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BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public

Bobert 19 Jul 04 - 10:24 PM
Rapparee 19 Jul 04 - 10:37 PM
Bobert 19 Jul 04 - 10:47 PM
Billy the Bus 19 Jul 04 - 10:48 PM
Bobert 19 Jul 04 - 10:51 PM
Rapparee 19 Jul 04 - 11:30 PM
Amos 19 Jul 04 - 11:35 PM
Peace 20 Jul 04 - 12:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jul 04 - 04:16 AM
el ted 20 Jul 04 - 04:57 AM
Wolfgang 20 Jul 04 - 05:30 AM
kendall 20 Jul 04 - 07:05 AM
mooman 20 Jul 04 - 08:53 AM
jimmyt 20 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM
Rapparee 20 Jul 04 - 09:32 AM
Bobert 20 Jul 04 - 09:36 AM
Rapparee 20 Jul 04 - 11:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jul 04 - 12:04 PM
Rapparee 20 Jul 04 - 01:03 PM
kendall 20 Jul 04 - 02:19 PM
DougR 20 Jul 04 - 02:26 PM
Bobert 20 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Jul 04 - 03:49 AM
Rapparee 21 Jul 04 - 08:56 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM
Rapparee 21 Jul 04 - 09:11 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 04 - 09:14 AM
Greg F. 21 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM
M.Ted 21 Jul 04 - 10:47 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM
Amos 21 Jul 04 - 11:32 AM
Rapparee 21 Jul 04 - 11:32 AM
M.Ted 21 Jul 04 - 01:28 PM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 04 - 01:59 PM
Big Mick 21 Jul 04 - 02:00 PM
kendall 21 Jul 04 - 02:28 PM
Rapparee 21 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM
Ebbie 21 Jul 04 - 03:20 PM
Bill D 21 Jul 04 - 07:23 PM
DougR 21 Jul 04 - 07:33 PM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 04 - 07:36 PM
M.Ted 21 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM
Bill D 21 Jul 04 - 08:25 PM
Rapparee 21 Jul 04 - 08:35 PM
Rapparee 21 Jul 04 - 09:58 PM
Bill D 21 Jul 04 - 10:27 PM
Bill D 21 Jul 04 - 10:55 PM
Amergin 21 Jul 04 - 11:08 PM
DougR 21 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 04 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,noddy 22 Jul 04 - 10:02 AM
Rapparee 22 Jul 04 - 12:26 PM
M.Ted 22 Jul 04 - 12:38 PM
Big Mick 22 Jul 04 - 12:45 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 04 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,MMario 22 Jul 04 - 12:56 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 04 - 01:00 PM
saulgoldie 22 Jul 04 - 01:36 PM
Rapparee 22 Jul 04 - 02:01 PM
M.Ted 22 Jul 04 - 02:11 PM
Big Mick 22 Jul 04 - 03:03 PM
saulgoldie 22 Jul 04 - 03:33 PM
Bill D 22 Jul 04 - 03:49 PM
Big Mick 22 Jul 04 - 03:57 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 04 - 04:09 PM
Rapparee 22 Jul 04 - 04:33 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 04 - 04:38 PM
Bill D 22 Jul 04 - 07:40 PM
Bill D 22 Jul 04 - 08:36 PM
M.Ted 22 Jul 04 - 09:52 PM
M.Ted 23 Jul 04 - 02:14 AM
Bill D 23 Jul 04 - 06:32 AM
saulgoldie 23 Jul 04 - 08:12 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Jul 04 - 08:25 AM
Rapparee 23 Jul 04 - 08:58 AM
M.Ted 23 Jul 04 - 11:52 AM
Bill D 23 Jul 04 - 08:58 PM
TS 23 Jul 04 - 09:09 PM
Bobert 23 Jul 04 - 11:27 PM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 23 Jul 04 - 11:39 PM
Bill D 23 Jul 04 - 11:45 PM
Seamus Kennedy 24 Jul 04 - 01:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jul 04 - 06:48 AM
Rapparee 24 Jul 04 - 10:24 AM
freda underhill 24 Jul 04 - 10:35 AM
Bill D 24 Jul 04 - 02:33 PM
Rapparee 24 Jul 04 - 03:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jul 04 - 05:01 PM
Rapparee 24 Jul 04 - 06:13 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jul 04 - 08:59 PM
Bobert 24 Jul 04 - 10:55 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 Jul 04 - 03:40 PM
Rapparee 25 Jul 04 - 05:28 PM
Bobert 25 Jul 04 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 Jul 04 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 Jul 04 - 07:59 PM
Bobert 25 Jul 04 - 08:47 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jul 04 - 11:14 PM
beardedbruce 26 Jul 04 - 06:18 AM
el ted 26 Jul 04 - 06:19 AM
Rapparee 26 Jul 04 - 10:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Jul 04 - 03:58 PM
Rapparee 26 Jul 04 - 04:59 PM
M.Ted 26 Jul 04 - 07:10 PM
Rapparee 26 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM
Bobert 26 Jul 04 - 10:20 PM
Big Mick 27 Jul 04 - 07:53 AM
Rapparee 27 Jul 04 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,francis s 13 Aug 04 - 02:14 AM
GUEST 13 Aug 04 - 02:21 AM
Greg F. 13 Aug 04 - 09:11 AM
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Subject: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:24 PM

I'm not too sure what is going on over in Virgina but within the last week or two more and more white guys have taken to wearing sidearms in public (including bars). A couple of bars have had to ban the wearing of guns because it upsets their customers...

Now, I'm not sure what I am missing here but would someone explain to me why a guy thinks he has to strap on a holster and gun in a highly populated, well lit and policed area to feel safe having a couple beers in suburban Virginia bar?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:37 PM

Got me.

Every state I know of bars you from carrying firearms -- concealed or otherwise -- into places where alcoholic beverages are sold.

Hmmmmmmm...what sort of bars were these? 'Cause if they are the kind where you might NEED a gun, smart folks wouldn't go into them anyway.

As my brother once said, "If I need a gun where I am I'm probably in the wrong place."


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:47 PM

These are like suburban, upper middle class, Northern Virgina resturanats that serve alcohol, Rap... Not really even bars... But Virginia says you can strap on a Colt 45 and gfo whefreever you want as long as it isn't concealed???

Like I said. I don't know????

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:48 PM

Whey probably carry 'em to warn musicians to stay onm-key

Cheers - Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:51 PM

LOL, Sam.

So much fir my old expression "We tune because we care"...

Bring on "We tune 'casue we don't wanta get shot!"

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:30 PM

Da Statutes of da Commonwealth of Virginny sayeth:

"J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit."

and

"§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded firearm on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public (i) in any city with a population of 160,000 or more or (ii) in any county having an urban county executive form of government or any county or city surrounded thereby or adjacent thereto or in any county having a county manager form of government. The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid permit to carry such firearm or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

For purposes of this section, "firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

There's also this (be careful, Bobert!):

"§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor."

Sure might make the preacher move the ol' sermon right along if being "bored to death" was a "good and sufficient reason."


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:35 PM

Sounds like a six-shot revolver in a bar is pwerfectly legal if not concealed, then, if I read 287.4 rightly. 'Zat right? Are we backsliding, boys and girls? Has the day of the Virginian returned?

Dear Gawd, what have we wrought??


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:33 AM

We have wrought iron!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:16 AM

The Virginian always carried a gun when I used to watch him on TV. Don't remember him going into bars though...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: el ted
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:57 AM

I wish I could have a bloody gun in sunny Hull!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:30 AM

In other countries you'd have to wear arms to be allowed to vote: In one part of Switserland only armed persons were allowed to enter the place where the yearly voting was held. No arm, no entry. Women, by the way were not allowed to wear arms. So they couldn't vote, of course only for that reason.

There are funny places with funny customs over the world. Perhaps those Virginians had read about Switserland and only want to show they are true democrats (not: Democrats)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 07:05 AM

One may legally wear a hand gun in plain sight here in the streets, but I doubt he would be welcome in a bar.
I wonder why the murder rate in Maine is so low?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: mooman
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 08:53 AM

"...is that a gun you're wearing or aren't you pleased to see me..."

