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BS: a new punctuation mark

Clean Supper 10 Mar 04 - 06:20 AM
freda underhill 10 Mar 04 - 06:48 AM
John MacKenzie 10 Mar 04 - 06:57 AM
catspaw49 10 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM
freda underhill 10 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Mar 04 - 07:33 AM
C-flat 10 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM
Uncle_DaveO 10 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM
Rapparee 10 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM
Amos 10 Mar 04 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,MMario 10 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,leeneia 10 Mar 04 - 10:04 AM
JennyO 10 Mar 04 - 10:19 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Mar 04 - 10:31 AM
katlaughing 10 Mar 04 - 10:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,brucie 10 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM
the lemonade lady 10 Mar 04 - 11:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Mar 04 - 11:39 AM
Blackcatter 10 Mar 04 - 11:43 AM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 11:51 AM
Allan C. 10 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Mar 04 - 01:55 PM
Chief Chaos 10 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM
Rapparee 10 Mar 04 - 02:09 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM
Mr Red 10 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM
freda underhill 10 Mar 04 - 02:48 PM
Allan C. 10 Mar 04 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,MMario 10 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM
Don Firth 10 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM
s&r 10 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM
Allan C. 10 Mar 04 - 04:38 PM
freda underhill 10 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM
Burke 10 Mar 04 - 05:22 PM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM
Johnny in OKC 10 Mar 04 - 05:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Mar 04 - 06:18 PM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM
Cluin 10 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM
Don Firth 10 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 07:32 PM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Mar 04 - 08:24 PM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 08:34 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Mar 04 - 08:35 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Mar 04 - 08:57 PM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 09:13 PM
Rapparee 10 Mar 04 - 09:34 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Mar 04 - 10:23 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Mar 04 - 10:36 PM
freda underhill 11 Mar 04 - 06:56 AM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Mar 04 - 04:18 PM
JohnInKansas 11 Mar 04 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 12 Mar 04 - 01:42 AM
Stilly River Sage 12 Mar 04 - 11:30 PM
Mudlark 13 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM
Doug_Remley 13 Mar 04 - 05:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Mar 04 - 05:53 PM
Mr Red 17 Mar 14 - 11:10 AM
Bert 17 Mar 14 - 01:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Mar 14 - 03:45 PM
Jim Dixon 17 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM
JohnInKansas 17 Mar 14 - 08:10 PM
Jack Campin 17 Mar 14 - 09:26 PM
JohnInKansas 18 Mar 14 - 03:45 AM
Mr Red 19 Mar 14 - 07:16 AM
JohnInKansas 19 Mar 14 - 02:50 PM
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Subject: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Clean Supper
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:20 AM

Where else but here...

I have been thinking there is a need for a particular punctuation mark which looks like this:

..

Its purpose is to signify a complete absence of inflexion or emotion attached to the end of speech. It is to avoid the ambiguity of no punctuation without having to put in something that causes the reader to infer meaning.

It doesn't have the finality of the full-stop "." nor the pregnancy of the "..." I think of it a bit like a colon that has nothing to indicate and has fallen flat.

Someone used it in a message in the forum. The message started
"Hi.." and I took it to be the idealised non-committal opening. So there it is, in the publi domqin (to an extent).
Well, what do we think?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:48 AM

..not sure


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:57 AM

I think it need irrigation myself!
John


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM

Well...............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM

..colonic irrigation?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:33 AM

So what you're saying, then, is that the first dot stands for "ho" and the second one stands for "hum"? Or maybe the first one stands for "what" and the second stands for "ever"?

Works for me..

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: C-flat
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

..


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM

Taking you seriously (which may be a mistake) I would say that .. is likely to be confused with ... or .......   

Actually the application you describe, of flatness, lack of expression, is pretty durn indefinite. I see limited or confusing application for such a punctuation mark, even if there weren't the confusion possibility.

And third, actually what you are describing would not be a punctuation mark, it would be a rhetorical indicator, like the exclamation mark and the question mark.

"Other than that, good idea!"

