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BS: Reagan Rapture!

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Deckman 07 Jun 04 - 09:08 PM
Peace 07 Jun 04 - 09:15 PM
dianavan 07 Jun 04 - 09:58 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 07 Jun 04 - 10:25 PM
Bill D 07 Jun 04 - 10:47 PM
Joe Offer 07 Jun 04 - 10:50 PM
Deckman 08 Jun 04 - 01:17 AM
Ellenpoly 08 Jun 04 - 03:56 AM
Teribus 08 Jun 04 - 04:11 AM
Deckman 08 Jun 04 - 07:21 AM
kendall 08 Jun 04 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 08:45 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Terri Byerly 08 Jun 04 - 09:16 AM
Teribus 08 Jun 04 - 09:20 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 04 - 09:27 AM
Don Firth 08 Jun 04 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Larry K 08 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM
DougR 08 Jun 04 - 02:06 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 04 - 02:19 PM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 02:20 PM
Don Firth 08 Jun 04 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 08 Jun 04 - 04:06 PM
beadie 08 Jun 04 - 04:08 PM
Bill D 08 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 08 Jun 04 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Terri Byerly 08 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM
Burke 08 Jun 04 - 06:15 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 08 Jun 04 - 06:44 PM
Bobert 08 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM
kendall 08 Jun 04 - 07:27 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 08 Jun 04 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,saulgoldie 08 Jun 04 - 08:05 PM
Deckman 08 Jun 04 - 08:43 PM
MAG 09 Jun 04 - 10:51 AM
Amos 09 Jun 04 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 09 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM
GUEST, curious of Richmond 09 Jun 04 - 11:27 AM
Ebbie 09 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM
Amos 09 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 04 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 04 - 01:18 PM
beadie 09 Jun 04 - 02:02 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 02:14 PM
Ebbie 09 Jun 04 - 02:19 PM
Deckman 09 Jun 04 - 02:24 PM
beadie 09 Jun 04 - 02:43 PM
Ebbie 09 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM
Teresa 09 Jun 04 - 02:53 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 03:21 PM
beadie 09 Jun 04 - 04:07 PM
Strollin' Johnny 09 Jun 04 - 04:10 PM
Deckman 09 Jun 04 - 04:13 PM
GUEST, Pope Pious X 09 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 09 Jun 04 - 05:04 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 04 - 06:53 PM
Don Firth 09 Jun 04 - 06:56 PM
saulgoldie 10 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Jun 04 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Larry K 10 Jun 04 - 01:44 PM
Amos 10 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM
Nerd 10 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 04 - 02:08 PM
Amos 10 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 04 - 03:41 PM
Deckman 10 Jun 04 - 05:41 PM
Bill D 10 Jun 04 - 06:00 PM
Greg F. 10 Jun 04 - 06:48 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 04 - 07:20 PM
Big Mick 10 Jun 04 - 07:32 PM
Bobert 10 Jun 04 - 07:58 PM
dianavan 10 Jun 04 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 10 Jun 04 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 10 Jun 04 - 08:17 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 04 - 08:17 PM
beadie 10 Jun 04 - 08:24 PM
Deckman 10 Jun 04 - 08:56 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 04 - 09:07 PM
Amos 10 Jun 04 - 09:11 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 04 - 09:29 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Jun 04 - 11:34 PM
Deckman 11 Jun 04 - 12:19 AM
beadie 11 Jun 04 - 10:48 AM
Ron Davies 12 Jun 04 - 11:29 AM
GUEST 12 Jul 04 - 11:01 AM
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Subject: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:08 PM

Just now at the supper table, I think I invented a new phrase: "Reagan Rapture." At least I don't remember hearing it any where else.

I explained to "Bride Judy" that us folks in America are so hungry to find a president to look up to, to admire, that we'll even try to reserect, or claim, admirable qualities that are quite questionable.

Whatcha think? Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:15 PM

Bob, it's certainly alliterative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:58 PM

Reagan rapture revulsion! How about hero hysteria or leader longing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:25 PM

This is revisionist history and spin doctoring worse than I've ever seen it perpetrated. The man, Reagan, with his nice guy personna, single-handedly began the destruction of most that Roosevelt did to help the lower classes in this country. (And don't be fooled---this nation IS a class society---and it always has been that. By destroying the wimpy and white collar Air Traffic Controler's Union's strike, they began the demolition of labor unions in the U.S. --- It was the beginning of a process that has been refined, tweaked and rammed through the heart of this nation by Bush and Rumsfeld -- using National Security--a real problem--as the reason.

I do believe, with all due respect, that in the rotunda and on Friday, they ought to lay the man out face down -------- so the media and everyone can kiss him goodbye.

Art Thieme

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:47 PM

LOL!! Why, Art...you ARE a creative soul!


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:50 PM

Can we bring back Harry Truman somehow?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:17 AM

WHAT!!!! Is Harry Truman missing too? Sheeeuh! Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 03:56 AM

I think you're on to something, Deckman. Even over here in the UK, they keep referring to this "well-loved President" and I have to shake myself to remember that they're talking about Reagan.

We are so deficient in heros. The celebrity mania of today shows how starved we are to want to look up to someone, and to that end, people are willing to even create false memories so we can pretend that we knew someone of greatness in our lifetime.

Sad, and as far as Ronald goes, totally misrepresented in this fashion.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:11 AM

Come, on Art, don't be so selective in your remembrance of the man's tenure in office.

At the start of his Presidency the US was thought by many to be heading for a major recession, that some thought would increase in magnitude to become a second depression - he turned that round.

More than any other world leader he did more to end the "Cold War" and set in train major disarmament.

Whether you believe polls or not, on leaving office after completing his second term, he was the most popular President in the history of the US - 61% approval - If he could have stood for a third term, he would have walked it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:21 AM

And yet another wonderful memory: he closed all the mental hospitals in the states and turned the mentally ill out on the streets. Many are still wondering around without medicine or treatment. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:38 AM

Clinton could have been elected to another term too.

Here again, you people who give Raygun credit for killing communism and ending the cold war, just how did he do that? And, how does that compare with what Lec Walesa, the Pope, Mr. Gorbechev and American TV did to end that silly system? Communism began to die the day it was born, and it happened on Reagan's watch. He was probably asleep, but he still gets the credit. Incredible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:45 AM

Teribus, you are wrong again as usual.

Reagan was not the most popular president in US history. Just as one example of a comparison between him and another very popular president, he and Clinton were equally popular in the polls. But as others have noted elsewhere, popularity doesn't equal competence, much less greatness.

There was a serious recession on his watch in 1982, Reagan just went for an entire year without acknowledging it.