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

Last night I returned from a few days trip at midnite, and checked the threads really quickly, and honestly   I thought this thread title was Virgins wearing guns. hmmmmmmmmmmm, not a bad idea though, do you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:32 AM

It's been said that "an armed society is a polite society." But I think that it's a Good Thing to prevent folks in bars from wearing shootin' irons -- and so did a lot of towns in the "Old West."

Rule 10: Never Mix Alcohol And Gunpowder. Drilled into me all too close to a a half century ago when I first took up shooting. (My brother used to add to that "...because then your gunpowder's all wet and won't fire.")   At 12 we weren't drinking much alcohol, but we knew what it meant and why the rule was there, and even today we don't take any alcohol until the guns are cleaned and LOCKED away.

Maybe they're afraid of getting short-drinked by the bartender? Maybe they're advertising their need to display big guns because Nature provided them with ones that are so small?

And yes, I have a concealed carry permit. Not that I use it....


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:36 AM

Kendall,

Why such a low murder rate in Maine? Nobody lives there to shoot... The Wes Ginny Slide Rule cut right to the chase in that one but I woulda figured out wid a little more time...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:57 AM

Nobody lives there to shoot.

So, Bobert, you're saying that folks down in Maine ain't worth the powder ta blow 'em away?   8-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:04 PM

Do they wear anything else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:03 PM

Good question, McGrath! Maybe they kin be arrested for indecent exposure. After all, their guns are hangin' out in public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:19 PM

Thanks to Ned Buntline and others, the old west got a bad rep. Actually, there were very few gunfights in Dodge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:26 PM

Bobert: mebbe word got out that you were dropping in for a drink! :>) Any chance those gun toters were Republicans?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

I don't go to YUPPIE bars, Dougie... Republicans? Nah! Jus' true believin' rednecks... BTW, haven't you heard. Republicans are a dieing breed... Plenty of folks who might think their Republicans, though, who couldn't care less how intrusive the federal governemnt is or how much it spends that it doesn't have. Republicans don't like taht kinda stuff...

Ahhhh, no Rap... You trying to get me in trouble with Kendall? I don't need no help in that department, thank you...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 03:49 AM

let's hope it doesn't catch on....become a fashion accesory, like mobile phones did. you'll have to get guns for all your kids. people will say I keep forgetting mine. top up bullets will be on sale everywhere. you'll stay awake wondering should I take out a contract, or shoot as I go.....they'll keep going off in cinemas, and in your pocket....then someone will invent one that takes pictures and you'll have update.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:56 AM

Hey, designer bullets! Yeah!

It goes along with my youngest brother's idea to use various colored flints in flintlocks. He thinks colors like hot pink or a pale mauve might attract a whole new crowd to muzzle loader shooting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

How dare those Virginians exercise their 2nd amendment rights! Next thing you know, they will want freedom of religion, or the right to vote!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:11 AM

Or to pay income tax!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:14 AM

actually, income tax is NOT in the Bill of Rights...


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM

Hey, Lets hope it *DOES* catch on & they kill each other off.

World could stand a few less morons- of whatever ploitical persuasion- in it.

Just hafta watch out for the collateral damage- but U.S. folks seem comfortable with that eventuality in other parts of the world.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:47 AM

Here is an article about it from the website of "The Pentagram" the newspaper at Ft. Meyers--the original article is in the Washington Post, July 15-




http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/9_29/commentary/30198-1.html

No need to check guns in Virginia

by Dennis Ryan
Pentagram staff writer

"Virginia is for Lovers" the old tourist ads for the state used to read. The Old Dominion, The Mother of Presidents and the Mother of States are all well-known monikers for the 36th largest state in the nation.

There is soon to be a new appellation for this old and historic place, "Guns are Us." The Washington Post reported yesterday some gun owners in Virginia were beginning to exercise a legal right in public.

The right is to openly wear a firearm in public, and is guaranteed by a new law which went into effect July 1. Virginia prohibits any locality from enacting their own laws regulating the ownership, carrying, storage or purchase of guns, except in the workplace.

Ssiiiiggghhhhhhhhh. That's bosses exhaling across the commonwealth.

Dangerous venues such as local restaurants and coffee shops are now the scene of gun enthusiasts quietly sipping their low fat latte with a fully loaded pistol.

Now, certainly people's rights to keep and bear arms are rightfully guaranteed by the constitution and now it is legal in the "Quick Draw McGraw State." The birthplace of Jefferson, Washington, Monroe, Madison, Lee and Jackson is now a place, which encourages one to pack a piece in public.

It may be legal, but it is insane. Is it really wise for people to tote a firearm around? It is necessary to have a permit to carry a concealed firearm in Virginia and most other states.

This law obviates the need for a permit as long as one straps the weapon on and wears it openly. If a person works in a convenience store late at night in a dangerous area, perhaps the sight of a holstered weapon might deter malefactors.

Do we want people openly carrying guns just because they can and want to stick their noses at people who believe otherwise? If workplaces are the only locales where holstered guns are limited, does it mean one can wear a gun to church?

Hallelujah, pass the Lord and praise the ammunition. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil -- for thou Smith and Wesson is with me.

How about completing an ensemble with a Colt 45 for a trip to the bank? Tellers would love to have customers walking in armed to the teeth.

Bar rooms would be excellent places to display one's right to carry and to be carried out on a stretcher.

Guns are perfectly fine tools for assigned purposes. They have a long and valued history in this country. But they are also responsible for thousands of deaths every year. The NRA and other sportsmen's groups stress responsible gun ownership. It is completely irresponsible to wear a gun simply because one can. In fact, never was there a more perfect advertisement for gun control than the sight of a group of nattering Neanderthals with small members, infinitesimal IQs and large bore hand guns walking into a quiet suburban restaurant. Let's not allow Virginia to be known as the land of the quick draw, the slow wit and the dead.

Guns are for self-defense, hunting, the disposal of rodents and other practical uses. They should not be used by showoffs to make an ill-considered political point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM

Under the SRS Rule, no quotes on gun control from the Washington Post, an openly anti-gun source, may be used in any arguement on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:32 AM

Oh, BB, stop with the make-wrong, eh?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:32 AM

I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Idaho. I have had one for Kentucy and for Indiana in the past.

Now, Idaho is part of the Old West. Henry Plummer, vigilantes, fights with the Indians, stage coach and train robberies, Butch Cassidy and other such folks -- they're all part of the history of the area.

I don't pack a gun, except to go to a shooting range where I shoot paper targets (bull's-eye type). I know other people who have similar permits; they don't carry a gun either. We could, but we don't.

The only guns I've seen carried on the streets or in various businesses are those carried by the cops.

This is also true of my experiences in Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington, Colorado and Nevada. I'm not saying that there aren't those who do, I'm only stating my own observations.

So far, they tell me that the "Wild West" is in Arlington, Williamsburg, Richmond, and other such places.

Yippee-ki-yo, y'all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 01:28 PM

Skeptical, bearded bruce? Here is a piece from the Washinton Times, the Beltway's main conservative newspaper, owned by Sun Myong Moon himself--you gotta trust him!--


Gun rights advocates defend open-carry law

By Christina Bellantoni
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Virginians who exercise their right to carry guns in public have been criticized — even ridiculed — in recent days by critics on the both sides of the Potomac. But many gun rights advocates, state lawmakers and residents point out that it's much safer to shop, drive or walk along a street in Virginia than in the District, where handguns are banned and police just declared a "crime emergency."
    "Criminals don't want to come up against somebody who is willing to protect themselves," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the gun rights group Virginia Citizens Defense League.

