there is personal animosity towards me by the Mudcat royals, as akenaton has noted, that has gone on for a long time because I don't share Big Mick's views on the military, essentially. I'm not militarisitic enough for him, and refuse to worship at the altar of "our troops".

If my vote is so irrelevant there Richard, why are people here so damn concerned with trying to get me to see things their way, hmmm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM

The middle class values are:

conformity

indifference

greed

smug and arrogant

overly complacent

cowardice

passive/aggressive behavior as "normal and healthy"

pathological hatred of people in need (the disabled, the poor, the socially and politically disadvantaged, people in need of more education, better health care, etc)

That is a pretty good start of the values of most (not all) of the middle class people I know that are objectionable. Of course, everyone one of them would deny they are anything like that. They would tell me they are just like me, and they too are progressive.

You paint a nice, pretty, innocuous one dimensional picture of the middle class and of yourself, Amos. It isn't a realistic picture. I know that the above behaviors and values are just as prevalent among the working class and poor as it is the middle class. I know that there are good people who are middle class, and even a few good people who are wealthy (although those numbers seem to diminish pretty dramatically among the upper classes).

I am talking about the qualities, behaviors, values of the mainstream majority and the effect those behaviors and values have upon the dominant Anglo American culture. Intelligent people know there is a lot of racism among people of color, class bigotry among the working class and poor, etc.

The only real difference between working class and middle class is who much power do people wield in our society. There really isn't much the lower classes can do to bring about the needed political, social, and economic changes that would make us a much better society because they exercise no control whatsoever over the institutions. The middle class does. The middle class could, if it chose to, revolutionize our nation for the better, literally overnight.

But they don't. And they don't because they are conformist, indifferent, greedy, arrogant and smug, cowardly and over complacent, overly passive aggressive towards anyone who displeases them for any reason, and because they hate disabled people, poor people, people of different races and religions than themselves (regardless of their race, ethnicity, or religion), and anyone who needs them to provide care for them--like our children and elders, new immigrants to the US, etc and certainly for those rat bastard Arabs and Muslims (the current group most loathed by the US middle class). That is why we are at war with the Arab/Muslim Middle East.

John Kerry has no intention of ending that war on the Arab/Muslim world. He, just like Bush, will carry on with the imperial Anglo crusades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:52 AM

Well, you took the test and got less than a passing grade.

IF you think smugness and condescension are values -- especially for me -- you got two more thoughts coming. I don't hate people in need, either. I do think there is something wrong with espousing neediness, but I have seen lots of need in my life. I did not stay that way, though.

IF you're talking about the culture as a whole, yeah, I hear you; the traits you list are unpleasant; but I think they are as likely to be found in the streets of Basra as of Cincinnatti.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:05 PM

"Well, you took the test and got less than a passing grade."

Another serious problem with the middle class that the working class and poor don't share: they have a lot of education, yet remain ignorant and ill informed by choice.

And Amos, you are smug and condescending to people here all the time. Your remarks: "I do think there is something wrong with espousing neediness" and "I have seen lots of need in my life. I did not stay that way" is a classic textbook example of the hatred of people in need I'm talking about. Classic.

And the traits I speak of are as common in Basra as Cincinnati. The difference is what can people of conscience and integrity who transcend those traits do there, as here, to bring about the needed changes to raise our societies up and with it, human beings treatment of one another.

If you live in Basra right now, there is precious little you can do to effect insitutional change because the institutions are in tatters thanks to the US led "Coalition of the Willing". Just as if you are among the poor or working poor of Cincinnati, there is precious little you can do to effect institutional change there because you don't have the power to influence those institutions. You may, if you are one of the lucky ones, be able to better yourself, hopefully your family too. But even that is a pretty tall order for most people who live at the bottom of the economic ladder.

Oh, I forgot to mention another trait I hate about middle class people like you Amos. A complete, utter lack of compassion and empathy for human suffering, unless it is you and yours doing the suffering. Then there is no expense too great to save you from it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

And here is a direct quote from the first post of another thread I shall not name, that exemplifies to a T what I am talking about regarding pathological hatred of Bush and a middle class values passive aggressive way of putting it "nicely":

"Anyone interested in a great article bashing G.W.Bush in the most polite & civilized terms?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:50 PM

Pest Ghoster... you are easily as elitist as you say Amos is... but you are much more negative, and your views are simply nihilistic... please... think good thoughts. The 'I'm a mean and agressive (never passive agressive) burn the establishment, self agrandizing radical' trip is a looney toons misadventure all your own. Teamwork goes against grain of the pain you are nurturing...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM

Dear Guest:

You have demonstrated one too many times that you don't know what you're talking about, no matter how passionately you talk.

