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BS: Lies, Lies, Lies

Ebbie 23 May 04 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 23 May 04 - 07:58 PM
Bobert 23 May 04 - 08:09 PM
Alaska Mike 23 May 04 - 08:20 PM
Ebbie 23 May 04 - 08:29 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 23 May 04 - 08:45 PM
Bobert 23 May 04 - 08:57 PM
katlaughing 23 May 04 - 10:45 PM
Peace 23 May 04 - 11:24 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 23 May 04 - 11:51 PM
Ebbie 24 May 04 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 24 May 04 - 12:29 AM
Ebbie 24 May 04 - 01:03 AM
Georgiansilver 24 May 04 - 05:47 AM
Bobert 24 May 04 - 08:45 AM
Greg F. 24 May 04 - 09:06 AM
Midchuck 24 May 04 - 09:35 AM
Amos 24 May 04 - 09:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 10:34 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 May 04 - 02:03 PM
Peace 24 May 04 - 06:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 06:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 07:37 PM
GUEST 24 May 04 - 07:44 PM
S O P 24 May 04 - 08:16 PM
Peace 24 May 04 - 08:26 PM
Amos 24 May 04 - 08:50 PM
Metchosin 24 May 04 - 10:05 PM
Bobert 24 May 04 - 11:14 PM
flattop 24 May 04 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 May 04 - 12:47 AM
Amos 25 May 04 - 12:59 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 May 04 - 03:23 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 04:52 AM
GUEST 25 May 04 - 05:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 06:46 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 07:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,TIA 25 May 04 - 11:52 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,TIA 25 May 04 - 12:25 PM
Amos 25 May 04 - 12:36 PM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 12:50 PM
Amos 25 May 04 - 01:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 May 04 - 06:13 PM
dianavan 25 May 04 - 08:47 PM
Ebbie 25 May 04 - 09:11 PM
Little Hawk 25 May 04 - 09:19 PM
Bobert 25 May 04 - 09:32 PM
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Subject: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:18 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack_5

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent. "

Damn them. Damn them. Damn them. We can't believe a damn one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:58 PM

"...a handful of women — perhaps four to six — were caught up in the engagement.
They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft."

I guess it's OK then.
I can undserstand the soldiers on the ground becoming desensitised, but it seems the entire administration has become so too, so much so that they expect it of us as well.
The above statement is intended as some sort of mitigating crcumstance.
It strikes me as more of an admission of hopeless and despairing loss of purpose.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:09 PM

I'm beginning to know just how a lot of Germans felt in the late 30's. When I look at Donald Rumsfeld, all I see ia a Nazi. He looks like a Nazi. He talks like a Nazi. I saw a picture of him in the paper this week in Iraq with his suit and tan botts and thought to myself... "Hey, this guy is a Nazi."

And I am very angry that such a small minority of very radical thinking people have somehow pulled off a coup, stolen our country and brainwashed so many folks into thinking colonialism and imperialism is patriotic...

Shame on America... shame...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:20 PM

Bush and his cronies have to lie, Ebbie. If they admitted to the truth, even their conservative supporters would call for their impeachment. These crooks have no use for the truth. I don't think they ever have or ever will. It will get even worse if the lying bastards win in November.

They are holding back now so as not to awaken their brainwashed followers before the election. If they do win you can expect bigger deficits, more tax breaks for the rich, a manditory draft, escalation of the Iraq war, further deterioration of our environment, higher interest rates, higher jobless numbers, and a continuation of the fear mongering that has marked this administration since it began.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:29 PM

But what can we do? I'd like to storm the streets before the nation's Capitol.

What I truly, truly want is for the bush, et al, to go down this fall in total overwhelming defeat. I want them to have to slink away in the dead of night because they don't dare show their faces. I want them to know fear, deadly fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:45 PM

Truly we are not privy to the inner workings of the administration---nor Bill Clinton's.   Given, however, reportage by those not "embedded" and books by those few who have accessed the White House (Woodward,Clarke,etc;) one has to conclude that this is not a presidencyt anymore---this is a secretive assumption of a "throne". Worst--by someone who, I believe, does not really understand the ramififations of what he has allowed his underlings---read VP--create.

Can you believe that any Pres. of memory needs his VP to accompany him to a hearing, needs his VP to help formulate policy, and after 9-11 listens to his advice rather than leading. Can you picture FDR, HST, LBJ---and even RR. You know---I don't think that even Nixon did not control a situation to a point. ( I speak only of recent memory here) in such a situation?   

