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BS: Mind and Body and ...

Amos 06 Oct 06 - 11:24 AM
GUEST 06 Oct 06 - 01:45 AM
Wolfgang 05 Oct 06 - 07:50 AM
Wolfgang 05 Oct 06 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 14 Apr 04 - 05:27 PM
Little Hawk 14 Apr 04 - 05:12 PM
Amos 14 Apr 04 - 04:41 PM
Wolfgang 14 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM
Little Hawk 14 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM
Amos 14 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM
Wolfgang 14 Apr 04 - 02:34 PM
Amos 14 Apr 04 - 02:18 PM
Chief Chaos 14 Apr 04 - 02:05 PM
Wolfgang 14 Apr 04 - 01:42 PM
Amos 14 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM
Little Hawk 14 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM
Amos 14 Apr 04 - 12:31 AM
Bobert 13 Apr 04 - 11:54 PM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 04 - 08:22 PM
Amos 13 Apr 04 - 08:01 PM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 07:00 PM
Metchosin 13 Apr 04 - 06:48 PM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM
Amos 13 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM
Amos 13 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 12:20 PM
Uncle_DaveO 13 Apr 04 - 12:16 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 11:43 AM
Amos 13 Apr 04 - 11:41 AM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM
Pied Piper 13 Apr 04 - 11:24 AM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 11:21 AM
GUEST 13 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 04 - 11:07 AM
Ellenpoly 13 Apr 04 - 11:02 AM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 10:55 AM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM
Amos 13 Apr 04 - 10:11 AM
dianavan 13 Apr 04 - 10:08 AM
wysiwyg 13 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM
Bill D 13 Apr 04 - 09:42 AM
flattop 13 Apr 04 - 12:17 AM
Little Hawk 12 Apr 04 - 05:15 PM
Amos 12 Apr 04 - 05:10 PM
Little Hawk 12 Apr 04 - 05:07 PM
Bill D 12 Apr 04 - 04:51 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 11:24 AM

"Death is no more than passing from one room into another. But there's a difference for me, you know. Because in that other room I shall be able to see." - Helen Keller




The article linked to abovew by Guest raises an interesting counterpoint to "it's all in your brain" explanation of OOBs. A person blinded at birth, destroyed optic nerves, finds herself OOB and drifting above the hospital room. Regardless of the metaphysics thereafter, this little contrast in perceptic abilityis dramatic and, as far as I can see, not explianed by internal neurological explanations.

I have maintained, whenever this sort of issue comes up, that the final leap between signal or network impulses and actual awareness and understanding is not explained by any neurological model, and I still think this is a major qualitative jump that current models just can't explain.

A

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:45 AM

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:50 AM

Out-of-body experience and autoscopy of neurological origin (Article abstract)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:37 AM

Out-of-Body Experience? Your Brain Is to Blame

A woman feels herself leaving her body and floating in space, looking down on her corporeal self.
Such experiences are often attributed by those who have them to paranormal forces.
But according to recent work by neuroscientists, they can be induced by delivering mild electric current to specific spots in the brain.


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:27 PM

Well, there's biofeedback. That seems generally accepted.

And there's stigmata, which seems documented.

"Laying on of hands" -- "Theraputic touch" --is scoffed at, but I think it's established that babies will die if they're not handled.

I've been told that some people will die if they have a spell cast on them if they know it.

Some vomit at the sight of something unpleasant.

According to my daughter the pharmacist, placebos will grow hair on bald spots, but not quite as good as Rogaine, and hair's not subjective.

Why doubt that mind can affect body? I thought the idea of mind as separate from body, as the "ghost in the machine" was obsolete these days.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:12 PM

Yeah. It's kind of like, you walk into your backyard or drive down your local road 189,998 times and see nothing unusual in the sky at all. That would seem to indicate that UFO's (read: alien vehicles) do not exist. Then you do it for the 189,999th time and you see a round, smooth, large, disk-shaped, silent, flying object that is not an animal, not a weather phenomenon, not an airplane, not a balloon, not anything you ever saw before....and you conclude that your previous belief that there were no UFO's (alien vehicles) was most probably erroneous.

