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BS: Witches! Good and Bad?

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harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 01:23 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 01:26 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 01:35 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Jul 03 - 01:36 PM
Bill D 25 Jul 03 - 01:47 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Jul 03 - 02:00 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 02:08 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 02:13 PM
artbrooks 25 Jul 03 - 02:25 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 02:36 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 02:39 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 02:43 PM
artbrooks 25 Jul 03 - 02:46 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,MMario 25 Jul 03 - 02:54 PM
artbrooks 25 Jul 03 - 03:14 PM
Dead Horse 25 Jul 03 - 03:14 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 03:18 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 03:28 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 03:41 PM
artbrooks 25 Jul 03 - 03:44 PM
mack/misophist 25 Jul 03 - 03:58 PM
katlaughing 25 Jul 03 - 04:08 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Jul 03 - 04:11 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 04:16 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 04:19 PM
akenaton 25 Jul 03 - 05:43 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 05:53 PM
hesperis 25 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,which ol' witch 25 Jul 03 - 06:31 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 11:34 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 11:51 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 11:58 PM
Sorcha 26 Jul 03 - 12:03 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM
Sorcha 26 Jul 03 - 12:31 AM
Fred Miller 26 Jul 03 - 12:38 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 03 - 01:02 AM
Dead Horse 26 Jul 03 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Jul 03 - 03:30 AM
Ebbie 26 Jul 03 - 04:11 AM
Catherine Jayne 26 Jul 03 - 04:18 AM
Bert 26 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM
CapriUni 26 Jul 03 - 09:23 AM
Amos 26 Jul 03 - 12:12 PM
Catherine Jayne 26 Jul 03 - 01:32 PM
Amos 26 Jul 03 - 01:44 PM
katlaughing 26 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Jul 03 - 11:17 PM
CapriUni 27 Jul 03 - 12:01 AM
Bert 27 Jul 03 - 02:03 AM
Bert 27 Jul 03 - 02:06 AM
JennyO 27 Jul 03 - 03:47 AM
CapriUni 27 Jul 03 - 09:13 AM
katlaughing 27 Jul 03 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 28 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM
Sorcha 28 Jul 03 - 12:12 AM
CapriUni 28 Jul 03 - 12:25 AM
Amergin 28 Jul 03 - 12:28 AM
Amergin 28 Jul 03 - 12:32 AM
Hrothgar 28 Jul 03 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Bryn 28 Jul 03 - 07:08 AM
Alba 28 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM
harpgirl 28 Jul 03 - 08:16 AM
Green Man 28 Jul 03 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Mathew Hopkins 28 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Mathew Hopkins 28 Jul 03 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,bryn 29 Jul 03 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Green Man 29 Jul 03 - 05:50 AM
Micca 29 Jul 03 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Mathew Hopkins 29 Jul 03 - 08:00 AM
Amos 29 Jul 03 - 03:24 PM
Micca 29 Jul 03 - 03:31 PM
Micca 29 Jul 03 - 03:36 PM
Amos 29 Jul 03 - 03:47 PM
Catherine Jayne 29 Jul 03 - 04:45 PM
LadyJean 30 Jul 03 - 01:05 AM
GUEST,Gereg 30 Jul 03 - 04:28 PM
hesperis 30 Jul 03 - 05:04 PM
Bert 30 Jul 03 - 05:24 PM
artbrooks 30 Jul 03 - 05:49 PM
Pied Piper 31 Jul 03 - 05:59 AM
Micca 31 Jul 03 - 08:59 AM
katlaughing 31 Jul 03 - 10:29 AM
Amos 31 Jul 03 - 10:44 AM
harpgirl 31 Jul 03 - 12:23 PM
harpgirl 31 Jul 03 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Bryn 01 Aug 03 - 04:46 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 03 - 11:10 AM
Nemesis 01 Aug 03 - 02:01 PM
Amergin 01 Aug 03 - 02:46 PM
Ebbie 01 Aug 03 - 02:54 PM
Dipsodeb 02 Aug 03 - 06:00 AM
Nemesis 10 Aug 03 - 07:05 PM
Peg 10 Aug 03 - 11:37 PM
GUEST,Mystie012 12 Oct 09 - 07:11 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Oct 09 - 07:14 PM
kendall 12 Oct 09 - 07:44 PM
number 6 12 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM
Janie 12 Oct 09 - 10:47 PM
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Peace 12 Oct 09 - 11:26 PM
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Gervase 13 Oct 09 - 04:33 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Oct 09 - 05:04 AM
olddude 13 Oct 09 - 07:52 AM
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Diva 13 Oct 09 - 03:56 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Oct 09 - 04:02 PM
Micca 13 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Captain Pugwash 13 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM
Hollowfox 13 Oct 09 - 08:08 PM
VirginiaTam 14 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM
kendall 14 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM
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Subject: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:23 PM

I posed a question on the music thread about witches which is better dealt with here so I am posing it. If you believe in witches, do you also believe that some are good and some are bad? How do you distinguish?

I stated my opinion about witches on the other thread and naturally several of our members insulted me instead of saying anything kind, reasonable or enlightening to me, but I'm giving them another chance. What is a good witch? what is a bad witch? How would you know if someone sad they were a good or bad witch? hg


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:26 PM

if I understand it correctly - the prime tenet of Wicca is "Do no Harm" - if one adheres to that (and are talking Wiccan witches)- then "good" witch.

Does deliberate harm? "bad" witch. or at least human.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:35 PM

Now - based on what I have read - Cotton Mather was a devil's tool - (If there is a devil) - but evil. evil. very evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:36 PM

The good witches dress in white, look pretty, and have a munchkin fetish... the bad witches dress in black, have green skin, and melt in water...

Sheesh...

What's next?

Angles??

Little green men from mars?

Loch Ness Monster? Unicorns??

Some other element of fantasy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:47 PM

why, I saw a 45° angle just yesterday!

The mind is a funny thing...like the Red Queen said, she can believe in several impossible things before breakfast.

Witchcraft seems to me like a complex fantasy game some people play, but, like other such concepts, (ghosts, elves, fairies, angels and BigFoots) they achieve a certain 'reality' in some folks lives. I dunno what to say when something I don't 'feel' or see is taken seriously by others. Best to just duck..*grin*


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:00 PM

Nope... I've never seen an angle... So I don't believe they exist!

