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Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)

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dick greenhaus 28 Feb 04 - 03:30 PM
Lancashire Lad 28 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,John Ford. 28 Feb 04 - 07:54 PM
Jeri 28 Feb 04 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,Lien 29 Feb 04 - 12:35 PM
dick greenhaus 29 Feb 04 - 12:50 PM
michaelr 29 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM
dick greenhaus 29 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Lien 29 Feb 04 - 04:20 PM
dick greenhaus 29 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,Gerry. 29 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM
Susanne (skw) 29 Feb 04 - 07:38 PM
red max 01 Mar 04 - 05:27 AM
Lancashire Lad 01 Mar 04 - 07:22 AM
pavane 01 Mar 04 - 07:33 AM
dick greenhaus 01 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM
dick greenhaus 02 Mar 04 - 11:43 AM
pavane 02 Mar 04 - 12:06 PM
pavane 02 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Leprechaun 17 Mar 04 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,T-boy 18 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM
greg stephens 18 Mar 04 - 08:29 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Mar 04 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Bill Thomas 18 Mar 04 - 02:45 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Bill Thomas 18 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 18 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Mar 04 - 07:35 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 Mar 04 - 07:58 PM
greg stephens 19 Mar 04 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,Bill Thomas 19 Mar 04 - 04:46 AM
greg stephens 19 Mar 04 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,Ian 20 Mar 04 - 06:49 AM
dick greenhaus 20 Mar 04 - 05:56 PM
GUEST 21 Mar 04 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,Ian 21 Mar 04 - 04:33 AM
dick greenhaus 21 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Rob Donnelly 26 Mar 04 - 03:49 AM
pavane 26 Mar 04 - 06:53 AM
pavane 26 Mar 04 - 06:54 AM
Roger the Skiffler 26 Mar 04 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 26 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM
dick greenhaus 26 Mar 04 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 26 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,John, Randfontein, SA 08 Sep 04 - 03:54 AM
treewind 08 Sep 04 - 08:10 AM
early 08 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,guest 08 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM
early 08 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Andy (Miskin Man) 08 Sep 04 - 01:38 PM
shepherdlass 08 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM
shepherdlass 08 Sep 04 - 03:48 PM
Ralphie 08 Sep 04 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Lien 09 Sep 04 - 03:12 AM
treewind 09 Sep 04 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 09 Sep 04 - 04:47 AM
Ralphie 09 Sep 04 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,John Larkins, Randfontein, SA 09 Sep 04 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Ian Porter. 09 Sep 04 - 08:06 AM
Ralphie 09 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Liam 09 Sep 04 - 08:03 PM
Nerd 09 Sep 04 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,Ian Prorter/Lincs. 09 Sep 04 - 08:47 PM
Malcolm Douglas 09 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 09 Sep 04 - 09:48 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 09 Sep 04 - 10:00 PM
pavane 10 Sep 04 - 02:31 AM
Ralphie 10 Sep 04 - 03:54 AM
red max 10 Sep 04 - 05:32 AM
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GUEST,Liam 10 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM
treewind 10 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,Liam 10 Sep 04 - 08:29 AM
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pavane 10 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM
shepherdlass 10 Sep 04 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM 10 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM
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Subject: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:30 PM

For folks that don't want to wade through the 120+ postings in Celtic Bulmer (4)

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (4)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:14 PM

A Plea for Some Sort of Clarification

As I (perhaps poorly) understand it, Celtic Music has done three bad things"

A. They sat on some titles (notably Nic Jones) and refused to release them, doing financial harm to the artists.

B. They (allegedly) have not paid royalties to the artists on thr few CDs they have released.

C. They have released CD-Rs without notifying anyone that they're nor properly pressed CDs.



Could someone tell me if I'm reading this correctly? The reason I ask is that CM has recently released a small flood of excellent previously-unavailable CDs, and I'd like to make this very fine music available to my customers. Objection "A" clearly doen't apply here. As far as "B" is concerned, I'd be grateful if any artists whose work has been released would let me know if they are receiving royalties; if they're not, I can probably make some arrangement where I'll pay the royalties to them directly. As for "C" it is as it is; I'll make no secret about whether they're CD-R's or not, but I'd like to point out that any CDs (or CD-Rs) I sell come with a lifetime (probably mine) warranty.

I'd really like to help make this music available. What think you?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM

Hi Dick

I'm one of the few people on here who doesnt believe Dave Bulmer is the devil incarnate!

CM have now released 2 Nic Jones albums. Royalties have been sent, but cheques remain uncashed as I believe there are ongoing negotiations over new contracts / royalty rates , etc

I'm not sure about all artists on the label, but a friend recently spoke to Sid Kipper, he said he gets paid no problem and is happy to keep releasing his stuff through them

Yes they press on CDR, but had I not been told, I would never have guessed. I've bought quite a few of them and never had a single problem yet

By the way though. There are a lot more than a "few" CDs they have released. CM own everything on Trailer, Leader, Black Crow, Making Waves, Mulligan, Dara, Broadside, Sweet Folk and Country, Folk Heritage, Greenwich Village, Rubber and I'd guess a load more.

