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BS: So carry on then with the abuse....

Shanghaiceltic 07 Jun 04 - 10:49 PM
Wolfgang 08 Jun 04 - 06:36 AM
kendall 08 Jun 04 - 06:58 AM
mooman 08 Jun 04 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 08:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 04 - 09:32 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 04 - 09:39 AM
CarolC 08 Jun 04 - 10:04 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 04 - 10:07 AM
CarolC 08 Jun 04 - 10:15 AM
Amos 08 Jun 04 - 10:27 AM
Amos 08 Jun 04 - 12:10 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 04 - 12:30 PM
Peace 08 Jun 04 - 12:48 PM
Chief Chaos 08 Jun 04 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 08 Jun 04 - 01:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 04 - 01:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 04 - 01:19 PM
Don Firth 08 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM
emjay 08 Jun 04 - 02:42 PM
George Papavgeris 08 Jun 04 - 04:06 PM
Peace 08 Jun 04 - 04:23 PM
M.Ted 08 Jun 04 - 04:24 PM
Bill D 08 Jun 04 - 04:29 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 04 - 08:32 PM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 09:16 PM
Mooh 08 Jun 04 - 10:04 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 04 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 08 Jun 04 - 10:38 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 08 Jun 04 - 10:39 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 04 - 10:48 PM
Bobert 08 Jun 04 - 10:49 PM
George Papavgeris 08 Jun 04 - 11:02 PM
Amos 08 Jun 04 - 11:02 PM
johnfitz.com 08 Jun 04 - 11:13 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 12:22 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 09 Jun 04 - 12:36 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 09 Jun 04 - 12:38 AM
johnfitz.com 09 Jun 04 - 12:42 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 01:59 AM
Metchosin 09 Jun 04 - 03:19 AM
Shanghaiceltic 09 Jun 04 - 04:04 AM
jack halyard 09 Jun 04 - 04:33 AM
jack halyard 09 Jun 04 - 05:29 AM
Wolfgang 09 Jun 04 - 06:12 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 04 - 06:21 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 04 - 07:22 AM
Greg F. 09 Jun 04 - 07:41 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 09:01 AM
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Subject: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:49 PM

Just read this in the Online Telegraph (UK Newspaper.

How will the US Govt ever be able to criticise a foreign regime that uses torture as part of its methods to extract confessions?

Ban on torture overruled in Pentagon
By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 08/06/2004)


A leaked Pentagon memo cast serious doubt yesterday on the Bush administration's insistence that its treatment of prisoners was bound by laws and treaties banning torture.

A secret document discloses that, on the eve of the Iraq war, political appointees overruled military lawyers to assert that President George W Bush was not bound by US and international law on torture.

   
The US armies 'Rules of interrogation' Click for detail
The memo, prepared for Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, went on to claim that, if national security was at stake, government agents who tortured or even killed prisoners on the president's authority were immune from prosecution.

A draft of the 100-page memo, leaked to the Wall Street Journal, conceded that several US and international laws banned torture.

But lawyers at the Pentagon and the justice department argued that all such treaties and laws were trumped by the president's "inherent constitutional authority to manage a military campaign" and protect the American people.

The leak appears to be part of an extraordinary civil war in the Pentagon between civilian officials and uniformed officers appalled by what they have described as moves by political appointees to shroud the war on terrorism in an "environment of legal ambiguity".

The trail of the memo begins at Guantanamo Bay and leads to Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, where pictures of abused and humiliated prisoners shocked the world.

A military official who helped to prepare the report told the Journal that the memo was requested by senior commanders at Guantanamo. They had complained in late 2002 that conventional interrogation methods were not extracting valuable information from terrorist suspects.

The official said: "People were trying like hell to ratchet up the pressure." Techniques then used at Guantanamo included drawing on a prisoner's body and placing women's underwear on prisoners' heads.

Those practices appeared in abuse photographs from Abu Ghraib, casting doubt on the Bush administration's insistence that Abu Ghraib misconduct was the work of a few low-level "bad apples".

An intelligence officer told the Journal that methods now used at Guantanamo included limiting prisoners' food, subjecting them to body searches, depriving them of sleep for up to 96 hours and shackling them in stress positions.

In public, William Haynes, the Pentagon's senior civilian lawyer, insists that all interrogations are conducted in a manner "consistent with" the international convention on torture.

