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Worst singing accent.

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Joe Offer 05 Jul 18 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Observer 05 Jul 18 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 05 Jul 18 - 04:06 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 05 Jul 18 - 03:22 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 03:13 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 02:37 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,02lame 05 Jul 18 - 02:25 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Observer 05 Jul 18 - 10:16 AM
Jack Campin 05 Jul 18 - 09:59 AM
keberoxu 05 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Jam Today 05 Jul 18 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Roger 04 Jul 18 - 02:44 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 12:56 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 12:41 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Roger 04 Jul 18 - 11:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 04 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,keberoxu 04 Jul 18 - 10:35 AM
Jeri 04 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 05:33 AM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 04 Jul 18 - 02:21 AM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 12:46 AM
StephenH 03 Jul 18 - 10:57 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 01:44 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 12:17 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Jimmy Riddle 03 Jul 18 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 03 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Peter Plum 03 Jul 18 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Hedge Accentor 03 Jul 18 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 03 Jul 18 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Karen 03 Jul 18 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 03 Jul 18 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:28 PM

I hate to have to start doing this, but I guess I must. This thread has become unpleasant because of all the personal insults. Thread closed.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 04:29 PM

Jim Carroll, Date: 05 Jul 18 - 11:35 AM

YOU may regard MacColl as some sort of God to be worshipped and adored - that is YOUR opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it.

Just as I am ENTITLED to my own opinion of a man about whom, on examination, everything is false.

Stick to the content of posts, I am not interested in your opinions and remarks about those actually posting.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 04:06 PM

Hang on a minute of course Dick is going to defend singers he likes, weather they are dead or alive. How is that wrong?
McColl was as described above (very eloquently). If some of the traditional singers I have known over the years were to have witnessed him singing in a non existent Scots accent sitting back to front on his chair with his hand clamped over one ear, they would have thought he had serious mental problems. I have worked with and been taught by Traditional singers from the Gypsy community from the Southern counties and from Lancashire, and I never met one singer who did not know how to enjoy themselves when singing. It's supposed to be a pleasure, not a political platform, not a search for fame, not a springboard to 'better' things in show business, not about moneymaking and not about winning Grammy awards, not about getting MBE's, but making people laugh, cry, and empathise but above all sing Traditional songs in Traditional style, weather on a gig or in a sing around. Yes! Traditional songs in Traditional style, not a very popular mission statement nowadays, but it seems to be working for me. (and dare I say Dick)


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:25 PM

JIM, I give my honest opinion always ,if you do not like it tough ,start behaving like an adult not a spoiled child.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:22 PM

finished? I only wish you would make up your minds:
finish here already,
or take it elsewhere. I mean, enough.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:13 PM

You whinge about people when people criticise performers you like yet you bust a gut critiscing a singer who has been dead for thirty years and can't defend himself and who did more for folk song in Britain than any other singer
You really ought to be ashamed of yourself Dick
It really is no wonder people find you a pest
Finished
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 02:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 02:36 PM

and by contrast appalachian accent,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbHccbzDloI
completely different from new york accent, so i peggy and tom paley did not have appalachian accents


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,02lame
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 02:25 PM

The master voice (so to speak)
HONKY
Huge changes


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

here is a quote by shirley collins on MacColl.
Shirley Collins: singer instrumental in the English folk revival of the 1960s and 70s

Ewan had quite a pernicious influence on folk music, I think. People who went to the Critics Group [a study group for singers held at MacCollís home] ended up being moulded by him, sounding the same. Folk music should be about reflecting music from the regions, the different voices, the roots of it. You couldnít differentiate anything with his approach.

I first met him when I was 20 and my antenna went up straightaway. I genuinely donít want to be unpleasant, but he was unpleasant to me, quite sexist, and pretentious and pompous Ė words that should never be applied to a folk singer. He said to me that I shouldnít wear nail varnish. What a wretched thing to say to a young woman with an interest; what a way of putting someone down.