    Mr. Van Cleave said Virginia also is made safer by people who carry concealed weapons.
    "The idea there is the criminals don't know who's carrying a gun," he said. "They don't wish to mess with people much because they don't know who will be able to defend themselves."
    Mike Stollenwerk, a Fairfax County resident and a permit holder, said being able to carry a weapon openly gives people a sense of security.
    "It's an insurance policy," he said. "I'm not a statistician, but it makes people feel more safe when they have the right to carry."
    Virginia Delegate Mark L. Cole agreed that streets are safer when law-abiding citizens can arm themselves.
    "Citizens have an inherent right to be able to defend themselves," the Fredericksburg Republican said. "You can't always have a policeman on every street corner to take care of you. Whenever you have a bunch of gun-control laws that prohibit people from carrying, the ones with the guns are the criminals. You wouldn't be able to defend yourself."
    It's always been legal for permit-holders to carry handguns openly in Virginia, but recent sightings of gun owners displaying holstered handguns has some people spooked. More than 20 states have open-carry laws; it is illegal to carry handguns openly in Maryland and the District.
    Virginia state Sen. Janet D. Howell says she was surprised when a D.C. resident sent her an e-mail saying he won't be crossing the Potomac into Virginia anymore because of the open-carry law.
    "He feels that the District of Columbia is a safer place to be," said Mrs. Howell, Fairfax County Democrat.
    Crime statistics, however, indicate that Fairfax County is much safer than the District, even though the city has a fraction of the population of its southern neighbor.
    From January through April this year, Fairfax County had four homicides while the District had 64. There were 189 robberies in Fairfax County compared with 1,214 robberies in the District, and 18 rapes compared with 100 rapes in the city.
    D.C. Police Chief Charles H. Ramsey declared a "crime emergency" yesterday, allowing him to temporarily suspend staffing guidelines negotiated with the police officers union.
    An NBC 4 online poll showed that 84 percent of the 4,880 people surveyed support the right of Virginia gun owners to carry in public.
    Still, Mrs. Howell said she agrees with those who say guns in holsters pose a serious threat. She tried unsuccessfully to persuade the state legislature to ban guns from establishments that serve alcohol and vowed to try again next year.
    "It's pretty obvious that guns and alcohol don't mix," she said. "Having guns in places that sell alcohol puts the public and employees at risk. People don't necessarily think straight when they are drinking."
    Mr. Cole sponsored the legislation that created uniform open-carry laws throughout the state, which took effect July 1. The new law supercedes ordinances in cities such as Alexandria and Falls Church, where it had been illegal to carry openly within city limits.
    But some police officers aren't aware of the law.
    One Fairfax County officer recently confiscated guns worn by two persons at a Starbucks. When he realized his mistake, he called the men the next day and returned their guns and did not file charges, said Fairfax County Police Sgt. Richard Perez.
    "Residents see people openly carrying handguns and call us, and we respond," Sgt. Perez said. "We use instances like that to continue to educate all our officers on what the laws are."
    Mr. Van Cleave said there is nothing his group can do to ease the fears of a "small" group of people afraid of guns.
    "We're not seeing panic in the streets in Northern Virginia," he said.
    Mr. Van Cleave said his group does not encourage or discourage people to carry openly. However, his e-mail newsletter detailed the Starbucks incident.
    "We alerted our members to that and people were pretty upset," Mr. Van Cleave said. "People decided it was time maybe more people did open carry to ensure our rights and make sure the harassment stops."
    


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 01:59 PM

MTed,

I WORK in VA... I know it is happening- it is the tone of the Post I dislike. Seems like next they will start on those evil moslems practicing their religion, or the fact that other papers are allowed to publish... I object to the attack on the bill of rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 02:00 PM

Every time this issue comes up, law abiding gun owners ask questions and are subjected to ridicule, or patronizing comments. Just answer the questions, folks. Such as "How come the States that have shall issue concealed weapons permits have lower violent crime rates, while places like DC (with it's strict gun laws) have higher rates of violent crime?".

How is it that taking away guns from folks that own them and use them responsibly, will lower crime from those that gain them and own them illegally?

Even the slant of the article above uses these hysteria laden arguments. They give the same weight to one citizen who says she won't cross into VA again as they do the comments of a number of legislators and advocates who indicate the State is safer.

In my home State of Michigan a "shall issue" permit system was installed several years ago over the ranting of those saying there would be a bloodbath. To date the bloodbath hasn't occurred nor have there been any shootouts that I am aware of involving legal gunowners.

I don't expect folks that haven't been raised here to understand all this, but the simple fact is that allowing law abiding citizens to carry a weapon lowers the violent crime rate.

What about accidental shootings where a gun is not properly secured? First off, statistically it rarely happens. But this is one gun owner who believes that the penalties should be very harsh and rigidly enforced. If you are going to own and carry a deadly weapon, it is your responsibility to be properly trained, well practiced, and ultimately responsible for the security of that weapon. There should be no leniency for lax security violations.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 02:28 PM

Everyone knows my stand on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM

You expressed my thought exactly, Mick.

Each right carries with it responsibilities. If you are going to "keep and bear arms" you have the responsibilities to know how to use them safely, to store them securely, when NOT to use them or carry them, and others.

The right of a free press carries with it the right to publish facts and not innuendo and lies. The right to peaceably assemble, the right to redress from the government, the right not to incriminate yourself -- all of them have concomittment responsibilities.

Right now, my firearms are locked inside a secure metal cabinet. In addition, trigger locks are used. What ammunition I have is kept in a seperate, locked, container. And there are no children in our house -- only two semi-mature adults.

According to the National Safety Council, your odds of dying in 2001 (last year for which statistics are available) are 1 in

355,479 for firearms discharge,
388,411 for a fall from a bed or chair,
310,560 for an air or space accident,
19,075 for the occupant of a car,
76,249 for the occupant of a pickup or van,
46,960 if you're a pedestrian,
359,967 for a pedalcyclist,
93,719 for a motorcyclist,
270,487 for drowning in "natural water",
106,657 for burning to death in a structure fire, and
98,004 for poisoning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 03:20 PM

Wolfgang: "In other countries you'd have to wear arms to be allowed to vote"

Wolfgang, I'm curious. What countries are those?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:23 PM

I'd like to have a time machine to go back and ask the framers of the Bill of Rights exactly what they had in mind...and then explain to them what we were up against 250 years later, and ask them if they might like to phrase it all a bit differently.

It is obvious that **IF** all people who can carry guns do so reasonably and responsibly, with proper training, then no general harm will come from the practice. It is also obvious that NOT all people who receive training and obtain guns legally will always BE reasonable and responsible.
It is also obvious that the more guns there are 'out there' in plain sight, the easier it will be for people who are not about to be reasonable and responsible to obtain them...as easily as ambushing a 'legal' carrier and taking his gun! (I assume that 'reasonable & responsible' gun carriers are not going to be always walking in groups, hands on triggers, to prevent this)....

It is also the case that HAVING a gun often tempts formerly 'reasonable & responsible' individuals (borderline cases, no doubt..*wry smile*) to push the limits and get into situations where they might have be tempted to use guns.

Now, if all people who 'could' legally, with proper training, obtain guns, behaved 'reasonably & responsibly', then NONE of them would have much need for one, would they?

Outlaws will always GET a share of weapons, if weapons are easily available, and if more 'open carrys' happen, the more chances for conflict.....

The 'right' to openly bear arms is like various other 'rights'...it is only safe and tolerable if very few do it.

Guns have their place, but VERY rarely do they actually solve a problem in public places. I would rather see ½ of 1% trained and licensed for concealed weapons, than to have 5 or 10% carrying openly! I'd MUCH rather the criminals NOT know who might have a gun.

....and I still doubt that "right to keep & bear arms" meant everyone, since it was preceeded by remarks about needing a Militia for safety..


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:33 PM

Ah ha! Now we know! Rapaire shoots paper targets! Are you aware, Rapaire, that by "outing" every environmental nut on the Mudcat is going to be after you! What are targets made of? Right, paper! And where do we get paper! Trees!

Rapaire causes trees to be cut down!

:>)
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:36 PM

Bill D:

And the one about freedom of speech talks about a free press- nothing about telephone, internet, etc. The intent of the founding fathers, as provided in the Federalist Papers, was that the citizens should not be disarmed, as the British tried to do in Boston and New York.

