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BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!

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Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 03 - 06:48 AM
black walnut 17 Dec 03 - 07:08 AM
GUEST 17 Dec 03 - 07:21 AM
Peg 17 Dec 03 - 08:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Dec 03 - 10:33 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 17 Dec 03 - 03:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Dec 03 - 04:04 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 17 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 03 - 06:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Dec 03 - 06:10 PM
mouldy 18 Dec 03 - 02:56 AM
GUEST,Sarah 18 Dec 03 - 04:32 AM
Larkin 18 Dec 03 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Cluin @ girlfriend's 18 Dec 03 - 03:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM
Coyote Breath 18 Dec 03 - 11:53 PM
mouldy 19 Dec 03 - 02:50 AM
Nerd 19 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 03 - 06:51 PM
mouldy 20 Dec 03 - 02:46 AM
NicoleC 20 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM
Peg 20 Dec 03 - 01:10 PM
Little Hawk 20 Dec 03 - 01:49 PM
Peg 20 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM
Little Hawk 20 Dec 03 - 09:25 PM
Ethereal Purple 20 Dec 03 - 11:31 PM
Little Hawk 20 Dec 03 - 11:54 PM
mouldy 21 Dec 03 - 02:32 AM
Clinton Hammond 21 Dec 03 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Cluin 21 Dec 03 - 12:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM
Clinton Hammond 21 Dec 03 - 01:25 PM
Arnie 21 Dec 03 - 02:03 PM
The Shambles 21 Dec 03 - 03:03 PM
NicoleC 21 Dec 03 - 04:24 PM
Peg 21 Dec 03 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah 21 Dec 03 - 05:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 21 Dec 03 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Ooh- Aah 21 Dec 03 - 05:56 PM
Little Hawk 21 Dec 03 - 06:13 PM
Clinton Hammond 21 Dec 03 - 06:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 03 - 06:45 PM
smallpiper 21 Dec 03 - 08:19 PM
Little Hawk 21 Dec 03 - 11:40 PM
artbrooks 21 Dec 03 - 11:43 PM
Cluin 22 Dec 03 - 12:18 AM
Cluin 22 Dec 03 - 12:21 AM
NicoleC 22 Dec 03 - 12:28 AM
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Subject: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:48 AM

Only kidding! Got 9 hours to go before I can realy make that statement. Did have a weired dream last night though. Somehow involved ringwraiths and pelicans...

Do you think something is playing on my mind? Or was it the surfeit of Chinese food?

Fell free to beat me to it if you realy have seen it btw:)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: black walnut
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:08 AM

My 16 year old and her friend are skipping school to see it this morning - a 9:45 AM showing. Too bad I have to work or I'd be joining them.

~b.w.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:21 AM

Can't wait!


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Peg
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:42 AM

Click www.witchvox.com to read my review if you want...there are spoilers!


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM

I trust you are just keeping us from the spoilers. Peg..;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:33 AM

I think I'll wait till the rush is over. In the meantime there are the first two parts to catch up on on DVD. And the book. Not exactly any need for Ring-starvation.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 03:38 PM

I went to the 12:01 AM opening day screening. Didn't get home until 4:30 AM. No, I'm not that big an LOTR freak - daughter's visiting and it was her idea.

It was (go to an online thesaurus, find as many synonyms for "stupendous" as possible, and insert here->)_______________.

The visuals are incredible. The orcs are uglier than ever. The Nazgul are much more menacing than in Two Towers. Minas Tirith is so stunningly realistic that you'd swear they actually built the place. The dead are cool too.   

The pacing is superb. Frodo and Sam's journey through Mordor to Mt. Doom is not tedious as it is in the book. The post-ring-destruction denouement is also gratefully shortened.

Minor complaints: Saruman's fate is left in limbo. Faramir & Eowyn's romance is only hinted at.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 04:04 PM

"The post-ring-destruction denouement is also gratefully shortened.
"


If that is so, it's a right bugger! And the same goes for cutting down too much on the "tedious" trek of Frodo and Sam. But of course that's an example of how people differ when it comes to what we think is exciting or important.

I hope the DVD when it comes will restore much of that. (Though I know the Scouring of the Shire was excised, because there's a thread about that. And I deplore it. If they had to cut things, I'd sooner they cut down on the big battle sequences. Still, I'm not making movies.)