He was self-invented; there seemed nothing truthful about him, and thatís always concerned me greatly. He was an actor, really, even as a singer. The way heíd turn his chair, sit astride it, put his hand to his ear... my heart would sink. I know itís not fair as heís not here to defend himself, but Iíve had my opinion since I first met him, and Iíve not seen any reason to change it.

He was a talented man, yes Ė you canít get away from that Ė who made some fine pieces of work, but he could never reach me like a traditional singer could, someone like George Maynard or Harry Cox. His influence now? Things have opened up. Nobody has to listen to what other people are saying. People are going their own way. Thatís the way it should be."
for the benefit of jack campin. he quote was taken from the following context from the Guardian.HERE.
Ewan MacColl: the godfather of folk who was adored Ė and feared

Best known today as the man who wrote Dirty Old Town, the singer and songwriter was a leftwing firebrand who instigated the 60s folk revival. On the centenary of his birth, Neil Spencer recalls an inspirational yet controversial figure while family, friends and fans pay tribute.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 01:06 PM

Jim , I listened to it some time ago on the net , i did not have it in my possession, so i cannot do that, you do have it so you can do so.
I agree with Observer,no one had that right to set themselves up to control the uk revival, I do not agree with observers politics, i agree with MacColls, but , observer has hit the nail on the head, Alex wanted toi further the entertainment side or folk comedians llod and maCcOLL wanted to furgher left wing influence
Davenport [alhough to the left in poltics] was fed up with MacColls controlling attitude.
,I may be wrong but that is my honest opinion.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 11:35 AM

"why cant Jim let us all hear the tape."
I've ytold you why - it's not mine
Perhaps Dick will let you hear his - but I doubt it somehow
C'mon Dick - how about it?

"everything about the man was fake. "
As fake as anonymous trolls who post creepy abuse, do you mean?
"My opinion of MacColl is no secret"
Is that why you don't tell us who you are or what your achievements are?
Ill stick what what and who I know, if it's all the same with you

What a strange bunch!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 10:16 AM

Ewan, Bert and others were concerned with the way the scene was beginning to dissipate so they called a meeting in Central London to see if anything could be done - Bert introduced it, MacColl was in the chair, and they along with Bob Davenport and Alex Campbell gave short summing ups of what they thought was happening and where things should go, then it was thrown open to everybody; it ended up in a shouting match, basically because of the behaviour of one person.

An observation - I couldn't care less about hearing the tape, why should I, or anybody else? Instead ask yourselves, "Who, apart from themselves, appointed MacColl (Or Miller, whatever you want to call him); Armstrong; Davenport and Campbell to decide what should be done about an art form that none of them actually owned or had any proprietary claim to? Looks like total unbounded arrogance.

My opinion of MacColl is no secret, everything about the man was fake.

Ewan set up The Critics Group to examine the techniques and relevance of folk song - Aye in his own image with everything coloured by his own politics.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 09:59 AM

"I DO NOT KNOW WHAT A HONKIE IS?
Really - you have lived a sheltered life !!
It's a black term for a white man


I used to work with a guy from Hong Kong who had ended up having three second languages - English, Mandarin and Cantonese - but didn't quite manage native speaker ability in any of them. I remarked that there was no elegant words for people from Hong Kong and suggested "honkies". When he asked what that meant I said "Black American English for white people", and if you've heard me speak you will realize that the end of the sentence would have gone through his ear a few milliseconds before the beginning had emerged from the language processing centre in the brain - he didn't have a prayer of getting it first time.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM

And then, there's Dean Martin.
A caveat: Dean Martin's singing accent is far from the worst.
He knew what he was about. He chose an admirable artist on whom
to model his own singing sound, and what you hear
when Dean Martin sings is the result of consistent practice and hard work
at sounding natural and at ease with an accent different than your own.
Again, Martin chose well. He modelled his sound on Donald Mills,
the Mills Brothers ensemble member who most often
takes the solo parts in the group's harmonizing.
And Donald Mills had a strong, wholesome, stabilizing quality
to his vocal technique and to his interpretations,
not a singing personality of attention-grabbing extremes.

You have to have an ear for subtle differences in quality
to hear the distinction
between Donald Mills,
whom I believe sang the way he spoke and spoke the way he sang,
and Dean Martin,
who sang with one accent and spoke with another.

