mudcat.org: Lyr Add: Mary Hamilton (Hally Wood)
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Lyr Add: Mary Hamilton (Hally Wood)

DigiTrad:
FOUR MARY'S
MARY HAMILTON
MARY HAMILTON (2)
MARY MILD
THE FOUR MARIES


Related threads:
(origins) The Four Marys - who were they really? (95)
(origins) Origins: Mary Hamilton - meanings (28)
Tune Req: Jeannie Robertson's Mary Hamilton tune (2)
Four Maries - 2 missing lines in DT (7)
Lyr Req: Four Marys (from Jean Ritchie) (8)
Four Mary's Good Version on CD (17)
Mary Mild (Mary Hamilton) (6)
Lyr/Chords Req: Four Marys (12)


John Minear 27 Feb 04 - 02:56 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 28 Feb 04 - 03:32 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 04 - 03:35 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 04 - 04:27 PM
John Minear 28 Feb 04 - 04:30 PM
Sandy Paton 28 Feb 04 - 08:00 PM
Art Thieme 28 Feb 04 - 10:47 PM
johnross 29 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM
John Minear 29 Feb 04 - 11:25 AM
Sandy Paton 29 Feb 04 - 04:29 PM
John Minear 29 Feb 04 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Hally Wood's daughter. 25 Jul 04 - 04:18 AM
Mudlark 25 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM
katlaughing 25 Jul 04 - 02:19 PM
dick greenhaus 25 Jul 04 - 05:29 PM
Tannywheeler 27 Jul 04 - 01:03 AM
Joybell 27 Jul 04 - 07:34 PM
John Minear 28 Jul 04 - 09:29 AM
John Minear 28 Jul 04 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,leeneia 28 Jul 04 - 02:11 PM
Sandy Paton 29 Jul 04 - 02:08 AM
Desert Dancer 25 Sep 04 - 12:22 AM
GUEST 19 Nov 04 - 02:12 AM
John Minear 14 Oct 05 - 11:46 AM
Jim McLean 14 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM
John Minear 14 Oct 05 - 03:08 PM
Jim McLean 14 Oct 05 - 04:23 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Oct 05 - 04:36 PM
John Minear 15 Oct 05 - 07:29 PM
John Minear 17 Oct 05 - 07:33 AM
Jim McLean 17 Oct 05 - 11:35 AM
Teribus 17 Oct 05 - 04:54 PM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Oct 05 - 06:38 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 05 - 07:57 AM
Tam the man 22 Oct 05 - 08:06 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:




Subject: Lyr Add: MARY HAMILTON (from Peggy Seeger/H Wood)
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:56 PM

On Volume 4 of Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger's series BLOOD AND ROSES, a collection of "traditional ballads from Scotland and North America", Peggy sings an unaccompanied version of "Mary Hamilton" (Child 173). She says that, "I learned this song from the singing of that magnificent Texas woman, Hally Wood. It is rather moving to think of a Texas singer telling the story of a doomed woman moving down ancient Edinburgh streets and laughing on the steps of Parliament..."

The text, which is somewhat unique, follows. The tune is quite different from the one that I am familiar with, which is the one sung by Jeannie Robertson, Texas Gladden, Joan Baez and others. Wood's variant is not listed in Bronson, and so far I have been unable to find it either in print or recorded anywhere else. In a personal communication from Peggy, she says, "I learned it from a cassette that she made and sent." But she could provide no other information on it.

Does anybody know anything about this version? I am sorry, but I don't have the capacity to include the tune. Perhaps there is someone else out there who can do that if they have access to BLOOD AND ROSES, Vol. 4. I have compared Wood's version with the ones in the Max Hunter collection from Arkansas and it is different from those. I don't have access at the moment to Randolph. Wood's version is also different from a version from Texas that Bronson does include from Owen. I think that Bronson's work was all published by 1972. The copywrite date on BLOOD AND ROSES is 1986. It's possible that Bronson was not aware of this version.

Here is the text of "Mary Hamilton", as sung by Peggy Seeger, which she received from Hally Wood:
^^
My mother was a brave woman,
A brave woman and bold;
She sent me to the queen's court
When scarce eleven years old.

The queen's meat was so sweet,
The wine it was so fine,
That I had lain in the old king's arms
And rued it all sin syne.