Cheers

LL


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,John Ford.
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:54 PM

Whatever Bulmer and Sharply own, they have stolen almost every penny
from Pat Cooksey's song The Sick Note, Cooksey seems to b exiled in
Germany while Celtic Music take all that is his due to him, I think
Cooksey is doing someting about it, I certainly hope so, for the sake
of folk music.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:31 PM

Dick, you might try posting on uk.music.folk. Gaughan hangs out there, and other folks could probably let you know how to reach other Bulmerized recording artists.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Lien
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:35 PM

Dick, you don't mention how you will be paying royalties. Do you intend to buy CD's from CM (presumably as a retailer) at dealer prices and then make an ADDITIONAL royalty payment to the artistes involved? How will you calculate the royalties? How would this be possible unless you are content to reduce your own margins? OR do you intend to simply attempt to purchase from Bulmer and then stiff him for the royalty element that you have calculated so that you can remit to the artistes concerned? If so it sounds just a tad naive however altruistic it sounds! Perhaps you actually mean to bootleg original material. Please put me out of my confusion. Whilst I thoroughly agree that it would be good to make more folk music available please never forget that Mr B and the bag carrier Sharpley will surely take you to the cleaners if you attempt to write your own "terms of trade". Good luck anyway.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:50 PM

Guest, Lien
Do you intend to buy CD's from CM (presumably as a retailer) at dealer prices and then make an ADDITIONAL royalty payment to the artistes involved? That's the idea. And remember, I'm not sure (and won't be until I hear from the artists, that they're not getting royalties.

How will you calculate the royalties? typically, royalties come to 5% of the recording's list price

How would this be possible unless you are content to reduce your own margins? That's the idea.

OR do you intend to simply attempt to purchase from Bulmer and then stiff him for the royalty element that you have calculated so that you can remit to the artistes concerned? I don't intend to stiff anyone. Please keep in mind that we're not talking about a hell of a lot of money here. My main interest is getting the music out. THat's why DigiTrad exists; that's why CAMSCO exists.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM

Dick -- great idea, and it's good of you to consider reducing your profit margin.

Where can one see a list of this "small flood" of new releases?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM

Ok-
A partial listing:

LER 2027        Nic Jones               Nic Jones
CROC 211        5-Hand Reel               Gaughan, etc.
LER 2014        Ballads & Songs               Nic Jones
RUB 028               Nowt So Good'll Pass        Bob Fox, Sid Luckley
LER 2122        Chained Melody               Sid Kipper
PHF 1004        Barking Mad               4 Men & a Dog
PHF 1003        Shifting Gravel               4 Men & a Dog
PHF 1005        Dr. A's Secret Remedies        4 Men & a Dog
PHF 1006        Long Roads               4 Men & a Dog
LUN 051               Time to Time               Gerry O'Connor
LE 4006               The Border Minstrel        Billy Pigg
MOO 2               Rooted!                        Mike Harding
LE 2121               Cod Pieces               Sid Kipper
                    Arky's Toast               Martyn Wyndham-Read
LE 2092               Maypoles to Mistletoes        Martyn Wyndham-Read
RUB 029               On Two Levels               Sean McGuire & Josephine Keegan
LE 2011               Rout of the Blues        Robin, Barry Dransfeld
PHF 1001        From the Beggar's Mantle Barbara Dickson
PHF 1002        Orfeo                        Archie Fisher
GVR 214               Songs & Tunes From Wales        Mick Terns & Pat Smith
GVR 224               You Can Take a White Horse Anywhere Terns & Smith                                                                                                   
CMC 080               Both Sides of the Coyne         Mick Coyne
CMC 009               Hom Bru                        Obadeea
CMC 079               Lifeswork                 James Keegan
DAM 056               Since Time Immoral         Kipper Family
PHC 2K2               Legendary Queen of Irish Folk Singers        Delia Murphy
LER 2044       Music From the Coleman Country Revisited        various
LED 2052       Shetland Fiddlers        various (inc. Aly Bain & Tom
                                                         Anderson)
CGR 002               Mouth Organ              Will Atkinson
LER 2038        The Bonny Birdy              Ray Fisher
LER 2076        Bright Phoebus              Lal & Mike Waterson
GVR 209               The Ettrick Shepherd        The McCalmans
GVR 209               Aboard the Cutty Sark        Stan Hugill
CMC 081               You are Here                 Tich Frier
PHC 2K7               Frank Wappat's Spring Collection        various
PHK 2K3               The Street Singer        Arthur Tracy