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:08 PM

I just thought that with all the talk about witches around here, some of these witches and witch sympathsizers would have something reasonably enlightening to say about the differences.

"Does deliberate harm" by that definition both Ted Kazcinsky and George Bush qualify as deliberately harmful humans. So are they no different than "bad witches"? After all, Ted chose to kill people for his beliefs and guess what? So did George!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:13 PM

when you get down to brass tacks -

yup.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:25 PM

Sounds a lot like the perennial bashing of "liberals", without a common agreement on what a "liberal" is.

Harpgirl, what, precisely, do you mean by the word "witch?" Reading the comments made in the other thread, it seems reasonably clear that you are not referring to practitioners of the religion, or perhaps "followers of the path" is a better expression, called Wicca. Witch clearly means different things to different people. It would be much easier for me to answer the question if I knew better what I was being asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:36 PM

Not to mention, knowing what harpgirl's intention is for asking the question. What I sussed out from reading the thread requesting songs about wicca(ns)/witches, was that the enlightened mental health counselor wanted to pick a fight with the people discussing the songs.

Do help us understand what the hades your motives are for starting this thread, won't you Self-Proclaimed Bad Witch of the South?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:39 PM

What is a good witch? What is a bad witch? How can you tell the difference? I thought I asked this in the first post....

What is the "religion?" How do you practice it? How is the religion different from white magic and black magic? Do witches do magic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:43 PM

I want some answers to my questions. Plus I am sure that if I get to chose I would rather be bad sometimes than to present myself as always good. How about you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:46 PM

Please define the word "witch".


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:51 PM

Isn't it obvious that I know way less about what this word means than you all do? I don't have a dictionary handy so I am totally unable to give you a definition beyond my childhood experience of understanding
, which parallels Clinton's definitions. Sorry...I was hoping someone elsae could actually define this word the way it is being used by everyone here. I'm rather unenlightened, contrary to what our really mean GUEST is saying about me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 02:54 PM

HG - you are contridicting yourself! You say your understanding of "witch" parallels Clinton's - then you make a statement such as "all witches are bad". conflict is major between those two statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:14 PM

Clinton said: The good witches dress in white, look pretty, and have a munchkin fetish... the bad witches dress in black, have green skin, and melt in water.... These are physical characteristics, and have nothing whatsoever to do with behavior patterns definable as "good" or "bad." Are you defaulting to Walt Disney's definitions? Do you mean the behaviors attributed to the men and women hanged in Salem Village as witches (and whose executions were condemned by Cotton Mather)?

My Webster provides the following definitions:
1. a woman supposedly having supernatural power by a compact with the devil or evil spirits; sorcerous.
2. (Obs.) a man with such power.
3. an ugly and ill-tempered old woman; hag
4. (Colloq.) a bewitching or fascinating woman or girl.

Personally, I can easily believe in Webster's numbers 3 and 4, and they can be either good or bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:14 PM

There are good Catholics & bad Catholics. Define Catholics.
Witches are people, some good, some bad.
Not all the good are good all the time.
Not all the bad are bad all the time.
Wiccans (what most folk regard as white witches) practise a religeon that is MUCH older than Christianity, and has done a darn site less harm.
If you wish to believe in any philosophy, look within yourself to see what YOU wish to worship - be it a god, nature, or mammon.
Then learn about others with similar views - and Hey Presto, there is your religeon!
Personally I worship ale, folk singing & dancing.
(but I have been known to drink lager, sing pop, and do the twist)


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:18 PM

ahem.

Wiccans practice a religion created during the 1800's based on practices that predate Christianity. The actual Wiccan religion as exists today did not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:28 PM

ahem.

Guest 03:18 PM. Most of the Protestant religions practiced today have their roots in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Does that make them suspect, or merely illegitimate in your view, because they aren't old enough to be a Real Religion (tm)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:41 PM

"I don't have a dictionary handy so I am totally unable to give you a definition beyond my childhood experience of understanding"

Yes, I'm sure that's true. After all, it is sooooo difficult for a college educated, computer literate person to find their way to the Merriam Website online dictionary...

"...which parallels Clinton's definitions..."

Thanks for sharing your definition. It seems the definition you are using is one of cartoon caricatures, then.

"I was hoping someone elsae could actually define this word the way it is being used by everyone here"

By everyone here? I don't think so. How about for argument sake, we limit the definition to your and Clinton's simplistic, bigoted cartoon caricature definition of a witch? Or shall we attempt a reasonable discussion, and use the perfectly good dictionary definition graciously provided above by artbrooks? Or a definition from a member of the Wiccan community itself? Silly me, that isn't the harpgirl style. You'd never be that reasonable. You much prefer attacking, mocking, and belittling people you don't like.

"I want some answers to my questions."

No you don't. You want to pick a fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:44 PM

And rudeness is soooooo helpful.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:58 PM

When you can't get a responsive answer to a question as stated, change the statement. Forget witches. Witches are airy-fairy and people are going to give you a hard time about that. Instead, look for the closest parallel you can find. See Maya Derin's book Divine Horsemen for a good parallel. In Voudou, the houngan is a herb doctor, counselor, and leads the services. He may be political or manipulative. He might become relatively rich. But if he does anything overtly evil his congregation will desert. A bokor has the same training but chooses to act alone, without a 'church' for personal power and influence. Does that help?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:08 PM

Your first posting on the other thread: There aren't any good witches. Anyone who claims otherwise is just plain wrong...hg

Seems as though you had an idea of what it meant to you at that point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:11 PM

I think that should read, "There aren't ANY witches... Anyone who claims otherwise is selling something, deluded, or both"

heh


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:16 PM

...nevermind folks...I can't be playful or serious but I'm not going to be cornered...fagedaboutit....byeee


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:19 PM

...oh and thinks misophist. I'll have to read the book to decipher just what you are sketching out, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 05:43 PM

My definition of a witch or wiccan is someone who has dicovered the meaning of life how we all fit into the tapestry.Good bad and magic dont really come in to it.Clinton seems to have his head screwed on right regarding this question and i agree with what he says..But I still think these people should be taken seriously as a movement for a better kinder world....


