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Uilleann Pipes

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GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 30 Aug 03 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,Ed 30 Aug 03 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 30 Aug 03 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 30 Aug 03 - 06:01 AM
smallpiper 30 Aug 03 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 30 Aug 03 - 10:54 AM
Malcolm Douglas 30 Aug 03 - 11:21 AM
Bill D 30 Aug 03 - 12:09 PM
Big Mick 30 Aug 03 - 01:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Aug 03 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 30 Aug 03 - 02:02 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 30 Aug 03 - 02:22 PM
Big Mick 30 Aug 03 - 02:35 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Sep 03 - 11:16 PM
Malcolm Douglas 01 Sep 03 - 11:22 PM
Seamus Kennedy 01 Sep 03 - 11:52 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Sep 03 - 01:29 AM
MartinRyan 02 Sep 03 - 03:37 AM
MartinRyan 02 Sep 03 - 03:42 AM
fogie 02 Sep 03 - 04:04 AM
smallpiper 02 Sep 03 - 05:19 AM
InOBU 02 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM
InOBU 02 Sep 03 - 08:56 AM
Big Mick 02 Sep 03 - 10:14 AM
InOBU 02 Sep 03 - 10:40 AM
GUEST 02 Sep 03 - 02:13 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 02 Sep 03 - 02:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Sep 03 - 05:03 PM
David Ingerson 02 Sep 03 - 08:34 PM
InOBU 02 Sep 03 - 10:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Sep 03 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Me 03 Sep 03 - 04:58 AM
greg stephens 03 Sep 03 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Me again 03 Sep 03 - 07:50 AM
Pied Piper 03 Sep 03 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Me 03 Sep 03 - 08:08 AM
smallpiper 03 Sep 03 - 08:15 AM
Pied Piper 03 Sep 03 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Me 03 Sep 03 - 08:42 AM
greg stephens 03 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM
InOBU 03 Sep 03 - 04:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 03 - 07:03 PM
GUEST 03 Sep 03 - 07:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 03 - 08:06 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Sep 03 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,Me 03 Sep 03 - 09:12 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 03 Sep 03 - 10:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 03 - 11:12 PM
InOBU 03 Sep 03 - 11:20 PM
GUEST 04 Sep 03 - 01:48 AM
InOBU 04 Sep 03 - 11:39 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 03 - 11:48 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Sep 03 - 03:20 PM
InOBU 04 Sep 03 - 03:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 03 - 04:29 PM
InOBU 04 Sep 03 - 04:42 PM
Áine 04 Sep 03 - 06:11 PM
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McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 03 - 07:18 PM
LadyJean 05 Sep 03 - 12:00 AM
Pied Piper 05 Sep 03 - 06:27 AM
GUEST 05 Sep 03 - 07:23 AM
GUEST 05 Sep 03 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 05 Sep 03 - 05:41 PM
Nerd 05 Sep 03 - 06:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Sep 03 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Big Mick 05 Sep 03 - 06:35 PM
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GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 06 Sep 03 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 06 Sep 03 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 06 Sep 03 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 06 Sep 03 - 12:03 PM
GUEST 06 Sep 03 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Sheila 06 Sep 03 - 06:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Sep 03 - 09:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Sep 03 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 07 Sep 03 - 02:05 AM
Jim McLean 08 Sep 03 - 09:17 AM
pattyClink 08 Sep 03 - 10:06 AM
Pied Piper 08 Sep 03 - 12:09 PM
smallpiper 08 Sep 03 - 01:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Sep 03 - 01:29 PM
Jim McLean 08 Sep 03 - 02:03 PM
Nerd 08 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM
Nerd 08 Sep 03 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,hoss 08 Sep 03 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 08 Sep 03 - 07:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Sep 03 - 08:03 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Sep 03 - 09:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Sep 03 - 09:27 PM
Nerd 08 Sep 03 - 10:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Sep 03 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 08 Sep 03 - 11:44 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 09 Sep 03 - 12:04 AM
Nerd 09 Sep 03 - 01:00 AM
Nerd 09 Sep 03 - 01:24 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Sep 03 - 01:36 AM
Malcolm Douglas 09 Sep 03 - 02:29 AM
Pied Piper 09 Sep 03 - 05:22 AM
smallpiper 09 Sep 03 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 09 Sep 03 - 07:33 AM
InOBU 09 Sep 03 - 07:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Sep 03 - 08:14 AM
The Fooles Troupe 09 Sep 03 - 08:17 AM
Nerd 09 Sep 03 - 10:49 AM
Dave Bryant 09 Sep 03 - 11:29 AM
Pied Piper 09 Sep 03 - 11:52 AM
InOBU 09 Sep 03 - 11:53 AM
Nerd 09 Sep 03 - 12:08 PM
ploughflyer 09 Sep 03 - 12:27 PM
Nerd 09 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Sep 03 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 09 Sep 03 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 09 Sep 03 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 09 Sep 03 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Sheila 09 Sep 03 - 06:54 PM
The Fooles Troupe 09 Sep 03 - 09:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Sep 03 - 10:12 PM
Malcolm Douglas 09 Sep 03 - 10:58 PM
Dave Bryant 10 Sep 03 - 05:27 AM
Pied Piper 10 Sep 03 - 06:30 AM
InOBU 10 Sep 03 - 07:44 AM
smallpiper 10 Sep 03 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 10 Sep 03 - 12:55 PM
Nerd 10 Sep 03 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 10 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM
Nerd 10 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Sep 03 - 03:23 PM
Nerd 10 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Sep 03 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 10 Sep 03 - 05:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Sep 03 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Briton 10 Sep 03 - 05:49 PM
GUEST 10 Sep 03 - 05:50 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 10 Sep 03 - 06:48 PM
Nerd 10 Sep 03 - 06:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Sep 03 - 07:00 PM
Nerd 10 Sep 03 - 07:03 PM
smallpiper 10 Sep 03 - 07:09 PM
Pied Piper 11 Sep 03 - 05:26 AM
greg stephens 11 Sep 03 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 11 Sep 03 - 01:54 PM
Nerd 11 Sep 03 - 06:55 PM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Sep 03 - 07:25 PM
Nerd 11 Sep 03 - 08:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Sep 03 - 09:13 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 11 Sep 03 - 09:34 PM
smallpiper 12 Sep 03 - 04:31 AM
greg stephens 12 Sep 03 - 05:02 AM
smallpiper 12 Sep 03 - 05:29 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 12 Sep 03 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 12 Sep 03 - 07:54 AM
greg stephens 12 Sep 03 - 08:08 AM
AKS 12 Sep 03 - 08:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM
InOBU 12 Sep 03 - 09:02 AM
smallpiper 12 Sep 03 - 09:10 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 12 Sep 03 - 10:18 AM
smallpiper 12 Sep 03 - 01:54 PM
LadyJean 13 Sep 03 - 12:09 AM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Sep 03 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 13 Sep 03 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,BillH 08 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM
Big Mick 08 Nov 06 - 02:31 PM
Paul Burke 09 Nov 06 - 03:23 AM
Big Mick 09 Nov 06 - 07:09 AM
Les in Chorlton 10 Nov 06 - 04:35 AM
Les in Chorlton 10 Nov 06 - 04:53 AM
Paul Burke 10 Nov 06 - 05:52 AM
Big Mick 19 Feb 08 - 11:19 PM
Les in Chorlton 20 Feb 08 - 03:53 AM
Jack Campin 20 Feb 08 - 06:56 AM
GUEST 20 Feb 08 - 07:05 AM
Les in Chorlton 20 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM
Jack Campin 20 Feb 08 - 08:13 AM
Les in Chorlton 20 Feb 08 - 11:07 AM
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Subject: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 04:44 AM

I was watching Ben play the pipes at Chorlton Folk Club last Thursday, really exciting music.

I have seen lots of drawings of bagpipes and they clearly go back a long way. But, sorry I am sure I am failing to spell Ullean correctly, Ullean, and for that matter, Northumbrian and other pipes are amazing pices of technology.

Am I correct in assuming that, whilst bagpipes in gemeral are very old, ie pre-industrial revolution by hundreds if not thousands of years, Ullean pipes are post industrial revolution? They have so many sophisticated pieces of metal that looks like it needed to be measued and crafted to a high degree of accuracy. They look technologically close to concertinas and accordeons.

So, when and where did they evolve and from what?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 04:59 AM

Taken from this page:

"Native to Ireland and England, uilleann pipes date back about 300 years to the beginning of the 18th century and probably share some common ancestry with Scots lowland pipes and other bellows blown pipes of the region. The design of the pipes as we know them today, with three drones and three regulators, stabilized around the start of the 19th century."


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 05:04 AM

Thanks a lot


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 06:01 AM

That site gives a nice, succinct account, alright. However, while uilleann does indeed mean elbow , the term was only applied to the pipes from the begining of the 20th C., as far as I remember.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 07:45 AM

Prior to that they where called Union pipes. Make of that what you will.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 10:54 AM

Irish history has a bitter account of the evolution of what we today
call the Uillean Pipes. The earlier Englishlanguage reports are peppered with political preference and downright literary bullying though if you look in Irishgaelic writings there were fewer reports porbably due to the famine and other social factors, but these used
the name Uilleann - lit elbow - as the name for the new pipes.

While the Island remained under London, without break there was always an undercurrent of revolution, and these dissenters from the Crown liberaly used native song and dance to broacast. However unfortunely for them but happily for our ears today, HM Governor banned the Irish Pibmor.

The official reason for the ban was the 'seditious' uses of it etc. The musical community soon found other bagpipes which were not loud and thus could not be heard by the 'Forces of The Crown'-allowing pipers to play but quietly-, and during the late 1700s early 1800's native instrument makers, Coyne and Egan, were perfecting the 'long bore' chanter which eventually became the modern Uillean Pipes.

Arguements against the name Uillean are always based on the incorrect
assumtion that because a couple of English speaking Irish instrument makers adopted the term Unionpipe -union of Chanter and Regulators-, there was no debate since the makers must know what they meant to say.
Well that may be true but some other makers didn't do that and most of the musicians as well as the abused piping community soon took to using and Irishgaelic word Uillean. In short no matter what HM officialdom did the native people said 'screw you' and made the issue
an act of sedition as well. Ie those using the words Union were unionists and those Uilleann, republican.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 11:21 AM

The "elbow pipes" etymology was proposed by the notorious fantasist Grattan Flood, and subsequently became "received wisdom", though there is little evidence to support it. Arguments continue to this day, but historians of the subject tend to favour "union pipes" as the original term. I haven't come across that political explanation before, I think, and I wouldn't know how much weight to attach to it; probably not very much, as it seems itself to be based on rather a lot of assumptions. The matter has been discussed in greater detail in previous threads.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 12:09 PM

'Uillean Pipes' should certainly serve as a more neutral term (and more descriptive), but those who prefer to wear their history like a uniform and wallow in the nuances of terminology can always find a way to turn any designation into a political debate. It saddens me.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 01:24 PM

Bill, the use of pipes as an act of defiance, and England's attempt to silence the pipers are well known facts. But, like you, I find the debate to be pointless. The fact is that this instrument has come to be identified almost exclusively as an Irish instrument, and the name accepted as proper by the vast majority of the players is "Uilleann Pipe". We are a small, but growing, community as the rest of the world figures out just how versatile this instrument is. It is difficult to learn to play, but the setup/tuning of it is what causes most of the problems. As it becomes more popular, it will also become more standardised and this will help resolve some of the problems. We are starting to see a movement for more standardised teaching of technique, which I think is a good thing in terms of the basic skillset. But at some point, it is up to the piper to go on and develope his/her own technique. That is one of the things that set us apart from our cousins in the Highland piping community. One is judged, in that community, by how rigidly they follow the standards of how a tune is played. Those standards seem to serve that discipline well, but UP'ers prefer the whole idea of never playing the same tune the same way twice. Musical scores are fine in our tradition, as long as you only use them to learn it the first time. After that, play it like you feel it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 01:35 PM

In one of Shakespeare's plays, there is a reference to 'woolen' pipes. Some have taken this to mean uillean, but this is dubious. This was in a previous thread- perhaps someone remembers the reference and the thread.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 02:02 PM

Indeed Mr Douglas you may speak from literary sources, I OTOH from
my grandfathers generation having FIRST hand accounts which I have
absolutely no doubt about, why Sir would they have lies so to their
own family? BTW My grandfolk made and played these instruments as well
as the Flute and little Feadog.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 02:22 PM

Big Mick comments on a growing standardization for the elbow pipes.
The military standardized the playing of the highland pipes in a way that stole the life and soul from the music. It got everyone playing to a standard that greatly discouraged individual innovation , and the Gaelic lilt was lost to an English sense of timing.
Don't let that happen to the Irish music!
By the way, there are great players of the highland pipes such as Barry Shears who are dedicated to playing in the old Gaelic style.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 02:35 PM

Sandy, I agree with you with regard to the timing of the music. The standardization that I am referring to has to do with basic technique only. As the popularity of the instrument grows, the "mystical" aspects of setting them up, tuning them for a gig, and the basic use of rolls, cuts, crans, and other ornaments and graces need to be formalized in order that it isn't so damn hard to find the information and get tuition. Remember that, until fairly recently, this was an instrument designed for solo playing. It's tuning was only relative to itself. Now that it is being played in ensembles, the need to standardise certain aspects of its construction and playing. HOWEVER, that does not mean I am in favor of standardization of the correct way to play any style of the music. One of the things that created our greatest UP'ers (such as Clancy, Rowsomme, and on and on)was the habit of playing on their own and interpreting as they felt. I agree completely with you that I would not want to see any standardization of "the right way to play a tune".

