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BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...

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BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson (54) (closed)


InOBU 19 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 08:53 AM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM
artbrooks 19 Feb 04 - 09:47 AM
Bobjack 19 Feb 04 - 09:56 AM
Dave Hanson 19 Feb 04 - 10:05 AM
Bobjack 19 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 10:24 AM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 11:21 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM
Grab 19 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 12:46 PM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 12:48 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 12:52 PM
Amergin 19 Feb 04 - 01:16 PM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 01:21 PM
Amergin 19 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM
Chief Chaos 19 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 01:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM
Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 02:17 PM
Amergin 19 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM
The Shambles 19 Feb 04 - 02:59 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM
Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 03:44 PM
GUEST 19 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM
Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 03:54 PM
Walking Eagle 19 Feb 04 - 04:26 PM
Strick 19 Feb 04 - 04:33 PM
michaelr 19 Feb 04 - 04:37 PM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 04:47 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM
Cluin 19 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM
Gareth 19 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM
Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 07:55 PM
dianavan 19 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM
Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 04 - 09:41 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 10:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 04 - 10:50 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 11:11 PM
GUEST 19 Feb 04 - 11:31 PM
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Subject: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM

Mel Gibson's dad said on radio last night, there was not enough gas to "cremate" six million Jews in Germany... Jews are seeking to control the Catholic church and set up a one world religion and government, Greenspan (the Fed Ecconomic chief) should be hung... Well... Mel Gibson has once said his father never lied to him... Kind'a makes you understand where he's coming from with racist films like "Patriot" and a film where the Jewish people killed Christ and Pontius Pilot was a nice guy who was forced to do it...
Oh my...
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:53 AM

So the jewish people didnt kill christ?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM

Not that I'm arguing but what about the Patriot was racist? I don't remember it that well just that it was historicaly inacurate, and made the americans look like they won.Oh yeah and the bad acting.

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:47 AM

Raptor, Jesus was condemned by the Roman's puppet government in Jerusalem and executed by the Roman army.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Bobjack
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:56 AM

Chill people. Old folks say the strangest things............... just read most of these threads to see what I mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:05 AM

Who you calling old, Katie.
eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Bobjack
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM

You! You bugger! I bet you are old and grizzled and have a beard. Go on then, deny it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:24 AM

Not this bullshit, again. On offence, but anyone who seriously entertains the idea that six million didn't get murdered or that the Romans didn't kill Christ probably has a really sore back, because he's got his foot in his mouth and his head up his ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:21 AM

Mel contends that his script was The Bible!

I haven't read it, Mabey I should.

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM

I bet he doesn't believe Stalin murdered ten million Russians either. I'm not going to ask him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM

If you read the Bible, this is what you will find:

1. Jesus was himself a Jew.

2. He preached to the Jewish population in what is now Israel/Palestine/etc...and he also preached to anyone else who would listen, which included Romans, Samaritans, and so on...

3. Rome was running Palestine politically and militarily, and was in charge of legal matters, such as trying, imprisoning, and executing people.

4. The Jewish clergy was in charge of religious matters as pertaining to the Jewish population of the region...this included religious laws, customs, rituals, and so on.

5. The most bitter and deadly enemies of Jesus were the hardliners among that Jewish clergy, the scribes and pharisees. They were the people who hated Jesus and wanted him dead. Why? Because he was changing and greatly liberalizing the Jewish religion, and many common people were following him. Most of those common people were Jews.

6. The people whom Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for were the scribes and pharisees. He accused them (rightly) of hypocrisy, of using their exalted postion in society strictly for their own gain, of not serving God or humanity. He was dead right.

7. The highest council of the pharisees, commanded by Caiphas, decided that Jesus had to die...although he had committed no civil crime. They did not have legal authority to execute him, but the Roman governor did. Therefore, they had to convince the Roman governor that Jesus should be executed.

8. These same pharisees arranged for Jesus to be falsely accused of various crimes, arrested, and brought before the Roman governor (they also had him brought before Herod, a Jewish bigwig of the time, but Herod passed the buck to the Roman governor).

9. The Roman governor, Pilate, interviewed Jesus. He investigated the situation as best he could. His conclusions were that Jesus had committed no crimes against anyone and was an innocent man. He suggested to the Jewish clergy that Jesus should not be executed. They went berserk. They demanded in the strongest terms that Jesus should be executed. Pilate, after some soul-searching, decided that it was politically safer to execute one innocent man than face a possible insurrection in Palestine, which was already a very rebellious and difficult province of Rome. He gave in, reluctantly. He symbolically washed his hands, so as to say, "his blood is not on my hands, but yours" (directing that toward the Jewish clergy).