Can't quote prices as yet--I'd rather wait a short while and see if I'll be lynched by maddend Mudcatters


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Lien
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 04:20 PM

Well Dick, it sounds too good to be true and I wish you luck. Mr Bulmer too will be happy as, of course, technically royalties will have been paid and thus he is presumably relieved of the obligation to pay them himself. He would have won by default and surely this is not the object of the exercise? So you dont end up in bankruptcy sooner than you would wish, could I suggest that you find out exactly how the royalty is calculated - do you intend to pay an (average) of 5% of the list price CM sells to you, or on the list retail price. The difference in cost to you would be very considerable. The base on which the royalty is calculated is so important and you must see that there is a world of difference between a base of (say) £7/unit dealer, and (say) £12/retail. I think this is a minefield and I cannot fail to say that I think you will be taking on too much even though the proposed items look so interesting. You certainly must take proper advice - not least from the MCPS and the BPI.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM

Mr. Bulmer is still responsible for royalties--what I do as a customer of his in no way relieves him of that obligation, whether or not he honors it. 5% of £12 is 60p.--which isn't catastrophic (and I suspect that original royalty agreements call for a somewhat lower amount.) The MCPS and the BPI have absolutely nothing to do with this.And I only wish I could make a £5 profit on recordings from the UK--

..and, realistically, I doubt that there would be more than a couple of hundred sales (total) involved.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Gerry.
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM

Please sell whatever you wish Dick, you are dealing with a bunch of crooks who take everyting from the artist's you claim to reperesent.
All the more profit to you and hang the rest.
Celtic Music, Bulmer and Sharley, are tbe worst examples of the
exploitatin of folk music I have ever encountred.
Please count the money, and f''ck the rest.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM

If, as reported, Sharpley has been struck off as a solicitor, and if, as reported, he continues to purport to be a solicitor and to represent Bulmer/Celtic in court, why has he not been charged with offences under the Solicitors Acts?

If anyone can PM me with actual facts, including Sharpley's full name and preferably address and the places and dates where he purported to be a solicitor I may (time permitting, I am under the gun all this week) take the issue up with the Law Society.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:38 PM

I bought Ray Fisher's 'Bonny Birdy' in a shop in Britain last year and found (too late) that it is a CD-R copy. I understand that such copies are expected to be less long-lasting than industrially produced CDs, and therefore feel cheated. It cost me the same as any other CD and was in no way marked out as a copy. I only took a closer look when it wouldn't play in my CD walkman nor in the PC. Can't take it back, though ...


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: red max
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:27 AM

For what it's worth, CM's reissue of the first Hedgehog Pie album had loads of vinyl crackle. I've read from other sources that you can expect some pretty shoddy packaging, too


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:22 AM

I didnt know that CM or anyone else in the UK had re-issued the 1st Hedgehog Pie album. I've been looking for a CD of this (and the other albums) for ages, but can only locate the Italian bootleg CD with the Lambton Worm tracks added.
If this is the one you are talking about, it has nothing to do with Rubber Records / Celtic Music. It's the product of an Italian bootlegger.

LL


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:33 AM

Dick,
The other point (apart from your first 3) is that by selling CDRs, they do not have to tell anyone how many they have made. Therefore any royalty payments will be based on their own sales figures, with no independent confirmation available.

How trustworthy are they?

And unfortunately, buying from him just lines his pocket further.

(PS on the case of Sharpley, I believe the case was dropped)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM

Pavanne-
The same lack of auditability (to coin a word) exists with pressed CDs--witness suit against Green Linnet.

I really don't see how a retailer--me--can function if the goodness or badness of the supplier is called into question. I also don't see how a retailer--again me--can be held responsible for the audio quality of a CD, short of mentioning it to the prospective purchaser (which I intend to do.)

I'd like to sell these CDs simply because there's some fine, otherwise unavailable, music therein. While I realize that any such sales benefit M. Bulmer, I also realize that my computer purchases benefit Mr Gates (whom I personally detest.) MY like, or dislike, of the publisher can't prevent me from patronizing him, unless there are other equivalent sources.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:43 AM

If there are no more compelling dissenters, I'm going ahead with the import. Could somebody E-mail me an address for Nic Jones? I'd like to get the royalty business settled.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:06 PM

A search for Mollie Music should find an address.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM

Nic's site is Here


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Leprechaun
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:35 AM

Dave Bulmer is playing St. Patrick's night in Leeds at The New Roscoe with The Drouthy Band. I'm sure you'll all be down to wish him well!