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM

Well, since everyone, simply EVERYONE, uses computers, why not use the pipe (|)? It indicates finality, but would be hard to confuse with the ! and would indicate a wall-like deadness.

Or, in homage to Microsoft, how about the backslash (\)? Of course, that could also be used to indicate cutting remarks.

The square brackets also have possiblities when used alone: ] means "I agree, but not with any great enthusiasm" and [ means "I disagree but not very firmly." The pointed brackets (> and <) could mean the same things, but with enthusiatic response.


All those in favor say "aye"|


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:55 AM

[!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM

The pipe | and the exclamation point! are quite easily confused in many fonts.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:04 AM

That's a relatively good idea about the pipe, Rapaire|


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:19 AM

| ~Oh, that's the pipe ~ didn't even know it was there~ |   #;^D


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:31 AM

So why do they call it a "pipe"? It looks more like a cigarette.

If anything "?" should be called a pipe. It does vaguely resemble the type Sherlock Holmes smoked. In fact, the Spanish "" looks even more so.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:31 AM

I think of it a bit like a colon that has nothing to indicate and has fallen flat. Reminds me of a certain government official whose name is pronounced all wrong, imo...(sorry, I've always got to do "odds"...don't do "evens!"**bg**)


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM

I would say that .. is likely to be confused with ... or .......   
(Uncle Dave)

What's the difference between ... and ....... ?

I'm not really too clear how.. differs from.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM

Technically, "...", exactly three dots, is the correct form for ellipsis as used in research papers to indicate something has been omitted. Using more than three is non-standard and will result in turning your B- paper into a C paper.

On the other hand, in informal creative writing, you may use as many as you wish as often as you wish without fear of Dr. Momberger deducting points from your grade.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

It is taking forever to logon, when I can.

To address the thread topic, good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:38 AM

What does a * before and after a word mean? As in *work* for instance.

Sal


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:39 AM

"...", exactly three dots, is the correct form for ellipsis as used in research papers to indicate something has been omitted. "

Or in a quote on a Mudcat post for example, for precisely the same reason. But it also is correctly used, and probably more freequently used, as a way of finishing a remark, and leaving it open to the reader to assume that something more could be said, but...

In "Eats, shoots and leaves", the book about punctuation that just about every pedant in the UK received (and gave) as a present this Christmas, there is quoted a dialogue from Dud and Pete in "Not Only...but also" (talking about Neville Shute's novel A Town Like Alice) which is cheerfully relevant here:

DUD: What happened after that, Pete?
PETE: Well, the bronzed pilot goes up to her and they walk away, and the chapter ends in three dots.
DUD: What do those three dots mean, Pete?
PETE: Well, in Shute's hands, three dots can mean anything.
DUD: How's your father, perhaps?
PETE: When Shute uses three dots it means, "Use your own imagination. Conjuremteh scene up for yourself." (Pause) "Whenever I see three dots I feel all funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:43 AM

You know, I have never used the: |. What the hell is it really used for?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:51 AM

seems to indicate a finality (alt0172)


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM

When it stands alone, I think the tilde ~ is an appropriate indicator of ambivalence. It reminds me somewhat of the "so so" gesture used in some cultures: hand rocked slightly with palm down, fingers curled slightly, pinkie and thumb outstretched.

It makes one wonder if any of this really matters ~


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:55 PM

: |    I think it might be a duck.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM

Via Duck?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:09 PM

Okay, class, seekers of esoteric knowledge, and trivia mavens!

The | is called a pipe because it's used in programming (especially in Unix) to tell the computer to move the data it processes to something else. For example:

                     ps -ef | more

"pipes" the result of the ps -ef command to the more command (which allows you to see the results a little at a time on the screen, instead of having the whole thing scroll up top to bottow). You could also use

                      ps -ef | pg

and pipe the result to the pg command. The difference is that one will allow you to review the results screen-by-screen and the other line-by-line.

A * is called a splat.
A ! is called a bang.
A \ is a backslash, a / is a frontslash.
Typing _something_ like that is underlining, typing it *like* that is for emphasis. ALL CAPS is shouting.
A # is a pound sign.