Funny business, popular USA music.
The Mills Brothers existed long before the era of
I'm Black and I'm Proud, and they were not confrontational men.
There were parts of the United States, on performance tours,
which they visited just the once, and to which they never returned,
because, as one of them said in an interview,
"we didn't like unpleasantness."
And yet it's my opinion -- I might be mistaken here --
that Mills Brothers recordings were popular over the whole of the USA,
not just where they felt at ease performing and staying in hotels.
They didn't cause a sensation, but they were deeply loved.
And they were enjoyed even by listeners who had no clue.

Meanwhile, Dean Martin took his career to places that
few popular singers can dream of;
he didn't win a Oscar for film acting as Frank Sinatra did,
but he was in films for all that (Westerns),
and he had his own prime-time variety television show.

Yes, he is up there with Doris Day,
and ye gods! What a shock it was for me to discover
the recordings that broke her into the music business.
I grew accustomed, in my growing-up years,
to Doris Day's recordings after she had Arrived, career-wise.
She went back and re-recorded songs like "A Sentimental Journey"
and they sounded totally white-bread-and-blue-eyes, as it were.
But it was when I was considerably older
that I heard her earlier recording of "Sentimental Journey,"
a performance that is the result of
what must have been hours upon hours of listening to
what were then called "race records,"
imitating and practicing both an accent and a sense of syncopated rhythm
that could be heard nowhere else in music at the time.
The young Doris Day, on those early recordings,
sounds altogether like something that she never really was.
She sounds as though she could have been one of
the singers recruited by Duke Ellington for his orchestra.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Jam Today
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 09:11 AM

One can only learn from the past. The Sandman is right why cant Jim let us all hear the tape.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 02:44 PM

There seem to be a lot of tossers arguing about the past here.
The discussion is about accents and not EGOS.
Roger


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 01:18 PM

Jim, i have heard the recording, i never said you gave me the recording. Bert was waffling and so were others, Bob was obstreperous[ do you agree or disagree], answer the question please. Alex talked more sense than anybody else imo
share the tapes so others can make up their own minds and stop hiding the truth, and stop trying to rewrite history.some people were concerned about the uk folk revival over 50 years ago, why, was it because they wanted to control it?, enough of this secrecy, share the recording, let others and make up their own minds.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:56 PM

Sorry Dick - I have no intention of entering into a slanging 'you are a liar' match with you
I never gave you a recording, maybe someone else did
If you think Alex was sober (a first surely) you have listened to something else
I don't hand it around because it is not my recording
If you think Bert was "waffling" you don't deserve a copy anyway
Enough - lets not inflict our disagreements on others
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:41 PM

a so jim why not share the meeting so that others can make up their minds ,they will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that davenport was obstreperous during the meeting, they will also hear Ewan and his remarks and bert Waffling, and reamnarkable it is that over 50 years ago theywere worried about the UK FOLK SCENE, here we are in2018 and the uk folk scene is still with us


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:25 PM

Jim,
i have heard the whole lot, Alex was clearly not pissd out of his mind., the clip somewhere in the middle has ewan suggesting that they have a break for a beer[ imo a big mistake]. you know perfectly well there was at least a scuffle which involved Davenport, stop trying to twist the truth and muddy the waters.my impression on listening to that tape was that Alex Campbells remarks about him not being able to sing woody guthrie songs because he was scottish, were spot on ,he ceratinly did not sound pissed out of his mind,bob davenport was fairly awkward and hard to manage throughout the meeting , are you denying this jim? are you calling me a liar?


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 11:40 AM

Classic FM are running an advert for Maserati Cars at the moment.
The Italian accent of the female voice 'artist' is hilarious.
Roger


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM

Possibly mine.

But I'm lucky, I don't have to listen to it!

200


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 10:35 AM

Rosemary Clooney's singing, in her own American-English accent, is a pleasure.

I cringe, though, when a young Rosemary Clooney sings an English lyric with a fake Italian accent.
I guess it sold records and made her a show-business name at the time,
but ...