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

Kevin, just a quick example... In the book, Frodo and Sam, disguised in orc armour, were press-ganged by a bunch of orcs traveling through Mordor, right? That particular bit was omitted from the movie and I didn't miss it a bit.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM

I can now tell the truth! I shall change my comment from brilliant to just...

Wow!

Probably the best film I will ever see. Apart from the extended edition in November...;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:02 PM

Oh - and my admiration for the works Annie Lennox has gone even higher. I shall say no more...;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:10 PM

And you confirm my point, Bee-dubya-ell, becuase that's be something I'd hope to see reinstated in the DVD.

Horses for courses.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: mouldy
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 02:56 AM

We knew about the haunting end-theme, sung by Annie Lennox, cos we got the cd a few weeks ago, and Ruth has been playing it non-stop! As soon as the dots are released she'll be putting the piano through some overtime again.

We are off to see it tomorrow night. Can't wait!


Andrea


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 04:32 AM

Saw it last night.

Can't find the words!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Larkin
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:17 AM

Me Too and I have to say I was a bit dissappointed and felt that a lot of the depth of the individual characters storylines was missing and some weird introductions to the plot . The fate of Arwen being tied up with the Ring?? Sam being sent back by Frodo??? The Eowen/ Faramir romance ? The Hands of the King are the hands of a healer ????

The set pieces were fantastic- Pelennor fields superb. Legolas and Oliphaunt -best thing in it.

Probably not helped by booking late and sitting at the front.

Larkin


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: GUEST,Cluin @ girlfriend's
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:47 PM

Well, if television commercials are to be believed (hey, they wouldn't lie to us, would they?), all the adventure and excitement of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King can now be found at KFC.

Maybe we have to fight an orc or cave troll or Nazgul to pick up our chicken? And I hear with a 3 or 4 piece dinner, you get a lembas roll.

If only the Fellowship had known, Frodo and Sam needn't have made the arduous trek to Mount Doom to dispose of the One Ring in the Fire. All they needed to do was walk into their local crispy chicken outlet and toss the thing into the fat fryer. The pimply kids in the back would have been a pushover compared to Sauron and his minions.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM

I think I'd sooner head for Mount Doom than walk into a Knetucky Fried Chicken place. Or Macdonalds, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:53 PM

My children (as children are wont to do to their 'poor auld da') absconded with my copies of the books. The nicely bound and boxed copies. The lovely volumes I've had at hand for... well... a long time. I wanted to re-read the Hobbit and then the trilogy. I watched my two VHS tapes instead. Felt myself lucky to have those. Went to Borders and almost had a heart attack when I saw the $115 price of that exact same boxed set! I KNOW I never paid anything near that much for my copy since I was a poverty stricken student at the time.

I'm planning a raid. I'll wait 'til my daughters are otherwise occupied and I'll slip my copies into an old San Francisco State College book bag I have... wait a minute, where did I put that bag? It was just over there right next to my copy of Nosferatu (the Murnau version) Yikes!

We're going to go Christmas eve (actually early afternoon) when there is no one about.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: mouldy
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 02:50 AM

As I sit here, Ruth is getting up for college, and Annie Lennox is once again blasting down the stairs!

(We go tonight).

Andrea


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM

I agree that the cuts were painful. I have read that the "houses of healing" scenes, in which Aragorn uses his healer's hands and Eowyn and Faramir fall in love, were filmed and than cut, so they should be in the extended version. Other stuff...who knows? I expect some discussion of Denethor's Palantir will make it into the extended cut, as it was hinted at mightily in the theatrical release.

I thought the complete absence of Aragorn's people, the Dunedain or descendants of Numenor, was sad. In the book they rally and accompany the heroes on the paths of the dead and in the corsair ships. In the movies they seem to have abandoned Aragorn entirely, as you never see another Dunedain at all. In Tolkien's universe they were an important symbol. The Woses were also eliminated, so that Gondor and Rohan are completely alone.

