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BS: Lies, Lies, Lies

freda underhill 19 Jun 05 - 08:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 May 04 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 29 May 04 - 12:20 AM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 08:45 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 08:34 PM
Amos 28 May 04 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,TIA 28 May 04 - 03:14 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 02:52 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 02:38 PM
Amos 28 May 04 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 02:02 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 01:15 PM
Chief Chaos 28 May 04 - 12:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 04 - 06:56 AM
akenaton 28 May 04 - 06:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 04 - 05:48 AM
Gareth 28 May 04 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 01:20 AM
Bobert 27 May 04 - 09:35 PM
Peace 27 May 04 - 09:22 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 May 04 - 09:06 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 08:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 08:43 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,Teribus 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 08:01 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 07:27 PM
Gareth 27 May 04 - 07:22 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller (contd.) 27 May 04 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 27 May 04 - 05:35 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 04:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM
Amos 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Larry K 27 May 04 - 02:12 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 01:31 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,TIA 27 May 04 - 12:24 PM
Amos 27 May 04 - 11:49 AM
Chief Chaos 27 May 04 - 11:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 11:10 AM
Amos 27 May 04 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Larry K 27 May 04 - 10:04 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:44 AM

Lawyers told the British government that US and British bombing of Iraq in the months before the war was illegal under international law....

Iraq prewar attack was illegal


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 04 - 01:05 PM

In Latin the word virtus means strength - but Romans were realistic enough to know that this wasn't necessarily a good thing. The distinction Clint makes is a useful one.

Without it you get into the absurd situation where it is suggested that a suicide bomber must be a coward, because being courageous is obviously a good thing, and therefore can't apply to anyone engaged in something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 May 04 - 12:20 AM

Well, my point was that many people confuse strengths with virtues.

For instance, I used to think that an intelligent man would necessarily be a good man, because he could see that honesty is the best policy, and his self-interest would be enlightened self-interest. It finally came to me that, reasonable as I thought that opinion was, in practice there's lots of intelligent scoundrels.

"Decisiveness" is considered a virtue lately, but as Mr. Vonnegut said recently, psychopaths are very good at decisiveness. And courage.

I thiink I should have said something like "goodness" instead of "virtue." I believe "virtue" originally was connected more to strength & power than decency, & still is in some uses.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:45 PM

Oh, here are a couple more things that CAN bring out the best in people...

Love

Adversity

You can also probably come up with examples when those things bring the worst out in people if you want...but that doesn't invalidate the original statement...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:34 PM

As far as I'm concerned, virtues ARE strengths...and many strengths are also virtues (but not all of them). One can be very strong and not the least bit virtuous. Or one can be a mixture, which is the case with most people.

I suspect that I would also have disliked the Nazis before they lost...most probably. (I usually dislike aggressive, militaristic forces in society, and I tend to side with the underdog if with anyone.) I wasn't around before they lost, though. My father was, and he fought against them.

Words are confusing. They don't express enough by themselves. You also need to know the context, the emotional communication, the origins of the speaker, and so on. Half (or more) of these arguments we get into on the Net are just pointless, because we are really arguing about nothing...just misinterpreting other people's words. We end up arguing not to uncover any Truth, but merely to win. I find that kind of discouraging. It makes me wonder why I even bother to communicate with people this way.

I could probably be doing something far more productive, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:01 PM

Thanks, Clint!! My memory is much improved by your research!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:46 PM

I just googled "bo and peep:"

http://www.factnet.org/hgsinger.htm?FACTNet    says

At first they called themselves Guinea and Pig -- she was Guinea, and he was Pig -- because that was what they were: guinea pigs for the higher power in the space ship. They didn't want their real names used because they were in the process of getting rid of their identity. Later they called themselves Bo and Peep, apparently because they considered themselves to be shepherds. Their followers became known as Bo Peepers.

This woman had written a diary about her experiences while she was in the cult. My informant, as I call her, told me that she had found out the names of the real names of the leaders of this cult were Marshall Herb Applewhite, and the woman's name was Binder Truce Dell Nettles.