News is to the kitchen
News has come to me
That Mary Hamilton's borne a babe
And thrown him in the sea.

Down came the old queen
Gold tassels round her head;
Mary Hamilton, where's the babe
That lay all in your bed?

Mary, put on your robe of black,
Put on your robe of brown;
Mary, come along with me
To ride to Edinburgh town.

She didn't put on the black, the black,
She didn't put on the brown.
She put on her brightest white
To ride to Edinburgh town.

As she rode up the Canongate
The Canongate rode she;
The ladies leaned over their casements
And wept for that lady.

As she walked up the Parliament Stairs
A loud, loud laugh gave she.
When she walked down the Parliament Stairs
She was condemned to die.

Go bring me the red wine,
The reddest that may be;
I'll drink a toast to the sailory boys
Who brought me over the sea.

Last night I washed the old queen's feet,
Put gold round her hair;
Today she gave me my reward
The gallows to be my share.

They'll put a kerchief round my eyes
They'll never more let me see;
They'll never let on to my mammy and my daddy
I died way over the sea.

Last night there were four Maries,
Tonight there'll be but three;
There's Mary Seaton and Mary Beaton,
Mary Carmichael and me.

I've searched Mudcat for Hally Wood, but didn't turn up very much. I also looked at the "Mary Hamilton" threads and skimmed through the Peggy Seeger threads. I didn't find any references to this particular version of this song. My Google search did not turn up anything either.

I'd appreciate any information anyone might have on this. Thanks.
T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:32 PM

T.O.M- I could write a long, long article about Hally Wood, a wonderful singer with a great husky voice, a fine musician, an energetic, sweet person. I haven't the time now, but ask me in mid-March and there'll be more time I hope. She died a few years ago, of cancer, but was a very important cog in the folklore wheel while she was with us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:35 PM

If you skip the first few verses and start with the one beginning "Word is to the kitchen..." the words are very like those sung by the Patons. I learned their version because I liked both tune and words much better than the usual ones, and because I think it's a great story. The problem with a version that people have heard a lot is I think they stop hearing it, and then when they hear a different version the story surprises them all over again.

wg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:27 PM

There is also a great version by a little known singer who lived (and perhaps still does) named Winifred Smith on RCA. She has a beautiful voice for this type of song. I think the recording is an old one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:30 PM

Thanks, Kytrad, I would like to know more about Hally Wood. Are her songs collected anywhere? I believe she made at least one record, perhaps for Elektra, but I haven't found any information about it. I hope that you will write something on her later on.

Wg, I don't know the version by the Paton's. Where would I find it and do you know where they found it? Or, Sandy, maybe you could tell us directly?    T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:00 PM

Guest "WG" mentions that Caroline (she's my wife) sings the version she learned from Hally Wood, which is true. But when we recorded some of Hally's songs and ballads here at Folk-Legacy (she had long been one of our favority singers) she sang the Mary hamilton without those two introductory verses. hally was having a lot of trouble with her voice and her breathing when she visited us, so we failed to get enough material for an album, hard as we tried. Later, when Hally was again living in Texas, she asked for and we gave her all of the tapes that we had made of her singing. She then made an LP of her own, using what we had given her and some additional recordings made at her home. It was at that time that she added the two opening verses to those she had recorded here.
    Hally made two solo LPs (10 inch): one for Stinson Records and one for Elektra (if memory serves). Kytrad will surely remember them -- one was called simply "Texas Folk Songs" and the other had the ominous title: "Oh, Lovely Appearance of Death." She may also be heard doing a couple of songs on the Rounder recording of a musical play that Lomax produced about the Martins and the Coys (again, I'm relying on my less than reliable memory). At the end of the CD, there are a few songs by Lily Mae Ledford and a couple by Hally. Aside from these, the only recording of Hally that I can think of is the "Bad Girl's Lament" (Texas Gladden's version) that was included on the Folkways album "The Unfortunate Rake," a collection of versions of that song, along with a number of parodies of it.
    Hally was active in the early revival of folksong interest in New York -- the days of the Almanac Singers, with whom she also sang. She transcribed the music for some of Alan Lomax's early publications. She was a glorious (!) singer, but the cancer that finally killed her did some destructive things to both her voice and her lungs toward the end of her life. A great loss to all of us who loved her and her music.
    When she left here (Folk-Legacy), she sold a sweet little Martin classical guitar to me for Caroline to use. Rick Fielding has played it and could tell you what a lovely instrument it is. It has lived with us now for over thirty years. Right now, our fifteen year old granddaughter is learning to play it. Life goes on, somehow.
    Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:47 PM

So very many old friends are here in this good thread...