The whole basis of the impact of carrying guns on a lower crime rate is that criminals do not like to put themselves in a situation that they might get hurt- so if they do not know who might come around the corner with a gun, they are more likely not to mug that old lady, or steal that purse. ALL the statistics have shown that when strict gun laws are crea6ted, the crime rate has gone up in that area. It becomes safe for the criminal, when the police spend the effort making sure that the citizens are disarmed. Since the law-abiding people will then not have weapons, the criminal is safe in anything he/she wants to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM

I would like to see those statistics, Bruce--my suspicion is that the crime rate went up first,and, as is all to typical, opportunistic politicians rushed through anti-gun legislation, as if it was going to solve all the problems--it obviously hasn't, and, unfortunately, no one is saying, "Hey, you idiots, I thought you said that your anti-gun legislation was going to cut crime"--

I think it is a bit ridiculous to go out to dinner with a pistol strapped to your waist just to make a point--though I have to admit that I was amused by it--

I think you are all wrong about criminals and guns, though, bruce--if you follow the murders in Washington, there fair number of gang shoot-outs--obviously either doesn't matter that the other guys are armed, or their guns actually spark the trouble--

DougR--I guess you don't know that a lot of "environmentalist nuts" are also "gun nuts"--and that hunters were among the first, and continue to be among the most active conservationists--and, as I never tire of pointing out, the first presidential candidate to belong to the Sierra Club was Barry Goldwater--

Someone once said, "I love guns and I love ducks. So when I have my gun, duck!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:25 PM

bruce-- I see you have a conservative's notion of what "strict" gun laws might be. Let me craft a few laws and set up the rules to enforce them...and a few years to undo all the harm already done, and we will see. (Fat chance of THAT happening, huh?)

Indeed, gun laws with many loopholes and few teeth will protect no one....and a country with millions upon millions of unregistered and/or unregulated guns will not be safe no matter WHAT the laws about using and carrying are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:35 PM

Doug, my targets are all made from 100% post-consumer recycled paper. I fire on a 100% post-consumer recycled shooting range, the backstop of which is the side of a mountain (it really is!). There are no trees at the range to hug, but if you want to come out and hug something there, I can set you up with a delightful little sagebrush I know. It's not very far downrange, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:58 PM

Ah, Bill D., if there are so many guns in this country, and the owners are so careless and mindless as you imply they are, how come we aren't all wading around in blood?

From the same site I cited and linked to earlier.

For the United States:

In 2001, there were 160,009 deaths from all external causes -- falls, poison, shootings, car wrecks, everything.

Of these, 802 were by "accidental" firearms discharge, 323 were by legal intervention firearms discharge (shot by a cop, I guess), 231 were by firearms discharge of "undetermined intent" (huh?), 11,348 by "assault by firearm" (murdered, I suppose) and 16,869 people committed suicide with a firearm. That's a total of 1,356 deaths (excluding the murders and suicides), or 0.85% of all deaths. (Add in 28,217 murders and suicides and firearms discharge accounted for 29,573 deaths, or 18.5% of all exterally caused deaths.)

47,288 people, or 29.6%, died in transportation accidents (cars, trucks, trains, etc.). 15,019 died in falls -- that's 9.4%. But you can do this yourself.

I'm not sure that we can include the murders and suicides, though, as I wonder if the suicides wouldn't have found some other way if a gun wasn't available. The same might be true of the murders. I don't know, I'm not a sociologist.

But there are a LOT of guns available in the US, and the death figures don't support the supposition that because guns are so easily available they are also readily used.

And before you say I'm not, I AM very much in favor of sensible gun control laws. And I think that the pistol-packin' Virginians are frightening and do nothing but stir up trouble for responsible gun owners and users.

Because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:27 PM

"...if there are so many guns in this country, and the owners are so careless and mindless as you imply they are, how come we aren't all wading around in blood?"

my, you read a lot into what I actually said!...where did I say gun owners are careless & mindless? One doesn't need to be "careless & mindless" to be targeted when one's guard is down. That is what rapists and muggers and car-jackers and bank robbers and plain anti-social extremists...etc...DO! And if an 'extra' free gun is one result of a lawless act, many will attempt it..the element of surprise will allow all too many to succeed.

And "...wading around in blood.." is a straw man-- a presumption that only the most extreme problems require preventative measures. Many families every year see all the unnecessary blood they care for, due to careless and/or illegal use of guns.

I have no intent to ban all firearms, but I see NO good that can come of a return to the Old West tradition of self-defense. That was fine, and often NECESSARY when sheriffs were few and widely dispersed, and guns were slow firing and often inaccurate and ammunition was carefully hoarded. Those kids at Columbine High had an arsenal of high powered, fast firing weapons available....obtained by a little deception and tolerated by society.

(please don't tell me that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and that education and social change are needed, not gun control...'cars' don't run over people either, careless people do, but cars are MUCH more a requirement, especially in the West, than guns are.)

as I said, let me write the laws---hunters will still be able to hunt, collectors of classic weapons will still be able to collect...but kids with bad attitudes will have to WORK much harder to take out their frustrations on their classmates!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:55 PM

I do wonder if we'd agree on what constitutes 'sensible' gun control laws...I sure hope so!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:08 PM

if those carrying are properly trained in the usage and safety of a firearm....then what is the problem? i don't carry one because I don't think I need one...but if I felt that need then why shouldn't I be able to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

Well, Amergin, I'm with you. Why not?

Rapaire: Now way, my friend. You'd probably find a sagebrush behind that environmentally friendly target and I ain't bitin' on that!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 09:53 AM

...how come we aren't all wading around in blood?

In some areas, notably inner city neighborhoods, "we" are.

Move from the general statistics to the specific & the picture changes dramatically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 10:02 AM

Oh sorry !Read this wrong. It says Virginians


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:26 PM

Sensible: well thought out and considered.

For instance, I fully support the idea that ANYONE -- ANYONE -- who wants to own firearms should be thoroughly trained in not only their use and care, but the ramifications of owning them.

I would like to see the current hodge-podge of laws made uniform, so that if I were traveling from, say, Pennsylvania to Vermont I could legally carry my firarms through Massachusettes without getting a permit to do so.

Precisely because there are so many guns available I'd like to see a gun safety course taught in every school.

I'd like for Hollywood to give over the idea that a gun or an explosion is a solution for every problem, that a gun is a tool and not a solution in itself. (I'd just like them to realize that not every car accident ends in a flaming explosion, or that shooting a car doesn't automatically cause it blow up, even if you hit the gas tank.)

I'd like the media to report ALL news as news, not as yellow journalism or as a screaming tabloid. I'll settle for reporters who know something about what they're sent to cover.

I don't view the problem in isolation, Bill. Gun worship has been ingrained in our culture by movies and television. There really were not all that many gunfights in the Old West, but Hollywood would have you think otherwise.

I'm between "Ban 'em all" and "I'll give it up when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." And a rational approach is, I think, possible. Nothing will satisfy either fringe, of course.

And no, I'm not going to give you that "guns don't kill people" stuff. Literally it's true; but that's not what's meant.

As for wading around in blood, well, I exagerated and I apologize. I was trying to make the point that nearly all gun owners are decent, rational people.

It's also a problem facing a society moving from rural to urban. What is appropriate here in Idaho is not appropriate in Washington, DC. It's a problem with many facets, such as hopelessness among inner city youth; a feeling that some people are less than others; a disintegration of cultural mores, and lots more.

I'd like to see a holistic approach to it and other societal ills, not this piecemeal business. But I don't see it happening, because it would require those in power to think rather than simply respond.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:38 PM

GregF is right--Washington DC is a great example of that--between the time I posted last and now, there were two shooting incidents--in one, five were shot, one killed, one in serious condition, in another, a fourteen year old boy shot an 11 year old in the back with a shotgun, while the 11 year old was watching TV--

Between 1990 and 2000, more than 4000 people were murdered in Washington--rather startling considering the population (in 2000) was only 570,000--nearly 1% of the population--or slightly less than 1 person out in every hundred was murdered--given that the average person knows between 1000 and 1500 people, each person would have had between 10 and 15 friends murdered during that decade--


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:45 PM

Bill, you and I are good friends, but you are employing the typical tactic of those that "just don't get it". You state a premise that is not correct. It does not matter what the original framers intended, the fact is that guns are a part of the fabric of this country. Further, when one examines the the stat's region by region, what we find is that the incidence of violent crime is significantly less in areas with "shall issue" concealed weapons permits. I agree with you on the issue of concealed versus openly carried. In fact, that is the rule here in Michigan. You may not "brandish" a weapon openly. There are very strict guidelines with regard to when it is appropriate to draw the weapon, and if one does that for any reason other than those reasons, they will lose their permit and weapon.

The bloodbath has never occurred anywhere that the laws have been liberalized. I wonder if someone could investigate whether the incidence of illegal weapons is higher or lower in these states.