His administration was one of the most corrupt in history in terms of indictments and convictions, pardons, immunity given to the guilty for testimony (and I haven't even gotten to Iran-Contra yet).

His administration just happened to be the beneficiary of being in power at the time Gorbachev seized control of Russia and the Berlin wall came down. The Reagan administration didn't do anything differently than previous administrations had vis a vis the Russians, they just took ALL credit for winning the Cold War.

That isn't what the revisionists are saying this week, of course, but that is the reality. But Reagan's legacy will be that he actually figured out how to be a shifty salesman for the rich using television as his preferred medium for propaganda. Buying advertising goes around press scrutiny. If you do a good job with the advertising, especially telling people what they want to hear, they will buy anything.

That is the Reagan legacy. The robbed and pillaged the nation, and made people feel good about what they were doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:49 AM

Oh and about that recession that Teribus claims never happened, here is an excerpt from the PBS website The American Experience, on the Reagan recession:

"The United States was experiencing its worst recession since the Depression, with conditions frighteningly reminiscent of those 50 years earlier. By November 1982, unemployment reached, nine million, the highest rate since the Depression; 17,000 businesses failed, the second highest number since 1933; farmers lost their land; and many sick, elderly, and poor became homeless.

The country lived through the recession for a full year before Reagan finally admitted publicly that the economy was in trouble. His budget cuts, which hurt the poor, and his tax cuts, which favored the rich, combined with the hardships of a recession, spawned the belief that Reagan was insensitive to his people's needs. (Although it was a 25% across-the-board tax cut, those people in the higher income brackets benefited the most.)

As economic hardship hit American homes, Reagan's approval rating hit rock bottom. In January 1983, it was estimated at a dismal 35 percent. Having failed in his promise to deliver economic prosperity, Reagan's reelection in 1984 seemed unlikely."


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Terri Byerly
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:16 AM

My dearest Art,

As you said, "it's hard to be a people pleaser sometimes", yes, it is difficult if not impossible to please all of the people all of the time, and this goes for a presidential administration also. We are being forced to remember all the "noble" things Reagan did, and that's swell and all, but as you pointed out, there was more to the "Reagan Years" than just tea with Gorbachev, the feeble attempt at slowing down the arms race with the Nuclear Forces Treaty, after which he turns around and initiates SDI (star wars) at a cost of a trillion bucks, the gift of arms in trade for hostages (yes, I know they say "sold arms"), and shoot oneself in the foot deals with Ollie North.

My point is, yes the man did good, and he screwed up too. So have I and so have you. I respect the good and dirty mouth the bad. It's the nature of the public beast to do so. Does the deserve the hype? Maybe not. But maybe to a degree. Matter of personal opinion for everyone I suppose. I personally think this particular former Commander in Chief does deserve a certain amount of respect BUT I will take off my rose colored glasses (which I hate to do), and think on all he did, right and wrong.

I just think it's wise to, when remembering the bad to remember the good. And when we remember the good, remember to remember the bad.

Terri


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:20 AM

Ah, but Guest, in 1984 he was re-elected. How and why did that come about? During his two terms in office Reagan's administration did create employment, something like 16 million jobs, he reduced inflation to isignificance, and managed to turn the economy round.

Please do not think that a recession happens overnight, it is a gradual process, caused by a number of contributary factors. If you believe otherwise you are being very naive.

So, according to Kendall, it was Lec Walesa, the Pope, Mr. Gorbachev and American TV that brought about the end of Communism, the collapse of Soviet Russia and the end of the "Cold War"? Kendall you should read and discover where "Solidarity" got the funds to carry out its campaign, oh, yes they came through the Vatican, but that is not where those funds originated, not by a long shot. Reagan was fortunate in the choice of the Kremlin when Gorbachev was elected and suceeded Andropov - Gorbachev did not seize power in Russia or anywhere else - he was however a realist and extremely pragmatic. American TV, no doubt viewed by millions in Soviet Russia achieved what exactly in the downfall of communist Russia, Kendall?

Between the end of the Second World War and the 1980's the fact that the US Navy operated an extremely capable strike carrier fleet damn near brankrupted Soviet Russia five times in their attempts to find a way of countering that means of world force projection. They never did manage to do that. Then along came the Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars), personally I believe that was the biggest hoax ever perpetrated, but Communist Soviet Russia swallowed it and realised that they just could not compete any longer. More steps were taken with regard to nuclear disarmament under the Reagan administration than any other. An on-going process that was only halted with India and Pakistan acquiring nuclear weapons capabilities within months of one another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:27 AM

GUEST,Terri Byerly:

I don't think you realize that you are not allowed to think that way here.


Teribus:

"Then along came the Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars), personally I believe that was the biggest hoax ever perpetrated,"

Hardly. As a research program, it was very usefull, and more pure science was funded under it's auspices than you would believe. I know- I worked on a number of those programs. LACE, RME, Clementine, MSTI-3. For all that some may wish otherwise, the best way to get funding is to show how it will help the nation's defense. Look at most of the medical advances of the last century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:20 PM

The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones.
Thus says Antony of Julius Caesar. But, true to form, in the case of the "Teflon President," this seems to work in reverse

Granted, when a former president of the United States passes away, one should mark the occasion and perhaps remember his deeds and accomplishments, if any. One tries not to speak ill of the dead; however, it does little for the cause of truth to try, by rewriting history, to turn a former president, or any person for that matter, into some kind of god.

For the past few days, practically every time I turn on the radio or television, it's been wall-to-wall Ronald Reagan. Eulogies, paeans, and reminiscences pour forth incessantly, overshadowing all other news. All day long yesterday, even on NPR, that supposed bastion of the liberalism, and last night on The News Hour with Jim Lehrer on PBS, that well known purveyor of left-wing propaganda, there was talk of naught else. God knows, after hearing what I was hearing on the supposed "liberal media," I didn't have the stomach to see what they might be saying on Fox News! One would think that the man had been seen regularly walking on water. During the past few days, listening to "the news" has been like swimming in syrup.

I agree with Art Thieme's indictment above. In addition, I would really like someone to explain to me exactly how Reagan, seemingly single handed to hear people speak of it, defeated Communism. The way it seems to be presented, when Reagan intoned "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" it was as if he raised his rod, cried "Open Sesame!" the wall crumbled before the thunder of his voice, and Communism vanished in the wind. Without going into Iran-Contra and a multitude of other things, one should point out that it is true that Reagan cut taxes. On the rich. But he also raised taxes. On the poor. But he didn't call it "taxes" he called it "revenue enhancement." And once again, the Teflon President got away with it!.