And from another site:

Do and Ti (aka Bo and Peep)

Birth/Death:

Do (1931-1997) was born Marshall Herff Applewhite in Spur, Texas;Ti (1927- 1985) was born Bonnie Lu Nettles, birthplace unknown.

I didn't go any farther... clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:29 PM

LH

Well. I disliked the Nazis before they lost. I don't like the way the "we" treated the Indians, or the Filipinos although "we" won.

Leadership, courage, loyalty, intelligence, even self-sacrifice are strengths, not virtues; possession of those qualities makes a good man better and a bad man worse - up to the point where the good man is too successful and becomes corrupted by power.

We depend too much on leaders. Perhaps we need to think more in terms of guides. Better yet on becoming more enlightened ourselves

Amos-
Maybe I'm confusing the Heaven's Gate leaders with someone else; there were some nuts that went by "He" and "She" and other clever combinations. "Bo" and "Peep"? I'll see if I can look it up.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:14 PM

I thought Heaven's Gate leader was Marshall Hepplewhite (sp?)???


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:52 PM

There were a lot of people who felt that way about George Washington. If the revolutionaries had lost, those people would not have been seen in such a positive light in the history books that followed.

I, by the way, think those people were entirely justified in their positive view of George Washington. He was a very good leader, in my opinion. But British loyalists might well have hated and detested him...for reasons which made perfect sense to them.

A bad leader by definition is one who either (1) is not very good at leading (2) or who leads the people far astray, despite being good at leading. Hitler qualifies bigtime for number 2. George Washington doesn't qualify for either.

To recognize that perfectly normal and decent people can mistakenly back a leader who is leading them astray, Clint, is to learn compassion. Millions and millions of perfectly normal Germans mistakenly backed Hitler, and if he had won the war their descendants would still be singing his praises, there would be statues of him everywhere, and virtually no one would even believe there had been any genocide against anyone by the Germans. It would be forgotten. Swept under the carpet. Classified information.   Depend on it. That's the power of propaganda and media over people's view of reality.

The reason you hate the Nazis is because they lost, and you now have the benefit of hindsight over the matter. If they had won, you would not have the benefit of hindsight. You...or whoever was living in your place now would probably be under the totally false impression that they had "saved the World for democracy" or some such sort of nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:38 PM

That's right, Clint, and it raises some interesting questions, doesn't it?

But the important question for you is...who do YOU feel that way about???? There will always be others who think differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:20 PM

IIRC the Heaven's Gate leader was named Appleby, and his wife was likewise.

Did they have othe rnames? Many?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:10 PM

put in "people" instead of "Germans," please. Vocabulary malfunction.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:02 PM

"When you deeply admire a parent, a teacher, an officer, a president...when you trust them and feel you can rely on them in any situation...when you love them deeply...THAT brings out the best in people."

A lot of Germans felt that way about Hitler. And Jim Jones. And the Heaven's Gate honchos under their many names...

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:15 PM

Oh, I see, Gareth...

Well, to answer Clint in as simple a way as possible:

What brings out the best in people is inspired leadership (whether it be by their parents, their teachers, their military commanders, their political leaders or their religious leaders). Inspired leadership can accomplish virtual miracles.

When you deeply admire a parent, a teacher, an officer, a president...when you trust them and feel you can rely on them in any situation...when you love them deeply...THAT brings out the best in people.

And what is "the best"? It equates to courage, love, compassion, idealism, confidence, good humour, determination, loyalty, mercy, fairness, tolerance, and other such virtues. I remember a couple of really good teachers in my years at school who brought forth those virtues in their students, and those teachers were worth their weight in gold, I can tell you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:55 PM

"All of the terrorist leaders consider Bush their enemy"

Isn't it funny that alot of the world leaders now consider him the same?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:56 AM

From previous posts I am sure you are not bigoted against Muslim, ake - but when you talked about "the leaders of Islam" as "determined to wipe it out (Western culture) through increasing terrorist activity" you were using the language that bigots use, and saying something that is simply not true.