One of the posters above wanted to make the point that gun violence happens more frequently in certain areas than other. Right you are. DC is one such area, and it has some of the most restrictive gun laws around. The argument falls apart because it doesn't make the distinction of legally owned guns/gunowners versus areas where folks are not allowed to own legally. The data simply does not support this as justification.

If one could put forth any decent data that demonstrates that by me giving up my legally owned weapons, it would save lives and create solutions to societal problems, I would give them up. But no has, and bear in mind that many of my peers are leaders in the gun control movement.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:46 PM

And in Washington DC, it is against the law to possess a gun. In nearby VA, where they are carrying in public, the number of people being shot is far less.

Just as in the mid-late 1960s, one went to NYC to get weapons, since that was where they were illegal, and thus there was a large crimianl market for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:56 PM

in most places it is a heck of a lot easier to get an ILLEGAL weapon then it is to get a LEGAL one.

I grew up in a very rural community - and even *I* knew who to contact for a gun; but I don't have a clue as to who sold them legally at that time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 01:00 PM

In addition, it is not at all difficult to make a gun. During WWII, the US produced simple shotguns to be dropped to partisans- a piece of 2x4, two pipes, and a nail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: saulgoldie
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 01:36 PM

I find it interesting to note that some similar arguments with regard to the legality/illegality made here that are often made with regards to pot. I note, too that no one has ever been killed when someone pointed a loaded joint at them. Curious how we accept and reject things.

I would also like to point out that the fact that guns may be legal or not is only part of a given local picture. There are many other factors which no doubt affect the equation. Correlation does not necessarily equal causality. Haven't we had that notion expressed in other threads, here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 02:01 PM

Exactly, Saul. That's what I was trying to say when I said a holistic solution is needed.

I've noticed that there is very, very rarely a truly simple solution to any problem, no matter WHAT the politicians say or what we'd like to believe.

As for totin' guns openly...no, I don't agree with it. All you're doing then is bragging that you can. You can do that in Idaho, too, but it's very rarely done. (I exempt cops, historical reenactments, and such.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 02:11 PM

Don't brag too much, beardedbruce--violent crime in Virginia is on the rise, gun-toting civil liberties advocates not-withstanding--just yesterday, in Arlington, a man with a gun tucked into his belt walked up to a 15 year old girl at a bus stop and told her that he would use the gun if she didn't come with him into the adjecent parking facility, where he attempted to cut her clothes off with a knife--mercifully, he was frighten off by a passerby(who was not armed)--

It is a lot easier to slap the hands of law abiding citizens who, though they are far away from the problem, happen to have guns, than it is to go down to the areas where the problems really exist and deal with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 03:03 PM

Yes, and somewhere in the US yesterday someone who was legally carrying a gun saved someone from serious injury, M.Ted. But what do stories such as these prove??? It is the statistical data that will tell us the story, not one off stories designed to further an agenda. Remember Willie Horton? Stories such as these are used as tactics. I am interested in facts, and answers. So far, no one has delivered a convincing argument as to what greater good would be served by taking guns away from folks like me.

Saul, you use a faulty bit of logic for the point you are trying to make. When you say, "Correlation does not necessarily equal causality..", it is just as valid to say that correlation may indeed equal causality. Again I ask folks to drop their group think and ask critical questions. It is fair enough to say that most folks on my beloved Mudcat don't share my view, but I only ask that they examine fact instead of the old groupthink that they have on this issue.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: saulgoldie
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 03:33 PM

I didn't say that some correlation may not in some cases be a part of causality. In any particular case, though, we need something to prove that the correlation IS causality other than just the fact that they both occured in the same time or space. We can make all sorts of correlations, many of which will obviously not have any causal relationship. However, some may SEEM to have one. In those cases, we need some evidence to tie them together. They COULD have a causal relationship, or they could just as easily be BOTH caused by some outside factor that has not beem mentioned.

That is not a viewpoint; it is just logic. It plays no favorites. It is neutral. One hopes that we would rather base much of what we do on some logic rather than just emotion, especially in the area of public policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 03:49 PM

Rapaire..thanks for making the point for me that what is appropriate in Idaho is not in DC...and others have pointed out the ease of obtaining them in Virginia...and that is where many of DCs illegal guns come from. And as demographics change, it IS becoming more of a problem in VA. and other places. I disagree...for now...that gun laws should be made uniform across the country. (It is the correct theory, but is not practical until it can be reasonably controlled on the East coast as well as in Idaho or Montana...and that is gonna be tough!)

Mick...I try VERY hard to be realistic about guns being "part of the fabric of this country", but as I tried to say earlier, it simply is not a given that what made sense and was a 'tradition' once should always be so. Population density, culture ('pop' and otherwise), technology changes, demographics...etc...all affect how ANY issue (drugs, guns, autos, alcohol, voting rights,...and more) should be viewed and/or regulated.

It is a conundrum....if guns could be restricted to only sane, responsible, trained people like you and Rapaire, then you wouldn't need to carry one....but the more places that they can be obtained, the more they WILL be obtained by those who shouldn't have them. It may NEVER be a 'bloodbath', but it is worse now than it was when I was young, and I HATE the idea of it gradually becoming worse until my grandchildren MUST carry in order to feel even half-way protected.

It is my carefully considered opinion...(like, 25-35 YEARS of thinking about this in both Kansas and the DC area) that we should change some aspects of "the fabric of this country" until guns are strictly limited in caliber, use, ownership, technical construction..etc..and NOT glorified in pop culture. (No, sadly, I don't think I am likely to GET my way)

(Rapaire had it right that Hollywood MUST bear a lot of responsibility for the idea that a gun is 'the easy solution'...we have TRAFFIC altercations settled with guns here regularly!...I have twice in 7-8 years been 'dared' by obvious motions suggesting that the other driver would use a weapon if I challenged his right to be obnoxious!)...so, it's not that way in Pocatello? great! I can tell you that it didn't USE to be that way in Wichita, Kans..... but with drugs and labor problems and changing demographics and such, it is now. .....I once worked in the most upscale grocery store in the city (1963 or so)...when I went by there a few years ago, it was seedy and the office was behind bullet-proof barriers...

I could go on, but 'most' people's feelings about this issue are already set....and usually for reasons which have more to do with emotion than reason. It ends up just a matter of opinion whether it is better to get rid of most guns...or get one for yourself. In my opinion, adding that into the already complex problem of coping with life is more than I want to deal with.

(oh..by the way...tobacco (especially cigarettes) was once "part of the fabric of this country" ...it is FAR less so now...and although the issue of relevant danger is not the same...it IS possible to change that fabric over time!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 03:57 PM

Bill, you know I have great respect for your opinions. It is my opinion that you are one of the most respected folks in these precincts. But I still have a basic disagreement in the logic you follow on this one. I do, however, think we will just agree to disagree and go on being good friends.

Saul, thanks for the clarification. I don't have any problem with the discussion of this issue, but I am troubled greatly by folks that just make pronouncements because that is how we are supposed to think if we are liberal, conservative, whatever. It is apparent to me that I made an assumption about your feelings on this and failed to grasp your point.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 04:09 PM

Bill, the problem becomes that freedom of religion was also once part of the fabric of this country- If you allow the erosion of any part of the Bill of Rights, you weaken the rest. How long until someone decides that religions that are not "western" are a threat to our well-being? Or that freedom of speech is to be sacrificed for the greater good? I have, and will continue to object to the "patriot act", because I feel it is an unreasonable intrusion on our collective rights.No matter how well meaning, I do not wish to establish the precident that the Bill of Rights can be changed in a casual manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 04:33 PM

What I find interesting is that if you want a gun you can get a gun. Making gunpowder isn't hard (potassium nitrate, charcoal, sulphur -- or just potassium nitrate and sugar will work, or potassium nitrate and citric acid, or...), just messy if you have to make the KNO3. A projectile (rocks will work), a barrel to control the flight (a piece of pipe is okay). Or just use a sharpened stick. Do in someone who has a gun, like a cop or a soldier and take the gun and ammo.

Were I King Of Everything, I'd decree that all handguns had to be gate-loading, smoothbore, single action revolvers or, better still, flintlock single shot smoothbores.