I could go on and on, but I'm feeling a bit "sweeted out," as if I've been force-fed several pounds of cheap candy.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM

You liberals are hilarious.    You give me the best arguments whenever I have debates with clear thinking people.    Like Tom Paxton said "sometimes you don't have to saturize a person, you just quote him directly"   The rhetoric is so far out there, it is the best ammunition I could ever have.   

Bill Clinton never won 50% of the vote.    Reagan captured 49 of 50 states.   Thats an ass whippin.    There are 10 hour waits to visit his coffin to pay last respect.   Historians vote him one of the best 10 presidents in history.   The public voted him the greated president in history (per time magazine)

In quotes this week, the current president of Nicaragua praised him for bringing democracy to his country which has continued to vote pro USA democracy ever since.    The president of St. Lucia praised Reagan for defeating communism in the Carribean and preserving democracy there.   Of course, people in this forum know more about those countries than their leaders do.

The argument that defeating Communism was just a coincidence is ignorant and not based on any fact other than wishful thinking and revisionist history.    Why was the USSR so agressive in the late 70's when Carter was president and destroyed only a few years later.   Maybe the incrase in military budget by Reagan.   Maybe Star Wars.   Maybe the refusal to sign the nuclear arms treaty which stunned Gorbachef (and the world) Maybe the constand voice calling communism the evil empire.   Maybe they were afraid of Reagan. (Iran sure was relseaing the hostages on the night of his inaguration)   Maybe all of those.    To say it was coincidence is like saying folk musis owes nothing to Pete Seeger because it was inevitable it would happen anyway.   

To say the economy was just a coincidence is just as foolish.   Under Carter there was huge unemployment, 17% interest rates, high inflation, and gas lines.   The 1980's was labeled the "decade of greed"   You couldn't call it that unless the economy was successfull.   And it was successfull FOR ALL PEOPLE.   Look it up.   All segment of society benefitted.   The lowest fifth of people benefitted as much as the highest fifst.   I know that most of you revisiionists won't acknowledge that, but as Yogi said "you could look it up"

To all my liberal friends- I feel your pain this week in all the praise of Ronald Reagan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:06 PM

Wow, Larry K., you're a breath of fresh air!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:19 PM

Smells more like a beer fart to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:20 PM

People believe what they want to believe, and in politics, that is rarely the facts.

From the US Office of the Federal Register (they certify the election results):

1976 - Carter 50.0%, Ford 48.0%.

1980 - Reagan 50.9%, Carter 41.1%, John Anderson 6.6%.

1984 - Reagan 58.8%, Mondale 40.5%.

1988 - Bush 53.4%, Dukakis 45.6%.

1992 - Clinton 42.93%, Bush 37.38%, Perot 18.87%.

1996 - Clinton 49.24%, Dole 40.71%, Perot 8.4%.

2000 - Bush 47.87%, Gore 48.38%, Nader 2.74%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:00 PM

I did a little checking:

Ronald Reagan left us a national debt of about $3.5 trillion or $3,500 billion.

The national debt when Ronald Reagan took office was about $1 trillion. That included all the debt run up during the Revolutionary war, the Spanish-American war, the Civil war, World War I, World War II, the Korean war, and the Vietnam war. In other words it took the United States from 1776 until 1980 or more than 200 years to accumulate a national debt of $1 trillion.

It took Reaganomics only eight years to increase the national debt from $1 trillion to about $3.5 trillion!

[While cutting social programs, incidentally. Any amount that social programs begun in the 1930s by FDR and subsequent years (e.g., LBJ's "War on Poverty") added to this deficit was minuscule, and complaining bitterly about "entitlements" the way Reagan and other conservatives did (and do) is like a person running up hundreds of thousands of dollars of credit card debt and then complaining that being asked to put an occasional dollar in the poor box is the cause of their financial troubles]

Given the spending habits established by the legacy of Ronald Reagan and resumed (after Clinton balanced the budget) by his disciple, George W. Bush, the national debt is now about $5.5 trillion!

The interest costs alone on the national debt now run about $250 million a year! When Ronald Reagan took office, they were about $53 million a year.

A true American hero.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:06 PM

Terri---I just e-mailed you again. Sorry if I'm too strident.

I'm not into writing all that out here in the thread.---But...

Basically I said that I thought the USSR threw out the best of equalizing and humane factors of socialism with the washwater that was totalitarianism and communism. The latter was the real enemy. Then the right in the USA took credit for it all and declared the war was over, that Reagan won it, socialism is now discredited and now it was OK to run with the cash like Enron and Arthur Andersen right over the backs of the poor and universal health care and Social Security---all the while thumbing their capitalistic corporate noses and giving 'em the Bronx cheer.

Terri, I think that's sort of what I said. R.R. started it and G.B. and cohorts are running with the ball.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:08 PM

From 1981 through 1988, the clothes had no emperor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM

Larry K---" Historians vote him one of the best 10 presidents in history..."

right, and "Doctors recommend" product "X"....WHICH historians?

You can find today, in many countries, people still praising Adolph Hitler...I suppose there are those who admired Genghis Khan for bringing "multi-culturalism" to the far East!

Ronald Reagan was a MOVIE actor, who had honed the skills of being convincing and was evidently a very charming guy in person. He also had VERY narrow, conservative viewpoints which he thought he could just IMPOSE on the rest of us....he also showed, possibly due to his life portraying fiction, a lack of comprehension of what his ideas meant in reality! There were a group of people who viewed Reagan as the perfect 'front man' for a reactionary agenda, just as some now use G. Bush for the same reason.

I only wish I could live long enough to laugh at you when **"Historians"** finally sort out all the damage done under Ronnie's reign, and he takes his place in history alongside Warren G. Harding, Richard Nixon and Andrew Johnson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 05:45 PM

Adding my humble opinion to this thread--with which I agree with most postings---except for Larry K, etc;

All this hoopla only proves one thing to me---an actor with a personality can make you forget what corrupt and incompetent things really transpired. Better analogy is the magician who has you fooled all the way.

Air Traffic Controllers of the era must be totally bereaved, those who lost jobs in the Reagan depression, and those who are still repaying the debts incurred by that administration are also, I am sure, greatly bereaved at this loss.

What I do not understand is this panapoly of events---JFK was a sitting pres. and was assasinated so this honor was to be expected.   FDR was a sitting war-time pres., and Lincoln also and assasinated sitting Pres. Reagan has been long gone from the scene and, to me, this a totally out of place and a great inconvenience to the masses. Much as the media spins it the only advantage is that many people will be getting a day off with pay---at the government's expense. Another great legacy---more debt.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Terri Byerly
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM

Gosh, all I said (okay, all I meant) is I try to look at the positive results and negative results of any administration. Really, that's all.