I also thought that Arwen's fate being tied to the ring was weird, and that they didn't have to go through the whole "now you are becoming mortal because you've finally made the decision to stay" scene. This last was unnecessary especially because they already explained in the first movie why she will not go to Valinor but Frodo will, at least to those who were paying attention: "whatever grace is given me, may it pass to him." I hate it when films decide you're not smart enough and invent dumb explanations for things (midochlorians, anyone?)

But there were also some great scenes that were not in the book, or only hinted at. Pippin lighting the first signal fire, and then the others slowly igniting, one by one across the mountains, was very inspiring. A scene between Eowyn and Theoden after the latter has been wounded and she has killed the Morgul king was also a nice addition. Some scenes in the book that would have looked silly on film, like Gollum leaping around triumphantly and simply falling into the cracks of doom, were changed as well.

In all, I thought it was a good adaptation and a great movie. The battle sequences were astounding, the human (or hobbitish) drama with Frodo and Sam and Gollum was riveting, and the acting in general outstanding. Good Job, Jackson!


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 06:51 PM

Just seen it. I suspect the bits I thought best were the bits the people who like the big battles thought were a drag. I could have done with less of those, too much like the kind of computer games I don't go in for. From that point of view I think the first film got the balance best.

But the slower bits were magic, especially the scenes with Sam and Frodo. And I was surprised to find that on balance I found I agreed with cutting out the Scouring of the Shire - the scene with the four back in the pub knowing where they'd been, and what they'd been through, and nobody else there could ever understand, that was eloquently done. I think Tolkien as a survivor of the Western Front would have liked that.

I tried to get to see it when there wouldn't be too many kids around, but didn't quite manage that. Still, that was interesting enough, because it wasn't a riot, just lots of voices in the dark really getting involved. "Oh no!" "Behind you!" And towards the end there's a scene when everyone on the screen applauds the hobbits - and just before they started clapping, spontaneously half the audience did the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: mouldy
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 02:46 AM

I went last night.
Ruth said that at the end a big hairy biker bloke next to her was crying his eyes out, but she didn't dare offer him a tissue!

I agree about the scouring of the Shire not being necessary. In the mirror of Galadriel it was only hinted at as something that may come to pass. Also, if you look as Frodo is completing his writing of Bilbo's book, there is a reference to Sam becoming mayor in the paragraph above the last one. Maybe that will make it into the extended edition.

I think that given the magnitude of the project, Peter Jackson has done a wonderful job. With something like this, you can't keep everybody happy all the time, but somebody has to be brave enough to make cuts and adaptations. Let's face it, you are dealing with cinema, and not everything makes a direct transfer from the page, and good cinema. It is also going to be viewed by people who have never been near any of Tolkein's works, and so it can't get too involved, otherwise it would lose its audience.

I was pleased to see that the Pelennor fields were almost exactly as my mind had seen them. I haven't read the book for about 3 years or more, and I purposely kept off it while I was waiting to see the films, because I wanted to take them at face value and not be too picky. Now I will go and read the book again and see whether it's me or Peter Jackson who provides the imagery!

Yes, we enjoyed the film. I daresay it won't be long before we go again and look at it in a bit more depth. I didn't notice Peter Jackson's cameo in this one, although he got his kids in 3 times by my count! They even get a mention as "featured children" on the credits.

Andrea

Anyone else think Billy Boyd's song rather good? If I remember from one of the pre-release interviews on TV, he wrote it too.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM

I agree, Andrea. The complaints I hear most are "they cut THIS out" or "It's too LONG!" and "I didn't understand ___" or "they didn't need to explain ___!" Personally I would have preferred 18 hours or so to complete the whole book, but you can't always get what you want.

All in all I think Pete has done a marvelous job. The movies don't begin to replace the books, but the trilogy certainly stands on it's own as a piece of cinema.

Off to take a shower -- we have tickets for a matinee. With any luck we'll get a lively LA audience that boos and cheers and contributes to that magical difference between watching a movie and sharing a movie in the dark with a lot of other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Peg
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 01:10 PM

Going to see it again   tonight. I was   happy to have seen a press screening with only a few people; tonight will be packed!
Ithought Billy Boyd's song was one of the best moments   of the film...that is very cool he wrote it   too...


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 01:49 PM

Right on, Peg. I'm off to see it today. You gonna dress up as Arwen? That would be cool. How's it going with the flood?