I have not yet seen the new Moore film---but the descriptions of this Pres behaviour boggle the mind---and,as the critics say, it Moore's best and low key work yet.   


Not an endorsement of the film. Merely a statement regarding the ineptitude of our dear old Dubya.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:57 PM

Ebbie, Ebbie, Ebbie...

First of all, you are doing a lot by speaking your mind here. There are folks, believe it or not, here at Catbox who aren't decided. Okay, very few. But some...

Next, write letters to your local paper. You don't have to say you are Democrat or anything. Just poke holes in Bush's policies.

Write your congresspeople on issues where Bush is weak... Lots all of them... Stick to issues. Poke more holes.

Send money to John Kerry. I haven't but will even though I may not be able to hold my nose hard enough to vote for him. At least if I vote for Nadar, I will know that I at least sent 25 bucks to the Dems...

Put bumber stickers on your car that are either anti-Bush, pro-peace 'er pro Kerry. Please don't put an "Anybody But Bush" sticker. It is insulting and counterproductive...

Lastly, get to work in the campaign. Yoy are just one phone call away from gettin' involved. Campaigns need volunteers to knock on doors and work phones and I promise that you will meeet some really cool folks workin' in a campaign.... I still have friends to this very day who I knocked on doors with for Bobby Kennedy back in '68...

So there's a few things you can do to make a difference...

Have at it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:45 PM

Send money to Kerry, yes, but also urge everyone to go see Michael Moore's movie, Farenheit 9/11, as soon as it gets distributed. A lot of people around the world have high hopes it will be the shrub's undoing.

Also, moveon.org needs donations of any amount to help with their voter registration (pdf file) efforts. What they have been accomplishing with grassroots participation is downright inspiring.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:24 PM

At present, I can think of no greater calamity for American citizens or people of this world than another four years of Bush and his crew. The Neocon agenda is clear when one reads the policy positions of Wolfowitz. (Google   wolfowitz, policy   and take your pick.) I hope Americans are smart enough to see what's happening to their country, and as a result, our world. Truly, I hope.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:51 PM

Rumsfeld is off his rocker - now he wants to ban all cameras from US forces in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:01 AM

Sometimes lately I get very depressed about this. By nature I think I'm fairly upbeat in most things that I do but this one has me fried.

I do most of the things already that you listed, bobert. I don't own a car so I can't do bumper stickers, and I live in a state-owned house museum (non-partisan) so I can't put things in the windows or on the lawns. But I send money to several organizations (TruthOut; DCN; MoveOn; the John Kerry campaign; I write letters and I talk. I wear a button, and that has led to some interesting conversations. I haven't volunteered yet to do phone calls- I'll call around and see who is in charge of that.

Thanks, y'all. Getting down doesn't help, I know. I can't say that I'm cynical; I do have hope. I feel that this gang can be gotten out if we can get the word out so that then we can get people in who fit the standards of normal government. The ones we have now (every single damn one) made absolutely sure they wouldn't have to go to war when it was their turn, but they are cavalier and uncaring about sending others. Revealing that when it comes to prisoners of war they have no concept of law or decency is just over the top.

Here's one view:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/052404C.shtml

"I believe we are absolutely on the brink of failure," retired Marine Gen. Joseph P. Hoar, a former commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. "We are looking into the abyss. We cannot start soon enough to begin the turnaround."

What in the world is the matter with some Americans? Knee jerk neocons who decide ahead of time that they will believe everything that their leader says and support everything he does aren't worth - never mind. God, I'm glad I'm not married.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:29 AM

Ebbie,
It's a depressing situation. Anyone with half a brain and half an ounce of compassion is depressed about it. Worry about the situation by all means but don't worry about it depressing you, it's natural.
It shows you're still human when so many around you are becomming less and less so.

As for being cynical, once again, a healthy dose of cynicism keeps you sane.

As for being married, I don't really see what's wrong with that.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:03 AM

:) John, I do get carried away, I guess. I was thinking of being married or close to someone who is a knee JERK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:47 AM

With all Politicians it seems "All's fair in love, war and Politics". Which of them does not tell lies in some way???. They start by winning your popularity with promises of a better future and end up lying about the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:45 AM

Yeah, all politicans do lie but most don't lie to get their fellow citizens to to die in a war of *choice* (see brucie's suggestion to check out Wolfowitz)...