Now you are all semi-qualified computer geeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM

McGrath described exactly the most common instance of how I use the ellipsis here, to indicate I could say more, but am pausing at this point since the meaning has been made.

According to the Modern Language Association (MLA), an ellipsis should technically include spaces between the periods, thus: . . . to be clearly seen. If you use an ellipsis in a quote, it means you're dropping part of the phrase (for space and clear meaning). If you use . . . . (four dots) then the first one is the end of the previous sentence and the next three indicate that more than a few words, perhaps as much as a few sentences or paragraphs, have been dropped. They're trickier to use correctly. At some point you have to decide to simply use two quotes, rather than running two distant bits together as one.

I use the ~ to mean "about" or "approximately." I don't know where I picked it up, but it's pretty commonplace here in the U.S.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

wot du yu call it?

a hungry stop (cf full stop)

(I avoided suggesting the obvious menopause cf period)

It gotta have a name dunnit?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:48 PM

pipe? i have searched my keyboard uselessly - where is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:06 PM

It lies just below the backspace key on my keyboard, freda.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM

the tilde (~) for "approximately" is probably becuase it is used that way in mathematics - at least in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

Actually, there are two forms of the elipsis: three dots ( . . . ), indicating that something has been omitted within a sentence, or sometimes tying two sentences together; and four dots, indicating that the omission comes at the end of a sentence or paragraph, thus. . . .   The latter case is often used informally as a means if indicating an incomplete thought, presuming that the reader can fill in the rest.

Spacing is also regarded as important when typing a manuscript. In the three-dot ellipsis, there should be a space following the last letter of the preceding word, a space between each dot, and a space preceding the first letter of the following word. In the four-dot ellipsis, there should be no space between the last letter of the preceding word and the first dot, but a space between each dot. There should be two spaces following the fourth dot.

Or so says my style manual, which has a good section on preparing manuscripts for publication.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: s&r
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

is a pound sign - I thought hash # was US shorthand for number

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:38 PM

Right, Mario. In math it means "similar to". In logic it is used to indicate negation.

I still think it is might be a bit vague~


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM

| - thanks Alan - found it! (just above the backspace on mine!)


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Burke
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:22 PM

| is shift \ on my keyboard, but the key shows a broken line.

# means pound as in weight in US as well as number, also called a hash mark.

! bang and * splat make me smile. Much easier than exclamation and asterisk.

I also like the computer geekdom calls . dot instead of period or full stop. Dot com, etc.

If . means full stop, what's a not full stop?

.. looks like a typo. ~ for an indefinite feeling works better for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM

you found it up
there?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:52 PM

I just like the way tilde looks ~~~

Johnny


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:18 PM

I'm never too sure how tilde is pronounced. And in any case if you ever say it, no one knows what you mean. I used to have an email address with a tilde in it, and every time I gave it to anyone to write down, I had to explain, when I got to that bit. "Oh, you mean a squiggle!" they'd say. Which I actually think is a better name for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM

seems to be popular to NOT know too much, Kevin. I wonder what 'they' call the & ampersand?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

It seems to me a lot more people know about ampersands than know about tildes (is that the correct plural?). After all they're used and seen every day in the world away from keyboards. And they've got a meaning people recognise, even if they don't know the name.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM


                      .ed"""" """$$$$be.                     
                     -"          ^""**$$$e.                  
                   ."                   '$$$c               
                  /                      "4$$b               
                d 3                     $$$$               
                $ *                   .$$$$$$               
                .$ ^c          $$$$$e$$$$$$$$.            
                d$L 4.         4$$$$$$$$$$$$$$b            
                $$$$b ^ceeeee. 4$$ECL.F*$$$$$$$            
    e$""=.      $$$$P d$$$$F $ $$$$$$$$$- $$$$$$            
   z$$b. ^c    3$$$F "$$$$b   $"$$$$$$$ $$$$*"      .=""$c
4$$$$L   \    $$P" "$$b   .$ $$$$$...e$$       .= e$$$.
^*$$$$$c %..   *c    ..    $$ 3$$$$$$$$$$eF    zP d$$$$$
    "**$$$ec   "\   %ce""    $$$ $$$$$$$$$$*    .r" =$$$$P""
          "*$b. "c *$e.    *** d$$$$$"L$$    .d" e$$***"   
            ^*$$c ^$c $$$      4J$$$$$% $$$ .e*".eeP"         
               "$$$$$$"'$=e....$*$$**$cz$$" "..d$*"         
                "*$$$ *=%4.$ L L$ P3$$$F $$$P"            
                   "$   "%*ebJLzb$e$$$$$b $P"               
                      %..      4$$$$$$$$$$ "                  
                      $$$e   z$$$$$$$$$$%                  
                        "*$c "$$$$$$$P"                     
                         ."""*$$$$$$$$bc                     
                      .-"    .$***$$$"""*e.                  
                   .-"    .e$"    "*$c ^*b.               
            .=*""""    .e$*"          "*bc "*$e..            
          .$"       .z*"               ^*$e.   "*****e.      
          $$ee$c   .d"                     "*$.       3.   
          ^*$E")$..$"                         *   .ee==d%   
             $.d$$$*                           * J$$$e*      
             """""                            "$$$"


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM

Tilde, pronounced "TILL-duh."

As in the song:

"Ma tilde, ma tilde, ma tilde,
She take me money and run Venezuela."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM

Once a semi colon sat beside an Ampersand
Under the shade of the Alphabet tree,
And he sang as he sat and waited till his Hash was boiled
Who'll come a Waltzing my Tilde with me?...


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:32 PM

LOLOL!! I just shamelessly stole that one!


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM

oh, by the way---



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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:24 PM

And if you copy and paste what Bill posted above, you get



Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:34 PM

because my post included a specification to use "symbol" font (do a 'view source', and you'll see)....that font is available to almost everyone on a PC, not a Mac)...I use a couple special programs to make using other fonts this way not too much work.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:35 PM

Nevermind. I figured it out.





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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:57 PM

Because he used the alt symbols, probably.

"Tilde" is one of those words I usually only read, don't say, but when I read it to myself I call it a till-dee. I think I've heard it that way down here.

I just looked it up. Webster has tilde \'til-d e. . .well, let's try that again. Nope, can't do it.

No way to make that upside down "e" that sounds like the "u" in "abut." No hexidecimal code for it, no html for it. And when I was looking for it (all in the effort to post a pronunciation of the word "tilde") I found, in my 1987 Webster, that they call it a "swung dash"!!

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:13 PM

well..it CAN be done...see this thread where it is analyzed in detail and clarifed (sorta) by John in Kansas...


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:34 PM

ɘ – the upside down e – is called a schwa.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:23 PM

Which brings me back to the reason I needed to copy and paste "" in the first place. I was going to say that I met him once. He was the copilot of a spaceship and I was an abductee. It was a very intersting evening. Not an unpleasnt fellow, that , once you get used to all the extra appendages and the way that he's able to talk without actually having a mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:36 PM

Rap, that's the same thing that happened--the box substitutes for the symbol. I did find where it was referred to, but I didn't go in depth enough to find the exact command (you can post the direct link to the exact post if you first go to the thread, then click on the poster's name. Copy the URL at the top and that sends the link to right where you were trying to send me so I don't have to search to hard with my tired eyes this evening--anyone else getting buckets of pollen in the air yet? My eyes are starting down that itchy road.)