To then quote another circumstance where a UFO did not appear is superfluous, and sheds no light on the matter whatsoever. It is the circumstance where one DID appear that merits further thought and investigation.

Such a circumstance will irittate someone who is convinced that there are no such alien vehicles and he will look hard for ways to discredit or disregard the report...or he will ridicule the reporter. This is one reason why many people are reluctant to even discuss their UFO sightings...fear of ridicule.

Just apply the same line of comment to any unusual subject...whether it be the mind-body connection, UFO's, hauntings, psychic healing, or anything else that isn't solidly physical and totally obvious.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:41 PM

Ah -- thanks, Wolfgang; my error.

In my own view a single instance of well documented psychological-based healing is what is colloquially called a white crow. It's existence, once proven, means that any paradigm which states that "all crows are black" must be revisited and adjusted.

I have no idea how many, of all the known cases of "placebo efffect" and "psychological healing" and whatever else the samer thing may be called, would be considered fairly well "controlled" from an evidentiary perspective. But it doesn't matter. A small number of cases still tells us there is something seriously missing from any paradigm of human 'architecture' if you will, that doesn't provide for the phenomenon in its model.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

Amos,
I think, the problem is the word 'continuous' in my too short post. 'Continuous outcome variables' (as opposed to binary) would have been much clearer. Examples: pulse, blood indicators, etc.

It seems to me you have understood that one outcome variable is measured continuously over time. I have meant that a variable that can take many values on a continuum is measured (once, or even more often).

If then, the effect size decreases with the sample size that is an indicator of a couple of possible artifacts inflating the real effect size. And that would also hold in the world of electrons, BTW.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

A disciplined and strongly directed mind can have tremendous effects on the body. An undisciplined mind (which describes the mind of most humans) has a great variety of minor effects on the body, both positive and negative. If the mind fluctuates a lot, the effects will fluctuate a lot, and they won't be very strong or lasting.

Faith as powerful as yours, Wolfgang, is proof against most forms of evidence, and will not bother seeking out those forms that don't meet its expectations.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

Sory to be unclear. Your proposition was that those experienced in methodology would recognize as a red flag if the size of the effect in continuous outcomes decreases with increasing sample size. Again this seems to me to be an illogical assumption when you are dealing with living rather than material populations. In living populations, continuous outcomes would be expected to change if the same population was used continuously, certainly, and possibly even if they were different members of the same pool, because of the feedback of repetition. ANd in conscious systems, I can certainly see where an increasing sample size might reduce the impact of the test conditions on the individual member of the population. Both of these are issues in how awarenss responds to experience, which is certainly very differently than dead particles do (if there is such a thing).

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:34 PM

Why on earth, in a system as complex and full of interdependencies and multi-valued variables as the human organism, would you want to test it on binary results?

Because it sometimes makes sense. Instance: Given up smoking or not.

I do not understand your second point at all, Amos. Or better, I understand what you mean, but I have no idea in which way that point is related to my sentence.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:18 PM

CC:

I meant to type knickers, but every time I approach the subject I get incoherent! :>))

Wolfgang:

"placebo had no significant effect on binary outcomes"

Why on earth, in a system as complex and full of interdependencies and multi-valued variables as the human organism, would you want to test it on binary results? That strikes me as inappropriate completely.

the size of the effect in continuous outcomes decreases with increasing sample size (that's a warning sign for anyone with a bit of methodological knowledge)

I would submit this holds true only if you believer in treating thinking, feeling and imagining organisms with the same dullness as you would a batch of molecules of sodium or transistor switches.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:05 PM

Amos - "I am quite happy not knowing, although it used to get my knockers in a twist."