You mentioned the old "Gaelic" style of playing the warpipes. Can you direct me to any resources on this? I am purchasing a Great Highland practice chanter, and eventually want to add a set of Irish Warpipes to my collection. I am very interested in learning this instrument in the Gaelic style.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 11:16 PM

The "woolen" pipes appear in the Merchant of Venice. No one knows what they were.
Seamus Ennis, in a tape put out by green Linnet in 1977, says that he plays on pipes made 150 years ago by Coyne in Dublin.

I guess that the argument about Union pipes will continue. The Oxford English Dictionary passes, saying "The etymological relationship between the two terms [uillean and union] is uncertain." They go on to say that uillean is now predominant.
The earliest publication in English of the term uillean seems to be in Grove's Dictionary of Music, 1906. Anyone with verifiable earlier examples?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 11:22 PM

So far as I know, it has never been suggested by anybody who understands how language works that "union", as applied to the bellows-blown Irish bagpipes, has any connection whatever to any political "union". That is Fakelore, not history, however much the myth may be believed by the credulous. If "sorefingers" has evidence to support his comments on the uilleann pipes, then he should certainly contact some of the Irish musical historians specialising in such matters, who would, I am sure, be glad to learn something that their best efforts have not, so far, revealed to them.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 11:52 PM

The Union/Uilleann story that I'd always heard was that Union was simply an English mispronunciation of the written "Uilleann".
Apparently some Brit read the word "Uilleann", pronounced it "Yooly-an", and it was picked up and passes on as "Union."
As good a theory as any, I suppose.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 01:29 AM

Well, no, it isn't; not unless there is some kind of evidence for that assumption; which, so far, we don't have. People will believe what they want to, though, particularly when, as in this case, an apparently false etymology has been repeated so often since its original publication about a century ago that it has become "received wisdom". (See, principally, Wm. Grattan Flood, A History of Irish Music, 1905). Fantasy is so often more agreeable than fact, particularly where folk music (in almost any country) is concerned; and especially where there are also political considerations involved.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 03:37 AM

Malcolm

Did Flood write the Grove (1906) entry? Or was he the source?

While I am no expert on 19C. dictionaries of Irish, I have in the past had a look - and could find nothing to support the "uilleann" theory. I know that the experts in the pipers organisation concur with the belief that Flood created it. That, of curse, doesn't prevent them from calling their organisation Na Píobairí Uilleann AND, in English The Pipers Club !

Like "craic" this is an example of a word/term coming relatively late into Irish and become so assimilated that people believe it was always there!

Regards
p.s. It's a pity to see the bag's bladder becoming a political football....


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 03:42 AM

It was, of course, Q who mentioned Grove.

Regards

p.s. See how easy it is to confuse sources?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: fogie
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 04:04 AM

It would be interesting to have comments on the relative virtues of the various keys of the chanters in use. I presume that the Bb and D predominate, but being a Bb instrument player myself, I'd like to know if UPs prefer to play Bb solo, as opposed to in consorts.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 05:19 AM

I really don't think that it matters that much Uillean was mis pronounced or misapropriated in to or out of union (or the other way around) the accepted name is now Uillian.

Big Mick and Sandy MeLean there is a hot movement in scotland (which is being really frowned upon by the piping establishment) to restore (or as I prefer to call it Demilitarise) the music. They are learning from pipers and the piping tradition as was carried accross the pond before the standardisation of the music and playing and are bringing it back into mainstream music. Admittedly it is being done by predominantly smallpipers and border pipers but it has champions in the Highland piping circles as well.

Try Hamish Moore for more information.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM

Well, the way I heard it is that Packy Og O'Scuid invented the Uilleann Pipes on July 8th, 1625 at 8 pm, when his wife Peggy belted him in the head with the bellows from the fire. A lightbulb went off in his head, remarkable so many years before Tomas Edison's cook invented the light bulb as a joke, and as I was saying Packy suddunly realized that he could drink and play at the same time if instead of getting belted in the head with bellows, he could belt bellows around his waist and play the pipes. Shortly there after (fourty years to be exact) he finnally made a playable reed, and well, then having nothing else challenging before him, he stole a bunch of chanters from pipers of varrious sizes (the key one played in in the 17th cent, was determined by the size of the piper not the pipes, which were fitted to the piper) slapped some keys on them and invented regulaters, called regulators because now pipers of any size could play one set of pipes, now in the key of Gee Wiz. After a particulary heavy rain, the pipes swelled up to D (short for damn but these effin pipes is wet, Peg) and well, Paddy Keenan was sure to follow. So, then came the diddle dahs and the fiddley gees and Seamus Ennis, and all, not to mention Michael Comba O'Sullivan and Tomas Edison's pixie dust machine.
Eventualy Seth Galligher invented the playable set of pipes, so that playing was not based on the wittleing skill of the player but on solid German rules of craft, mass production on a tiny scale and you should try his flutes as well, but keep his chanters away from Tim Britton and I will say no more about that, except that a good pakistani dinner can be had in Jackson hights for much less than the price of a set of Uilleann pipes, washed down with a dram of whiskey and well, the rest is silence.
I hope this helps, what was the question again?
Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:56 AM

PS Did ya see my new song, After the victory, Mick?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:14 AM

Larry, I lost much of my email. Can you direct me to where I can see it?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:40 AM

Ohhhh about five days back on Mudcat, maybe seven, New SOng, After the Victory... here, I will bring it up with an ol' refresh. CHeers Larry.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 02:13 PM

http://www.tyronepipers.com/subversion_in_scottish_music.htm

Big Mick,
   You will find some good information at this site.
Also, if you search for "Barry Shears" on Google it should turn up some leads.
   Sandy


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 02:30 PM

Sorry for posting above as guest...... lost that damn cookie again. :-}


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 05:03 PM

I posted mention of uillean in Grove, 1906, but, not having that book of that date available, I don't know who wrote the reference.

Oxford English Dictionary:
Union pipes- "A form of bagpipes in which the wind-bag is inflated by bellows worked by the elbow." OED. From piob uilleann, piob = pipe plus genitive singular of uille (= elbow).
The word uillean was admitted to the OED in the 1987 Supplement.

Now lets not have any argument with the authority! (He, he, he!)


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: David Ingerson
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:34 PM

There's been a lot of interesting info and arguments in this thread.

I seem to remember drawings of pipers playing with foot-driven bellows on the floor. Would that make them cois pipes?

David


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:11 PM

Yes indeed, Daithi, that would be elbowless Ed Edwards of Ennis... who was also known for a number of other antics on the floor. He invented the hot foot in 1266, and wrote the pipe tune Kittys Rambles to the child's sauspan. - Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 11:29 PM

Q said "In one of Shakespeare's plays, there is a reference to 'woolen' pipes"

Taking into account the path that the written (many and various) versions (and "corrected versions") of his plays have taken thru history to get to us with the enormous amount of misprintings, misreadings when setting up printers type, change of spellings, phoenetic spellings, spellings were variable, even by a person spelling his own name at times, the fact that "English Spelling" was not a "Standardised" thing until the 18-19th C...

W i.e. "double u" could easily have been an attempt to write "UU" instead of "W" thus the "Wah" sound possibly should have been read as nearer "eeooo"...

thus "uuoolen" - which to my cloth ears sounds remarkably close... what with several hundred years and all.....

:-)

Robin


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:58 AM

Malcolm Douglas is, as usual, right on. Breandan Breathnach took the name 'Union' to come from union of the regulator to the pipes (about 1730?). He noted Grattan-Flood's nonsense about 'Ullean' but couldn't wipe out the 'Ullean' myth at his late date, and was himself head of a big Ullean Pipers group.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:50 AM

It is easy to lump Uillean together with craic and saisiun and bodhran as the most obvious excesses of the "Celtic industry" version of history. But I certainly find the Shakespearean "woollen pipes" very intriguing. I have pondered this vexed question for decades, and I havent come up with any other acceptable theory for what Shakespeare meant. On the other side of the argument, though, you would sort of expect the odd example of somebody's diary saying "bought a nice set of uileean pipes today" in 1650 or whatever, if the term had really been in use since 1600. My head tells me the "modern bogus invention" is prtobably right, but I have a sneaky affection for the idea that Shakespeare might just have picked up the term in London, and been right.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Me again
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:50 AM

Foolstoupe is right on. Note how many spellings of 'Ullean' we have in this thread. A 17th (or 18th) century Englishman would use English phonetics to spell Gaelic words, so we'd get something like 'Ilian', and wonder if that was a slightly fouled up name of a Greek island.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:06 AM

The modern Irish Pipes (uillean, woollen, hilan, union) evolved from an instrument called the Pastoral or New Bagpipe invented sometime around 1700 in the lowlands of Scotland. It was intended to have a larger range than other contemporary Pipes, and be chromatic allowing the Baroqueing up of trad tunes. This Bagpipe was used in the Beggars Opera.
Pastoral Pipes
I think it highly unlikely that bellows for Pipes reached Ireland by 1600 especially when the evidence consists of 1 quote with no other corroboration.
The Pipes reached their present form in 19th century America were they changed key from Bb/C to D in order to play in Vaudeville.

All the best PP


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:08 AM

Shakespeare left nothing of his plays, poems, or songs in his own hand. Plays and songs in them were taken down by copyists during performances, and they made a lot of errors. Not all can be corrected.


'Hey the doxie over the dale'. That 'dale' is nonsense. Shakespeare/Shakspere is using Cant, Peddler's French or whatever you want to call it, (Irish Gypsys, now called Travelers, still use a form of it) and women were doxies, dells, morts, autem morts, etc depending on age, virginity, and married status.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:15 AM

spot on pp


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:21 AM

Here's an engraving by Hogarth of the Pastoral Pipes in operation.
Beggars Opera


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:42 AM

'Tinkers and Travelers', by Sharon Gmelch, 1975, gives Shelta and Gamon as the curent names of Cant in Ireland, and it has little in it from Gaelic. Alas she gives us no examples of it.


The songs in this book were collected by others (Carroll and Mackenzie) and they're all English ones. At page 138 you will find "Marie from Gippursland", a very bawdy song that seems to have appeared in the 1730s with a Scots Gaelic title which translates to "Morag/Marion the daughter of the beggar" (She's Moreen/ in early Irish) More recent texts give her name as Mallie, Marie, etc. Jim Carroll has collected a more recent version which hasn't been published yet. To see the earliest known text (a traditional one from Northumberland) click on Morag/ Moreen in the in Scarce Songs 2 file at www.erols.com/olsonw


Our founder here Dick G, seemed to like it, unless his comment was really facetious.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM

Pied Piper: where does the information come from that pastoral bagpipes were used in a production of the Beggar's Opera? I've read a lot about this play and it's history, and I've never come across a reference to these pipes. Where did you you get that from?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM

Hogarth's 1728 illustration was a burlesque of a scene from the Beggar's Opera. Whether the pastoral pipes actually were used during a performance is not answered definitively by the illustration. All that can be gathered from the scene is that these pipes were known to Hogarth.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:54 PM

Hi Guest Me... for a book with a few words of Shelta, and an all round good book about Pavees (Irish Travellers) Puck of the Dromes is good, can't remember who wrote it. Manya louie, shem - Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:03 PM

"Bloke" is I suppose the most common Shelta word in daily use in this part of the world (and Australia).

Whatever the origin of the term, calling them "elbow pipes" (in whatever language) seems the most sensible way of describing the family of instruments which use a bellows operated by the elbow. The Irish version, or rather the Irish versions, are only some of the varieties in current existance. (Though I suspect quite a lot of these are revivals amd reconstructions rather than survivals.)