Those who are proponents of terrorism are not "the leaders of Islam", insofar as that there are such people - Islam is as fragmented and diverse as Christianity. They aren't even the leaders of fundamentalist Islam, and that is fragmented too, and means all kinds of things, some very nasty and others a lot less so.

It's a bit like equating anarchists with bomb-throwers, and ignoring the reality that most people who'd use that term to describe themselves are committed to non-violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:34 AM

Im a bit surprised by the tone of some replies to my query "What do we do about I. F.
Some Mudcats seem to think I am racist or bigoted against Moslems.
This is certainly not true,but I stillfeel that I F is the greatest danger the West has faced,because it take a small number of people who dont care for their own lives or safety,and who have no regard for the suffering of others. In other words anything is permissible if its for the "glory of god"
Its all about power.
The West gets its power from enslaving people by the use of money
The Fundamentalists get their power by promising "pie in the sky"
The manipulators are all scum,be they Iranian Mullahs or American Republicans.
If this is an example of the modern world,give me the Stone age any day .....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:48 AM

And that's true - but inevitably it also brought out the worst as well. All too often we take on the qualties of those we fight against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:34 AM

Sorry LH - I thnk you missed my point.

Nazism (SP) did bring out the best in some people Not confined to Germany.

Perhaps I could have put it clearer, but the reaction against brought out many deeds and attitudes in resistance.

Not that this justifies that repugnant creed.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:05 AM

Well, now that I've calmed down a little.

I was 4-5 years too young to get into WWII but I remember it, and it strikes a nerve if anyone says a good word about Nazis or Fascists. I cannot believe that they did anything "best." What they did caused a lot of misery and destroyed a good deal of the world, including their own country. There are better ways of making the trains run on time.

And I do not believe that what is wrong with the US today is too much Democracy.

And a hunting and gathering culture is excellent ecologically, but it is not a system of government. There are many kinds of hunting and gathering societies.

I am in favor of an Enlightened Anarchy, but I don't think we can get there from here. Not soon, anyway.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:20 AM

Who, exactly was better as a Nazi than he would have been as a Republican or Democrat?

Rommel was a good soldier, and a brave man, and loyal and all those manly virtues, but he was working toward making the world safe for genocide. And it wasn't Nazism (how do you spell that, anyway?) that brought out those qualities

And it wasn't democracy that brought out the worst in Hitler. It "brought out Hitler," in the sense of putting him in office, but it's not democracy that made him the way he was.

And it wasn't democracy that made Ashcroft the nut that he is. He wouldn't have been a nice man under Castro or the Mullahs.

What government is it that does bring out the best in people, boys?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:35 PM

Okay, brucie, I don't and I consider myself a *good* Christian... Problem is that the military industrialists need boogie men to keep the working class distracted while Boss Hog rapes them. There aren't enough bin Ladens or saddam Hussains to go around so they heve just demonized everyone of Islamic Faith.... Make's their Cristian Right Nazis happy, too...

Life is good if yer part of the neo-con facsit movement in Amerika these days...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:22 PM

Fionn: Maybe it's time the good guys made the news. I would love to hear from the ones who do not hate everyone who isn't a follower of Islam. I really would. It might begin to defuse the whole thing. Just might.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:06 PM

Shame on you, Ake. To say the leaders of Islam want to bring down the western democracies is a generalisation too sweeping by far. As with any religion, different adherents interpret it in different ways. But I doubt if there's a case for saying Islam has more fundamentalist nutters than any other religion. You may have noticed that Shia leaders in Iraq were calling on Moqtada al Sadr (viewed by most Shia muslims as a young tearaway) to end his insurgency right from the outset.

The parallel that Amos draws with the Catholic church is a fair one, nad it should be remembered that popes were issuing encyclicals hostile to democracy right into the 20th century.

Little Hawk, re your 9.19pm post: you couldn't have said it better.