Mr Haynes was in charge of the working group that drew up the memo, officials told the Journal, and political appointees claimed almost unlimited powers for the president to approve torture.

• America and Britain issued a fourth draft last night of a United Nations resolution granting Iraq sovereignty as they pressed for a vote at the Security Council as early as tonight. It ignores French demands for an explicit Iraqi veto over military operations but pledges "close co-ordination" between coalition forces and the new interim administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:36 AM

I wouldn't have thought that possible four years ago. It's very sad. Especially, since it is not just one more country using inhumane methods of information gathering. The bad example of the USA will have a signal function for others considering similar methods: What is right for the USA cannot be wrong here.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:58 AM

We can always hope that Bush gets captured by the terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: mooman
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:38 AM

If true, I find this utterly sickening... and we are supposed to be "civilised".

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:30 AM

The NY Times broke the story. It is in today's edition--the headline story online.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:32 AM

Here's what google news comes up with today, when you key in the word "torture"


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:39 AM

from the above link...

Torture Used to Suppress Dissent
Central Asian and Southern Caucasus Freedom of Expression Network (CASCFEN), Azerbaijan - 6 hours ago
HRW, Brussels, 7 Jun 2004 -- The Iranian government has intensified its campaign of torture, arbitrary arrests, and detentions against political critics, Human ...
Iran intensifies torture of political critics : Human Rights ... - IranMania News
Torture 'rife' in Iran - News24
HRW Says Tehran Uses Torture To Suppress Dissent - Radio Free Europe
Albawaba Middle East News - Washington Times - and more »

Rape, torture' rife in Sudan
News24, South Africa - 4 hours ago
New York - Amnesty International warned of widespread rape, torture and other abuses in western Sudan and called on the Sudanese government and the ...


Sudan: Incommunicado detentions, unfair trials, torture and ill- ...
Amnesty International - 3 hours ago
... humanely. Torture is widespread. "The failure of the justice system cannot be ignored. ... said. Torture is frequently and increasingly reported. ...
Incommunicado detentions, unfair trials, torture and ill- ... - Amnesty International USA
and more »

And where are the threads complaining about these? I hear a deafening silence on the part of those against the use of torture...


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:04 AM

How will the US Govt ever be able to criticise a foreign regime that uses torture as part of its methods to extract confessions?

They will do it selectively as they have always done. When it suits their purposes, they will use torture as one of their excuses for using aggression against other nations. And when it suites their purposes, they'll gloss over the use of torture by countries who are willing to do their torturing for them. 'Twas ever thus.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:07 AM

agreed, CarolC... Just like the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:15 AM

Not quite, beardedbruce. There are many countries that don't commit acts of military aggression against other nations.

And there are other countries who don't hide their use, or their support of the use of torture. I guess that's the direction in which the US is headed these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:27 AM

Overt invasion, and covert torture? Wow -- shades of old Germany, and Communist Russia. Makes a feller proud to be joining such a long tradition among nations. Huh? Wrong tradition? Whatever do you mean?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:10 PM

The Bush administration seems to be deliberately stepping into the role of High Barbarians Possunt, willing to wear the horns and appeal only to the brute law of power.

This is a hard time for this once lovely nation. A lot of ugliness -- whether earned or thrust upon us -- is fouling up our days.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:30 PM

And where are the threads complaining about these? I hear a deafening silence on the part of those against the use of torture...

Beardedbruce, then you're not reading the right old threads around here, listening to the right radio stations, or reading the right web or print papers. Just don't rely heavily on the mainstream US papers to print the indictments. And don't blame Mudcatters if George W. Bush has gone apeshit and is torturing the rest of the world. Sometimes we don't post a new thread for every single thing we're concerned about. This is, after all, a music site (though if you go look up protest songs you'll find a wealth of them to protest all sorts of warlike activity).

From the Digital Tradition, and too bad these days it doesn't take something as simple as people in a room signing papers:

LAST NIGHT I HAD THE STRANGEST DREAM
(Ed McCurdy)

Last night I had the strangest dream,
I never dreamed before.
I dreamed the world had all agreed
To put an end to war.
I dreamed I saw a mighty room,
The room was filled with men.
And the papers they were signing said
They'd never fight again.

And when the papers were all signed,
And a million copies made
They all joined hands and bowed their heads,
And grateful prayers were made.
And the people in the streets below,
They all danced round and round.
And guns and swords and uniforms
Were scattered on the ground.