And John hit the nail on the head with his "half a brain" observation. If one looks around and compared America intellecrually now verses 20 years ago one will see a disturbing trend going on. Anerica is being dumbed down at a scarey pace. We have way too many trained people, who don't ask "why" and not enough educated folks who do ask "why"...

When I moved from Richmond, Va. to Harpers Ferry, WV (Wsahington DC area) some 19 years ago it was rare to see an article about NASCAR in the "Washington Post" sports section. Now, there's something just about every day... Hmmmm? Not too intellectual, IMHO...

But hang in there, Ebbie... Keep at it... We haven't lost America quite yet. There's still some chance that we can pull it out of this tail spin...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:06 AM

I hope Americans are smart enough to see what's happening to their country, and as a result, our world.

I sympathize, but its a forlorn hope. Most U.S. voters don't give a rats ass about the rest of the world as long as they can keep driving their SUV's and watching "reality"[sic] TV. Check the percentage that still enthisiastically support this gang of criminals and STILL believe Eye- Rack was responsible for Sept. 11, and all the rest of the patently bogus neo-con/neo-fascist/neo-imperialist propaganda.

You cannot reach a reasoned accommodation with the brain dead.

Prepare for Four More Years, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:35 AM

I would like to disagree with Greg F.

Trouble is, I can't.

I do think, though, that if the price of gasoline - and diesel, and jet fuel, and heating oil - keeps going up, there will be a truly severe recession, possibly amounting to a depression, in this country. We're too dependant on cheap transportation for any other result. And the number of people with massive unsecured credit card debt will all stop paying at once, and the banking system could be in real trouble. If this happens before November, the present administration is bound to be in real trouble. The people will want blood.

I'm not sure even getting rid of Bush would be worth the suffering involved, though.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:56 AM

Midchuck:

For once, a doomsday scenario that I can see happening -- allowing for the natural slop in the "all stop paying at once" expression.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Remember "Chemical Ali" who was still going on about Saddam's overwhelming victory as the US tanks rolled into Baghdad?

He's got a natural successor in that Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, hasn't he?   When you are up for teling a lie, lay it on thick, and ignore any evidence that shows you are lying:

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration."

Which, as the video evidence and the reports sent back by Associated Press and other journalists on the spot, is a direct and demonstrable lie:

An Associated Press reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many on the wedding party video - which runs for several hours.

APTN also travelled to Makr el-Deeb the day after the attack to film what the survivors said was the wedding site. A devastated building and remnants of the tent, pots and pans could be seen...


I'm sure Kimmitt is not stupid enough to think anyone listening to him believes him - but the quotes are there to be used to muddy the waters in the sound-bite media that's supposed to pacify people back home who follow Rumsfeld's advice, and don't read papers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:03 PM

I think that was the comical Ali, McG, rather than the chemical one, but good points.

The admin seems to be making much of the fact that where the video was filmed has not been authenticated. Yet it features musicians from Baghdad, and youngsters related to the marriage couple. Given that the musicians and the youngsters were all killed in the US assault, what other explanation could there be for how this video was made? Even without the video I had found the eye=witness accounts compelling, as all the journos I've seen reporting from the debris obviously did too.

I must admit I had thought MArk Kimmitt was a decent sort, but he has demeaned himself pedalling so blatant a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:11 PM

Won't take but 5% of them what voted for Bush to vote for someone else, and maybe Kerry gets in. (I haven't done the math--there are so many smart people here that one of them will do it anyway.) Ya figure?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:18 PM

Right there - Chemical Ali was Saddam's cousin, linked to the Halabja gas massacre. Comical Ali was a much less unsavoury character, just doing his job as a press spokesman, which was to lie through his teeth when his bosses required. Like Kimmitt, in that respect.
................
How's this for struggling on the hook?: "We still don't believe that there was a wedding or a wedding party going on when we hit in the early hours of the morning," a senior military official said, adding that daylight scenes on film might be of a wedding held there the day before, reports Reuters.

That's taken from the Muslim American Society website report todayVideo of Iraq Wedding Party Released With a picture to break your heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:37 PM

"I had thought Mark Kimmitt was a decent sort."