McG, to be fair to Kimmitt I think you may have misunderstood his reference to "Ali Babas". Either that, or I did. As I understood it, he was acknowledging that Iraqie were entitled to bear arms, so they could defend themselves against thieves, looters etc - or "Ali Babas", which is the term that Iraqis themselves use.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:50 PM

Couldn't agree more, McGrath. Anyone who has a gigantic amount of money at their disposal (and guess who does...) can easily hijack a democracy, control all the major political parties, and run the show whatever damn way they like. When the people get mad at one bought party, the other bought party takes over, and very little changes. I call it a velvet dictatorship. It looks like democracy, but it isn't. It's a plutocracy.

Still, I do prefer a velvet dictatorship to an outright armed dictatorship...so things could be worse, that's for sure. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:43 PM

If democracy just means having an election every few years where you stick a tick in a box, there is no reason on earth why that must weaken "the power of the few". In fact in itself it could well increase the power and the fervour, if it meant that they could claim that they were acting with the approval of the many.

For a free society there have to be significant restrictions on the power of any government, and there is, in some ways, a tension between that and "democracy".


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM

Well Teribus maybe I am barkin',but I still think there was a lot to be said for the times before technology, industrial revolutions,engineered mass starvation,global warming, environmental pollution,and most importantly, Nature ruled the roost,giving everyone a good natural immunity to disease.Woof, Woof ,Woof


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM

If democracy just means having an election every years where you stick a tick in a box, there is no reason on earth why that must weaken "the power of the few". In fact in itself it could well increase the power and the fervour, if it meant that they could claim that they were acting with the approval of the many.

For a free society there have to be significant restrictions on the power of any government, and there is, in some ways, a tension between that and "democracy".


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:28 PM

Well, perhaps he means "a good thing for the natural environment and some of the other living creatures besides US!" (The great "us", remember? The guys who think they are the owners of the planet, the Masters of Creation, and the greatest thing since Tyrannosaurus Rex?)

The fact is, teribus, there are way too many people on this planet already and there's getting to be too little of everything else. Not a good situation. I have no simple, elegant solution other than a massive worldwide birth control program which most people are apparently unwilling to engage in. I've done my bit. I have sired no children in this life, and it was by design, not by chance.

Besides, I figured I'd have made a really lousy parent anyway... :-) The domestic life is just not my forte. I can imagine doing about 5,000 other things better than raising a family. My opinion is that most people have children partly because they want to, partly because it just happens anyway, partly because it's fun trying, and partly because they think they're SUPPOSED to! I never thought that for a moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM

"By the way Iv no particular axe to grind on this question,as I think it would probably be quite a good thing ,inthe long term, if the Western economies collapsed and we reverted to the Stone age."

I think you would be pretty lonely in wishing that...Ake, you gotta be barkin' mad.

While adopting a democractic system of government would not end Islam, it would break the power of the few. That is exactly what happenned to the Church of Rome (i.e. Rennaissence - Reformation)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM

Yeah, Gareth. In terms of inspiring a tremendously courageous and effective armed forces and civilian population the Nazis most certainly brought out "the best" in their troops and citizens, performance-wise...but aimed it toward terribly dark purposes. This, needless to say, was not evident to most of those troops at the time or they would not have fought so willingly and so well. As always, the ordinary many in uniform were duped into fighting and dying for the powerful few at the top. I'd say this has been the case in most, if not all military conflicts...although there are cases when those at the top sincerely believe they are defending all that is good and decent. I think Hitler believed that in fact! (But it's no excuse for what he did...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:01 PM

Well, we don't have anything that can really be described as democracy, rule by the people. We have elective oligarchies and dictatorships of various sorts. But rule by anyone is capable of producing some variety of tyranny, you don't avoid that simply by having a different system of goverment, it needs constant vigilance.

WE live in dangerous times, but as always the biggest danger lies with the people who control the most power and have the most capacity to destroy us. That is not the terrorist fringe. On a global scale they are a nuisance. At no time and in no nation have the numbers of people killed by that kind of thing approached the numbers killed in such ways as road accidents, let alone, for example, lung cancer. That includes 911.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:27 PM

Clint....Hitler,I believe was democratically elected.
But no democratically elected government, seems to govern democratically.
Im far too cynical to be on anybodys side.Im simply pointing out the dangers as I see them.The ordinary people are always the ones who suffer, while the politicians and religious fanatics,twist, turn,bully and cajole in their quest for power over their brothers and sisters.
Little Hawk,I think we must have known one another in a previous existence,as find myself agreeing with everything you say,....Very spooky .