I do remember that Hally Wood was on some live HOOTENANNY AT CARNEGIE HALL albums on Folkways Records-----now Smithsonian Folkways. She might've done one or two songs on those. Possibly: "Come And Go With Me To That Land Where I'm Bound"---sung with the whole group. Boy, that was a long time ago. I think I was just out of high school. Also there was Tony Kraber, Memphis Slim and Wee Willy Dixon, Pete Seeger (maybe)---- Was it Tony Kraber who did that really strange and drawn-out version of "Blood On The Saddle"??? I think it was.

Art Thieme


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: johnross
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM

Hally Wood also shows up on a forgettable LP called "Goin' Down to Town" by The Skifflers (Epic LC 3391), later re-issued on Columbia as "Hootenanny" (Columbia HL-7307). The other Skifflers are identified on the label as Lee Charles, Libby Knight and Milt Okun. Hally Wood wrote the liner notes, and the songs are all more or less traditional.

Based on the catalog number and the cover art, I'm guessing it was issued around 1962, give or take a couple of years. It was probably an effort by somebody at Epic to cash in on the popularity of Kingston Trio-like trios and quartets, before the market for real folk music emerged. They probably decided to do a folk quartet album, and then went out and hired the singers for the session.

For all that, it's a pleasant enough record.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:25 AM

Sandy, thanks for all of this good information and history. Where could I find Caroline's recording of "Mary Hamilton", and is it still available? Also, do you know if her tune is the same as the one that Peggy Seeger uses on BLOOD AND ROSES, Vol. 4? Do you remember if Hally Wood mentioned anything about the source of her version, and do you know if her recorded version was every published and on which album? Lots of questions. I am especially interested to know if Hally Wood learned her version from another revival singer, or if it came out of family tradition or local Texas tradition, or if she got it from a printed source.

Art and johncross, thanks for the additional information. T.O.M. (I loved that version of "Blood on the Saddle"!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 04:29 PM

T.O.M.:
    Caroline hasn't recorded the ballad, although she would like to do so. Maybe we'll get around to it some day before our creeping antiquity gets the better of us.
    I've set Caroline to work trying to locate two things: the LP that Hally produced on her own that included her singing of the ballad, and the addres of Hally's daughter who may have some left-over sopies you could get ahold of. If there are absolutely none available, and Caroline can come up with our copy (buried among a couple thousand old LPs in our cluttered living room), we could make you a cassette of it. I have also asked her to try to remember if Hally told her anything about the source of the melody she used. Give her some time to work on these things. Send me a PM with your address, etc. We'll see what we can do.
    She's also trying to dig out our copy of the "Blood and Roses" LP to compare Peggy's melody with the one Hally gave us. It's gotta be there in the pile. I should explain: our "living room" used to be the hay mow of the remodeled barn we live in. It's a two-story 50' by 30' and we don't try to heat it in the winter (it has a separate furnace). We moved most of the old LP collection into it last fall, to make way for the CDs that are demanding more space in our current "play lists." When we moved all of that old vinyl, the carefully maintained library system in which she kept it went to hell in a breadbasket. I fear that Caroline's assignments will not be promptly completed. Sort of like Bush's Air National Guard service in 1972. (hah!)
    Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:44 PM

Sandy,we'll look forward to whatever you and Caroline may turn up on this. There's no rush. Thanks again for your efforts. T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: GUEST,Hally Wood's daughter.
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 04:18 AM