I came across a modern photo of some craftsmen working on a Hindu temple, and they were carving a big statue of the God Ganesha, who has an Elephant head. Intriguingly, he was portrayed in the statue as playing some kind of elbow pipes - which actually looked extremely like an Irish set. I know that the Scottish military bagpipe tradition was carried on in the armies of Pakistan and India after the British left - but it'd be interesting to know the situation regarding any other bagpipe traditions in the sub-continent.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:40 PM

Tinkers use it to communicate between themselves when they don't want non-Tinkers to understand. They don't want non-Tinkers to get have a dictionary of their private language.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:06 PM

Difficult to go back beyond the Greeks and Romans, who had bagpipes worked with a small bellows. In the foundations of the praetorian camp at Richborough was found a small bronze of a Roman soldier playing bagpipes; more of the type now used in the Highlands rather than the Northumbrian or union type. The ancient Persians had bagpipes.
The Romans probably introduced the instrument to the British Isles.

1851, Mayhew, in "London Labour," is the earliest to mention bloke: "If we met an old bloke, we propped him."
Possibly from Gipsy and Hindu boke- a man, fellow. Introduced by returning soldiers?


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 09:12 PM

The fact that the Romans knew a form of bagpipe doesn't mean that they introduced them to Britain; it isn't impossible, but there's no evidence of pipes being played here anything like that early (they begin to be mentioned in England, and rather later in Scotland, in the wake of the first crusade, which also gave us the kettle drum). Is there any evidence of bagpipes blown with bellows before the development of the Musette at the French court? I've never heard of Roman bellows pipes; the very sketchy records surviving suggest that they had a simple mouth-blown variety, not unlike the more primitive ones still found in Northern Africa and the Near East, and probably recently imported from there.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 09:12 PM

Farmer and Henly, 'Slang and Its Analogues' give 'bloke' from 1883, but as slang, not Cant/Shelta. A Tinker using Cant/Shelta would probably use 'cove'. E.g., title of old song 'The cove what sings'.
J. S. Farmer has a whole book of cant songs, and I think it title was 'Musa Pedestra' (but I only glanced at it once). There were several small songbook collections of such in the 18th century. Look at an Irish imitation, probably in DT, "The Night before Larry was stretched". [If not there, a traditional version is listed in 'The Traditional Ballad Index'.] The 'Larry' one (c 1784) used the tune of, and probably imitated a rare song of c 1730, "The Bowman Prigg's Farewell" {I have only a few verses., and have been frustrated in attempts to get a complete text. Promised by Glasgow Univ. Lib., but never delivered.) A 'Bowman' was a pick-purse, and Mr. Prigg was caught, and was facing execution.]


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 10:18 PM

shakespear is rubbish, you cant even tell waht they are on about.john


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:12 PM

The Encyclopaedia Britannica takes the figurine of the Roman soldier bagpipe player as evidence of the utriculus (or bag) bagpipe in England in Roman times.
Roman bagpipes were of the utriculus (tibia utricularis or pipe with bag) type. One image shows paired chanters and a drone. The reservoir is not known before the Roman examples. The Romans (and their Greek contemporaries in Egypt) were musically sophistocated, having invented the hydraulus, the direct ancestor of the pipe organ. Suetonius (ca. 69-140 AD) described the Roman instrument. The instrument with bag also is shown on Roman coins. Anything before then is speculative- pipes but no bag.

One website discussion suggests that the bagpipe came to England with Celts before the Romans, but this is just wishful (hopeful? wistful?) thinking on the part of some Scot or Irishman. No evidence whatsoever.

The Oxford History of Music discusses bagpipes(?) shown on a Hittite slab, ca. 1000 BC. (haven't seen the image, but doubt that there was a bag). I can't find any evidence that the Persians had real bagpipes, although mention is made in the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

The bagpipe from India is known as a mushug- no idea of construction.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:20 PM

Tinkers use it to communicate between themselves when they don't want non-Tinkers to understand. They don't want non-Tinkers to get have a dictionary of their private language....

Dear Guest... Not the case. Pavees are very happy to share information about their language, as are Romani people. However, there is so little interest in the scholarly community it is almost impossible to fund such projects. There are dictionaries of Romaness, and glosseries of Shelta. And knock off using the T word, it is a vestage of a past of discrimination of which, settled folks should not be very proud ... Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:48 AM

Gmelch, cited above refers to Shelta as a secret language, but doesn't say how secret. She notes that there are Tinkers with very extensive knowledge in judging condition of horses. A tinker seller is a 'blocker', and she explains what they do and who in the trading scheme is called what in slang or Shelta terms.


She doesn't explain one mode that I once read about. The Tinker seller would get another Tinker as bidder to compete with a potential non-tinker buyer. The seller would size up the non-tinker buyer as they went through the process, and use Shelta to signal the 'buyer' Tinker when to raise or hold on a bid, and usually work the price up considerably.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:39 AM

Well, if you continue to use the T word, I have nothing to say to you.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:48 AM

My appologies, that should have been Traveller.


Where I didn't look before, Gmelch, p. 23: The use of Shelta as
the language of the road also strengthened their [Travellers]
identity. As used by travellers today it is a true "cant" or form
of disguised communication, whose purpose is to conceal the
meaning from outsiders.



Note that the Traveller horse seller (blocker) in that bid setup I
described above must be a master of applied psychology.
Having haggled to some price, they go through another cycle.
'blocker' finds some new perfection in the horse and talks it up,
watching non-Traveler's facial expression and any of his body
language for clues to his thinking. 'blocker', judging when he
might get another pound higher bid, uses Shelta to signal
Traveler dummy-bidder to up the bid by a pound. Non-Traveler sees
dummy bidder knows his horseflesh so its a good deal, and worth
it to up the bid a few more shillings to get such a magnificent
animal, while 'blocker' is studying the horse for new
perfections, and so repeat the cycle.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 03:20 PM

More wandering thread-
With regard to shelta, a lot of the "secret language" idea comes from the title of a book that actually has a brief dictionary-grammar and explanation of the language. Sometimes the title can be applied by the publisher for sales purposes.
In any case, R. A. Stewart Macalister, 1937, "The Secret Languages of Ireland," Cambridge University Press, perhaps had a lot to do with that popular conception. It was the primary reference for some time.

On the other hand, many Travelers seem unwilling to discuss their Cant. See Shelta


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 03:59 PM

Well... I apreciate you changing the term to Traveller. Tell ya what, in order that this is not thread creap... I will start another thread. On the topic, if it were not for the fact that Travellers share their culture, a lot of us would not be Uilleann pipers...
Cheers Lorcan "Larry" Otway


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 04:29 PM

Mind, both "Tinker" and "Traveller" are open to the same objection - they refer to something that anybody might well do in certain times and places, and use that as a label for an ethnic minority that includes people who don't do either of those things.

Mending tin cans and kettles is a trade that anyone might need to learn (though it's not one for which there's a great demand at present in Western countriesa anyway). And the same goes for a travelling way of life, as evidenced by the "New Age Travellers" phenomenon.

And when people want to insult members of an out-group, they'll use any word that comes to hand. Doesn't take long and "Traveller" takes on the same power to hurt as "Tinker". In fact in many places that has happened already.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 04:42 PM

True enough, McGrath, however in the US, Travellers do not use the term Pavee. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Áine
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:11 PM

A big 'hey ya'll' to Lor and McGrath . . .

Seems this thread has definitely drifted from the potentially very interesting topic of uillean pipes; so, ya'll get back to it, OK?

Does anyone know of other good resources that discuss the history of the pipes (all kinds)? For my part, it seems that the idea for the pipes can be found in many ancient cultures, just as the idea of the flute and/or whistle can be found).

All the best, Áine (descendant of both Pipers and Travellers, and damn proud of it)


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:26 PM

Quite right, back to the pipes on this thread.

"The bagpipe from India is known as a mushug"

A rapid Google hasn't been able to find the term, and all "Indian bagpipes" came up with were Scottish style instruments made there, Stewart tartan and all. And yet Ganesha was definitely holding elbow pipes of soem type in that photo. There must be some reason for that. (Of course the Hindu temple in London is in Neasden, hard by Cricklewood which is very Irish, so maybe there's some cross-cultural fertilisation going around.

Apropos of nothing I've got a nice little wooden statue of Ganesha - I bought it in a Catholic Christmas bazaar in Harlow. Very ecumenical. (St Ganesha, patron saint of elephants...and maybe of uilleann pipers.)


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:41 PM

As for Skespear's "woollen pipes", I've got a feeling that more probably refers to the fabric covering the bag. And it's been suggested also that it might just be a typo for "wooden".


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 07:18 PM

And here is a quote from a site I found about "Samode...in the royal Indian state of Rajasthan":

"During the day, a camel ride through the Samode village and the surrounding countryside is a good idea. Riding this gentle animal with its rocking gait is the best way to relax on a sunny morning. A real visit to Samode cannot be considered complete without a musical evening of folk dances and songs. Rajasthani bards and musicians with their colourful dresses and unusual musical instruments provide one of the best evenings one can have in India. The instruments include one-stringed fiddles, country violins, bagpipes made out of goatskin, castanets, Jew's harps, and even a one stringed instrument made out of a dried gourd. The villagers sing with plaintive abandon under the faint light of the crystal stars. A musical evening can be arranged at a short notice at the Samode Palace."

Sounds pretty good to me...When the lottery comes good, I'll be round there alright.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 12:00 AM

There was a fellow at the S.C.A's annual Pensic War, playing a goatskin (with the fur still on!) bagpipe with one drone. I didn't like it as much as Wolgemut's pipes, or the fine Highland piper at the Mountain Confederation's bagpiping contest. (If that man's name wasn't MacCrimmon, it should have been!) But it was interesting. His had a blowpipe and chanter. I didn't get a chance to ask about country of origin.
Re. Shelta, I grew up in Squirrel Hill, a Jewish neighborhood. A lot of the older people spoke Yiddish. In a way it was a "secret language", sometimes spoken to conceal things from gentiles, or from children who didn't speak the language. But there are dictionaries. There's a very rich Yiddish literary tradition. French was a "secret language" among wealthy Victorians, used to conceal things from children and servants. "Secret language" is in the ear of the beholder.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:27 AM

The Mashak is not a fictional instrument here is CD(Music from the Shrines of Ajmer & Mundra) with a recording of it.

PP


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:23 AM

Goatskin bag with fur? Mark Gilson has been seen (and heard) again|


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 12:52 PM

Back off the track. Farmer and Henley's dictionary 'Slang and it Analogues' has Cant among the analogues, with many definitions given, with dates first found.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 05:41 PM

The Piedpiper theory is also wishful thinking.

Over a lifetime of observation I notice that as soon as a visitor to - in pre Chieftains days - Ireland heard a piper, they became hellbent on getting a set. Very soon playing the thing - in their own way OC - there would be all kinds of theories about the origins of the instrument and the rest. IOW I have witnessed this debate before many a time.

OBU's comments about the Travellers - to me at least - is just nonsense. It ain't true OBU, somebody is telling you lies.

The asserted Scottish origin for the instrument itself sounds to me like a get-even strategy for the old joke that used go the rounds about how the Irish gave the Highlanders the Pibmor, - saying 'you can make music on that ' ... ho ho ho(which I don't think is funny)

However it is simply NOT true that the native pipes were thrown away and replaced by a Scottish import! It did not happen. What did happen is far simpler and easier to comprehend; playing the loud Pipes being a crime the Piper/makers set about narrowing the bore - if you know anything about this I hardly need explain .. if not go ask somebody that does - and fiddling about with designs to make the instrument quieter. IOW They DID NOT plan to build the elbow pipes. It was a response to new laws.

The bellows; the real story here - what may have compelled the researching pipemaker perhaps more than anything else to use a bellows, is the ammount of air necessary to power the lower pitched instrument. Now that forced some kind of accomodation, but saying the Irish pipemaker copied a Scottish bellows is simply nonsense; why would he? there were bellows hanging on the 'hob' of every cottage in the country!

Nonanglohistory.

The bagpipe is found in Galicia and it was from there that the Gaelic people began their migration to the Island of Ireland BEFORE there ever was a Scotland. Arriving in Ireland these people already had the bagpipes. When after thousands of years the Gaels invaded the Highland of Scotland they brought with them these same bagpipes; despite English propaganda for hundreds of years denying the facts, the Bagpipe that is played today in Scotland - joke or no joke- came from
Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:16 PM

Sorefingers,

There is no evidence at all that the bagpipe that they have in Galicia is anywhere near as old as the early Gaelic migrations from Spain to Ireland. Now THAT is nonsense. And remember, the Galicians were Brythonic, not Gaelic Celts, so the Celts who allegedly left Spain and settled in Ireland were not Galician at all, but a population who subsequently disappeared from Spain entirely.