I thought I knew you were male, but if they're big enough to get in a twist, your either female or you're using different slang than we do! {LOL}

I do know that you can effect your own body by being able to calm/excite yourself thus controlling the blood pressure, heart rhythm, adrenalin, etc. which can lead to beneficial affects including better blood flow and higher oxygenation of tissues at a wound site. How far this can be taken I don't know but I think it should be seriously studied, not just dismissed out of hand. I'm quite familiar with the shady side of the "faith healer" and such but there is a distinct possibility that there is at least a tool to be discovered and used here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:42 PM

Nice little article, but not very impressing. They had 10 patients per treatment group!! It is one of many well controlled studies about the placebo effect, but it is one of very few articles on placebo involving a surgical procedure.

As for the placebo effect, read a fairly new review of ranomised clinical trials studying the placebo effect, A. Hrobjartsson, C. Peter, M.D. Gotzsche, New England J. of Medicine, 2001, 344, pp. 1594-1602:

- "placebo had no significant effect on binary outcomes"
- the size of the effect in continuous outcomes decreases with increasing sample size (that's a warning sign for anyone with a bit of methodological knowledge)
- there was a mean significant difference for subjective outcome variabls ("how do you feel"), no significance across studies with objective measures
- a very good an impressive undisputed effect on treatment of pain.

Bottom line: It makes you feel good (which sometimes is no mean achievement). Or (re the thread title): The strongest effect the mind has is on the mind itself.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM

TOLERATION

Toleration is the best religion.

          Victor Hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM

Bill - Well, I think "he" is consciously and intimately aware of all...given that "she" is not separate from any of it, BUT that doesn't mean that "it" knows what's going to happen next, given the nature of all those individual free wills that are operating out there all the time.

If you get what I mean... :-)

After all, when someone, in a godlike manner, creates an entire fictional world (as in a good computer game, such as Age of Empires)...the whole thrill of the game is in not knowing what's going to happen next with the many mechanisms and variables contained in the game when you play it. There are probabilities, but you don't know for sure exactly what will happen. The game has certain rules and definite structures which don't change...just like our Universe, BUT the behaviour of the many little artificially created beings in the game can be infinitely variable...and that makes the game exciting, creative, and worthwhile to play.

I believe that's a pretty good description of not only a computer game, but our own Creation as we know it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:31 AM

Actually, Parkinson's is all in your CNS, but that may all be in your head too..the whole thing gets kinda chicken-eggy there at the end...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:54 PM

Ahhhh, like the Wes Ginny Slide Rule has pointed out, "Parkinson's is all in yer head"......

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM

I think you just told me God has a sense of humor, and likes to watch us make idiots of ourselves..*grin*...but I don't appreciate some of his more elaborate pranks.

It's true enough that knowing what's going to happen would spoil the game, but was that ever the issue except in the case of "God"? Some would INSIST that He knows all, and very strange theological debates arise from that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:22 PM

Yeah, I feel okay "knowing that there are things I can't know" too, Bill. It would be a complete drag to know everything, cos there'd be nothing left to wonder about. It would be awful, in fact.

I think that even "God" gets a kick out of not necessarily knowing what will happen next! That's why we sentient beings have free will, so that anything can happen, including things you didn't count on. That makes the game worth playing.

A game where you already know for sure exactly what's going to happen is no game at all, really. It's just not interesting.

The unknown is what spurs us on in life, in romance as well as in other things.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:01 PM

Important distinction, I agree. I am quite happy not knowing, although it used to get my knockers in a twist. But that is not the same as settling on it as the only possible path.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:00 PM

Rumsfeld should revive the "Know-Nothing" party. I even agree with him, although it is not exactly a profound thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:48 PM

But.....

"As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know."
         -Rumsfeld


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM

hmmmm...small but important difference, Amos! I do empathize a bit, and I do wish I could know more, but if I started getting upset at NOT knowing, I might start inventing answers. I really am comfortable with not knowing in some areas.....in others, I want to know it ALL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM

I am more comfortable "knowing that there are things I can't know"

You put your finger on the big one, pal.