10. So...the Romans did the actual physical and legal actions necessary to carry out the crucifixion of Christ, because they were the only authority empowered to do so. They did not initiate the accusation against him, were not the moral force behind his condemnation, and had no particular ax to grind in the matter whatsoever.

To say that "the Romans killed Jesus" may be literally true. To say that the Jewish scribes and pharisees killed Jesus is a whole lot closer to the heart of the issue. The Romans were the finger that pulled the trigger...the Jewish scribes and pharisees were the accusing and hating mind that directed that finger to pull the trigger. Where does the greatest responsibility lie?

Furthermore! Most of Jesus most dedicated supporters and followers were Jews and Jesus was a Jew. So if some rich, powerful Jews (scribes and pharisees) decide to falsely accuse a Jewish prophet and conspire to have him killed against the wishes of still other (but not so rich and powerful) Jews...HOW THE HELL does depicting that factually add up to anti-semitism???

If all Mel Gibson has done is to depict factually what is already in the Bible, he is not attacking Jews. If someone chooses to interpret the story in such a way as to find justification in it to condemn ALL Jews then that someone is not playing with a full deck...nor is the person who thinks that such a depiction is anti-semitic either.

As for Mel Gibson's father, yeah, he may well be a holocaust denier. Does that necessarily have anything to do with this movie? Maybe...and maybe not. Why not read the Bible, see the movie, and then decide for yourself?

Jews are exactly like all other people. They do good things and they do bad things. They may be hero or villain. They are not cut from a single piece of cloth. To forget this is to descend into some kind of politically dictated insanity...and you see the results of that kind of purblind thinking in the Middle East on a daily basis...where Jews and Muslims treat each other like subhumans because they cannot look past the dark myth they carry in their minds about "the other".

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Grab
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM

My dad said "bloody gypsies, can't keep their hands of anything that's not nailed down". Although we love them dearly, our dads frequently come out with a right load of bollocks... ;-)

Re your other comment about MG's new film, check out the Bible. Paraphrasing: "Who do you want released?" "Barabbas!" "You sure?" "Hell, yeah!" As far as who actually killed him, the Roman army would obviously be doing it bcos they didn't have police back then.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:46 PM

So, Mel Gibson's Father is in denial. So? Mel Gibson has made his beliefs very clear, and they are diametrically opposed to his father's. Why try to tar and feather Gibson for his father's belief's? I'd hate to be judged by some of my Father's beliefs. Who knows... maybe my kids would rather not be judged by mine.

Seems like muddy water in here..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:48 PM

Stoning was the Jewish method of bumping someone off. Crucifixion was Roman. LH is right when he says that the Sanhedren wanted to get rid of the trouble maker. However, the phrasing that Jews killed Christ has been used by Christians to persecute Jews. So, maybe we go to the expression that the Sanhedren killed Christ with Roman help just as today we say that Nazis killed Jews, not Germans killed Jews.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:52 PM

Yeah, boy I would hate to be judged by my father's beliefs too. Guilt by association is not a premise I have much faith in. Read the bible. See the movie. Then decide what you think about it. The rest is mere rumour and conjecture.

I suspect that no one will ever succeed in making a movie about Jesus that doesn't upset a whole bunch of people who think they have a monopoly on Truth and Righteousness.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:16 PM

creating a controversy is a sure way of making sure the movie succeeds...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:21 PM

So the jewish people did kill Christ?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM

No, Raptor....the Canadians killed Christ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM

Those rotten Bastards. Thats it lets get them. Lousy, stinkin, canuck, good for nothing, hangashore, pricks, we otta...   Hey! Wait a minute...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM

Todays members of the Jewish faith did not "kill" Jesus in the same way that "I" did not harass, kill, enslave, etc. the African slaves or the native Americans.

But we are both cultures with those crimes written large upon our forebears. When asked by Pontious Pilot on the passover which of the prisoners he should spare, in accordance with the hebrew tradition, the people (those making up the population of the area, thus mostly Jews) responded "Give us Barabus", thereby condeming Jesus to the crucifiction.

This in no way should be construed as any reason whatsoever to harass, subjugate, despise or in any other way take things out on the Jews. Jesus new from the moment of sentience that that was exactly what was going to happen. God is after all omniscient.

Unfortunately the people who so oft proclaim to be Christians are likely to be the ones who show the least Christian attitude. I personnaly believe that Jesus, the Son of God, died for my sins, for all mankind to cleanse them of their sins, to forgive them of their transgressions against God. In that same way I can forgive the Romans and the Jews regardless of who nailed who to the cross.