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Peg
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

ceiling is high and dry thanks for asking. It will repaired early next week before we get more weather, I am told.

I would love to dress as Arwen! I have a cloak just that color, but alas it is not silk velvet like hers! Maybe I will wear it tonight and pull my hair back like hers...except now I have a slight fringe of bangs so it will be tricky...
now to grow six inches so I am as tall as Liv Tyler!


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 09:25 PM

Well, I didn't go today, cos it was all sold out. Figures. They are gonna make a well-deserved fortune on this movie. Will try the matinee tomorrow. Just wear really tall high heels under a long gown, Peg, and no one will know the difference. I didn't know Liv Tyler was that tall, but she looks like she is, all right.

I wouldn't mind looking like either Legolas or Aragorn, but it's gonna have to wait till my next incarnation! :-)

I love Elves to utter distraction. They are even cooler than the Teton and Oglala Souix (Lakotas).


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 11:31 PM

If you ever do look like Legolas or Aragorn (the latter especially).. do tell me *grin*.

It's so unfair... it hasn't come out here yet!! *sob*.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 11:54 PM

At present, I look more like a combination of Bob Dylan, circa 1977 and George Harrison, circa about 1985...which is okay...but I'm no Aragorn. If I see a suitable candidate, though, I'll pm you as to his whereabouts.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: mouldy
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:32 AM

Our Ruth, being very dark haired and slender, has been told she's like Arwen. This has pleased her immensely. She'll have to tidy herself up a little bit first - the "lived-in" jeans and black fleece jacket a la dog hair doesn't quite have that Rivendell touch!

Andrea


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 12:46 PM

Saw it last night, finally... and I have to admit... after 5+ years of following the development of these movies, I'm feeling a little.. umm... I guess maybe postpartum is the word.... I don't know what I'll do with myself now... especially online...

But that aside... the movie...

Well, I said it when I came out of Fellowship, and it was trebly true when I came out of Return... "Man oh man do I ever wish the book was half that good!" From start to finish, I was roped in... I was half way out of my seat with Theodin's "A sword day, a red day"... I bawled for love at Sam's "I may not be able to carry it, but I can carry you!" (If Sean Austin doesn't get Best Supporting Actor, I'll burn down Hollywood!) I've never felt so good as to hear Ian's "Gandalf Laugh" when frodo awakens in Minas Tirith...

I absolutely cannot wait to see the extended Ed... (So far the rumour is that it'll be 4 hours and 50 min long!) To watch it all as one long movie...

I'm having a tough time thinking of ANYTHING I didn't like in it....


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 12:54 PM

Tried to get in to see it a couple of nights ago, but both evening shows were sold out in the afternoon. A first around here. Could have taken in another flick that night since there are a couple of other interesting things at the local multiplex, but our hearts were set on "The King". So we went Xmas shopping instead. Now I have to wait until another night my girlfriend is off, since I've been threatened with dire things if I go see it without her. Next time I'll pick up the tickets in the daytime.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

"Man oh man do I ever wish the book was half that good!"

And there's me thinking - "Isn't it great that the book is even better". The strange thing is, I've found that there are things in the book that I can distinctly remember from the films. Except that they weren't actually there in the films. My mind has translated the memory from reading into a memory from seeing.

One thing, especially in the Return of the King - if you hadn't read the book, I think it might have been awfully hard to understand what was going on some of the time. I don't regard that as a signifcant flaw though. Just encourages people to read the book.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 01:25 PM

"And there's me thinking - "Isn't it great that the book is even better"

I won't sully this thread with petty, subjective debates MGoH...

I'll just say, what a dull world it'd be if we all thought exactly the same thing all the time eh!

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Arnie
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:03 PM

Saw it a couple of days ago and it's absolutely riveting. I'm about half way through the book as well but this is slow going as not much time to read it. Orlando Bloom makes a great Legolas the Elf - I find the elves fascinating, shame there are none around in reality (at least I don't know of any!) Not many elves in ROTK but the elf archers in the Battle of Helms Deep were great - they were the WMD of Middle Earth!! Their quivers never seemed to run out of arrows despite them firing at a rate of about 1 arrow per second.....


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 03:03 PM

Difficult to say too much until we go and see it for the second time. Spent too much time on the very edge of my seat - smiling, and holding my breath in wonder and admiration.....Just like a rollercoaster ride only better. A truly staggering vision!