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 05:53 PM

The neo-pagan movement is very diverse. It is silly to paint them all with a broad brush, especially when the intent is to create cartoon images of them.

There is such incredible diversity among all peoples regarding belief systems about the divine, the supernatural, the elements of nature, and so on, that is quite disingenous to single out the neo-pagan movements, IMO. They aren't any more or less bizarre than people who believe in Freud or Stephen Hawking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM

We don't need to bash people just because they have a question and don't understand what they even mean by that question. How else are people to learn about what witches are?

Harpgirl, I've had experience with healers who were definitely people trying to do the best they could to help themselves and others with powers that some people say don't exist. I've also had the experience of people who call themselves witches who have tried to find a weakness in me that they could exploit in order to have a greater sense of their own importance and power. (The latter were usually male, but not always.)

So to me, a good witch is one to whom the power is a means (a way of doing something) and a gift from the Divine, not an end (a purpose in itself to be sought) and an innate ability to be used for whatever you want to use it for. In other words, a good witch is someone who balances power and responsibility carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,which ol' witch
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 06:31 PM

Everybody here is serious, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:34 PM

I'm not...BTW GUEST, I have Webster's at home here now and the number one definition is 1. a person, especially a woman who professes or is supposed to practice magic, especially black magic;sorceress.

According to Webster, what you describe Hesp is actually called a "witch-doctor." So I'm guessing that most of our self-professed witches are actually "witch-doctors."

Wicca is not in Webster's but I'm guessing that those who say they are WICCA practicing witches are practicing their religion. No comment on that. (no information)

Now, Kendall's definition is surely akin to number four in Webster's: a bewitching or charming woman!

No one has mentioned the definition of water dousing as a witchly activity.

(hg, in search of the truth!) LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:51 PM

I'm absolutely serious when I say that Merriam Webster Online takes seconds to use, even with my 31.2 modem speed. From them, I got this, in about an instant (sorry if this is too difficult for you to follow harpgirl)

One entry found for Wicca.


Main Entry: Wic·ca
Pronunciation: 'wi-k&
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Old English wicca wizard -- more at WITCH
Date: 1959
: a religion influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and practices of western Europe that affirms the existence of supernatural power (as magic) and of both male and female deities who inhere in nature, and that emphasizes ritual observance of seasonal and life cycles
- Wiccan /'wi-k&n/ adjective or noun

Of course, harpgirl wouldn't have had her shits and giggles in this thread, if she had simply looked up the word wicca in the dictionary. Hence my suggestion she had other motives and intentions when starting this thread than being enlightened by those more knowledgeable than herself on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:58 PM

but what do WICCA practitioners actually do, LR?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:03 AM

Pray, dance, sing, etc. Send good vibes and healing thoughts to other creatures. We just don't do it to Jesus, or Buddha, or any other human, god, goddess in particular. Most of us believe in the power of the Planet, Gaia, Mother Earth or something similar. Ceremonies of blessing, marriage, birth, death, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM

What do practitioners of the Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, and Hindu faiths, and all their offshoots, cults, etc. actually do?

They pray, chant, sing, dance, conduct rituals, read about and discuss their beliefs, pass laws and uphold traditions they believe reflect the will of their gods and goddesses, that sort of thing. Some, though not all, have requirements or expectations of practitioners doing community service of some sort, or at the very least, engaging in what the church fathers of their particular faith deem to be meaningful work. Curses and blessings are just different sides of the same coin in most traditional cultures, including Christian ones, so I don't think wiccans and witches have the market cornered on that.

So the simple, short answer is, wiccans do what practitioners of other religions do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:31 AM

Wicca and other forms of paganism are just a lot more up to the individual than formal, mainstream organized religions. Nobody tells us what we have to do, believe, what rituals are acceptable, etc. A lot of it it nature and female oriented.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Fred Miller
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:38 AM

I thought Do no harm was part of the hippocratic thing with medical doctors.

I don't know about witches. I bought some powder and a candle from a self-proclaimed good one in New Orleans once, my parents didn't mind, I was eight or so. It's easy to make fun of witches as a topic, but the ways we understand the sensible empirical things we know are also going to seem ridiculous soon, if history means anything at all. Our good witches wear white lab coats. They've got promising new truth every few days, but haven't cracked any big items lately. Old diseases are piling up, new ones popping up everywhere. And the best ideas seem to be make money to spend money, live by rules, and count the minutes. Whee!

Every member of my immediate family has been slated for invasive surgeries it turned out they didn't need. At all. Some of the surgeries would've been utterly disfiguring, some of the family members, more than once mis-diagnosed.

I believe in a few odd things. Thinking about something seems to make it more likely to happen. When you travel you meet the people you want to meet in any town, when you live there, they live across the street and you never do. The only thing that endures for me about my childhood interest in witches is that books about them were the only place to see pictures of ordinary naked women. That still means something to me, somehow.

I guess you tell something good from something bad by whatever you think you know. The bad witch these days is often merely an educated idiot, with the power to do harm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:02 AM

Another good place to look something up is at www.encyclopedia.com.

Here is that website's entry for witchcraft:

witchcraft   
Related: Miscellaneous Religions

a form of sorcery, or the magical manipulation of nature for self-aggrandizement, or for the benefit or harm of a client. This manipulation often involves the use of spirit-helpers, or familiars.    Public uses of magic are generally considered beneficial; sorcery, on the other hand, is commonly practiced in private and is usually considered malevolent. Nevertheless, accusations of sorcery are frequently public and explicit. Anthropologists have observed that in societies that lack formal political processes, sorcery accusations are often an indication of other social and economic tensions and conflicts. They have analyzed the killing of accused sorcerers as a form of control through which antisocial people are eliminated and social cohesion is reinforced. Anthropologists distinguish sorcerers, who acquire their powers through study and initiation, from witches, who inherit their powers. In some cultures, especially European, however, the two terms are used interchangeably.