There was a holocaust. It is undeniable. Millions of Jews, gypsies, and those that Hitler and the Reich found undesirable were murdered either by gas, by rifle shot, by starvation or by medical experimentation. May God be merciful to all of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM

I've always been suspicious of people who play polkas.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:55 PM

So Lawerence Welk Killed Christ?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM

Noone is responsible for their parents' views. And when someone says something like "My father never lied to me" they are talking about something rather more personal, not about cranky ideas they ight have had. ("Lying" in any case doesn't mean saying somethig which is false, it means saying you believe something is true, when in fact you really believe it to be false.)

The Gospel account of the Passion has Jesus killed by the Roman occupiers, with the support of some collaborators among the Jewish authorities and population. The kind you get in any occupied country. In the same way that the deportation of Jews and Gypsies from occupied countries under the German occupation was not done without the help of locals and local police and so forth.

The anti-semitic thing is to pretend that this somehow means that there is guilt for this resting on the Jewish people at that time or throughout the ages, any more than upon the people of Rome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:17 PM

Thank you Little Hawk, after reading the opening post I thought all that I recalled learning in Sunday School of what led to the crucifixion of Christ was, in fact, a figment of my imagination. I thought too, that perhaps the lady who who delivered a wacking great blow with a hymnal, to the back of my head when I was 5, during a service, because someone beside me had whispered something, had really inflicted a far harder hit, than I initially remembered.

My dear old mother of 83 has deteriorated into a racist old cow in her declining years. My brother and I believe it is because she has regressed mentally to the age when she first learned her beliefs, but it is hard to say, because she never espoused such crap to us when we were growing up.

Most recent event of many, was when her hot water tank sprung a leak and I sent for a plumber for her. She was aghast as she watched the fellow arrive in his van from her window, then turned to me and said in an outraged tone, "He's black!"

Not long after, we took her to a resturant for dinner, where she proceeded to tell all and sundry within earshot that she no longer watched much television as there were too many negroes on it.

Now I'm not saying that my mother has never lied to me. In fact I recall quite vividly, when I was small, that she told me my cat had run away, when in fact, my father had drowned her in our rain barrel because she was pregnant and my mother never told me the real circumstances of my cat's demise until many years later.

God knows what kind of stuff would come out of her mouth if she was ever interviewed or queried by someone in the media, I have no idea, but I'm damned certain if it were racist or anti-semetic, it certainly wouldn't reflect my brother's nor my beliefs and attitudes.

I have no idea what Mel Gibson's personal beliefs and attitudes are nor have I seen the movie. Film personalities and such, have never been much of a priority on my radar screen, unless they have entered politics, so for the time being, I will withold judgement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM

no no no...I'm sorry I was wrong before...it was Bill Clinton! Bill Clinton killed Christ! He is the one who endangered the soul of the American people with his satanic liberal ways! let's get Bill Clinton! Come on Boys! Maybe we could tie him up to three Nascar racers and have them go in three seperate directions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:59 PM

How do those stages go?

My dad knows everything....
Then-
Dad you know nothing....
Then-
As my dad used to say....

I wonder at what stage Mel Gibson is at with his dad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM

Mel Gibson, by the bye has stated his belief that Christ died on the cross for all of us so that our sins would be forgiven, and we would have a chance for salvation. He was pretty straigthforward about it.
He believes that he bears the guilt for Christ's death on the cross as much as anyone, because of his own sinfulness. That's quite a different interpretation of who killed Jesus than Mel's father. As far as Mel is concerned, he (Mel) did it.

Me too..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM

So Bill Clinton is a polka playing Canadian?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:44 PM

I think so Raptor, didn't he win a grammy or something like that, year after year, for his polka tunes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM

Mel Gibson and movies - still haven't forgiven him for "Braveheart" biggest load of crap I have ever had to endure in my life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:54 PM

oops Bill only won one, Walter won a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:26 PM

So Bill Clinton is a Canadian, Ozzy, American Christ killing polka dancer? Man! No wonder we Yanks could never figure out which Bill Clinton was talking to us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Strick
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:33 PM

"Mel Gibson, by the bye has stated his belief that Christ died on the cross for all of us so that our sins would be forgiven, and we would have a chance for salvation. He was pretty straigthforward about it."