Western "Democracy"is a euphemism for money....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:22 PM

GUEST,Clint Keller

To a degree yes the Nazi's did bring out the best in some people. Unfotunately to many it was a posthumous (SP) recognition.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:01 PM

Going by my observations, it's money that brings out the worst in people. :-) That, and fundamentalist religions of all types...or extremist ideologies (like doctrinaire Communism, for example or Naziism or modern corporatism). Together, it's a deadly combination.

Larry - Yes, I think Al Queda does relish the thought of Bush, their deadly arch-enemy, being in power just as much as anyone who ardently desires an intractable and worsening World conflict relishes the presence of their favorite hated enemy...it helps to motivate the public, stir outrage, rally the troops, and encourage further recruitment. It stokes the fires of conflict. They are looking for an Armaggedon, not a peaceful solution. They believe that God will secure them the victory. The last thing you want in such a case is a reasonable, or heaven forbid...a likeable opponent! Hell, no! You want a monster,a devil, a satan, another Hitler, a Saddam, a Stalin...or in their case...a Bush. And the USA is exactly the same...the US government always wants a real or else a supposed brutal Monster on the other side of any conflict it engages in. It's good marketing strategy, and is used again and again and again. If Saddam, for instance, had not existed, the USA would have been obliged to invent him (meaning, find someone else to serve as "Bad Guy de Jour"). This is partly because they assume the public are mostly idiots, and must be given a really evil, evil, monstrous guy to fixate on while the government pursues its various strategic objectives around the World. Well, maybe they're right about their public...

Those who live in fear and hatred market by means of fear and hatred. Those who fall for such marketing serve as the foot soldiers, and, if unlucky, die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller (contd.)
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:40 PM

--or "the bad ,mad,men of the East who have been taught to despise life and love death, all to keep the Mullahs power intact"?

What is it you're in favor of? What side are you on?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:35 PM

"Democracy always seems to bring out the worst in people..
Ake "

As opposed to Nazism, for instance?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:25 PM

Amos ....I wasn't talking of your tame American Moslems,who could be said to have been "corrupted" by the fleshpots of the West.
But the bad ,mad,men of the East who have been taught to despise life and love death,all to keep the Mullahs power intact.
Islam and Western style"democracy are two completely different concepts and are incompatable.
The most longlasting and successful societies on earth have been undemocratic,in the now accepted sense of the word ...Democracy always seems to bring out the worst in people...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM

"Almost every terrorist leader has labeled Bush as the enemy."

And if you're in that bsuiness it helps to have a distinctive personal enemy, preferably one that is going to make bad mistakes and be regarded generally as a buffoon and a laughing stock. Possibly (possibly) not in the USA, but elsewhere, defnitely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM

Amos ...Im afraid you are not correct in your statement that Islamic

Jeeze, ake...I never said any such thing!! Don't be puttin' words in my mouth -- there's no room in there with both my feet needing space.

Democracy will not mean the end of Islam any more than it meant the end of the Church of Rome, an equally autocratic and authoritarian religous structure. There are scores of conscientious Muslims who live in the United States observing their religion and living under the law at the same time.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:12 PM

McGrath-   It is interesting: the article you quote states that Al Queda ranks have grown to 18,000.   Later in the article it explains how it got that number.    The article says there used to be 20,000 in Al Queda but we have killed 2,000 of them leaving 18,000 in Al Queda.    I don't quite understand if they were 20,000, and now they are 18,000 how can they be growing?    I would love to use that logic with my diet.   I could eat anything and still lose weight.