    European diabolical witchcraft was a form of sorcery that appealed to pre-Christian symbolism and was associated by Church leaders with heresy. The origins of witchcraft in Europe are found in the pre-Christian, pagan cults such as the Teutonic nature cults; Roman religion; and the speculations of the Gnostics (see Gnosticism ), the Zoroastrians, and the Manicheans. These religions and philosophies believed in a power of evil and a power of good within the universe. Later, among certain sects, the worship of good was repudiated as false and misleading.

    Religious persecution of supposed witches commenced early in the 14th cent. Trials, convictions, and executions became common throughout Europe and reached a peak during the 16th and 17th cent. Under the authority of the Spanish Inquisition, as many as 100 persons were burned as witches in a single day. The auto-da-fé, as this mass burning was called, took on the qualities of a carnival, where one could buy souvenirs, rosaries, holy images, and food. Suspicion also fell on many who were interested in scientific experimentation. The colonies of North America shared in this fanaticism, particularly in Salem, Mass., where in 1692, 20 persons were executed as witches. (The state exonerated all the accused men and women in 1711.)

    Early students of European diabolical witchcraft viewed it alternately as an invention of elites who used accusations of sorcery as an excuse to persecute people for material gain, or as a survival of pre-Christian folk religion. Scholars today seek to interpret it not as a single phenomenon but rather as a complex pattern of beliefs and practices that have been used in different ways at different times. Thus, during the Hundred Year Wars, Catholics and Protestants accused each other of witchcraft.

    In the 20th cent. there has been a revival of witchcraft known as Wicca, or neopaganism. This form of witchcraft has nothing to do with sorcery, and is instead based on a reverence for nature, the worship of a fertility goddess, a restrained hedonism, and group magic aimed at healing. It rejects a belief in Satan as a product of Christian doctrine that is incompatible with paganism.

    See also shaman .



Bibliography: See J. B. Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages (1972); P. Boyer and S. Nissenbaum, Salem Possessed (1974); J. P. Demos, Entertaining Satan (1982); C. Larner, Witchcraft and Religion (1984); S. C. Lehmann and J. E. Myers, Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion (1985); R. E. Guiley, The Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft (1989); R. Briggs, Witches and Neighbors (1996); L. W. Carlson, A Fever in Salem (1999).



Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, Copyright (c) 2003.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 02:55 AM

This thread is just turning into a witch hunt.
There, I said it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 03:30 AM

I like your style GUEST - shedding a little light in the darkness. (BTW Many scriptural references to those who shun the light and prefer darkness.)



Random House Dictionary of the English Language - Unabridged Jess Stein Editor, New York, 1973, p.1632



wick-ed (wik'id) 1. evil or morally bad in principle or practice: sinful: vicious: iniquitios: wicked people: Wicked habits. 2.   mischievous or playfully malicious: These wicked kitten upset everything. 3.   distressinly severe as a storm, wound, or colf: This has been a wicked winter. 4. unjustifiiable: dreadful: beastly: wicked prices; a wicked exam. 5. ill-natured vicious: troublesome or dangerous: wicked roads 7. unpleasant: foul; a wicked odor 8. Slang excellent; masterly; He plays a wicked trumpet. He's a wicked man on bass. [ M.E. wiked, equiv. to wikke bad (OE wicca wizard, used as adj.) + ed (-ede -ed) See WITCH



-SYN - unrightous, ungodly, godless, impious, profane, blasphemous; unprincipled; immoral, corrupt, depraved, dissolute; heinous; infamous; amoral, vile, flagitious, atrocious, villaninous.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle



It is nice to find the kitty's tail has been caught, pinched, and she is not stopping my postings at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 04:11 AM

Gargoyle, is your obsession no better yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 04:18 AM

Magic (witchcraft) is colourless...so there isn't a black witch or a white witch. It is the intent behind what you are doing that makes it good or bad. Im what you could a witch but practice a more traditional side of Witchcraft which means I am not strictly Wiccan....If you want to know more PM of if you are in London UK come and speak to me and my friends and family and we will be happy to answer your curisoities. Come to Pagan Events and ask people about it all and the various traditions within Paganism and Witchcraft you will be suprised how friendly we all really are.

Oh.....and I don't ride a broomstick.....I ride a dyson!!!*BG*


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM

A good witch is someone who helps people using knowledge gained from experience handed down through many generations (kinda like folk music). As a lot of this knowledge is not known by ordinary folks it was/is considered mystical or magical.

A single example will suffice, the wise ones, witches, healers, or whatever you like to call them were using mouldy bread to cure infections many hundreds of years before Alexander Fleming 'discovered' penicillin.

Because, long ago, this kind of knowledge was not known or accepted by those in power in Europe, namely The Christian Church. The Church had to get rid of these people who were a threat to THEIR knowledge which they were foisting on the ordinary people. SO, they said that these wise ones were bad and that their knowledge was the work of the devil, and they killed them because they were BAD WITCHES.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 09:23 AM

Harpgirl I just thought that with all the talk about witches around here, some of these witches and witch sympathsizers would have something reasonably enlightening to say about the differences.

Okay, I'll try.

People who pray and meditate through the practice of witchcraft are called "Witches." Real witchcraft is a form of prayer and meditation more than anything else. It helps the practicitioner focus his or her mind on a goal, while opening the imagination to the Divine pressence. It has little or nothing to do with fictional witchcraft -- real witches can't turn people into frogs, or children into gingerbread people, or clean the house by wiggling their noses. Real witches are also mortal, and not a seperate, or immortal, subspecies of human. One reason your question might have drawn the ire of some Mudcatters is that the very question itself implies that witches are seperate from the rest of humanity (you may not have meant it that way, but if people interpret it that way, that's enough to provoke the raising of a few hackles).

Many witches follow some form of Pagan, or Neo-Pagan, faith -- in other words, one that sees the Divine as revealed through the natural world rather than through scripture (many of these faiths are polythesitic, but not all). Some witches, however consider themselves Christian, or Jewish, for that matter.

In other words, witches are simply humans who pray and meditate in a certain way.   Like all humans, there is a little good and bad in them all. Telling a good witch from a bad witch is as simple and tricky as telling a good person from a bad person.

I hope this has been of some help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:12 PM

There are two (at least) different defintiions of "witch"; the first is a Christian-testament sort of definiton, which matches the earlier reference (woman using powers from an agreement with Satan). Evil by definition, or at least fallen. Good way to marginalize a whole section of society.