I am not only not more comfortable, I am downright uncomfortable with the notion that there are such things.

There are plenty of things I do not know, and some that I won't know this lifetime. But as for things I can't? Well, naaaaah.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM

of course I get that distinction, LH..., and you may be surpised to know that I respect the 2nd group more! I do not 'trivialize' such experiences....nothing that a person experiences that strongly is 'trivial', I merely question the ultimate causality. As I said, I use the word 'know' in relation to love, and I mean something very strong by it....and....it does not bother me at all to be aware that my usage is emotional and poetic rather than objective and absolute.

I can sing gospel hymns, read poetry about spirit and nature, contemplate the 'essence' of friends who have died, or reflect on my 'inner self', and still understand that I am doing metaphorical exercises. It does not affect the quality of the experience, but it DOES affect how I relate to the possible implications of the experience!
(well...maybe it DOES limit some depths to the experience, if I operate 'as if' it were all metaphorical, but for what it's worth, I am more comfortable "knowing that there are things I can't know".)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

The range of perception that goes beyond the material also goes beyond the agreed-upon to a large degree, so looking for mutually-held reality about it is kind of a contradiction, like looking for proof that one person feel love for another. In this sense you could argue that the material universe is essentially an average of agreed-upon illusions; it's commonality is what makes it so atteactive and persistant. But the range of things that one sees in one's imagination, for example, is infinitely greater, and completely unproveable in physical terms. Is your imagination unreal? Only if you define reality as purely material. But imagination is the source of every major positive change in human history -- the ability to perceive something as it could be. Yet it has no "place" and certainly no "proof".

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM

Well, like I said, Bill, it's an excercise in futility to try to prove something that is an inner experience (meaning that it is something you subjectively "feel"), but we all have such experiences and we know that for us they are real.

Do you get the distinction between someone who believes in "God" merely because they were brought up to by their social group, and told to by their parents, priest, etc...and someone who has an actual religious experience that happens inside them quite spontaneously?

This would be comparable to, in the first case, someone who has simply been told about "love" by other people and, in the second case, someone who actually falls in love with another real person and experiences the feelings that ensue. The former is a hollow experience. The latter is not.

To trivialize a real, powerful subjective experience of another human being merely because YOU have not had that experience yourself is a bit high-handed.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:20 PM

I'm sorry LH, but if knowing means nothing more than deep, confident feelings that you hold so firmly that you don't...or emotionally can't, question them, then it becomes a hollow, though personally meaningful, concept.

What do you say to people who KNOW that G.W. Bush and the Republican party are the best thing for America? Delusions come in varied formats and strengths.

I'm sure that you are using (or trying to use) the term differently than I am poking at, but so many of these discussions hinge on whether we can have a single, objective, non-ambiguous use of words like 'knowlege' or 'reality'....or 'folk'...*grin*


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:16 PM

What mankind needs from Science is a more powerful placebo!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM

Okay, Bill, it's just like that. You KNOW it when you love someone. No one can provide empirical proof of the reality of that, only circumstantial and experiential evidence, but you KNOW it.

That's what it's like when you attain spiritual knowledge. To try to prove it to anyone else is an exercise in futility, and it doesn't matter anyway. They have a perfect right to believe whatever they choose to. That's their path of learning, and is suitable to them.

It's LOVE. Powerful love. Pure and simple and totally obvious to the one who experiences it. No one can prove or disprove the existence of God, but they CAN experience the love of God...and for God. And they can do it without belonging to any organized religion or sect or dogma. A squirrel can do it at sunrise or in one quiet moment while lying on a branch. I've seen them do it. People have the most difficulty doing it of all, because their busy little minds won't stop talking. They only time they shut up is when they sleep.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:43 AM

Yes, indeed, Little Hawk...and I too use the word 'know' in such contexts, but I know that I use it to represent a much more awkward and less romantic locution, such as "I am ever so supremely confident in my appreciation of your abiding affection for me, my dear"


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:41 AM

Geeze, PP. You're gonna believe all crows are black, even if some are shown to be white. So let's see -- as few proven cases of what you slightingly call "placebo effect" exist. But the _general_ rule seems to be that thought cannot influence healing? Staistically, miracles cannot exist, and therefopr enone have?