(I keep forgetting to sign in, so I'm in as "GUEST Terri Byerly")


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Burke
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:15 PM

What do you remember about the funerals of Truman, Eisenhower or Johnson? I remember Truman's being on TV, but little else. I recall Nixon sounding lots better in his eulogies than I remembered as well.

At least the NYSE has a tradition of closing:
On April 27, 1994, the exchange closed for Nixon's funeral. Similarly, the NYSE closed on Dec. 28, 1972 for the funeral of former President Harry Truman and less than a month later on Jan. 25, 1973 for the funeral of former President Lyndon Johnson. The exchange was closed on March 31, 1969 for the funeral of former President Dwight D. Eisenhower.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:44 PM

Sounds like the alliteration of this thread title should be Reagan Redux. Again we pay homage and forget what was behind the smoke and mirrors---is it possible there is another actor coming down the old pike from Calif.?   


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM

Guatamala and Salavador, anyone???

Dead squads???

Liberals, trade unionists, catholic nuns and just about anyone rounded up for public executuions...

That's what I rememeber most about Reagan.

And illegal wars (Iran/Contra).

And his voodoo economics, his "just say charge it" way of running the show, the cleanup afterwards...

I don't get it???

Like who was this other Ronald Reagan guy that folks now remember so fondly???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:27 PM

"I have never killed a man, but I have read a number of obituaries with great relish." (Irving S. Cobb)


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:33 PM

Ah---now that is humor I can truly appreciate.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:05 PM

Quick, someone help me with a campaign to reject the Reagan currency! Should we just tell anyone who hands it to us that we don't consider it "real" currency and to give us something else?

I know we are supposed to say only positive things about the recently departed, but I must echo the thoughts of some of the others that this is just an over-the-top undeserved love-fest.

Others have well-documented some of his misdeeds, evil deeds, and just plain massive short-comings, and said them better than I could. I will not relist them. I will, however recount some very personal experiences.

I was a bicycle courier during most of his tenure, and I watched as the count of homeless on the streets steadily increased as a direct result of his "economic" policies and his closing of the mental hospitals. On the day of his second innaugural, it was one of the coldest days on record, ever, in DC. I was on call, but I only had a few runs that day. I had on all of my bestest warmest clothing against the weather and I spent all my time time in the warm office between the few runs I had that day. I wouldn't wish that day on anyone.

On that day, there were several deaths among homeless people. At this time when so many are recounting what a wonderful president and human being he was and insisting that the rest of us so honor him, I remember that day as if it were yesterday. None of his defenders has yet indicated what a grand and glorious thing it was that so many mentally ill or down-on-their-luck were thrust out onto the streets to die of exposure. I implore them to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:43 PM

Thank you "saulgoldie" ... for a while there, I thought I was the ONLY one that remembered that reagan put the mentally ill out into the streets. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: MAG
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 10:51 AM

Nah, I mentioned it on the other thread -- the song one.

I used to have the postcard of Ray Gun with six guns blazing on my staff bulletin board at work on North Avenue in Chicago. When the board in its infinite wisdom closed my little branch, my staff fought over who got to keep that post card.

Yeah, that library was 4 blocks from Cabrini-Green. I remember when my shelver quit to go into the army. Kids lined u-p around the block to apply for her part-time minimum wage job. Things were just peachy keen then. We're headed back to the pre-New Deal days when people starved to death.

I bit my tongue at the Reagan fans who fail to grasp that dennnnnnnnial is not the ol' river in Egypt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 10:58 AM

From 1981 through 1988, the clothes had no emperor.

Beadie,

That was the funniest line I have seen all week!! Bravo!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

The real trouble with unions was that they turned good Democrats into Republicans as soon as they had some money and a few investments. They forgot real quick why their fathers had needed a union in the first place. Then they never even noticed the huge role absolutely dumb fecking luck had played in their rise to glory. Worse yet, they took personal credit for the billions they were able to steal and run away with after being slapped on the wrist by the judicial/penile-----er, penal system. All of that while the guy that stole 3 loaves of bread and got caught 3 times goes to prison for life.----What a travesty is the legacy of this man in our loud and dumbed down in-yo-face Married-With-Children/reality TV America.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST, curious of Richmond
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 11:27 AM

Who did Ronnie oust as the 'historians' greatest prez?'

Will they turf him in time?

Is the 10-hour wait to see his coffin longer than the one that lines up for Lennin's tomb?

Will he get more pilgrims per year than Karl Marx?

What is the capital of Bolivia?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM

I'm not surprised at the adulation and the outpouring of grief, but I am shocked at its witlessness. I do believe that a good many of those people are the same ones who would cry over "True Romances" (Isn't that the name of the old smarmy magazine that purportedly brought us 'real life stories' of love and tragedy?)

OK, so that explains the long lines waiting to view Reagan's coffin (!!) but what about the people who espouse the view that he was a great president? I suspect that, by and large, they are the 'John Wayne' fans who long for a simpler age when black and white were clearly defined, pardner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM

Or they are on the payroll (knowingly or not) of the Bush Fox machinery of PR war.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:16 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:18 PM

What do you remember about the funerals of Truman, Eisenhower or Johnson? I remember Truman's being on TV, but little else. I recall Nixon sounding lots better in his eulogies than I remembered as well.

Interesting you should ask that. Of Nixon's funeral, I remember seeing part of it on TV. When the 21 (or whatever number) cannon salute was fired off, I remember hearing dozens of car alarms suddenly go off in a nearby parking lot in response. Seemed kind of perfect to me somehow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:02 PM

The Gallup organization just released a compilation of approval ratings for presidents back to Truman. These are averages of the Gallup data collected on each president during the course of his term rather than a retrospective query of "who was most popular?"

          Approval rating

Truman         45%
Eisenhower    65%
Kennedy       70%
Johnson       55%
Nixon          49%
Ford          47%
Carter         45%
Reagan         53%
Bush I         61%
Clinton       55%

This is taken directly from info on the Gallup website.

Clinton and Johnson more approved than Reagan. Interesting, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:14 PM

I don't have my glasses on, but it looks like Reagan and Clinton are tied at 55% each.

These averages don't say much, however. But then polls don't say a lot to begin with. These solitary numbers can't reflect highs and lows and incident related spikes up or down. A flow chart of ratings might be interesting, and would probably look like the teeth in a carpenter's saw.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:19 PM

Put your glasses on, Stilly. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:24 PM

No, leave your glasses off Maggie, you look better!! Besides, it's easier to think that way (hee hee) Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:43 PM

Stilly River Sage:

Hush! Don't disparage polls anywhere that Mr. Rove might hear you.