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM

I hope some bootlegger recorded it.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:29 AM

Dick Greenhaus injects a note of reality in the proceedings when he points that what he is discussing is probably the sale of a couple of hundred records. These royalties that the terrible Mr Bulmer may or not have have shafted people for are in the area of beer/pin money(and not many beers or pins at that). A tiny handful of folkies that get big BBC/Froots coverage make more substantial sales that result in royalties measured in thousands of pounds, but that is surely not the case with Bulmer artists, I would guess.
    He may be doing all sorts of wrong things, but I doubt if he's lining his pockets to any extent.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:59 AM

I can only add that Sid Kipper, at least is receiving royalties--he's the one who gave me Celtic Music's address in the first place.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Bill Thomas
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 02:45 PM

I wonder about this. Celtic Music isn't the only music industry source of music often accused of non-payment of royalties to artists. I have also heard that Green Linnet in the US routinely stiffs their artists as well. Do you sell their CDs?

Why the special case for Celtic Music, if you don't mind my asking?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM

As a retailer, I'm not the guardian of publisher's morals, or reponsible for punishing any lapses of ethics. Especially alleged ones. I sell everything folk or folkish that's in print.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Bill Thomas
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM

I agree wholeheartedly dick, which is why I asked why Celtic Music seems a special case? I mean, Altan's lawsuit against Green Linnet alleges over $100,000 in unpaid royalities, refusal by Green Linnet to provide sales figures, etc.

I posted because it seemed odd to me that a retailer would go to such extraordinary lengths for a couple 100 CDs, when there are many distributors in the folk music industry who have been accused of ripping off artists besides Celtic Music. I would imagine that trying to do what you suggested you would do in your posts above, ie pay royalties directly to musicians, could quickly become a bookkeeping nightmare for a retailer.

I don't mean to be stepping over the line of polite decorum here, but I get the feeling from your response that the line is already behind me. You did ask for feedback on this.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM

I 'ad that Wendy Newton in my Vauxhall Cavalier once. Bleeder broke dahn near 'Atton Cross station (motor, not the bird). On my life...


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:35 PM

Trying to make a business out of selling folk CDs is a nightmare(albeit a pleasant one), whether or not royalties are involved.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:58 PM

Read the old threads, Bill. You'll quickly find that one reason why they are all closed to new contributions is because far too many people have asked exactly the question you have asked without bothering to read what has already been said, and then it has all been said again... and so on.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 01:57 AM

"Bill Thomas" seems strangely familiar in style, I think we made have heard from him before in other guises on this topic?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Bill Thomas
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 04:46 AM

Thanks for your suggestion Malcolm, but having just checked the volume and viturperativeness of those threads, I've no intention of reading them.

Opinions were asked for, I gave mine. I find it just plain bizarre that any retailer would single out a single distributor alleged to have ripped off the musicians whose catalogues they own, and selectively pay some musicians royalties directly from the sales of the CDs.

But then, that's me. Now, since holding that opinion apparently makes me suspect in the eyes of some (apparently) paranoid individuals here, I'll bow out now, with due apologies for having posted at all.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 04:48 AM

like i said


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 06:49 AM

Seem to be a umber of Bulmer excusists around these days. Although the threads bega with the rips, the debate has matured to expose DB and his companies for what they are. I understand that almost without exception Bulmer has managed to damage nearly evryone he comes in to contact with, whether it be in the field of folk music, record distribution, record pressing etc. Very few people seem to speak particularly well of him but is it any wonder? At the first sniff of dissent (ie demands for royalties etc) Bulmer commences legal action. Distributors have been ripped off and there is at least one case ongoing where a distributor has not been paid. He really is not the nice guy some now hope to paint him. Dont believe me? Make contact with some of his former business partners most of whom have been ruined by his actions. In the knowledge of what he means, anyone now dealing with him deserves what they will undoubtedly get.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 05:56 PM

I'm confused. I'm as willing as anyone else to believe that Bulmer is a bum, a nogoodnik, the AntiChrist....whatever. But can someone tell me how it's possible for a recording outfit to stiff a distributor? Distributors are supposed to pay recording companies, not vice versa.

I'd really like to know--might come in handy some day.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:39 AM

CM is not a "recording outfit"; never really has been. It is primarily a distributor which, over the years, has bought up the back catalogues of numerous small record labels. Odd bits of new material are generated occasionally by one of other of the complicated series of "nested" companies involved, but that has never been an important part of the business. The current series of re-issues are reported by some people who have bought them (see discussions on uk.music.folk) to be home-copied CDRs; whether that is accurate or not I don't know. I do know some former business associates and clients of Mr Bulmer, however, and they do not, on the whole, remember him with affection. "Lancashire Lad" is a rare voice in his favour. I wonder who he is?