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:24 PM

I'm going to have to digress from this lovefest and admit that I was a little disappointed. It's pretty good movie, but maybe expectations were too high. The pace is plodding and it much harder to get involved with the story than the last two. The changes Pete made from the book were much more intrusive than the past ones (which really didn't bother me) and the climax was downright hokey and completely out of place. I really felt left down when it was over.

Well, anyway, still glad I saw it and overall I still think the movies were good adaptations of the books... but ROTK is merely good, not great.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Peg
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:35 PM

i just saw it for the second time last night. I don't suppose it's flawless, but who is making films of this scale and scope and intensity and beauty these days? No one. Who is telling such inspiring stories that will reach so many? No one. I think we are most fortunate to have Mr. Jackson's vision and that of his colleagues to warm our jaded hearts and surprise our dead eyes for a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:02 PM

I havn't seen it yet but I am worried. Clinton Hammond says he loves the film. Clinton Hammond (on another thread) thinks that Tolkien's prose style is dull (Strewth!!) Oh dear - I hope it isn't dumbed down to moron level for American audiences like the first one was.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:11 PM

Ooh-aah...

Chew me for the inferance that I'm a moron... especially simply because I side with Tolkiens critics when it comes to Lord Of The Rings...

Nor do I see anything 'dumbed down' in PJs version of Fellowship...

What did Peg say above about "warming our jaded hearts and surprising our dead eyes?"

And about nothing ever being 'flawless'??

It's a damn good piece of film, PJ's Lord Of The Rings...

"The changes Pete made from the book were much more intrusive than the past ones"

Interesting considering that it was Two Towers that PJ said was furthest from the book...


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: GUEST,Ooh- Aah
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:56 PM

No one expected the films to be 'flawless', but Jacksons teatment of the first film made me so angry that I nearly walked out of the cinema. The overwhelming feeling was that the breadth and depth of Tolkien's vision had been utterly trivialised. Two main things - Tolkien's marvellous dialogue and use of language was changed to a bunch of primary-school cliches, presumably so the lowest common denominators in the audience could follow the plot - certainly it had to be cut back enormously, but something of the richness of the language could have been retained - at one point one of the characters says something like "Let's go hunt some orc" - pardon me while I throw up! Secondly the first film avoided a treatment of the difficult moral choices made by the characters, particularly in Lothlorien - to take one example, the fact that the destruction of the one ring will lead to the decay of all the Elves have worked for in Middle-Earth. Without this moral seriousness the whole thing was more like an extended round of Dungeons and Dragons than a story for grown ups. Furthermore many of the incidents in the story were utterly trivialised - the absurd all-in brawl at the council of Elrond, the sado-masochistic treatment of the death of Boromir (how many arrows in the gut can one man take) the WWF wrestling for wizards between Saruman and Gandalf - Tolkien's evokation of the smouldering menace in this encounter was changed to the absurd sight of two old men clawing each other on the floor, completely destroying the dignity and gravitas that is such a vital part of Gandalf's character.I will leave it there, but could go on, and on!

Glad to have got that off my chest...


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 06:13 PM

Yeah, Clinton...saw it this afternoon, and I agree with you in every way. A truly grand and marvelous movie, bringing great dignity to most (if not all) of the characters. This trio of films has shown how to really do a trilogy...film all 3 parts in one go, while the actors are still young-looking (or whatever age they are when it starts). Then it retains its full vitality and freshness.

This is the first time I've seen a part 3 of anything that was even better than parts 1 and 2.

And Ooh-Ahh...I agree wholeheartedly that the "Let's go hunt some Orc" line in #2 was utterly dreadful...but I can live with it. These were the finest movies ever done on a subject like this, and there's no way any set of movies that isn't collectively about 40 hours in length can possibly do justice to everything that's in the books. Simply can't be done.

Complaining about trivial flaws here and there in LOTR is like having a girlfriend who is sweet, beautiful, intelligent, idealistic, and courageous...and breaking up with her because she has a mole on her left cheek and burped once at dinner...

The guys who played Frodo and Sam...they have nailed those roles for all time. Couldn't be better, in my opinion. And I've read the books, oh, about 15 or more times. Truly stupendous!