Galician bagpipes and those of the rest of Spain are clearly derived from the common west European medieval bagpipe. They were almost certainly part of the Roman and medieval dissemination of the instrument.

Celtic nationalists love to claim the bagpipes as an aboriginal Celtic instrument, but there is no evidence for their use among ancient Celts. Some instruments HAVE survived from early Celtic populations, particularly bone flutes and trumpets, but no bagpipes or even pictorial representations of Bagpipes, until well after the Roman era in western Europe.

One does not need to blame the illegalization of bagpipes for the development of bellows instruments. They exist in countries like France and England where bagpipes were never outlawed or even discouraged. Making smaller, quieter, bellows-blown pipes was simply a way to create a parlor instrument.   True that the Irish would not need to borrow the bellows itself, but the idea of blowing a bagpipe with a bellows also does not seem to have been Irish in origin.

The Uillean pipes is a brilliant Irish adaptation of a common western European instrument, the bellows-blown bagpipe. Those who claim otherwise do so based on Celtic pride rather than evidence.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:18 PM

And originally introduced by the Romans during their brief attempt to civilize the natives in western Europe, including Galicia, Brittany and the British Isles?

Lots of bun(ff) but no meat.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:35 PM

There is a fair good argument to support that the forerunner to the pipes as we know them today originally came out of the area of India and Pakistan where the "Celts" began their migration out across Eastern and Western Europe. Most early European Pan Celtic cultures had some form of them, and they developed in common, yet unique ways, into the myriad of instruments we know as bagpipes today. To sit and waste bandwidth arguing about some of this seems silly to me. The simple fact is that the Irish introduced what we now call bagpipes to Scotland. Another fact is that the Uilleann pipes are today a uniquely Irish instrument in design and style of play. It is interesting that their versatility is being discovered and the style of playing them is evolving. Those that are bothered by this misunderstand a basic tenet of Irish music. It is always evolving. That IS the tradition. I chuckle when a new instrument or style is introduced and purists turn up their noses. A hundred years ago trad Irish music would not have included Irish bouzouki's, guitars, Low D whistles, etc.

The pipes, in all their forms, are native to many European cultures. And where they came from is subject to much conjecture.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:02 PM

Mick makes some sensible points, but there are a few large and necessary corrections: first, the Celts did not begin any migrations from India or Pakistan, and there is no evidence that they ever settled there (unlike modern Turkey, where they did settle). This is a somewhat academic point. Essentially, people speaking proto Indo-European are conjectured to have begun their migrations from India. They included ancestors of the Celts and every other Indo-European group (Romans, Greeks, Germans, etc). But the Celts did not differentiate from these other groups until later.

The first people whom scholars are comfortable calling Celtic, the Hallstatt culture, lived in Germany, France and Austria. From there Celts migrated north, south, east and West, early on into Hungary, Switzerland, etc (the so-called La Tene Culture), then everywhere from Spain to Turkey and Scotland to the Po Valley in Italy.

The idea that Bagpipes were carried with proto Indo-Europeans out of India is possible, but there is no evidence for it, and on balance the evidence is against it. If that were true, we would expect to find bagpipes among widely scattered European peoples much earlier than we actually do. There is actually no evidence of bagpipes among "most early european pan-Celtic peoples," unless you are aware of some that I am not. Pipes, maybe, but bags? No.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 01:35 AM

Bill D hasn't been following this thread, but I got to chat with him a bit tonight, and he confirmed the the man, Mark Gilson, with the furry goatskin bagpipe is a real person, not just a specter that appears at sundry festivals (my sole observation). Bill has informed me that once lived in Pennsylvania, but now lives in Florida.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 01:52 AM

I read somewhere - sorry can't remember where - probably in a a journal of the Lowland and Border Pipers Society - that the bellows blown pipe was developed as a fashion accessory. Piping being popular amoungst the nobility they (who ever they are) thought it most unseamly that these young people should go so red in the face and look so silly puffing their cheeks out whilst playing these instruments that they devised an alternative method of filling the bag i.e with bellows. I believe this may well have been in the french court rater than any other. And as we know good ideas are taken up by many sensible people.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 03:20 AM

Well, what can I say? I started this thread and got a fairly definitive answer from the editor in the first post. The rest has been utterly fascinating and I don't think it could have happened anywhere else but the Mudcat.

I was a chemist originally and have a simplistic understanding of knowledge and truth. I am unconvinced by strong assertions about people, culture and history based in very little evidence. I shared on office with a historian who felt the same way. We came to the conclusion that most accademic study works the same way. Evidence is gathered, hypothesies are constructed and tested and so on..... This strategy works well for most things except, unsurprisingly, religion, where people seem to say and think all sorts of things.

But back to the pipes.

One of the areas that has not been drawn upon, please forgive me if I missed this, is design and technology. Uillean pipes like Nothumbrian small pipes, concertinas etc. cannot be made without a fair degree of engeneering skill and accurate, sophisticated materials, design and technology. This makes these instruments post-industrial revolution.

Do we have any historians of science and technology who could chip in a bit of basic knowledge and understanding to re-assure a simple chemist?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 09:59 AM

Nerd what would *you* know about it! You don't speak either language and before Uilleanpiping became the property of 'dweedidlums dot inc' most people had never heard let alone seen one; in fact if asked what they were most likely you'd be offered 'Highland Bagpipe'


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 10:45 AM

Reading Mick's post - fair play ta ya M :) - reminded me of an answer to the claim that the Uillean Pipes were really English because the word 'Chanter' is English - ' if the Guitar evolved from the African Lute, does that make the Guitar an African invention'

Clearly it doesn't.


"One does not need /to blame/"
is yer English history a litte hard to take? the hangins of Irish pipers and all that messy ugly stuff that makes ye so feared and hated to this day in Ireland?

"the illegalization of bagpipes"
the bagpipes were not outlawed, playing them was.

" more insane bs"

What can an intelligent independent observer say or think about such as Nerd? Does this Nerd have an adgenda perhaps? Attacking the Irish or any other easy prey?

"where bagpipes were never outlawed or even discouraged"
How would you know anything about something as irrelevant as two sheep
... ummm er .. in one small corner of England where no records were ever kept and what is more..NOW I am getting excited ...

Phew, actualy Mr Knowall you are wrong - all bagpiping was banned in the Kingdom several times and what is more I know more about it than you, so shuddup what you know nuttin ...

"Making smaller, quieter, bellows-blown
pipes was simply a way to create a parlor instrument".   

Yer also a wee bit daft Jochk!

The idea of a Parlour in an Irish Mudcottage of the period is as credible as indoor plumbing in a Scottish Mudcottage of same the period - say nowt about English cottages.

And if you had the common sense to go read the actual
papers of the Crown, you might also be aware that the ban was a response to public disorder.

"... (removed too funny) "

Your credentials now so tattered that the rest of yer offering is here for public amusement
"True that the Irish would not need to borrow the bellows itself, but the
idea of blowing a bagpipe with a bellows also
does not >seem<"

Oh I dunno - you don't 'seem' to sure of yer facts ... lol

"to have been Irish in origin."


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 12:03 PM

Hello, any engineers?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 12:20 PM

Sorry, I'm a former chemist (then physicist) whose specialty now is old British Isles songs and music, but not musical instruments.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 06:29 PM

Fascinating, but would still love a pronunciation, please. YOOLY-an?
ILL-ee-an? WILL-ee-an? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 09:18 PM

Post-industrial revolution indeed! Les in Chorlton, look at these sites for engineering of a complex musical instrument with keyboard and pipes, developed by an Alexandrine engineer in the 3rd century BC.
Hydraulus

For a video, complete with the sound of the instrument, see:

As far as bagpipes are concerned, craft more than engineering is involved for this simple instrument, also well-documented from Roman times.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 09:28 PM

Odd! The connection works although wrong sentence is linked. However not all have 300 streaming, which I linked. Start with:
www.archaeologychannel.org/hydraulisint.html and check on the video, The Ancient Hydraulis.
Hydraulis


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 02:05 AM

Thanks Q.
I have to go to work, now but I will check the links out later. Good point about craft but before Abraham Darby et al every piece of iron had to be beaten into shape so it does limit what can be done, however this may prove irrelevant

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:17 AM

I have been following this thread with great interest. I play(ed) the Scottish pipes, the piob mhor, and have travelled extensively but nowhere have I seen or heard bellow pipes except in Ireland and England. In Scottish Gaelic discussions re bagpipes (or pipe, singular) there is no mention of uillean pipes but a union pipe is called piob na comh sheirm which could be translated as an harmonious pipe. A bellows pipe, piob shionnaich, is called an Irish bagpipe.
A recent posting said 'chanter' was English which, of course, comes from French and Latin before that. There are two Gaelics words for chanter, feadan or whistle, and seannsair which, to my ears, sounds like a Gaelic interpretation of chanter (soft ch sound).
As far as antiquity is concerned there is a mention in Edward Dwelly, quoting from The Expository Times, 1905 "…. The use of the bagpipe can be traced to the most remote antiquity, although it seems, if not comparatively modern in connection with the Highlands, at least to have held a second place in comparison with the harp in the estimation of the bulk of the people, until the last few centuries. The Greek word sumphonfa, which appears as an Aramic loan-word in Daniel, iii, 5, is translated as 'bagpipe' by every competent translator. There is no doubt that the verse relating the arrival of the prodigal son's brother in the New Testament, should be rendered "now his elder son was in the field, and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard the bagpipes and dancing."


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: pattyClink
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 10:06 AM

To answer Sheila: all the skilled musicians I have heard talking about them call them ILL-uhn.

To the group: thanks for this thread, I was idly following it as a curiosity. Yesterday I got to see Paddy Keenan at a festival. I didn't realize what a big deal he was at the time. It was really gratifying and impressive to hear a Piper with a capital P. I'm afraid our heat, humidity and airconditioning were giving his poor instruments fits. I was struck by the no-big-deal attitude behind the great skill, and the giant hands of the man, they looked like my gramps' and like farmers and fishermen sometimes have.

I brought some neophytes to the festival and they were asking me about wooden instruments--the length of pennywhistles but made of wood, thick like recorders. Are these just called 'whistles' as well as the narrow metal things or do they have their own names? I just had never paid attention to them before and I didn't have a clue.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 12:09 PM

Sorefingers; you are to Ethnographic history what Butyric acid is to perfume.
PP


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 01:23 PM

Jim McLean - France and parts of spain are stuffed with their own versions of bellows pipes!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 01:29 PM

The big thing with bellows pipes is that the players can sing and talk and smoke and drink while playing them, which isn't possible with the mouth version. A much more civilised procedure altogether.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 02:03 PM

Sorry, smallpiper, I've never seen them.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM

Sorefingers,

Your hysterical response to my previous post suggests that I am foolish to attempt this, but here I go.

My credentials include a doctorate in folklore, training in anthropology, archaeology and ethnomusicology, as well as one book and hundreds of articles about Celts, ancient and modern, including music. I am neither English nor Scottish, as you seem to think, nor am I an apologist for English policies in Ireland. I am also not Irish (which I believe makes me more objective in this than you) I have harbored a lifelong love of Irish people, culture, music, etc.

As I said before, and as you were unable to refute except to shrilly assert that you knew more than I, there is NO EVIDENCE that any kind of bagpipe accompanied Celts in their migration from Spain to Ireland. (I assure you, you do not know more about this than me, because there is nothing to know. There is no evidence. Unless you can cite a viable source?)

2. You say that "The idea of a Parlour in an Irish Mudcottage of the period is as credible as indoor plumbing in a Scottish Mudcottage of same the period..." is essentially correct.   But I did not say there were parlours in mudcottages. I said the Uillean pipes were a parlor instrument. This means that they were designed to be played indoors. They were also, incidentally, designed for the middle classes, not the poor, who rarely have innovative products aimed at them. Anyone who has bought a new set of Uillean pipes should be able to guess that the inhabitant of a mudcottage living on subsistence farming and/or wages could not afford one. Laboring people got their pipes (like most of their fiddles and 8-key and Boehm system wooden flutes) secondhand from middle class people, so these instruments were not designed specifically for their lifestyle. They were parlor intstruments removed from the parlor.