Back to the 17th Century, I say!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 04:38 PM

sorry, in massachusetts that muzzle-loading, smoothbore flintlock single shot longarm is considered a dangerous assault weapon, and will get you mandatory jail time... They even put a criminal on their quarter!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 07:40 PM

awww..piffle, bruce! The part of the Bill of Rights that deals with guns has LONG been debated and interpreted differently. This search gets 33,000 hits...you can read every position imaginable. You know what it says .."A well-regulated militia..." etc... What has guys swaggering around with Berettas on their hips got to do with a well-regulated militia? If we need citizens to enhance a militia at some point, training and weapons can be provided. This is about people wanting to have a gun on them no matter where they are, whether in service to country or not! Are we really to hold to the interpretation that makes it easiest to kill one another?

As to other parts you mention, I could begin a LONG discussion about who might be wanting to restrict "Freedom of Religion" or "Freedom of Speech"... but those are different KINDS of freedom than "keeping and bearing arms". One is largely a matter of practicality, while others speak to basic moral precepts....and it does not follow that rethinking one will ruin the others!. I simply do not subscribe to the domino theory of causality..*wry grin*....neither do I assume that the Bill of Rights, as excellent as it is, is somehow "holy", and perfect as handed down. It is a guide, and a good one, and should not be messed with lightly, as it is part of the foundation of this amazing experiment in Democracy....but 250 years DO alter circumstances, and had that document been written today, I will bet that circumstances would affect the wording and flavor. The Founding Fathers were good, not omnicient!

(well, Mick...my logic, even if you consider it flawed, is right out there in moderate detail...to be picked apart by anyone who cares to. Amazing how reasonable people can look directly at the same facts and see totally different conclusions, hmmm?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 08:36 PM

As I sat eating supper and pondering what I and others who disagree with me have posted here, I had this thought, which I would have worked into the above, had I gone slower..
    Logic is a funny thing...the internal logic of your argument can be perfect, but your conclusion can totally wrong or distorted depending on the premises you start with. In the same way, you can be absolutely RIGHT...for the wrong or illogical reasons. In most debates in forums like this, little attention is given by the participants to all those picky distinctions....but we all DO enter most discussions with pre-conceived ideas of what the answer ought to be...and I am as guilty as the next guy. My only claim is that with 127 hours of **Philosophy** strung thru my brain cells, I do try to stay aware of my own prejudices and apply a few filters when I try to enter discussion of substance. And in issues like **gun control**, there is no real way to show that one side or the other is right...except after the fact, and after trying it BOTH ways...and we know how unlikely it is that either side will agree to one of them double-blind experiments on this little polarizing issue, hmmm?      ;.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 09:52 PM

I don't bring up stories such as these, Mick, to prove a point--It's what's happening, here, not "one off stories designed to further an agenda".--they are the problem, and no one really wants to address it head on----I don't advocate gun control, (though I don't really think people should display them in Virginia)--


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 02:14 AM

continued'

I don't advocate gun control--but I do think that a lot of folks who oppose gun control are pretty much indifferent to the epidemic of violence that we are experiencing--

Comments like this-"I am interested in facts, and answers. So far, no one has delivered a convincing argument as to what greater good would be served by taking guns away from folks like me." seem to me to reflect that indifference--you seem to say that the only reason that this stuff comes up is because people are using it as an excuse to take your guns away--it isn't true--you can keep your guns, as far as I am concerned--but I would like it if you would acknowledge that there is a real, severe, problem with violence in this country--

As to the "gun control" folks--I'd really like them to acknowledge that the problem is not based in the availability of guns, it has to do with the fact that, for whatever reason, people are more inclined to act out toward one another violently--


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:32 AM

yep, M. Ted.....if everyone were sane and reasonable and honest, as I said before, we could have guns for sale in K-Mart and 7-11, with no rules...PEOPLE are indeed the problem. But, this being the case, I would like to see stringent rules (and enforcement) keeping guns AWAY from most people. Programs to teach gun safety and explain proper use etc., are of limited use in many areas... (You live near enough DC to know...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: saulgoldie
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:12 AM

Rights and dominoes...and after they take away the guns, the next thing you know, they'll be telling people how to behave sexually. And then, they'll tell you that you must pray to G-d. And not only that, but they'll tell you which G-d and in what way you must pray. But maybe they'll first take away the books. Oh, sorry, they're already doing those things. Wrong thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:25 AM

yes indeed folks its not guns that kill.....

the moral of this thread seems to be if you inhabit solid structures or are occasionally the occupant of a car - time for a major lifestyle re-think!


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:58 AM

Yeah, that's why the walls of my house are padded and the nice doctors take me where I want to go in a nice padded wagon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:52 AM

It isn't guns that kill--they make it easy, but are not necessary--as BillD knows, the latest thing is car theft/joy rides that end in multiple fatalities--


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:58 PM

*nod*....I do indeed read the local papers about the rash of testosterone fueled auto deaths....but, at least it is theoretically possible to limit GUN deaths without severly inconveniencing society as a whole. I am vaguely sorry that the 'right' to own assault rifles and 357 Magnum pistols would have to be limited in order to reduce the tragedies....but perhaps society could manage to struggle on anyway, hmmmm?

(what, me?..cynical?...nawwww...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: TS
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:09 PM

oh..sorry...read the wrong thing on the title of this thread...thought it read "VIRGINS Wearing Guns in Public"...terribly sorry..


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:27 PM

Well gol danged... Ain't this some perdicament? I was jus' getting ready to go down to my loco gun shop and plunk down a few hunner bucks fir a big ol' Stroker Ace Magnum PI 659 with the extra slinky bore fir smooth action... Yup, I even had that baby on lay away and had me a big ol' real leatherette holster fir it that had fitted with the Slick 300 XT Swivel so that all ya gotta do is look the bad guy in the eye and it automatically locks in on him, swivels and shoots him dead without even having to get up from the table down a the local Walmart cafeteria...

But now?

M Ted is the man! I mean *is* the man!!! Heck, why go spend that dough when I could just steal my couzin Rufus's Chevette, run over a couple of folks, and have a few bucks left over at the end of the night fir a cold 6 pack of Iron City??? I mean, life is good....

I don't know why I didn't think of this myself...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:39 PM

I'd like to have a time machine to go back and ask the framers of the Bill of Rights exactly what they had in mind.

What the second amendment specifically says is: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The constitution talks about "a well regulated Militia, there is nothing in the constitution that gives the right to bear arms to private citizens who are not part of the Militia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:45 PM

didn't I just say that, Alonzo?....or mebbe I said 'Zilch'...or mebbe I say it with too many extra thoughts attached....I dunno...


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 01:20 AM

In the words of the great Professor Irwin Corey: Guns don't kill people, and people don't kill people. Bullets kill people; therefore, let us outlaw bullets.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 06:48 AM

30,000 deaths a year
that's a medium sized town every year, every man woman and child.
If the majority of right thinking American people don't perceive a problem there.....

I suppose we have to acknowledge there is a cultural difference between us and wish you happiness in the state of affairs that you have chosen for yourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:24 AM

The trouble with discussions on gun control is the same trouble with discussions about guns: they get boring.

Frankly I don't give an owl's hoot in hell whether the flatter trajectory of the .308 increases your chance of grouping five shots within .5 centimeters at 350 meter over the "rainbow" trajectory of the .45-70 "government" or not. Discussions on the stopping power of the 9 mm vs. the 10 mm are redundant: the FBI tested it several years back. Whether or not the use of boattail bullets in your 30-06 will wear out the rifling in 125,00 rounds instead of 130,000 is of little consequence to me, 'cause neither you nor I can afford that many shots.

Likewise it's hard to ask Tom Jefferson and the rest what they meant by the Second Amendment and whether or not they'd do it differently this time around. There is a gap in many areas between the US and the UK, and gun ownership is one of them. 30,000 gun-related deaths -- most of them homicides -- in a nation of 280,000,000 is .001071%, an amount only slightly larger than what I'd get if I spit into the local reservoir.

I've said earlier that I'd support a holistic approach to gun control, one that including a plan to cultural change. One that recognized that passing a law won't change things very much if the underlying society isn't changed. One that realized that such change doesn't happen overnight and that you'd better plan for (and stay with the plan!) ten or twenty years out.

I've said that I dislike folks flaunting the guns in public ("Show us your guns!").