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM

Guest, I've always hated the pronunciation white people ascribed to African Americans. About the weirdest example of that is a 78 rpm record I have of a Black college choir singing "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" with these college guys singing the dialect. The words are pretty much the same. The accent is what's different. Nobody does song lyrics ŗ la Mainers, or Minnesotans.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM

It isn't just the worst accent in singing.

You can 'write' in an accent not your own, and that can feel weird to the reader. So recently I was reading something by an African American (which I am not) who didn't like the way the early "race records" marketing used what was supposed to be a representation of African American parlance to advertise their products. Suppose this is the 'buy in any language, sell in the buyer's language' principle.

I have seen similar imitations of that speech used to advertise blues-type events in the UK and it just feels 'fake'. And I've read articles about blues music by white English people which do the same sort of thing. Come n dig dee blues man! It's smokin


Probably fallen into the trap myself of course, but there you go


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 05:33 AM

" Alex Campbell"
Was pissed out of his mind and his main contribution was to slur drunkenly 'I love the old folk'
If there was violence, it isn't clear who started it - I've never been sure there was

It wasn't a 'clip' - it was an hour-and-a half recording
I've only ever given it to close friends and a member of this forum I trust
I don't know which bit you heard
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

Ewan, Bert and others were concerned with the way the scene was beginning to dissipate so they called a meeting in Central London to see if anything could be done - Bert introduced it, MacColl was in the chair, and they along with Bob Davenport and Alex Campbell gave short summing ups of what they thought was happening and where things should go, then it was thrown open to everybody; it ended up in a shouting match, basically because of the behaviour of one person.
I listened to that audio clip, and the one person who made the most sense was Alex Campbell[ the same man who genrously married peggy seeger andthus allowing her to stay in the uk] particularly when he said does that mean because i am scottish i am not allowed to sing a woody guthrie song.Alex comes across very well IMO
Viewed in hindsight part of the problem with that meeting was the allowance of any alcohol and the large chip on the shoulder of Bob Davenport, there is no excuse for violence, however i can understand Bob Davenports frustration with the controlling attitude of Ewan MacColl.
Ewan was a fine songwriter but imo wanted to control situations too often, you are right ,his legacy will be the many fine songs that he wrote. however of all the people at that meeting the two whose company i would enjoy the most would be A.L .Lloyd and Alex Campbell


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM

Thanks Stephen - my feelings exactly - you said what need saying
That incident took place when the fledgling revival was still basking in the glow of the 1950s BBC recording campaign which had opened up the treasure box of British traditional song yet enthusiastic singers with basically good voices and instrumental skills where still herding cattle and slaving away on chain gangs in a mythical America that they knew nothing about.
Peggy's reaction to the wannabe Leadbelly was only one in that period; there was 'The John Snow' meeting; I don't think that's dealt with in either Peggy's biography or autobiography, (Freedmans bio is ecxcellent, if you haven't read it).

Ewan, Bert and others were concerned with the way the scene was beginning to dissipate so they called a meeting in Central London to see if anything could be done - Bert introduced it, MacColl was in the chair, and they along with Bob Davenport and Alex Campbell gave short summing ups of what they thought was happening and where things should go, then it was thrown open to everybody; it ended up in a shouting match, basically because of the behaviour of one person.
We have a recording of it - it is a fascinating peep at what was good and bad at the time.
Bert went off and continued to plough his furrow and Ewan set up The Critics Group to examine the techniques and relevance of folk song and produced 'The Song Carriers', ten (well-twelve really) programmes on British traditional singing that have, in my opinion, not been surpassed in over half a century

A few years later, I became involved with the work of Ewan and Peggy, and that lucky break put enough petrol in my engine to keep me going till now.
I don't care if people like Ewan or his singing - I like both, but that's not why I stand up for a man who has been dead for nearly three decades
What Ewan had to say, his ideas, his arguments, his suck-it-and-see approach to folksong represents over ten years of concentrated work on the social and technical aspects of the performance of folk song - much of it was recorded and still exists
We have around 200 tapes of Critics Group meetings on our shelves which I hope to sort out and pass on one day.
Shortly after the Critics Group ended Pat and I embarked on a six-month long interview of Ewan concentrating on his work and ideas rather than his personal history - twenty tapes of fluent outpourings.
There are stacks more examples of his work here, seminars, talks, interviews, by him, Peggy Charles Parker and others, all on the subject that has entertained and inspired me for most of my life.
I believe it needs to be accepted or rejected on the basis of people having listened to so they can decide whether MacColl said or stood for anything worth listening to.