Last night I had the strangest dream,
I never dreamed before.
I dreamed the world had all agreed
To put an end to war.
I dreamed I saw a mighty room,
The room was filled with men.
And the papers they were signing said
They'd never fight again.

When I awoke, twas but a dream,
and peace a dirty word
I tried to tell them of my dream,
but not a word they heard
And then I got me fighting mad,
and I knew just what I'd do
I'd fight nonviolently for peace,
until my dream came true.


"Last Night I Had a Happy Dream" was given a new
lease, when Ed McCurdy rewrote it as a peace song. The
last verse was added by Linda Hirschorn. BL



SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:48 PM

If you elect a government headed by a totalitarian group, ya get totalitarian policies. Bush and his cronies are shit. Remember that in November.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:53 PM

It seems to me that over the last few years we haven't had to complain as it has been sadly evident that our troops were tortured upon capture and during incarceration.

This is a sad day for those of us in the service who believed that because we held ourselves to a higher standard of behavior we expected that our CIC would as well. Regardless of the legal mumbo jumbo spewed out to defend that outrageous supposition that he is above that law, the laws were created to keep our GIs safe from torture. Although it hasn't always worked there was always the hope that it would. From now on it's going to be gloves off, bare knuckled, no rules, anything goes. For if he as President is above the law, then so are all the others.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:11 PM

"And where are the threads complaining about these? I hear a deafening silence on the part of those against the use of torture..."

i'm so sick of this type of moronic justification of american abuse and torture practices. since you hear so much silence on these other countries torture tactics, let me shout this at you...

THE REASON I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT TORTURE IN OTHER COUNTRIES IS BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A VOTE THERE. THEY DO NOT REPRESENT ME. ON THE OTHER HAND, IN AMERICA I AM A CITIZEN WITH VOTING RIGHTS AND AM APPALLED BY THESE CROOKS AND THEIR IMMORAL ACTIONS THAT ARE BEING DONE IN MY NAME AS A CITIZEN. I WANT THE TRUTH ABOUT THEIR DEGRADING ACTIONS TO COME OUT AND FOR THEM TO BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE. I WISH PEOPLE LIKE YOU WOULD DO YOUR DUTY AS CITIZENS TO UPHOLD THE LAWS OF OUR LAND AND QUIT TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO JUSTIFY CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR ON THEIR PARTS. FOR THE RECORD, I DISAPPROVE OF THESE TACTICS BEING USED BY OTHER COUNTRIES BUT FEEL THAT THE WAY TO DISCOURAGE THAT IS THRU DOING THINGS IN A MORAL MANNER AND NOT JOINING THEM IN THEIR HEINOUS ACTS.

loud enough for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:11 PM

None of those other countries have been able to bully the rest of the world into giving their citizens any kind of immunity from being tried for crimes like this. At least in principle, anybody involved in this kind of thing could be arrested and charged if they ever set foot in most countries. Remember the case of General Pinochet.

The USA is the only country which has demanded that kind of immunity -which means that the USA has laid upon itself the sole responsibility for pursuing and rooting out this kind of behaviour by its own citizens, no matter how high placed. That means that when a US administration is willing to authorise torture, including the murder of prisoners in its care, and to give immunity to its agents who carry out such acts, that is a particularly serious matter.

Or rather it has managed to suborn some corruptible lawyers into providing a legal rationalisation for this on the basis of a sickening perversion of the US Constitution. The Constitution which all Presidents are, I understand, sworn to uphold.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:19 PM

Guest from the NW, you said it exactly right, but as someone with dyslexia I have a hard time negotiating all of the caps. Here is what you said, in sentence case and big bold text. Just in case other dyslexics come along and need to read this loud and clear:


    "And where are the threads complaining about these? I hear a deafening silence on the part of those against the use of torture..."

    i'm so sick of this type of moronic justification of american abuse and torture practices. since you hear so much silence on these other countries torture tactics, let me shout this at you...

    The reason i'm not complaining about torture in other countries is because i don't have a vote there. They do not represent me. On the other hand, in america i am a citizen with voting rights and am appalled by these crooks and their immoral actions that are being done in my name as a citizen. I want the truth about their degrading actions to come out and for them to be removed from office. I wish people like you would do your duty as citizens to uphold the laws of our land and quit trying to find ways to justify criminal behavior on their parts. For the record, i disapprove of these tactics being used by other countries but feel that the way to discourage that is thru doing things in a moral manner and not joining them in their heinous acts.

    loud enough for you?