Mother always credited the unusual tune you're discussing to a Scottish (? British?) collector whose last name I don't remember right now. His first 2 initials are A. C.
For the Paton's I can be reached at: ctfryland@hotmail.com. I'm kinda loooowwww tech, so you'll just have to type it out somewhere. But we recently actually acquired a new computer (CPU, monitor, keyboard, printer, and 6 mos. free aol internet) so we're able to connect to modern society if they want us. I just found this site. Wish I could have known sooner.
johnross:   "Goin' Down To Town" came out before 1958, but not much -- '56 or '57. That group of people worked for quite a while on lots of stuff. The rec. co. decided to add instrument tracks and would not take advice on what would be appropriate. The group appeared -- in '57 or '58? -- on the Today show. Some advertiser liked them and had them do a jingle which paid them for a bit. The other members of the group were marvelous, interesting, multi-talented folks. Milt Okun produced for John Denver for a while. "Lee Charles" is/was(?) a singer/actor who also appeared in a musical version of Tom Sawyer (theater on Second Avenue) called "Livin' The Life". And other stuff. I wish I knew where these folks are now. My gratitude for their graciousness knows no bounds.
There is another album, self-published in the late 1970s, to which Sandy P. refers, titled "Songs To Live By". Only regular vinyl LPs made. I still have some. Wish I could put 'em out in another format.
Okay, it is wonderful to get into a group who loves my mother, but who ARE all you folks? When I sign this I will try to use the instruction at the bottom to make "links", but read the email address in the note to the Patons above. I'm getting weepy. Gotta go. Cynthia (Cindy) Tannehill (Tanne) Faulk Ryland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Mudlark
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

Oh, I love the Mudcat! Thanks so much for responding, Cindy. It is wonderful to hear from you. Tho I've been singing traditional folk music for nearly 50 years I'm sorry to say I'd not heard of your Mom before this thread appeared. But the history and background is music to my ears.

There is a way to re-record to CD format older forms such as LP's and tapes. You might PM Katlaughing...she just had some of her Dad's music so transcribed, and it's not all that expensive. ( Or click on the PM following my name and I will act as go-between...I'm pretty low-tech myself!).   I would be very interested in a Hally Wood CD.

Welcome to the Mudcat...I hope you will stay, and post often.

Nancy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:19 PM

May I second the welcome, Cindy? We are just a bunch of folks from around the world who appreciate good folk and blues music, as well as discussions on just about anything under the sun, but the best are those like this thread which continue the tradition of sharing knowledge (history, origins, etc.) of the old songs.

Mudlark is referring to wilbyhillbilly's service: VinylTransfer

You may read some testimonials and other info about him and his service in this Mudcat thread: CLICK HERE.

Glad you stopped by. If you choose to join up, it's FREE and we don't give any lists to the "gummint," you can exchange personal messages with other members, etc.

All the best,

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 05:29 PM

To Hally's Daughter--
Cindy-
If you're interested, CAMSCO Music has launched a project consisting of recovering (as best we can) out-of-print recordings and re-issuing them as CDs. It won't cost anything up front, and I'm sure we can work out an amicable set of fees to you--I realize that a venture of this sort is never going to make much money, but it won't lose any either. If you think you might be interested, give me a ring (my dime) at 800/548-FOLK <3655>. I've been a huge fan of your mother's for the past half-century or so, and I'd love to get them out where folks can hear them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 01:03 AM

Especially for the Patons: Sandy and/or Caroline I'm still here and have an email address. It is: ctfryland@hotmail.com. We should talk.

I am really flabbergasted. In spite of how my early life was immersed in all of this kind of endeavor, most of the people I seem to meet now never heard of this kind of music. It feels good to see important stuff get talked about again. Thanks, guys.

When I went ahead and signed up in this club (?) I chose as my Mudcat name Tannywheeler, because that's what Woody used to call me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Joybell
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:34 PM

I first heard Mary Hamilton sung by Australian singer and actor Lional Long. It was before I found Child, and before we got Joan Baez's recording of it here. Long's version is unremarkable (it's among Child's versions) except that he sings it in a very much faster time - a sort of swingy waltz. Because of the contrast it makes the story seem even more tragic. He sings as his first verse:

Mary Hamilton to the Kirk is gone
With ribbons in her hair
The King thought more of this Mary
Than any that were there.

This gives you images of a happy festive scene, full of dancing and colour which of course can't last - as we all know. Joy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 09:29 AM

Welcome to Mudcat, Cindy/Tannywheeler. It's wonderful to hear from you. When I asked Peggy Seeger about this version of "Mary Hamilton" and where your mother might have found this tune, she said that I should try to get in touch with you. And here you are!

    Your Mother's song is a very interesting version of "Mary Hamilton". Do you know if she learned the song with this tune or if she picked up the tune and put it to these old words?