Here's what happened: some folks healed themselves of a medically present serious systemic condition.

Here's what it proves: there is a pathway out.

That's mighty fine, in my book.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM

Well, put it this way, Bill...have you ever truly loved someone? Answer me that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:24 AM

I have no problem incorporating this study in my view of the world; I already new about the placebo effect so there is not much new here.
To me the important bit is.
"Although patient perceptions influenced their test scores, when the total sample of patients was grouped by the actual operation they received, patients who had the actual transplant surgery showed improvement in movement while, on average, patients who had sham surgery did not."
Or did you not notice that?

PP


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:21 AM

"At the deepest level belief becomes not belief but knowledge stubbornness or recalcitrance or obstinacy or inflexibility or....."


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:07 AM

Yes, some need a "healer" or an intermediary to awaken necessary faith to do the healing. Some can do it all by themselves. Others can't do it at all. It all depends on what they believe and at how deep a level they believe it. At the deepest level belief becomes not belief but knowledge. You don't believe it anymore, you KNOW it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:02 AM

The body/mind connection is something I've written about (in a play for children) because I think it's so important for us to understand from as young an age as possible, that we have an incredibly powerful brain at our disposal, and with a little help and exercise, can use it towards pretty amazing ends.

When my dear friend and partner became ill, I watched him try to apply creative visualization to his cancer, but I think his own limitations in terms of what he thought was possible got in the way of his really being able to go beyond those barriers he had erected with signs reading "mind doesn't control body". Do I think it's possible that he could have slowed down the cancer? Possibly, but only if he had more faith in the power of his brain...

Just a thought I had from reading your post, Amos, and others..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:55 AM

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
Arthur C. Clarke

There was a quotation that I have lost origin of, but paraphrased it said.."One of the important uses of Philosophy is the rescuing of obvious truths from the neglect caused by their universal acceptance"

Replace 'Philosophy' with 'scholarship', and that thesis looks a bit more useful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM

Actually, nothing is supernatural. "Supernatural" is a word people use to describe a natural process that is so unusual to them that they can find no way to explain it. Thus, an electric lightbulb or an airplane were once considered supernatural by natives in New Guinea, and a faith healing that works is considered supernatural by an accountant in Schenectady. :-)

Everything is natural.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:11 AM

Bill:

There some loose language flying around in that thesis, but if I am correct in understanding the abstract they want to demonstrate that (a)psychosomatic healing exists and (b) it is not supernatural. Well, obviously.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:08 AM

I believe it because I used visualization to overcome cancer. I won't bore you with the details but it involved alot of concentration for a period of about a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

Some people like bodhrans and some NASCAR.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:42 AM

well! I went searching and discovered a Doctoral thesis on the subject of mind/body healing! It must be a good one, because it agrees with ME!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: flattop
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:17 AM

Other studies show that we can create body chemicals similar to morphine. People highly susceptible to placebo can ignore pain, but feel it when opiate blockers are injected into them.

Also, Count Alfred Korzibski pointed out that logic has to fit emotionally before we accept it, that we say that we understand but it doesn't feel right. I feel that is related but I can't explain it until I've had sleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:15 PM

*snicker!*


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:10 PM

The paltry last gasp of a mechanist, using his flickering paranormal powers to issue one faint imitation of a physical sound caused by mass under gravity!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:07 PM

Yes...mysterious, isn't it? :-) Maybe he wasn't as soulless as he imagined. A sort of poltergeist last word on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mind and Body and ...
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:51 PM

me, I wonder how he typed the *thump*


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Mudcat time: 5 August 4:35 AM EDT

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