As far as Bush and terrorism- I really can't believe that someome made the argument that terrorists would prefer Bush in the white house.   Almost every terrorist leader has labeled Bush as the enemy.   The bombings in Spain were revenge for them supporting us in Iraq. (so much for no connection)   In my informal poll (not scientific) I would venture to say that Sadaam and his sons would not be supporting in the upcoming election.    The last quoted word from the sons was "I think this time the Americans are serious.   Bush in not like Clinton"


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:31 PM

Gareth....You and I agree at last,I never thought to see it!!!
Is there room for me on the "Space Ship"


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:22 PM

Amos ...Im afraid you are not correct in your statement that Islamic fundamentalists are much the same as christian fundamentalists.
The difference is in the two separate cultures.
Islamic society is not at all "Democratic",and I dont necessarily mean that as a bad thing in itself. But if Western so called Democracy spreads through the Middle East,it will eventually mean the end of Islam and the end of power for the Mullahs.
Every one of these Mullahs is a potential Osama,if they are squeezed into a corner,and they seem to be able to convince young Arabs of the glory of Martyrdom,therefore they are different and very much more dangerous than our own relatively harmless loonies.
By the way Iv no particular axe to grind on this question,as I think it would probably be quite a good thing ,inthe long term, if the Western economies collapsed and we reverted to the Stone age.
Maybe we would start treating "Mother Nature" with some respect, second time around.....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:24 PM

Larry K says "Finally, who does Al Queda want to win?   Lets see...."

Nope, let's ask 'em. Wait, we don't have to.

Abu Hafs al-Masri (unequivocally linked to Al Quaeda) issued a statement after the Madrid train bombings. The statement, in part, says that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of (wait for it...)    President Bush! "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections." Apparently, they are quite happy with "Bush's...idiocy and religious fanaticism" because they "wake up" the Islamic world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:49 AM

Akneton,

Both Chriostian extremists and Muslim extremists are a p[roblem. But they are a minority. I expect that an 80% rule applies -- 80% of the turmoil is genrated by 20% of the people.

Organizations like the al Qeda, no matter how populous, tend to wither away when their drivers are gone. They build their numbers out of people who need someone other than themselves to blame for their own lack of spirit, rather than poeple who are genuinely motivated to forward their cult. Without a ringleader, the vassals disperse to other things.

I believe the vast majority of Muslims in the world would be quite happy to live lives of simple production, learning the peaceful side of the Koran and getting along with others. The fanatacism is a special aberration that really has to be pushed to be kept going.

SO the answer to "what to do" is to (a) constrain those who would resort to violence (b) remove the incentive toward violence by seeking to establish genuine communication and a reaosnable degree of justice and (c) help build self-genrating economic communities.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:13 AM

Ake - So what do you suppose we should do about them? Turn the middle east to glass and start over? My suggestion would have been a covert operation to Iraq, recovery of a few scud missiles which I would have promptly chucked into Iran, thus starting another Iran/Iraq war taking care of two birds with one stone. Still it's not likely that the rest of the world would sit easy with either.

As far as anti-america goes, I don't think anyone here is actually anti-american. The problem here is that some are so pro-American patriotic that they can't see where we have gone wrong over the years and earned some of the hatred that is directed against us. If we didn't keep mucking about in other countries politics, if American based companies didn't keep coming in and taking advantage of "cheap labor" and operating with total disregard for any of the labor, environmental, and safety laws, if America used compassionate guidance instead of strong arm threats and tactics. Just because we have the largest and best military doesn't mean we have to employ it as diplomatic policy.

I don't hate Bush, I don't like many of his policies. This is far different than the 8 years of witch hunts that went on before. Everything that Clinton (scum that he is) said and did was scrutinized intensly, investigated to the nth degree (three investigations into Vince Foster's death and some still believe Clinton killed him). Every action that Clinton might have taken was gleefuly described as "Wag the dog" and "cover for his indiscretions". When they finally got him for Monica Lewinsky and lying to Congress (who had no business asking him in the first place) Most of us were extremely tired of the whole process.