Your carping has led me to this place before, and I waffled on breaking any link with you because occasionally I see a spark of intelligence and maybe an ideal or two peeking out of the clouds of harangue. But I am done with this crap. Don't bother trying to fool me a third time.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 12:54 PM

"...the Art Thiemes, the Nerds, the Amoses, the Big Micks (especially them), the Bill D's, etc. in this country who refuse to give it a rest and come up with some damn solutions."

well, I'm glad to be in such exhalted company....and I HAVE "some damn solutions"....but I don't post them here 'seriously', because they fall into the same class as did Will Rogers' when a reporter once asked him 'what to do about the German subs' in WWII..."That's easy, boil the ocean", said Will. When the reporter started to sputter and ask "how in the world he proposed to do THAT", Will said, "Oh, you don't understand..I'm just the Idea Man...we have technical people who'd have to work out the details."
...and that is the way of it...my training is in Philosophy, and my impulse in these discussions is to discern which arguments are resonable and coherent and ultimately, useful...as opposed to those which are based on false premises, bad logic, personal axes and animosities, impractical & short-sighted techniques...etc. It is NOT a precise science, but it can usually sort out the wheat from the chaff.
   Trouble is, people don't WANT to conduct meta-arguments about their positions, they WANT to yell, accuse, promote, dare, shame, tease, ridicule and otherwise put down positions which differ from their own! The situation is similar to the definition of Theology I saw once.."The finding of bad reasons for what one already believes on faith."

A lot of this discussion boils down to Pragmatism vs. Idealism...."lets vote for Kerry right now, as the lesser of two evils, and see what can be done on the grass roots level later" OR "let all sane men vote Green, or Libertarian...or Anarchist...and SHOW the bastards we aren't all taken in by their false promises"

NEITHER side usually considers the long-term solutions and strategies of it all...but I'll tell you, the Right-Wing Conservatives are doing better at it right now! They are Gerrymandering, packing the courts, designing single-issue topics to lure voters with narrow views and refining the art of making the other guy respond to spurious charges.

I'm sorry...I don't HAVE detailed plans to "make it all better immediately"...unless you grant ME unlimited power to rule by decree for a few years! No?...I didn't think that would fly. My platform would involve total re-organization of the voting process, (including the choosing of candidates), reform of the court system, wholesale changes in the tax system, ...and stuff done to the educational system that would leave your jaw on the floor! Add to all that many manditory restrictions on immigration and serious population reduction, and you'll see why I don't bother to run for office..*grin*...all I do from my position and at my age, is try to make points about the best Pragmatic choices we can make from the REAL choices available.....and KNOWING that I'm unlikely to change very many minds...here or RT, I also use this forum to hone my own thinking and to learn from the rest of you about possible directions & attitudes.

oh, and unlike some "Guests", I also post my name and laugh & joke and follow the folk music threads and MEET the good folks here and share life.

I personally, would REALLY appreciate it if "guest from Minnesota" would USE something like that to be sure the other ranting "GUSTS" (typo...I think I'll leave it...*grin*) don't get mixed up in my head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

GUEST, aren't you being just a little judgmental here? [Rim Shot!!]

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:42 PM

Sorry. Tossed my cookies when I shut down last night and forgot to log in today.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 02:45 PM

Thomas the Rhymer, for a guy who never reads anonymous guests' posts, you sure seem to know a lot about what I say in mine.

Actually Don, I know I come off sounding judgemental to the people I'm criticizing, especially when my words hit close to home for them.

Why would that surprise anyone? There is, after all, plenty of people being judgmental about me in this thread too, now isn't there? Many more of you too, which isn't really fair now is it?

But I'm not complaining. I'll continue using the information I possess, my writing skill, and my logic to discuss the issues here. What people say about me is irrelevant. It's the opinions and the information exchange that count in discussions like this, not the personalities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM

I have never said or implied that I don't read your posts, 'pesty'... I'm interested in this thread, and sadly... your posts are in it. What are you on about, really... I mean this is pathetic!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:29 PM

Mick ...Sorry took so long to respond.