Annie Lennox's song is great too, and very appropriate.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 06:16 PM

"Tolkien's marvellous dialogue and use of language was changed to a bunch of primary-school cliches"

Which book is this again?? Caue one of the things LOTR is most criticised for is it's overuse of cliche... And Tolkien may have been a professor language... but he wasn't much of a creative writer...

So big deal... you didn't like the film... Why post to a thread of people who did?

Troll...

"so angry that I nearly walked out"
Don't go away mad... just go away...

*Sorry folks... I just did with this self-centered goof exactly what I said I wouldn't with MGoH... If the powers wanna clean this thread up, I for one will NOT object...*


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 06:45 PM

"...a creative writer" is surely exactly the kind of writer he was. Someone who uses their writing abilities to sub-create a world.

Yeah, and I know that the kind of people who get jobs teaching "creative writing" might use the term to mean something very different, probably something to do with using language in ways it hasn't being used previously.

Tolkien wasn't a novelist; border ballads aren't lyric poetry; Jane Austen didn't write stream of consciousness. They are all examples of language being used to do certain things superbly.

And the same kind of thing is true about film, and Peter Jackson achieved something quite remarkable in these films.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: smallpiper
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 08:19 PM

I saw it yesterday and I was dissapointed.......... but I'm going to go se it again just in case!

PS I think that Peter Jackson did a fantastic job


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 11:40 PM

He sure did. Compare this film to a piece of tripe like "Titanic" (which was a technical tour de force, but a dreadful piece of melodrama in terms of the apparently obligatory modern love story). Compare it to Star Wars...darn good, but LOTR is better. Compare it to the Matrix trilogy...Ah...Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

No one will ever make LOTR in a way that pleases everybody. It's doubtful that anyone will ever do it better than Peter Jackson has in these 3 movies.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 11:43 PM

Good set of films. Good set of books. Limited amount of correlation between them. Movies that exactly recreated the books they were allegedly based upon went out in about 1935.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 12:18 AM

I agree the "Let's hunt orc" line was the nadir in an otherwise excellent movie, but like LH, I can forgive that one. The first two movies were excellent, and I am looking forward to seeing the last one, based on all the favourable comment I've heard on it. Long time waiting for these films and I haven't been disappointed.

And I also love the books. I can appreciate the books and movies as two separate but related works.

By the way, Tolkien was among those who invented the things now called cliché. One of the things I admire in LOTR is the way the tone of language was maintained over the whole work which was years in the writing (and developing/fleshing out). J.R.R. Tolkien never dragged us through the dirt. The man created a whole world and history. If bits of silly poetry (which, in that context, were supposed translations from his own mythological languages) were part of it, so be it. There have been far worse literary transgressions published.


p.s. I thought the slaying of Boromir was pretty close to the book version; It take a lot of uruk-hai arrows to bring him down.


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 12:21 AM

Dammit! Should have read...

...It did take a lot...


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Subject: RE: BS: LOTR ROTK - Just seen it. Brilliant!
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 12:28 AM

[i]Interesting considering that it was Two Towers that PJ said was furthest from the book... [/i]

Technically true -- the whole thing about Aragorn falling off the cliff was entirely made up, but it didn't bother me because it didn't fundamentally change the story. And the battle for Helm's Deep made a good movie climax even if it wasn't so important in the book.

But the smaller changes made to ROTK were more incompatible, IMO. Maybe it was this whole idiotic Arwen/Aragorn love thing coming to it's nauseating and predictable end despite it's utter irrelevance. Or, while the ring's destruction the way it occurs in the book would be lousy on the big screen, the alternate they used was worse and has been done SOOOO many times. Perhaps it was the sudden collapse of Sauron and... er... all that stuff (for those who haven't seen it)... that was just too cheesy. I felt the ending was the antithesis of Tolkein's message (oft repeated in the movies) that evil never dies. And if they were going to do that much postlogue, couldn't Eowyn get her happy ending? Nah, cause of the other "love story," I suppose.

Enough nitpicking. I can come up with lists for the other two, too, but their issues didn't bother me for whatever reason.

Glad ya'll loved it, but I thought it the weakest of the 3 by far. Still better than a lot of movies that get made, though.


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