And yes, I remembered "schwa" after I clicked "send." Yet another senior moment to add to my rapidly growing list.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:56 AM

~~~~~~~~~
brilliant, Mr McG!*


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:18 PM

I'm a court reporter, the guy that sits in a meeting and takes down stenographically everything that everybody says, and then if necessary makes a transcript of it. For the first 30 years of my career, if asked for a transcript I would dictate from my notes, on a dictation machine (where else?) for a typist. I would dictate ALL punctuation, all paragraphing, the identification of the speaker, and the Q. and the A. standing for "question" and "answer".

Hold on, I getting to the point. Have faith.

Now the Q. and the A. were dictated as "QUESTION" and "ANSWER". But there was a potential problem, which had been solved long since by my remote predecessors. One would dictate COMMMA and PERIOD and SEMICOLON to indicate punctuation, but never QUESTION MARK. Why? Because the finely tuned, highly trained transcribers would have heard that "QUESTION", and in the blink of an eye they would be on the next line with a Q. before they heard the word MARK. Then they would have sent my soul to hell before going back to erase and correct.

Therefore, the dictation command for the ? was INTERROG, short for "interrogatory mark".   

Thus I might dictate: QUESTION did you go downtown INTERROG ANSWER No COMMA I stayed at home PERIOD"

This would come out:
Q. Did you go downtown?
A. No, I stayed at home.

Conversely, if I were dictating something about some length of time, I dared not dictate "a period of time", because the word "period" would have triggered the punctuation mark. Therefore that time word would be dictated as "PERI-ODD".

There were other specialized dictation practices too, but that illustrates what was done.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:52 PM

I think for any new usage, the "\" is ideal. Since, in many programming languages it sends an "Esc" character - which terminates the running process - it would contribute greatly to brevity in posting by those who use all such languages.

Of course - we'd never know if they quit on purpose...

John


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:42 AM

I have seen the interabang included in some fonts. It's a superimposed exclamation point and question mark. Used to express incredulity, for instance: "What?!" ( you'l lhave to pretend they're superimposed).

There is also the flabbergasterisk, a double size splat.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:30 PM

*


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Mudlark
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM

A flabbergasterisk! I love it!

I've always pronounced "tilde" till-day, the name of the mark over an 'n' in Spanish that indicates the sound en-yay, as in 'ano' (with a tilde over the n), pronounced anyo. I use ~ for 'approximate' a lot too, probably because I typed a lot of equations in my youth; also still use the less than (<), greater than (>) as well. Great shorthand.

I've always thought that a symbol showing support would look like /\ because I like the idea that two weak reeds leaning together make a strong structure.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:10 PM

Yet, for answer to the original question, a tilde ~ would be appropriate new punctuation without typemakers to cut a new form.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:53 PM

I remember when I was a reporter thay when dictating copy as question mark was referred to as "QUERY", and an exclamation mark was called "SCREAM".


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 11:10 AM

on the QI TV programme last night (repeat from many years ago) Stephen Fry reckoned that the sarcastrophe had been mooted without too much acclaim.
The description was the use of the caret to denote sarcastic tone.

eg
^Tony Blair - not such a bad liar^


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Bert
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 01:22 PM

I used to have a computer science teacher who called a tilde a tilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 03:45 PM

There should be two spaces following the fourth dot.

That hasn't been the case for a long time now. When keyboarding (versus typing) one space after the period before the next sentence is correct.

Three dots at the end of a sentence is called a "reflective pause" or "hesitation." The Harbrace College Handbook says it shouldn't be overused.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM

I see the State Library of New South Wales has adopted the interrobang as its logo.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 08:10 PM

Some progress has been made in handling of Unicode characters in newer versions of Windows (and Office) since this thead was current; but whether or not someone reading your cute stuff will see what you meant does still depend on the reader having an appropriate font installed on their computer, use of an appropriate encoding in their browser, and in some cases may depend on whether their computer/OS is a 32-bit or 64-bit setup.

It is still advisable to USE EXTENDED CHARACTERS WITH CAUTION, since those who read them may not see what you think you sent.