How about this quote from him in yesterday's press briefing: "One could say, yes, it is true that out in the desert you need to have a rifle to protect yourself against Ali Baba..." I grant you he doesn't appear top have called them "ragheads", but...<


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:44 PM

Maybe he was having another of his fainting spells


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Subject: A Fair Solution According To You?
From: S O P
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:16 PM

Why don't you guys form a club, get yourselves some tickets, go over to Iraq and plug for the restoration of Saddam Hussein and as many of the playing cards as you can find alive and reconstitute a superior government, according to your best sense of outraged justice.

Just a thought...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:26 PM

Wrong question, S O P. It is already supposed to be straightened out in Iraq. It ain't. The replacement of one dictatorial bastard with another dictatorial bastard isn't what was supposed to happen. No one has even hinted that Hussein should be restored. Until you, that is. The thread is about lies told to the American people by their government and its representatives in a war zone. Some Americans object. If I were American, I would object with them.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:50 PM

May 12, 2004   (letter to the editor, as appeared in the Boston Globe)

THE BUSH administration seems to have a serious problem with reality. The most recent reality challenge is the policy of torture in both Iraq and Afghanistan, which the administration is frantically redefining as "abuse," "excesses," and "humiliation." We even have Secretary Rumsfeld describing footage of several American soldiers "having sex" with a female Iraqi prisoner. Let's have a little plain English here. "Having sex" with a prisoner is known as "rape." Systematic beatings are called "torture." Excesses that lead to death are called "murder." The hundreds of women and children in mass graves in Fallujah are the product of a "massacre." Taken together, all of these add up to "atrocities."

The dissemination of "incomplete information" from "imperfect intelligence" is called "lies." The billions of dollars that Halliburton and Bechtel have reaped in profits are called "war profiteering." The invasion of Iraq is called "illegal." The destruction of America's international standing is called "permanent." And Texaco/Phillips's high bid for Iraqi oil is called "why we are in Iraq."

ERICA VERRILLO Williamsburg


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:05 PM

thank you Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:14 PM

Well written letter. Thanks fir sharing it, Amos...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: flattop
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:29 PM

No egg salad sandwiches with the crusts cut off - no empty vodka bottles or broken wine glasses amongst the corpses - no torn copies of Modern Bride or giftwrapped toaster ovens - how could this be a proper wedding?

I doubt that these spokesmen believe what they are saying themselves, let alone expect others to believe. What most people on all sides of the circle can now agree on is that the poop is in the pudding. No one really knows what to do about it but it might be a starting point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:47 AM

Bob Herbert pretty well summed up my feelings in the last paragraph of his editorial in the NY Times today:

"There's a terrible sense of dread filtering across America at the moment and it's not simply because of the continuing fear of terrorism and the fact that the nation is at war. It's more frightening than that. It grows out of the suspicion that we all may be passengers in a vehicle that has made a radically wrong turn and is barreling along a dark road, with its headlights off and with someone behind the wheel who may not know how to drive."

Those arrogant swine are destroying my country on every level.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:59 AM

Jeeze, I wonder where his head has been for th elast few years? I am happy to give him credit documenting this so-called "growing sense of dread" but a lot of us have felt nothing else since November, 2000. From my perspective it has taken a lot of people a loooong time to wake up some.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:23 AM

Yes, Amos, and it seems those fearless statesmen leading our are as easily duped as the most ignorant mouth-breathing Limbaugh followers.

After 9/11 the local paper asked its readers if their patriotism had changed. Kind of an odd question, I thought. But I wrote that my patriotism consisted of a loyalty to the land itself, and to the principles set out in the Constitution (rather than the people in the government) and it hadn't changed any.

Then in the second paragraph I said something to the effect that I hoped a misguided patriotism wouldn't lead us into excesses like the internment of the Japanese in WWII.

I didn't even say anything about My Lai, but the paper cut that paragraph out. Actually, I was surprised they kept the first paragraph, because it was a my-country-right-or-wrong-follow-our-leader time then. You remember.

But if a retired hack artist could see that much why couldn't the people in congress see even more? They're professionals.

Of course, I've heard that professional con men are easily conned.

clint

--Anyway, like I said, that image of speeding on a bad road with a useless driver described my feelings well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:52 AM

Reading through this thread I reach the conclusion that some of you are absolutely priceless.

So the problems of the world (at least as much of the world as you guys see it) is all down to the last four years and the personal responsibility of one man and his administration. That of course, as a contention is patently ridiculous.