    Does anyone out there in Mudcatland know this tune in any other context? I know that that is a very frustrating question because I have no way of giving you this tune. You'll have to find a copy of Peggy Seeger's version mentioned above, which is almost impossible to do. But on the off chance someone has access to Vol. 4 of BLOOD & ROSES, I'm asking. Maybe someone could even put the tune on Mudcat.

    Also, does anybody have a clue about who "A.C....." might be? Could that possibly be "A.L." instead of "A.C."?   Has anyone heard a version like this in England or Scotland? I just keep asking the questions and am always interested in what they turn up.

    It's good to have you with us, Cindy.    T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 09:32 AM

One other question that I meant to ask you, Cindy, is do you know whether you Mother ever recorded her version of "Mary Hamilton" and if so, where? I, too, would love to see the reissue of her records. T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:11 PM

It was a good moment for me when I came upon a version of Mary Hamilton in a book and read that nothing like the events in the song ever happened.

Let us keep in mind that the words are nothing but anti-Catholic propaganda ("They have illicit babies and bury them in the dark of night.") and could be a couple centuries later than the time of Mary Queen of Scots.

I wonder why anybody bothered to make the scandal up, considering how wretched Mary's life and reign actually were. Plenty of historical material to work with...

The tune, now, is a beauty. I wish someone who is good at poetry would set a worthy poem to that tune.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 02:08 AM

Cindy:
    Caroline is asleep, otherwise I would get her here to enter into this conversation! I was just taking a very quick scan of the Mudcat before going to sleep myself, and found your communication. How great to hear from you!
    We have to load up our camper and head up to the Champlain Valley Folk Festival tomorrow, so we won't be able to get back to you until we return -- maybe as late as Tuesday. When we get a moment, we'll reach you at your personal e-mail address.
    As for Dick Greenhaus' offer -- it's a good one and worth your consideration. I'd suggest the use of a good restoration program and technician, however. We've used Bill Gulvin, and he's terrific. I've also heard wonderful reports about the work of KatLaughing's friend "wilbyhillbilly." The CD-R products Dick Greenhaus offers on Camsco are keeping some music alive that would otherwise be lost. He's the co-creator of the Digital Tradition, you know, and I can assure you that he is trustworthy. We work with him frequently at festivals, etc.
    I'll be back in touch with you early next week.
    Sandy (Folk-Legacy's resident folk fogey)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:22 AM

Refresh, since Hally's daughter (Tannywheeler) is checking in lately. I think I missed this on the first go round.

Did you folks follow up?

~ Becky in Tucson


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: action
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:12 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 11:46 AM

Well, my friends, some mysteries do unravel a bit over time! My original question in this thread was: "Where did Hally Wood's version of "Mary Hamilton" come from?" The only record of that version that I knew about was Peggy Seeger's recording on BLOOD & ROSES, Vol.4. I was in Peggy's ballad class at Augusta, in Elkins, West Virginia, this summer and we discussed this question, but she did not have any new information at that time.

   This week I got my copy of The Heritage Muse's digital version of THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS, and after spending most of the week trying to figure out how to access it on my antique computer, I finally succeeded last night. This morning I was checking out the tunes that Child included, which you can actually listen to in this program. My big problem is that I do not know how to read music and I also do not know how to put tunes up on Mudcat. There is one tune listed for "Mary Hamilton", and guess what! It is the tune used by Hally Wood! And the text that Hally Wood uses finds its origin here too, although it has obviously been collated with other versions and modernized and Americanized.

   The version is Child's "J" version taken from "Mrs. Harris and others." It is in Vol. III, p. 394, in my old Dover edition. You will find the tune in Vol. V, p.421. You will find it in Bronson, Vol. 3, p. 152, as the only example of his "Group C", where it is numbered "5". Bronson says, "From Mrs. Amelia Harris; learned from an old nurse during childhood in Perthshire, late eighteenth century. Noted by her daughter."

   My conclusion at this point is that someone took Child J, with the tune, and collated a more complete version of the story with other texts, modernized the English and gave it an American flavor, ending up with a very nice version in its own right, but probably not one that we would "traditionally call traditional". The question now is, did Hally Wood create this version herself, or did she learn it from someone else who had already done the work, perhaps "someone in England"? It is curious to me that this version as such seems to never have turned up any place else other than in BLOOD & ROSES, and has never been recored that I know about other than by Peggy Seeger. If it was created by someone in England, wouldn't someone else over there be aware of it? The mystery continues... T.O.M.