The fact that some of the "Celtic Music" companies are still trading normally suggests that they have maintained acceptable working relationships with a reasonable number of other concerns. The general consensus, however, is that it is politic, when dealing with them, at least to have available the proverbial long spoon; and to try to be sure that you owe them money, not the other way around.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 04:33 AM

Dick. I did not say that CM was principally a recording outfit. That side of CM business is probably a minority activity these days and has been for several years. CM and its famed owner, Mr Bulmer, makes money out of other more lucrative activities - distribution being just one of them. The problem stems, it seems, from Mr Bulmer's preferred accounting method which is that of contra accounting and this is where he gets the upper hand over all those he deals with. It is perfectly feasible for him to damage distributors in this way. The notion of product (ie records, tape s and CD's) exchange is his way of ultimately ensuring that the other parties lose out. I think that if you delve a little deeper into his methods you will see that I am right and you will probably discover that on accounting day, Mr B applies all the ancillary charges (normally carried as an element of "cost of sales") which effectively put the other party into a debtor situation. Arguments follow and then the legal eagle Sharpley swings in to gear with writs and threats of all sorts of legal action. This is the way CM does business. Dick, ask around and if you still consider that a deal with Bulmer could be good, take time to develop the proberbial eyes in the backside. It will certainly be profitable but assuredly those profits will be Mr Bulmer's.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM

Dunno about "certainly be profitable" but I hate to have all that good music unavailable to the few who want to hear it.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Rob Donnelly
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 03:49 AM

I re released my first Album "Dirtfile" on Mr Bulmer's Delta Label 4 years ago and I haven't had a penny, but does that mean he's been ripping me off or has he simply failed to sell any albums?
There's one thing for sure, no wonder he has trouble distributing them if he's as popular as this forum suggests.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 06:53 AM

The former sounds more likely.

Have you checked with any shops or distributors as to whether they sell/have sold it? I don't think there are too many folk specialists, so it may be practicable to check.

But I don't suppose suing for royalties would be cost-effective - that's part of the business rationale, I expect.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 06:54 AM

Perhaps you could check - get a few people to actually BUY it, and see what happens. But that isn't cost-effective either!


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:29 AM

Couldn't the Musicians' Union act on your behalf, Rob?

RtS
(You ARE a union member, I hope, brother!)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM

To Rob, surely you would know exactly how many have been sold over the four year period OR does CM not bother with royalty statements??? Your contract with Delta (CM/Bulmer/uncle Tob Cobbly et al) will or should give precise details of the statementing period and the accounting thereafter. But if you dont hold him to the letter of the contract perhaps you really dont deserve to know.......


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:26 AM

As I recall, it isn't on CMs list of what's available. Royalties, as has been pointed out here many times, only apply to product that's been sold.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

Indeed that is so. But whether a record is sold, or not sold, the contract will (certainly should) provide for a Statement at prescribed intervals. This is common practice amongst all reputable companies. But there again, we are talking about a Bulmer company....


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,John, Randfontein, SA
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:54 AM

I haven't visited this thread for many months and it ssems that all is now quiet. Has the man made his peace with you all. It was so vexed at one time and now nothing. Any news?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: treewind
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 08:10 AM

I guess all that's to be said has been said, and the rest is speculation until something new happens in a law court.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: early
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM

i wonder if anyone who writes into these threads have actually met Dave or know him? I am aquainted with him and from my knowledge of him directly would say he is no different than any other business man. I also know of artists who Dave has facilitated the release of their own CD's for no cost in return for the rights to sell with a number going to the artist directly to do with as they wish. They seemed quite happy with this arrangement as far as I know. I also visited CM's warehouse and purchased a number of tapes cd's and vinyl(some of major artists) in the past, always finding them more than helpful and knowledgeable about their vast stock of freely available music. If he were as bad as you all make him out to be i am sure he'd drive a much better car and be living a lavish lifestyle which any one seeing him would know is not the case. Dave is passionate about music in both preserving and collecting as well as being a talented player well connected to many well established artistes with whom he plays and associates - this hardly ties in with the picture most of you paint of him.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM

early, I think you are rather naive. Seek out Bulmers former partners, people he has done business with, and chat to some of the musicians you claim he associates with. Let the true picture emerge.
By the way, did you count your change?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: early
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM

BRAVE GUEST at least have the decency to add your name or state facts - most of the junk posted is third hand and based on what someone said happened to someone else - no business would still be in existence if all that is attributed to cm / d bulmer had occurred - i think the naive are those who have jumped on this band wagon to have a go. Musicians getting shafted by producers and record companies is nothing new but habging on to something you own till the time you want to either sell it or utilise it, depending on market conditions as far as i am aware is good practise - precisely what CM are accused of - also i have yet to meet anyone on the folk scene (including major touring artists who make much from royalties anyway - as pointed out earlier in this thread we are not talking about thousands of tiltles or copies anyway - pirates are probably taking more out of the artises pocket than anyone else on the folk scene - where incidently most of the act i book sell their own CD's at gigs more than anywhere else


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy (Miskin Man)
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:38 PM

Well... I just stumbled on this thread after an afternoon in the pub so I will speak as I find.
I had occasion to deal with Dave a while ago now about a re-release of a well known Welsh Band after life changing medical problems. Dave could not have been more helpful, more interested or less financially motivated.... No, I've never met him,.. no I've had no great financial dealings with him. BUT I have talked many hours late in to the night with a genuine caring music person. I have watched with a growimg confusion all the stories about Dave but I speak only from my personal dealings with him - interested, caring, and efficient beyond reproach. I look forward to one day meeting the man for a handshake and a beer. (Those who know me will know that I really mean a hug)

Andy


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM

early - you asked for personal experiences.