The second definition, used by Wiccans, is simply a woman who learns natural but obscure powers. Wiccans do not see themselves as satanic because the aspire to claim a culture that goes preChristian. Nor do they see themselves allied with evil.

SInce the notion of "good witches and bad witches" was popularized (Wizard of Oz) I suppose they must use a generalized definiton. If you use the Christian definition, Harpgirl was correct in her original post -- labeling something or someone a witch means a satanic quality. By definition.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:32 PM

Pagans and the many denominations of Paganism do not believe in the devil. The devil simply does not exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:44 PM

RIght. My point exactly -- to a pagan there can be good or bad witches, since badness surely exists even though Satan does not. To a Christian the word is reserved to connotate evil -- it is therefore a different territorybeing mapped to by the same symbol. Always a good source of confusion.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM

The second definition, used by Wiccans, is simply a woman who learns natural but obscure powers. Not just women, Amos.

By the old patriarchal and fundementalist Christian meaning, anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs could be and has been labeled a witch and/or pagan. It was and is just another way of trying to "lord" it over anyone who thinks for themself. In the burning times it was often "uppity" women who were accused and murdered, often because they owned property which someone envied and desired for themselves. They were also wise-women in the way of herbs and childbirth. When men started co-opting those realms the women became threats to their livelihood and were best kept out of the way through accusation, torture and murder.

I know plenty of Christians who reject such a definition. In fact there is an Episcopal priest in Wyoming who didn't miss a beat when he greeted me and said he hoped to see me in church on Sundays and I said since I considered myself pagan he probably wouldn't, to which he promptly replied pagans were welcome, too.

Lots of words have changed in meaning over the years...this is one that is slowly changing for the better, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 11:17 PM

Random House - seems pretty close to the Oxford English definition little Chattering Chetah - you may choose to call yourself what you may...but a non-gardener is still in adoration of weeds....while the rest of society considers it sloth....a spinner of tales and promises is an invalid to some...and lier to others.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 12:01 AM

"Weeds" are beautiful!!

Long may this Earth be blessed with bio-diversity!!!

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 02:03 AM

CapriUni, Wot you again. It's a good job I'm happily married or I'd be after you. ;-)

I just love weeds - sorry wild flowers. Dandelions (pissabeds) are my favourites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 02:06 AM

Hey Garg ol' buddy, how're ya doin?

If yer ain't got the balls to call Max and fix you're membership, drop me a line at alberthansell@yahoo.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: JennyO
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 03:47 AM

CatsPHiddle has said it well. A witch's intent generally is to do good, for other beings and for the healing of the planet - "Do as you will but harm none".

I personally believe that everything is alive in some way, that we are all part of the whole of what is, and therefore connected, and so I try to treat all things and beings with respect, as whatever I harm will in some way harm me. We (witches) have a generally accepted idea that whatever harm we do will return to us "three times three" - like the law of karma - so it is obviously not in our own interest to do harm or wish harm on anybody.

The idea of good witches or bad witches in this context is obviously not relevant. If an misguided individual is trying to use their power to effect change in a harmful way, or to have power over other people, they are missing the point, and will not do well themselves.

The devil as such has no place in this view, either. There is simply what is, which we are a part of, and any of us has the potential to tap into this collective energy, and use it for good or harm. Since I believe that whatever I do to others I do to myself, I choose to do good. Of course, I don't always get it right, because I am only human, but the intent is there.

Coming as I did from a strict Methodist family, I hated the feeling I was given that being a human being with faults meant I was a sinner and needed to be "saved", and God was some sort of stern father figure "up there" (unfortunately that is often the impression given in so-called Christian churches). I felt very disconnected for a long time, when I was growing up.

I never bought into the sinner idea at all however, in spite of my years of conditioning, and I always felt a strong connection with nature, so I was delighted to discover paganism and modern Wicca many years later. It just gave what I already felt was true, a name. I like it because it is not judgmental. The only laws are the laws of nature - the laws of cause and effect. That is probably why it all seems so diverse and disorganized to non-pagans. We are not into telling people what to do.

Since then I have discovered in many ways just how much of a difference one can make with the right intent - just look at the collective healing powers of Mudcatters when they put their minds to it!

There is a lot more, but that's a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 09:13 AM

Bert: I just love weeds - sorry wild flowers. Dandelions (pissabeds) are my favourites.

Yay!! We should start a Dandelion brigage (Or I could at least start a Dandelion Thread)!

Gargoyle: ....a spinner of tales and promises is an invalid to some...and lier to others.

And a healer and bringer of joy to still others.

Ann ~ Despiser of herbicides and golf course lawns, and proud spinner (and listener) of tales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 10:26 AM

Thanks, CU and Bert! I love dandelions, too. Used to make tincture from them. Our neighbours used to call our house "Dandelion Row."

Bert, fwiw, the membership is fixed and available; apparently the choice is not to use it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM

An awful (root AWE - FULL - full of awe) lot of things in your life Linx-Ludicrous.... are in the used to make/do

Are you lacking the time, the dandelions, the motivation - or was it REALLY not THAT good the first time?

Eagarly waiting your reply...

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:12 AM

Too bad Abby decided to check out of this thread. She finally got some answers. Oh well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:25 AM

Too bad Abby decided to check out of this thread.

Well, maybe she's lurking....   Hmmm... Should someone PM her?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:28 AM

"Wicca and other forms of paganism are just a lot more up to the individual than formal, mainstream organized religions. Nobody tells us what we have to do, believe, what rituals are acceptable, etc. A lot of it it nature and female oriented."

Unfortunately, Sorchadear, that is not exactly true...I know plenty of folks who have had the rede shoved in there face, telling them they have done wrong...just like I knoe plenty of Christains who have had the bible shoved in their face....

Luckily there is no good...nor is there any evil....also I guess it is just as well that I have no religion to cling to....not even atheism...


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:32 AM

as for abby...she was just trying to cause trouble...


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:39 AM

I can't tell which is which ......