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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM

I'm sick and disgusted. What the hell happened to the country I was born into?

So much for Reagan's "shining city on the hill."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM

Reagan's "Shining City on a Hill" analogy was plagiarized from writings of the the 'Pilgrims' in the Mass. Bay Colony- one of the Mathers, perhaps.

It was bullshit in the seventeenth century, it was bullshit when spewed by Ronnie, and its overwhelming bullshit now.

Problem is, lots believe it. Fervently

Bruce- ya wanna wager, say, twenty bucks on the November election? I have a deep and abiding faith in the stupidity and invincible ignorance of the average U.S. voter.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: emjay
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:42 PM

There is another aspect to this matter of Americans torturing or abusing their prisoners. It doesn't matter so much whs at you call it, it doesn't change what was done, but equally as important as our seeing and recognizing the evil we are doing is to realize that allowing, even encouraging our troops to do these things to prisoners forever changes their characters, usually for the worse. There are those who do see the wrongness of what they are doing and will come to speak out against it. Too many others become abusive people because of that behavior after having been encouraged to commit the acts.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:06 PM

I don't know why, but I can't help thinking of that expression - "The Evil Empire". Is this a boomerang heading Bush's way? For how can anyone, ANY-f*cking-ONE, be above the law and call themselves a civilised person?


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:23 PM

Greg F, you are on. I will bet that Bush is beaten. That is, Bush will lose the election. The winner of the bet keeps his cash. The loser of the bet gives to a recognized charity of his choice. We trust each other to do that. If that is good by you, you're on.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:24 PM

Once torture is OK for "known" terrorists, it is soon acceptable for "suspected" terrorists, then for those who support suspected terrorists--easier each time--


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:29 PM

I heard a guest on NPR explaining all this "exemption" BS. What they have done is to create a complex of overlapping and contradictory laws, 'findings', 'rulings'...etc, the sum of which is that anyone who does commit or approve torture and gets called on it can find all sorts of legal defenses based on the old Nazi "I vas chust following orders" defense at Nuremburg and the even older "things are done in "wartime" which aren't permissible in local police depts."

It is all a case of CYAWP...covering your ass with paper...Everyone concerned gets a big, complex set of pre-arranged excuses....and I am ashamed to see my government going to such idiotic extremes for such dubious reasons. If all the Muslims in the world had invaded our shores and started killing people in the streets, I could at least understand, if not approve....but righteously creating bureaucratic defenses for one wrong to whitewash another....no, thank you....


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:32 PM

You're on, Bruce! Its a bet.

Is that twenty bucks Canadian, or twenty bucks real money? ;>)

I should say that nothing would give me more pleasure than sending that sawbuck to the American Friends Service Committee. 'Twould give me great pleasure to lose this one.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:16 PM

And all thanks to Reagan's little heir apparent!


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:04 PM

It amazes me that anyone should be surprised by any of this. The most gung-ho, trigger happy, gun infatuated culture elects (sort of) its poster boy and his manipulating cronies and what do you expect, the second coming? An unsupervised military which nurtures rabid hatred and the "if they're not for us, they're against us" mentality among it's uninformed troops, gets soldiers who torture. Condoned or not, that torture was allowed to happen.

Any wonder the stereotypical image of Americans in some parts of the world is so negative? Shame, ain't it!

Peace (I hope), Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:14 PM

war zone logic:

people who shoot at me --------------enemies

people who put bombs to blow me up---enemies

People who burn my comrade's bodies, and hange them from bridges and lampposts----------------------------ememies

people who supply or hid my enemies--enemies



WHat part of this do you not understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:38 PM

I understand that torturing one's enemies is wrong. (Torturing anyone else is too, for you hairsplitters.)

I understand it is necessary to be better than Saddam & his like; and I understand that's not enough; I understand it's necessary to be different.

To put it more plainly, If we become a tyrannical government we have been conquered by tyranny.

What part of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill or Rights don't you understand?

Or to put it more simply, is there anything about American principles and ideals that you do understand?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:39 PM

"Different" from Saddam, that is.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:48 PM

I have been told over the last 40+ years that whenever the constitution allowed for something that m ight be dangerous, it was ok to change it. I never believed that, but I kept being told that by all the well-meaning liberals. Now, you want me to believe it is sacred??? Make up your mind: Some of us have always felt the Constitution should be treated as a whole, but at every turn rights were restricted by liberals "for our own good"


Tourture is bad- we are trying to determine the guilty parties, and punish them. Has ANY muslim cleric issued a fatwah against any of the atrocities against the US forces or contractors???