I've met Bulmer on occasion and seen the inside of the old CM office before he went big time. From what I saw, he genuinely loves the music but also actively enjoys keeping artists dangling. Not all of them - some are treated with the utmost courtesy (these people then become apologists). Others have to beg - not for royalties - but just an audience with Mr CM himself. So it doesn't seem to be a profit thing - more pursuit of a sense of power. One for Freud rather than the lawyers? No idea what he really gets from it but it's not pretty.

Re the lists of impending releases - would like to hope these are genuine - suspect that more often they're just wish lists (and that there's no evil agenda behind this, just no actual staff to do the bloody job). It's a mess - can only assume the legal side is tight enough that the MU can't do anything about it? Let's hope Nic Jones at least gets some dosh soon.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:48 PM

PS Andy (Miskin Man) - Hope it works out for you. It may well do - reckon he's good when he's interested!


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:34 PM

Jesus
I thought that I would be able to get away from this shit..
Sadly not...dragged back in once again.
Hand over the tapes Mr Bulmer.
Pay money to people that you owe money to.
And finally.
Expletive deleted.
Too many years, Too many tears, may the ghost of Tony Rose come back to haunt you.
NO MORE
Ralph Jordan


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Lien
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:12 AM

Like Ralphie I hoped that we had seen the last mention of Bulmer - that it until the day we hear he has got the legal banging that will inevitably reach him.   I also agree with Guest who responded to early (surely early is as much a cop out as Guest??) and from dealings that I have had with Bulmer over many years can confirm that to "check your change" might be sensible! I agree also that the real picture can be gained from his previous partners, not to mention employees who have been likewise treated like dirt. Sadly time will not be the healer for these people and I know of at least one former partner whom Bulmer has got gripped in a legal iron vice concocted by his in house hit-man Sharpley. Oh yes Early, you are naive.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: treewind
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:18 AM

Mudcat technical note: "early" may not be someone's real name but if push came to legal shove the person's identity can be obtained from their registration details. That is not the case with an unregistered "GUEST".

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:47 AM

Shepherdlass,

What makes you think that the MU would be interested ?

For many years I've seen stickers "Keep Music Live" which I believe was organised or backed by the MU, result less live music more "DJ's"

Like-wise many years ago radio stations were limited in "needle time"
thus ensuring that live music got some coverage on radio. I believe that this was in agreement with the MU.Current situation: 100's more radio stations, even less live music. Not a good track record.

Sorry if I've strayed from the main reason for this thread's existence but in my own brief dealings with Mr Bulmer's organisation I would say that it was far from organised or efficient. That however is not uncommon in the real world.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 05:55 AM

GUEST Lien
Many Thanks for your kind words
Regards Ralph


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,John Larkins, Randfontein, SA
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:15 AM

Sorry if I have seemed to upset the peaceful apple cart! Whilst I did not for one moment imagine that Mr Bulmer had become akin to the late Mother Theresa, it is regrettably sure that he is still the problem he apparently has always been. I came to the thread again after having met a folk musician visiting South Africa very recently. This gentleman (who you will appreciate I cannot name as that would be very irresponsible in view of the litigious and spiteful nature of Mr Bulmer) was very vocal about the whole set up that had deprived him of a rather large amount of money over several years.   He exorted some young musicians listening to under no circumstances do business with Mr Bulmer. What a very sad indictment but no doubt this is of not the remotest concern to the people at CM in England. I shall continue now to return to the thread to see what if anything goes down.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian Porter.
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:06 AM

The main accusation levelled at Mr Bulmer seems to be that he is not very nice, there is little hard evidence concerning his supposed crimes, surely not releasing back catalogues, which he owns anyway, is up to him. Non payment of royalties seems to be a major bone of contention, but nobody seems to be able to give any specific cases, only hearsay, where are these disgruntled former partners. I know Bulmer only as a rather good accordion player, who I have seen several times in sessions in Yorkshire, he seems to have plenty of friends in the folk music community here. I know his partner Neil Sharpley has been in court a few times, and has been struck off as a solicitor, but he also has many friends in high places in Louth, where he lives, unless anyone has any real evidence against Bulmer, I suggest that there is little point in constantly going over old ground.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM

So, being a "rather good accordian player" justifies this whole sorry saga?
Tell that to Lal Waterson, Tony Rose, Nic Jones....etc....infinitum.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:03 PM

Infinitum?