Polls are, indeed, useful for limited purposes. I am, however, more inclined to place whatever credence they deserve in an independent organization's product (like Gallup) than in a poll done by or at the behest of a political party or interest group. Gallup has been asking essentially the same questions about every sitting president at least as far back as those reported above. And, looking at the Gallup methodology, these are not an average of one or two data points over the term of office. The questions are presented fairly regularly and responses are set up as "flow charts." I am not certain that the ancient archives are available on line, but more current data can be accessed without too much difficulty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

Stilly River Sage may look better with her glasses off (What?!), Deckman, but does she see better?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Teresa
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:53 PM

Hmmm, the reaction to Reagan's death is very interesting in light of a book I'm reading; Orson Scott card's _Speaker for the dead. It is a science fiction novel that features a character who speaks the plain truth (good and ill) of the lives of those who have died ... with very emotionally-charged results. It would be interesting to hear a speaking for Ronald Reagan. :>
Teresa


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 03:21 PM

Okay, I went back. Those 3s and 5s look similar without the lenses to help. But I read it this time without the glasses also. Go figure--my eyes get better after a while without the glasses unless I'm tired. . . I didn't feel like scrounging around the house to find my office glasses (they only work for close up reading and the computer screen) and I had taken off my "regular" glasses because they give me a horrible crick in the neck if I use them at the computer. Aging eyes. It's the pits.

Well, I must say I'm glad to see Clinton come out ahead, even if I still don't think that a single number really tells us much. There are general vaguarities and ways to slant popularity polls during all of these administrations. Every generation has it's way of skewing the numbers. There are aspects of self-fulfilling prophecy after a while that lead the gullible to the polls.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:07 PM

Too true.

Unfortunately, it seems like there are more "gullible" voters than "informed" voters in most elections for higher office than dog-catcher.

This time around, I only hope that the "scared s***less" voters outnumber the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:10 PM

How did Reagan ever get to be President when, on the evidence of this and the other Reagan thread, seemingly no-one voted for him? Or is it a case of selective amnesia? (LOL) :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:13 PM

Strolling Johnny ... Damned good question. I think the answer lies more with the uninformed voters than with the credentials of the elected. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST, Pope Pious X
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM

That's a no-brainer. People didn't know he was going to be such a shit until after he was elected. And, to anticipate your next brilliant observation, he got his second term because a wanker was run against him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 05:04 PM

"Wanker"--perfect--is that not the maiden name of Al Bundy's wife in Married with Children? Ah the symbolism.

I was delighted that there was one radio program today, at least, that had a pro and a con opinion of Reagan---and the callers, in the majority agreed with the person representing the "con" view of The Great Communicater---or, rather, The Great Glimmo of Smoke and Mirror fame.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:53 PM

I did hear a bit of a mixed review as three women gave rememberances on All Things Considered, but they're softpedalling most of it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:56 PM

Excellent, Teresa. As a child, Ender Wiggens, thinking he was playing a computer game, was duped into killing an entire species. He becomes Speaker for the Dead. He gives funeral orations. But he doesn't tell you what you want to hear. He tells you what you need to know.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM

Justa note of thanks, and I didn't want to start a whole nother thread. Between many institutions closing down here in the DC area and the non-stop almost unchallenged love fest--is "haliography" the right word?--I have been feeling a lot like a sane person in a world that is an mental asylum.

However, through emails from a few friends and family and several threads here on Mudcat, I have been reassured that I am not alone. Yes, there is much bellyaching about BS threads and whether they are a legitimate part of this forum. I insist that they are, and this is a perfect reason.

So thanks to many of you 'Catters who have reminded me that my memory of Reagan was real and that I am not alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 01:29 PM

Hagiography--writing the life of a saint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 01:44 PM

Bill D- I quote historians from mainstream publications like Time and Newsweek magazine.   Vast consensus puts Reagan in the top tier of presidents.   The american public voted him the greatest president every, but what do they know?   

I think 15 years (since he was president) is enough time to wait to review his legacy.    History in that period has been very kind to Reagan.    As stated earlier, he only averaged a 53% approoval rating while in office.   His legacy has grown with each passing year.   I think people admire his firm stance on issues and history (no matter how hard liberals try to rewrite the 80's)has proven Reagan to be a great president.

TV ratings for his funeral are up 30%.   Contrast this to Iraq prison stories which were force fed to the public for weeks straigt despite 15%-20% lower ratings.   No wonder the mainstream media is losing viewers.   The "real America" gets it and loved Reagan.

Someone above compared lines of the Lenin funeral to the Reagan funeral.   Are you comparing the USSR (who were forced to attend the funeral or risk being shot) to the people of the USA who voluntarily are waiting 10 hours to pay their respect?    My guess is that is only wishful thinking on your part.    If only Socialism would have worked we could push it in this country.   My mistake- we already are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

ABout half of the people in the United States, given a choice, will choose badly, as has been shown time and time again. Carter, Reagan and Bush fils are all paradigmatic examples of this.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM

Uh, Amos, do you mean we should have elected Ford instead of Carter? You lost me on that one...


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 02:08 PM

Reagan's popularity has risen over time for the same reason Kennedy's popularity has risen over time--nostalgia for the past, and selective memory on the part of the public. That is universal. Reagan is showing huge poll numbers now because he just died, and the media hype has been enormous. And among tv news networks, the picture being painted is incredibly distorted in a way that the print media response to his death hasn't been. But most people don't take the time that some of us do, to read the Washington Post, the NY & LA Times, the Boston Globe, etc. for a balancing of the distortions of tv news.

It really is that simple. Reagan isn't wildly popular today because of him being great. He is just the current focus of our attention.

A couple of weeks ago, it was American Idol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 02:10 PM

I dunno about that -- they were a pair of fumblers. Carter has done many good things since his presidency, and I mean no disrespect but I believe he was a bit ineffectual while on the post. I guess Ford being chosen in the primaries was inevitable, but surely the Demos could have come up with someone better than Jimmy. Thanks for blowing the whistle, though, I was writing faster than I was thinking, and ended up offsides as a result! :>)



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:41 PM

As to Reagan being the Supreme Cold Warrior Commander in Chief heroicizing going on in the American tv media, here are some excerpts from bit more objective interpretation, in today's Globe and Mail:

By LAWRENCE MARTIN
Thursday, June 10, 2004 - Page A23

Fiction has its place -- especially at the time of one's passing...It was his arms buildup, Republican admirers say, and his menacing rhetoric that brought the Soviets to their knees and changed the world forever...Truth be known, however, the Iron Curtain's collapse was hardly Ronald Reagan's doing.

It was Mikhail Gorbachev, who with a sweeping democratic revolution at home and one peace initiative after another abroad, backed the Gipper into a corner, leaving him little choice -- actors don't like to be upstaged -- but to concede there was a whole new world opening up over there.