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:49 PM

Like it has been said, "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist"...

What the US needs is another USSR to keep it half way honest. It sure doesn't wear this "Single Super Power" badge too well.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:02 PM

Agree Bobert - the emperor is naked and nobody is telling him to go get dressed. Or he's not listening.

This is a watershed, not for a single politician or his party, not even for the political system of the US, but for international law and how it will (not) be respected in the future; and for the image of a once great country and its denizens in the eyes of the world.

We are in the middle of WWIII, I think - the "war on terror" is certainly global. But ugly though it is, we have seen its face already. Yet even this will be as nothing if one day the world turns against the most powerful nation on earth to rid itself of a tyranny it (the world) feels imposed on it. I hope that day never comes, but I worry that it might.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:02 PM

BB:

I sense you are almost articulating something quite true, but it is still not clear. I don't know what you mean by "liberals" who have restricted rights. Which rights? And as for people telling you it was okay to change the Constitution, I suggest you make up your own mind, keeping the purposes and ideals of the document in mind.

I would add that under the right circumstances, knee deep in a blood-hot war, I might torture some people under particular circumstances. But what was being made into a scandal was something very different -- it was rampant sadism. There is a world of difference. The prisoners being abused and ridiculed at Abu Ghraib were not witholding critical information, as far as I have heard. Nor were they critical to a life-or-death issue (except their own). I think these are significant distinctions.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:13 PM

Somebody e-mailed me today and asked why I had not posted for several months. I think this thread is why. It is deeply hateful, self satisfying and righteous. I heard our leaders apologize--almost profusely, for the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners. If it were widespread and systematic I know we would have heard more. I have six children. I live fearful for their future. I lived for two years in a communist country. Much of my liberalism was squeezed out of me. I am not proud of it; at times it is downright embarrassing, not so much because I feel I am on the wrong side of an issue, but by taking a contrary stand other people leap with their assumptions--they leap with joy at the possibilty of a public forum to be "right" again. I've placed my heart and soul in the folk community for over 25 years. It's a good place, especially when it laughs at itself. I've never learned a thing from an angry man. I really haven't. I can't hear them.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:22 AM

You've heard apologies out of one side of their mouths, Johnfitz, and out of the other side we are seeing that they dictated all of the exceptions to the rules so that no American soldier will be harshly punished for those acts, and so that many of those acts may continue because of the classification of the prisoner.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:36 AM

Sorry I lost my temper. Your post looked like a defense of torture to me, and that really pushes my buttons.

And I just about lost it again when I read your next post; with all respect, my name isn't 'You Liberals,' and forty years ago I would have told you the same thing as I did last post. But if I had changed my mind it might be because I learned something in that forty years. I hope I've learned something since 1960.

I have a Croatian friend who came here while the Communists were still in power. He told me that his people looked up to the USA as a symbol of freedom, that even though they might not get to America or ever have that freedom in Yugoslavia, it was a comfort to know that somewhere in the world people were free of secret police, of having neighbors who were informers, of being imprisoned without charges -- all those things tyrannical governments are so fond of.

We are losing that reputation, and it is costing us, and I don't like it.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:38 AM

I was addressing bb there, of course.

c


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:42 AM

What they can, and can't do was addressed publicly today. They have, in essence, set the standard for acceptable torture. Not exactly a noble exercise, but at least as Americans we have a public statement we can hold them to, or at least try to. I feel like you and I are off on the wrong foot. I agree with you that apologies are worded vaguely and that the torture was deplorable, counter-productive and idiotic; that is why I remain convinced that the stuff they did at Abu Graib (sp?) is more the work of localized yahoos, tolerated by an inept general.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:59 AM

The last paragraph in a Washington Post editorial pasted to another thread:

Perhaps the president's lawyers have no interest in the global impact of their policies -- but they should be concerned about the treatment of American servicemen and civilians in foreign countries. Before the Bush administration took office, the Army's interrogation procedures -- which were unclassified -- established this simple and sensible test: No technique should be used that, if used by an enemy on an American, would be regarded as a violation of U.S. or international law. Now, imagine that a hostile government were to force an American to take drugs or endure severe mental stress that fell just short of producing irreversible damage; or pain a little milder than that of "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." What if the foreign interrogator of an American "knows that severe pain will result from his actions" but proceeds because causing such pain is not his main objective? What if a foreign leader were to decide that the torture of an American was needed to protect his country's security? Would Americans regard that as legal, or morally acceptable? According to the Bush administration, they should.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 03:19 AM

I've read this thread too and I see nothing particularly hateful or self satisfying.