Yep, that about covers it. Worrying about who was there at the time is a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:37 PM

Gibson told Diane Sawyer that he believes in the bible literally, which tells me he's got a screw loose. Seems to run in the family.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:47 PM

Bill Clinton was the guy who did for the cigar what Che Guevera did for the beret.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM

I guess we'd have to talk to Mel some and get him to expand a bit on that and explain his literal belief in the Bible. I suspect that if you got ten or twelve people together who all claimed a "literal" belief in the Bible, you'd still end up with them disagreeing about the meaning of many passages. The Bible isn't something you read once, like a radio assembly diagram. It's a life study.

brucie - No, Fidel Castro did that for the cigar! :-) Bill Clinton did it for the concept of someone having sex with you, but you not having it with them...at the same time...a concept so complex and subtle that it has to stand out among the most memorable philosophical ideas of all time.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM

(thread drift coming up...)

Interesting points, Little Hawk. But I've always had some questions.

So Jesus was a Jew. Did He practice Judaism? Was it important to Him? He drove the moneylenders from the Temple. So it seems it mattered to Him.

What was going on in the Temple? Animal sacrifice, until the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. So did Jesus believe in animal sacrifice?

Some believe He was to be considered the ultimate sacrifice for mankind's sins. But He didn't fit the bill according to Judaic custom: it wasn't a blood sacrifice (crucifixion death is by suffocation), He wasn't cloven-hoofed or cud-chewing (as far as we know), He wasn't unblemished (being circumcised), and He wasn't sacrificed by a high priest in the temple.

But if He really was an avatar as Christian doctrine asserts, it hardly seems to matter; what would, really? He could make up His own rules. Did He ever speak out against the blood sacrifices going on in the Temple?

Seems like there might be other questions to ask rather than the pointless one of "Who killed Christ?" when it was meant to happen anyway for atonement of mankind's supposed original sin (whatever THAT was).

Just wondering...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM

Cluin, we gotta get back to the important question here. It's about the aesthetics of hand-rolled cigars and sex. LH is onto something important. His idea opens new areas of the mind to conceptualizations that involve something other than blow-up dolls (speaking of which?) and tawdry thoughts of you know what. In fact, the thoughts are so tawdry that only Canadians would really understand them. Whew. He is an unsung genus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM

Mmmm ! So Belson was a "holiday home" - Well when XXX Corps drove north of Hanover in 1945 one of the first units in to Belson was 94th/63rd RA(Anti-Tank) J troop. (M10's, with the 17 pdr modification)

The commanding officer of J Troop, a Lt Williams, had some awkward moments, his troop Sgt used a 0.5" Browning MG to stop the SS Gaurds escaping.( At least that was the official verdict ).

Father suffered nightmares about what he found up until his death in 2001.

So please - No denial of the Holecaust. You dishonour the dead.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM

Well I think you've totally missed the point, Walter Ostanek is the polka king of Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM

My ex father-in-law spent three years in a camp. Anyone who says the holocaust didn't happen is a f#ckin' liar. That's as politely as I can put it.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:55 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the King of Polka will always be Louie Bashell and His Silk Umbrellas. When the Beatles hit, The Silk Umbrellas were still posting top ten hits in Milwaukee. Can't keep a good polka band down. Kinda like radishes.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM

So - Clinton did not polka da intern in Canada and it wasn't even sex?
It would logically follow that Jesus did not die for Canadian sins because they weren't even born then. Close, but no cigar. God created this whole mess so let him figger it out.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM

I think that's a very fair assesment dianavan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:41 PM

I think the roots of anti-semitism lie elsewhere. The "Jews killed Jesus" line has been essentially a cover-story for people who wanted to pick on the Jews for quite other reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM

The roots of anti-semitism may indeed go back in good measure to the earlier Christian churches' convenient interpretations of Jews as the condemners of Christ. I think it was a major factor in anti-Jewish feeling in the Middle Ages when the Church of Rome held tyrannical sway over all of Christendom. However, there were other reasons behind early anti-semitism. The Jews, like the Gypsies were a wandering people who lived in many lands as a despised and persecuted minority. They made good scapegoats. This tends to happen to wandering minorities who don't belong to the mainstream, and it happened in a big way in the Middle Ages. Anyone who didn't belong to the mainstream could expect to be periodically driven out or slaughtered just because they were different. Jews were also often moneylenders...which meant they were both valued...and hated. Typical situation of moneylenders in any society.

One would think that anyone who read the Bible with some care would realize that it's entirely inappopriate to blame all Jews for the death of Jesus...but how many people read the Bible with care? Most just relied on their priest or spiritual leader to do that for them and then TELL them what to believe, and what to do. Until Martin Luther changed the scene no common people whatsoever read the Bible...only monks and clerics did. Therefore the common people believed whatever tripe the priests decided to program them with.