Come November you all toddle off to vote, now say you get your oft-stated hearts desire and you end up next January with a new President. What do you think is going to change? I think you will find by 2008 - it will be very little. Things in life do not happen like somebody turning on a switch, they take time. If you want your recession/depression, then by all means follow the Kerry plan to full employment. You want the world to love you - that would be completely new - apart from a few old friends who have realised, and appreciated, what America has contributed to democracy and freedom in this world - the rest of the world has never loved America, envied yes, and in that envy is the realisation that they cannot achieve the same, so the next best thing is to try and destroy it.

From McGrath of Harlow's post above (24 May 04 - 06:18 PM)

"Comical Ali was a much less unsavoury character, just doing his job as a press spokesman, which was to lie through his teeth when his bosses required. Like Kimmitt, in that respect."

I would replace the last sentence to read:

"Like The Daily Mirror's correspondent with his photographs, in that respect."

Reading through the article that Kevin linked to, it is obvious that inconsistencies do exist and they all have to be sorted out. Doesn't suit the knee-jerk reactions of most of you, I know, but that would be the more rational course to take.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:13 AM

Why replace it? Kimmitts statements have yet to be shown to be true!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 06:46 AM

There are indeed inconsistencies between the things Kimmitt has said and what the video evidence shows, and they need to be sorted out.

Since the US military are the people in the dock on this, so to speak, it is open to question whether they can be trusted to do the sorting out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 07:32 AM

Alternatively GUEST, 25 May 04 - 05:13 AM

Kimmitts statements have yet to be shown to be false!

MGOH's statements indicate that he firmly believes that the US Military are lying - mind you he did make the same assertions regarding the Mirror photographs, but has not bothered to come back up on the relevant thread to acknowledge the fact that those photographs were fake as many contended at the time of them being published.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:05 AM

"...he did make the same assertions regarding the Mirror photographs, " I don't think I did actually.

I think the only time I even mentioned those photographs was in a post where I said: "I note that the people involved have been sure to try to stay unidentifiable - in contrast to the US version. (That could seem to suggest that the US lot were assuming that what they were up to was OK with the authorities, but the British weren't. But there could be other reasons for that difference.)"

"Other reasons" intentionally indicated an element of doubt on my part about the authenticity of the photos - as I seem to remember Teribus picked up in a subsequent post.

True enough, I do believe that in this case the US military are trying to mislead, and to cover up for a bad mistake. One reason for this is that in a similar incident in Afghanistan when a wedding party was simlarly attacked with even higher massive loss of life (54 killed, 120 wounded), the military authorities persisted in trying to deny what had been done, in face of the evidence. According to recent mainstream media reports, there has still been no apology for that incident.

This link contains a summary of that episode -Accountability Ignored in Kakrak Errant Bombing. There are quotes from the military in the report, dated July 11th 2002, which are essentially similar to what Kimmitt has been saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:52 AM

"Things in life do not happen like somebody turning on a switch, they take time...You want the world to love you - that would be completely new - apart from a few old friends who have realised, and appreciated, what America has contributed to democracy and freedom in this world - the rest of the world has never loved America"

In the world I inhabit, JUST like turning on a switch, it took GWB less than 18 months to alter world opinion from post-911 overwhelming sympathy and support to overwhelming disgust and dismay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:16 PM

Thanks for pointing that out to me Guest TIA. So, all that overwhelming disgust and dismay, is why intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs, world-wide, are enjoying the unprecedented degree and level of co-operation they are experiencing today. Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:25 PM

You just danced over to a new point. Your previous post should apparently have read:

"You want the world to love you - that would be completely new - apart from a few old friends {and intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs} who have realised, and appreciated, what America has contributed to democracy and freedom in this world - the rest of the world {except for the intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs} has never loved America."


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:36 PM

So, all that overwhelming disgust and dismay, is why intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs, world-wide, are enjoying the unprecedented degree and level of co-operation they are experiencing today. Interesting.

I have talked to a few of the people who have provided these unprecedented levels of cooperation. And in the cases I have spoken to the reason for the unprecedented levels of cooperation is unprecedented levels of (often invasive) demand, plus high levels of intimidation.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:50 PM

Nice one Amos, but it doesn't wash, the process, as you should know, is a two way street - that doesn't happen with "invasive" demands or intimidation.