What I do see are some fine Americans outraged, remorseful and angry that the current US administration appears to believe that it is above the laws of the land and and also appears to be searching for legal loopholes so that it can extricate itself from inconvenient international conventions to which it's a signatory.   

That some are angry is understandable to me. America has always viewed its form of government as the epitomy of the democratic ideal and viewed itself as a torch bearer in the field of human rights and at times with a good deal of justification.

It is easy to abide by civilized rules when things are going well, it's when the chips are down that it becomes difficult not to stoop to the lowest common denominator. However, it is during tough times when those very ideals are most needed as a beacon, or else, what the hell is the point?

The folk community is rife with angry men and women and has been forever so. The protest song is an intregal part of the folk process of those angry men and women, particularly in North America and sometimes, when there is a message in the music, sorry, but it just ain't funny.

Some angry folks

Pete Seeger

Bruce Cockburn

Bob Dylan

And some young and old angry folks

Smith/Seeger/DJ Spooky


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:04 AM

One of the reasons I despaired when I saw the article in the Telegraph is that the US Govt (Far more than the UK one) has had a pretty good record on getting people released from detention in China. People can be detained in China for many reasons other than criminal acts. Once in detention there have been clear cases of abuse by the authorities.

I can only see this latest news being used against the well intentioned US negotiators who try to portray the US as having a higher regards for political and human rights.

Indidentally the brave doctor who blew the lid off the SARS problem last year and then wrote openly to the Chinese Government regarding a more open approach has not been seen since the begining of this month. Just prior to the Tiananmen anniversary.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: jack halyard
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:33 AM

I am angry, but I'm hardly surprised. Folks, America- or atleast its government, refused to ratify a number of international conventions icluding a meaningful international court. It is precisely such a court that would have been the appropriate forum for the impartial trial of Saddam Hussein, and it is now appropriate for an impartial trail of George Bush.
I remember Arlo Guthrie singing in the early seventies

"If you didn't know about that one, then what else don't you know."

Our own prime miniscule, John Howard, is appealing to the same ignorance, and with his toadying to the international policeman has given many Australians the same sense of deep shame. I feel deeply for ordinary Americans. The sooner you get big money out of your politics and get a broader base of presidential possibilities than your aristocracy of business, the better for both America and the rest of thye world.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: jack halyard
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 05:29 AM

I feel I should follow up. The string of events that led to the Iraq invasion seemed merciless and relentless. It seemed that "America" was a leviathan bulldozing the world along its chosen course, regardless of other opinions.
I want American mudcatters to know that the quality of discussion and introspection on this forum has restored my hope.
As one new to the electronic pipeline, it's inspiring to hear other voices from the United States than the usual run of leaders and commentators thrust at us by the mass media. Your good health all!
                                        Jack Halyard.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:12 AM

Your shouting, my friend, only reinforces our views. If you have to shout it then there's more than likely not a lot ot meat to your views...
(Bobert, a few hours ago, but not in this thread, to Beardedbruce when BB used caps for a minor part of his post)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:21 AM

well, I guess i will only use lower case. that will make all my arguments nice and meaty. sorry if i had something to emphasize.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 07:22 AM

and did i hear the queen of spades in there? " first the sentence, then the trial."


SRS:

"Beardedbruce, then you're not reading the right old threads around here,"

please see my 'sudan' thread. i looked back to the begining of mudcat. don't see how i can find any older than that. and damn few of you have stepped up to answer my question.


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 07:41 AM

No "watershed" at all- just 'deja vu all over again'-


Here's a kick in the ass, boys, here's a kick in the ass.
We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock
We've done it before, so why all the shock?
We're the biggest and toughest kids on the block!
And we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world.


      Phil Ochs(1965?)


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Subject: RE: BS: So carry on then with the abuse....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 09:01 AM

Beardedbruce, that's because you don't bring a lot of substance, just fingerpointing, to your own discussion.


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