Phooey. It's a fruitless discussion, because damned few are actually listening or reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:35 AM

Druid in Court Accused over Ceremonial Sword
Scotsman News.com ; Ben Mitchell; 07/14/2004

A druid swordbearer appeared in court today charged with possessing an offensive weapon. Merlin Michael Williams, 26, of Edgell Road, Westbourne, Emsworth, Hants, was arrested on Friday, July 9, after he was stopped by a security guard in a branch of Wilkinson general stores with his sheathed 3ft ceremonial sword slung over his shoulder. He appeared before Portsmouth Magistrates today dressed in a green robe, blue cloak and with talismans around his neck.

Acting as his legal adviser during the short hearing today was chief druid King Arthur Pendragon, swordbearer of Britain, who was dressed in white robes with a red lion emblazoned on the front. About a dozen fellow members of the Insular Order of Druids, to which Williams belongs, supported him by sitting in the public gallery, some dressed in robes.

Williams' sword, which he calls Talisen, was detained as evidence by police after his arrest in Arundel Street, Portsmouth. The case was adjourned after prosecutor Colin Shackel requested time to examine case histories which Williams claimed had set a precedent for druid ceremonial swords being not deemed as offensive weapons. Mr Shackel said: "The charge before the court results from the defendant being found in possession of a sword in a public place in a shop in Arundel Street. "It is accepted by the Crown this was sheathed and there was no offensive action by the defendant. The issue is whether this is an offensive weapon per se." The case was adjourned until August 3 and Williams was bailed until then.

A druid's ceremonial sword is used for casting spells and casting circles spaces of safety, according to a spokesman for the Insular Order of Druids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 02:33 PM

well, Rapaire, I do agree that the discussion, like MANY debates here, gets wearing and followed by only a few...but...*sigh*...you did toss in one more misleading statistic.

30,000 deaths a year is a much larger % of the total deaths...and a VERY high % of the needless & preventable deaths. If were were discussing cigarette smoking I'd say similar things, and I am not arguing with you, personally, but only leaving MY thoughts out here just in case they cause someone to think.. (Max swears that Mudcat will be around a long time...who knows what our discussions will inspire 20 years from now?..*grin*)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 03:45 PM

"From: weelittledrummer - PM
"Date: 24 Jul 04 - 06:48 AM

"30,000 deaths a year"

If it's a misleading statistic, it's not my statistic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:01 PM

(Add in 28,217 murders and suicides and firearms discharge accounted for 29,573 deaths, or 18.5% of all exterally caused deaths.)

sorry if I misunderstood this sentence - there was no intention to mislead

if you're happy with the situation, what's the problem anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 06:13 PM

That's what I said earlier. I was just quoting someone quoting me, and I knew that. I wasn't just "toss[ing] in one more misleading statistic." I just couldn't find my earlier post.

Pull the deaths by suicide and murder out of the figures and the death rate for firearms discharge falls dramatically.

It reinforces the point I've been trying to make all along: we need a complete change in US culture vis-a-vis firearms. A deep, cultural change. Not a half-assed patchwork of feel-good laws put in place after some horrific shootings.

"2. Special Regulations for Military Firearms, Sporting and Hunting Guns

Due to the long tradition and the special organization of the Swiss armed forces as a militia army, special rules are applicable for army weapons. Between their regular annual service of two or three weeks per year, Swiss soldiers and officers keep their personal weapons at home. After they have left the army, they may keep those arms in order to continue practicing at rifle or pistol ranges managed by local communities. Special rules also govern hunting or sporting rifles.

3. Firearms and Crime

The use of firearms in crimes in Switzerland is relatively rare. In 1998, official police statistics reported 66 cases in which guns were used in attempted or successful homicides, 64 cases in which they were used to inflict bodily harm and another 475 cases in which firearms were used in armed robberies."

This is cut and pasted from a fact sheet published by the Swiss Embassy in DC.

Swiss soldier bring their weapons home with them! In the US Army, they are looked up in an Arms Rooms. The Military and Defense section of the same site says:

" The Swiss Constitution states that "every Swiss male is obliged to do military service." Every Swiss male has to serve for at least 260 days in the armed forces. For privates and NCOs, excluding senior NCOs, until the end of the year in which they reach the age of 30 or, if they have not yet completed their training by that time, no longer than until the end of the year in which they become 34.

Women are accepted on a voluntary basis but are not drafted. In the event of war, up to 220,000 men and women can be mobilized."

Remember that after discharge, former Swiss soldiers take their firearms with them into civilian life.

My point is not to argue the superiority of the Swiss over the Americans, but to point out that there have to be a helluva lot of guns -- including modern assault weapons -- in Swiss civilian hands. But the Swiss cultural identity wasn't forged by Hollywood and dime novelists into revering firearms as some sort of magical solution to all problems. The US had that happen. I suspect that changing it would go a long, long way to changing the problems the US has, not just with firearms but in a lot of other areas.

Yeah, I have a concealed carry permit.

I have it because it forces me to review safety procedures for the guns I own.

I've never carried concealed; I've never felt the need to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 08:59 PM

well if you want to ignore all that suicide and murder as irrelevant, fair enough.

Switzerland is a nice country to retire to. My dad did.....It has few of the social problems that our two countries have, and any way they're too busy eating chocolate and yodelling. Switzerland is like the poshest suburb of the nicest city in England - Exeter maybe. The two countries aren't really comparable.

However if the present state of affairs in the States with gun ownership being so widespread makes you happy - I wish you and your fellow citizens joy of it.

Personally I hope to God gun ownership in England stays as it is, pretty much just a few farmers, the criminals and the cops.

all my very best wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:55 PM

I guess no one liked the Chevette idea?......

But really, how many folks out there think the founding fathers could forsee handguns becoming so important in solving domestic differences?

I mean, if we look at the 2nd Ammendment the right to bear arms is *tied* to the establishment of a militia and not a carte blanche direction fir every danged school kid in the inner city to pack heat. That sometimes gets lost in the discussion.

Now when these Virginia knotheads strap on their pieces, where does the militia part come into play???

(But Bobert, it says right here in the Constitution that...)

Shut up and read the entire 2nd Ammendment. Then tell me how the right is not connected in any way with the right to establish a militia...

And keep in mind the times when the Bill of Rights was written.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 03:40 PM

I'm with Rapaire on this. Maybe it's because I live in the other end of Idaho.

But practically speaking, how are you going to enforce prohibition law against guns or drugs or dirty books? Why don't the places with restrictive laws always have fewer shootings?

(Why don't we have a law against crime on Sunday so the cops can have a day off?)

A long time ago I read this in a book whose name and author I've forgotten, so I quote from memory:

The major means for effecting social change today are preaching and legislation. Both are ineffective because they aim for results in a short period of time and they do not affect ritual.

So here we are all preaching about legislation...

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 05:28 PM

Actually, this is getting us nowhere.

Bobert, I kinda suspect that that law, like the one about Sunday that VA recently screwed up, should be rethunk and rewritten. I really don't want to go to Arlington, say, for some shopping and have a bunch of yahoo exhibitionists running around showing their guns.

"Mine's bigger than yours!"
"Is not!"
"Is!"
"Whip 'er out and we'll measure 'em right here on the bar!"

And I really can't imagine a nubile young lady cooing, "Oh, honey, what a great big ol' Dan Wesson .357 you have!"

Iffen they want to tote guns, let 'em tote muzzle-loading flintlocks! That's what was around in 1789.

'Bye, y'all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 07:13 PM

Well, Clint. Fir starters the gun can be traced to a purchaser. Dirty books and drugs cannot.

Yeah, Rap. I think the 2nd ammendment was poorly written but probably written reflecting the realities of the times... Might of fact, I think most of the3 Constitution could use a good rewrite but I certainly don't see how that could happen in today's culture of partisanship and corporate influence...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 07:43 PM

Bobert, then how come people in DC & New York can still get guns?

Prohibition begtes bootleggers.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 07:59 PM

that's "begets." "Begtes" is a nice word, but hard to say. Writing is hard

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 08:47 PM

Yo Clint,

Notice I didn't say this was actually occuring... Just that it is possible...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 11:14 PM

Please don't worry about it getting us nowhere. It was nice to hear you point of view and if we don't agree, well it wouldn't do for us all to think exactly the same.

as Bob Dylan wrote
" you're right from your side, and I'm right from mine..."

from One too many mornings


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:18 AM

BillD,

Please note the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms". The entire Bill of rights was to secure the individual rights of the people, regardless of how you may wish to read it. Or would you say the phrase "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" means only a specific group? What about "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures"? I think it is clear that the intent of the phrase "OF THE PEOPLE" does not limit the 2nd amendment to the militia, which, at the time was the body of all male citizens.