But hey...gotta answer Cluin's questions! :-) Hmmmm...

So Jesus was a Jew. Did He practice Judaism? Was it important to Him? He drove the moneylenders from the Temple. So it seems it mattered to Him.

Yes, he practiced it. Absolutely. But he went a lot deeper into it than most people of the time ever would have. He most likely studied in the mystery schools in Egypt. Only a few very serious spiritual seekers did that, and it wasn't easy to even get in. He looked way beyond rote practice and ritual. At age 12 he saw deeper into the meaning of the sacred writings than the priests at his parents' place of worship! He astonished them. So, yes, Judaism was profoundly important to him...but the true spirit of it, not the outer forms. He drove the moneylenders from the temple as a symbolic act, cleansing a spiritual place of totally unspiritual concerns in a very obvious way. It took tremendous guts to do that, and what must have been tremendous force of personality...personal authority. I've seen a person like that in action. You don't forget it.

What was going on in the Temple? Animal sacrifice, until the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. So did Jesus believe in animal sacrifice?

I don't think he did. He never directed people to perform it, as far as I know. I may be wrong on that, though, I'm guessing. I'll have to look further into it. It seems to me that he said God was not impressed with burnt offerings.

Some believe He was to be considered the ultimate sacrifice for mankind's sins. But He didn't fit the bill according to Judaic custom: it wasn't a blood sacrifice (crucifixion death is by suffocation), He wasn't cloven-hoofed or cud-chewing (as far as we know), He wasn't unblemished (being circumcised), and He wasn't sacrificed by a high priest in the temple.

It doesn't matter if it didn't fit Judiaic custom. He was changing things radically, reforming the Jewish faith. His reforms were rejected by the prevailing power structure (which feared losing their power) and they had him killed. He did other things that didn't fit prevailing custom too...like healing people on the Sabbath (you were supposed to do no work of any kind on the Sabbath). It's an interesting story. The Jewish priests rebuked him for it, and he said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (powerful point!), and continued healing people.

But if He really was an avatar as Christian doctrine asserts, it hardly seems to matter; what would, really? He could make up His own rules. Did He ever speak out against the blood sacrifices going on in the Temple?

Exactly. It doesn't matter. He changed the rules as he went. Yes, he spoke out against blood sacrifices in this manner: he said that people should...Love God with all their heart, all their soul, all their mind, and all their strength. That that was the greatest commandment. That the second commandment was to love your neighbour (meaning any other human being) as much as you love yourself. And that if someone could do that, it added up to more than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices put together. The clear implication being: change your inner attitude of unlovingness and stop wasting your time burning animals' bodies up uselessly. Attend to your inner self rather than engaging in valueless outer rituals. That really is the message of his whole ministry...change your inner state of mind...become a new and loving person inside. If you do, you'll change on the outside too, and profoundly. No need to burn any animals.

Seems like there might be other questions to ask rather than the pointless one of "Who killed Christ?" when it was meant to happen anyway for atonement of mankind's supposed original sin (whatever THAT was).

Yup. It is pointless to ask "who killed Christ?". The point is to ask, "Why did they?" and "What was Christ actually demonstrating and saying to people, and what does that mean now to me?"

Only if you want to, of course... :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:30 PM

Good discourse, LH. If you believe what Christ taught, his crucifixion was ordained. He spoke about it long before he made his triumphant (to be crucified) entrance into Jerusalem. He was crucified for a reason.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:50 PM

"...when the Church of Rome held tyrannical sway over all of Christendom."

That was never true actually, even setting aside that rather polemical terminology. "Christendom" covers the Eastern Church as well as the Western.

Which comes first the chicken or the egg? Having a pseudo-religiuous excuse for wiping out your debts by killing the person to whom you owe money, for example, must have been very convenient at times. When diverting a mob to a scapegoat so that they leave your property alone, it comes in handy too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:11 PM

Quite right, McGrath. I had western Europe in my mind, and forgot all about the guys in Constantinople.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:31 PM

The Jewish "untruths" (such examples as a Rabi testifying to finger-nail scratchs on the "gas-chamber" doors of Dachu)



Have led more than a smattering-of-anti-semites to conclude that "big money" "old money" fuels the fires of Mordor for personal gain...and personal pride.....while in the historical wings, patiently sits Hubris .... soon to command center stage ....perhaps bringing on an overcooked course of baked-crow.


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