   Addendum: I am not being critical of this effort in a negative sense. I am trying to take a "historical critical" approach to this particular version and trace its lineage, points of origin, and development.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

There are three melodies in the Digitrad, Old Turtle Man. The first one is the more common one sung in Scotland (and elsewhere) so is the tune in question either maryham3 or maryham4 or entirely different?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:08 PM

Jim, I have listened to all three of the Digitrad melodies and the Hally Wood/Amelia Harris one is quite different. I'm sorry I can't put it on here somehow. Again, it is on the Peggy Seeger recording on BLOOD & ROSES, Vol. 4, and in the Digital Child package from Heritage Muse. I should add that it is not on the CD that comes with the Heritage product, but embedded as midi within the Child Volumes. Folks need to bug Peggy Seeger about getting both the BLOOD & ROSES collection and the LONG HARVEST collection reissued. T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:23 PM

Sorry, Turtle Old Man, I got your name wrong. I'll try and listen to Peggy's version.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Tune Add: MARIE HAMILTON (Amelia and Jane Harris)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:36 PM

X:1
T:Marie Hamilton
S:Amelia and Jane Harris, 1873.
B:Bronson III, 173.5 p 152
N:Harris MS no.9; text, fol. 10 b.
N:Child 173(J); Roud 79
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:4/4
K:C
B | c3 d e3 e | ed c2 B3 B |
B3 g/g/ ed B2 | HA6 B2 | c2 c2 B3 d |
A3 G E3 d | e3 c B2 G2 | HA6 z |]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 07:29 PM

Malcolm, Thanks very much for putting the tune information up for us. I am curious to know if Hally Wood's version of this ballad has ever shown up in England, or if anyone else has ever heard this tune recorded before and used by anyone else. T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 07:33 AM

I am refreshing this since a lot of ballad folks have been away this past weekend at the 2005 Getaway and I would be interested in their input. Has anyone heard this tune used before and does anyone know if it has been recorded? And has anyone ever come across this particular version - Hally Wood's version - anywhere? T.O.M.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 11:35 AM

I listened to the tune supplied by Malcolm but haven't heard it before.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:54 PM

Maybe Greg or Jim could shed more light on the matter, but I was once told that within the lyrics there are two songs, both about Mary Hamiltons but the historical context is widely seperated.

'Mary Hamilton' which normally starts:
Oh word intae the kitchens come
And word intae the Hall
That Mary Hamilton's borne a child
Tae the highest Stuart of a'

Is about a lady in waiting at the Scottish Court of one of the James's (II or IV). In the version of this song that I know the Queen engineers Mary Hamilton's death for infanticide and the King offers her pardon which she refuses

'The Four Mary's' which normally starts with a chorus:
Yestreen the Queen had four Marys
The nicht she'll hae but three
There was Mary Beaton and Mary Seaton
And Mary Carmichael and thee'

Is about four Scottish noblewomen who attended the court of and were ladies in waiting to Catherine The Great of Russia. In this song the hapless Mary Hamilton is accused of theft and hung, the being sung from the perspective of Mary Hamilton's servant who must carry the tidings home.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hally Wood's 'Mary Hamilton'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 06:38 PM

Whoever told you that had probably just misunderstood somebody else's summary of the admittedly complicated background. See the other discussions listed at the top of this page for details; particularly The Four Mary's - who were they really?

It might be best if we stick to the specifics of this particular thread, and post anything on the historical background to the other; if there's anything useful to add to it that hasn't already been said, that is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mary Hamilton (from Hally Wood)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 07:57 AM

Fascinatin'!

Would anyone who has access to Peggy's/Hally's Blood and Roses version like to put an ABC of the tune up on this thread for us?

That would, I think, help us all sort out the matter. And I'd like to "hear" it for myself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mary Hamilton (from Hally Wood)
From: Tam the man
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 08:06 AM

I would love to think that Mary Hamilton was an anscetor of mine, somehow I don't think so.

Tom Hamilton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 29 January 5:54 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.