3. Even if I am wrong about the banning of piping in England (and I believe that the evidence in all these cases is frequently overstated), this does not disprove my point, which was that bellows-blown pipes were developed in places where piping was NOT banned, such as France. Thus to assert that the move to a smaller, quieter, bellows-blown pipe was necessarily a reaction to the banning of piping is bad logic. Can you point to a historical document such as a diary or letter in which a pipemaker writes "in order to avoid prosecution under the new anti-rioting laws, I am creating a smaller, quieter bagpipe"? I think not. Which means from the perspective of a historian of any nationality, there is NO EVIDENCE that this was the impetus behind the development of the Uillean pipes.

4. You mock my statement that the idea of using a bellows to blow a bagpipe does not SEEM to have been Irish in origin. I used this phrasing not because I do not the evidence, but because evidence in matters like this is almost never conclusive. From the best evidence available, this was a French innovation. But obviously fresh evidence would require a reassessment of this position.

I find it amusing that you take an absence of maniacal devotion to a position to be evidence for a weak argument. In fact it is because, contrary to your belief, I have no agenda in this. In archaeology and musicology as in all things, we build our theories around the available facts, we do not create facts to fit our theories. If you show me evidence of an Irish bellows-blown bagpipe that predates the earliest French evidence I'll gladly change my opinion.

But, like they say in my neighborhood, I ain't holding my breath!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 03:14 PM

Of course, for

"I used this phrasing not because I do not the evidence"

I meant

"I used this phrasing not because I do not know the evidence"


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,hoss
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 06:32 PM

Quote and make thee say what pleases me, Herr Ducktor ...quack!
"As I said before,"
as indeed endless thou art Oh donner of funny hats and daftie wellies!


"and as you were unable to refute except to shrilly"
if that be shrill care thee to suck from 'fact fountain' itsef; wherat thou would shatter, as if already the deed seem - ed un/done... shame indeed.

"assert that you knew more than I,"
-than 'me'- sounds more homely from on high; besides thee to bewitch not scorn ME, thusly would 'me' far quicker sleep and forget thy quacking.

"there is NO EVIDENCE that any kind of bagpipe accompanied Celts in their migration from Spain to Ireland."
Ah ha, misstep thee again Oh Ducktor, for the lack of it neither may
say a word! V Thomas Aquinas Ad Ignor et alt res, evermoreso a Ducktor which must blameless be for the sake of a 'good name'!


"(I assure you, you do not
know more about this than me, because there is nothing to know."
But there, dear feathery fiend, lays the lack of a plank where the webfeet may fall, I don't believe *y*o*u*.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 07:20 PM

Having heard ad infinitum these stupid arguements so many times it ain't funny, Nerd, yours is particularly ribcracking. First off - see Jim Mc Lean's posting - the last time I heard the 'true inventors were theory' was from a Yiddish school of theorising; and I am far far more convinced by that than your bs, la mussette - trebon!

Secondly I completely yeild to Jim Mc Lean since he is spot on about researching very old sources. And I have many a time been convinced by accounts of the OT where the 'Scottish' people are suggested. In fact in the lack of any other good explanation - I would take THIS one far quicker than yours.

It is far more reliable!

Again I don't mean to be shrill or anything - more humorous than that
beleive me, but why don't you learn some OTHER languages so that another worldview opens your still weak mind?

"They were also, incidentally,
>>>designed<<<<< for the middle classes,"

et ..Who to design? Where the middle class ....live in what ...

Seriously you are out of your depth on this one Nerd, just accept the fact that having a Ph D does not make you G_d, does not enable you to 'predicate' truth from your mouth. You need to learn the basis of knowledge itself, then learn some history; afterwards you might have the slightest idea that one person can't know it all. Today son you are that person.

Have a nice day in your NeighboUrhood....


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 08:03 PM

Better give up, Nerd. It's like fighting religion. Fact can never win.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:24 PM

Les: "One of the areas that has not been drawn upon, please forgive me if I missed this, is design and technology. [snip] cannot be made without a fair degree of engineering skill and accurate, sophisticated materials, design and technology. This makes [snip] post-industrial revolution."

I am very careful about making generic statements such as these nowadays. Unlike SoreFingers above, I'm not going to rant and rave.

As to "a fair degree of engineering skill and accurate, sophisticated materials, design and technology" - you should look at the "Anticythera device" (spelling?) which has now been reconstructed ... saw it in a Learning/Discovery channel doco, part of a series on ancient gadgets.

My point is that it was believed that it was impossible for the classical Greeks to make such a device (BC). The theory of the device is elaborate, but now out of period for the mathematicans. The pracicalities of construction are not as difficult as you might imagine.

For example a toothed cog wheel with 36 cogs made from brass?

Simple.

Use a protractor to divide the circumference of a circle into whatever number of divisions you wish. The period mathematics exist. Use a file to hand create the teeth, shaped however you want.

Slow. Tedious. Patience.

But the reconstructiom has now been done using only methods and tools known to exist and physically existing in relics and written records.

The device used a large number of cogged wheels to calculate astronomical movements. The world's first known analogue computer.

Much real knowledge was lost when the Library of Alexandria burned.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:27 PM

oops, I meant "NOT out of period"

Robin


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 10:17 PM

Well, sorefingers, looks like your ranting isn't convincing anyone.

One question: on what basis do you assume that I can't read French, Spanish, Latin, Irish and German? That would be dangerous in this case. (I will admit that I need a dictionary on hand to get through Irish and German) In the land where I live, to have a Ph.D. in most humanities disciplines already requires you to learn two other languages. Then there are the ones you need for your own research.

Your inarticulate sputtering thus:

et ..Who to design? Where the middle class ....live in what ...

could be answered: an instrument-maker clearly designed the pipes; there has been a middle class in Ireland for centuries, living in towns such as Dublin, Cork and Limerick (perhaps you've heard of them?), as well as on estates with small holdings. And they live in houses and other such structures.... Not so hard to answer, really. It almost sounds as if you believe Ireland was entirely made up of rural peasants. There were other people there, you know.

Believe it or not, hoss, "you know more than I" is grammatically correct, and "you know more than me" is gramatically wrong. Because the "I" is the subject of the ustated verb "know"; in other words, "you know more than I know" or "you know more than I do."

Of course, in this case apparently, "you know LESS than I" would be more accurate.

"You know more than me," by the way, would mean "you know me and you also know some other things besides me."

As to the rest of your post, it is incoherent rubbish. It's easy to say you don't believe me, but unless you actually present some evidence it won't convince your own dog.

So, Sorefingers, Hoss, just pony up. Where is the evidence? Provide a citation to reputable research that shows bagpipes in Ireland before the thirteenth century.

As for evidence to the contrary, one could start with some of the first descriptions of Irish music by Giraldus Cambrensis, the Welsh cleric who visited Ireland in 1183, 1185, and 1199. He was particularly impressed by Irish harping. He saw no evidence of pipes in Ireland (or in Scotland) at that time, but knew of them from Wales (though it is hard to know from his Latin if he meant bagpipes or more simple, mouth-blown pipes). The bagpipes are never mentioned in the early Irish vernacular literature. There are no pictorial or artistic representations of bagpipes in early Irish carvings or manuscripts. So where is all this evidence, sorefingers? Do I really need to learn my history, or is it you with a shaky grasp on things?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 11:23 PM

The essayist on bagpipes for the Encyclopaedia Britanica attributes the bringing of the bagpipes to the British Isles to the Romans, as I noted earlier. The evidence is there, and the Roman tibia utricularis (bagpipes with bag) is well-documented in writings and in pictures. Nero is shown playing them on a coin, so he is notorious as the first player of this instrument for whom we have a name.
The Britannica article goes on to suggest that the bagpipes perhaps persisted in rural England- they are known from post-Roman times- and were later introduced to the areas of Scotland and Ireland. This could have been a re-introduction, but that doesn't change the fact that the bagpipes were a Roman invention (no earlier evidence of the bag).

The Romans occupied the areas of Spain and Brittany. It is logical to assume that the Romans introduced the bagpipes to this area as well.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 11:44 PM

Tell you what Doc, today I feel kidness would be the best policy.

I mean, what is there to be gained in defending one's old granfolks? or their crafts and culture? Not much, in academia I bet.

Still you could learn one little usefull fact - here - how to spell a usefull word for a Ph D person who claims so much but knows so little.

'uilleann'

Now that you have learned a bit, I have to share what I learned today.

'The more letters after a persons name, the more words they need to use to say nuttin'


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:04 AM

Q you are a library without a license - If the Romans DID introduce the instrument to all those places - VERY DOUBIOUS - then where did the Romans get the bagpipes?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:00 AM

Sorefingers Ol' buddy,

Thanks for your correction. I guess my leaving an "n" off the end of Uilleann means I have no historical knowledge. By the way, do you know how to spell Dubious? How about Actually? Argument? Agenda? Musette? Tres bon? Yield? I'm afraid your misspellings are far more frequent than mine, so you shouldn't be the first to cast that particular stone.

This has obviously descended to a childish level. Here's an adult conversation we might have had:

You: "you know, Nerd, there are some Irish-language references suggesting that bagpipes existed in Ireland as early as the eleventh century, which contradicts your estimate of the thirteenth century."

Me: "Granted, but because we don't know for sure what the various names of musical instruments referred to in that period, we can't be sure. For example, we know that fidli did not refer to violins, since the violin hadn't been invented yet, and the exact form of the eleventh century fiddle remains a mystery. In the same way, pipai may refer to bagpipes or simple pipes like shawms, and scholars therefore aren't entirely convinced by this passage."

You: "I think that pipai must refer to bagpipes, since that is the primary meaning of the word in Irish ever since we can verify it. Anyway, I prefer to give Ireland the benefit of the doubt in these matters, and to believe that the pipes came over from Spain."

Me: "well, I'm kind of a stickler for hard evidence, but I grant you that what you suggest is possible."

And we could both go our merry way. But you have gone out of your way to accuse and belittle me [and others here-- I jumped in partly because of your rude suggestion that Lorcan (InObu)'s posts were nonsense] based on no knowledge of me or my positions on almost any question relevant to this discussion. Hence, we have instead descended to the level of "well, you spelled this wrong!"

Thus, sorefingers, I guess I know why your fingers are so sore. It's from all the rude gestures you're always making at the rest of us...therefore I must borrow a line from my sisters:

Talk to the hand!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:24 AM

Friend sorefingers...these are from your very first post to this thread:

Irish history has a bitter account of the evolution of what we today call the Uillean Pipes.

during the late 1700s early 1800's native instrument makers, Coyne and Egan, were perfecting the 'long bore' chanter which eventually became the modern Uillean Pipes.

most of the musicians as well as the abused piping community soon took to using and Irishgaelic word Uillean.

That's three times in one post you've misspelled the word in exactly the same manner I did. If this resulted in your low opinion of me, you must be filled with self-loathing. But don't worry. The rest of us aren't so judgmental; we know you're still a good guy regardless.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:36 AM

Any evidence of pre-1800 Union pipes by Coyne?
Both Uillean and uilleann are spellings that have been used in the past (1906 first printed record?).


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 02:29 AM

Grattan Flood (1905) insisted on Uilleann, but, as the originator of the myth that that was the original term for the pipes (he stated baldly, without a shred of evidence, that they had been blown with bellows since the 16th century), that was his privilege. It was the correct spelling, but irrelevant in that it had nothing to do with bagpipes.

Flood is rather an embarrassment to serious scholars of Irish music nowadays; he promulgated so much misinformation that they have had to work quite hard to put right the damage he did. Sorefingers' increasingly incoherent contributions to this discussion are sad evidence that there is still a long way to go. Seóirse Bodley, in his introduction to a reprint of Flood's History of Irish Music in 1969, while recognising the man's obvious patriotism, spent many words suggesting to the reader, as tactfully as he could, that there was very little in the book that could be relied upon. Donal O'Sullivan (who wrote an authoritative study of Carolan) referred to Flood in private correspondence with Anne Gilchrist as "that blot on Irish scholarship".


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:22 AM

Sorefingers; your scholarly approach, your profound knowledge of the sources, and above all the intellectual vigour of your arguments leaves me speechless.

PP


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:41 AM

Why has this thread desended into a slanging match? What exactly is being gained by this?

As for the origions of pipes (note that most pipers that I know seldom if ever refer to pipes as bagpipes which might go some way to explain lack of written reference)who knows, perhaps they evolved the same way as farming did - all at once all over the globe - (there is evidence to suggest that farming as a practice started globally within a very short time space). Its a good idea so why should it be assumed the pipes had a liniar development? Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 07:33 AM

Well oil b darned! Look nerdy clones


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 07:53 AM

I can just emagine Paddy Kennan's responce to this thread....
Emagine sitting next to him, reading this as he lifts his pint to his lips... looking straight ahead, a short huff of breath breaks from his chest and blows a wee bit of froth off the top of pint, which then is raised to his lips... end of responce.
I think I can be pretty sure that that would be it...
By the way, come hear me play tonight, there is a post about the Theaters against the war concert a few days back.
Cheers'
Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 08:14 AM

The pity is that since sorefingers is here as a GUEST, it means that the private slanging match with Nerd can't be carried on via PMs.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 08:17 AM

It looks like we have a Troll...