It may be of interest to Microsoft Word users to know that sometime after Win95 the "quick key" Ctl-X appeared, allowing you to type the Unicode HEX number for a character, and with the cursor immediately on the right of the last number Ctl-X will "flip" it to the glyph (character picture) your computer uses. This is a "toggle" so you can repeat Ctl-X to flip back and forth between image and number at will.

(If you encounter a character in html that doesn't display, you usually can copy the unkown thing and paste it in Word, then use Ctl-X to flip it to the Hex number and look up what it was meant to be in the Unicode standard - if it matters.)

For some uses, once the HEX code is flipped to the character glyph in Word, you can copy it from Word and paste it here and get a correct display. It's not guaranteed that this will always work, so preview before you submit, and code the char if it doesn't.

For the "neutral stop" proposed by the original post, I might suggest HEX CHAR 2601. (Code it &#x2601;). The character has another use, but as my computer renders it, it looks to me a little like a pile of "bunny pills" - a cutesy cowflop?. (The Microsoft "cow splat" would be appropriate but it's © and you'd have to use an image to display it.)

for those whose browser displays it

For the most recent note, Unicode says the interrobang can be coded:

&#x203C; = ‼
&#x203D; = ‽
&#x2047; = ⁇
&#x2048; = ⁈
&#x2049; = ⁉


John


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 09:26 PM

Could this help?

Pile of Poo


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 03:45 AM

My recollection is that the "PileOfPoo" character was discussed in an earlier thread here, but I wasn't able to find the thread. It must be noted that the "Char Number" is FIVE HEX digits (1F4A9) and Windows and Office, through Win7 and Office 2007, do not install any font in the default installations (or in "easily added" fonts) to use these "high number chars" except possibly as "extension fonts" for (mostly Asian?) languages, it's unlikely that very many people will see it if you try to use it here.

As I see it, the one main use of the new punction mark might be to indicate "I didn't really have anything to say," so maybe an invisible mark would be appropriate. (With that meaning (not the only one possible) the mark could be used a lot, although those who need it probably wouldn't know what it was.

(I might be the only one using it?)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:16 AM

I put a character generator on my website though I display the codes in decimal not hex.
The displayable characters go way up but there are some curious gaps. I can't remember but I probably chose the fonts "Arial, Helvetica, sans serif" (Win/IE, Apple, other) which covers most peoples' installation. Though I haven't tested on Tabs and Smart Phones.

In Firefox 28.0 it displays rubbish between #4625 and #7400 (eg) and it looks to be going Chinese in the region of #12288. Chrome looks to be the same, with nothing above #13311 for a long ways.

Have a play (click here - (new tab/window)) and click on the +100 a few times.

and there is a converter if you are website building and want to hide things like e-mail addresses from web-bots. Not that a clever web-bot would be fooled much these days. But if you surround it with spoof e-mail addresses like william.gates@msn.com and bill.gates@hotmail.com etc etc you are improving the odds - using the halo effect. They play the percentages - so should you.


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Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:50 PM

The Unicode Consortium web page has been cleaned up a lot since I last spent a little time there, and is a lot prettier than before.

At the Code Charts page you can find a list of charts, and a search box where you can insert the HEX number for a character and find which chart(s) contain that character . Down at the bottom of this page, there's a link to Character Names where you can look up a character (glyph) by its name and find the proper HEX code for it.

Each Code Chart generally is two or three pages and contains characters for a (fairly short) sequence of char numbers. Each chart is a pdf that you can download and save on your own machine if you like. The © disclaimer says you are free to download these for "personal and internal business use," and I have found it convenient to have charts for the range of HEX codes Windows can (more or less) handle. I keep copies of the charts for HEX 0001 thru HEX 7FFF (Decimal 1 thru 32767)handy on my machine, just in case I want to look for something (32 charts). Many of the charts do have "gaps" for character numbers that are "reserved," "undefined," and/or just "unprintable."

Recent Windows versions may contain two fonts that are "extended" to include lots of characters not in the majority of common fonts, but they may not be installed automatically since they are "very large" and may bog down your computer if used for general correspondence:

The Character Map will show one as "Arial Unicode MS" (it's 22,731 KB on your disk) and the other as "Lucida Sans Unicode" (a mere 318 KB). Note that NEITHER OF THESE is even remotely close to including "all the Unicode characters."

I do find two fonts on my Win7 computer with larger file sizes than the Arial Unicode, "Microsft YaHei" at 35,519 KB and "Microsoft JungHei" at 35,328 KB, but have no real idea what they're good for. (My current Win7/Office2007 shows 226 fonts available in the Character Map, but the only explanation I can offer for most of them is "they came with her when I married her.")

John


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