Hardly.

There is a finite (as in a handful or two) group of musicians who feel they weren't treated fairly.

Those same half soaked musicians couldn't be bothered hiring a solicitor to advocate for their own business interests, now or at the time they signed with Bulmer. Hence the well orchestrated campaign (which includes certain posters to these threads) to beat seven shades of shit out of him instead.

Thing is, it turned me off forever to those musicians, some of whom I thought were above that sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:21 PM

Wouldja ever consider reading the threads before posting, Liam? If you did it would explain a lot! Like the fact that many people did not sign with Bulmer. Or the fact that Bulmer's partner IS a solicitor making his legal costs next to nil. This means he can tie things up in process forever, spending no real money, until artists run out of legal fees.

Etc, etc...


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian Prorter/Lincs.
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:47 PM

Bulmer and Sharply come from the the same part of North Yorkshire, as
do all the Hull crowd, Linc'c etc, Seems a shame that in more than
three years, none of them has metionied a word about these matters.
John from Hull, can you help us.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM

I doubt if the Northern Lincs/East Yorks people have had a lot to do, professionally, with Celtic Music of Harrogate.

The sad, lazy ignorance of people like Liam (who is he in real life, I wonder?) is what keeps these discussions dragging pointlessly on. Nothing new is added, but the same misapprehensions and misinformation —and, sometimes, deliberate mendacity— are continually repeated by those who don't know the people involved or who haven't bothered to read what has already been said.

Everything material to the present state of affairs has already been said, one way or another. In earlier days on the internet, there was an acronym which newer arrivals here might do well to look up, and take to heart before posting redundant and ill-informed comments:

RTFT

In this case, of course, there are several threads to read. They are all indicated at the head of this page. If you find that too difficult, or just too much trouble, then perhaps you ought to refrain from comment altogether.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:48 PM

Qoute-"john from Hull can you help us?"
I posted Bulmers adress here a couple of years ago.

although, for your information I and the rst of the Hull Mudcat members [theres over 50 of us here], are in East Yorkshire, Mr Bulmer lives in North Yorkshire, [harrogate].

his full address and phone number are in one of the earlier threads, I know its there, as I put it there.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:00 PM

David R Bulmer
Roskilde House
York Road
Knaresborough
North Yorkshire.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:31 AM

What is a 'handful'?

When I look through my record collection, I find that a large number of titles have been 'bulmerised'.

If these are suppressed from sale, then inevitably the performers are not going to receive any royalties, regardless of any other issues.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:54 AM

Dear GUEST Liam
My apologies for my poor Latin
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: red max
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:32 AM

Mr Bulmer lives about a mile away from me, but what am I supposed to do? I think it's tragic that so many great Leader/Trailer etc. albums are in limbo, but would it really help if I went round and threw a brick through his window?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM

Red Max
No


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM

I am as well informed as any about the circumstances as they've been laid out for us over the years on the folk forums. If musicians with aspirations to becoming professional musicians in the music industry (which is a business) sign on the dotted line without the contracts being reviewed and negotiated by their own solicitor, they bloody well get what they deserve.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: treewind
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM

That's hard advice when your contract is initially with a personal friend and his record co. then goes bust and is bought up by somebody you don't know.

The folk part of the "music industry" has always been a pretty informal affair, even more so at the time when those events happened.

So, my contract with Wild Goose states explicitly that rights ownership reverts to me in the event of Wild Goose's business passing into the hands of anybody other than Doug Bailey. No prizes for guessing why that clause went in.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:29 AM

Firstly, hard advice though it may be, it is the only sound advice there ever has been when it comes to the cutthroat nature of the industry.

I simply don't accept that the aggrieved musicians shouldn't have been expected to know the terms of the contracts they signed. If they did sod all to protect their own financial interests, why should anyone have sympathy for them? I'm supposing there may even have been a few of them who never read their own contracts before or after signing. Too busy down at the pub with the lads, perhaps?

Secondly, it is common sense to know that business and friendship rarely mix well in any industry. That knowledge was quite well known even at the time those older contracts were signed.

Thirdly, if those musicians had bothered to educate themselves about the industry they were attempting to make a living in, they would have known what could happen to their creative work when their friend turned out to be terrible at business, or the label was gobbled up by another, etc etc. Those circumstances have never been uncommon occurences in the folk music industry, even back in those days.

Finally, there were, obviously, no fewer fools among them then, than there are today.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:23 AM

GUEST Liam.
It's always wonderful to welcome such kind, loving, caring and sensitive people like yourself to this forum.
I hope that you will stay, (How much do you charge, BTW?)


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM

If they did sod all to protect their own financial interests, why should anyone have sympathy for them?