Instead, we get this facile and often disturbingly nasty cat-'n-dog fights that seldom get beyond accents or name change or war-records, based largely on Chinese whispers and spiteful rumours - more than a little frustrating.

MacColl wasn't perfect by any means, but his knowledge and his and Peggy's generosity in being prepared to share what they had, well made up for any physical flaws
Sometimes I think all of this is not unlike rejecting The Theory of Relativity because someone told you that Einstein had halitosis or picked his none
Taking the man and his work into consideration, none of this nonsense is worth a fiddler's fart.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 02:21 AM

Agreed. Specially the bit about Cyril.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:46 AM

STEPHEN H,yes we have seen that before, the recollection i have of that time is different, in that the knock on effect of the policy had much more influence than Peggy says
.The good side of the knock on effect was that many singes explored in more depth the repertoire of the geographical british isles. the down side was that   in doing so some of us steered away from some very good american songs of social comment.
My recollection of the knock on effects of their policy is a different one.
.Cyril Tawney by contrast went around trying to quietly encourage singers to look at indigineous repertoire rather than trying to impose rules.
finally MacColls attempts at scottish, irish and west country accents are not very good, and for Jim Carroll to criticse the yetties for singing in their own accents is bizarre


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: StephenH
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:57 PM

A couple of points that I'd like to address.
Firstly, I think people are conflating singers attempting accents that they have only heard from other singers, with singers singing in an accent that was likely the one they were spoken to in their early formative years, until socialising with other children altered their speech. So,for me, Ewan MacColl singing with a Scots accent - having been raised by Scottish parents - is not the same thing as someone singing in an accent they have no real familial or cultural ties with.
You may not like MacColl's Scots accent, and I leave it to the Scots to judge its acceptability, but he didn't simply decide to adapt it from recordings.
Secondly, since Peggy Seeger and the Singers Club has been once again brought into the discussion, I think it's worth quoting from Peggy's
very well done memoir:
(After the London singer's performance of "Rock Island Line").."My gut reaction was to laugh. It was rude, outrageous - but I couldn't stop.I had to be taken out of the room. After the show, other resident singers insisted that we talk about it. Members of the audience were invited......one of the French audience members said he didn't like my singing of French songs. Stung, I passed the aggro on to Ewan: Well, I don't really like it when you sing 'Sam Bass' with an exaggerated American accent. Then Isla Cameron objected to Bert singing songs from Scotland. A trail of dominoes - we all lost, but in the process found a policy for our club and our club only. Repeat: The Policy was for our club only....(it) has been blown up out of all proportion. It was only meant for onstage singing....(s)ing whatever you want elsewhere..."

There is more in that section, and I realise this is Peggy Seeger's personal recollection of the event, but I do find it tedious that she and Ewan MacColl do seem to come in for more than their fair share of stick when it comes to this subject. (apologies if this section of Peggy Seeger's book has been quoted before elsewhere.)


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM

i have met her, in fact i booked both of them, they are good performers, and if the time was appropriate and i met her again i would be delighted to discuss the good points and the bad points of the singers club policy.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:44 PM