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Bryn
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:08 AM

Witches fall into several categories.
1) Those who are practising something handed down through their family (this does exist).
2) Wicans, who really speaking are slightly different and follow a path of witchcraft laid out in the early twentieth century by gerald Gardner or Alex Sanders.
3) Wicca inspired witches, who follow the principles of Sanders and/or Gardiner but who have not been initiated into a coven in this tradition.

yes, many witches do work in groups that they call covens. Many also work alone. there are few hard and fast defenitions I'm afraid, for every witch there's a slightly different way of doing and being it.

It might be helpful to add that for many, Wicca or witchcraft is considered to be a path within Paganism, which also includes Druidry, Heathenry, Shamanism and the like. Generally speaking these are beliefs and practises derived from the ancient nature religions of the world. Pagans are no more good or evil than anyone else when you get down to it - its a set of philosophies, for some there's significant festivals.For some its about a very positive ethos of self discovery within a repsonsible context, for some it is intensely ecological, for some its jsut about personal growth. Some perform rituals, some don't, some explore the way in which will acts upon relaity (call it magic, call it prayer, call it positive thinknig, as you see fit.)

Many Pagan groups online spend long hours trying to come up with working defenitions of what these terms mean, I don't think we are going to achieve much on a list where a significant number of posters have no knowledge or expereince of the subject.

Unfortunatly, what you tend to see in the press and in public are the few more eccentric types who like to get in front of the cameras, and this, as with most communities, is seldom a good illustration of the whole. I would recomend that anyone genuinely interested in further information pays a visit to www.paganfederation.org


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Alba
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM

Nice choices on the Music thread too Bryn. Blessed Be.

Kat, I use Dandelions in Salads and to make Tea and Wine, although I haven't made Wine for a few years now. The tincture you make, can it be used in the Bath as a relief for Rheumatics?
As for the term Non-Gardener, that's quite a good description of someone that does not try control Nature but who Harvests Her Bounty. I like that:>)
Ah but Spinners of Tales, were would I be without the Folk's with that particular Gift. Were it not for them I would only be able to stretch my Mind as far as I could take it, Word Weavers take those thoughts of mine and expand them and more often than not They open my eyes to the things I had never dreamed of. A truly Magical Gift.
There's a song in that name "Dandelion Row" though!:>)
JD


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 08:16 AM

...back from walking the beaver dam and soaking in whitey's spring. Glad you all decided to share what you know about the many aspects of "witchery." love, harpgirl


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Green Man
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:27 AM

My Wife is a Wiccan, I just don't hold with the rule of three. I see it in the same light as all of the 'thou shalt not's' contained in the dogma of another well known religion.

Witches come in all shades and sizes, I have known some malevolent ones, however it is written 'beat those arond you with a stick and some one will beat you with a stick' here is the rule of three simplified.

I know some very 'good' witches, and they're just ordinary people getting by and helping others in their own way.

Who is to say that because the old religion predates the better advertised ones that it contains any more truth?

This I think is a question that, when you find the answer to we will see you on May hill at dawn dancing in the summer or at one of the other seasonal festivals or rituals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Mathew Hopkins
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM

Burn em, burn all !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Mathew Hopkins
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:15 PM

Or Drown em.
Drownings good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,bryn
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:02 AM

Matthew Hopkins - you aren't the Matthew Hopkins I went to school with are you (some parents are cruel!)or are you the man himself re-incarnated - you realise of course that if you are claiming to be the reincarnation of MH, you probably ought to start by hanging/burning/drowning yourself for blatantly being the devils handywork? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Green Man
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:50 AM

Is that the Mathew Hopkins who USED the Hammer of Witches

The same torture manual that the current pope apologised for.?

I always thought Vincent Price did hime really well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:49 AM

hg and others,this may help to clarify at least one of the questions above about Wicca Try here


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Mathew Hopkins
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:00 AM

Thank you brother for reporting that nest of satanic evildoers.
Even the colonies have succumbed to the Devils temptations.
Nathaniel!!
Saddle my horse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:24 PM

That shaggy old bugger named Micca
Retired as a horse-apple pickah,
And now spends his time
Dispensing weak rhyme
And historical tracts about Wicca!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:31 PM

That Grizzled old bugger called Amos
tracks songs like an old fashioned Shamus
while sat on his pooter
close by his Computer
and drinking iced tea from a Thermos


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:36 PM

Wiccan talk we don't want to inhibit
From websites and books one can crib it
But Amos replied
"It comes from inside"
and the rest of his message read………." Ribbit"


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:47 PM

'ere, 'ere -- d'ye take me for some sort of Frog?? (No, no -- really--try it!! I really AM a prince!! You'll see....)...LOL!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:45 PM

Amos my dear.....could this Witch kiss the frog!!! LOL!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:05 AM

Some of my best friends are witches. They are very nice, very sensible people. My problem with Wicca is that so many of them are such amazing flakes. If someone is planning on going to a Wiccan gathering, I always warn them to be careful of bad checks and late night phone calls.
My sister, who is Wiccan attended a gathering lead by a male with a stomach "large enough to be introduced by name". He was wearing a small length of plaid fabric.   She had a hard time keeping a straight face. No one ever talks about the silly side of Wicca. I rather wish they would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Gereg
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:28 PM

It seems as though this ought to have been posted here rather than on the "music" discussion.

...So okay, I've read quite a few of the messages now, and I have to say - both to those who term themselves witches and to those who insist that nobody today is a witch - the following: the use of the term 'witch' by modern Goddess-worshippers doesn't, in all probability, bear much resemblance to its use historically. We simply don't have reliable records to support or refute the idea definitely (although the records we do have tend to refute more than support the current usage by modern pagans). But it's a fairly harmless instance of reclaiming an ugly old term, just as hippies took to calling themselves 'freaks' in the late '60s. To those who want to insist that modern pagans aren't real witches, I'd like to point out that Yeshua (usually called 'Jesus') would likely have a bit of trouble recognising the religious practises of most of the people today calling themselves Christians. Like most swords, that business can cut both ways. Just for example, Yeshua is said to have enjoined his followers not to judge others... and it seems to me I've noticed a fair bit of judgemental language in this thread. On both sides of the pentagram, I might add.