Just a wild guess here, Liam...Because they're human beings?

If you're ever shot, God forbid, someone might say "he knew he might get shot, it's a cruel old world, bulletproof vests are available, and if he did sod all to protect his miserable cold heart, why should anyone have any sympathy?"

Maybe then you'd understand, Liam...


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM

Our (civil, not criminal) legal system has always worked by the unwritten rule that whoever has the deepest pockets wins. (Microsoft, for one example)

Doesn't matter how good your contract, they will still tie you up.
Musicians in general, and folk musicians in particular, don't tend to have a great deal of money to throw at a lawsuit which may not result in any cash even if they win.

Easier to walk away and accept the loss rather than throw good money after bad. And that's EXACTLY what some people rely on.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:58 PM

Liam - just reiterating the point made by others here (in the hope that repetition in another way might help): an artist ripped off by a record company and who cannot afford legal redress is no different to a 9-to-5 worker unfairly sacked by their employer. They have a right for their complaint to be heard and to compensation. No-one expects that any other worker becomes a legal expert BEFORE any problems arise - why should musicians be any different?

Hootenanny - point taken re the MU. They are pretty toothless, as I discovered while working on a supposedly MU-friendly contract with the Rank organization (hours were extended and wages cut with absolutely no comeback). Equity are a lot better. I just wondered whether there's even a warning in the MU rag about working with CM (suspect not, due to their ability to keep everything entirely legal no matter how immoral it seems)?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

Yes CM has been the subject of what the MU politely call "NOTICES" for at least ten years. Mr Bulmer's company holds the record for being the most listed in Notices - ie musicians and others contemplating doing business with him are advised that it would be most unwise. Perhaps the current crop of excusists would do as well to check out the Guardian article of some years ago that sets out in no uncertain terms exactly how this team is viewed. Although I have long since disposed of my copy I recall one quote from a representative of the MU that went something like: We have had more complaints about Mr Bulmer and his business paractices than for any other company or individual!" Take the change out of that.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam.
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM

Immorality is subjective, as this issue illustrates quite nicely.

Same old horse, duly flogged, lying dead on the road. I've no interest in the sanctimonious protestations, as we've all seen them here many times before.

G'day.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: treewind
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM

As Liam, this is not a sanctimonious protestation!
Neither is this comment.
Neither is rumour or hearsay.

Your patronizing whining about gullible performers not getting contracts drawn up properly does not apply here. If the terms of a contract are breached you have to take legal action if you want anything done about it.

As I mentioned a few messages back, it's all been said before, and some of us await the results with interest. It can take time...

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM

And musicians are not employees, and are not protected by employee legislation


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:09 PM

Well G'day to you Liam - or Dave, Neil, Ruth or Calum or whatever your name really is. From what you say you cannot appreciate the extent of the villainy perpetrated by the "good" folk at CM Records. From the final abruptness of your posting perhaps that will be the last we hear of your illinformed excuses for their behaviour.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM

Did I mention the horse was not only dead, but a rotting, putrefied corpse with a wretched stench?


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian Crossleigh
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:48 AM

Lets hope that you describe CM here Liam.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: *Laura*
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM

Quote - "Infinitum?
Hardly.
There is a finite (as in a handful or two) group of musicians who feel they weren't treated fairly.
Those same half soaked musicians couldn't be bothered hiring a solicitor to advocate for their own business interests, now or at the time they signed with Bulmer. Hence the well orchestrated campaign (which includes certain posters to these threads) to beat seven shades of shit out of him instead.
Thing is, it turned me off forever to those musicians, some of whom I thought were above that sort of thing. "

and

Quote - "if those musicians had bothered to educate themselves about the industry they were attempting to make a living in,"

How dare you??

Maybe you should think about some of those musicians allegedly 'uneducated' in the industry. And maybe you should get your facts straight before they fall out of your mouth.

Or maybe you should just not say anything at all.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:06 PM

Or maybe you should go piss up a rope, Laura dear.

There is no reason why a professional musician shouldn't be expected to know the most basic rules of the game of their industry, just like anyone else entering the work force. Do barbers need to know the laws regarding their licensure? Answer: yes.

Why hold musicians to a different standard? Because they are "special"?

What a load of shite.


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Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Dave Lawrence.
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:50 PM

Guest Liam. Your foul mouthed advocacy of Bulmer would do credit to the man himself.
Bulmer presented himself to those who signed with him as a friend and fellow musician, not as a music mogul, Bulmer and his odious sidekick broke the terms of these agreements, not the artists. Trust, foolish though it may be, was paramount in folk music at this time.
These Bulmer threads may be tiresome to some, but if they serve to warn off only one potential victim I beleive them to have been worthwhile.
    I think it's time to close this thread and let things cool down for a while.
    Feel free to start another thread if there's a need.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer-


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