Doesn't really happen relying on overwhelming disgust or dismay either


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:01 PM

I guess it's my turn to go "Huh?", T. Describe this 2-way street for me, would you? When I fly for example, all the initiative and all the control is in the hands of the gorillas hired to do the Rodina Security bit, and my contribution is limited to being inconvenienced and bullied and biting my tongue.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:12 PM

I'm not clear whether Teribus is saying (a)that the fact that agencies in various countries may be cooperating more because they want to avoid bombings and so forth disproves that there is great deal of "overwhelming disgust or dismay" towards "America"; or (b) - in the light of this cooperation, it doesn't matter whether there is a growth in "overwhelming disgust or dismay" towards "America".

Is it a matter of "Nobody likes us, everybody hates us - we don't care", as the Millwall fans put it?

The thing is, there isn't just one "America" - the very people who feel most passionate dislike of all that the current Bush administration stands for are often the same people who feel most strongly in sympathy and solidarity with the other America that this administration so evidently detests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 May 04 - 06:13 PM

"So the problems of the world (at least as much of the world as you guys see it) is all down to the last four years and the personal responsibility of one man and his administration. That of course, as a contention is patently ridiculous."

That's your patently ridiculous contention, Teribus, not mine. I contend that the US & much of the world is worse off than it was before Bush took office,and much of that is due to Bush and his merry men.

Setting up a straw man is not a tool of reason or logic; it's a tool of propaganda.

Your statement is not priceless, it's worthless.

Except as a bullying tactic.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:47 PM

I'm going to get really generally in this post regarding outside perceptions of the U.S.

Prior to 911, the U.S. was the envy of many. This envy could, at times, turn to jealousy and even mild hostility toward those who had so much but basically it was still the land of opportunity. After 911, the world symapthized with all of those who had lost loved ones and the brave people of New York.

Now, the world is dismayed and disgusted. Not only does most of the world see Bush as an evil occupier, they pity Americans for their loss of freedom and apparent helplessness. The U.S. is no longer a nation to be emulated. The U.S. is loathed and feared.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:11 PM

Ha! Your mother wears combat boots.




:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:19 PM

I think the most notable emotion stirred up in the World by the USA, teribus, is not envy, but fear (and also hatred, in many cases). I am Canadian, and I certainly do not envy the USA nor have I ever envied the USA...and I lived there for 10 years. I pity the USA sometimes, though, because of its cultural blindness.

My above remarks are not directed at individual American citizens, but at the collective power system and the plutocrats who rule over them and who control the media and most of the money.

I do not envy the atomic missiles, the stealth bombers or the B-52 squadrons. I do not envy the high crime rate and the huge prison population. I do not envy the fast food empires. I do not envy the delusions of Hollywood and the reality TV shows. I do not envy the corporate-sponsored phony two party system that actually offers American voters almost no real choice at all. I do not envy the ability to harangue a confused population into supporting naked aggression. I do not envy excess, irresponsibility, hypocrisy, and corporate insanity posturing as "liberty and justice for all".

Just because the USA once fought someone worse than themselves (the Nazis and Imperial Japan) does not for all time place the USA at the right hand of God wielding the sword of eternal justice...nor should it obscure the fact that the USA has itself frequently launched unjustified, opportunistic military actions against small countries, and is presently doing precisely that in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:32 PM

Well, T-Bird, I really haven't had a lot of time to knock heads but, what the hey...

Yeah, the world has had lots of problems for a long, long time and, no, they didn't all come about in the last 4 years. However, my friend...

... just consider the the following hypothesis:

Whereas George Bush didn't create many of the problems he has confronted, he has been *too* decisive and *too* deliberate in trying to find solutions. He is not a *thoughtful* person by nature and this is not what is needed for the president of the world's only super power. He gives in too easily to those who are not capable of seeing anything as either balck or white... Well most of the problems are mired in grayness and thus not problems that a "black-n-white" thinker can solve. We see this in just about evert policy area Bush tends to take *extreme* positions rather than positions where *compromise* has been an important element of the policy decision.

Now I don't blame Bush entirely fir his failures though he gets a good share of the blame. But he is also a victim of a failing political system that has evolved into a system of polorization, intolerance and gridlock... Could he change it? Well, maybe and maybe not. But after seeing just how damaging a winner-take-all mentality is to the US and the world in general, it needs changing.

One thing I can credit Bush for doing. During his campaign he said that if he were elected he would change the *tone* in Washington. He has done that. The last time is was so bad was during the McCarthy days... And that's pushing 50 years...

Bobert


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