And to add a bit of my own judgement to the mix, it particularly seems to me that this Clinton Hammond fellow ought to submit his own religious beliefs for the mockery to which he has subjected the beliefs of others. A disagreement with another's beliefs, or even with their terminology, does not justify this kind of abuse. What kind of fantasies do your beliefs consist of, Clinton?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:04 PM

lol, cat, I was about to say something similar to Amos!

LadyJean - yeah, the best part of ritual is the stuff that goes wrong... I hit my wand on the ceiling more than once in my teensy basement apartment! Once I was doing a healing ritual with a friend, and we BOTH hit our wands on the ceiling at the same time. We both burst out laughing... Then there was the one time I knocked a candle over as I was trying to extinguish it, and it extinguished itself on the way down, merely leaving a tiny blob of wax on the carpet. (Funny thing was, those spells worked better than anything that went off perfectly. All that laughing probably made it work better!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bert
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:24 PM

That is a good link Micca, They seem to be nice people don't they.

LadyJean you say... 'so many of them are such amazing flakes.' That makes them sound like Mudcatters to me.

And Hesperis, you're right, laughter is a powerful healer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:49 PM

Beware of Micca and Amos,
Their knowledge of witches is in-famous.
But perhaps they had oughter,
Read more Harry Potter,
Then their erudition will shame us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 05:59 AM

The loin the Wicca and the Weird robe?
PP


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 08:59 AM

Well, art, Harry Potter and Buffy
"While we hope that we don't appear to be stuffy"
Are fiction and Thus
Are not worth a Cuss
making Wicca for Bunnys that're Fluffy

And Wicca is NOT Fluffy Bunny
Nor to be exploited for money
Some ones of the Craft
Like to appear daft
Its just their strange way of being "Funny"

Their approach to their spirituality
Is guided by a stricter morality
The Rede and the Rules
Guides both wise and fools
And effects of result and causality

Outside views they don't mean a lot
Considerably less than a Jot
If asked to arrange
A light bulb to change
Your witch will reply " Into What???"


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:29 AM

BRAVO, Micca!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:44 AM

Harpgirl:

I assume "walking the beaver dam" is some sort of slang for a personal commitment to abstinence?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 12:23 PM

No Amos. I meant walking on top of a beaver dam. It's a bit tricky and is muddy and slippery! We drain the pond during the day so it doesn't flood any more trees and Bucky comes at night and patches it up. Bucky is winning. But when the aligator gets bigger Bucky will probably disappear.

But your idea is a clever one, as usual!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 12:33 PM

This is for Gereg, who might be new to our community.

Clinton is as Clinton is. We know him and like him for his irreverance and generally poking fun at anything we take seriously. We are all pretty predictable. I am known for stirring up trouble! I like dialectics! I'm also known for disliking organized religion. I do attend Episcopal church, however. I give my money to the single mother fund at St. Marks in PBG. I suppose if the Wiccans convinced me they needed money for a good cause, I might give them some!

We do have a lot of self-proclaimed witches, just none that admit to being bad or doing black magic! I liked your remarks, by the way.

Of course, the real secret here is that I got rambunctious just to provide Rick Fielding with an amusing distraction since he didn't want any polaroids! hahahah Love, harpgirl


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Bryn
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 04:46 AM

More observations. Harpgirl, rare is the pagan who views what they do as 'bad' - and its hard to define. Is bad selfish? Peiple re selfish. Most pagans I know tend to try and act for the good of all where tey can and few managed it cos we're just as flawed as anyone else. That said, do know of some pagans who will happily admit to walking the darker paths. The thing is this - pagans don't see the dark half of the wheel - death, decay, destruction etc as inehrrently evil - they are necessary to life, we honour them and when needs be, we invoke them. Part of the problem with the questions you are asking is that they use terms that make no sense in the context. Pagans don't tend to describe themselves as good or bad (only the daft ones). If the question is 'are there pagans who use magic purely to be evil?' I think the answer is no, you don't get disney style villans, you do get self interested individuals whose motives might not be as pure as the driven snow, but that's people for you. I can tell you now that your chances of getting any Pagan to post specifically about their beleifs and practises are small, I know I have no intention of telling you what I do in that vein, and I would be very surprised if anyone else Pagan on this list would be inclined to go into detail - it's not ebcause we're necessarily doing anything you might find disturbing, it is mroe that these are private and intimate thnigs, not to be shared casually.

As for why we don't talk about the silly side of wicca - it goes like this. All the people who are serious about what they do, who study arcane knowledge and work hard at their rituals etc find that sort of thing deeply embarassing. All the people who like running round in public in robes, pretending to be Klingons, cursing Harry potter, wearing robes that look like dressing gowns and nighties, giving themselve insane titles etc have never considered the possibility that they might in fact be rather silly, so they don't tend to talk about it either. But if we want to name and shame, can I sugegst visiting the website of Kevin Carlyon, the living incarnation of 'the silly side of Wicca' - a websearch for his anme will provide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 11:10 AM

Although I don't consider myself pagan or Wiccan or Klingon, I do know that many pagans and non-pagans alike appreciate the writings of Starhawk, who has made quite a serious attempt at legitimizing her profession. I can't quite remember which profession she professes to be practicing--wiccan priestess, goddess priestess or something along those lines I think. Someone here will undoubtedly know what profession she claims and works to educate people about. She is also a fairly well known California political activist, although I have no idea how other political activists view her in terms of competency and effectiveness as an activist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Nemesis
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:01 PM

Anyone in Sussex area on first Friday of September

"Walking the Witch" are playing, with Joe Bazouki of the Missing Puddings fame ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:46 PM

there is no black and white, HG....there is nor good or evil....


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:54 PM

When I see the pictures, I think a harpy is scarier than a witch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Dipsodeb
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 06:00 AM

whereabouts in Sussex?, excellent band.
Nothing to do with witches though apart from the name, they got it from a Kate bush song....


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:05 PM

Hi Dipsodeb .. it's in Worthing .. thanks for the info on the name .. they've sent me all the biog blurb and not mentioned how they got the name!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Peg
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 11:37 PM

The idea of "good" or "bad" seems to me to refer to behavior or actions. Modern witches (some refer to themselves as neo-pagans or Wiccans) generally speaking   are as morally upright as anyone else. Codes of conduct regarding magical use are usually more strict   and proscribed than, say, those of Christians who liberally "pray" for others (which is what magic amounts to in many instances.