Click on the blue clicky thing for the name sorefingers, read the author's past performance in other threads, and make up your mind whether you are going to waste your time replying to him... about anything...

Getting Joe or some one else to kick him out, would be pointless, as he could get back in under any other pseudonym. It should be noted that person can't be bothered getting a cookie, but has been posting since 22-Feb-03 - 08:48 --- Message_ID=896244

Treating Tantrums in Children:
Best sdvice is to ignore them.
Responding only reinforces negative habits.

I'm Nobody's Fool - I'm Unemployed!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:49 AM

Oh, geez, McGrath, maybe he'll join up just to torment me.

Yes, folks, I must apologize to the list for rising to the bait on this one...


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:29 AM

There seem to be versions of bagpipes from all around the world, but I thought that the main feature that made the uilleann pipes special was the regulators which make it possible to play the drones as well as the chanter. Do any other pipes around the globe have this innovation and exactly when did it evolve - I thought that it was a fairly recent addition. Incidently are bellows-blown bagpipes common outside the British Isles ?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:52 AM

Regulators were also a feature of Pastoral Pipes.
Some central and eastern European Bagpipes have bellows, and the evidence suggests a mainland European origin in the 16th or 17th century.

PP


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:53 AM

Incidently are bellows-blown bagpipes common outside the British Isles ? Yup... France and Ireland. Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:08 PM

smallpiper,

you're generally right that folklorists and historians (and organologists, musicologists, etc) are biased toward a theory of a single origin for an idea followed by spreading of the idea abroad, rather than a whole bunch of origins. This favors and simplifies their methodology of tracing ideas back to their origin. It is one of those instances where, if you aren't careful, your theory can shape your evidence rather than the other way round. But I think in the case of bagpipes in Europe, the evidence also happens to support this theory. The lines of development from a one-droned medieval bagpipe to most modern bagpipes can be followed through pictorial references and surviving examples. So most historians would be comfortable saying that most European bagpipes--including the ones in Britain and in Ireland--were derived from this model. However, before that, as we've seen, things get murky, and certainly the basic idea of adding a bag to a reed-pipe may have occurred more than once.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: ploughflyer
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:27 PM

I have been following this thread with interest despite it wavering from the well informed to the ridiculous.
The origins of the Bagpipe are, of course, obscure however the accepted wisdom is that the origination was during the Hittite civilisation of the Middle East around 2000BC when the musicians of the day got fed up having to interrupt their flute playing to draw breath and some genius decided to add a bag and blowpipe. The bag being made from some type of animal skin or innards.
From there the Romans took up the cause and spread the instrument throughout their conquered lands. There is even historical evidence that Nero played a bagpipe and not a fiddle. This is how the bagpipe came to arrive in England, Scotland, and Ireland and evolved into it's present day highly sophisticated forms.

For further detail on the Uilleann pipes there is the site of Na Piobari Uilleann at www.pipers.ie and a superb Uilleann discussion forum on the message boards of www.chiffandfipple.com where answers to any question will be found.

Cameron


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM

Ploughflyer--you may only have skimmed the thread, which I admit is bloated partly due to my own gullibility, but we have actually discussed the Hittite evidence, the Nero evidence, the question of whether Romans brought the bagpipe throughout their conquered lands, and whether or not the bagpipes'presence in Britain is based on the Roman influence.

Q--I wonder which edition of Britannica you are using. I was looking at the online version, and though they mention the Roman bagpipe in the wind instruments article, they do not metion the figurine found in Britain, or take it as evidence that the bagpipe itself was in Britain at that time. I myself would be cautious about that inference, since Roman Soldiers could be from anywhere and might bring their figurines with them but not their actual bagpipes. In the bagpipe article they talk about this evidence even less.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 03:13 PM

Various sources placed the origin of bagpipes as being in India. I don't know what the basis for that is, but it seems as likely as anywhere. The odd thing is that they don't ever seem to have taken off in the far East - I don't think there is any Chinese version.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 03:25 PM

At the start of this thread I was searching for the evolution of the Uillean pipes, which seem to me to be a modern piece of technology. The general consenus seems to support this suggestion. Much else has been explored, some more rigorously and honestly than other.

People have been using cattle and sheep for sometime (10 thousand years?). Pipes seem a bit old and using bags to blow them pops up all over the place. Lots of origins seem a fair bet. But them Uilleans are high techy things are they not?

I suggest somebody sat down and made one based on prior experience of bellows/bag pipes. Is this correct?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:37 PM

http://www.bagpipehistory.org


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Subject: RE: Bagpipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:46 PM

"Scotland's national instrument, the Bagpipe or in Gaelic "piob-mhor" (the great pipe) is not, contrary to
          popular belief, an instrument which has its origins in and has diffused from Scotland. The bagpipe is an
          instrument of great antiquity, an instrument which has its origins in the Middle East and traveled
          through and evolved in Europe alongside the diffusion of early civilization.

          The "Oxford History of Music" makes mention of the first documented bagpipe being found on a Hittite
          slab at Eyuk. This sculptured bagpipe has been dated to 1,000 B.C. Biblical mention is made of the
          bagpipe in Genesis and in the third Chapter of Daniel"


Copied off of a website - but it is interesting to notice that like the Irish books on the subject state, the bagpipes were long in use and widespread before the 7 hills became Rome. IOW Rome is out, finito
caput a waste of time ....


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 06:54 PM

Thank you, pattyClick, for clearing up a murky pronunciation. Sheila


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 09:03 PM

Congratulations, sorefingers.

Welcome to the human race.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:12 PM

Nerd, my Britannica is old- 1956. Article on p. 926-927 of vol. 2
Could a Roman have brought the bronze statuette of the figure playing the tibia utricularis but left the actual bagpipes at home or traded them for liquor somewhere along the way? Possible.

The article goes on to state "From England the bagpipe spread to Caledonia and Ireland, where it took root..."

I would tend to think that the soldiers and officials, merchants, etc. would have brought a variety of portable musical instruments with them. Some quite upscale villas were built in Roman Britain, and I would guess that they were well equipped with amenities.

The classic 11th edition (1909-1911) of the Britannica has a much more scholarly article. One extract: "The old Irish Bag-pipe, of which we possess an illustration dated 1581 (John Derrick, Image of Ireland and Discoveries of Woodhorne, London, 1581) had a long conical chaunter with a bell and apparently seven holes in front and a thumb-hole behind; there were two drones of different lengths- one very long- both set in the same stock. It is exceedingly difficult to procure any accurate information concerning the development of the bag-pipe in Ireland until it assumed the present form known as the union-pipes."

History: "The most characteristic feature of the bag-pipe is not the obvious bag ... but the fixed harmony of the buzzing drones. The principle of the drone, i. e. the beating-reed sunk some three inches down the pipe, was known to the ancient Egyptians." (Discussion of a tomb discovery, the reed in place).
"Among the names of musical instruments [biblical citations] generally but wrongly rendered as "dulcimer" ...is thought by many scholars to signify a kind of bag-pipe..."
"Bag-pipe known in Italy and Spain during the Middle Ages..."
The statement about the Roman figurine of a soldier playing the tibia utricularis, found at Richborough, is also made here (Archaeologia, v. XVII, London, 1814).
Bag-pipes used at Coventry in 1534. Thirteenth century bag-pipes from Spain are illustrated in the Cantigas de Santa Maria- one has four long drones and two chaunters. Many more interesting comments.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:58 PM

Scholarly thinking on the subject seems not to have changed a great deal since then, though it has become more rigorous; occasional references to bagpipes in the Roman armies are no longer taken to "prove" that the pipes were introduced to Britain by the Romans. The evidence of one single bronze is no more significant in that respect than is the fact that the Romans brought a few elephants over here at one point. There is no evidence of a resultant elephant population in Britain, and, equally, there is no evidence of a local bagpipe playing tradition earlier than about the 13th century, when, in the wake of the crusades, they began to appear all over Northern Europe. So far as can be told from the historical record, the pipes were taken up in England rather earlier than in Scotland; dates for Ireland are more vague, but they appear to have arrived there during the same period. There is no particular reason to imagine that bagpipes were introduced to Scotland from Ireland; France or England are more likely immediate sources, but at all events the likely timescale isn't all that great; a hundred years at most, probably less.

This really is a purely historical issue, and considerations of (anybody's) national pride have no place in it. I'm glad to see that the discussion is settling down to a sensible approach; credit to Sorefingers for joining in with the spirit of it.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:27 AM

Larry - I always thought that Ireland was part of the British Isles. Still the consensus seems to be that the use of bellows is a European development.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 06:30 AM

It always amazes me that the 3 piece construction of the Spanish Giata Bass Drone is almost identical to the construction of 18th Highland Bagpipe Bass Drone.Gaita
18th Cent GHB
This is not the only similarity; the fingering of the Half Closed style of playing Gaita is again almost identical.
Fingerings
To me this would imply that there was a pan western European style of Bagpipe from which regional varieties evolved, supporting the medieval origin of the instrument.
Another possibility I suppose is that Spanish survivors of the Armada washed up on the coast of the western isles brought this design and fingering with them, but I've seen no evidence other than my own Imagination to back this up.

PP


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:44 AM

Larry - I always thought that Ireland was part of the British Isles. Still the consensus seems to be that the use of bellows is a European development.

OH MY DAVE! There has been a lot said on this topic (Ireland as part of the British Isles), here, let's just say that there is not consensus on this!!!! [Of course it depends how you define British... and a host of other events and terms...] Cheers Larry

PS As an Uilleann piper myself... I have to say that folks take some things a wee tad too serriously and that - even though it is a challenging instrument... it is easier than discussing the diddly dees of its history...

BS... but that is what makes this place so much fun...

CS... see ye's later...


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 08:29 AM

Is there nothing in the oral traditions of Ireland and Scotland that refers to the origions of the pipes? (apart from the fact that they arrived in the west of Ireland in boats out of the sky along with the Fir Bolg or was it the Tuatha DeDannan - I can never remember).


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 12:55 PM

I am fascinated by proto-history and the subsequent spread of farming across Eurasia. I guess pipes and bags have travelled back and forth many times.

Proto, early and even 16C & 17C history may not reveal how somebody sat down and made a set of Uillean pipes for the first time. But the history of the 19C might.

The craftspeople who made the first pipes clearly based them on other pipes. Which ones and when?

I am sorry if this was actually answered in the second post.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 02:32 PM

Q, thanks for the references to the encyclopedia. It's interesting to see how thinking has changed a bit over the years.

Smallpiper, I know the pseudo-histories pretty well, and I can't remember much on the origin of the bagpipes. The problem with that material, (written down since the 6th century from presumably oral sources, with most manuscripts coming from after the 10th century) is that frequently older stories, probably from continental or British Celts, are put into an Irish context. So chariot warfare, which is the basis of the warrior society in the Ulster Cycle, seems never to have actually existed in Ireland (by which I mean, no war-chariots have turned up in excavations there, and no ancient sources mention it as a characteristic of Irish life). What probably happened was that stories about chariot-warriors on the continent or in Britain were carried to Ireland and formed the basis of the cycle. But the cycle is clearly located in Ireland.

This is essentially the problem with the oral tradition from the standpoint of origins. Many stories dealing with the origins of cultural phenomena take the form of what we call "migratory legends," which means not only do the stories travel around, but they are then localized to wherever the teller comes from. So we would absolutely excpect the Irish oral tradition to recount an Irish origin, while the Spanish oral tradition would recount a Spanish one. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, of course. The Irish oral tradition does have some remarkable flashes of accuracy over hundreds of years (like the Spanish origin of the Milesian Celts, which is generally thought to be plausible), but also has some remarkable and obvious innacuracies like the one I mentioned above.

Having said that, there is also a huge amount of orally-collected folklore in Ireland that has never been transcribed or published, and you never know what great wisdom may someday be revealed! I firmly believe that the origins of

McGrath, because the Indo-European people seem to have emerged from India, anything that is widespread among IE peoples will at one time be ascribed an Indian origin, especially if there are Indian examples. But it's really pure conjecture, because as everyone here agrees (even Sorefingers and I!), the origin really was quite ancient.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM

Whilst hoping to keep this thread near 19C pipes.......