........................
During the debates on the adoption of the Constitution, its opponents repeatedly charged that the Constitution as drafted would open the way to tyranny by the central government. Fresh in their minds was the memory of the British violation of civil rights before and during the Revolution. They demanded a "bill of rights" that would spell out the immunities of individual citizens. Several state conventions in their formal ratification of the Constitution asked for such amendments; others ratified the Constitution with the understanding that the amendments would be offered.

On September 25, 1789, the First Congress of the United States therefore proposed to the state legislatures 12 amendments to the Constitution that met arguments most frequently advanced against it. The first two proposed amendments, which concerned the number of constituents for each Representative and the compensation of Congressmen, were not ratified. Articles 3 to 12, however, ratified by three-fourths of the state legislatures, constitute the first 10 amendments of the Constitution, known as the Bill of Rights.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: el ted
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:19 AM

100. I thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 10:17 AM

"Brutus": Anti-Federalist Papers, #23 (extract):

The European governments are almost all of them framed, and administered with a view to arms, and war, as that in which their chief glory consists. They mistake the end of government. It was designed to save men's lives, not to destroy them. We ought to furnish the world with an example of a great people, who in their civil institutions hold chiefly in view, the attainment of virtue, and happiness among ourselves. Let the monarchs in Europe share among them the glory of depopulating countries, and butchering thousands of their innocent citizens, to revenge private quarrels, or to punish an insult offered to a wife, a mistress, or a favorite. I envy them not the honor, and I pray heaven this country may never be ambitious of it. The czar Peter the great, acquired great glory by his arms; but all this was nothing, compared with the true glory which he obtained, by civilizing his rude and barbarous subjects, diffusing among them knowledge, and establishing and cultivating the arts of life. By the former he desolated countries, and drenched the earth with human blood; by the latter he softened the ferocious nature of his people, and pointed them to the means of human happiness. The most important end of government then, is the proper direction of its internal police, and economy; this is the province of the state governments, and it is evident, and is indeed admitted, that these ought to be under their control. Is it not then preposterous, and in the highest degree absurd, when the state governments are vested with powers so essential to the peace and good order of society, to take from them the means of their own preservation?

Both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers are on-line....

Switzerland was used as a comparison and example for the United States as early as the Constitutional Convention.

Note, took, that the right to keep and bear arms is guarenteed in the US Constitution to all members of the militia, regardless of their politics or religion. In the English Constitution of 1689, the right to arms is granted solely to "Protestants." (That, too, is online.) The US 'militia' was, effectively, all male citizens between 16 and 60 years of age, although it varied from state to state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:58 PM

Rapaire - just for the sake of argument. You are dead right. Two hundred or, three hundred or one hundred years ago - they got it right for then when they made their laws and statutes.

Sometimes though, history teaches us nothing except that things have changed.

Surely its all those people who in desperation picked up a gun because one was so readily available and did something awful - last year, this year and what they'll get up to next year you've got to turn your attention to.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 04:59 PM

Weelittledrummer, isn't that what I've been trying to say? But laws won't do it. Confiscation won't do it. Buy-back programs won't do it.

It's going to take a cultural change, a fundamental change in the American way of thinking. It's going to take a realization that picking up the gun almost always causes more problems than it solves. It's going to take an understanding that there are no simple, magic-bullet, solutions -- that problems are complex and complicated, just like people are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 07:10 PM

>It's going to take a cultural change, a fundamental change in the American way of thinking.

You can't legislate a change in the way that Americans think-but never mind that----so how can you even decide which "cultural changes" to make when people are of such divergent views on the cause of the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

I think that there are some areas of agreement, places where even the NRA agrees. For instance, glorifying firearms and violence in movies, TV, and video games. Let's start there.

Here's the NRA on gun control legislation.

Another area is teaching safety -- including, but not limited to, firearms safety -- to kids. Young kids can be taught "don't touch, get an adult" and older ones more sophisticated practices (e.g., keep people away, especially other kids; get a cop or adult). One of the biggest and best things that could be taught is that a gun is NOT a toy (but see my thing about movies!). But when I say "safety" I mean all areas of safety, not just guns. Kids are hurt in way too many ways, from falls to burns to car accidents, and many of these injuries could be prevented.

There's two ways we could start. And I KNOW that even the NRA is in favor of teaching firearms safety -- their "Eddie Eagle" program has received awards.

No, before you say it, I'm NOT and never have been a member of the National Rifle Association. I am a member of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA), which is another thing ENTIRELY, believe me! (Where else could you see a guy dressed in the full blue-and-buff of an officer of the American Revolution walking amongst tipis and 18th C. tents, a commercial-sized videocamera on his shoulder and a sword in a hanger at his side?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 10:20 PM

Well, I know this is gonna come as a big surprise but I was once a memebr of the NRA but that was in their pre-political days when gun safety and shooting clubs was about all they were interested in...

Now a days, you join and yer gonna get the entire right winged political agneda, from affirmative action to homosexuals to the invasion of Iraq to, to... Name it and if its part of the gun toting Christain Right that's what yer joining...

Too bad. Now parents won't let their kids anywhere near these demogogues and so the kids miss out on what I got from the NRA, which is a lot...

Talkin' about gun safety, I wonder who is teachin' it to the kids who are packin' heat and shooting each other every day of the year in the US?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:53 AM

Yeah, Bobert, I was once a member. I resigned in disgust over the "cop killer" bullet issue. Between that and the assumption on my politics based on gun ownership, when exactly the opposite is true. My politics are now, and always have been, left of center on virtually every issue with the exception of gun control.

One of the things I hate is when the parties to this debate use single incidents to try and prove the predicate. We have an example going on right now, in North Carolina I believe. A neighbor caught a 3 year old on tape playing with a long barrelled revolver. His parents were away from the weapons checking a target. They were also drinking beer. While I don't know all the details, from what I have seen these parents are idiots. If all bears out as it appears, it is my opinion that both need to be in jail. Further, it should be a long time, with a very heavy burden of proof, before they should get their children back.

But, it is one incident, and the likely fact is that these folks probably have many other unsafe conditions around. About all these types of incidents prove is that some folks are not fit parents.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:03 AM

Well, back when the NRA was shooting clubs and the Olympics and such I didn't have the money for dues. Now...well, I disagree with their politics.

That doesn't negate the value of their safety programs or the other good that they do. If the NMLRA ever got to the same point, I'd quit. As it is, during the National Matches in Friendship (yeah, really, it's a town in Indiana NE of Madison, just west of Farmer's Retreat) you are not permitted to even show a modern cartridge firearm to anyone (unless you're a cop, and the State Police do come 'round, at least for a cuppa).

I've been to both the Spring and Fall matches in Friendship several times. Firelocks abound: Lancasters, Hawkens, fusil de chausse, fowlers, chunk guns, snaphaunces, Jaegers, and more. You might see a demonstration of a matchlock or a wheellock -- demonstration only, especially of the matchlock, as everyone is plumb PARANOID about burning embers around loose gunpowder (just can't IMAGINE why...).

You can buy a flintlock at Friendship. Or a tomahawk. Or a capote. Or a pair of knee breeches. Or a mainspring vise. Or an L&R Siler lock in Durs Egg style. Or a Southern-style gunstock in flame-grain walnut. Or a HBC "point" blanket. If you have enough (modern, USD) money you can drive away looking like the early 18th Century fashion pate you are.

If you get a chance, visit Friendship. Take earplugs, 'cause the primary reason for it is a shootin' match, but you won't need them away from the firing line. But go, if you get the chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST,francis s
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:14 AM

help! im a canadian living in australia doing research. i understand that there are places in the usa where people can carry sidearms/unconcealed weapons. anybody know where these places are and what the crime stats are like in these places? thank you so much.

please email me at bloopoid@yahoo.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:21 AM

PHYSICIANS & GUNS

Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171
(US Dept. of Health Human Services)

Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous
than gun owners.

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat.
We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:11 AM

Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor.

Actually the state of health care in the U.S. is such that millions DON'T have a doctor.


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