Now how can you expect anyone on the left not to reciprocate? Especially when you consider things like the energy policy being written with Enron's assistance (just prior to their collapse for juggling the books), former Enron employees making up a great deal of the current administration, the whole process cloaked in secrecy. A Vice President who claims that he is not influenced by his former position when every decision he advises on for the energy industry directly affects his pension? A President that won't answer whther he ever used illicit substances when this was a big deal in the Clinton years. Claims of service that don't seem to have a paper trail. Etc, Etc. Etc. And we haven't even gotten to the weapons of mass distruction. Yes the warheads, although unloaded, were WMD's but where are the chemicals meant to fill the warheads? That's what most people are thinking of. And most of us don't regard Mustard Gas as a WMD. A major pain in the ass which could cause some deaths and incapacitate most it came in contact with, but not anything along the lines of the different nerve gases. And nothing like Phosgene, Chlorine or Cyanide in intensity. One warhead filled with Sarin? We've misplaced battle tanks and warships in this country. I can see someone coming across the shell and deciding to use it not even knowing what was in it. Given the materials used to make the shells and the high technology used to keep an eye on Iraq since the previous Gulf War I find it hard to comprehend why we haven't found any stockpiles. And if we find Sudan or Syria know has these types of weapons how do we know they came from Iraq? Saddam's nuclear program was apparently pushing up the daisies (quite literally). The jets found burried were from the previous war and wouldn't work well without a really good overhaul.

We were given dire threats of mushroom clouds and massive casualties that we had to prevent and yet no WMDs were used on our troops as we went in even though Saddam had to know at the time that the jig was up.

The biggest problem I see is that where once we had a country with a pretty incompetent military, we are now training their replacements.
Another problem is that our ports, borders and rail lines go pretty much unsecured with all of the troops employed elsewhere.

And the only out from Iraq that I see is to divide the country into thirds in relative proportion to the different sect populations and then get massive UN involvement to prevent a civil war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:10 AM

"the other party that has gone to war against him."

And as a result of the way that has been done Al Qaeda is now much stronger than it was before. And that is not just some prejudiced lefty's opinion, it's what the International Institute of Strategic Studies - "the world's leading authority of political military conflict" - has to say in its annual strategic survey out this week:

Here's how that extreme left-wing paper the Financial Times summarised it:

The al-Qaeda terrorist network is a "viable and effective" organisation that may be able to call on as many as 18,000 potential operatives worldwide, a UK think-tank said yesterday.

In its annual strategic survey, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) says al-Qaeda's financial network has survived largely intact, and that the war in Iraq has brought new recruits to its ranks.


So there are a few Al Qaeda people dead or locked up, among much larger numbers of non-Al Qaeda people dead or locked up? Some training facilities in Afghanistan have been destroyed? It doesn't add up to much really. As the saying goes "Whatever doesn't killed me makes me stronger."

Bush has in effect been Al Qaeda's best friend. Of course they'll want him elected in November to keep up the good work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:09 AM

A bizarre sort of rhetorical analysis. Which party did all this nothing? The onl;y fair comparison between these nothings is prior to September 11. During which, neither party did anything. It may be a difficult argument, but Bush proceeded to war in the face of clear evidence he had no casus belli. If he really had an iota of disinclination to go to war, why did he motivate so hard to do so?

I thihnk there is no doubt he wanted war and wanted to be a war President.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:04 AM

Little Hawk- I agree with you 100% that all politicians (as well as doctors, lawyers, business leaders etc) lie.    They couldn't get elected if they told the truth.   Shame on us for allowing this to happen.   We get a "Jesse Ventura" type who actually tells us what he really believes, and we crucify him for not being politically correct.   Shame on all of us.    We settle for the politically correct canned polished speeches because thats what we elect.

My criticism is with those who only see one side of the issue.   Don't rip bush for lying while supporting Clinton and Moore who both lie as well.    Criticize the issue or document your claim with facts.   I am not interested in sound bites.   I write sound bites and I know the difference between reality and spin.

The argument that Bush (and conservatives) want war, and blood, and poison gas, and contaminated water may be the most stupid argument I have ever hread on this board.    Conservatives want the same basic things as liberals- the only difference is how we choose to get there.   You lose your credibility when you hyperbolize like that.

Finally, who does Al Queda want to win?   Lets see.   We have one party that did nothing for 8 years and let him assume power.   There is the other party that has gone to war against him. boy that is a tough choice to figure out who they want to win.


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