Didn't Indo-Europeans originate further north up east of the Black Sea? Colin Renfrew has a good book on it. Agriculture then spread from this area, sometimes with migration and sometimes by the spread of good ideas with trade......... north into Europe, south to India and lots of other places near by?

but I am mugging my own thread again.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM

Les,

You are probably right. My own area of specialization is considerably later. It certainly was assumed for years that the Indo-Europeans emerged from India, simply because Sanskrit was the earliest known IE language for many years. That assumption in turn led to the assumption that many common IE cultural traits originated in India too. But later research may well have shown the premise to be as difficult to maintain as the conclusion.

One of the problems here is "how do we decide that someone is Indo-European?" If we do not have linguistic records, it's a tough case to make. This is the same problem we encounter later, in the time period I am most familiar with, in deciding that people are "Celtic" (as opposed to, say, Lepontic or Iberian).

By the way, my unfinished sentence from the post above should be:

I firmly believe that the origins of many literary ideas ascribed to others, including some English people, will someday be found in unpublished Irish folklore collections.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 03:23 PM

Indo-European refers to a broad smear of languages and peoples- Middle-eastern, Persian, other parts of central Asia as well as India and later, Europe. Because of proximity and relationships in trade as well as language similarities, developments in one part of the area could spread to another- hence something developed in Persia would show up in the Indian subcontinent and work its way west as well. Later, something from Moorish Spain could work its way north and west.
Because of the emphasis on Caesar, Marco Polo and others who publicized or politicized their trips, we have the idea of insular, settled peoples who normally did not have contact with those in other areas. Not true. Migration and trade affected all peoples.

Even in North America, trade was long ranging before the Europeans; turquoise from New Mexico went to the Valley of Mexico, feathers from Mexican birds were used in the American west, shells from the Gulf of California were peddled all over western North America, obsidian and other goods from Oregon traveled with trader Indians to Texas, etc.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM

Q: exactly so. Trade goods from China appear in Hallstatt Celtic graves. This is why, in the absence of linguistic evidence, it's hard to tell who is "Indo-European." Material objects, technologies of production, and cultural practices (like burial and cremation and sacrifice) can be communicated across groups. So one group's physical remains may look much like another's even if their language is different.

This is one of those problems that affects people's thinking about bagpipes (to subtly wrench this back in the general direction of relevance!) Because people associate the bagpipes with the Celtic world, they assume that people who have bagpipes must be Celtic, even though as we have seen, piping is a generalized European phenomenon. This has helped fueled Galicia's claim (or I should say "certain Galicians' claim") to be a Celtic country, despite the fact that there has been no Celtic language spoken there for ages.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 04:59 PM

The term "British" in the expression "British Isles" should always be understood as having a purely geographic meaning rather than having any political implications, refering to the largest island in the group, and using it as a label to cover all the islands in the Archipelago, incuding Ireland and the Isle of Man. (But not the Channel Isles. I'm not sure about the Orkneys or Shetlands, but I suspect they shouldn't be counted in, any more than the Faeroes.)

The use of the term "Britain" as if it was a country, rather than an island is really just journalese. There ain't no such country, properly speaking.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:22 PM

"The craftspeople who made the first pipes clearly based them on other pipes. Which ones and where"

I waited for that one. Thanks Les.

If a University would give me a degree today to bleather endlessly about this topic, I would decline it, since all I want to do is share what I already know.

In this case, Les, the 'first' pipes were not pipes at all, but something far more common and similar, the lowly snake charmer.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:39 PM

A snake charmer was the first pipe?
Seriously, 'pipe' is too generalized since now you are looking at the ancestor of all the woodwinds, brass, panpipes and digeridoos of the world.
Of all the stuff above, I agree with the essayist in the Britannica who pointed out the importance of the discovery of a pipe with the beating reed well down in the pipe. This was found in an Egyptian tomb, so we have a "not later than" date for an important step. The bag in Roman times is another "not later than" discovery.

(Hmmm, I have been reading too many posts by Ian on narrowing down time of origin of songs).


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Briton
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:49 PM

British Isles is a group of islands, and is a geographical description. Great Britain is the biggest island, hence great=big - get it?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:50 PM

Thi is some thread creep


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 06:48 PM

See what you done, InOBU?

Certainly fascinating, all this history, anthropology, musicology, etc. I'm doing my best to absorb it, and congratulate Sorefingers for the way he's teased it out of you knowledgeable foiks.

Maybe someone could just pause to give me a word of advice, since I struggle along with no guidance within many miles. I've hit on playing low E leaving right little-finger down, and changer off the knee. This gives a note comparable in strength with D below and Fsharp above. The book (Armagh Pipers) says chanter down, both bottom holes uncovered, but this gives a noticeably weak note. My new way is a pain to get used to, so can someone tell me whether there's a downside (like it wouldn't work on any other chanter) before I get to the point of no return?


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 06:53 PM

Actually, Guest Briton, that's not quite right.

"Britain" seems to have been an ethnicity before it was a Geographical description, though it originally seems to have referred to Picts, not the people later called Britons. Early indications are that they were called cruithini in old Irish and Pretani in old Brythonic, suggesting their name existed prior to the differentiation of the Celtic languages, and originally included the PRTN cluster found in the word Britain. The B, of course, is the voiced form of P, and the C replaced the P in the Gaelic languages, so they were BRTNs or PRTNs in P-Celtic and CRTNs in q-Celtic (Goidelic/Gaelic). It seems the name [Pretan=Breton or Briton] transferred from the Picts to the island where they lived, then from the island to the Britons who lived there later.

The "Great" in Great Britain is not to distinguish it from the smaller islands of the archipelago, but to distinguish the island of Britain from Brittany, which was originally a colony of British Celts. In French, the politically dominant language of both England and France after the Norman Conquest, "Bretagne" referred to both the island and the colony, hence "Grande Bretagne" for the island to avoid confusion.

I know, thread creep! Sorry!

Back to bagpipes. I think what sorefingers means (if I may) is that the earlier pipe on which a bagpipe is based is a reed-pipe similar to the ones played by snake charmers, and in that he is quite right, as Q notes.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:00 PM

Oldest musical pipe they've found was in a Neanderthal camp in present day Slovenia, at least 43000 years old, maybe twice that.

Mind, there's no evidence that it's a bagpipe chanter - but for all we know it could have been...


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:03 PM

That is so cool, McGrath!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:09 PM

Fionn - I'm not sure what you mean but I understand there are several different ways of playing the Irish pipes. The way most people do - stopping the chanter on the leg and open ended, that is without stopping the chanter at all perhaps the set you have favours the latter of the two methods (I said several because I've heard that there are more ways of fingering the damm thing than there are ways of skinning a .... oops)


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 05:26 AM

Here is more evidence supporting a medieval pan European origin of modern "Celtic" bagpipes.
The Chanters of Gaitas and GHB have 2 holes below the last fingered holes, one each side of the chanter at 90 degrees to the finger holes.
One of these holes is clearly visible in this Bruegel painting with Flemish Pipes.
Another medieval wind instrument characteristic; haveing 2 bottom finger holes (one on each side) to alow right or lefthanded playing (the one not used being blocked with wax or some such material) is present on the Gaita Chanter.

PP


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 06:38 AM

The inhabitants of Britain and Ireland, just like anywhere else, were sensible and ingenious folk. On occasion they would come up with a good invention, which would then spread elsewhere.. More commonly they would see some new idea brought in by a neighbour/visitor. If useful, it would be taken up, used, maybe improved on to be more suitable for local conditions. A simple and obvious process, morally value-free.
    I don't think we need to drag in notions "of Celtic" "Gaelic" "English" etc etc to illuminate(or inflame) discussions of the possible origins and use of some rather clever and beautiful ideas in instrument construction.Galicia's Celticness(or not) are serious red-herringsas, as is all the other nonsense. Quite what is meant to be "Celtic" about Galicia, as opposed to say Denmark or Belgium (both historically riddled with "Celtishness") is beyond me. I like the original subject of the thread much better@ who invented those clever little brass mechanisms etc etc. They do deserve recognition, if we could only find out who they were. Whether they were "Celtic" or not....yawn, yawn, yawn...


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 01:54 PM

I love it all.

But for the time being I would like to stay near the 19C. When I asked about from what did the Uillean pipes evolve, I should have made it clear that I was looking for its mum and dad in 19 C Ireland or, as has been suggested, the USA. It has many, many distant relations, as do we all.

1 mother, 2 grandmothers, 4 greatgms, 8 Greatgreatgms, 16, 32 64......
Sorry I have jumped my own thread and will no doubt pay for it!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 06:55 PM

It turns out sorefingers did not suddenly become more civil; he simply transferred his veiled personal attacks against me to a BS thread called "BS: Is Academic authority a lie?" I thought I'd let the thread contributors here know, just in case his posts here amused you...it's certainly a fun read down there in the BS!

As to Les's clarification of his needs, I think the best answer is the one Pied Piper suggested at 03 Sep 03 - 08:06 AM. That is what the best evidence supports.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 07:25 PM

Well, Nerd

1) At least now he's having his childish tantrums in a different room, and we can't hear the noise from here...

2) I don't totally disagree with his basic premise. I'm not sure that my contributions there (or those of [greg stephens - above] and like minded people) would assist him at all though...

SOME "Academic authority" IS nonsense enough to be humourous - "Nothing heavier than air can fly"... etc. These ideas, based on poor science, may die, but can disrupt proper thought for a long time if we are unlucky.

You may note that above I made some comments about the "they couldn't do that in those days" line of "Technical Expertise - Academia" - and I notice nobody wanted to keep that line alive.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:04 PM

Yes, foolstroupe, and I did get what you were saying. Another fine example was people noticing that the Pyramids seem to have a side length that is a fairly exact multiple of pi in ancient Egyptian cubits. "Impossible that they could have built this!" some foolish people said, "it must have been aliens."

Until someone figured out that they must have used a measuring wheel on the end of a stick. The wheel would have a radius of one cubit (or a half cubit, or any multiple of a half cubit [call it 1/2 x cubits]) and they would measure the sides by pacing off the distance and counting the revolutions of the wheel. If you measure out a whole number of revolutions, you get a distance of pi times x times the number of revolutions, or an exact multiple of pi, without even knowing or caring about pi.

And what has this to do with bagpipes? Well, remember that pipe with a beating reed well down inside, found in an Egyptian tomb?

Well, erm...no, actually, it really is irrelevant, sorry!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:13 PM

No, we never really answered the question posed by Les. Somewhere in the 1700-early 1800s period there should be a better answer. So far, the only answers are anecdotal-speculative.

Lots of other interesting information came up, however.

Thanks to Pied Piper for reminding me of the Bruegel piper. I used to have a copy on my wall at school. Amazing the people who commented on his headgear- everything from an early aviator's helmet, early football (American) helmet to earmuffs. Somewhere I saw a picture of a 14th c. Catalan bagpipe- have to try to find it.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:34 PM

"I should
have made it clear that I was looking for its mum and dad in 19 C Ireland"

Not really 19th century more like early 1700s, has no Regulators and two Drones, but is bellows inflated and usualy in C or Bb.

Best I could find.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 04:31 AM

I thought that Pied Piper had identified the grandparents in the guise of the pastoral pipes - seems prety convincing to me.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 05:02 AM

The original query that started this thread, the possible linkage of the uillean pipes to the industrial revolution is very intriguing. I would guess the connectionof musical instrument technology to industrial machines is very close, and for a guess it is the musical stuff that probably came first in a lot of cases. The intricate metal work and ingenuity of the mechanical linkages in keyboards and woodwind instruments, and the whoe technology of controlling gas flow in bagpies etc would link very closely with the whole business of spinning jennies, blast furnaces and steam engines of the 1700's.
    Cromford was a working musician before he made his spinning technolgy innovations, but the man who most beautifully personifies these links is the of course the very very famous James Watt, developer of the team engine which powered the whole revolution. And what was he up to before inventing the steam engine? Working in Glasgow as a maker/repairer of flutes and bagpipes, in the mid 1700's! And incredibly luckily, his workshop tools and other paraphernalia still exist, so we know a great deal about what he made and how he made them. The intircate musical technolgy with which he was familiar was just the stuff he needed when working on the complexities of steam flow, valves etc.
    Here's an amusing bit of thread drift: among James Watt's effects (still in existence) were a hand-made metal stamp(for stamping wood) saying T Lot. Now Thomas Lot was a very famous and respected flute maker of that era. Thomas Watt was just a common or garden flutemaker. Now why did he own a stamp saying T Lot? Was the wily little bloke churning out counterfet Thomas Lot flutes?? Intriguing,huh?
    Anyway, my general point is that in the industrial revolution era the inventor types would be surrounded by the rapidly developing musical developments of the day, and the cross-fertilisation of techniques must have been considerable.
    Whether Newcomen(slightly earlier,working c 1700 on the earliest steam engines) had any musical connections I have no idea, but he would certainly have been surrounded by woodwind(and specifically bagpipe) technolgy, as would anyone in Scotland or England at that date.And this technolgy was not only extremely clever, but also in a state of continuous innovatory change. What I have no knowledge of, and I hopesomeone else could supply this information, is what was going on in the way of engineering/weaving technology in the Belfast linen industry in that era, that may be relevant to this discussion.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 05:29 AM

Perhaps yer man was trying to invent the powered bagpipe and accidently discovered the steem engine in the process! Now there's a thort!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 06:03 AM

Certainly a developer, but not quite the inventor, Greg. Watt's contribution to progress was the separate condenser. By cooling the used steam outside the main cylinder he quadrupled power output. He also developed a rotary engine so that power output could be harnessed to drive (for instance) linear motion as well as to pump out coal mines.