As a journalist based first in Washington, then in Moscow, I was fortunate to witness the intriguing drama from both ends.

In R.R., the Soviet leader knew he was dealing with an archetype Cold Warrior. To bring him around to "new thinking" would require a rather wondrous set of works. And so the Gorbachev charm offensive began. The first offering, in 1985, was the Kremlin's unilateral moratorium on nuclear tests. "Propaganda!" the White House declared.

Then Mr. Gorbachev announced a grandiose plan to rid the world of nuclear weapons by 2000. Just another hoax, the Reagan men cried. More Commie flim-flam.

Then came another concession -- Kremlin permission for on-site arms inspections on Soviet land -- and then the Reykjavik summit. In Iceland, Mr. Gorbachev put his far-reaching arms-reduction package on the table and Mr. Reagan, to global condemnation, walked away, offering nothing in return.

Glasnost and perestroika became the new vernacular. For those in the White House like Richard Perle, the prince of darkness who still thought it was all a sham, Gorby now began a withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan. He released the dissident icon Andrei Sakharov and hundreds of other political prisoners. He made big strides on freedom of the press, immigration and religion. He told East European leaders that the massive Soviet military machine would no longer prop up their creaking dictatorships. He began the process of something unheard of in Soviet history -- democratic elections.

By now, the U.S. administration was reeling. Polls were beginning to show that, of all things unimaginable, a Soviet leader was the greatest force for world peace. An embarrassed Mr. Reagan finally responded in kind. Nearing the end of his presidency, he came to Moscow and he signed a major arms-control agreement and warmly embraced Mr. Gorbachev. A journalist asked the president if he still thought it was the evil empire. "No," he replied, "I was talking about another time, another era."

Full story can be read here:

"Gorby had the lead role, not Gipper"


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 05:41 PM

I've been reading this thread frequantly ... after all, I started it! My perception of the whole thing, as already captured by some, is this: Us Americans are looking for a hero. We've had a few, even recently. JFK comes to mind, for one.

There is no doubt that the late R. Reagan was very popular. Whether or not he deserves that popularity is just a matter of opinion. And like most things on the internet, I always value my opinion more than your opinion.

It's always sad when someone dies. But here, I think that R. Reagan is perhaps a symbol of our lost heros. Many, perhaps most of us, are truly struggling with what our country has done in Iraq.

To be able to submerge ourselves in some kind of 'grief' for R. Reagan's passing is maybe salve for our souls. I 'dunno! Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 06:00 PM

well, Larry K., in between all the glorious rhetoric all week, I have been hearing well-respected journalists (like the one just noted above) say about the same thing. Reagan was a charming ideologe--but he did NOT have a command of the issues and implications...not NEARLY as much as Clinton did..(whether you like Clinton or not!)

You have to read some of those articles VERY closely...saying he will be remembered and 'thought of' as great is not the same as saying he WAS great.

I saw an interview with some guy in line for the homage who had driven down from Pennsylvania. When asked what he admired about Ronnie, he said it was his 'charisma, character and optimism' and that "he made us feel good about ourselves"...NOT that his policies were effective...etc.
I gotta grant what the guy said, Ronnie had a way of putting a good face on things and smiling disarmingly as he raised my taxes and spent money like there was no tomorrow....and sadly, that is all it takes to sway a lot of folks these days who don't study issues, but go with image and smoke & mirrors.

   It's REALLY hard to say bad things about a guy who waves & smiles like that, so even his critics often feel awkward pointing out that such a sweet, charming Emperor has no clothes.

We shall see what history ultimately says once the hoopla is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 06:48 PM

Hero, Deckman? Where's the difference worth the name between Iran/Contra, Grenada, the October Surprise & the current Iraq debacle?

Pretty poor choice for hero status.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 07:20 PM

Please don't include me among the Americans seeking nationalist heros, or to buy into the nationalist mythologizing currently playing itself out on national television like a Spielberg movie.

A couple of things, Deckman. First, I believe you when you say you long for American heroes. But what you perhaps don't understand, is not all of us are looking for heroes to worship and admire, either on a personal level, a celebrity level, or a nationalist level.

Some of us just don't need or want to play that game. I understand there are many who say they NEED heroes, but they don't really. What is truer and more accurate is that they WANT AND DESIRE the emotional gratification they get from the psychological fix of identifying with and playing out these nationalist dramas. It is very seductive for those who feel little to no connection to a community beyond themselves, their friends, their families, and their co-workers.

If we live an honorable and decent life of integrity ourselves, take some reasonable risks at doing things we love, make the concerted effort to climb out of the safety of our social shells and be a contributing member of one or more communities that exist beyond our personal spheres, then there is no need to play these psychological games, and people aren't as easily preyed upon by politicians, ideologues, advertisers, religious zealots, etc. who easily manipulate our emotions, increase our wants and desires by giving us what we think we need and must have, because we let them.

Why do we allow ourselves to be manipulated by these sorts of fairy tale nationalist dramas? Because it is much easier than doing the hard work of living a life of passion, meaning, and integrity. It is easier to stand in line in sweltering heat for untold hours, to be able to get the little Reagan remembrance card to prove "I was part of the nationalist drama as it unfolded--I was a PLAYER on the stage".

There is an interesting article about this phenomenon of public mourning for national figures, celebrities, notorious persons, etc. in today's NY Times here:

"Good Grief: The Appeal of Public Sorrow"

I keep hearing again and again when the mourners are asked what was so great about Reagan, or what made him such a great leader, they all respond, when you strip their inarticulate wordiness down, to this: he made ME feel good. That is and isn't a recommendation for what we should look for in our political leaders.

One thing I work with teenagers on year in and year out, are biography research projects on famous people. Inevitably, they start out thinking that Gandhi was a religious leader, and Martin Luther King was a political leader. Ironic, that. But it does speak to the national mythologizing we do, especially when we conflate nationalist and religious myths. It is something we do all the time, and teach that to our children through the media, through our holidays, and through our rituals of mourning and memorializing famous people.

There is one group in particular that is easily seduced by this sort of mythologizing and dramatization of events like this, regardless of their race, class, religion, national origin, or sexual orientation: culturally conservative types who are comforted by the myths of a strong national patriarchy, be it political, religious, or military.

Just my .02 worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 07:32 PM

Does your honor and integrity include the language and accusations you have made elsewhere, GUEST? I know many people of honor and integrity. They don't use the kind of sexual innuendo and language you do.