"I DO NOT KNOW WHAT A HONKIE IS? "
Really - yuo ahve lived a sheltered life !!
It's a black term for a white man - no need to shout
No - the lad wasn't singing in his own Cockney accent - that's the problem - very few people who sing American songs ever do
Apart from that, you haven't read a word I wrote and you will continue to regard Peggy (an American) as a hypocrite for singing American songs
I suggest if you ever meet her you should tell her what you think - she will probably think you are as daft as I do, though she's more good manners than I am so she won't tell you so.
Can you produce proof that Ewan (or anybody) ever suggested you should sing songs from your own street, area, town or county?
Won't hold my breath !
By the way, Peggy may have been born in New York, but she was educated in Massachusetts and she traveller the world, including Russia and China, before settling in England with Ewan, where she lived most of her life
As a child her family welcomed singers and musicians from all over America to their home - they had a live in home help, Elizabeth Cotten, a singer and guitarist from North Carolina, who taught Peggy to play and gave her her songs, including 'Freight Train'
When Ewan died, she moved to North Carolina and is now living in Oxford
A chance to have picked up more accents than most people
Now, if you have nothing sensible to add - I really think we are finished
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM

non of which alters the fact that both of them were very good performers, [and Peggy still is] and very good songwriters


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

As far as the young feller trying to sing like Leadbelly (Peggy not both) - the Singers Club (that was where the argument was aimed at) was set up to encourage singers singing songs from their own national backgrounds - certainly not English honkies trying to sound like black American convicts
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT A HONKIE IS? anyway this guy was singing in his own cockney accent,so he was not trying to sound like leadbelly, but peggy found this funny, she was hyprocitical, there she was singing appalachian songs with a new york accent,its like the mad hatters tea party


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:57 PM

"Jim, he should have sung in a Salford accent, "
He didn't speak in a Salford accent when he became a singer - why should he sing in an accent that was not his own?
As far as the young feller trying to sing like Leadbelly (Peggy not both) - the Singers Club (that was where the argument was aimed at) was set up to encourage singers singing songs from their own national backgrounds - certainly not English honkies trying to sound like black American convicts
The aim was to put British songs on the map rather than the predominantly Yankee stuff that filled the record shelves in those days
If your own repertoire is basically British, you owe a vote of thanks to the people who followed our lead in opening up venues which encouraged those songs
I do wish I didn't have to keep repeating this piece of simple common sense
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:17 PM

Thinking about it Jack, there is an album where MacColl sings with a Salford accent, Topic's early - 'The Singing Streets', on which he swaps Children's Songs with Dominic Behan
Jim


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:15 PM

Jim, he should have sung in a Salford accent, Particularly as he and Peggy were so critical "of the cockney who sang rock island line?in his own "cockney" accent".


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

"Jimmy Miller is the name he was born with, "
And he changed it by deed poll
Do you talk about Robert Zimmerman?
Bet you don't
How about John Pandrich?
This Jimmy Miller" garbage is becoming a sure sign of old-folkie senility - the youngsters don't know who you are referring to and just seems spiteful sour grapes from folkie crumblies to continue is's necrophobic use.
I do wish some people would grow up so we can discuss these things sensibly   
Personally, I don't give two monkeys what people thought of Ewan as a singer and most of them who take snide digs at him never met him - none of that matters to me
To me, MacColl is a dead friend who went out of his way to work with younger singers who asked for his help while the rest of the folkie-stars got on with their careers

Is your name really "Jimmy Riddle" by the way - I thought that was a bodily function?
If it isn'yt, why did you change it?

"ARE there any recordings of Ewan MacColl singing in a Salford accent?"
Don't think there are - his period as an actor and his nomadic life changed that as it did mine and others
THe BBC description from the 1930s depression described hims as singing in a Scots accent
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Jimmy Riddle
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:36 AM

Jimmy Miller is the name he was born with, it is the name Joan Littlewood his ex partner refers to him in her book.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM

Just occurred to me - ARE there any recordings of Ewan MacColl singing in a Salford accent?


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM

"Jimmy Miller"
Did Robert Zimmermann do the same, or Ethel Gumm or Maria Louise Ciccone?
Who the fuck is Jimmy Miller?
Why do people insist on posting this garbage thirty years after the man snuffed it
You undermine your argument before you start
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Peter Plum
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 09:26 AM

Peter Pears,Lonnie Donegan,Bob Dylan,Ewan McColl.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Hedge Accentor
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:49 AM

Yetties are from Dorset. They sing in Dorset accents,their own accents. Jimmy Miller failed when he tried to sing in different accents, other than his own, his attempts at Scottish and Irish and West Country are laughable.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM

Thanks Jack

Karen
It's always struck me that, certainly since the late fifties, all British pop music is based on a somewhat odd Americanese - even my fellow Liverpudlians, The Beatles
Not just pop, of course - that has filtered into singer-songwriter 'folk'
We once booked a very fine Welsh harmonica player at The Singers Club - also a singer of his own songs
He had a fine speaking accent but sang everything in 'mid-Atlantic'
He introduced one of his songs, telling how he had been inspired by a girl he met while he was working at a Holiday Camp - it was based on their parting and going their separate ways, and his measuring the separation by the names of the stations he passed though on the way home - quite a nice idea.
Then he said "The English and Welsh names didn't work for me, so I changed them to American ones" - the spoiling of a nice idea.
I've never understood people's lack of confidence in their own natural way of speaking

One of the big culture shocks we had regarding language was when we were staying on a Greek Island and had climbed the hill above the town for some refreshment
We twenty into a small shop to buy ice cream and, while we were bending over the fridge trying to interpret the different brands we were approached by the young woman serving, swathed entirely in the traditional black of Greek widow, who told us "that's vanilla, that't's lime and that's chocolate chip, luv" - in pure, fluent North-East Londonese
Jim


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:21 AM

Just listened to Ewan again. No not the worst but close.
I didn't mind the Yetties. At least they were from Dorset. (Well they still are in fact)


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:05 AM

Hello

This business of accents is odd. I know a person who sounds completely 'English' and has never lived in Ireland but whose ancestors (not sure how far back) were Irish. This chap, who is lovely, sometimes sings in an Irish accent, and it always feels strange.

But as a child I was always puzzled about why pop stars sang in odd accents, with Mick Jagger being a prime example. It took me a while to realise they were imitating American accents. I have read pieces which on the basis that Jagger would have been imitating African American accents accuse him of being an example of latter day 'minstrelsy' though the comparison only goes so far. It is an emotive term, but the contexts and attitudes are different.

I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned 'code switching' here, but linguists have noticed that most of us can speak in varying degrees/styles of accent. We tend to switch depending upon the context and company. Another term is I think accommodation, which is how when two people with different accents meet, their accents automatically tend to get closer together. These terms seem potentially useful to me when thinking about the way people sing.


Thinking in terms of just English, it isn't just accents, but the whole language has changed a lot over the years. If we went back in time to the centuries when some traditional folk songs are said to have started, I don't think we would understand much of what people said. Certainly not the French speaking Normans. Reading it is problematic too. So it isn't just that the 'accent' has changed over the years, the whole language has too. So the 'old' songs, it seems to me, have to have changed too.

Jack, on transcribing oral texts, the linguists have devised methods of annotating these to show pauses and so on. There are also complicated methods of showing how pitch varies during speaking (which I cannot use, just know about). But you are right that the printed word cannot capture everything about a spoken version, and a spoken version will omit all of the non-verbal communication that accompanies the verbal.


I once met a Frenchman who had learned to speak English in Yorkshire and had a wonderful Yorkshire accent. It came as a surprise, but I quite liked it: you felt he had learned it among people, not from books teaching Received Pronunciation.

Accents are emotive things.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 07:38 AM

WE are now faced with a problem of what to do with around fifty Irish traditional stories we recorded from elderly Irish storytellers
We can publish transcriptions, but the printed word is very much inferior to the spoken versions


Add some who/what/when metadata and upload them to archive.org. Links to them could then be placed anywhere, e.g. here, Facebook or a blog.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM

why not donate them to a historical society or a folklore society or a museum?
How can they be "used" in that way Dick?
They are examples of how the old storytellers approached their material, not museum pieces to be looked at - something very much needed as examples when you consider the 'tricksy' approach of modern storytellers who feel the need to act out their tales in pseudo-medieval costume
You appear to making too much of this Dick - you've lost my attention - sorry

Nick - not a great example of Ewan, but hardly the worst
I've heard far more diabolical attempts at 'Mummerset' - even from people who are from that part of the country
The Yetties always managed to set my teeth on edge when I could bear listening to them
Jim Carroll


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