If you're ever in the north Greg (I recall you were in Cork recently), the story of Belfast linen is encapsulated in a splendid museum at Lisburn, about ten miles along the A1 from Belfast. Well worth a visit. I don't remember seeing anything that might remotely have been applied to uilleann pipes manufacture, but I will be honest and say that such potential connections were far from my mind at the time. I have read a fair amount of Belfast history and spent many an hour in the city's magnificent treasure, the Linenhall Library, but I've never seen any suggestion that Belfast had any significant role in the development of uilleann pipes.

Where there certainly is a direct connection between a local traditional industry and the pipes is in Sheffield, the home of steel, precision engineering and cutlery. There is a pipemaker there, Brian Howard, who learnt his engineering skills with local tool-makers and who makes full use of many workshops around him that have lingered on.

I know, and he is the first to admit, that his reputation is not great with some of the Milltown Malbay afficionados. He can certaily put backs up, but part of the problem is the conservatism that objects when people put 12 volt electrics on Vincent motorbikes so so they can see where they're going. It can't be denied that some of the innovative Howard "patches and upgrades" for the pipes, derived directly from engineering-shop principles, actually do work, and render the things more dependable.

Article about Brian Howard's uilleann pipes and local engineering influences.

If anyone's interested and happens to be round my way, Papplewick pumping station, about five miles north of Nottingham, boasts two James Watt beam engines - almost certainly the last two to be built - which are under steam most weekends. These would be a bit bigger than the uillean pipes on which Watt cut his teeth.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 07:54 AM

I don't have any letters after me name but I did finally get the name of Uillean's parents - thanks to Kirk Lynch Pipemaker Kansas City - 'cuislean(not sure about the spelling) pipes' - and made in Ireland where, and here is a little bit of history, Gaelic was still spoken by most people.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 08:08 AM

Fionn,thanks for that additional info. My mention of Belfast might be a red herring, but I thought that we might be stereotyping the "lowland Scots ingenuity" idea by nececssarily trying to locate bagpipe developments there. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a few ingenious types around the Belfast linen trade as well. Not to mention Newcomen in Cornwall. Cromford in Derbyshire etc etc.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: AKS
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 08:28 AM

Steam powered bagpipe - that would be spectacular, wouldn't it: Steam puffing out the drones and from under the fingers and whirling around the piper like morning mist upon hay rucks in the new mown meadows, while lingering echoes of pibroch fill the atmosphere like a howling hurricane ...

AKS


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM

I can't remember wherre it was, but I once saw soemone playing a set of bagpipes with a small electric motor instead of a bellows.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 09:02 AM

"Oldest musical pipe they've found was in a Neanderthal camp in present day Slovenia, at least 43000 years old, maybe twice that.

Mind, there's no evidence that it's a bagpipe chanter - but for all we know it could have been... "

Dear dear Brother McGrath... anyone who has struggled to make a reed would doupt that mousterian culture could produce a read when they could not yet make a bivalve stone blade! A flute is another matter. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 09:10 AM

Hey Larry have you ever stretched a piece of grass between your thumbs and the heal of your hands and blown accross it? That's a very primitve reed isn't it, so why couldn't early cultures have sussed that one out as well. Its a short step from there to cane.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 10:18 AM

Sorefingers, Bflat, D and C are the fairly standard keys for Uilleann pipes. I've only ever heard blades of grass played in F, but I suppose atmospheric conditions, central-heating etc come into it.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 01:54 PM

Fionn you've just hit on the origions of Northumbrian pipes!


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 12:09 AM

The Duquesne University Tamburitzans, who perform Eastern European folk dances and songs, occasionally play the Polish bagpipe. As I remember, the pipe, chanter and drones were made of brass, while the large, square bag was covered with velvet. (It looked like a cross between a sopha cushion and a plumbing fixture.)
If the Tammies come your way, be sure to go and see them. They're amazing. I suspect If you got in touch with one of their directors, they'd be glad to tell you about any and all eastern European bagpipes.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 02:05 AM

There WAS a famous Gum-leaf player in Australia many years ago. I'm not sure if he was Aboriginal, but the instrument is uncommon, but known of, and still perfomed around the traps. It apparently just as fiddly as the one we erre supposed to be discussing here... :-)

Bob Bolton or some other Aussies surely know more than me about it, - may have even been in other threads - if not - then perhaps it should?

:-)

Robin


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 12:42 PM

Greg Stevens, you have identifies a link that I was hunting for:

'Cromford was a working musician before he made his spinning technolgy innovations, but the man who most beautifully personifies these links is the of course the very very famous James Watt, developer of the team engine which powered the whole revolution. And what was he up to before inventing the steam engine? Working in Glasgow as a maker/repairer of flutes and bagpipes, in the mid 1700's!'

I can't tell you how enlightened I feel. I haven't felt so elated since I first read The Ascent of Man by the Great Jacob.


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Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,BillH
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM

Consensus among union/uilleann pipe historians has shifted to accepting the Pastoral pipes as the predecessor/ancestor of the Union pipes. The latter was known as the "Union" or "Irish" bagpipes in printed works from around 1800. Since there were native Irish speakers writing about music in the 19th century, the absence of any plausible spelling of "uilleann" in reference to these pipes argues rather strongly against uilleann having been an alternate name in any wide circulation. Flood had his reasons for making up the name, and many people got the notion that the moniker "Union" pipes somehow referred to the notorious Act of Union - wrong, the term Union Pipes appears in print in the 1790's at least, well before the 1800 Act.

The Pastorals, the likely predecessor, were referred to as the "New Bagpipe" in contemporary publications. This suggests that they were innovative, even before the addition of regulators. There has never appeared any evidence for a bagpipe which was the "predecessor" for the Pastoral/New bagpipes to any meaningful extent (i.e. which is substantially similar). In any case they were NOT a "Folk" instrument when introduced, as they were quite expensive and marketed to wealthy gentlemen. (I know, I can hear the screams of protest, but this is the evidence tells.) Pastorals have a "foot joint" that attaches to the end of a chanter, rather like the bell of some orchestral instruments, and they are played "off the knee". Pastorals give one note below the tonic as their lowest tone, but are basically diatonic with a few notes in the upper octave.

It can be very difficult to tell an early Union set from a Pastoral set which has lost its "foot joint"; this both strengthens the case for one being an evolutionary adaptation of the other, and confounds the business of establishing when the Union pipes first appeared. The regulator was a feature of some Pastoral sets which seem to date from about 1770 or 1780, so the regulator does not appear to have been something that originated in the "Irish" form.

Earliest examples are actually often rather sharper than has been suggested here - 1770's would have had the pitch at about modern Eflat, but true enough by the first quarter of the 1800s C# would have been common, followed, or perhaps contemporary with sets pitched about modern B.

By about 1840 sets with 3 regulators had appeared, pitched in about modern B, and these may have been the sets referred to at the time as the "Grand Union Pipes".

In the late 19th century the Taylor brothers, originally from Drogheda but later of Philadelphia, do seem to have developed the first known "wide-bore" sets pitched near modern D, possibly in an attempt to fill the louder music halls of America. The idea caught on and similar wide-bore sets were made in the early 20th c. in Ireland.

Bill


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 02:31 PM

Nicely done, Bill.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:23 AM

My (American) neighbour derives the name from the Illinois pipes. And it's thought that Part of the Union was written by Lou Reed.

What's the evolution like compared with Northumbrian and Scottish Lowland pipes, or the Auvergnais cabrette? More to the point, my understanding was that pastoral pipes had a cylindrical bore, like the Northumbrian and Lowland pipes, whereas the conical bore of the Irish pipes gives access to a second octave, so was the Union pipe a hybrid, and if so what was its conical forebear?


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 07:09 AM

Does the Musette have a conical bore? It has always been thought that the Musette (French pipe) was what the UP's were influenced by.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 04:35 AM

http://www.aniar.net/pipes.html

http://www.aniar.net/pipes.html

Sorry failed blue clicky thing test but this sites, from post 2 above, seems clear to me. Is this clarrity a mistake?


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 04:53 AM

How's this then?

"The modern full set of pipes comprises bag, bellows and chanter, drones and regulators. The tenor or small regulator was added to the set in the last quarter of the 18th century. It was spoken of as a recent addition, not yet in general use, in 1790 and it was the only one referred to by O'Farrell in his tutor for this instrument which was published about 1800. The middle and bass regulators were added in the first quarter of the 19th century.

These pipes are now most commonly known as Uilleann pipes (pronounced ill-yin, from Irish uille, elbow). This name was first applied to the instrument as last as the beginning of the 20th century when it was foisted on the public in 1903 by Grattan Flood who then proceeded to equate it with the 'woollen' pipes of Shakespeare, thus providing for the instrument a spurious origin in the 16th century."


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 05:52 AM

It's clear that the regulators couldn't have developed before reliable keys, and that these were kept to a minimum because of unreliable seating and leakage up to the end of the 18th century. Few flutes had more than 3 keys up to the start of the 19th cenury, and only the clarinet, where they were indispensible to bridge the gap between the registers, used many more. So the UP with regulators must date from this period, and the developments with musette, pastoral pipes, and the Northumbrian pipes fits in with this.

The unique characteristic of the UP though is not the regulators, spectacular though they may be, but the combination of conical bore and stopping on the knee (the bellows follows from that), leading to full 2 octave range and the possibility of staccato without it being obligatory.

The Northumbrian pipes achieved staccato by using a permanently- closed end, and the cylindrical bore meant that the range could only be extended by means of additional keys, and it's probably this fact that has led to the characteristic closed (pop-pop) sound of these pipes.

Generally, other pipes can not be stopped without reducing pressure so much as to affect the drones, so playing is necessarily legato, and the range is usually limited to an octave plus a leading note, and for cylindrical bores, about two or three notes above the octave.


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:19 PM

I received today, from Na Piobairi Uilleann, the DVD entitled "The Heart of the Instrument". It is a tutorial on reedbuilding and it has tutorials by Cillian O'Briain, Andreas Rogge, Benedict Koehler, and Geoff Wooff. I sat down and watched the first one, which had Cillian building a reed. What a wonderful tutorial that was, and if the rest follow suit, this is a wonderful bit of knowledge that would classify as a must have for any person who is playing the Uilleann pipes.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:53 AM

Thanks Mick, sounds like a real find and it's nice to se one of my children come home to visit after such a long time away!

Cheers

Les


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:56 AM

Back to Les's original question - there is a vast anthology of random clippings related to bagpipes in the National Library of Scotland which points to a specific inventor of the modern uilleann pipe (with regulators). He was a pipemaker in Newcastle in the late 18th century, and made enough of them to get a reliable product. And presumably made enough impact with them to get his idea taken up by makers in Ireland.

The NLS stuff only documents the production and sale of the instruments - looking in archives around Newcastle it might be possible to find some reference to what players did with them.

At any rate, this locates the development of the instrument right in the heartland of the Industrial Revolution, as Les guessed. (Isolated achievements of ancient precision engineering are irrelevant - they were custom jobs for such prestigious applications that there might be only one to an empire; bagpipes are a product). You need the infrastructure of good lathes, precision measuring instruments, reliable stockholders of seasoned exotic timber, people like clockmakers who can make custom parts of steel and brass. Dublin and Belfast weren't quite in the same league, but close enough to adopt the new technology.


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:05 AM

I heard some pipes the other day, they sounded like someone was playing a Game Boy!


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM

Don't let that stop from searching for some seriously exciting music - stands back and awaits lists!


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:13 AM

Try the new CD by Ross Ainslie and Jarlath Henderson.


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Subject: RE: Uilleann Pipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:07 AM

Chietains, Finbar Furry, Dave erm, Liam Og O'Flynn


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