I find this whole Reagan Rapture business to be an accurate description of what is going on. Typical of a media created kind of thing, and seconded by the Reaganites. Fact is that this man, in the long view, will be remembered as being an also ran among the great Presidents. It is true that he communicated well, and even among his adversaries he was known as a nice fellow. But when the history is written he will be remembered for creating some of the greatest deficits in history, and for Iran Contra. The bunk about his ending the Cold War is just that. He was a player, to be sure. But what he really was was a closer. The Cold War ended because the Soviet Union was built on an economic house of cards. I will give him credit for some fair moves in the end game, but the outcome was predetermined.

I find the hoopla and short memory of my fellow Yanks to be very disturbing.

Mick

P.S. GUEST, I know you will think I am just stalking you, but I just happened to read the thread. Honest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 07:58 PM

Well, I'm beginning to think that the RNC should be footing the bill for a share of this extravaganza which is quickly becoming a daily nonstop political ad... I reckon if one were to add up the TV time and actual costs for this circle jerk one could certianly fund the "No Child Left Behind" legislation that Bush signed into law but won't write the checks to pay for it... And I reckon a few hospitals could be built with the left over change...

Wonder if we'd be seeing such a circus if it was Jimmy Carter?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:06 PM

Guest and Big Mick are both absolutely right in my estimation. Reagan happened to be in the White House when Gorbachev ended the Cold War. Gorbachev was a great man, Reagan was an opportunist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:06 PM

All I can say is, they did the same thing to Nixon (ie, retroactively bestowing a halo simply because the man got old, sick and then died!), so can we really be surprised??

It was awfully obliging of Ronnie to finally pop off ("Ronald Reagan has Alzheimer's", the single most anticlimactic "news" story of the 20th century...to quote Austin Powers: "and Liberace was gay; I never saw that one coming!") just when the Republicans are so covered in shite in an election year that ANYTHING will do to boost morale, even if it's just the reinvention of a warmongering conservative whose "effectiveness" is measured by his ability to spend millions of tax dollars in the arms race.

Yeesh. For my part, I'll be glad when it's all over & the wee little communal attention span of what appears to be the vast majority of my countrymen can return to whatever happens to be the mind-numbing reality TV show of the moment.

D


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:17 PM

Here is an ironic little sound bite from ol' Art that fits this me thinks:

Even a dead whale on a flatcar draws crowds.

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:17 PM

"I reckon if one were to add up the TV time and actual costs for this circle jerk one could certianly fund the "No Child Left Behind" legislation that Bush signed into law but won't write the checks to pay for it..."

Excellent one there Bobert!!! You gave me a belly laugh with that one.

I think it is also legitimate to call this sort of three ring circus "public mourning period" a la Princess Di, "recreational grieving". I stole that one from the Brits. Here, read this excerpt from a British website I ripped off, and put in the appropriate Americanisms to make it fit. It will make you feel better, and bring that blood pressure down:

"America is suffering a severe bout of "mourning sickness", a collective condition characterised by ostentatious, recreational grieving for dead celebrities and murder victims.

The nation has replaced the social ties of church and family with the rites of conspicuous compassion - mounds of rotting flowers and sodden teddy bears and the "lapel loutism" of empathy ribbons. This unflattering portrait of British (ed: and American! we need it too!) society is offered in a new booklet published by the think tank Civitas, the Institute for the Study of Civil Society. Patrick West, a freelance writer and author of the 80-page polemic, argues that cynical and selfish motives lie at the root of all recent public displays of grief. "To today's collective 'carers', the fate of the homeless, starving Africans or dead celebrities is not actually of principal importance," West writes. "What really drives their behaviour is the need to be seen to care. And they want to be seen displaying compassion because they want to be loved themselves."

West identifies the emergence of mass mourning for people we do not know as a late 20th-century trend. Following the Hungerford shootings of 1987, when Michael Ryan killed 16 people, there was no national outpouring of sympathy. The Hillsborough football disaster of 1989 saw public grief largely localised on Merseyside, where most of the 95 dead had lived.

But by 1996, the murders of 16 children in a primary school in Dunblane brought a stream of politicians and a flood of cards and flowers to the Scottish town. The death of Diana, Princess of Wales, the next year produced "ghoulish" displays of weeping and countless bouquets of flowers were piled up outside Kensington Palace.

West writes: "It was not surprising that the mood of ostentatious caring ran so high at this time. Diana was herself an icon of conspicuous compassion. . . She was a professional 'victim' - of infidelity and eating disorders - and wore her heart on her sleeve." Further mass displays of grieving followed the death of Linda McCartney, wife of former Beatle Sir Paul and the murder of television presenter Jill Dando. This "grief lite" was, says West, "an enjoyable event" for many, much like going to a sports event or concert.

Yet the spread of shows of compassion have not been accompanied by a growth in charitable giving. Between 1995 and 1999, donations to good causes dropped 31 per cent. West says the phenomenon reached a "fearsome" peak in August 2002 when thousands of "grief tourists" descended on the Cambridgeshire town of Soham to leave flowers and cuddly toys in memory of the murdered schoolgirls Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman.

On the anniversary of the murders the girls' families asked people to stay away. The appeal may not have been necessary, because the compassion caravan has a tendency to move on quickly.

West says: "Today Diana is a mostly forgotten individual. Judging by the 'outpourings of grief' in late 1997, one would have thought her memory would have remained etched on the public's consciousness.

"Yet on the fifth anniversary of her death, the gardens of Althorp and Kensington Palace were deserted . . . The public had moved on. They were now too busy 'never forgetting' other people."

______________________________________


Ya know--those lines at the Capitol sure look like a bunch of those 'grief tourists' in DC on summer vacation, don't they? And they don't seem so sad at all. It looks like kind of a party atmosphere, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:24 PM

A friend of mine who was visiting in Australia during the 1984 campaign tells me that the Aussies were incredulous that we would even consider electing a President who so obviously had dementia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:56 PM

To "GUEST". I'll make this brief and hopefully very clear. I have decided that I will NEVER RESPOND to any comments by anyone who signs in just as a "guest." This also means that I will not even read any threads opened up by a "guest." Have a good life. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 09:07 PM

Hmmmm. Could it be the "recreational grieving" label fits you too well, Deckman?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 09:11 PM

What an interesting and sardonic article!! But I think there is some truth to it.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 09:29 PM

There's more than just that one. The essay that is being referred to was published last February in the UK, is called 'Conspicuous Compassion: why sometimes it really is cruel to be kind, ' by Patrick West, written on behalf of the UK think-tank Civitas - the Institute for the Study of Civil Society.

The author asserts that cynical and selfish motives lie at the root of all recent public displays of grief. The press release at the Civitas website can be found here:

http://www.civitas.org.uk/hwu/prcs34.php

We live in an age of conspicuous compassion. We sport empathy ribbons, send flowers to recently deceased celebrities, weep in public over murdered children, apologize for historical misdemeanors, wear red noses for the starving, go on demonstrations to proclaim 'Drop the Debt' or 'Not in My Name.'