There is some knee-jerk adherence to "the Wiccan Rede" (An it harm   none, do what ye will; Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; love is the law, love under will--all this is paraphrased from Crowley) but if one were to ask a modern satanist about their moral code it would sound remarkably similar. But then, what actual satanists do, as opposed to what the Hollywood or media version suggests, is not familiar to the average layperson (who also might think anyone referring to themselves as a Witch in this day and age might as well be playing Dungeons and Dragons or other fantasy games 24-7).

Witchcraft and paganism, in the contemporary sense, are ways of describing a belief system and lifestyle. Some call it religion. It is diverse and often eclectic. Some practice alone, some in groups. Some worship gods and goddesses, others don't. Some revere nature as sacred; some are just as happy never to be outdoors among dirt and yucky bugs. Some do spells and magic and ritual; others don't. What seems important to remember is that it is a fast-growing movement; that few people who become witches or pagans move on to other spiritual paths; that interest in paganisms and earth-based spirituality are the result of a shift in paradigm (male to female, some say) that honors nature and cooperation and peace over industry and plunder and annihilation. Contemporary paganism has gone from being a fringe diversion to a legally-recognized religion that is increasingly studied in academic contexts for its   sociological, spiritual and other implications.

Blessed be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Mystie012
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:11 PM

Hollywood has done so much damage to the image of the beautiful Wiccans. Generations of children have grown up believing that witches are ugly old people when the exact opposite is true. They are beautiful, healthy women of Nature.
Why do we even have to ask if witches are good or bad? Hollywood. And vilification by the patriachal christian church with their evil inquisitors.
A more accurate subject would be "Priests! Good and Bad"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:14 PM

Show me a good one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:44 PM

Witches got a bad rap from the Catholic church which didn't like the competition.
I know some witches and they are decent folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: number 6
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM

Richard Bridge asks ... "show me a good one"

here's a good witch

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:47 PM

And another good witch fer ya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:47 PM

Dadgum. I shoulda added '100' to that last post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:26 PM

I prefer Timex, tell ya the truth. They are inexpensive and they also keep good time. I'd likely want a Rolex were I to be space travelling, but for normal every-day 'could you tell me the time' kinda stuff, Timex is the one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:19 AM

I meant a good priest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:29 AM

Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil-
An it harm none, do what ye will.

So mote it be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:33 AM

Why does the 'rede' use archaic King James-style English when it was written in the 20th century?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:04 AM

Oh, how completely coincidental!
A brand new mystery guest has resurrected an old debate about witches, right after a brand new member creates one on Bible prophesy.
Must surely be a 'Sign' of something..


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: olddude
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:52 AM

a thread that resurfaced to pit good people against good people. to my pagan friends ... blessing to all of you


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:09 AM

In Nigeria and the Congo, the torturing and murder of child witches is on the rise. All it takes is for someone to accuse and a child can be driven from his home, have nails driven into his head or be set afire to drive out the evil spirits. It seems incredible but there have been recent cases in ther States as well involving immigrants from the Caribbean.
Unusual birthmarks, misbehaving, epilepsy - all proof of witchcraft.
GOOGLE child witches for more info.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:01 AM

Having just read the recently refreshed Monty Python quote thread, all I can think of to contribute is...

She turned me into a newt!






I got better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:37 AM

An it harm none, do what ye will.

Crowley-lite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:26 PM

Is that like Kendall saying "...as long as it doesn't scare the horses."?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM

There are children abused and murdered in the UK as well under the pretense of exorcising demons. The abuse and murder of 8 year old Victoria Climbie set the "Every Child Matters" wheel in motion.

What little I have been exposed to of Wicca (my younger daughter was practising for a short time) seems good.

I still want the bumper sticker that says

"Walk The Paths Of The Ancients" and "My other car is a broom"


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:34 PM

I don't quite know why Gardner ever spoke of Wicca as 'witchcraft'. Modern Wicca is a syncretic modern Nature revering religion in it's own right, and has more to do with Masonic ritual structure and indeed Crowley's visionary materials (as SO'P comments imply) than any nightmarish fantasy, that the Mediaeval Church generated from it's guilt consumed fanatical repression of all things natural - and natural consequent collective psychosis - as "witchcraft".

Yes, there were (and are in all cultures) folk magical practices usually focused upon the basics of life (love, sex, hurting people, healing people, protecting people, fertility... etc.). But the cunning folk who provided such lay services to the community, would have considered themselves Christian. And along with knowledge of simples and traditional folklore pertaining to talismanic natural objects - as well as likely experiential knowledge of hallucinogens, they very often called upon the various powers of the Christian Saints to intervene on their customers behalf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Diva
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:56 PM

Virginia T.....read what Sins said.......it is part of that culture...sadly......


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:02 PM

Ahh, as to practices outside the UK.
I don't know if this is 'witchcraft' in the same terms as the Western Christian fantasy.. But I did speak to a woman who left South Africa in large part, because of the danger some years ago to young blond male children from some 'witch-doctors' who considered the genitals of same, to be very magically potent ..and thus worth murdering blue-eyed blond male children for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM

Why do Pagans wear Black?


Because they don't make anything darker.......Yet!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Captain Pugwash
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM

I like witches, they're cool.

There are good and bad people so it follows there are good and bad witches, right? You would have to get to know them to really find out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:08 PM

The answer is yes, same as any other group of people. I've always found it amusing to substitute some other group in a question like this one, just to see how it hold up. Lithuanians or Persbyterians as substitutes usually bring on a chuckle, or stop the questioner in their tracks, at least in my neighborhood (not many of either, I guess, so they sound exotic.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

ana:l nathrakh, u:rth va:s bethud, dokhje:l djenve:

just a friendly curse

have a nice day


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM

Is it true that Witches believe that God and nature are one and the same? If so, then I'm a witch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

""YES!""

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:53 PM

Civilisation and education enable us to rise above our nature and even nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:39 PM

And when they enable us to live without lawyers, Richard, I'll believe you...


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 05:14 PM

"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is wht we are put on this earth to rise above."
Katherine Hepburn. The African Queen.


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