Iv been on Mudcat well over a year now, and never been called a "troll" before.
Im a regd. member, only have one Mudcat personna and write as I feel.

If I were a "troll",I certainly would not be "trolling " for you, as I dont find your middle class ideas of much interest one way or the other .
Leaving aside your militaristic past, the fact that you were a Union organiser,means the Capitalist System is your "raison d'etre".

Stop shootin....Gun and mouth ,and start thinkin....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM

It's about disingenuous people like you making statements suggesting that only Kerry voters love their country, like you did in your first post to this thread, which I quote:

"Love your country, vote FOR Kerry."

Or the disingenuousness of your outright lie, that anyone who doesn't vote for Kerry is what you keep calling "bushmen" like you did in this statement:

"...and now for the tsunami of negative attacks from the nay-faring bushmen... "

And here, accusing me (referring to me as 'pest ghoster'), a supporter of Nader and Cobb, of working for Bush in this statement (you wouldn't be the Mudcat member that keeps posting anonymously making the same claim in so many of these threads, would you Thomas the Rhymer?):

"The words are empty rhetoric, the attitude is cliche, and the purpose is pure 'Bush re-election commitee'."

And of course, third party politics and the progressive movement is your true target, oh reasonable and nice and loyal to the status quo Thomas the Rhymer, as we can tell from this statement of yours:

"Third party politics are only valid when the civil liberties of the American people are guarenteed... when the Constitution is being upheld... when the press acts with the clear intention of opening the public mind... when our mess is cleaned up in Iraq... when the Alies we once had come back to our side because we listen to them and act in concert with them in the world arena...

...and when the American public is resonably informed on the complex issues we face... and the true cost of pandemic ignorance."

In other words, NEVER!

We've heard all that lame ass "it isn't safe to be progressive right now, but we promise, if you help us win THIS ONE ELECTION, we'll be progressive LATER" from the Republicratic party before.

In 2000 from Gore/Lieberman.

In 1996 from Clinton/Gore

In 1992 from Clinton/Gore

In 1988 from Dukakis/Bentsen

In 1984 from Mondale/Ferraro

In 1980 from Carter/Mondale

See the pattern, there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:08 PM

Speaking as a foreigner, one of the weak points in this -- er, discussion -- is one of the guests' assumptions that the whole raison d'etre of the Democrats at the moment is their anger at having had the 2000 election stolen from them. This seems implausible: what amazed everyone else was how easily the Democrats (Al Gore in particular) threw their hand in -- as if it was crucial to back the President, whoever he was. It is hard to imagine the Republicans doing the same if the Supreme Court had given the election to Gore. We would be knee deep in conspiracies every day on every television network (apart from the obvious conspiracies that did occur, and which remain surprisingly of little concern). Letting this sort of thing get away reminds one of how strangely supine liberals can be when faced with ruthlessness. The great Arab historian Ibn Arabi had interesting things to say about this in his view of history as alternating between weak city liberals and vicious barbarian bandits (Ayn Rand had a similar perspective, which seems to have operated as a perfect guidebook for the neo-cons). Perhaps it requires years in the wilderness to rediscover your backbone.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM

I believe Gore and the Democratic party acquiesced as quickly and completely as they did (don't forget, the House Black Congressional Caucus and some of their supporters did not join that acquiescence), first and foremost because they knew they couldn't win. They knew Bush was in.

They also were very smart strategically to do it. By doing it, they were able to blame Nader, and by extension, the progressive wing of the Democratic party and the progressive coalition that was forming in 2000 that Nader took advantage of, and beat them over the head with it. They only appear to have acquiesced though, because everyone knows they've been fanning both the "Hate Nader" forces and the "Hate Bush" forces flames since 2000. Funding them too. They also cynically took advantage of the rightward swing of the population in the wake of 9/11 and the Iraq war, by shouting down, demonizing, isolating, and (when all that failed) locking up all progressive left voices of dissent. Don't forget, they too supported the Patriot Act. The Iraq war. The Bush tax cuts. They did all they needed to do to start getting the big money flowing back their way for 2004.

This year, they will likely outspend the Republicans, who weren't quick enough to figure out the 527 organization loophole and drive their Brinks trucks through it first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: RichardP
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

Guest,

You have seriously undermined your credibility in your posty suggesting that Gore gave in supinely in order to open a new route to blame Nader (and you).