We feel each other's pain. We desperately seek a common identity and new social bonds to replace those that have withered in the post-war era - the family, the church, the nation and neighborhood. Mourning sickness is a religion for the lonely crowd that no longer subscribes to orthodox churches. Its flowers and teddies are its rites, its collective minutes' silences its liturgy and mass.

This book's thesis is that such displays of empathy do not change the world for the better: they do not help the poor, diseased, dispossessed or bereaved. Our culture of ostentatious caring is about projecting your ego, and informing others what a deeply caring individual you are. It is about feeling good, not doing good, and illustrates not how altruistic we have become, but how selfish. And, as Patrick West shows in this witty but incisive monograph, sometimes it can be cruel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 11:34 PM

Just a reminder for those who haven't bothered to go back to the first post. Deckman said:

    Just now at the supper table, I think I invented a new phrase: "Reagan Rapture." At least I don't remember hearing it any where else.

    I explained to "Bride Judy" that us folks in America are so hungry to find a president to look up to, to admire, that we'll even try to reserect, or claim, admirable qualities that are quite questionable.

The clue to where Bob is coming from is that phrase "claim admirable qualities that are quite questionable." Americans without a real good grip on history are a phalanx, lining up behind the mavens of right-wing rhetoric. It's like mass hypnosis. There's an inability to evaluate what happened over the years Reagan was in office--the hollywood glow and charisma have blinded them.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 12:19 AM

SRS ... well said. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:48 AM

Some posts back, our esteemed Guest opined that the public's opinion of all presidents has a tendency to rise with the passage of time. Absence may, indeed, cause the heart to grow fonder in some cases, but I am suspicious that this is not always the case in the public arena. Aside from the events and speeches immediately surrounding the funereal ceremonies of his death, Mr. Nixon has not seemed to gain a whole lot of stature from that which he had at the time of his resignation. More recently, how many critics have softened their disdain of Mr. Clinton. Guest seems to imply that Mr. Kennedy's stock has risen in the four decades since his passing. To the contrary, I think. The 70% average approval rate reported by Gallup during his term is likely substantially above what might be currently polled in light of recent revelations of his deceit about numerous things (his health, his family life, foreign policy decisions).

All in all, though, the "fog of time" effect on the country's recollection may just be another indicator of how much we, as a people, never quite lose our hatred of the study of history.

Its so irritating when those pesky facts intrude on our blissful memories and reverie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 11:29 AM

Larry K--

Your "observations" are such an easy target, it's pathetic. --" The public voted him the greated (sic) president in history (per time (sic) magazine)"   Better than Washington, Lincoln, FDR?   We should take this seriously?

I suspect this Time quote is taken from the Feb 2001 Gallup poll on the subject. From a Wall St. Journal column recently:   "When the firm (Gallup) asked the same question in May 2003, 51% of respondents named a post-1960 president. Among Democrats, 46% picked either John F. Kennedy or Bill Clinton, while 41% of Republicans chose either Mr. Reagan or George W. Bush." As the column puts it: "Whatever the merits of these four men, it seems premature at best to declare them greater than the likes of Washington and Lincoln".


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Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:01 AM

Collective Amnesia or Collective Alzheimer's: America 'Remembers' Ronald Reagan
by Paul Douglas Newman

To remember Ronald Reagan as one of the greatest Presidents of the twentieth century, to replace FDR on the dime with Reagan's profile as Republicans wish to do, we are being asked to forget too much. We are asked to forget Lebanon, where Reagan decided to "cut and run" after hundreds of Marines perished when a suicide bomber invaded their compound. We are asked to forget the arms for hostages deal. We are asked to forget El Salvador, where the right wing ARENA, armed with Reagan money, Reagan weapons, and Reagan military training from the School of the America's at Fort Benning, Georgia slaughtered more than 80,000 civilians in the "War on Communism."

We are asked to forget the Iran-Contra Scandal, an event that he evidently "could not recall" in response to more than one hundred questions during the Congressional hearings. We are asked to forget the groundwork laid for nuclear disarmament by Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Nixon. We are asked to forget the Strategic Arms Limitations Treaties I and II.

We are asked to forget the re-freezing of the Cold War following the Nixon thaw, when Reagan bellicosely denounced the Soviets as the "Evil Empire," and then joked on his weekly radio address that our missiles were ready to launch. We are asked to forget the silly invasion of Grenada following the Lebanon disaster, and the reversal of goodwill gestures made to the Caribbean made by previous administrations, including the return of the Panama Canal. We are asked to forget the Soviet Union's internal move to Perestroika, a groundswell that occurred over decades resulting in a generation of new Communists by 1985 who were not manufactured by Reagan's bravado, but were products of the "Evil Empire."

We are asked to forget that Reagan presided over the worst recession since the Great Depression. We are asked to forget the enormous cuts to social welfare programs and the Veterans Administration, moves that led to such an enormous rise in the homeless population, especially evident on the streets of Washington, D.C., that even comedians felt that they had to do something to stop the bleeding with "Comic Relief." We are asked to forget the policies that enriched agri-business at the expense of small farmers, continuing the decline of the family farm to the point that recording artists were the only ones left to uphold the Populists' mantle with "Farm-Aid."

We are asked to forget that he slashed taxes for the wealthiest, raised taxes on the poor, and then bailed out the corrupt Savings and Loan industry at taxpayer expense. We are asked to forget that his SEC presided over such a corrupt and over-inflated stock market that the Dow saw the largest one-day crash in its history, greater than in 1929. We are asked to forget that Reagan's economic policies effected a reversal in the trend toward greater distribution of wealth begun by Progressive Republican, Democratic, and Socialist politicians in the early twentieth centuries, and have led us to the greatest concentration of wealth today since the days of Andrew Carnegie and James Pierpont Morgan.

We are asked to forget the enormous and outrageous military contracts, for which American taxpayers paid hundreds of dollars for nuts, bolts, and toilet seats, and the nation saw defense-spending rise to astronomical heights. We are asked to forget the Reagan Administration's opposition to the Civil Rights movement, their blocking of busing programs and cuts to Head Start meant to bring equality of opportunity to American education. We are asked to forget that Reagan considered ketchup to be a vegetable in federal school lunch programs.

We are asked to forget "government cheese." We are asked to forget jelly beans, splitting wood, bad b-movies, McCarthy-ite participation in Hollywood blacklisting.
We are asked to forget our history.

Full article at http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0607-10.htm
…Paul Douglas Newman is Associate Professor of American History at the University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown, PA


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