Firstly you cannot possibly square your jaundiced view of "Republicat" politicians with a suggestion that any of them would surrender a chance at the highest office in the land just so that he can beat you and your like over the head. It just does not fit in with your carricature of their characters. Furthermore, you have given no indication of the constitutional routes that would be open to them to challenge the Supreme Court ruling. It is just that - Supreme. Maybe it is as much a weakness of the constitution as it is a strength. It is certainly not a supreme example of the supremacy of democracy.

Time for you to sharpen up your act and ensure that you are internally consistent and credible.

Richard


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM

I'm the one who doesn't reply to or usually read anon Guests.

It feels to much like fighting with a blindfold on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:13 PM

Hey ya... pest ghoster! I've read every word you've written in this thread with a modicum of moderation in my muddy mind's eye... and I'm proud to say to you here and now, since you thrash and object to so much that I revere, thanks for thrashing me too, at least I'm in excellent company!

You go girl!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:23 PM

I do not post annonomously. If I mistakenly loose my cookie due to computer errors on my end, I clarify the vagary as soon as realize the mishap. You are a fine one to be accusing here... Once again, your logic is non-sequitor... So what's up, Doc? Run out of carrots? ;^)

ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:55 PM

I said Gore caved because it gave him a strategy by which he could discredit the left wing of the party AND the progressive movement that supported Nader in 2000, and thereby neutralize the left wing that they felt cost them the election.

The left DID NOT vote for Gore in 2000, and had they not been able to successfully demonize Nader and scare half the progressives away from Nader and the Greens this election year, while co-opting and recasting themselves as progressives they most certainly would go down to defeat this November. They had plenty of progressive presidential candidates this year to "prove" how progressive the Democratic party is: Carol Mosley Braun, Al Sharpton, Dennis Kucinich, and even though Howard Dean is no progressive, he did manage to get progressives to sign on to his campaign.

The progressive left has now backed themselves into a bargain with the devil corner. All those who were vehemently anti-war now have to live with a pro-war hawk for their man. That causes some dissonance for them, as can be seen this week in all it's glorious dysfunctional splendor on the Democratic leaning news sites like Common Dreams and AlterNet, where the Nader bashing has been most intense.

So now, they are risking alienating all those nice millions who came out and demonstrated last year against the Iraq war for being duplicitous and not standing by their principles. The just look like the mealy mouth weasels that they are--and I include all the media darlings in this: Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins, etc. All of them have harangued Nader mercilessly and been dupes for the Democratic Leadership Council. It worked for them. Now all those people in the peace movement have to either go against their most deeply held values and do the politically expedient thing and vote for a man who stood before the nation this week and told the world he was sending MORE troops to Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM

Bushisms all, guest. Surely you are on their payroll... your brand of negativity will never evoke positive change.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM

Nerd- In the latest poll Bush is ahead of Kerry 50-46.   Kerry slipped 1 point in ratings while Bush rose 5 points.   USA Today headline siad bounce from convention was lowest in history.    I guess the american people disagree with the pundits you quoted.

PS:   The pundits I quoted were from CNBC- not fox.    I was at the Gin Blossoms concert and got home at 11:00.   The oreilly rerun was on fox so i turned on CNBC.    W

What a surprise.   The liberal media and Jack the Sailor loved the speech.   Would never have predicted it.   Based on the results from the American public I hope Kerry gives more of them.

PS- only 26 seconds in the speech about his 20 year record.    For those of you not good at math- that is about 1 second per year.   If I had his record I wouldn't want to talk about it either.

Keeping it real and staying out of touch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:17 PM

You seem to be cherry picking your polls Larry
read it and weep Larry K.

The USA today Poll puts Kerry at 50-46 with a very small sample of 763 voters

The NewsWeek Poll puts Kerry ahead 49-42

and there is some very good news for Kerry in the USATODAY poll,


Views of Kerry's personal characteristics and leadership improved; views of Bush didn't change much. Bush's edge in handling terrorism was shaved to 12 points from 18. In a switch, Kerry now is trusted more to handle the responsibilities of commander in chief, by 51%-46%.

Kerry's military service is seen as a plus. A 52% majority says it would help him be an effective president. More than one in four say it makes them more likely to vote for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,To Don Firth from Jeremy Boles
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:43 PM

I am looking for Don Firth who took classes at ECC - Fort Knox. Email me at jeremyboles2003@yahoo.com


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